Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - February 07, 2023


Ep 750 ｜ Is Andy Stanley Gay-Affirming？ ｜ Guest： Jacob Kersey


Episode Stats

Length

58 minutes

Words per Minute

176.73416

Word Count

10,255

Sentence Count

668

Misogynist Sentences

4

Hate Speech Sentences

31


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Mega Church Pastor Andy Stanley is under fire for a clip that's gone viral on Twitter where
00:00:06.220 it seems like he is going soft on the issue of homosexuality.
00:00:12.180 And so we'll play that and I will give you my thoughts and analysis.
00:00:16.320 And then we've got a former police officer, Jacob Kersey, who was fired from his job for
00:00:22.500 his stance on sexuality in marriage, according to what God's word says.
00:00:27.960 So this is a jam-packed episode that I know is going to encourage you.
00:00:32.520 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
00:00:35.220 Go to GoodRanchers.com.
00:00:36.400 Use promo code Allie at checkout.
00:00:37.960 GoodRanchers.com.
00:00:38.900 Promo code Allie.
00:00:48.560 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable.
00:00:50.620 Happy Tuesday.
00:00:52.620 Had to think about that for a second as I typically do.
00:00:55.680 Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far.
00:00:59.460 Okay, we're finally going to talk about this Andy Stanley controversy.
00:01:03.360 You probably saw clips floating around a couple weeks ago on Twitter, people talking about
00:01:07.880 something that he said about homosexuality and gay people within the church.
00:01:12.160 If you didn't see that, don't worry.
00:01:13.320 We'll play the clips and talk about the context and all of that.
00:01:16.080 And then I will respond to it and tell you what I think.
00:01:18.400 I'll give some background on Andy Stanley too and why he's received some criticism, especially
00:01:23.380 from the conservative camp, theologically over the past couple of years.
00:01:28.200 So we'll get into all of that.
00:01:29.360 And then I have a really interesting interview, as you heard at the top of the show, with someone
00:01:35.260 who is going to be very clear about what the Bible says about marriage and sexuality and
00:01:42.120 gender.
00:01:42.840 But before we start all of that, I just wanted to read the caption of an Instagram post from
00:01:48.960 our friends on the Cultist show.
00:01:51.780 I've had them on once.
00:01:53.380 Have I had them on twice?
00:01:54.480 If I haven't had them on twice, I need to have them on again.
00:01:56.860 We talked about...
00:01:57.680 Okay, we've had them on twice.
00:01:59.260 Okay, so we talked about the origins of Halloween and things like that.
00:02:03.160 I just think they're really cool guys and really solid.
00:02:05.540 You should go back and listen to those previous episodes.
00:02:07.740 We'll link them in the description of this podcast if you haven't.
00:02:11.320 And I just love how they approach each cultural and social issue.
00:02:16.040 They're never dismissive.
00:02:17.040 They're like me and that they believe that the so-called culture wars matter.
00:02:21.300 They're actually a matter of biblical proportions.
00:02:25.460 But they are so fixated on, in the best way, the triumph of Jesus and the victory that we
00:02:35.580 have in him that it just...
00:02:37.280 Whenever I read their words or listen to them, it just gives me a lot of hope and it reminds
00:02:40.800 me of who wins.
00:02:42.820 And this is in relation to the Sam Smith performance that we talked about yesterday.
00:02:48.620 Go listen to that episode if you haven't already.
00:02:52.160 We dive into that, what we should be concerned about, what we should be less concerned about.
00:02:58.260 And here's their take on it.
00:02:59.480 I love how they say this.
00:03:00.760 I won't read the entire caption, but I love the beginning of it.
00:03:03.840 So they post a picture of Sam Smith, you know, dressed in his devil horns like Satan on the
00:03:10.380 stage of the Grammys.
00:03:11.600 And they said this.
00:03:13.100 No amount of false worship of a defeated foe at the Grammys can reverse what Christ accomplished
00:03:18.860 at the cross.
00:03:20.100 Boom.
00:03:20.560 These people in their idolatry seek to obtain what only people in Christ have, peace with
00:03:26.860 God and the freedom from the weight of sin.
00:03:30.060 Yet in their idolatry, they repress their knowledge of God and think that acceptance of sin is freedom
00:03:34.840 from God.
00:03:35.980 Willful ignorance cannot change reality.
00:03:37.960 No amount of plain pretend can stop the inevitable outcome of us all.
00:03:43.040 We all die.
00:03:44.120 They will also one day die because the wages of sin is death.
00:03:48.420 Maybe I will read this whole thing.
00:03:49.600 Their God, who is no God at all, will also face the same inevitable outcome.
00:03:55.700 God with a little G.
00:03:57.020 It is called the Lake of Fire, and he gives no hope for those who are enslaved to their
00:04:00.300 sin.
00:04:00.980 What took place at the Grammys was an act of rebellion, none of which scares God.
00:04:04.780 Instead, he laughs and holds the nations in derision.
00:04:09.680 He will crush them like a pot's herd.
00:04:13.860 I think that's how you pronounce that.
00:04:15.200 We Christians must pray and reach those who are deceived into thinking the acceptance of
00:04:21.360 sin is freedom from God with the gospel, for we will all meet our maker.
00:04:27.000 We should neither be alarmed or threatened at this gross display of pretend worship.
00:04:32.240 We should fear for their souls and preach Christ crucified for the light.
00:04:37.080 And the true light has come into the world, and the darkness will never overcome him.
00:04:45.060 Yes and amen.
00:04:48.000 God is not scared.
00:04:49.660 He is not anxious.
00:04:51.140 He is not worried.
00:04:52.740 He is not looking down and saying, how did it come to this?
00:04:56.380 He is not confused about how we got here.
00:04:59.620 He is not worried about the threat of darkness.
00:05:04.400 Here's what Psalm 2 says, and that's what they're paraphrasing.
00:05:08.600 Verse 1.
00:05:09.460 Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?
00:05:13.140 The kings of the earth set themselves and the rulers take counsel together against the
00:05:16.840 Lord and against his anointed, saying, let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their
00:05:21.300 cords from us.
00:05:23.080 He who sits in the heavens laughs.
00:05:25.800 The Lord holds them in derision.
00:05:27.520 Then he will speak to them in his wrath and terrify them in his fury, saying, as for me,
00:05:33.980 I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill.
00:05:38.900 And then we can go to Psalm 37, which if you've been listening to the show for any amount of
00:05:43.280 time, you know, it's my favorite Psalm.
00:05:46.140 And this is a good reminder for us as we see that gross display of evil and wickedness,
00:05:50.400 just unabashed darkness.
00:05:51.620 But even as we see also, and I think in a much more worrisome way, as we talked about
00:05:57.660 yesterday, the false teachings that are much more effective in swaying people and even
00:06:03.780 professing Christians into a place of darkness and deceit.
00:06:08.200 Psalm 37.
00:06:09.080 Fret not yourself.
00:06:10.300 Fret not yourself because of evildoers.
00:06:12.460 Aren't we all fretting ourselves because of evildoers?
00:06:14.480 I am.
00:06:16.180 I'm always fretting myself about people who are evil and wicked and who do harm, not just
00:06:23.660 to, you know, potentially to me, but in the world, to vulnerable people.
00:06:28.400 Fret not yourself, God says, because of evildoers.
00:06:30.760 Be not envious of wrongdoers, for they will soon fade like the grass and wither like the
00:06:35.000 green herb.
00:06:36.160 Instead, trust in the Lord and do good.
00:06:38.460 Dwell in the land and befriend faithfulness.
