Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - February 20, 2023


Ep 757 ｜ New Studies Prove We Were Right About Masks & Immunity ｜ Guest： Jennifer Sey


Episode Stats

Length

52 minutes

Words per Minute

186.05061

Word Count

9,828

Sentence Count

644

Misogynist Sentences

10

Hate Speech Sentences

9


Summary

Jennifer Say was an executive at Levi s, a self-identified leftist who took issue with the mandates and how they were affecting children. And she was pushed out of her company for her outspokenness. Today, she tells us her story and the emotional response she had to feeling betrayed by the company and her co-workers that she had known for over 20 years. She s also going to tell us her reaction to recent studies.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 A new meta-analysis of studies looking at the efficacy of masks found that community mask wearing made little to no difference in mitigating COVID.
00:00:09.880 And a new study in The Lancet shows that natural COVID immunity is at least as effective as vaccine immunity.
00:00:17.360 This, in addition to a national report card published last fall by the National Assessment of Educational Progress, that shows a precipitous decline in student performance since 2019.
00:00:30.000 Interesting. These are things you and I and millions of other Americans have known since 2020.
00:00:35.840 And yet millions of Americans lost their jobs for questioning the official, quote unquote, COVID science on masks, vaccines and school closures, including our guest today, Jennifer Say.
00:00:48.080 She was an executive at Levi's, a self-identified leftist who took issue with the COVID mandates and how they were affecting children.
00:00:55.520 And she was pushed out of her company for her outspokenness.
00:01:00.440 So today she's going to tell us her story and just the emotional response that she had to feeling betrayed by the company and her co-workers that she had known for over 20 years and how difficult it has been to be pushing back against Democrat Party orthodoxy.
00:01:17.520 She's also going to tell us her reaction to these recent studies today.
00:01:22.380 This is an amazing conversation.
00:01:24.660 You're going to be encouraged by her bravery and maybe a little bit peeved that finally the scientific community is catching up to our common sense.
00:01:35.240 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
00:01:37.500 Go to GoodRanchers.com.
00:01:38.600 Use promo code Allie at checkout.
00:01:39.960 That's GoodRanchers.com.
00:01:41.000 Code Allie.
00:01:41.520 Jennifer, thanks so much for joining us.
00:01:53.880 For those who might not know, maybe they haven't heard your story yet, tell us who you are and what you do.
00:02:01.060 Yeah, absolutely.
00:02:02.800 My name is Jennifer Say, and I worked at Levi's for close to 23 years, which is a really long time in the world today.
00:02:09.500 No one does that anymore.
00:02:10.540 Stays in a company for that long.
00:02:12.620 I started as an entry-level marketing assistant in 1999 and worked my way all the way up to brand president in 2020 and was next in line to become the CEO.
00:02:22.520 I would have been the first female CEO of the company.
00:02:25.180 Wow.
00:02:25.300 But in March of 2020, I was outspoken about restrictions placed on kids, kids in particular, public school closures, the masking of very young children, closed playgrounds.
00:02:39.660 In my former city, San Francisco, playgrounds were closed for close to 10 months.
00:02:44.600 Basketball hoops were taken down at playgrounds.
00:02:47.700 Beaches were closed.
00:02:48.880 So I was very outspoken about these things.
00:02:50.860 And after a two-year conflict at the company with my colleagues telling me I needed to stop, all while their own children were at in-person private school, I was eventually told in January 22 that there was no longer a place for me in the company.
00:03:03.820 And I was offered severance to stay quiet about, you know, why I was leaving, which is that I was shoved out the door.
00:03:12.540 And I decided not to take that $1 million in severance so that I could talk about the censorship inside corporate America.
00:03:19.820 And previously, before you started talking about these COVID restrictions and the repercussions of them, did you find yourself pretty politically and ideologically aligned with a lot of these co-workers that were now pushing back against you in regard to COVID?
