Ep 726 ｜ 'The Chosen：' Questions & Controversies ｜ Guest： Dallas Jenkins
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Summary
The Chosen is a wildly popular show about the life of Jesus Christ. It s received a lot of praise as well as its fair share of criticism. And here to discuss all of those things is the creator of the show, Dallas Jenkins. We ll talk about his life, his story, what led him to create The Chosen, and some of the pushback that the show has received, including the controversy surrounding his comments about Mormonism and Jesus.
Transcript
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The Chosen is a wildly popular show about the life of Jesus Christ. It's received a lot of
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praise as well as its fair share of criticism. And here to discuss all of those things is the
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creator of the show, Dallas Jenkins. We will talk about his life, his story, what led him
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to create The Chosen. And we will also talk about some of the pushback that the show has received,
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including the controversy surrounding his comments about Mormonism and Jesus. It's a
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great conversation. I know that you're going to love it. This episode is brought to you by our
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friends at Good Ranchers. Go to goodranchers.com. Use code Allie at checkout for a discount. That's
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goodranchers.com, code Allie. Dallas, thanks so much for joining us.
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Yes. So many people out there love The Chosen. A lot of people have questions for you
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about The Chosen. Let's first back up before even you started this series. I know a lot of people
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probably know your story, but if you could just give us a little summary of how you got into the
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Christian media biz. Well, my father is Jerry Jenkins. He wrote the Left Behind books. And so
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those were huge. They're still pretty big. But back in the day, about 25 years ago,
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they were pretty huge. And there was a movie being developed based on the first Left Behind book
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when I was in college. And I had been wanting to get into film in some way. I mean, I remember seeing
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the movie One Flew of the Cuckoo's Nest when I was in high school. And that movie changed my life. I
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was like, whatever that is, I want to do that. I want to make movies.
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What was it about it? What was it about that movie?
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Well, there was a scene. I was watching it in my home. It was on TV. And there's a scene where
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Jack Nicholson's character is not allowed to watch TV. He wanted to watch the World Series game. And
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Nurse Ratched says, you can't watch it. So he goes and sits in front of a television and pretends,
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he starts broadcasting a fake World Series game.
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And the other inmates start listening to him and getting excited. And he starts yelling and
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talking about this home run just hit. And he's like a broadcaster. And they start cheering. And
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I'm literally just sitting there. There's like tears streaming down my face. And I am so excited.
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And I'm like, I want to do that. I want to inspire in people the kind of reaction that I'm having.
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That's kind of emotional response to something. And so that's when I was like,
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I and what's funny is, I think at the time, I was wanting to be a sports broadcaster.
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So that I think that had something to do with it to the scene. So I wanted to make movies. And
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so my thought was, well, as a as a young guy growing up, I, I grew up, I grew up in the faith
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and as a Christian, but I love TV and movies. But there wasn't anything that represented my faith
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that I liked as much as the normal TV and movies that I would watch. Like all the stuff, there was
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a Christian movie that came out, it wasn't any good. So I didn't know what kind of movies I
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necessarily wanted to make. But I knew I wanted to get into that in some way. And I thought be good
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to represent my stories in some way stories of faith. And I remember there was a moment in,
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I think it was around 20, 2007 or so, I was mowing the lawn. And I felt like God just like put it
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really strongly on my heart. Because I was kind of bad mouthing slash apologizing for faith based
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films. Like, I don't really want to do that because they're so bad. And God was like, my people
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deserve good stuff, too. You know, so why don't you just make it better? And so just talking about
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how bad it is. Yeah, exactly. And so, or instead of, I think sometimes we get into this perspective
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of trying to be cool. You know, like, well, I don't want to be, like, even when you use the term
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Christian media, I was like, my instinct was like, well, I wouldn't call it Christian media. Just do
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media and it happens to have faith in it. And sometimes I get, you get defensive of that. And
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I'm trying to get rid of that and just go, look, I'm doing a show called The Chosen. It's about
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Jesus by definition. That's Christian. So I got more comfortable with it. But long story
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short, I just really, I think it was about 15 years ago where I thought, look, I have
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something I think unique to say that most filmmakers are looking for something unique to say. And
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even studios are looking for filmmakers who have unique things to say. And I thought, if I'm
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just trying to be a normal filmmaker, you know, there's many people who can do that. What is it
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that I, what is unique about what I have to say or what I can bring to the table or what God may
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want me to share? And so I embraced that. I became okay with that, with, with, with, all right,
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I want to tell stories that reflect God. And that, that's, that's when I shifted probably again,
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about 15 years ago to start starting really focusing on stories that were uniquely about
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the relationship God wants to have with, with, with humanity.
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It is interesting that a lot of Christians, I mean, myself included sometimes, on the one hand,
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you complain about secular media and the values that it's promoting and how it's promoting degeneracy
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and all of that. But at the same time, then you complain about the Christian media or however you
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want to describe it. That's, it might be promoting the values that you like, but it's not entertaining
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or you think it's lame or the acting is bad or something like that. And so you kind of decided,
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you know what, I'm not going to sit in either camp. God has given me these talents. I'm going
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to drive forward to make good and excellent content that also happens to be glorifying to the Lord.
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Yeah. And, and, and not be ashamed of that on any level. And, and I found that people that
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rejected stories of faith were rejecting more the quality than they were necessarily the story.