00:06:41.480 And then I'm just reading some of them and just some of the verses.
00:06:45.760 In just a little while, the wicked will be no more.
00:06:48.000 Though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there.
00:06:50.800 But the meek shall inherit the land and delight themselves in abundant peace.
00:06:55.340 The wicked plots against the righteous and gnashes his teeth at him.
00:06:58.460 But the Lord laughs at the wicked for he sees his day is coming.
00:07:03.260 So we see that theme throughout scripture that the Lord is laughing at the wicked, not in
00:07:08.940 a jovial way, not because he thinks they're funny, but in a derisive way.
00:07:14.540 You know, we talked about yesterday how so often Christians are so concerned with having
00:07:19.420 an overly flowery, soft, nice tone, which is not always wrong.
00:07:23.740 There is a place and a context and a time for that.
00:07:29.060 But I sometimes wonder if we if we read closely about the character of God who actually hates
00:07:35.100 the wicked and hates wickedness and truly holds them in derision, that doesn't mean that he
00:07:41.240 doesn't want them to come to repentance.
00:07:42.620 For God so loved the world, John 3, 16 says, that he sent his only son to die for us.
00:07:48.660 So, of course, he desires that no one would perish, that everyone comes to repentance.
00:07:53.240 But while we are in sin, we are an enemy of God.
00:07:56.220 We are under the wrath of God, as we talked about yesterday, Ephesians 2, we are under
00:08:03.000 the authority of the prince of the power of the air.
00:08:06.200 So it's a scary fate to be on the wrong side of God, to be on the wrong side of the creator.
00:08:14.880 And that really does lead into what we are talking about today with Andy Stanley and this controversy,
00:08:20.840 because what I fear is, I will explain further, is that Andy Stanley, and this is my opinion,
00:08:27.420 this is my perspective, and this is based on all the context that I have read, watched,
00:08:33.020 seen, listened.
00:08:34.220 It is not my desire to be unfair to Andy Stanley, to decontextualize him.
00:08:38.300 That doesn't help him.
00:08:39.280 That doesn't help me.
00:08:40.060 That doesn't help you.
00:08:41.040 It is to bring my, what I think are valid and thoughtful concerns about the way that
00:08:47.180 he sometimes talks about sin, particularly sin that involves identity and sexuality.
00:08:53.940 My concern, based on what I have seen, is that he does not take these sins seriously enough,
00:08:59.720 that he does not see them as creating a chasm between people made in the image of God and
00:09:05.380 their Savior.
00:09:05.980 But that he actually sees it as something that is kind of just misunderstood and mistreated
00:09:11.120 by the church, and that how the church sees these things as sin is really the problem and
00:09:16.040 not the sin itself.
00:09:17.520 So before I give any further explanation or analysis of that, I will play you, I'll play
00:09:23.260 you this clip that has been going around on Twitter.
00:09:26.480 I don't, I can't play you the full segment of this sermon because it's 10 minutes long.
00:09:31.640 The sermon itself, of course, is longer than that.
00:09:33.400 And it's actually not a sermon.
00:09:34.480 It's a speech that he's giving at a pastor's conference that he gave about the middle of
00:09:39.800 last year.
00:09:40.440 And so he's talking to a room of pastors.
00:09:42.600 And the context is, is that he's talking about leading the next generation of Christians.
00:09:48.440 And so he touches on this hot button issue of people who call themselves gay, identify
00:09:54.920 as gay.
00:09:56.520 And when I play this clip, I just want you to know I'm not trying to manipulate it.
00:10:00.500 I'm not trying to leave context out of it to make it sound worse.
00:10:03.320 I think this gives a full enough context for us to really get an accurate understanding
00:10:09.840 of what he's saying.
00:10:10.940 And then I'll fill in some color after we watch it and listen to it.
00:10:14.400 So here it is.
00:10:15.280 A gay person, when I say gay, men and women, okay, a gay person who still wants to attend
00:10:20.960 church after the way the church has treated the gay community, I'm telling you, they have
00:10:26.280 more faith than I do.
00:10:27.340 They have more faith than a lot of you.
00:10:30.480 A gay person who knows, you know what, I might not be accepted here, but I'm going to try
00:10:35.600 it anyway.
00:10:37.140 Have you ever done that as a straight person?
00:10:40.300 Where do you go that you're not sure you're going to be accepted and you go over and over
00:10:45.500 and over and over?
00:10:46.860 I know 1 Corinthians 6 and I know Leviticus and I know Romans 1.
00:10:50.220 It's so interesting to talk about all that stuff, but just, oh my goodness, a gay man
00:10:55.360 or woman who wants to worship their heavenly father, who did not answer the cry of their
00:11:03.340 heart when they were 12 and 13 and 14 and 15, God said no, and they still love God.
00:11:11.080 We have some things to learn from a group of men and women who love Jesus that much and
00:11:18.840 who want to worship with us.
00:11:20.400 And I know the verses, I know the clobber passages, right?
00:11:24.840 So there's a lot that I have to say about that particular clip and I'll get into my analysis
00:11:29.860 in just a second.
00:11:41.080 Okay, so let me just say, like, I don't disagree with everything that he says there.
00:11:47.240 I don't disagree with everything that he says there.
00:11:51.780 I do believe that someone who is, and I will use different language because part of my issue
00:11:57.740 is the language that he uses and what it seems to imply, someone who is same-sex attracted
00:12:02.800 or say someone who just calls themselves gay or calls themselves lesbian.
00:12:07.780 And they are not a believer, or maybe they were raised a Christian, but they spent a long
00:12:14.040 time out of the church, but they feel some kind of pull.
00:12:17.280 They feel some kind of hunger.
00:12:18.640 They feel some kind of conviction and they want to go back to church.
00:12:21.760 They want to try it out.
00:12:22.820 They want to see what it's like, but they're scared because maybe they do have a past experience
00:12:27.080 in the church where their struggle was not treated with compassion.
00:12:32.620 They as a person were not treated with love.
00:12:37.160 And they weren't given the kind of care and the kind of counseling that they needed at
00:12:45.200 the time.
00:12:45.520 Maybe they only faced rejection, maybe they only faced condemnation, and they didn't get
00:12:49.840 any of the love that is required to lead people to repentance.
00:12:53.640 As we see in Romans 2, it is God's kindness that leads people to repentance.
00:12:58.120 And so maybe they do just have a completely negative experience, or maybe they were given all the love
00:13:03.160 in the world, but they were told that it was a sin, and they just disagreed with that.
00:13:06.860 They walked away from the church.
00:13:08.180 There are different kinds of experiences there.
00:13:10.280 That person who has struggled in that way, or who believes that this is their identity,
00:13:16.460 I do think it takes a measure of courage to walk into a church not knowing how people are going to
00:13:22.500 treat you.
00:13:23.300 Not knowing if people are going to befriend you.
00:13:28.360 If people are going to be kind to you, if people are going to be willing to allow you
00:13:33.780 to sit in their congregation, either because of real experiences that you've had, or because
00:13:38.180 of some kind of portrayal that you've seen of Christians in the media that you believe,
00:13:42.020 or some kind of caricature that you've created in your head.
00:13:44.620 Like, I do think that for that person, it takes an amount of bravery that maybe you or
00:13:51.640 I would not necessarily have to muster.
