Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 726 ｜ 'The Chosen：' Questions & Controversies ｜ Guest： Dallas Jenkins

00:00:00.000 The Chosen is a wildly popular show about the life of Jesus Christ. It's received a lot of

00:00:06.900 praise as well as its fair share of criticism. And here to discuss all of those things is the

00:00:12.280 creator of the show, Dallas Jenkins. We will talk about his life, his story, what led him

00:00:17.840 to create The Chosen. And we will also talk about some of the pushback that the show has received,

00:00:24.760 including the controversy surrounding his comments about Mormonism and Jesus. It's a

00:00:31.580 great conversation. I know that you're going to love it. This episode is brought to you by our

00:00:35.900 friends at Good Ranchers. Go to goodranchers.com. Use code Allie at checkout for a discount. That's

00:00:41.380 goodranchers.com, code Allie. Dallas, thanks so much for joining us.

00:00:54.460 I appreciate you having me. This is great.

00:00:56.440 Yes. So many people out there love The Chosen. A lot of people have questions for you

00:01:00.780 about The Chosen. Let's first back up before even you started this series. I know a lot of people

00:01:08.640 probably know your story, but if you could just give us a little summary of how you got into the

00:01:12.880 Christian media biz. Well, my father is Jerry Jenkins. He wrote the Left Behind books. And so

00:01:19.720 those were huge. They're still pretty big. But back in the day, about 25 years ago,

00:01:24.180 they were pretty huge. And there was a movie being developed based on the first Left Behind book

00:01:30.680 when I was in college. And I had been wanting to get into film in some way. I mean, I remember seeing

00:01:38.560 the movie One Flew of the Cuckoo's Nest when I was in high school. And that movie changed my life. I

00:01:42.980 was like, whatever that is, I want to do that. I want to make movies.

00:01:45.180 What was it about it? What was it about that movie?

00:01:47.620 Well, there was a scene. I was watching it in my home. It was on TV. And there's a scene where

00:01:52.420 Jack Nicholson's character is not allowed to watch TV. He wanted to watch the World Series game. And

00:01:57.680 Nurse Ratched says, you can't watch it. So he goes and sits in front of a television and pretends,

00:02:03.280 he starts broadcasting a fake World Series game.

00:02:05.680 And the other inmates start listening to him and getting excited. And he starts yelling and

00:02:11.600 talking about this home run just hit. And he's like a broadcaster. And they start cheering. And

00:02:17.180 I'm literally just sitting there. There's like tears streaming down my face. And I am so excited.

00:02:22.260 And I'm like, I want to do that. I want to inspire in people the kind of reaction that I'm having.

00:02:27.820 That's kind of emotional response to something. And so that's when I was like,

00:02:30.440 I and what's funny is, I think at the time, I was wanting to be a sports broadcaster.

00:02:34.700 So that I think that had something to do with it to the scene. So I wanted to make movies. And

00:02:40.440 so my thought was, well, as a as a young guy growing up, I, I grew up, I grew up in the faith

00:02:49.460 and as a Christian, but I love TV and movies. But there wasn't anything that represented my faith

00:02:55.800 that I liked as much as the normal TV and movies that I would watch. Like all the stuff, there was

00:03:01.280 a Christian movie that came out, it wasn't any good. So I didn't know what kind of movies I

00:03:07.240 necessarily wanted to make. But I knew I wanted to get into that in some way. And I thought be good

00:03:10.800 to represent my stories in some way stories of faith. And I remember there was a moment in,

00:03:17.540 I think it was around 20, 2007 or so, I was mowing the lawn. And I felt like God just like put it

00:03:26.700 really strongly on my heart. Because I was kind of bad mouthing slash apologizing for faith based

00:03:33.240 films. Like, I don't really want to do that because they're so bad. And God was like, my people

00:03:36.720 deserve good stuff, too. You know, so why don't you just make it better? And so just talking about

00:03:43.400 how bad it is. Yeah, exactly. And so, or instead of, I think sometimes we get into this perspective

00:03:49.820 of trying to be cool. You know, like, well, I don't want to be, like, even when you use the term

00:03:55.420 Christian media, I was like, my instinct was like, well, I wouldn't call it Christian media. Just do

00:03:59.760 media and it happens to have faith in it. And sometimes I get, you get defensive of that. And

00:04:03.600 I'm trying to get rid of that and just go, look, I'm doing a show called The Chosen. It's about

00:04:09.160 Jesus by definition. That's Christian. So I got more comfortable with it. But long story 0.88

00:04:15.160 short, I just really, I think it was about 15 years ago where I thought, look, I have

00:04:21.200 something I think unique to say that most filmmakers are looking for something unique to say. And

00:04:30.340 even studios are looking for filmmakers who have unique things to say. And I thought, if I'm

00:04:36.880 just trying to be a normal filmmaker, you know, there's many people who can do that. What is it

00:04:44.660 that I, what is unique about what I have to say or what I can bring to the table or what God may

00:04:49.020 want me to share? And so I embraced that. I became okay with that, with, with, with, all right,

00:04:54.980 I want to tell stories that reflect God. And that, that's, that's when I shifted probably again,

00:05:02.480 about 15 years ago to start starting really focusing on stories that were uniquely about

00:05:09.000 the relationship God wants to have with, with, with humanity.

00:05:13.360 It is interesting that a lot of Christians, I mean, myself included sometimes, on the one hand,

00:05:18.060 you complain about secular media and the values that it's promoting and how it's promoting degeneracy

00:05:23.480 and all of that. But at the same time, then you complain about the Christian media or however you

00:05:28.640 want to describe it. That's, it might be promoting the values that you like, but it's not entertaining

00:05:33.400 or you think it's lame or the acting is bad or something like that. And so you kind of decided,

00:05:38.420 you know what, I'm not going to sit in either camp. God has given me these talents. I'm going

00:05:42.680 to drive forward to make good and excellent content that also happens to be glorifying to the Lord.

00:05:48.760 Yeah. And, and, and not be ashamed of that on any level. And, and I found that people that

00:05:54.380 rejected stories of faith were rejecting more the quality than they were necessarily the story.