00:03:35.960 I definitely did.
00:03:37.360 I mean, I'd been a lefty my whole life.
00:03:39.580 I was politically aligned with the citizenry of San Francisco and had never, you know, faced any conflict.
00:03:45.820 And I had been outspoken about my politics in the past and no one had any issue.
00:03:50.200 But for whatever reason, COVID lockdowns and, you know, no one gets to do anything until there's zero COVID became the policy, the official policy and orthodoxy of the left.
00:04:01.800 And I viewed it as a trespass of their stated values and came to believe that their stated values were false and, you know, completely hollow.
00:04:09.880 It was hard.
00:04:11.340 Everything was so harmful to children, to lower income folks, to working class folks.
00:04:17.100 We've seen the largest upward transfer of wealth in history due to the restrictions and the lockdowns.
00:04:22.720 And, you know, in a sense, I feel I stayed true to my values.
00:04:25.280 I've always, you know, I've been an advocate for children for a very long time.
00:04:30.100 I was an elite gymnast as a child and wrote a book in 2008 about the abuse in that sport, the emotional, physical and sexual abuse in the sport of gymnastics.
00:04:39.300 And so I'd been involved in child advocacy, children's advocacy for, you know, close to 15 years at this point.
00:04:45.920 And I saw this advocacy as an extension of that because it was so obvious to anyone with eyes that children would be harmed.
00:04:53.280 And yet we were told we needed to further an obvious lie, which is that kids weren't resilient enough to withstand this.
00:04:59.760 They were not.
00:05:00.800 Right.
00:05:01.680 And what you said about you feel that you actually stayed true to what are what have been considered kind of left wing and liberal ideas.
00:05:10.640 Obviously, I am I don't consider myself a liberal or on the left and I never have.
00:05:15.920 But I can understand how from a left wing perspective, someone would articulate that their ideals are equality, income equality, racial equality, rights for the most vulnerable, fighting for the powerless.
00:05:29.180 Those are kind of the ideas and ideals that people on the left have said that they have championed for a while.
00:05:35.160 And while I disagree with a lot of the means implemented to do that, I do understand and can sympathize with some of those stated goals.
00:05:42.820 And so when you decided to push back against this, when you looked at what was going on and you said you saw, for example, there was an upward transfer of wealth that your rich white friends were able to put their kids in Paul and pods or homeschool them or keep them in private schools.
00:05:58.660 But that that wasn't accessible for people who didn't have the same resources.
00:06:02.960 You kind of said, OK, I'm going to just keep championing the values that I always have.
00:06:09.160 I'm going to keep on talking about the things that I've always talked about.
00:06:12.480 So my question for you is, like, why do you think that all of these people that you considered yourself to be ideologically aligned with for so long?
00:06:22.800 Like, what was the difference?
00:06:24.280 Like, you went one way.
00:06:25.880 They went the other way.
00:06:27.260 Did you have an experience?
00:06:28.640 Did you see something or like, what do you think it was that made the difference for you versus them?
00:06:35.940 You know what, Alibeth?
00:06:37.400 I think I will be trying to figure this out for the rest of my life.
00:06:40.580 Honestly, it's really confounding.
00:06:42.780 You know, all I can say is that I've always been about principle more than party.
00:06:47.380 So it was never about an allegiance to a particular orthodoxy or a particular party.
00:06:52.000 It was about equality of opportunity.
00:06:54.940 It was about children.
00:06:56.600 You know, I sent my own children to public school, though I couldn't, you know, though I could have afforded private because I want them to be part of the community that they live in.
00:07:04.740 And I believe in that.
00:07:07.260 And so, you know, it's hard for me still to wrap my head around the trespass of their own stated values.