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There are plenty of people who aren't believers who will watch a movie or TV show that comes from
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a faith perspective or is about a faith story. If it's compelling. I mean, I watched tons of stuff
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that comes from faith backgrounds or non-faith backgrounds that I don't necessarily share,
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but I still am interested in the story. Sure. And that we found that with the chosen. I mean,
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there are tons of, I mean, heck over half of our cast and crew aren't believers and they love the
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show. They were attracted to be part of the show. We have tons of viewers who aren't, who don't
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necessarily believe Jesus was the son of God, but know the stories and love the historical context of
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it and love the show because they think it's a compelling show. So I just decided, look, trying to water it
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down, trying to please multiple audiences. Like God took all of that away from me a few years ago
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when I had a huge career failure. So I've kind of let all that go and just decided to focus on just
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trying to tell the best story that I can. Yeah. You've directed several films, but the chosen
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is different. The chosen, um, like you said, is different in that it's not just appealing to
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faith-based audiences, even though it is a faith-based show, but it's reach is really wide.
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Were you at all surprised by that when you saw the huge response that it got, even from the beginning
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back in, you know, I think it was 2017 that it started, right? I mean, was that a little surprising
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to you? I have stopped being surprised or not surprised by success or failure. You know, it was
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in 2017 that my feature film came out that completely bombed at the box office and it had big expectations,
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and I had big expectations and hopes, and I was trying to be affirmed by Hollywood. It was my big
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opportunity to have a movie that came out in multiple theaters. And, and, uh, and then when it
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bombed, um, I had this moment, I was home alone with my wife crying and shocked. And just in just a
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couple hours, I went from being a director with a very bright future to being a director with no future
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because all these big Hollywood studios that had worked with me on this movie, when it bombed,
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they were like, all right, all our plans to do more movies with you. Those are no longer in effect,
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So when you say it bombed, it just not enough people saw it in the first weekend, it was,
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And, uh, the movie had gotten, it was a movie called The Resurrection of Gavin Stone and, uh,
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it had tested really well and the studios behind it were really positive. And, and these are some
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pretty big Hollywood companies. And, and, uh, because it had tested so well and they were so
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optimistic about it, they were like, we're going to do multiple movies with you in the future.
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Oh yeah. And, uh, and then on Friday afternoon, the numbers start coming in from the East coast
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and within a couple hours, you, it's a math equation. You can tell how the movie is going
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Man, that must've been just such a difficult feeling to go through. Not only did you put all
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that effort in, but you have voices in your head telling you, I mean, literal voices,
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people saying this is going to be a huge success and we'll really be kind of the springboard
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I was, yeah, I mean, I was devastated and my wife and I were home alone. It was a Friday
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afternoon and just so confused because the things that had happened to lead up to that
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point had felt so God led, like there were so many doors that had opened surprisingly.
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And again, giving, getting some of these big companies that normally would never do a faith
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based project, but really were interested in it and excited about it.
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And then it totally bombs. And you're thinking, well, this, this doesn't make sense because
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God, God's not the author of failure. So clearly, I guess I was wrong. He wasn't behind this. I
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thought he was behind this, but I guess he wasn't. And, uh, when I was home alone with my wife,
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there was this moment where we were in different rooms and she, she came into the kitchen where I
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was getting something to eat. And she says, I feel like God is placing on my heart really clearly,
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like as clearly as if he was saying it out loud, read the story of the feeding of the 5,000 in the
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Bible. When, when Jesus was, had been preaching for several days and the crowd was starving and,
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and a boy brings five loaves and two fish and he multiplies the loaves and fish and, and feeds 5,000
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people. And so we didn't know why we were supposed to read that story and what it meant, but so we're
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reading it and trying to glean something from it. And one thing we noticed was that, uh, the reason that
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the people were so hungry was Jesus's fault. He's the one who'd been talking for so long. He,
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he, he brought them to that place of hunger where the only thing left to satisfy it was a miracle.
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So we thought, oh, okay, maybe God is behind this and he's bringing us to this place of desperation.
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And now a miracle's coming, you know, maybe the box office numbers will magically turn around this
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weekend and, and we're going to be able to have this great story to tell. And that didn't happen.
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In fact, that night, the numbers got, got even a little worse. It was almost like God was saying,
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that's not the lesson that I have for you in the story, but we didn't know. We were just trying
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to figure out what is it that we're trying to learn, you know, that we need to learn from this.
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And, um, that night at, uh, four o'clock in the morning, I'm on, I'm writing a memo,
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a 15 page memo about everything that went wrong and what I need to learn from it and why the mistakes
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I made and why this was my fault and trying to solve the issue. So that just doesn't happen again.
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And just a message pops up on my computer through Facebook from someone I've never met,
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just a Facebook friend. Didn't even say hi. All he said was, remember, it's not your job to feed
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the 5,000. It's only to provide the loaves and fish. Wow. Like just, and I'm like, I typed back,
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I'm like, what are you doing up at four in the morning? That was my first question. And he's like,
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well, I'm on the other side of the world. I'm in Romania. I'm visiting my brother. I said,
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do you mind me asking why you said that? And he goes, oh, that, that wasn't me.
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God told me to tell that to you. And in that moment, my life changed because a, I felt more
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than ever, like God was present and in this and watching and had, you know, had my interests in
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mind, you know, and I felt, I felt, I felt more cared for in that moment than ever, because it was
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like, he was saying, yeah, this movie failed, but I've got something for you in it. And, um, but then also
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that concept, this is the answer to your question. I know it's a long way to get to it, but, but
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you're asking if I was surprised in that moment in my early forties, for the first time in my life,
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I stopped caring about the results for the first time. I was someone who felt responsible for results.