00:06:02.920 There are plenty of people who aren't believers who will watch a movie or TV show that comes from

00:06:11.480 a faith perspective or is about a faith story. If it's compelling. I mean, I watched tons of stuff

00:06:17.220 that comes from faith backgrounds or non-faith backgrounds that I don't necessarily share,

00:06:21.760 but I still am interested in the story. Sure. And that we found that with the chosen. I mean,

00:06:26.820 there are tons of, I mean, heck over half of our cast and crew aren't believers and they love the

00:06:32.620 show. They were attracted to be part of the show. We have tons of viewers who aren't, who don't

00:06:39.380 necessarily believe Jesus was the son of God, but know the stories and love the historical context of

00:06:44.380 it and love the show because they think it's a compelling show. So I just decided, look, trying to water it

00:06:50.160 down, trying to please multiple audiences. Like God took all of that away from me a few years ago

00:06:54.780 when I had a huge career failure. So I've kind of let all that go and just decided to focus on just

00:07:00.180 trying to tell the best story that I can. Yeah. You've directed several films, but the chosen

00:07:04.640 is different. The chosen, um, like you said, is different in that it's not just appealing to

00:07:10.960 faith-based audiences, even though it is a faith-based show, but it's reach is really wide.

00:07:16.260 Were you at all surprised by that when you saw the huge response that it got, even from the beginning

00:07:22.460 back in, you know, I think it was 2017 that it started, right? I mean, was that a little surprising

00:07:28.900 to you? I have stopped being surprised or not surprised by success or failure. You know, it was

00:07:38.520 in 2017 that my feature film came out that completely bombed at the box office and it had big expectations,

00:07:45.960 and I had big expectations and hopes, and I was trying to be affirmed by Hollywood. It was my big

00:07:51.280 opportunity to have a movie that came out in multiple theaters. And, and, uh, and then when it

00:07:57.700 bombed, um, I had this moment, I was home alone with my wife crying and shocked. And just in just a

00:08:05.800 couple hours, I went from being a director with a very bright future to being a director with no future

00:08:09.580 because all these big Hollywood studios that had worked with me on this movie, when it bombed,

00:08:14.240 they were like, all right, all our plans to do more movies with you. Those are no longer in effect,

00:08:19.400 you know, again,

00:08:20.040 So when you say it bombed, it just not enough people saw it in the first weekend, it was,

00:08:24.460 you know, below estimates,

00:08:26.160 Below their lowest estimates. Yes.

00:08:28.280 Okay.

00:08:28.600 And, uh, the movie had gotten, it was a movie called The Resurrection of Gavin Stone and, uh,

00:08:32.960 it had tested really well and the studios behind it were really positive. And, and these are some

00:08:38.240 pretty big Hollywood companies. And, and, uh, because it had tested so well and they were so

00:08:43.560 optimistic about it, they were like, we're going to do multiple movies with you in the future.

00:08:47.440 So you were feeling really good.

00:08:49.040 Oh yeah. And, uh, and then on Friday afternoon, the numbers start coming in from the East coast

00:08:54.560 and within a couple hours, you, it's a math equation. You can tell how the movie is going

00:08:59.380 to do that weekend, how it's going to do.

00:09:00.880 Like election night or something.

00:09:02.040 Yes, exactly.

00:09:02.880 Yeah.

00:09:03.460 And, uh, it just totally failed. And, uh,

00:09:06.720 Man, that must've been just such a difficult feeling to go through. Not only did you put all

00:09:12.240 that effort in, but you have voices in your head telling you, I mean, literal voices,

00:09:16.060 people saying this is going to be a huge success and we'll really be kind of the springboard

00:09:20.560 for you. I can't imagine the disappointment.

00:09:22.820 I was, yeah, I mean, I was devastated and my wife and I were home alone. It was a Friday

00:09:27.000 afternoon and just so confused because the things that had happened to lead up to that

00:09:33.720 point had felt so God led, like there were so many doors that had opened surprisingly.

00:09:38.520 And again, giving, getting some of these big companies that normally would never do a faith

00:09:42.720 based project, but really were interested in it and excited about it.

00:09:46.060 And then it totally bombs. And you're thinking, well, this, this doesn't make sense because

00:09:50.120 God, God's not the author of failure. So clearly, I guess I was wrong. He wasn't behind this. I

00:09:55.460 thought he was behind this, but I guess he wasn't. And, uh, when I was home alone with my wife,

00:10:01.680 there was this moment where we were in different rooms and she, she came into the kitchen where I

00:10:05.920 was getting something to eat. And she says, I feel like God is placing on my heart really clearly,

00:10:10.980 like as clearly as if he was saying it out loud, read the story of the feeding of the 5,000 in the

00:10:15.900 Bible. When, when Jesus was, had been preaching for several days and the crowd was starving and,

00:10:21.940 and a boy brings five loaves and two fish and he multiplies the loaves and fish and, and feeds 5,000

00:10:27.160 people. And so we didn't know why we were supposed to read that story and what it meant, but so we're

00:10:31.920 reading it and trying to glean something from it. And one thing we noticed was that, uh, the reason that

00:10:37.220 the people were so hungry was Jesus's fault. He's the one who'd been talking for so long. He,

00:10:41.200 he, he brought them to that place of hunger where the only thing left to satisfy it was a miracle.

00:10:46.580 So we thought, oh, okay, maybe God is behind this and he's bringing us to this place of desperation.

00:10:53.440 And now a miracle's coming, you know, maybe the box office numbers will magically turn around this

00:10:57.540 weekend and, and we're going to be able to have this great story to tell. And that didn't happen.

00:11:01.540 In fact, that night, the numbers got, got even a little worse. It was almost like God was saying,

00:11:05.580 that's not the lesson that I have for you in the story, but we didn't know. We were just trying

00:11:09.100 to figure out what is it that we're trying to learn, you know, that we need to learn from this.

00:11:13.060 And, um, that night at, uh, four o'clock in the morning, I'm on, I'm writing a memo,

00:11:18.860 a 15 page memo about everything that went wrong and what I need to learn from it and why the mistakes

00:11:25.120 I made and why this was my fault and trying to solve the issue. So that just doesn't happen again.