00:13:54.280 Now, I don't think that that is the only kind of person that might have to muster some courage
00:14:00.180 and some gumption to walk into a church.
00:14:03.240 People of all different kinds of backgrounds, with all different kinds of experiences, might
00:14:07.840 have a difficult time walking into church by themselves, or even with another person for
00:14:12.760 a variety of reasons.
00:14:13.960 But I do think the person who either identifies actively as gay, or who thinks that they are
00:14:21.720 transgender, or the person who simply struggles with that kind of confusion, I do think that
00:14:27.880 there is a level of courage and a level of faith, although I want to be kind of careful
00:14:33.960 with that word, like a level of hope, maybe that you or I, in that specific context, would
00:14:41.700 not have to necessarily exercise.
00:14:44.360 Like, I think that we can say that.
00:14:46.020 I think that we can probably empathize with that, that that's a different experience and
00:14:50.980 maybe a different feeling than you or I might have, depending on who you are, depending on
00:14:56.500 what your struggle is.
00:14:57.620 Again, that's not the only struggle that would require that kind of courage to walk into a
00:15:02.380 church.
00:15:02.600 So there, I understand what he's saying.
00:15:06.780 One of my issues with this is the language that he uses when he says a gay man or woman,
00:15:12.800 or a gay person, a person who, you know, asked God for different feelings and God didn't give
00:15:18.440 them those different feelings.
00:15:20.120 And then he kind of dismisses the passages about homosexuality.
00:15:25.280 And, you know, he basically says, we need to learn from their faith.
00:15:28.900 They love God.
00:15:30.060 To me, it is not clear, either within this clip or from anything that I heard and saw in
00:15:36.000 this talk that he gave, that he is talking about people who simply struggle with same-sex
00:15:41.300 attraction, who are attracted to the other sex, but they understand what God's word says.
00:15:47.100 And so they are resisting that behavior and they are walking in repentance.
00:15:52.300 To me, it sounds very much like he believes that this is an identity that can coincide with
00:16:01.440 active and repentant Christianity.
00:16:04.960 And that is an issue.
00:16:10.360 And that is actually unloving, according to scripture.
00:16:14.100 And it's not just this clip that I'm using to deduce that.
00:16:18.760 There are several pastors who have spent time with Andy Stanley who have talked about their
00:16:24.340 concerns online.
00:16:26.500 There was a pastor named Ryan Visconte.
00:16:29.020 He is the lead pastor at Generation Church in Arizona, and he reported on an interaction
00:16:38.500 that he had with Andy Stanley.
00:16:39.920 He said September 19th, 2019, and he was with several pastors and he engaged with a Q&A, a
00:16:46.460 private Q&A with Andy Stanley.
00:16:48.480 There were other pastors who then corroborated Ryan's rendering of the events that night, where
00:16:55.840 basically, I don't have to read you the entire thread, we can link it so you can read it for
00:17:00.400 yourself.
00:17:01.360 But basically, Andy shared that he is affirming that he believes that homosexuality is some
00:17:07.900 kind of disability, that it's a feeling that cannot be changed.
00:17:12.120 And he said that maybe one day he would officiate a gay wedding if maybe he said if his granddaughter
00:17:18.620 asked him someday to officiate a gay wedding, then he would.
00:17:23.520 Now, this is this person's rendering of what happened.
00:17:26.020 It's been corroborated by other pastors who are there, but this is one person saying what
00:17:32.340 Andy Stanley said in this meeting of pastors.
00:17:36.020 And there were several other people or the several other comments that Andy Stanley made
00:17:40.980 that made this particular pastor and other pastors uncomfortable with his stance on homosexuality.
00:17:48.060 And from what I see from this particular clip, I see something that is in opposition to what
00:17:54.320 Christians who either used to identify as gay or who struggle with same-sex attraction have
00:18:00.380 said is helpful and accurate when it comes to evangelizing to these people.
00:18:05.340 I'm talking about Christopher Yuan.
00:18:07.080 I'm talking about Beckett Cook.
00:18:08.720 I'm talking about Rosaria Butterfield.
00:18:10.760 All people who have done a lot of work in detaching your attraction, your sexual attraction from
00:18:19.940 your identity.
00:18:21.720 They have worked really hard to say, no, there's no such thing as a gay person as a matter of
00:18:30.840 identity.
00:18:31.560 There are people who are attracted to the same sex.
00:18:34.520 But if you are a Christian, we are called to repent from what God calls dishonorable.
00:18:42.180 And that is true for all of us.
00:18:44.200 That is true for all of us.
00:18:45.340 It's not just true for people who have those desires.
00:18:47.840 It's true for all of us.
00:18:49.280 And we understand that when we become a Christian, we become a new creation.
00:18:53.360 God isn't primarily calling people from gay to straight or from being confused about their
00:18:58.360 gender to not being confused about their gender.
00:19:00.640 He is calling them from darkness to light.
00:19:02.520 He is calling them from old to new.
00:19:06.400 He is calling them from broken to whole.
00:19:08.860 That's what the former drag queen that we talked to last week emphasized for us.
00:19:14.820 But all of that comes with time with repentance.
00:19:17.220 And that is what Andy Stanley seems to be missing here and dismissing here.
00:19:23.980 You can say some of the things that he said, and some of them might be valid and true,
00:19:28.720 as I kind of already underlined.
00:19:32.520 But for him to dismiss the repentance part, for him to dismiss the sin part, for him to
00:19:38.660 imply that this is their identity, that it is possible to be an act of rebellion to the
00:19:44.840 Lord with your identity and with your behavior and also be faithful to him at the same time.
00:19:50.180 Look, that's not possible for any of us.
00:19:52.460 It's not possible for any of us.
00:19:54.380 And for us to dismiss what the Bible has to say about this is to put souls in peril.
00:20:04.040 It is not loving.
00:20:06.060 It is not Christ-like.
00:20:07.500 It is not compassionate for us to belittle what the Bible calls sin, especially when it
00:20:14.740 comes to sexual sin, because sexual sin is actually distinct.
00:20:18.040 It's different because you are sinning against yourself.
00:20:22.040 You're sinning against your own body, which is supposed to be, as a Christian, a dwelling
00:20:26.140 place for the Holy Spirit.
00:20:29.420 That doesn't mean we don't mess up as Christians.
00:20:31.520 That doesn't mean we don't mess up a million times as Christians.
00:20:34.280 But our life is marked by Holy Spirit-empowered repentance.
00:20:38.540 It is not marked by the celebration of a so-called identity or a sin that is in rebellion to his
00:20:45.020 word.
00:20:46.000 So I want to read you some of these clobber passages that Andy Stanley says it's fun to
00:20:51.160 debate, but that he just kind of pushes to the side as he says that basically we just
00:20:56.460 need to learn from those who identify as gay Christians.
00:21:00.220 Because I am more concerned with and more interested in what the Bible has to say about this than
00:21:08.080 what Andy Stanley or anyone else has to say about this.
00:21:11.560 So he calls these clobber passages.
00:21:14.100 He says that he's read 1 Corinthians 6.
00:21:16.700 He's read Romans 1.
00:21:18.440 But then he just kind of moves along as if they don't matter, as if they're not that significant.
00:21:24.480 Romans 1, 24 through 27 says this.
00:21:27.000 And this is harsh.
00:21:27.920 Like, this is harsher than what I would say.