00:07:15.540 I can only say that they never really embraced them and they never really believed it.
00:07:20.260 And it was always about orthodoxy and allegiance to party rather than principle.
00:07:24.060 And needless to say, that's pretty disorienting and upsetting, but it doesn't change my view.
00:07:31.780 And I think that, you know, that situation has intensified over the last few years and the tribalism has intensified.
00:07:40.000 You know, it used to be you could be a part of a party and not hold every single, you know, view of that platform, right?
00:07:49.440 You could be.
00:07:50.280 That is not possible anymore.
00:07:52.740 You cannot.
00:07:53.520 And so if you question one pillar of the platform, you are then assumed to be evil.
00:08:00.840 Yeah.
00:08:01.220 And, you know, I mean, I was called the worst unemployable names because I questioned school closures, which obviously were going to hurt children.
00:08:08.580 I was called a racist.
00:08:09.980 I was called a fat phobian.
00:08:11.960 I was called a eugenicist and anti all these things.
00:08:15.440 And the arc of your life doesn't matter.
00:08:17.540 What you've done in your life doesn't matter.
00:08:20.080 They will vilify you to keep others silent because it became very clear at a certain point that I was not going to be silent.
00:08:26.640 But you know what?
00:08:27.780 It certainly kept others silent because nobody wanted to put themselves through what I went through.
00:08:32.760 So it's just this sort of complete allegiance to the party without, you know, even thinking through if what they're saying is true or makes sense.
00:08:44.500 And I refuse to do that.
00:08:45.900 I refuse to further a lie.
00:08:47.820 I'm loyal to the truth and I will advocate for children.
00:08:50.640 And that's it.
00:08:51.760 Yeah.
00:08:52.040 And I'm curious if you agree with this.
00:08:54.880 I do see tribalism certainly on both the left and the right.
00:08:59.000 But to me, from my perspective as a conservative, it seems to be a lot stronger on the left because when I look at like even my fellow hosts at Blaze TV, which is definitely a right wing conservative network, we disagree on some really big things.
00:09:14.660 Like we might disagree on the whole like we might disagree on several things.
00:09:19.960 I'll just say that there are plenty of culture war and political things that we disagree with.
00:09:24.140 But at the end of the day, hey, if you're going to fight against these mask mandates with me, I'm willing to link arms with you, even if we really disagree with abortion or this thing over here.
00:09:34.240 I see a lot of that.
00:09:35.580 Not that I don't see a lot of infighting on the right, because I certainly do.
00:09:38.880 But there seems to be a lot more acceptance of heterodox views on the right than the left.
00:09:43.880 And I think even you kind of being, you know, on a lot of conservative shows and being elevated by a lot of people on the right is kind of evidence of that, that it seems like the the the tribalism on the left and the purity tests on the left.
00:10:01.680 To me, they seem a lot stronger than what we have on the right.
00:10:05.880 Now that you've kind of seen both sides and been in both camps, do you agree with that?
00:10:10.320 Yeah, I mean, I have to say my experience in the last three years would reflect exactly what you're saying.
00:10:19.220 I am hesitant to join any party at this point, and I'm a registered independent right now.
00:10:23.860 And you can understand why I might be a little gun shy, you know, because I don't want to be forced to sign in blood that I will uphold every principle that the party puts forth.
00:10:34.860 But to your point, I have been I have spent the last year being invited to talk to folks like you.
00:10:40.560 And I'm sure that you and I have plenty that we disagree on.
00:10:43.560 And I'm sure there's plenty that we agree on.
00:10:45.660 But you're willing to sit here with me and talk about this and link arms with me on the things that we do agree on and not consider me a wholly evil person just because we disagree on on some other issues.
00:10:58.920 And that's the that's the change, I think.
00:11:02.100 It's like you used to be able to disagree with your friends, disagree with your party members, disagree with members of the community on certain things and not be viewed as evil.
