Ep 736 ｜ How to Love Your Job & Find Your Calling ｜ Guest： Jordan Raynor
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Summary
Whether you're a stay-at-home mom, a publicist, or a podcaster, we all as Christians are trying to figure out how to work well in a way that glorifies God. Jordan Rayner, author of the books Called to Create and The Word Before Work, is an expert on this subject. He has an incredible, refreshing perspective on the theology of work and how we actually apply it to our lives.
Transcript
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Work. Can't live without it, but sometimes you feel like you can't live with it. Maybe you're
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discontent in your job. You don't know what God is calling you to do, or you just don't know how
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to honor God and find true and deep fulfillment in your job. Whether you're a stay-at-home mom,
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a publicist, a podcaster, we all as Christians are trying to figure out how to work well
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in a way that glorifies God. Jordan Rayner, author of the books Called to Create and The Word Before
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Work, is an expert on this subject. He has an incredible, refreshing perspective on the theology
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of work and how we actually apply it to our lives, apply it to our work for the good of others,
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ourselves, and for the glory of God. Wow. I was so encouraged by this conversation. I know this is
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going to be a popular episode. Listen to it multiple times. Share it with your friends.
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This is a great one for the new year. Without further ado, here's our new friend, Jordan Rayner.
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Jordan, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. For those who may not know,
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can you tell us who you are and what you do? Yeah. So, hey, Allie, it's great to be with you.
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My name is Jordan Rayner. I live in Tampa, Florida, and my mission in life is to help
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Christians connect their faith with the work that they do 40, 50 hours a week, whether that's as an
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entrepreneur, a barista, an accountant, a stay-at-home parent, whatever that work is.
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Because when we read the scriptures, it's clear that work is of great importance, both now and for
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eternity to the God of the Bible. And what inspired you to start writing about this? I mean, work has
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been a fact of life for all of human existence. And so you decided to kind of approach it, though,
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in a new way. Why'd you do that? Yes, this is really rooted in my personal story. So before I was
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creating content like this full-time, I spent 10 years as a tech entrepreneur. And about halfway
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through that journey, I was in the process of selling my second company, trying to figure out
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what I was going to do next with my life. And when you sell two companies, like the natural thing is
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you go, you know, you start a third, right? So that was the plan. But for a hot minute there,
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my wife and I were very seriously considering planning a church because, and I think a lot of
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our listeners will resonate with this, I was just overcome with guilt of how dare I want to go start
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another business. When there is a need for people to move into mud huts, 5,000 miles away from home
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to make disciples and plant churches. And so we were really seriously considering planning a church
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for a little bit. And by the grace of God alone, I had this godly mentor pull me aside after church
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one Sunday. He's like, Hey, I hear you're thinking about planning a church. And I'm like, yeah. And I'm
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thinking this guy's going to like pat me on the back, maybe write me my first check. And I'll never
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forget. He just looked me like square in the eyes. He's like, Jordan, yeah, that just sounds like
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really dumb for you personally. He's like, Jordan, you're a talented entrepreneur. You have served
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your investors and your teams through the ministry of excellence. Why do you think you have to go
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plan a church in order to do ministry? Don't you get that your work is ministry? I was like, I have
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no idea what you're talking about. And so he told me, he's like, Hey, listen, in light of this
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conversation, go back to your Bible, read Genesis one and two that you probably read a hundred times
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in light of this conversation and tell me what you find. And what I found changed my life forever.
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I found that before God tells us that he is loving or holy or omnipotent, he tells us that he is a God
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who works created as the first verb in the Bible. And pretty much the only thing we know about God
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through this first couple of chapters of Genesis. And then I saw that long before the great commission
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comes onto the scene where Jesus tells us to make disciples of all nations right there in Genesis one
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is the first commission to humankind to fill the earth, to subdue it, to rule it in line with God's
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character and his law. And that transformed my perspective about work. Work is not a means to an end.
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Work is not the curse of sin. Work is God's first gift to humanity. And it's the only gift that never
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really ends because we're going to be working forever in eternity with Jesus by our side. So
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that message changed my life. I was like, I got to go all in on this.
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Yes. I remember hearing a few years ago, the truth that work is not a result of the fall, but as you
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said, it predates the fall, that Adam was placed in the garden to what? To sit there and enjoy the
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fruit? No, to work and to keep it. And so that was before sin entered the world. So that does disrupt
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kind of our idea of work being a necessary evil, just something that you do to get to Friday.