00:21:29.780 It's certainly harsher than what Andy Stanley would say.
00:21:33.320 But what do we say on this podcast so often?
00:21:35.720 We can't outlove God.
00:21:36.920 God is love.
00:21:39.640 1 John 4, 8.
00:21:41.200 He is the source and the arbiter and the definer of it.
00:21:44.680 He is the—he encapsulates it.
00:21:48.220 He is love.
00:21:49.420 So I cannot outlove him by trying to change what he says or try to soften what he says.
00:21:56.880 And here's what he says.
00:21:57.800 The God who is love in Romans 1.
00:22:00.540 Therefore, God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring
00:22:06.060 of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie
00:22:10.760 and worshiped and served the creature rather than the creator who is blessed forever.
00:22:14.600 Amen.
00:22:15.260 For this reason, God gave them up to dishonorable passions.
00:22:18.460 For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature.
00:22:22.600 And the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for
00:22:27.980 one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due
00:22:32.500 penalty for their error.
00:22:34.480 I know a lot of people have said, oh, the word homosexuality was added in in the 1940s.
00:22:39.320 Or this is not talking about homosexuality.
00:22:41.840 This is talking about prostitution or pedophilia.
00:22:44.580 No, no, no, this is very explicit and very clear.
00:22:48.780 And this is just one example.
00:22:51.280 And then we also have 1 Corinthians 6, 9 through 11.
00:22:54.500 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
00:22:57.980 Do not be deceived.
00:22:59.000 Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
00:23:04.900 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom
00:23:09.680 of God.
00:23:10.640 And, and here's the hope.
00:23:12.440 Here's the hope.
00:23:13.040 Like you want to be loving, Andy Stanley.
00:23:15.600 You want to reach this next generation.
00:23:18.040 Like you want to reach those people who are scared to go to church.
00:23:21.940 Here's the hope.
00:23:23.140 Not that, hey, you know what?
00:23:25.040 We're going to let you in.
00:23:25.760 We're not going to talk about your sin because that's uncomfy.
00:23:28.800 Here's the hope.
00:23:30.200 And such were some of you, but you were washed.
00:23:33.460 You were sanctified.
00:23:34.740 You were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God.
00:23:39.580 1 Corinthians 6, 9 through 11.
00:23:40.960 That's a clobber passage, Andy Stanley says.
00:23:43.480 A clobber passage.
00:23:44.880 That's the gospel.
00:23:47.260 That is the gospel.
00:23:49.660 You're saying that that is a passage that Christians maliciously use to bludgeon people
00:23:55.980 who are gay.
00:23:57.180 Are you saying that the gospel is that?
00:24:00.320 The gospel, then, is too harsh.
00:24:03.720 The gospel is not an effective tool to evangelize.
00:24:06.820 The gospel is not loving enough to reach people.
00:24:09.760 Apparently, we have to nuance it.
00:24:11.600 Apparently, we kind of have to dismiss it as something that is just a little bit too harsh.
00:24:17.320 Really?
00:24:18.500 Are you more loving than God?
00:24:21.180 Do you know better than him?
00:24:23.780 Are you more loving than Christ that you've got better news than the one that he delivers here?
00:24:29.460 And such were some of you.
00:24:32.320 But you were washed.
00:24:33.960 You were sanctified.
00:24:35.300 You were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God.
00:24:39.800 That is the message to those who claim to be homosexual, to those who claim to be transgender,
00:24:45.040 to those who claim who are adulterers, to those who are drunkards, to those who are
00:24:49.960 greedy, to those who are idolaters in any way.
00:24:52.480 That is the most loving and most inclusive message that you can give to someone, the most
00:25:00.140 hopeful message that you can give to someone if you care, if you care, if you care about
00:25:04.920 their soul, if you care about their heart, if you care about their body, if you care about
00:25:08.820 them at all, then that is the message that we use. And as I've said many times before,
00:25:15.980 but just to reiterate, it's not just those passages. It's not just the passages that say
00:25:20.080 it's wrong. We can say, oh, we don't want to look at those, which is the wrong way to look at the
00:25:25.640 Bible. But we're not only looking at the Bible asking, well, what does God say is wrong? Or
00:25:31.460 what could we possibly get away with? How can we kind of finagle this to get around these verses?
00:25:36.500 That's not how we read scripture. Christians don't read scripture saying, what can I get
00:25:42.020 away with? But how can I glorify God the most? And so we don't just look at these so-called
00:25:46.180 clobber passages, as Andy Stanley calls them, that says that these things are sin. But we also look
00:25:52.740 at how God positively defines marriage and sexuality and what we see. Andy Stanley would
00:25:57.680 like this because he's an amazing communicator. And if he doesn't about face on this, he is more
00:26:04.700 than welcome to use this alliteration as long as he credits me. God's definition of gender and
00:26:09.880 marriage and of holy sexuality, holy sexual relationships. According to scripture, five-part
00:26:16.700 alliteration is number one, rooted in creation. Number two, reiterated throughout scripture.
00:26:21.500 Number three, repeated by Jesus. Number four, representative of Christ in the church. And
00:26:26.040 number five, therefore reflective of the gospel. Number one, rooted in creation. Genesis 1, 27.
00:26:32.440 So God created man in his own image and the image of God. He created him male and female. He created
00:26:37.840 them. Genesis 1, 27. Number two, reiterated throughout scripture. Honor your father and your
00:26:43.300 mother that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. Exodus 2012. That's
00:26:48.520 just one example. But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own
00:26:53.840 wife and each woman her own husband. First Corinthians 7, 2. Again, those designations,
00:27:00.000 distinctions are not arbitrary or accidental. They're very specific. This is also repeated by
00:27:05.500 Jesus. Jesus says, have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and
00:27:10.800 female? And said, therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife and the
00:27:16.140 two shall become one flesh. Matthew 19, 4 through 5. People say Jesus never mentioned sexuality. He's very
00:27:22.080 clear. Number four, it is representative of Christ in the church. Ephesians 5, 22 and verse 25 and 31
00:27:31.320 through 32 says this, wives submit to your own husbands as to the Lord. Husbands, love your wives
00:27:37.440 as Christ lived the church and gave himself up for her. Therefore, a man shall leave his father and
00:27:41.860 mother and hold fast to his wife and the two shall become one flesh. This mystery is profound and I am
00:27:46.640 saying that it refers to Christ and the church. Wow, that's a huge deal. That's an eternal spiritual
00:27:53.260 mystery that earthly marriage between a man and a woman reflects that cannot work between two women
00:28:00.040 or two men, according to this passage. So therefore, number five, it is reflective of the gospel.
00:28:05.360 Revelation 19, 7. Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory for the marriage of the lamb has come
00:28:10.280 and his bride has made herself ready. That's Christ in the church. So wow, the Bible starts with a
00:28:18.040 marriage between Adam and Eve. It ends with a marriage between the lamb and his bride, Christ
00:28:24.200 and the church. An earthly marriage between one man and one woman is a reflection of that eternal
00:28:31.620 reality. It is a reflection of the gospel. So if we get this wrong, we get a lot wrong.
00:28:37.560 We don't understand the gospel. We don't understand scripture. We don't understand what this whole