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I felt responsible for success or failure, even if it was something that was God breathed, um,
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or God inspired. And, uh, and so for the first time I was like, okay, all right, I'm going to get
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on this plan of the five loaves and two fish that I provide need to be good and healthy so that if God
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chooses to multiply them, they can feed people. But if not, that's up to him. The results aren't up to
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me anymore. The, uh, the success or failure isn't up to me how it's used or not used is not up to me.
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When I present my five loaves and two fish to God and he deems them worthy, there were transactions
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over. And I, I really embrace that. And it became a superpower in many ways. I stopped thinking about
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goals and trying to achieve and numbers and success. And I just literally focused on what's in front of
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me and what can I do? And if I, if I'm in God's will, if I feel like what I'm doing is, is, is right.
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And what he wants. And that's, that's all I'm focused on. And so am I surprised that the show
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ended up blowing up based on a short film that I did for my church? Like it was several months later
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after my big failure, I had the script for a short film about the birth of Christ and perspective of
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the shepherds that I had written and put on the shelf. Cause I was doing this big movie and I said to
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my church, you know, do we want to do this? And they said, yes, that's when I got the idea for the
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show for the show. And, uh, but I didn't think the show was going to get made cause you know,
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there's not people lining up around the block to do a Jesus show. And I was coming off of a career
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failure. So, uh, this short film ended up going out on social media, crowdfunded $10 million for
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season one of the chosen. It shattered the all-time crowdfunding record. All these things I thought
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were ridiculous, but I was on the loaves and fishes plan. So I'm like, you know what? It's not my job
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to worry about that. So I'm not surprised because God can do anything, but I wouldn't have been
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surprised if it would have failed as well for whatever you want to consider failure. But
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if nothing would have happened from the chosen, I wouldn't have been surprised by that either.
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So I'm just on this, I'm just making loaves and fish. The blank, the blank screen for season four,
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the scripts that I'm writing now doesn't care about how successful the show has been. I still have
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to try to write a show that is good and honoring. And so again, I know that's a really long answer
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to your question, but it's good. There's a lot of good lessons in there. It's funny because my dad
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tells me the same thing because just like in any work that someone does, that a Christian does,
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there are times that you feel like, is it really making an impact? Am I really doing the right
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thing? Or I messed up in saying that. And that wasn't exactly what I wanted to say, or maybe I'm
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not having the effect that I want. And my dad always just says fishes and loaves. Oh really?
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Yes. That's the same thing that my dad tells me, even though that passage of scripture is
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historically true. It's not primarily a metaphor. The principle is there. The principle is there is
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that God is going to multiply how he wants to multiply. And as you said, the point is not the
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result. The point is the obedience. The point is that God is going to get glory through our obedience,
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whether it ends in what we call failure or what we call success. So I'm appreciative of your long
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answer. There's a lot of good lessons in that. Yeah. And, and the thing is it would have been
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ridiculous for the boy who provided the loaves and fish to go home to his parents and say,
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I fed 5,000 people today. Right. Isn't that amazing? Of course not. That's ridiculous.
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That's, and that's how I talk about the chosen and people like, wow, are you, are, you know,
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are you proud of what the chosen has done? I'm like, I'm not responsible for a hundred million
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people around the world watching this show like that. I, you know, I feel like my loaves and fish are
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pretty good and I'm proud of that, but yeah, the multiplication is really not up to me. And, and so
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yeah, that, that, that metaphor, what's interesting about the story too, is that God could have just
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could have just multiple multiplied fish and loaves from scratch. Like he could have just waved his
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hand and all that fish and loaves could have just come from nothing, but he, he does want us to
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participate. He does use us. And then when it came time to, to distribute it, he had the disciples go
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hand out all the loaves and fish. I mean, he does part, all the things that he, we don't need him
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to do. He wants us to do. And that's something really we see throughout scripture that I've
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noticed that God is a God of processes. He could really do anything automatically. He didn't need,
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you know, Israel to wander through the wilderness for 40 years. He could have just said, here's the
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promised land. I got those enemies out. You're good to go. And yet we constantly see him, um,
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sanctifying and bringing them through challenges and really putting them in a position to where
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they have to depend on him. And we just have to believe that all of that, all of those processes
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are for God's glory, even when we don't see it. Yeah. Like the parting of the Red Sea. He still
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said, I need you to strike your staff on the rock. Like there's always something that he asks us to
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do to kind of unlock this, what's bigger. It's, it's a fascinating. Yeah. And it's not that he needs
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our effort. It's just that somehow he gets glory out of it. I imagine that it is a huge undertaking
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and you kind of just mentioned this when you're thinking, okay, you're not responsible for the
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millions of people watching this, but I still imagine as you are trying to create a series,
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the chosen that reflects the life of Christ that is as biblically and historically culturally accurate
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as possible while still having to take creative license. For example, like Matthew, you depict him
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as someone who's on the spectrum. We don't see that in the Bible. And so how do you approach that huge
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task of trying to stay as accurate and grounded as possible while also being creative and creating a
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series that people really want to watch? Yeah. Well, what's interesting is I would say probably
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95% of the content of the show isn't directly from scripture. People call it a Bible show. They'll
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call it a Jesus show. And I'm, I'm, I'm okay with that, but I'll say this is actually, I mean,
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the Bible is for sure the primary source of truth and inspiration for the show, but there's a ton of
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content that isn't actually directly from scripture. So to your question, it's a, it's a,
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it's a dangerous proposition. You know, you're walking a fine line, especially as someone like
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myself who loves the Bible. And I know that people who watch it, the majority of people who watch it
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are going to be wanting us to be remain faithful to the scriptures as much as possible. We operate
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from the, this question, is this plausible? Whatever we write that is that didn't come from
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scripture, is this plausible culturally, historically, and does it fit within the character and intentions
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of Jesus in the gospels, even if it's not directly from them, or even if we don't know if it's fact or
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not. So for example, Matthew being on the spectrum, uh, is that plausible? I think so. Why? Well, we,
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this is, this is a good, uh, example of how we approach the show in general. We start with what
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we know from scripture. So we know that Matthew was a tax collector. Uh, that means he was a numbers guy.