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So how does that tangibly change then how we work as an accountant, as a barista, as a stay-at-home mom?
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Because I mean, a lot of people feel like their work is just kind of purposeless outside of making
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themselves and maybe making their boss money. Maybe they don't like it. Maybe it's really
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mundane. But how does that reality that work predates the fall, that it's not a necessary evil,
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how does that tangibly change how we work on a day-to-day basis?
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Yeah, it's a great question. So number one, I think it helps us look for the inherent goodness
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of our work, right? As you pointed out, Allie, paradise, contrary to what we think about the
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Garden of Eden, paradise wasn't a vacation. It was a vocation that human beings had, right?
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And so that allows us to see, okay, yes, my work is difficult today because we live on the other
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side of Genesis 3, but there's something inherently good about this thing because this is the very thing
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that God made me to do in this world, right? So that's number one. Number two, I think practically,
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I think we can lament over what's hard about our work, what's difficult about our work,
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right? And just cry out to God. We forget the Exodus, second book of the Bible. The whole impetus
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for the Exodus was slavish labor, was people crying out to God and saying, hey, this work is too hard,
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and he came and saved the people. So I think we can lament over the hard things about our work.
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Third, we can look forward expectantly to the day in which work will be perfect once again.
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And I think we can get glimpses of that now, but we're not going to see it in full until Jesus brings
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heaven to earth where heaven will ultimately be. And man, we have such distorted theology around
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heaven. We think of it as this glorified retirement home in the clouds. That is an unbiblical
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lie from the pit of hell that steals our hope and anticipation for the future. Isaiah 65 says,
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God's chosen people will long enjoy the work of their hands. They will not labor in vain. On the new
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earth, we will have good, perfect work to do. And if that doesn't fuel your hope and anticipation
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for eternity, man, I don't know what does. That gets me fired up.
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So the curse of work is not the work itself or even that it's strenuous. The curse came that
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you will work and sometimes produce nothing. That's exactly right. Sometimes our work will
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be futile. That's right. Yes. And the redeemed in the renewed world, though, that curse is reversed
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and we are no longer laboring in vain. So tell me about that because, you know, we were talking
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about work on yesterday's episode and I almost said, you know, we are going to be working and
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the new heaven and the new earth. But I wasn't sure that I was exactly right. I knew that work
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came before the fall, but I hadn't thought about it quite enough. And then I heard you say on another
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podcast that that's true. So tell me, tell me about that because honestly, like I like working
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that, that excites me. So like, tell me the scriptural basis for that and what that looks
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like. Yeah. So there's a couple of scriptures I would point you to. Number one, we already
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talked about Genesis one and two, right? Because work existed prior to the fall of Genesis three,
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we can know that work and not just our physical bodies and souls will be redeemed. Jesus came to
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make all things new, not just human beings. He came to win back everything Satan stole in Genesis
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three. So if Jesus's victory is going to be total and complete, we believe it will be.
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That's got to include the world of war. That's number one. Number two, Revelation 22, five,
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right? We think of Revelation as kind of the end of this narrative. Heaven is the end.
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Revelation 22 is just the beginning because Revelation 22, five tells us that we, you and
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me as human beings will reign forever and ever with Christ on the new earth, which makes sense
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because that's exactly what we were created to do in Genesis one. God's never wanted to do his work
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in this world on his own. He's always wanted to do it in partnership with other human beings.
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And the third passage I would point you to is what I just mentioned. Isaiah 65, go read the whole
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chapter. It's incredible. This incredible vision. It says that we are going to build houses
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on the new earth. We're going to plant vineyards and long enjoy the work of our hands. Our labor
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will not be in vain, right? So here's the deal. This is what's exciting to me in the present.