00:28:44.440 story is about, honestly. And that is why when you see pastors, Christians start to compromise on this,
00:28:50.080 they eventually start to compromise on everything else too. Now, this understanding of scripture from
00:28:57.240 Andy Stanley is not all that surprising based on some past comments that he said. And we don't have
00:29:02.560 time to get into all of it, all of the controversy that erupted a few years ago when it seemed that,
00:29:10.340 it seemed that from some of the things that he was saying, that he kind of questioned the
00:29:15.340 sufficiency or the effectiveness of scripture when it comes to evangelism. So I'll explain a little bit
00:29:21.640 of that in just one second, just to give even wider context to all of this. All right. So I only have
00:29:37.560 a couple minutes. I really wanted to get into this a little bit more, but I didn't, I spent more time
00:29:43.640 on that on the beginning part than I thought that I would. But you might remember a few years ago,
00:29:49.000 there was a controversy, I think it was in 2018, about Andy Stanley in one of his sermon series
00:29:55.240 talking about unhitching theology from the Old Testament. He said, first century church leaders
00:30:00.560 unhitched the church from the worldview value system and regulations of the Jewish scriptures.
00:30:05.460 Peter James Paul elected to unhitch the Christian faith from their Jewish scriptures. And my friends,
00:30:09.940 we must as well. Now, he defended himself. And I think that it is totally worth it to say that he
00:30:17.800 says that he is not saying that we should dismiss the Old Testament. And he's not saying that the
00:30:22.340 Old Testament doesn't matter at all. And he's not saying that it has no authority, but that it just
00:30:27.700 doesn't, I don't know, I guess that he was saying that it doesn't have the same authority. He said
00:30:31.140 that you have to listen to the three-part series and get all the context. But a lot of pastors,
00:30:35.260 a lot of theologians took issue with that because obviously we don't dismiss the authority of the
00:30:39.900 Old Testament. While we are not bound to the ceremonial laws that ancient Israel was,
00:30:44.700 because Jesus has become our cleansing and become our sacrifice and reconciliation to God,
00:30:50.080 we don't dismiss the character of God, who God is, and the principles that can be gathered from
00:30:57.040 the Old Testament. They don't have less authority for us as Christians. And so some people did start
00:31:01.720 to question like his view of scripture and how he sees the infallibility and errancy of scripture.
00:31:07.480 And then he wrote a book called Irresistible that quite a few people took issue with because
00:31:14.540 basically the point of the book is he talks about several times and he emphasizes in the
00:31:20.980 like advertising videos of for this book is that we shouldn't say the Bible says. We shouldn't say
00:31:28.560 the Bible says because the Bible says is going to be an ineffective way to evangelize to people
00:31:35.140 because he would say that other people don't believe that the Bible has authority. So if you
00:31:40.560 said the Bible says something, then that person is just going to quickly dismiss it. But there is a
00:31:45.580 way that we can live our lives and try to persuade people that is ultimately more effective than saying
00:31:50.360 the Bible says. But a lot of people took issue with his book and how he seems to kind of undermine
00:31:57.280 the authority of scripture and the uniqueness of the Bible compared to the uniqueness
00:32:01.920 of scriptures from other religions because he makes the comparison. Well, if someone told you
00:32:08.080 the Quran says and you're not a Muslim, you're not going to care what the Quran says. But as John
00:32:13.000 Piper has pointed out in his repudiation of some of Andy Stanley's teachings, the Quran isn't the Bible.
00:32:19.100 We believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. We believe that it is the source of truth,
00:32:23.380 that it is the source of love. And while I agree that going around and simply saying,
00:32:28.140 well, the Bible says, the Bible says this, the Bible says that isn't always the most effective
00:32:32.800 strategy necessarily when you're initiating conversation with someone. I also don't believe
00:32:38.280 that my words are going to be more persuasive. Am I wiser and more persuasive than God? Do I have a
00:32:44.160 message that's better than the gospel? Am I in my own power? Like, do I have the ability to come up
00:32:50.760 with words that are more appealing than what God's inspired word says? I don't think so. Now, that doesn't
00:32:57.080 mean that I'm not going to try to build a relationship with someone or build a friendship with someone
00:33:00.980 or, you know, show someone who Christ is through various words and actions. I think that's all true. But at
00:33:06.700 the end of the day, the gospel must come from scripture. The gospel is found in God's word, and I am not
00:33:15.120 going to find better words than what God has already said, what God has already ordained. And so I disagree,
00:33:24.220 as many pastors disagree with this idea that the Bible does not have enough authority to change
00:33:33.480 people's hearts and minds. I also think that that is a misunderstanding of salvation, of how God reaches
00:33:39.720 people, of how God plants seeds in people. Actually, like the testimonies that I get from people on this
00:33:45.940 show, they always have some kind of interaction or some kind of conversation. It seems like where
00:33:52.620 someone actually talked about what scripture says to them. Someone actually tells them what God says,
00:33:58.320 or someone shares a book with them that includes scripture in it that really made them start
00:34:03.500 thinking. Christopher Yuan, perfect example. I think he was maybe the second episode that I ever did.
00:34:08.880 He talks about laying in jail, and you got to go listen to this interview and go read his books. And he
00:34:14.560 looks up and he sees Jeremiah 29, 11, and he gets a Bible. He's in prison. And he starts reading the
00:34:21.540 Bible. And that's when he starts understanding what the gospel is. I mean, this was a person who
00:34:25.600 was not a Christian. And yet God used his own word because, duh, to evangelize to him and to change his
00:34:32.400 heart. That is the power of God's word. Our words don't have that same power. Yes, the Holy Spirit can use
00:34:37.460 us in a variety of ways. But at the end of the day, the only time we are speaking totally infallible
00:34:43.420 truth is when we are speaking God's word. So all of that to say, and gosh, I have so much more to say
00:34:49.320 about that and so much that other wiser Christians have said about that. And so like much more context
00:34:54.880 to give to that. But I just don't have time. But I did just want to give a little bit of context
00:35:00.440 because it kind of makes sense. I think Andy Stanley, as I said, is an amazing communicator. He is so clear
00:35:06.460 and so good, like so captivating and compelling. God has given him an incredible, incredible gift.
00:35:13.300 It seems like, from my perspective, that he believes that he can do a better job
00:35:19.680 of reaching people than God can. That's what it seems like. Like he seems, it seems to me like he
00:35:26.200 thinks God is actually too harsh. And God is not a good enough communicator. And God is not compelling
00:35:32.220 enough. That God's word really has to be changed and softened and nuanced and just kind of tailored
00:35:41.360 and pruned and cut away in order to be presented to people in a way that is effective. I don't think
00:35:48.620 so. I don't think so. I think God is bigger and way better than me and can do a way better job of
00:35:54.440 changing people's hearts and minds than I ever could. As much as I love to communicate,