00:11:29.780 And just a message pops up on my computer through Facebook from someone I've never met,

00:11:34.920 just a Facebook friend. Didn't even say hi. All he said was, remember, it's not your job to feed

00:11:40.620 the 5,000. It's only to provide the loaves and fish. Wow. Like just, and I'm like, I typed back,

00:11:47.520 I'm like, what are you doing up at four in the morning? That was my first question. And he's like,

00:11:50.160 well, I'm on the other side of the world. I'm in Romania. I'm visiting my brother. I said,

00:11:54.680 do you mind me asking why you said that? And he goes, oh, that, that wasn't me.

00:11:58.420 God told me to tell that to you. And in that moment, my life changed because a, I felt more

00:12:05.880 than ever, like God was present and in this and watching and had, you know, had my interests in

00:12:14.880 mind, you know, and I felt, I felt, I felt more cared for in that moment than ever, because it was

00:12:20.640 like, he was saying, yeah, this movie failed, but I've got something for you in it. And, um, but then also

00:12:27.480 that concept, this is the answer to your question. I know it's a long way to get to it, but, but

00:12:31.140 you're asking if I was surprised in that moment in my early forties, for the first time in my life,

00:12:39.680 I stopped caring about the results for the first time. I was someone who felt responsible for results.

00:12:46.140 I felt responsible for success or failure, even if it was something that was God breathed, um,

00:12:52.140 or God inspired. And, uh, and so for the first time I was like, okay, all right, I'm going to get

00:12:58.060 on this plan of the five loaves and two fish that I provide need to be good and healthy so that if God

00:13:05.120 chooses to multiply them, they can feed people. But if not, that's up to him. The results aren't up to

00:13:11.160 me anymore. The, uh, the success or failure isn't up to me how it's used or not used is not up to me.

00:13:17.620 When I present my five loaves and two fish to God and he deems them worthy, there were transactions

00:13:22.660 over. And I, I really embrace that. And it became a superpower in many ways. I stopped thinking about

00:13:29.660 goals and trying to achieve and numbers and success. And I just literally focused on what's in front of

00:13:37.520 me and what can I do? And if I, if I'm in God's will, if I feel like what I'm doing is, is, is right.

00:13:43.320 And what he wants. And that's, that's all I'm focused on. And so am I surprised that the show

00:13:49.140 ended up blowing up based on a short film that I did for my church? Like it was several months later

00:13:54.760 after my big failure, I had the script for a short film about the birth of Christ and perspective of

00:13:59.240 the shepherds that I had written and put on the shelf. Cause I was doing this big movie and I said to

00:14:05.760 my church, you know, do we want to do this? And they said, yes, that's when I got the idea for the

00:14:09.520 show for the show. And, uh, but I didn't think the show was going to get made cause you know,

00:14:14.920 there's not people lining up around the block to do a Jesus show. And I was coming off of a career

00:14:18.880 failure. So, uh, this short film ended up going out on social media, crowdfunded $10 million for

00:14:25.340 season one of the chosen. It shattered the all-time crowdfunding record. All these things I thought

00:14:28.960 were ridiculous, but I was on the loaves and fishes plan. So I'm like, you know what? It's not my job

00:14:34.060 to worry about that. So I'm not surprised because God can do anything, but I wouldn't have been

00:14:40.300 surprised if it would have failed as well for whatever you want to consider failure. But

00:14:44.260 if nothing would have happened from the chosen, I wouldn't have been surprised by that either.

00:14:47.780 So I'm just on this, I'm just making loaves and fish. The blank, the blank screen for season four,

00:14:54.160 the scripts that I'm writing now doesn't care about how successful the show has been. I still have

00:14:58.320 to try to write a show that is good and honoring. And so again, I know that's a really long answer

00:15:03.660 to your question, but it's good. There's a lot of good lessons in there. It's funny because my dad

00:15:07.260 tells me the same thing because just like in any work that someone does, that a Christian does, 0.91

00:15:12.800 there are times that you feel like, is it really making an impact? Am I really doing the right

00:15:16.940 thing? Or I messed up in saying that. And that wasn't exactly what I wanted to say, or maybe I'm

00:15:21.480 not having the effect that I want. And my dad always just says fishes and loaves. Oh really?

00:15:26.040 Yes. That's the same thing that my dad tells me, even though that passage of scripture is

00:15:30.780 historically true. It's not primarily a metaphor. The principle is there. The principle is there is

00:15:36.440 that God is going to multiply how he wants to multiply. And as you said, the point is not the

00:15:44.460 result. The point is the obedience. The point is that God is going to get glory through our obedience,

00:15:49.920 whether it ends in what we call failure or what we call success. So I'm appreciative of your long

00:15:57.480 answer. There's a lot of good lessons in that. Yeah. And, and the thing is it would have been

00:16:01.700 ridiculous for the boy who provided the loaves and fish to go home to his parents and say,

00:16:05.740 I fed 5,000 people today. Right. Isn't that amazing? Of course not. That's ridiculous. 0.95

00:16:11.200 That's, and that's how I talk about the chosen and people like, wow, are you, are, you know, 0.93

00:16:14.720 are you proud of what the chosen has done? I'm like, I'm not responsible for a hundred million

00:16:19.420 people around the world watching this show like that. I, you know, I feel like my loaves and fish are

00:16:23.440 pretty good and I'm proud of that, but yeah, the multiplication is really not up to me. And, and so

00:16:29.260 yeah, that, that, that metaphor, what's interesting about the story too, is that God could have just

00:16:35.240 could have just multiple multiplied fish and loaves from scratch. Like he could have just waved his

00:16:40.200 hand and all that fish and loaves could have just come from nothing, but he, he does want us to

00:16:45.440 participate. He does use us. And then when it came time to, to distribute it, he had the disciples go

00:16:49.940 hand out all the loaves and fish. I mean, he does part, all the things that he, we don't need him

00:16:55.220 to do. He wants us to do. And that's something really we see throughout scripture that I've