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We can get a taste of that right now, that not in vain language that might sound familiar to a lot of
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our listeners. It's from a very famous verse in first Corinthians, first Corinthians 1558, where Paul
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says that any labor we do in the Lord today in the Lord, basically meaning for his purposes and his
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glory and not our own is not in vain. Somehow making a latte, not for my glory, but for the glory of God
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and the good of others is somehow not in vain. Somehow is going to contribute and shape our eternal
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future with God. That's mind boggling. Yes. Let's talk about that a little more because I've heard you
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say that one of the reasons why the seemingly mundane and the seemingly meaningless, so the diaper
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changes or the crunchy numbers for a client or the waiting tables, one of the reasons that that is
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eternal, that that shapes eternity, that that matters in eternity is because it brings pleasure to God
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and God's pleasure is eternal. So talk a little bit more about that. Oh man, I would love to. Thank you
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for giving me a chance to see. So one of my favorite verses in all scripture, because I, let me back up for a
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second. I think a lot of times in our modern context, Christians think that the only way we can bring
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pleasure to God is by going on a mission trip. We're sharing the gospel with our coworkers. We're giving
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money to our church. Psalm 37, 23 says that's a lie. It says that God delights in quote, every detail
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end quote of the lives of the godly. It goes on to say, right? Every single detail, right? So now I can,
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I can bring God pleasure when I'm making a latte or changing a diaper. Five quick ways we can bring
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God eternal pleasure in the mundane alley. Number one, we bring him pleasure when we obey his commands,
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right? It's exactly what first John three 22 says. We keep his commands and give him pleasure when he
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sees what we are doing. So if you make that latte without trying to exploit a customer, change that
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diaper, not begrudgingly, but thankfully that God has given you this child that contributes to God's
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eternal pleasure. Number two, we bring him pleasure when we pursue excellence in all things. This is the
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whole point of the parable of the talents, right? Come and share the master's happiness. Number three,
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we bring him pleasure. I think by doing work that brings us pleasure, because remember Genesis one work
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was a gift he gave to us, right? And when I give gifts to my kids, I don't want them to play with
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them begrudgingly. I want them to enjoy them. So Ali, you love your work when you do your work and find
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joy in it and give praise to God for giving you that work that brings him eternal pleasure. Two more quick
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ones. Number four, we bring him eternal pleasure by working with him and not just for him, right? Not being
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so obsessed with God's mission in the world that we forget God himself and praying to him and being with
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him throughout the day. And then finally, I think we bring God eternal pleasure by just taking time to
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wonder at his work while we work. Wonder at the coincidences that helped us to land that deal.
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Wonder at the creative connections that God is making for us. Wonder at the raw materials he's
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given us. Like, I keep coming back to a latte. I don't know why, right? Like the almonds that he's
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given me to make that latte. As we take time to wonder at those things, it brings him pleasure because he
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sees every detail of our lives and delights in the lives of the godly.
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So doing your job, no matter what that job is, as long as it is not sin, with joy, with excellence,
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with gratitude, with integrity, all of these things bring God pleasure. God's pleasure is eternal and
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therefore doing our job well and in a way that honors the Lord is somehow in some kind of mysterious
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way eternal. It shapes eternity. So every little thing we do, as you mentioned, every detail of the
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lives of the godly actually matters, not just in the here and the now, but forever. That's really
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significant. That's mind-boggling. I can summarize it real tightly like this. Anything you do with
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excellence and love and in accordance with God's commands will shape the eternal pleasure of God.
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And what does that look like practically? I don't know. Here's one guess. We already talked about we
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know there's going to be work on the new earth, right? We're going to be with Jesus literally on
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the new earth. I don't think it's crazy that one of the ways this will manifest itself physically is
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you're going to be working at your vocation on the new earth. Allie, what do you want to do in the
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new earth? You want to be podcasting? Oh, I don't know about that. I don't know if I want to be
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podcasting. You know, I don't know because I don't know exactly what it'll be like. Will I have a
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different gift? Will I finally be able to sing? Who knows? Who knows? All right. So let's say you're
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singing on the new earth, right? And Jesus comes up to you. Hebrews 6, 10 tells us he remembers
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everything that we do, right? Jesus comes up and he said, Hey, Allie, I remember in the former age
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when you had an opportunity to embellish the truth in order to achieve goal X, Y, or Z, and you didn't
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do that. I saw that. I remember that act of faithfulness and that brought the father great
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pleasure, right? Like that's, that's not out of the realm of possibility. I think we could use our
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biblically formed imaginations to assume that that's one of the ways that this will literally
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shape eternity in our interactions with the risen Christ, right? Like that should motivate us
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in the present to store up as many of those moments, those eternal moments as we possibly can,
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just by being faithful and excellent and loving in the present.
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And, you know, one thing we have a lot on this podcast, or one thing we talk about a lot is
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testimony. So we have people who used to be atheists, used to have all different kinds of
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faith backgrounds, and they come to Christ. And one commonality that I find is that there was some
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moment that they interacted with someone and the other person who was a Christian or who played a
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role in this, it was a very commonplace or mundane thing for them to do. They placed a C.S. Lewis book on a
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table and left it there and didn't think about it. They looked in someone's eyes and said their name.