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Uh, he, we know he's a facts guy. The first chapter of his book is a genealogy divided into three
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sections of 14 names a piece. Uh, we know that he chose a profession that made him an outcast
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hated by the Jews for betraying his people by being a tax collector and working for the Romans
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disrespected by the Romans for being Jewish. All of these things, we're, we're, we're writing them
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down on a, on a big piece of paper as we're formulating the character of Matthew. And I'm
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someone who's very familiar with the autism world. I have autism in my family. I've done a lot of work in
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the special needs community. So I know autism very, very closely. And, uh, I'm like, these are,
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these are traits of Asperger's. These are traits of numbers, facts, uh, socially outcast,
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but maybe comfortable with that because maybe you prefer to be a little bit, uh, alone. And we
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thought, what if, what if Matthew, what if we could have, what if we could portray him as being on the
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spectrum? Think of how human that is. Think of how relatable that could be for people. Um,
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taking the stories from 2000 years ago and actually putting them in to a modern context
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for the viewer could be really powerful and relatable. Now doing something just to be
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relatable, that could be a problem. We're not trying to take the gospel. All right,
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we're going to change it. We're going to make it more. We're going to, we're going to water it down
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so that people get it. We're going to do something. We're going to try to have more diversity just to
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be politically correct. Just try to appeal as many people as possible. That would be a problem,
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but this is plausible. If it's plausible and it happens to allow the viewer to connect even more
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deeply to the people and see Jesus through the eyes of people who actually followed him,
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that can be really impactful. So that's how we approach all of these stories that you see in
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the show. Some come directly from scripture. Some come from our imagination, but I think all of it
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comes through this filter of plausibility based on a desire to be faithful to the scriptures
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and to the character and intentions of Jesus in the gospels. It's not easy. It's on dangerous
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ground. We get, we get a lot of criticism obviously from people who don't want to see
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anything that's not from scripture, but, uh, but we do believe that it's a, it's a, we're not the
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Bible. We're not pretending to be the Bible. We're not a replacement for scripture. We never claim to
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be, we're not adding to scripture because scripture is scripture. That's the Bible. Your Bible hasn't
00:22:12.600
changed since the chosen came out. Uh, we're not adding to it. This is a show about first century
00:22:17.260
Galilee using the Bible as our primary source. Right. Has there been any criticism with every
00:22:23.300
popular project? There's going to be criticism. It's just inevitable. Has there been any criticism
00:22:27.780
that has made you go, Hmm, actually that might be a good point, or it has like caused you to either
00:22:35.400
change direction or at least, I don't know, but think a little bit more deeply about a choice that
00:22:40.380
the series made. I would say not a lot. And here's why, not because I'm arrogant and don't
00:22:46.900
accept criticism. It's because we do so much of that work on the front end. Yeah. So when we do
00:22:52.440
something on, in the show that someone is bothered by, sometimes they'll even say, boy, you know, you,
00:23:00.680
you need to change that. Or why aren't you apologizing for that? We're offended, you know?
00:23:03.900
And I'll say, we, we, we thought through all this deeply on the front end. I mean, I have,
00:23:08.900
I have Bible consultants that I, that I work with. Um, I, I go through a lot of research,
00:23:13.940
a lot of prayer, a lot of, we, we, we take this very, very seriously. So by the time we've released
00:23:19.440
the show, it's very unlikely that someone's going to point out something that we haven't thought of
00:23:24.760
and considered. Now there's been stuff that I, that we missed, you know, whether it's some,
00:23:29.120
some sort of cultural fact, some historical fact that maybe we got wrong. Um,
00:23:33.900
you know, inadvertently, or, you know, maybe slip through the cracks, but when it comes to our
00:23:37.820
biblical approach or our approach to how theology and whatnot, it's unlikely that a YouTube comment
00:23:45.640
is going to suddenly settle 2000 years of debate about the theology of God versus man. And, you know,
00:23:52.400
the, the most controversial thing that we, that we've done to the, to date was, uh, there was about
00:23:56.740
10 seconds of Jesus. He was preparing for the big sermon on the Mount and he's kind of working out
00:24:02.280
some of the things in his head of what he wants to say. And he's working on the turn of phrase.