00:17:10.120 noticed that God is a God of processes. He could really do anything automatically. He didn't need,

00:17:16.820 you know, Israel to wander through the wilderness for 40 years. He could have just said, here's the

00:17:22.580 promised land. I got those enemies out. You're good to go. And yet we constantly see him, um,

00:17:28.480 sanctifying and bringing them through challenges and really putting them in a position to where

00:17:33.740 they have to depend on him. And we just have to believe that all of that, all of those processes

00:17:38.400 are for God's glory, even when we don't see it. Yeah. Like the parting of the Red Sea. He still

00:17:44.520 said, I need you to strike your staff on the rock. Like there's always something that he asks us to

00:17:50.200 do to kind of unlock this, what's bigger. It's, it's a fascinating. Yeah. And it's not that he needs

00:17:56.320 our effort. It's just that somehow he gets glory out of it. I imagine that it is a huge undertaking

00:18:04.420 and you kind of just mentioned this when you're thinking, okay, you're not responsible for the

00:18:07.980 millions of people watching this, but I still imagine as you are trying to create a series,

00:18:13.020 the chosen that reflects the life of Christ that is as biblically and historically culturally accurate

00:18:18.220 as possible while still having to take creative license. For example, like Matthew, you depict him

00:18:25.460 as someone who's on the spectrum. We don't see that in the Bible. And so how do you approach that huge

00:18:32.980 task of trying to stay as accurate and grounded as possible while also being creative and creating a

00:18:39.700 series that people really want to watch? Yeah. Well, what's interesting is I would say probably

00:18:44.920 95% of the content of the show isn't directly from scripture. People call it a Bible show. They'll 0.99

00:18:50.260 call it a Jesus show. And I'm, I'm, I'm okay with that, but I'll say this is actually, I mean, 0.77

00:18:55.180 the Bible is for sure the primary source of truth and inspiration for the show, but there's a ton of

00:18:59.700 content that isn't actually directly from scripture. So to your question, it's a, it's a,

00:19:04.080 it's a dangerous proposition. You know, you're walking a fine line, especially as someone like

00:19:07.500 myself who loves the Bible. And I know that people who watch it, the majority of people who watch it

00:19:12.040 are going to be wanting us to be remain faithful to the scriptures as much as possible. We operate

00:19:16.860 from the, this question, is this plausible? Whatever we write that is that didn't come from

00:19:23.480 scripture, is this plausible culturally, historically, and does it fit within the character and intentions

00:19:30.840 of Jesus in the gospels, even if it's not directly from them, or even if we don't know if it's fact or

00:19:35.740 not. So for example, Matthew being on the spectrum, uh, is that plausible? I think so. Why? Well, we,

00:19:42.880 this is, this is a good, uh, example of how we approach the show in general. We start with what

00:19:48.120 we know from scripture. So we know that Matthew was a tax collector. Uh, that means he was a numbers guy.

00:19:54.220 Uh, he, we know he's a facts guy. The first chapter of his book is a genealogy divided into three

00:20:00.400 sections of 14 names a piece. Uh, we know that he chose a profession that made him an outcast

00:20:05.880 hated by the Jews for betraying his people by being a tax collector and working for the Romans

00:20:11.080 disrespected by the Romans for being Jewish. All of these things, we're, we're, we're writing them

00:20:16.160 down on a, on a big piece of paper as we're formulating the character of Matthew. And I'm

00:20:20.980 someone who's very familiar with the autism world. I have autism in my family. I've done a lot of work in

00:20:25.460 the special needs community. So I know autism very, very closely. And, uh, I'm like, these are,

00:20:30.560 these are traits of Asperger's. These are traits of numbers, facts, uh, socially outcast,

00:20:36.360 but maybe comfortable with that because maybe you prefer to be a little bit, uh, alone. And we

00:20:42.860 thought, what if, what if Matthew, what if we could have, what if we could portray him as being on the

00:20:47.140 spectrum? Think of how human that is. Think of how relatable that could be for people. Um,

00:20:52.720 taking the stories from 2000 years ago and actually putting them in to a modern context

00:20:58.360 for the viewer could be really powerful and relatable. Now doing something just to be

00:21:03.900 relatable, that could be a problem. We're not trying to take the gospel. All right,

00:21:07.800 we're going to change it. We're going to make it more. We're going to, we're going to water it down

00:21:10.900 so that people get it. We're going to do something. We're going to try to have more diversity just to

00:21:14.580 be politically correct. Just try to appeal as many people as possible. That would be a problem,

00:21:18.880 but this is plausible. If it's plausible and it happens to allow the viewer to connect even more

00:21:27.180 deeply to the people and see Jesus through the eyes of people who actually followed him,

00:21:31.440 that can be really impactful. So that's how we approach all of these stories that you see in

00:21:35.260 the show. Some come directly from scripture. Some come from our imagination, but I think all of it

00:21:40.820 comes through this filter of plausibility based on a desire to be faithful to the scriptures

00:21:48.420 and to the character and intentions of Jesus in the gospels. It's not easy. It's on dangerous

00:21:54.240 ground. We get, we get a lot of criticism obviously from people who don't want to see

00:21:57.840 anything that's not from scripture, but, uh, but we do believe that it's a, it's a, we're not the

00:22:03.580 Bible. We're not pretending to be the Bible. We're not a replacement for scripture. We never claim to

00:22:07.600 be, we're not adding to scripture because scripture is scripture. That's the Bible. Your Bible hasn't

00:22:12.600 changed since the chosen came out. Uh, we're not adding to it. This is a show about first century

00:22:17.260 Galilee using the Bible as our primary source. Right. Has there been any criticism with every

00:22:23.300 popular project? There's going to be criticism. It's just inevitable. Has there been any criticism

00:22:27.780 that has made you go, Hmm, actually that might be a good point, or it has like caused you to either

00:22:35.400 change direction or at least, I don't know, but think a little bit more deeply about a choice that

00:22:40.380 the series made. I would say not a lot. And here's why, not because I'm arrogant and don't

00:22:46.900 accept criticism. It's because we do so much of that work on the front end. Yeah. So when we do

00:22:52.440 something on, in the show that someone is bothered by, sometimes they'll even say, boy, you know, you,

00:23:00.680 you need to change that. Or why aren't you apologizing for that? We're offended, you know?