00:11:11.420 And that just doesn't seem to be the case on the left anymore.
00:11:14.520 And they will go after you with such vile, I mean, aggression to just rid you from the party and their community.
00:11:22.940 You're viewed as sort of a heretic if you disagree on anything.
00:11:25.840 And it doesn't matter if you make sense.
00:11:28.400 You know, I cited data.
00:11:29.780 Here's the thing.
00:11:30.660 Everything I said has borne itself out.
00:11:32.820 It was true.
00:11:33.600 And yet there's still no redemption.
00:11:35.180 Yeah, that's the thing.
00:11:36.280 And that's something that I've seen a lot on the left.
00:11:38.360 And again, not saying that it never happens on the right, but that there's almost no chance of redemption unless you go through some kind of Maoist style struggle session where you've been sufficiently shamed and therefore sanctified into recanting your position.
00:11:55.300 And just repeating the party lines over and over again until the people in power deem your groveling sufficient.
00:12:02.240 I mean, is that I mean, is that even really democracy, which is a value that a lot of people on the left side that they uphold?
00:12:08.940 I mean, that's it's not it's a form of totalitarianism, even if it's not the president of the United States coming down and saying you have to say this.
00:12:16.180 It's it's a kind of like I know this is going to sound weird, but democratize totalitarianism where the people are the ones that are actually inflicting the tyranny rather than like the power at the top.
00:12:28.380 That just doesn't seem sustainable to me.
00:12:30.460 Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more, actually.
00:12:35.440 And in fact, I was forced to participate in one of these struggle sessions that you that you mentioned in June of 2021.
00:12:43.260 I was told I needed to do an apology tour internally at the company.
00:12:47.720 Why? One, because of the stances I had taken very publicly.
00:12:51.180 And at this point, schools have been closed for over a year in San Francisco.
00:12:54.520 That's 50,000 students kept out of school for over a year and still no sign of them opening and no sign of them opening in the fall.
00:13:04.420 And so I was asked. And oh, the other thing that prompted it was I was invited to go on Fox News.
00:13:09.640 So I appeared on the Laura Ingram show in March of 2020.
00:13:13.200 And that was such an egregious violation in their minds that I was made to do this apology tour.
00:13:19.580 Now, you'll like this before the apology tour.
00:13:21.880 A colleague sent me a list of questions I should be prepared to answer.
00:13:25.900 This is straight out of a CCP struggle session.
00:13:28.780 Are you with us or against us?
00:13:30.660 Are you one of them or are you one of us?
00:13:34.880 Let's see. Are you a wolf in sheep's clothing?
00:13:37.960 That's what we think.
00:13:38.960 Are you a racist?
00:13:40.060 Are you aware that advocating for open schools is racist?
00:13:43.600 Are you a conspiracy theorist?
00:13:45.100 As if anyone answers yes to that question.
00:13:47.560 Now, I agreed to do the apology tour because I was not going to apologize.
00:13:51.880 I was going to explain myself, which is exactly what I did.
00:13:54.980 And I felt, you know, I could build a bridge if I I'm always very diplomatic and I cited data.
00:14:01.060 I mean, that's part of what made you successful, I'm sure, and allowed you to work yourself up in the company because, I mean, you don't get to where you were without being able to deal diplomatically with all different kinds of people.
00:14:11.180 But now you find yourself in a position where that strength isn't working.
00:14:14.200 Well, there was no convincing anyone.
00:14:18.780 I mean, it was just it's hard to explain.
00:14:21.920 I'm not sure where you live, but it's hard to explain what it was like in San Francisco in a very left leaning city during COVID.
00:14:29.180 I mean, I was literally my husband and I were alone.
00:14:32.260 We were the only ones and we were standing there going, it's so obvious.
00:14:36.200 How do you not see this?
00:14:37.980 How do you not see that locking a child in their room for over a year is going to be it?
00:14:43.620 How do you not see that?