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There's all kinds of these examples that I can think of that that person was simply doing the next
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right thing. And typically it was a part of their job or being a student or something like that. And so
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I do also think biblically informed imagination that when we get to heaven, we will get to see
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all of those things that we did that we don't remember. Typically, we just talked to a stranger.
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We just asked someone how their day was going. We just took the time to like really listen to them
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in our job or whatever it was. And we will be able to see how God used that in the constellation of
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someone's testimony to be a step towards them coming to Christ. And so, I mean, and our work is a part of
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that. Every detail is a part of that. I would argue our work is one of the primary ways that
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that happens. So we already talked, I think, you know, Christians can assume the only way that
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work matters for eternity is when they make disciples. That's not true. We just saw that
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our work in and of itself brings God pleasure, but it certainly does matter to make disciples of all
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nations, to contribute to who is in heaven with us for eternity. I just read this fascinating study
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by Dr. Michael Green that found that in the first three centuries of church history, when Christianity
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was exploding throughout the world, 80% of conversions to Christianity were not driven by a
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pastor, were not driven by a full-time missionary. 80% were led by what I call near Christians going to
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work as tent makers and shepherds and mothers talking around the drinking well in their towns.
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That's how it happens. And that was true in the first three centuries. It's even more true today,
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I would argue, when we are living in this increasingly quote unquote post-Christian cultural moment,
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right? Our unbelieving friends are not going to walk into the four walls of a church to learn about
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Jesus for the first time. So where are they going to hear about him? By working shoulder to shoulder
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with you, listener, as you go to work and just faithfully represent your king. And that doesn't
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mean leaving Bible tracts all over your office necessarily, right? It's just doing your work
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with excellence and love. So excellent and so loving that people have to ask the question,
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what makes you different? To which the only answer is Jesus Christ.
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Yeah. You know, these days with so many options on the table, especially if you're graduating from
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college and you think that you have to have a high paying job that also fulfills all of your goals
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and your passions and also what you are uniquely good at. And that's kind of how we define calling.
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And if we don't find something that meets that, we constantly feel like we're settling and we feel
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like, well, we can't truly glorify God. We can't truly be happy until we find that one unique thing.
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And it breeds, I think, a lot of discontentment, a lot of anxiety in people when they haven't found
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that calling and they feel like they're just constantly in the waiting room of their own life.
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Talk to us about that, about what calling is vocationally from a biblical perspective.
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Yeah, this is a great question. I don't see a whole lot of evidence that calling is a noun.
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I think it's more of an adjective. Let me explain what I mean by that. I think we have turned
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calling. The church treats calling the way Hollywood treats marriage, right? Mr. Right,
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as if we are in a wild goose chase to find the one thing that God designed us to do. Here's the deal.
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I don't think God particularly cares what you choose to do for work in this life, so long as it's not out
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of line with his commands. I think he cares a lot about your heart as you discern what that thing is,
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right? But I don't think he's too concerned about the choice itself because guess what? Regardless of
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what you choose, his purposes will not be thwarted, see Job 42 too. He doesn't need you to take any
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particular job. He will find whoever he can to do whatever work needs to get done for the building
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of his kingdom. You and I just get to be grateful participants, right? I think that's incredibly
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freeing, right? Now, I could just make a choice, and I would argue, you know, the barometer for that
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shouldn't be our short-term happiness and our passions, quote-unquote, before we start the work,
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but our giftings, right? Because the entire Christian life isn't about my happiness. It's about
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bringing happiness to others, and how do you do that? You do that through the ministry of excellence,
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right? We have fallen. Ali, you and I are millennials. Every well-intentioned adult in our lives told us
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growing up. Do whatever makes you happy. Follow your passions. Follow your dreams. And we had more
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opportunity to do that than any generation before us, and yet Gallup tells us we're the least happy
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generation at work. It's almost as if Jesus knew what he was talking about when he said, hey, serve first.
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Don't seek to be served. Prioritize others' happiness above your own. And when we do, when we get really,
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really, really good at something, that's when I think that we find sustainable vocational joy for
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And just because there are so many words today that have been misconstrued and not in alignment with
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how Scripture defines things, of course, when we say happiness, we don't necessarily just mean
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making people feel good. Although that can be good, but sometimes people feel good in a way that
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is not honoring to the Lord. So when we say bring others happiness, we are talking about seeking
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their well-being as God defines it. And very often that does involve happiness. But of course, we as
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Christians are concerned about wholeness and holiness even before happiness. But your point
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absolutely stands. I talk about this a lot, how in this age of self-love, we're constantly told to find
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yourself, to seek yourself, and to seek only your own happiness, and everything else will fall into place.