00:23:03.900 And I'll say, we, we, we thought through all this deeply on the front end. I mean, I have,

00:23:08.900 I have Bible consultants that I, that I work with. Um, I, I go through a lot of research,

00:23:13.940 a lot of prayer, a lot of, we, we, we take this very, very seriously. So by the time we've released

00:23:19.440 the show, it's very unlikely that someone's going to point out something that we haven't thought of

00:23:24.760 and considered. Now there's been stuff that I, that we missed, you know, whether it's some,

00:23:29.120 some sort of cultural fact, some historical fact that maybe we got wrong. Um,

00:23:33.900 you know, inadvertently, or, you know, maybe slip through the cracks, but when it comes to our

00:23:37.820 biblical approach or our approach to how theology and whatnot, it's unlikely that a YouTube comment

00:23:45.640 is going to suddenly settle 2000 years of debate about the theology of God versus man. And, you know,

00:23:52.400 the, the most controversial thing that we, that we've done to the, to date was, uh, there was about

00:23:56.740 10 seconds of Jesus. He was preparing for the big sermon on the Mount and he's kind of working out

00:24:02.280 some of the things in his head of what he wants to say. And he's working on the turn of phrase.

00:24:06.420 It's kind of like, it's like sermon prep. And there were some people who just were so offended

00:24:10.340 that God, Jesus would ever need to prepare or that he would struggle to come up with the right words

00:24:16.040 or anything like that. And I understand what they're saying. Um, but they would be like, Jesus is

00:24:23.000 God. He would never, never struggle, you know, uh, to think of anything. And then you look at a verse

00:24:29.840 like in Philippians where it says that Jesus did not account to Jesus did not count equality with God

00:24:34.380 as something to be grasped, but he actually gave up a lot of his, the things that he has when he's

00:24:39.080 sitting at the right hand of the father, he didn't have when he was on earth. And so there's a spectrum

00:24:44.120 of, of, of what Jesus may have known or not known how God was he, how man was he? You know,

00:24:50.720 there's a term called the hypostatic union where he was both fully God and fully man. Well, this has been

00:24:55.520 debated and discussed for thousands of years. It's, it's vexed scholars, the world over people

00:25:01.800 who love the Bible can disagree on this issue. And yet a YouTube commenter can say, no, I know it

00:25:07.980 and you're wrong. And I'm going to settle this debate. So I'm using that as an example of,

00:25:12.180 of the kind of thing where the decision to do that on my part was, was made and thought through

00:25:17.880 deeply before we brought it to the world. So their comment isn't going to necessarily make me go,

00:25:23.480 Oh, I never thought of that. Let me change my mind. So. Right. And you're not claiming that those

00:25:28.040 things are not debatable. Right. And so, because as you said, I mean, Jesus is fully God and fully

00:25:33.680 man. A lot of those things of how that manifested itself, what weaknesses he did have, um, as far as

00:25:40.520 even just the weakness of hunger or the weakness of thirst, like how much did that really have an

00:25:45.880 effect on his life and on his mind. And so I think it just goes back to kind of what you were saying,

00:25:50.860 that is it plausible? Not, is it in scripture or is it? Yeah. And I even said, I'm not willing to

00:25:56.500 say that our portrayal in that moment was fact. I don't know that, but neither do you. So let's

00:26:02.640 explore together. You shouldn't be relying on me or the show for your entire theology, theological

00:26:07.840 interpretation of who God is. You should be in a good church. You should be reading the scriptures.

00:26:12.420 That's where this show is a supplement. This show is a, is a, is like, as you just mentioned,

00:26:17.440 it's, it's, it's what we believe a plausible attempt to capture the people of first century

00:26:22.620 Galilee. But I think it's, I think it's good, healthy discussions. Yeah. I would have thought

00:26:27.240 that you would say that the most controversial thing or the thing that caused the most criticism

00:26:31.480 was when Jesus said, I am the law of Moses. And people interpreted that as quoting the Book of

00:26:38.840 Mormon, which I know that you've already answered this. It was not a direct quote from the Book of

00:26:43.260 Mormon, not also a direct quote from scripture. So I would have thought that that was the thing 0.80

00:26:48.640 that caused the most. Well, that episode hasn't come out yet. That was in the trailer. So, so yeah,

00:26:54.360 I must've missed that part. Well, no, no, no. I mean, it's it, well, it was in the trailer. And,

00:26:58.440 and so, yes, I would say you're right. That, that became, uh, one of the most controversial things.

00:27:06.080 Uh, yeah, because, so there's a moment in episode three, which is coming up, uh, this Sunday night,

00:27:11.880 actually, um, that we have our big live stream on, uh, on Christmas, uh, December 25th. Uh, we have

00:27:18.000 our big episode three live stream and that'll get, give everyone the chance to see the scene that has

00:27:23.260 the quote that vexed so many people. So, uh, one of the Pharisees is really upset with Jesus for claiming

00:27:29.560 to be the Messiah, uh, in his own hometown. And, uh, they're saying you're a false prophet. And, uh,

00:27:36.640 because you're a false prophet, we have no choice, but to follow the law of Moses, uh, which of course 0.97

00:27:42.860 says you put to death, false prophets. And Jesus steps up to him and says, I am the law of Moses. 0.68

00:27:47.560 And yes, there, there, a rumor got spread that that's a quote from the book of Mormon. I've never

00:27:52.960 actually read the book of Mormon. Uh, so I, I, you know, even if it had been a quote, I wouldn't have

00:27:58.820 known it. And it's not even a direct quote. Anyway, the quote, I think for the book of Mormon

00:28:01.900 is like, I am the law. I am the law and the light. Yeah. So all that to say, um, yes, that there

00:28:08.740 were some major criticism and controversy came about from that quote. And, uh, what's, what's

00:28:14.340 interesting about it is that I think sometimes people make assumptions even about what you mean