00:14:44.400 That's that's harmful.
00:14:45.960 It's so patently obvious.
00:14:47.960 And it was so patently obvious that we were using children as human shields.
00:14:53.360 You know, we're not supposed to sacrifice children for the well-being of adults.
00:14:56.420 And that's what we were told we had to do.
00:14:58.780 And yet, you know, there was no veering from this.
00:15:01.800 And anyone who did and, you know, veering could be just asking a question, you know, just literally saying, are we sure this is the right thing?
00:15:10.180 Is this really helping or is this doing more harm than good?
00:15:12.940 And just for saying that, you were you were deemed as an evil apostate.
00:15:19.040 And, you know, I mean, I remember walking around San Francisco and a woman came up to me and my daughter, who was four at the time, and she screamed in our faces.
00:15:28.080 My daughter and I were at the beach without a mask.
00:15:30.280 Oh, my goodness.
00:15:31.180 And she screamed in my daughter's face.
00:15:34.380 I will not feel sorry for your mother when you die.
00:15:38.020 Oh, my goodness.
00:15:39.760 Imagine saying that and thinking that you are actually on the compassionate and good side.
00:15:46.200 That's my point.
00:15:47.320 It's like it justified such cruelty, this certainty that they were the morally virtuous as a member of this COVID tribe that was willing to do anything to sacrifice any freedom, any liberty, any child that made you good and virtuous.
00:16:01.480 And this is the purview of totalitarian regimes, right?
00:16:05.380 They offer you safety in exchange for your freedom.
00:16:07.880 That is always the deal.
00:16:10.500 There is no difference.
00:16:11.700 So I could not agree with you more.
00:16:13.400 This was pure tyranny.
00:16:15.420 And businesses upheld them.
00:16:17.640 Even if they weren't asked, it was this sort of total collaboration or partnership between big business.
00:16:25.060 We've seen it now with big tech and the government and big pharma.
00:16:30.020 And they carried water for the government's policies, you know, for the for the for the left wing narrative, which ultimately became the government in November of 2021.
00:16:42.440 And so but it justified all manner of cruelty.
00:16:46.200 I mean, it's grotesque.
00:16:47.860 And I just the harder I was pushed, the more I stood my ground because it didn't make sense to me.
00:16:53.140 At one point, I was told by our head of H.R.
00:16:55.660 Because, you know, I got a call every two weeks telling me I had to stop that when I spoke, I spoke on behalf of the company and I said I did not.
00:17:04.320 I was just a mom.
00:17:05.240 Yes, I hold a senior position, but I'm a mom for public school children.
00:17:09.800 I don't give up my rights as a citizen just because I have a job.
00:17:13.320 And, you know, at one point, maybe a year into this, our head of H.R. said, Jen, I agree with you, but you just can't say these things.
00:17:21.720 And I reject that outright.
00:17:24.340 Why?
00:17:25.240 Why can't I say these things?
00:17:26.640 Because it violated the Democratic Party narrative.
00:17:29.460 That is why I was also told I couldn't criticize Governor Gavin Newsom.
00:17:35.000 Wow.
00:17:35.260 So you check your First Amendment rights at the door just because you have a job.
00:17:38.360 That seems to be what a lot of people on the left, unfortunately, think about a whole host of people.
00:17:44.460 Obviously, you are.
00:17:45.820 Yeah.
00:17:46.240 And go ahead.
00:17:47.880 Oh, I was going to say, you know, there are some people that say, well, it's because you have a senior job.
00:17:52.220 You know, you're public facing.
00:17:53.480 Right.
00:17:53.740 In many ways, I was the face of the Levi's brand.
00:17:56.340 I was the chief marketing officer and then the brand president.
00:17:59.040 It's important to note whenever I spoke about these matters, I never used my title.
00:18:03.540 I was on the local news.
00:18:04.580 I was on the national news.
00:18:05.640 As I always said, identify me as a mom of four.
00:18:08.820 I took any connection down on my social media to Levi's.
00:18:11.880 So I made it clear I was speaking for myself.
00:18:14.260 But, you know, some folks would say, well, as as that sort of executive and leader position in a company, you had a different obligation.