00:35:57.940 by the way. And he uses teachers and he uses teachings and he uses communication and tools
00:36:03.240 and books and all of that. But at the end of the day, again, the only time where we know can be
00:36:08.120 confident that we are speaking total truth is when we are repeating God's word. God's word is enough.
00:36:13.080 We can't out love him. We can't out justice him. We can't out compassion him. We can't out empathy him.
00:36:18.920 We can't outdo him at all. He knows what he's doing. And he's always known what he is doing
00:36:23.840 when it comes to changing hearts and minds. Speaking the truth in love means speaking God's
00:36:29.060 word, never watering it down. That's actually the most hateful thing that we can do. It's
00:36:33.500 actually self-serving and self-worshiping rather than worshiping the God of the universe who knows
00:36:38.540 better. Jacob, thank you so much for joining us. I saw your story a couple weeks ago. I think I
00:36:49.900 originally saw it in the Daily Signal. The headline says a Georgia police officer resigns after being
00:36:56.040 put on leave for a Facebook post about traditional marriage. So what the heck happened? This is not
00:37:03.200 happening in Pennsylvania or New York. This is happening in Georgia. What went on?
00:37:09.760 All right. Well, thank you, Allie, for having me on. And so January 2nd, I made a Facebook post,
00:37:14.760 somewhat of a paraphrase of Ephesians 5, where I stated, God designed marriage. Marriage refers to
00:37:21.460 Christ and the church. That's why there's no such thing as homosexual marriage. I received a phone
00:37:27.900 call from my direct supervisor the next day telling me I would need to remove the post. It had received
00:37:34.580 an anonymous complaint from someone at the police department, and I would need to remove it,
00:37:39.840 and I need to be reminded of separation of church and state. I said, well, that would violate my
00:37:46.220 values, my deeply held religious beliefs. I can't just remove the post. I won't remove the post. And
00:37:52.880 he said, well, know that if you don't remove the post, it could lead to your termination.
00:37:58.120 So I was informed I needed to contact my lieutenant. I called my lieutenant, and he told me that the reason
00:38:03.580 they wanted me to remove the post is they were concerned about, you know, liabilities and about my
00:38:09.080 ability to perform my job as a police officer after making statements like that. I said, well,
00:38:15.560 if I do my job professionally, if I treat everyone with courtesy, fairness, and respect, I don't see why,
00:38:21.320 you know, my deeply held Christian beliefs would raise concerns about me being able to do my job
00:38:27.300 effectively. Right. He said, well, you know, we're all Christians here. Let me talk to the major. And so my
00:38:33.960 major called me less than five minutes later and told me to turn in everything that belongs to the city,
00:38:38.980 the next day when I come in to work. And so, well, when a police officer is normally told that, that means
00:38:44.480 you're fired. It means you're done. So I had the long, restless, sleepless night on January 3rd to wrestle
00:38:51.260 with, did I really want to lose my job over this? So I go in on January 4th. I have a meeting with my command
00:38:57.020 staff. After I turned everything in, they told me, you know, well, we're going to give you kind of a second
00:39:04.160 chance to remove the post. Um, when I refused, my chief equated what I said to using the N-word.
00:39:12.160 Wow. Um, and told me that, um, they were going to place me on administrative leave while they did an
00:39:17.560 investigation. So I was placed on administrative leave. Um, about a week later, I was brought back
00:39:23.900 in, told that I had violated no policies, no rules. I did nothing wrong. However, don't do it again.
00:39:29.580 I was told that they were going to create a new department policy that would allow me to post Bible
00:39:36.120 verses or scripture verbatim. However, if I give any interpretation, um, any opinion or any explanation
00:39:43.760 of scripture that someone somewhere considers offensive, that it, I would be fired for it. And so I was left
00:39:51.600 with, you know, you can resign now, or if you come back to work, uh, you will be fired if you express
00:39:57.940 these beliefs. And I resigned because number one, I was given that ultimatum of you can resign now or
00:40:03.420 be fired later. But, but also a police officer needs to know that the command staff has your back,
00:40:10.360 especially with as dangerous as the job is. I needed to know that my command staff is going to
00:40:14.820 have my back. And after my chief equated me to being a racist and I was placed on administrative leave
00:40:21.260 led to, um, believe I was being fired and told that if I come back, I would be fired. If I said things
00:40:26.700 like this again, I decided to resign because at the end of the day, my motive was to go back to work
00:40:32.260 and I'm not posting these things to get fired. I'm posting these things because I sincerely believe
00:40:39.640 them because that's what scripture teaches. And then I was told I can't express those beliefs
00:40:44.240 outside of work and be a police officer. Wow. And I just want to reread what you, what you wrote.
00:40:51.980 God designed marriage. Marriage refers to Christ and the church, which you're exactly right. That's
00:40:57.600 what the end of Ephesians five clearly says. That's why there is no such thing as homosexual
00:41:03.200 marriage. That's absolutely correct. That is by the way, what Christians have believed for 2000 years.
00:41:10.660 That's what Jews believed before. Not that it refers to Christ and the church, but that God made
00:41:14.380 us male and female and that the creation account in Genesis one starts with a marriage. And Ephesians
00:41:20.360 five is actually the perfect passage to make that point because we see very clearly that wives submit
00:41:26.940 to your husbands as to the Lord. Husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church. This mystery is
00:41:31.980 profound. I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. That could not be more clear. So that
00:41:36.800 doesn't work with two men. It doesn't work with two women. It only works in a male female relationship.
00:41:42.000 That is what marriage is. That's what Christians have believed for thousands of years. You didn't call
00:41:47.980 anyone names in this. You didn't talk about any specific person as far as I can see. You didn't
00:41:53.020 say that we should hate these people, that we should be mean to these people. You simply repeated
00:41:57.600 literally what the Bible says about marriage. And this police department, which is outside of Savannah,
00:42:04.280 I think you said, the Port Wentworth police department said, oh, we're all Christians here,
00:42:09.120 but this is too far. And the separation of church and state, this has nothing to do with church and
00:42:15.680 state. You're not going around as a police officer trying to enforce this to people who live in
00:42:20.700 Savannah, are you? Right. Yeah, absolutely not. You know, there was never an incident where I was on
00:42:28.240 a traffic stop trying to save someone after I gave them a speeding ticket. Right. It was never a domestic
00:42:34.040 that I responded to where I was handing out gospel tracts. I was simply off duty expressing my Christian
00:42:41.260 belief, which by the way, if you go to my church's statement of faith on our website, you know, we say
00:42:47.680 the same thing in churches all over the nation. This is what we clearly believe. It's not merely an
00:42:52.020 interpretation of scripture. It is a Christian belief. It is very, very clear in scripture that this is
00:42:59.720 what's being taught. And so this idea that Christians cannot be trusted to be police officers because they