00:24:06.420
It's kind of like, it's like sermon prep. And there were some people who just were so offended
00:24:10.340
that God, Jesus would ever need to prepare or that he would struggle to come up with the right words
00:24:16.040
or anything like that. And I understand what they're saying. Um, but they would be like, Jesus is
00:24:23.000
God. He would never, never struggle, you know, uh, to think of anything. And then you look at a verse
00:24:29.840
like in Philippians where it says that Jesus did not account to Jesus did not count equality with God
00:24:34.380
as something to be grasped, but he actually gave up a lot of his, the things that he has when he's
00:24:39.080
sitting at the right hand of the father, he didn't have when he was on earth. And so there's a spectrum
00:24:44.120
of, of, of what Jesus may have known or not known how God was he, how man was he? You know,
00:24:50.720
there's a term called the hypostatic union where he was both fully God and fully man. Well, this has been
00:24:55.520
debated and discussed for thousands of years. It's, it's vexed scholars, the world over people
00:25:01.800
who love the Bible can disagree on this issue. And yet a YouTube commenter can say, no, I know it
00:25:07.980
and you're wrong. And I'm going to settle this debate. So I'm using that as an example of,
00:25:12.180
of the kind of thing where the decision to do that on my part was, was made and thought through
00:25:17.880
deeply before we brought it to the world. So their comment isn't going to necessarily make me go,
00:25:23.480
Oh, I never thought of that. Let me change my mind. So. Right. And you're not claiming that those
00:25:28.040
things are not debatable. Right. And so, because as you said, I mean, Jesus is fully God and fully
00:25:33.680
man. A lot of those things of how that manifested itself, what weaknesses he did have, um, as far as
00:25:40.520
even just the weakness of hunger or the weakness of thirst, like how much did that really have an
00:25:45.880
effect on his life and on his mind. And so I think it just goes back to kind of what you were saying,
00:25:50.860
that is it plausible? Not, is it in scripture or is it? Yeah. And I even said, I'm not willing to
00:25:56.500
say that our portrayal in that moment was fact. I don't know that, but neither do you. So let's
00:26:02.640
explore together. You shouldn't be relying on me or the show for your entire theology, theological
00:26:07.840
interpretation of who God is. You should be in a good church. You should be reading the scriptures.
00:26:12.420
That's where this show is a supplement. This show is a, is a, is like, as you just mentioned,
00:26:17.440
it's, it's, it's what we believe a plausible attempt to capture the people of first century
00:26:22.620
Galilee. But I think it's, I think it's good, healthy discussions. Yeah. I would have thought
00:26:27.240
that you would say that the most controversial thing or the thing that caused the most criticism
00:26:31.480
was when Jesus said, I am the law of Moses. And people interpreted that as quoting the Book of
00:26:38.840
Mormon, which I know that you've already answered this. It was not a direct quote from the Book of
00:26:43.260
Mormon, not also a direct quote from scripture. So I would have thought that that was the thing
00:26:48.640
that caused the most. Well, that episode hasn't come out yet. That was in the trailer. So, so yeah,
00:26:54.360
I must've missed that part. Well, no, no, no. I mean, it's it, well, it was in the trailer. And,
00:26:58.440
and so, yes, I would say you're right. That, that became, uh, one of the most controversial things.
00:27:06.080
Uh, yeah, because, so there's a moment in episode three, which is coming up, uh, this Sunday night,
00:27:11.880
actually, um, that we have our big live stream on, uh, on Christmas, uh, December 25th. Uh, we have
00:27:18.000
our big episode three live stream and that'll get, give everyone the chance to see the scene that has
00:27:23.260
the quote that vexed so many people. So, uh, one of the Pharisees is really upset with Jesus for claiming
00:27:29.560
to be the Messiah, uh, in his own hometown. And, uh, they're saying you're a false prophet. And, uh,
00:27:36.640
because you're a false prophet, we have no choice, but to follow the law of Moses, uh, which of course
00:27:42.860
says you put to death, false prophets. And Jesus steps up to him and says, I am the law of Moses.
00:27:47.560
And yes, there, there, a rumor got spread that that's a quote from the book of Mormon. I've never
00:27:52.960
actually read the book of Mormon. Uh, so I, I, you know, even if it had been a quote, I wouldn't have
00:27:58.820
known it. And it's not even a direct quote. Anyway, the quote, I think for the book of Mormon
00:28:01.900
is like, I am the law. I am the law and the light. Yeah. So all that to say, um, yes, that there
00:28:08.740
were some major criticism and controversy came about from that quote. And, uh, what's, what's
00:28:14.340
interesting about it is that I think sometimes people make assumptions even about what you mean
00:28:19.740
from something. So for example, Jesus in that scene, I do believe it's plausible for him to
00:28:26.940
claim. I'm the law of Moses. Uh, many, many people, many scholars would, would consider
00:28:31.740
Jesus to be the living, breathing Torah, the living word, as they say, um, that, that he
00:28:37.040
were, that even though he has fulfilled the law, that doesn't mean the law is done. And
00:28:41.900
it, and of course we believe he in the father coauthored the law. So all of those things are
00:28:45.840
again, theological discussions worthy of, of, of debate that said, what he is doing in that
00:28:52.100
moment is he is asserting authority. So the Pharisee is saying the law of Moses is our
00:28:57.880
authority. And he's going, I'm, I'm your authority. Yeah. So it's like, if someone comes to the,
00:29:03.300
let's say a big authority figure comes to someone's house and, and, uh, and, and, and the person
00:29:08.480
living in the house says, Hey, I'm, you know what, I'm going to call the police. And the person
00:29:12.120
goes, well, I am the police. Now that doesn't necessarily mean they're literally a police officer,
00:29:16.380
but they're saying I'm the authority. Whatever you see as your authority, that's me. That's what
00:29:20.420
Jesus is asserting in that scene. And in the context of the full scene, which you can see in
00:29:24.000
episode three is it's probably the most blatant declaration in the whole show of Jesus as God,
00:29:30.740
Jesus as son of God, Jesus as the savior. So a lot of what I kind of chuckled to myself going,
00:29:35.620
a lot of the critics of this moment are actually, if they saw the whole scene or seeing, it's probably
00:29:39.760
the most blatant depiction of Jesus as the authority that will ever show. So, but you bring up a great
00:29:46.020
example, which is that when we're doing 56 episodes of this show, that's going to be about
00:29:50.980
50 hours of television portraying Jesus, the most famous and influential man in history.