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We seem really miserable. We seem to be wallowing in anxiety. And like you said, it's almost like
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God knew that actually we're not good gods for ourselves. When we worship ourselves, we actually
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end up really sad. Check this out. There's this brilliant researcher out of Yale, no idea whether
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or not she's a Christian. Her name is Amy Resnesky. She spent her whole career trying to understand what
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leads people to describe their work as a calling as opposed to a career or merely a job. And she
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studied it with doctors, computer programmers, administrative assistants, a bunch of different
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populations. And consistently, the number one predictor of someone describing their work as a
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calling is not whether or not they were excited about the work and passionate about the work before
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they started it. It's the number of years they have spent practicing the craft, right? In other
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words, you get to love what you do by getting really, really good at it and serving other people
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first. And again, this should not come as a surprise to Christ followers who model our lives after the
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one who came to serve and not to be served. But to your point, Allie, thank you for drawing out that nuance.
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It's not happiness necessarily that we're cultivating in others, right? Because that could
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be shallow. It could be unbiblical. It is service. The guiding principle is what work can I do best
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in order to love my neighbor as myself? That's the guiding principle.
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Yes, I think that's absolutely true. And what if someone is a part of a job where they're the only
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Christian there and they're just in an unfair, inequitable workspace and their boss, their
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coworkers are constantly making things difficult, but say, you know, they don't, they don't have
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another option. It's not a simple job. It's just a really difficult job to do with joy. How, how does
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a Christian navigate that? If that's where God has placed them right there? I mean, how did they do that
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to the glory of God? Oh man, this is a phenomenal question. I would encourage you. Now, listen,
00:24:35.140
as you pointed out, if the job's causing you to sin, non-starter, you gotta leave. I think those
00:24:39.780
are like, those instances are very few and far between, right? And we kind of know them. Yeah.
00:24:43.960
We kind of know them. Those are pretty easy, right? But man, if you're working in a dark place,
00:24:49.180
I would encourage you to stay there, right? Because Jesus called us to be light. And where does light
00:24:53.540
shine brightest in really, really dark places? It's why we need more Christians in politics,
00:24:59.120
more Christians in Hollywood, not retreating to build our own Christian subcultures. Although I
00:25:05.620
like some of that content, I'm not condemning all that content, but we need to be running into the
00:25:10.380
dark places because this is exactly what Jesus did, right? Hebrews 13 says that Jesus also suffered
00:25:18.320
outside the city gate. And he's talking about the temple, right? So outside of the temple,
00:25:23.540
outside the city gate. And there's a number of interpretations of this. Here's one that I think
00:25:28.040
is really interesting. I think part of the application of this is Jesus could have had a
00:25:34.820
quote unquote, holy job when he came to earth. It's perfectly within God's power to choose for Jesus to
00:25:42.200
grow up as a priest, maybe a Pharisee, but instead Jesus worked outside the city gate as a carpenter
00:25:51.380
working a regular J-O-B where I am sure he had more opportunities to be tempted, more opportunities
00:25:59.080
to cheat out customers. We do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses
00:26:03.660
because Jesus worked in dark places outside the city gate. That should lead us to rush into those dark
00:26:10.560
places to be a faithful presence, right? The one source of light and truth and imperfect holiness
00:26:20.060
within that office. Yeah. And wow, it's getting really hard for Christians and always has been,
00:26:26.560
of course, to a certain degree. And there are some instances in, especially when we're talking about
00:26:30.980
gender and a lot of these issues that have come into the workplace where Christians are basically
00:26:35.380
being called to lie. And of course, I would never condone a Christian lying or doing anything that
00:26:41.960
is opposed to God's word. And I don't think, and you can tell me what you think about this. I don't
00:26:47.100
think it's wrong for Christians to look for new opportunities. But the point is that while you're
00:26:52.260
there, you need to be there. Wherever you are, be all there. That's what Jim Elliott said. And to seek
00:26:59.180
the glory of God there, because he might actually have you there, maybe for longer than you would
00:27:05.900
want. And it's not just a waiting period. It's a period in which he is asking you to do work.