00:28:19.740 from something. So for example, Jesus in that scene, I do believe it's plausible for him to

00:28:26.940 claim. I'm the law of Moses. Uh, many, many people, many scholars would, would consider

00:28:31.740 Jesus to be the living, breathing Torah, the living word, as they say, um, that, that he

00:28:37.040 were, that even though he has fulfilled the law, that doesn't mean the law is done. And

00:28:41.900 it, and of course we believe he in the father coauthored the law. So all of those things are

00:28:45.840 again, theological discussions worthy of, of, of debate that said, what he is doing in that

00:28:52.100 moment is he is asserting authority. So the Pharisee is saying the law of Moses is our

00:28:57.880 authority. And he's going, I'm, I'm your authority. Yeah. So it's like, if someone comes to the,

00:29:03.300 let's say a big authority figure comes to someone's house and, and, uh, and, and, and the person

00:29:08.480 living in the house says, Hey, I'm, you know what, I'm going to call the police. And the person

00:29:12.120 goes, well, I am the police. Now that doesn't necessarily mean they're literally a police officer,

00:29:16.380 but they're saying I'm the authority. Whatever you see as your authority, that's me. That's what

00:29:20.420 Jesus is asserting in that scene. And in the context of the full scene, which you can see in

00:29:24.000 episode three is it's probably the most blatant declaration in the whole show of Jesus as God,

00:29:30.740 Jesus as son of God, Jesus as the savior. So a lot of what I kind of chuckled to myself going,

00:29:35.620 a lot of the critics of this moment are actually, if they saw the whole scene or seeing, it's probably

00:29:39.760 the most blatant depiction of Jesus as the authority that will ever show. So, but you bring up a great

00:29:46.020 example, which is that when we're doing 56 episodes of this show, that's going to be about

00:29:50.980 50 hours of television portraying Jesus, the most famous and influential man in history.

00:29:56.800 There's going to be moments that everyone has a disagreement with, even as someone like myself

00:30:02.440 who loves God's word, the most staunch practicing evangelical will at some point in this show see

00:30:09.500 something that they don't fully agree with. The hope is that you have a little bit of grace and go,

00:30:14.040 there's things on which we can disagree. It doesn't mean that you're a heretic. It doesn't

00:30:17.860 mean that you're trying to lead people away from the authentic Jesus. It means that there's a lot

00:30:22.880 of things that we don't fully know and understand. Let's wrestle with them.

00:30:37.740 The number one question that I got from my audience, as you can probably guess, was about

00:30:43.060 Mormonism and about some recent comments that you made. You clarified those comments. You said,

00:30:48.500 you know, there are some LDS people that I know we love the same Jesus. And then you kind of clarified

00:30:54.900 that to say not that LDS and evangelical Christians have the same theology, but that the ones you know

00:31:02.640 love the same Jesus. I mean, as you know, some people have a problem with that. Mormonism does not

00:31:07.200 believe that Jesus is God, believes that Jesus is a son of God and became like God, was actually a

00:31:13.340 brother of Satan. So it's not the same Jesus. It's not the same God at all. And the differences are

00:31:19.780 extremely fundamental. I would say much more than, you know, Catholicism or things like that. And so,

00:31:26.040 you know, some people were a little concerned, concerned about that.

00:31:31.060 Well, out of context, you take the phrase that I said, where I said, we love the same Jesus. And

00:31:36.360 they said, okay, Dallas is saying that all Mormons, all LDS folks love the same Jesus as evangelicals.

00:31:42.760 Now, I'm not going to speak for the LDS church. But what I was saying, and I think my wording was

00:31:49.740 sloppy. I think that I could have clarified a little bit better. I do have some LDS friends.

00:31:53.980 I have LDS friends who I would say don't necessarily love the same Jesus that I do.

00:31:58.800 I do have some that I have spent hundreds of hours with. I have prayed with. I have wept with. I have

00:32:07.540 gone to Israel with. I have spent hundreds of hours of talking. And I would say that those friends of

00:32:15.900 mine that I know that I've spent tons of time with, when we're talking particularly about Jesus of

00:32:20.220 Nazareth, particularly the Jesus of the Gospels, it is the same Jesus. They, they love that. Like

00:32:26.040 the, the, the, the show that like the Jesus that I'm portraying in the show, the Jesus that we

00:32:30.820 read about in the scriptures. I firmly believe that, and I, you know, in my deep conversations

00:32:37.700 with them, that, that we're, when we're talking about Jesus of Nazareth, we're talking about the

00:32:41.320 same one now. But they may have John one, that the word was God. That is not what Mormons believe. 0.91

00:32:49.180 Well, that may not be the official statement of the LDS church, but I would say that I know some

00:32:55.000 LDS folks who would say, I believe in John, John chapter one. Now that may put them in misalignment

00:33:00.320 with their church. I don't know. I don't get into the details of, of whether or not what, what,

00:33:05.040 what their church thinks of it. I'm just saying I have, you know, I I've literally asked those very

00:33:09.360 questions to some of my friends and I've gone, well, what do you think of John chapter one? I

00:33:12.880 am in the beginning was the word and the word was God and the word was with God. They go, I believe

00:33:17.500 that. I go, well, it seems to contradict this piece. And they go, well, that piece might, might've

00:33:21.480 been misinterpreted by some people. So I'm just saying, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not disagreeing

00:33:25.840 with you. I would say, if you said to me, does the LDS church as a whole, and does the evangelical

00:33:31.700 world as a whole share the same fundamental theological beliefs about Jesus? I would say no, but I would

00:33:38.200 say even within the evangelical world, there are evangelicals who I would say don't necessarily

00:33:42.400 know Jesus as the Bible is portraying, because as, as, as Bible is, is, is contending, because

00:33:49.460 I just don't believe in a broad, broadly stating about any one people group. This is what they

00:33:57.600 all believe. And this is what they all know. I wouldn't say that about any particular people

00:34:02.320 group. I've, I've known evangelical, I've sat next to evangelicals and churches who I would

00:34:06.820 say, yeah, we're going to the same church, but we don't necessarily understand or believe