00:29:56.800
There's going to be moments that everyone has a disagreement with, even as someone like myself
00:30:02.440
who loves God's word, the most staunch practicing evangelical will at some point in this show see
00:30:09.500
something that they don't fully agree with. The hope is that you have a little bit of grace and go,
00:30:14.040
there's things on which we can disagree. It doesn't mean that you're a heretic. It doesn't
00:30:17.860
mean that you're trying to lead people away from the authentic Jesus. It means that there's a lot
00:30:22.880
of things that we don't fully know and understand. Let's wrestle with them.
00:30:37.740
The number one question that I got from my audience, as you can probably guess, was about
00:30:43.060
Mormonism and about some recent comments that you made. You clarified those comments. You said,
00:30:48.500
you know, there are some LDS people that I know we love the same Jesus. And then you kind of clarified
00:30:54.900
that to say not that LDS and evangelical Christians have the same theology, but that the ones you know
00:31:02.640
love the same Jesus. I mean, as you know, some people have a problem with that. Mormonism does not
00:31:07.200
believe that Jesus is God, believes that Jesus is a son of God and became like God, was actually a
00:31:13.340
brother of Satan. So it's not the same Jesus. It's not the same God at all. And the differences are
00:31:19.780
extremely fundamental. I would say much more than, you know, Catholicism or things like that. And so,
00:31:26.040
you know, some people were a little concerned, concerned about that.
00:31:31.060
Well, out of context, you take the phrase that I said, where I said, we love the same Jesus. And
00:31:36.360
they said, okay, Dallas is saying that all Mormons, all LDS folks love the same Jesus as evangelicals.
00:31:42.760
Now, I'm not going to speak for the LDS church. But what I was saying, and I think my wording was
00:31:49.740
sloppy. I think that I could have clarified a little bit better. I do have some LDS friends.
00:31:53.980
I have LDS friends who I would say don't necessarily love the same Jesus that I do.
00:31:58.800
I do have some that I have spent hundreds of hours with. I have prayed with. I have wept with. I have
00:32:07.540
gone to Israel with. I have spent hundreds of hours of talking. And I would say that those friends of
00:32:15.900
mine that I know that I've spent tons of time with, when we're talking particularly about Jesus of
00:32:20.220
Nazareth, particularly the Jesus of the Gospels, it is the same Jesus. They, they love that. Like
00:32:26.040
the, the, the, the show that like the Jesus that I'm portraying in the show, the Jesus that we
00:32:30.820
read about in the scriptures. I firmly believe that, and I, you know, in my deep conversations
00:32:37.700
with them, that, that we're, when we're talking about Jesus of Nazareth, we're talking about the
00:32:41.320
same one now. But they may have John one, that the word was God. That is not what Mormons believe.
00:32:49.180
Well, that may not be the official statement of the LDS church, but I would say that I know some
00:32:55.000
LDS folks who would say, I believe in John, John chapter one. Now that may put them in misalignment
00:33:00.320
with their church. I don't know. I don't get into the details of, of whether or not what, what,
00:33:05.040
what their church thinks of it. I'm just saying I have, you know, I I've literally asked those very
00:33:09.360
questions to some of my friends and I've gone, well, what do you think of John chapter one? I
00:33:12.880
am in the beginning was the word and the word was God and the word was with God. They go, I believe
00:33:17.500
that. I go, well, it seems to contradict this piece. And they go, well, that piece might, might've
00:33:21.480
been misinterpreted by some people. So I'm just saying, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not disagreeing
00:33:25.840
with you. I would say, if you said to me, does the LDS church as a whole, and does the evangelical
00:33:31.700
world as a whole share the same fundamental theological beliefs about Jesus? I would say no, but I would
00:33:38.200
say even within the evangelical world, there are evangelicals who I would say don't necessarily
00:33:42.400
know Jesus as the Bible is portraying, because as, as, as Bible is, is, is contending, because
00:33:49.460
I just don't believe in a broad, broadly stating about any one people group. This is what they
00:33:57.600
all believe. And this is what they all know. I wouldn't say that about any particular people
00:34:02.320
group. I've, I've known evangelical, I've sat next to evangelicals and churches who I would
00:34:06.820
say, yeah, we're going to the same church, but we don't necessarily understand or believe
00:34:10.980
the same things. So I'm, I'm acknowledging that in the, in the interview that I did several
00:34:17.820
years ago, that my wording could have been sloppy. It's so that I wanted to make sure it
00:34:21.460
didn't sound like I'm speaking for an entire people group or speaking about an entire people
00:34:24.900
group. I would just say that there are, I think all of us, I think you've, I think all
00:34:29.440
of us have experienced this. If you're, if you're a conservative, if you're a Christian, if you're
00:34:33.180
an evangelical, if you're a Catholic, we've all experienced being painted with a broad
00:34:39.060
brush based on the, the, the name of our tribe that we're in. And I've, I've seen it
00:34:47.360
happen multiple times that because I'm part of a particular label that there's an assumption
00:34:52.780
made about that I must accept or believe everything about that's typically associated with that
00:34:59.140
label. And I would say that there's oftentimes exceptions. And, and, and, and I would say
00:35:04.360
that there, there can be exceptions in this case. And again, I'm not saying that we all
00:35:11.320
agree with the same thing and that we all have the same beliefs about everything. But, but I
00:35:15.140
would say that, uh, that I was speaking about specific people in that case.