00:27:11.140
That's exactly right. And all throughout scripture, we see examples of this, of God choosing people to
00:27:17.040
go work in dark places. Obadiah, essentially chief of staff to this evil king. Why was he there? To save
00:27:22.340
the prophets, right? Joseph going to work for this, what will become a very evil regime in Egypt. Why? To do
00:27:30.200
God's work of saving the people from famine, right? So time and time again, we see God choosing not to
00:27:37.620
choosing people not to go into safe spaces, right? But to go into dangerous places where his presence is most
00:27:43.840
desperately needed. But you're right, Allie, you, if you're listening to this, and you're working in a really
00:27:48.600
tough situation, God may be calling you to leave, right? That is a very real possibility. And if he
00:27:52.660
does, you got to go. But he might just as well be calling you to stay and just serve as a faithful,
00:28:01.920
Okay, we only have a few minutes left. You've got a devotional word before work. Tell us what it
00:28:19.480
looks like in the morning for a Christian to prioritize the word before work and how that
00:28:25.640
can shape what we do. Yeah, so we've explored like a whole lot of truths real quickly in just a few
00:28:32.100
minutes on this podcast. But it's not enough to learn these truths one time, right? We live at a
00:28:38.600
time where every message is telling us that work is about our happiness and our joy, telling us to
00:28:44.260
build our kingdoms rather than God's, right? And so we have got to be regularly steeping ourselves,
00:28:49.840
renewing our minds with what God's word says about our lives in general. But I would argue our work
00:28:55.380
really specifically. So that's why I wrote the word before work. It's the first Monday through
00:29:00.000
Friday devotional I know of that's narrowly focused on how God's word shapes your work.
00:29:06.600
These are like uber short devotionals, right? You can read each of them in two minutes or listen to
00:29:11.620
the audio book in about two minutes in your car on your way to work or in your lunch break.
00:29:16.120
And the whole purpose is to renew your mind with what God said about your work and give you something
00:29:20.380
bite-sized and actionable that you can do in a few minutes to help you make a greater eternal
00:29:26.900
impact with the work you're doing today. Wow. That's so good. We did pack a lot into just a few
00:29:33.080
minutes, but you are excellent at explaining all of this and I can tell it's your passion. So
00:29:36.960
I appreciate that. I want to end with this quote from Elizabeth Elliott. You can tell me what you think
00:29:44.060
about it, but I think about it from time to time just in the mundane or when I just don't feel like
00:29:48.380
quirky, don't feel like doing my job, whether it's my home job, my most important job as a wife and a
00:29:53.280
mom or whether it's this job. She said, this job has been given to me to do. Therefore, it is a gift.
00:29:59.960
Therefore, it is a privilege. Therefore, it is an offering I may make to God. Therefore, it is to be
00:30:05.220
done gladly. If it is to be done for him here, not somewhere else, I may learn God's way in this job,
00:30:12.640
not in some other God looks for faithfulness. I just love that. And I mean, that's exactly what
00:30:18.120
you're saying. Exactly. I would never try to say something better than Elizabeth Elliott.
00:30:23.440
Well, I would say you're right out there. You articulated this so well. Where can people find
00:30:28.880
you? How can they buy your many awesome books? Oh, let me say, actually, before I answer this,
00:30:33.680
let me say, I don't know if my producer Bree told you this, but the reason that you were booked is
00:30:39.240
because she said that your book called to create changed her life. And so you've had an impact on her.
00:30:46.500
And then consequently, on this show and on lots of people. So tell everyone where they can find those
00:30:53.000
books. Yeah, absolutely. So lots of books and lots of free content as well at jordanrainer.com,
00:30:59.340
J-O-R-D-A-N-R-A-Y-N-O-R.com. And by the way, I know there's a lot of parents listening.
00:31:04.820
We didn't talk about this book today, maybe some other time, but
00:31:07.220
we are developing a whole series of children's books to embed these ideas in kids' minds at a very
00:31:13.380
early age. We just launched an award-winning one last year called The Creator in You,
00:31:18.780
which helps kids see that the sixth day of Genesis 1 was not the end of creation,
00:31:24.720
contrary to how we typically preach it. It was the beginning because it's when God passed the baton
00:31:28.780
to us and told us to create and work like him. It's been an incredible resource for families that,
00:31:35.880
frankly, I think has impacted a lot more parents than it has kids in its 387 words.
00:31:41.820
That's another resource. And you can find all that at jordanrainer.com.
00:31:46.220
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Jordan. And yes, we'll have to have you on again. Lots of other
00:31:49.520
things we could talk about, but encourage people to go to jordanrainer.com, check out all your books
00:31:54.120
and all the resources you provide. Thank you so much.