00:34:10.980 the same things. So I'm, I'm acknowledging that in the, in the interview that I did several

00:34:17.820 years ago, that my wording could have been sloppy. It's so that I wanted to make sure it

00:34:21.460 didn't sound like I'm speaking for an entire people group or speaking about an entire people

00:34:24.900 group. I would just say that there are, I think all of us, I think you've, I think all

00:34:29.440 of us have experienced this. If you're, if you're a conservative, if you're a Christian, if you're

00:34:33.180 an evangelical, if you're a Catholic, we've all experienced being painted with a broad

00:34:39.060 brush based on the, the, the name of our tribe that we're in. And I've, I've seen it

00:34:47.360 happen multiple times that because I'm part of a particular label that there's an assumption

00:34:52.780 made about that I must accept or believe everything about that's typically associated with that

00:34:59.140 label. And I would say that there's oftentimes exceptions. And, and, and, and I would say

00:35:04.360 that there, there can be exceptions in this case. And again, I'm not saying that we all

00:35:11.320 agree with the same thing and that we all have the same beliefs about everything. But, but I

00:35:15.140 would say that, uh, that I was speaking about specific people in that case.

00:35:19.520 Yeah. And I would just encourage people go back and listen to, um, Thursday's episode.

00:35:24.860 We talked to a woman who spent 30 years in the Mormon church and then became a Christian. And

00:35:29.500 it's not saying that everyone with the, with a label believes the same things, but it is looking

00:35:35.180 at particular doctrines and just making sure that people know, uh, the true gospel, what is a works

00:35:40.520 based religion, um, versus what is by grace through faith. And that is what Christianity is

00:35:46.340 founded upon. Um, okay.

00:35:48.620 Let me say one more, if you don't mind, one more clarifier too. I have spoken with,

00:35:53.840 I would say it's a conservative estimate to say dozens, like personal conversations with dozens

00:36:00.240 of people from the LDS faith who have said to me, because of the chosen, I am finding myself

00:36:07.620 closer to the, to Jesus and closer to grace than I ever have in my entire life. That I am finding

00:36:15.440 myself falling more in love with Jesus than the church. And that to me, um,

00:36:21.560 And that would be a big shift for Mormons who really see church, the LDS church as the authority.

00:36:27.040 So that's.

00:36:27.900 No, I mean, I know, I know people who, for whom their church, LDS or Catholic or any, any kind

00:36:34.060 of formal religion is in many, almost like God is almost like the thing that they worship,

00:36:40.380 the thing that is their connection to God. And as an evangelical, I passionately believe that

00:36:46.120 you don't need anything formal or anything to, to, to, to connect you to God, that you can have a

00:36:51.800 direct relationship with Jesus. And, uh, I have talked to dozens personally myself and heard from

00:36:59.580 hundreds online or even thousands of people who've said, I am finding myself loving Jesus more and

00:37:07.120 finding a personal relationship with Jesus more so than my church, more so than anything formal,

00:37:14.240 anything, uh, any, any, any, any person or thing as a connection that I'm, I'm actually gave it,

00:37:20.220 getting direct access to Jesus because of this. And so, uh, even if by some chance I disagree with

00:37:26.520 a viewer about someone else's faith, I can tell you that the chosen itself, the content of the chosen

00:37:32.400 itself, I'm responsible for, it's not influenced by any religion. It's not influenced by any church,

00:37:38.240 any person. It comes from a personal belief in Jesus as the son of God, as the ultimate authority

00:37:44.280 as God. And, uh, and if that can actually have an influence and an impact on people who maybe

00:37:49.820 have in the past not been able to have a personal relationship because of whether it's a lack of faith

00:37:57.500 or sometimes it's because of the idolatry of their own church, the idolatry of, of, uh, their own

00:38:02.800 habits, uh, the idolatry of, of their own vices, but you can actually get past all of that.

00:38:08.920 Yeah. And I just want my listeners and my viewers to know, to make clear that Mormonism is not a

00:38:14.480 denomination of Christianity, that there are fundamental differences. Go back and listen to

00:38:19.280 Thursday's episode. But the reason why I am not concerned with some people say, well, I know there

00:38:26.400 are Mormons who work with the company that distribute. The reason why that doesn't, to me, 0.96

00:38:33.320 mean that someone should not watch the chosen is because from what I've seen, Mormon theology

00:38:37.300 is not influencing the chosen. It is scripture. And so there are lots of different people of lots

00:38:45.620 of different faiths that we work with that aren't necessarily influencing our work. There are people

00:38:51.060 that would be like saying that you shouldn't listen to Relatable because Blaze TV distributes it and the

00:38:56.040 people who run Blaze TV might have, you know, different beliefs than I do. And so that is

00:39:01.400 not my concern. Including LDS. Yeah. But I didn't want, but I did want to just kind of give us the

00:39:06.180 opportunity to kind of talk about that and hear you clarify it because I know a lot of people,

00:39:10.320 you know, did have questions. Yeah, absolutely. And I think those are healthy questions. And I would

00:39:13.800 just say, like you just said, even if we end up disagreeing on some of these issues,

00:39:19.780 I don't believe there's a disagreement about the content of the show. And I've said from the

00:39:26.760 beginning, the show speaks for itself. And I am a flawed, sinful human being. And regardless of our

00:39:36.140 conversation about LDS folks, there's plenty of other things about me or something that I,

00:39:42.020 things that I've done, things that I still do, whatever that we may disagree about or that I

00:39:46.420 struggle with. Like, do not look at the show as the Bible. Do not look at me as God. Do not look

00:39:52.820 at Jonathan Rumi, who plays Jesus as Jesus. We are flawed human beings, unlike the Bible.

00:39:58.340 The Bible is perfect. The Bible is what you are looking to as your authority. This is a show that's 0.90

00:40:03.500 going to have, that's made by a flawed person. And I'm not claiming direct scriptural authority

00:40:09.120 or inspiration from God. I'm doing my best to try to give a plausible account of the truth

00:40:16.300 and intentions of Jesus in the Gospels.