00:35:19.520
Yeah. And I would just encourage people go back and listen to, um, Thursday's episode.
00:35:24.860
We talked to a woman who spent 30 years in the Mormon church and then became a Christian. And
00:35:29.500
it's not saying that everyone with the, with a label believes the same things, but it is looking
00:35:35.180
at particular doctrines and just making sure that people know, uh, the true gospel, what is a works
00:35:40.520
based religion, um, versus what is by grace through faith. And that is what Christianity is
00:35:48.620
Let me say one more, if you don't mind, one more clarifier too. I have spoken with,
00:35:53.840
I would say it's a conservative estimate to say dozens, like personal conversations with dozens
00:36:00.240
of people from the LDS faith who have said to me, because of the chosen, I am finding myself
00:36:07.620
closer to the, to Jesus and closer to grace than I ever have in my entire life. That I am finding
00:36:15.440
myself falling more in love with Jesus than the church. And that to me, um,
00:36:21.560
And that would be a big shift for Mormons who really see church, the LDS church as the authority.
00:36:27.900
No, I mean, I know, I know people who, for whom their church, LDS or Catholic or any, any kind
00:36:34.060
of formal religion is in many, almost like God is almost like the thing that they worship,
00:36:40.380
the thing that is their connection to God. And as an evangelical, I passionately believe that
00:36:46.120
you don't need anything formal or anything to, to, to, to connect you to God, that you can have a
00:36:51.800
direct relationship with Jesus. And, uh, I have talked to dozens personally myself and heard from
00:36:59.580
hundreds online or even thousands of people who've said, I am finding myself loving Jesus more and
00:37:07.120
finding a personal relationship with Jesus more so than my church, more so than anything formal,
00:37:14.240
anything, uh, any, any, any, any person or thing as a connection that I'm, I'm actually gave it,
00:37:20.220
getting direct access to Jesus because of this. And so, uh, even if by some chance I disagree with
00:37:26.520
a viewer about someone else's faith, I can tell you that the chosen itself, the content of the chosen
00:37:32.400
itself, I'm responsible for, it's not influenced by any religion. It's not influenced by any church,
00:37:38.240
any person. It comes from a personal belief in Jesus as the son of God, as the ultimate authority
00:37:44.280
as God. And, uh, and if that can actually have an influence and an impact on people who maybe
00:37:49.820
have in the past not been able to have a personal relationship because of whether it's a lack of faith
00:37:57.500
or sometimes it's because of the idolatry of their own church, the idolatry of, of, uh, their own
00:38:02.800
habits, uh, the idolatry of, of their own vices, but you can actually get past all of that.
00:38:08.920
Yeah. And I just want my listeners and my viewers to know, to make clear that Mormonism is not a
00:38:14.480
denomination of Christianity, that there are fundamental differences. Go back and listen to
00:38:19.280
Thursday's episode. But the reason why I am not concerned with some people say, well, I know there
00:38:26.400
are Mormons who work with the company that distribute. The reason why that doesn't, to me,
00:38:33.320
mean that someone should not watch the chosen is because from what I've seen, Mormon theology
00:38:37.300
is not influencing the chosen. It is scripture. And so there are lots of different people of lots
00:38:45.620
of different faiths that we work with that aren't necessarily influencing our work. There are people
00:38:51.060
that would be like saying that you shouldn't listen to Relatable because Blaze TV distributes it and the
00:38:56.040
people who run Blaze TV might have, you know, different beliefs than I do. And so that is
00:39:01.400
not my concern. Including LDS. Yeah. But I didn't want, but I did want to just kind of give us the
00:39:06.180
opportunity to kind of talk about that and hear you clarify it because I know a lot of people,
00:39:10.320
you know, did have questions. Yeah, absolutely. And I think those are healthy questions. And I would
00:39:13.800
just say, like you just said, even if we end up disagreeing on some of these issues,
00:39:19.780
I don't believe there's a disagreement about the content of the show. And I've said from the
00:39:26.760
beginning, the show speaks for itself. And I am a flawed, sinful human being. And regardless of our
00:39:36.140
conversation about LDS folks, there's plenty of other things about me or something that I,
00:39:42.020
things that I've done, things that I still do, whatever that we may disagree about or that I
00:39:46.420
struggle with. Like, do not look at the show as the Bible. Do not look at me as God. Do not look
00:39:52.820
at Jonathan Rumi, who plays Jesus as Jesus. We are flawed human beings, unlike the Bible.
00:39:58.340
The Bible is perfect. The Bible is what you are looking to as your authority. This is a show that's
00:40:03.500
going to have, that's made by a flawed person. And I'm not claiming direct scriptural authority
00:40:09.120
or inspiration from God. I'm doing my best to try to give a plausible account of the truth
00:40:29.440
I think we have a short clip of one of the, is it one of the upcoming episodes?
00:40:35.160
So this is episode two, which I, which I would have, I think aired last night.