00:43:08.060 have this, like a devout belief is absolutely absurd. It's ridiculous. And we should not stand
00:43:15.260 for it. And I must say, it's not going to stop at a small town police department in Georgia. This is
00:43:20.460 going to continue that same level of questioning. Well, we're concerned about your ability to perform
00:43:25.300 your job fairly. And what? Because I'm a Christian and have these deeply held Christian beliefs. You're
00:43:31.400 going to question any Christian in any area of public service about the same thing. Well, do you believe
00:43:37.840 this? And if you do, well, you can't work here because, you know, fairness, tolerance. It's, it's
00:43:43.840 ridiculous that we've gone this far and it's not going to stop in a small town in Georgia. It's going to
00:43:49.060 continue.
00:44:00.340 I understand why you resigned rather than making them follow you. I mean, you probably could have had
00:44:07.480 a lawsuit on First Amendment grounds if you had like made them fire you. But I mean, as you said,
00:44:13.760 like your life is on the line in this job. And so trying to continue to protect and serve knowing
00:44:21.240 that the people in charge don't have your back, I mean, that puts you in a very physically vulnerable
00:44:25.740 position. So I don't, I don't blame you for resigning. But I do wonder, like, has there been any
00:44:32.760 backlash towards the police department? Like what's happened since then? Or has it just kind
00:44:38.900 of been radio silence from them? Well, I know, I believe it was this past Monday that the police
00:44:45.860 chief actually abruptly retired. He said to one of the local news stations, it was a forced
00:44:54.120 retirement. However, the city has not said that it was related to the incident. In fact, the city
00:44:59.100 hasn't even recognized that this happened to me. They've gone completely silent. I don't know why
00:45:04.880 the police chief was forced to retire. I personally believe it absolutely had to do with my situation,
00:45:10.300 what was said, because that was national news for a week before the police chief retired. And he said
00:45:16.080 it wasn't in his plan to retire, that he was forced to retire. So I hope the city says something.
00:45:22.160 You know, there's been a lot of backlash, I guess, towards the city and the police department and their
00:45:27.800 decision. But there's also been backlash to me and my decision, you know, whether I didn't do enough,
00:45:34.580 I did too much. And I have to say this, we're in a spiritual war right now. We're in the midst of a
00:45:42.360 spiritual war. The Grammys last night, perfect example of what's been happening. Before then,
00:45:48.400 little Nas X with videos that he did, dancing around as Satan with his music, and then Sam Smith doing the
00:45:55.020 same thing. Satan is deceiving people. He's lying to people. And it's infiltrating our churches. I was
00:46:04.120 reading a 2014 study by the Pew Research Center said that the United Methodist Church, 60% said that the
00:46:11.600 church should affirm LGBTQ+. What? What's happening to our churches? What's happening to American
00:46:21.980 Christianity? It's being so watered down, so affected by the culture. We're not standing for
00:46:28.100 God's word and God's truth. We've made Jesus into what is culturally acceptable. And we're not believing
00:46:34.260 in the Jesus of the Bible. We're believing in our own made up American version of Jesus. And, you know,
00:46:39.720 Satan wants to dominate. And any time that the church remains silent on these issues, he's going to
00:46:46.640 dominate. When we remain silent on sexuality, he's going to dominate. He's going to exercise his
00:46:51.740 dominion in every area. And he's been doing that. He's been exercising his dominion in our schools,
00:46:56.420 in our sports, in our entertainment. And he's going to exercise his dominion in the church. You're seeing
00:47:02.220 what's happening to the Methodist Church. It's happening in the Presbyterian Church. It's happening
00:47:06.140 in the Baptist Church all across the nation. And when Christians are told that if you speak out
00:47:11.800 against these issues, that you're being hateful, that is so false. I do think that there are people
00:47:18.940 who take it too far. You know, maybe like the image of someone standing on the street corner,
00:47:23.420 holding up a sign saying, if you're doing these things, you're all going to hell. I think that's
00:47:28.120 probably not a very wise, loving approach. But to merely say that, hey, just like Paul said,
00:47:33.580 those that practice these things will not inherit the kingdom of God. It's not loving to affirm people
00:47:40.040 and sin that's going to ultimately damn their soul to hell. And Paul stated that, hey,
00:47:47.700 I was formerly a blasphemer. I was formerly a persecutor of the church. But God in his mercy
00:47:53.380 saved me from that. Paul wasn't shy about the sins that he struggled with. And Christians,
00:47:58.520 we're not perfect. We don't claim to be problem free. But we know the one who offers redemption
00:48:05.580 for our sin and for the problems we have. And that's what we have to point to. We have to point
00:48:10.720 to Jesus and say, Jesus doesn't practice affirmational inclusion. He practices transformational
00:48:17.300 inclusion. He wants to transform your life. And he did it for me and he'll do it for you.
00:48:22.240 Yeah, I think that's so good. I think so many Christians think that like the full gospel is
00:48:26.780 just that Jesus loves you. They won't tell the bad news before they tell the good news. And so the good
00:48:31.340 news seems kind of irrelevant to people. The good news is that, yes, there is a gospel that Jesus
00:48:37.620 died on the cross to save you. But the bad news is, is that you're not saved, that you need to be
00:48:42.140 saved. And Ephesians 2 makes clear, as you said, that that was all of us at one point. Does it make
00:48:47.160 me better than anyone else? It's just what it is. And I do think if more people were just clear
00:48:53.760 about things like marriage, which the Bible is so clear on, this is not one of those,
00:48:59.160 you know, compromisable, wishy-washy subjects, maybe we wouldn't be where we are as a culture.
00:49:05.380 And as you said, also like a church. I think about people in different positions, but a similar
00:49:12.100 position as you were, who are, they're like, they're listening to this and, you know, they
00:49:17.380 admire you, but they're like, look, I can't lose my job. I can't do that. I'm not going to say this
00:49:22.360 thing. I'm not going to stand up because I don't want to lose everything. It's not worth the
00:49:27.440 sacrifice. Someone might be thinking, you know, like I'm a single mom with four kids.
00:49:31.520 How am I, how am I going to do this? Like, what's your encouragement to Christians who face
00:49:36.100 very real loss and sacrifice if they stand up for what they know is right? Because that can be,
00:49:42.760 you know, it's a tough position for a lot of people.
00:49:44.900 Yeah, absolutely. You know, my heart, my heart breaks for anyone who's in that situation where
00:49:53.640 they're faced with losing everything. You know, I, I'm not a, a 15 year veteran of law enforcement
00:50:01.360 with a, with a family and, and a mortgage payment and a car payment. I have very few financial
00:50:07.520 obligations and, and I don't have a family. So I'm a single 19 year old male who I'm able to make
00:50:13.600 this decision without it having a lot of effect on my financial situation. But I know there are
00:50:20.580 people out there who, like you said, are faced with, with that. And, um, you know, I think very
00:50:28.080 first and foremost, we have to pray and make sure our motives are right. What, why do you want to stand
00:50:33.340 for you? Do you really believe Jesus? Do you really believe his teaching? Do you really believe