00:40:29.440 I think we have a short clip of one of the, is it one of the upcoming episodes?

00:40:35.160 So this is episode two, which I, which I would have, I think aired last night.

00:40:38.600 This is a, this is a scene with a little James, who's one of the disciples who is played by Jordan

00:40:45.800 Walker Ross, who has cerebral palsy, mild cerebral palsy and scoliosis. And when I decided to cast him

00:40:51.160 as one of the disciples, I remember thinking, oh boy, speaking of theological implications and debates

00:40:56.820 and all that, we're going to have to tackle this one of why doesn't God heal everybody? Because we can

00:41:02.460 look around and see that, you know, Jesus, while he was here on earth, probably we don't see too many,

00:41:08.460 we don't see any examples in the Gospels of him not healing someone. So that may, you know, that I

00:41:13.620 know some people had questions when they watched the scene that we're about to show of, of, of one of

00:41:18.100 his own disciples saying, hey, you're sending us out two by two to go heal. And I'm not healed.

00:41:23.420 Yeah.

00:41:23.660 Why is that?

00:41:24.580 Yeah. Okay. Let's go ahead and play that.

00:41:26.280 I wanted to ask you a question, please. You're sending us out with the ability to heal the

00:41:34.020 second lane. Yes, that, that is what you said. Yes. So you're telling me that I have the ability

00:41:42.080 to heal. Forgive me. I just find that difficult to imagine with my condition.

00:41:56.280 Which you haven't healed. Do you want to be healed?

00:42:05.760 Yes, of course. If, if that's possible. I think you've seen enough to know it's possible.

00:42:11.780 Then why haven't you?

00:42:18.660 So this is an episode that's playing right before Christmas. And Christmas is a beautiful time of

00:42:25.840 year. But for a lot of people, it's a difficult time of year, whether they have been through

00:42:30.500 tough experiences surrounding Christmas, or whether they're dealing with some kind of

00:42:35.040 chronic illness or trial right now. And they're asking this very question. They're asking, well,

00:42:40.300 why won't God fix it? I know that he can. He's good. He loves me. He's powerful. And yet he's not

00:42:46.500 healing me. He's not healing my loved one. He's not fixing it. What is the message of hope to those

00:42:51.800 people going through that right now? Well, yeah. In the, in the, in the scene in episode two,

00:42:56.440 Jesus says, yeah, it's a good story. If, if when I do miracles, you know, that's a good story.

00:43:03.520 But, but when you think about it, sometimes even we as human beings, even when we experience a miracle

00:43:08.100 or a great joy or some sort of wonderful resolution to a problem that we face on earth,

00:43:13.380 even then, sometimes we forget it. Sometimes it doesn't stick. Sometimes we reject God even after

00:43:18.620 that takes place. Sometimes the best story and sometimes the best example of God's faithfulness

00:43:25.220 is in the midst of pain and struggle. When we can still trust God, that is oftentimes what allows us

00:43:33.420 to have the most impact on people, because there are so many people in this world who don't necessarily

00:43:38.880 believe in who are hurting. And we can say, you know what, God hurt, God hurts sometimes too.

00:43:43.020 Jesus experienced suffering, pain. He didn't promise that he would alleviate all suffering

00:43:48.920 and pain. If anything, he promised that we would experience a lot of it on this earth.

00:43:52.840 The book of James talks about, there's a verse that says, consider it joy when you experience trials

00:43:58.600 of many kinds because the testing of your faith produces endurance. And it's similar to, you know,

00:44:08.020 working out, you know, like when you, the process of working out oftentimes means lifting things that

00:44:13.440 weren't meant to be lifted and, and causing your body, pushing your body past what it, what you think

00:44:18.720 it might be capable of. And that produces strength. And so during this holiday season with, sometimes

00:44:24.600 it's a, it almost puts a spotlight on your suffering because you're seeing everyone having so much joy

00:44:29.820 and happiness. And you're like, why aren't I experiencing that? And a little James says later

00:44:35.040 in that scene, he's like, I, I know it's easy to say I'm fearfully and wonderfully made. It's the song

00:44:42.200 of David, you know, it's a Psalm, but it doesn't make experiencing this any easier. And it doesn't make

00:44:48.560 me feel like less of a burden. And Jesus talks about how all of us have something, all of us,

00:44:54.120 every single person that you see successful or not successful has something in their life that is a

00:44:58.800 struggle or a hindrance or a, or a pain point or some piece of suffering and finding joy in the midst

00:45:06.420 of suffering. It's not easy, but when you have a relationship with God and you have the ability to think

00:45:11.900 on an eternal perspective, as opposed to a temporary one on when you can get on the joy program instead of the

00:45:18.440 happiness program, because happiness comes and goes, but that joy that, that is can exist even in the midst

00:45:23.480 of, of, of pain. It's difficult. And I don't think in, in one minute, I'm going to be able to,

00:45:28.160 to, to, to give the answer to how to find it beyond just all I can tell you is that I've never met

00:45:34.940 anyone who didn't end up finding a relationship with, with Jesus, who didn't get more on that joy

00:45:40.760 plan as opposed to the happiness plan. And I do think at the risk of sounding cheesy, that's what

00:45:45.940 makes Christmas so awesome. As you go, when Jesus was born, this thing that we're celebrating,

00:45:52.620 the Messiah, the savior of the universe actually came to a stable to parents who were really poor

00:45:58.500 and scared and in over their heads and just as freaked out as sometimes we get. And that's part

00:46:04.180 of what the chosen is all about is trying to help you understand that the, that the questions and the

00:46:08.880 challenges and the, the, the doubts that they faced 2000 years ago are the same that we face today.

00:46:15.420 And now hopefully you can see that the answer and the solution to those questions and doubts

00:46:22.840 is the same today as it was 2000 years ago. Yes. And amen. Well, thank you so much. Thanks

00:46:27.900 for taking the time to talk to us. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks so much for having

00:46:30.840 me on. I appreciate this. Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas. Yes.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - December 19, 2022

Ep 726 ｜ 'The Chosen：' Questions & Controversies ｜ Guest： Dallas Jenkins

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