00:40:38.600
This is a, this is a scene with a little James, who's one of the disciples who is played by Jordan
00:40:45.800
Walker Ross, who has cerebral palsy, mild cerebral palsy and scoliosis. And when I decided to cast him
00:40:51.160
as one of the disciples, I remember thinking, oh boy, speaking of theological implications and debates
00:40:56.820
and all that, we're going to have to tackle this one of why doesn't God heal everybody? Because we can
00:41:02.460
look around and see that, you know, Jesus, while he was here on earth, probably we don't see too many,
00:41:08.460
we don't see any examples in the Gospels of him not healing someone. So that may, you know, that I
00:41:13.620
know some people had questions when they watched the scene that we're about to show of, of, of one of
00:41:18.100
his own disciples saying, hey, you're sending us out two by two to go heal. And I'm not healed.
00:41:26.280
I wanted to ask you a question, please. You're sending us out with the ability to heal the
00:41:34.020
second lane. Yes, that, that is what you said. Yes. So you're telling me that I have the ability
00:41:42.080
to heal. Forgive me. I just find that difficult to imagine with my condition.
00:41:56.280
Which you haven't healed. Do you want to be healed?
00:42:05.760
Yes, of course. If, if that's possible. I think you've seen enough to know it's possible.
00:42:18.660
So this is an episode that's playing right before Christmas. And Christmas is a beautiful time of
00:42:25.840
year. But for a lot of people, it's a difficult time of year, whether they have been through
00:42:30.500
tough experiences surrounding Christmas, or whether they're dealing with some kind of
00:42:35.040
chronic illness or trial right now. And they're asking this very question. They're asking, well,
00:42:40.300
why won't God fix it? I know that he can. He's good. He loves me. He's powerful. And yet he's not
00:42:46.500
healing me. He's not healing my loved one. He's not fixing it. What is the message of hope to those
00:42:51.800
people going through that right now? Well, yeah. In the, in the, in the scene in episode two,
00:42:56.440
Jesus says, yeah, it's a good story. If, if when I do miracles, you know, that's a good story.
00:43:03.520
But, but when you think about it, sometimes even we as human beings, even when we experience a miracle
00:43:08.100
or a great joy or some sort of wonderful resolution to a problem that we face on earth,
00:43:13.380
even then, sometimes we forget it. Sometimes it doesn't stick. Sometimes we reject God even after
00:43:18.620
that takes place. Sometimes the best story and sometimes the best example of God's faithfulness
00:43:25.220
is in the midst of pain and struggle. When we can still trust God, that is oftentimes what allows us
00:43:33.420
to have the most impact on people, because there are so many people in this world who don't necessarily
00:43:38.880
believe in who are hurting. And we can say, you know what, God hurt, God hurts sometimes too.
00:43:43.020
Jesus experienced suffering, pain. He didn't promise that he would alleviate all suffering
00:43:48.920
and pain. If anything, he promised that we would experience a lot of it on this earth.
00:43:52.840
The book of James talks about, there's a verse that says, consider it joy when you experience trials
00:43:58.600
of many kinds because the testing of your faith produces endurance. And it's similar to, you know,
00:44:08.020
working out, you know, like when you, the process of working out oftentimes means lifting things that
00:44:13.440
weren't meant to be lifted and, and causing your body, pushing your body past what it, what you think
00:44:18.720
it might be capable of. And that produces strength. And so during this holiday season with, sometimes
00:44:24.600
it's a, it almost puts a spotlight on your suffering because you're seeing everyone having so much joy
00:44:29.820
and happiness. And you're like, why aren't I experiencing that? And a little James says later
00:44:35.040
in that scene, he's like, I, I know it's easy to say I'm fearfully and wonderfully made. It's the song
00:44:42.200
of David, you know, it's a Psalm, but it doesn't make experiencing this any easier. And it doesn't make
00:44:48.560
me feel like less of a burden. And Jesus talks about how all of us have something, all of us,
00:44:54.120
every single person that you see successful or not successful has something in their life that is a
00:44:58.800
struggle or a hindrance or a, or a pain point or some piece of suffering and finding joy in the midst
00:45:06.420
of suffering. It's not easy, but when you have a relationship with God and you have the ability to think
00:45:11.900
on an eternal perspective, as opposed to a temporary one on when you can get on the joy program instead of the
00:45:18.440
happiness program, because happiness comes and goes, but that joy that, that is can exist even in the midst
00:45:23.480
of, of, of pain. It's difficult. And I don't think in, in one minute, I'm going to be able to,
00:45:28.160
to, to, to give the answer to how to find it beyond just all I can tell you is that I've never met
00:45:34.940
anyone who didn't end up finding a relationship with, with Jesus, who didn't get more on that joy
00:45:40.760
plan as opposed to the happiness plan. And I do think at the risk of sounding cheesy, that's what
00:45:45.940
makes Christmas so awesome. As you go, when Jesus was born, this thing that we're celebrating,
00:45:52.620
the Messiah, the savior of the universe actually came to a stable to parents who were really poor
00:45:58.500
and scared and in over their heads and just as freaked out as sometimes we get. And that's part
00:46:04.180
of what the chosen is all about is trying to help you understand that the, that the questions and the
00:46:08.880
challenges and the, the, the doubts that they faced 2000 years ago are the same that we face today.
00:46:15.420
And now hopefully you can see that the answer and the solution to those questions and doubts
00:46:22.840
is the same today as it was 2000 years ago. Yes. And amen. Well, thank you so much. Thanks
00:46:27.900
for taking the time to talk to us. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks so much for having
00:46:30.840
me on. I appreciate this. Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas. Yes.