00:50:38.780 his commandments? Um, so make sure your motives are right. Make sure your heart is right first.
00:50:45.040 You know, you don't want to be the person walking around with a log hanging out of your eye,
00:50:48.640 trying to, to stand for something when, when others have specks in their eye, you know,
00:50:53.100 you want to make sure your heart and your motives are right. But also like you look back in the first
00:51:00.600 and second century Christians, the very first Christians with Emperor Nero, they were, they were
00:51:06.560 tortured, you know, eaten by dogs, used as, as, as, uh, lampstands as they were, uh, placed on above
00:51:15.040 wooden piles and lit on fire. You know, they were beheaded, they were tortured, they were in prison,
00:51:20.540 they were persecuted physically for their faith. And yet I think if we're not willing to stand for God at
00:51:27.300 the workplace, how can we ever expect to stand for God at the chopping block? You know, we're not
00:51:35.180 being called here in America to, to physically give our lives, at least not yet. We're just being called,
00:51:41.680 well, Hey, you might lose your job. You might lose Instagram followers. You might not have as many
00:51:47.120 likes on your posts. You might not be invited to as many nights out on the town as you once were,
00:51:52.960 but you know what? You have Jesus and that should be your joy. That should be your strength. That
00:51:58.840 should be your hope. You have far more in Christ than you ever will have in this world. And so I would
00:52:06.440 hope that by the power of the Holy Spirit, that we would have faith and boldness, boldness and love
00:52:14.980 to stand for the truth of God's word, wherever we're at, whether that's at the workplace,
00:52:20.560 whether that is for some at the chopping block. Yeah, we do it because of the hope that we have in
00:52:27.740 Jesus Christ, because he's transformed our lives.
00:52:40.920 And also may the local church surround these people who, because they took a stand,
00:52:46.340 are, are having to endure immense sacrifice, especially if it means losing livelihood
00:52:53.800 for themselves, for their families. That's also like, that's where the church comes in. That's
00:52:58.360 where we share arrows. That's something that I say on my show a lot, whether it's Jack Phillips in
00:53:02.500 Colorado, or whether it's someone in your congregation, when someone takes these shots,
00:53:07.180 rather than other Christians sitting down and saying, Ooh, I'm glad that's not me. I'll never say
00:53:11.960 something like that now. Ooh, I'm so glad that I'm not the target of bullying. No, we all need to
00:53:16.540 stand up and say, you know what? Me too. Me too. I believe that too. And if you're going to launch
00:53:23.460 arrows at him, like you can send them my way too. I'll share them. And I think that's part of what we
00:53:29.780 have to do as the body of Christ. And I mean, it is, I am so glad for your testimony, but I am,
00:53:35.780 you know, it's a bummer because you are the kind of guy that we want in our police departments.
00:53:41.340 And if this happens across the country, then we are missing out on a lot of good law enforcement
00:53:48.560 at a time when law enforcement is so heavily criticized. And we keep hearing how they lack
00:53:54.300 compassion, how they lack love, and how they lack, you know, work ethic or whatever. You're saying
00:54:00.860 that we're going to fire the very people that are demonstrating these characteristics that we want
00:54:07.320 in law enforcement. That's just really sad. And also just like a word to supervisors and bosses,
00:54:13.200 like the people who, who give anonymous complaints, they're not the boss of you. They're not in charge
00:54:19.480 of you. You do not have to listen to people who whine about their feelings being heard about something
00:54:25.040 that someone who works for you said. You don't have to say yes to them. You don't have to fire the
00:54:29.980 person because someone's feelings are hurt. You don't. You can just say no to them and move on.
00:54:34.320 So that's just what I wanted to say. Do you have any final, final words for us?
00:54:40.780 Well, you know, a lot of people have asked me what's happened to the First Amendment.
00:54:45.040 Yeah.
00:54:45.220 And I say, what's happened to the First Amendment is we the people haven't stood up for it. You know,
00:54:51.540 I think as believers, as Christians, we're told to be good stewards of what God has given us. And
00:54:57.300 he's placed us in a nation with these amazing freedoms. And if we just stand around and say,
00:55:02.600 oh, well, this is a cool little talent God gave me. I'm going to bury it in the dirt and just wait
00:55:06.200 for him to come back. We're going to be the unfaithful servant he's not happy with. We're called to be
00:55:12.300 good stewards of what God has given us. And I think part of that is standing for our First
00:55:17.160 Amendment right while we have it to say, hey, God has given us these freedoms. These are freedoms
00:55:21.760 from God. We can practice our religion freely, openly, and we should not be driven out of the
00:55:29.140 public sphere. So we the people have to stand up. My final words of encouragement to fellow believers
00:55:36.020 believers is just pray without ceasing and ask God for opportunities to help you be bold and show
00:55:43.480 love all at the same time. You don't have to have either or. You can have both and. And we need to
00:55:49.420 pray for opportunities to be bold, especially when Satan is right in our face all the time with the
00:55:56.680 music we hear on the radio, with the things we see on TV, with the things our kids are learning at
00:56:01.700 school. You go out on town and you just hear it over and over and over and over again, these lies
00:56:07.540 and the deception from Satan, our enemy. He's fighting a spiritual battle and we need to get
00:56:12.840 off our cruise ship and we need to board the battleship and start fighting for God's worth,
00:56:18.380 God's word and God's truth, because in the end, that's what wins. And we need to realize that and
00:56:24.140 live as if that is the case. And so be bold, be loving, and just know that God is going to win in the
00:56:31.480 end. You've read the end of the book. Yeah, yeah. Yes and amen. And even though the persecution
00:56:36.440 here doesn't look like it does in the Middle East, we're not saying that it does. You mentioned
00:56:40.300 that earlier. Every single sacrifice made, every single degree of hardship endured for the sake of
00:56:47.260 Christ and for the truth of God's word counts for something. It builds up an eternal glory that far
00:56:53.460 outweighs any trial or tribulation that we endure today. So that is comfort, that this counts for
00:56:59.460 something. It counts for eternity, and it gives God eternal pleasure when His people obey Him,
00:57:06.600 even in seemingly small ways. So thank you for doing that, and thanks for using this
00:57:11.160 just tough opportunity or tough situation as an opportunity to share the gospel. You have a podcast,
00:57:17.420 correct? Yes. I've had a podcast for about seven years. It's called the Jacob Kersey Program,
00:57:23.920 and what we do is we offer expert analysis and great perspective about issues facing the church
00:57:31.820 and the conservative movement like things like this. I've talked about it in years past on this show,
00:57:37.120 and unfortunately it came knocking right on my door. But we do that. We have great guests on,
00:57:42.560 whether it's politicians, actors, journalists, TV hosts, faith leaders, just people who know what
00:57:49.040 they're talking about. Come on the show. We ask questions, have great conversations, and you can find
00:57:53.280 that pretty much wherever you get podcasts. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Jacob. I really
00:57:57.620 appreciate you taking the time to come on. Thank you, Allie. Thank you.