00:18:21.440 Well, I had no contract that stated such.
00:18:24.260 So that's the first point.
00:18:25.500 I don't believe that just because I have a job, I give up my rights as a citizen.
00:18:29.080 And beyond that, if I, an influential senior executive, well-liked, beloved in the company, can't speak out about things that impact my family, my children and the children of the community, what chance does a, you know, work a day employee have being able to do so?
00:18:46.480 So I actually would argue that the point is the opposite.
00:18:49.880 You know, I have to be able to do it so that others can.
00:18:52.700 Exactly.
00:18:53.580 And obviously, you are a very strong and confident person.
00:18:57.200 You wouldn't have kept going if you weren't.
00:19:00.420 You wouldn't have gotten to where you were and are if you hadn't been.
00:19:04.780 But you're also a human being.
00:19:06.940 So I imagine that there were at times that you got your feelings hurt.
00:19:14.240 I mean, this company had been a part of your life for 20 years.
00:19:18.060 I'm sure a lot of these co-workers felt like family.
00:19:22.000 Levi's in general probably felt like family.
00:19:24.600 And a lot of your future maybe had even been kind of mapped out with Levi's central to that plan with you becoming the CEO.
00:19:31.700 So tell me about the feelings that I'm sure you felt of personal just betrayal.
00:19:38.020 Were there moments that you just kind of like broke down to your husband and you were like, I can't believe this is happening to me?
00:19:46.400 Absolutely.
00:19:47.040 I mean, I still have them, you know, if I'm really honest.
00:19:49.600 It's only been a year.
00:19:51.180 You know, I'm still sorting it.
00:19:53.040 These were my friends, hundreds, if not thousands of people.
00:19:56.780 I managed a team of over a thousand people.
00:19:58.840 There were people that had worked for me at Levi's for over 20 years.
00:20:02.980 I helped them build careers.
00:20:04.880 I went to baby showers and weddings.
00:20:06.940 I even attended funerals of family members.
00:20:09.700 I had four children there.
00:20:11.960 You know, I built a life there.
00:20:13.800 It's the better part of my adult life that I spent there.
00:20:16.520 And these were my friends.
00:20:17.400 And I talked to no one anymore.
00:20:18.860 It's incredibly difficult.
00:20:20.280 And, you know, my husband's a little more strident than I am.
00:20:23.820 And I actually, interestingly, got in trouble for things he would say on social media as well, which is a whole other can of worms, which we don't need to talk about.
00:20:32.300 But he, you know, I would get really upset and I would cry sometimes.
00:20:35.460 And he would say, who cares what they think?
00:20:37.700 They're wrong.
00:20:38.720 Why do you care if they like you?
00:20:40.020 They're wrong.
00:20:40.920 They're being cruel and evil and they're harming children and they're wrong.
00:20:44.240 And he, you know, gave me the sort of energy and confidence to keep going.
00:20:49.900 You know, he just has a different outlook than I do.
00:20:52.640 It's I don't like to be hated.
00:20:54.600 I hate it.
00:20:55.680 But I care about the truth and I care about children more.
00:21:00.600 And so I will I am willing to withstand the slings and arrows and cancellation and joblessness if I have to.
00:21:14.240 Gosh, it makes such a big difference to have a husband, to have a spouse in your corner that is strong, even though you see things a little bit differently when it comes to kind of like personal relationships and people liking you.
00:21:29.300 I feel like that's really a normal kind of dynamic in marriages.
00:21:33.320 But it helps a lot if you have someone who reminds you that the truth is worth it.
00:21:38.700 Sometimes, you know, the truth is even worth losing those relationships over if the other person is being cruel.
00:21:46.000 And I can just imagine you said like the arc of your life and your career didn't matter.
00:21:51.460 All these people who knew for a fact that you were not a racist called you a racist.
00:21:54.800 All of these people who knew for a fact that you were not a bigot who hated people and didn't care about grandma were calling you someone who was advocating for genocide.
00:22:04.520 That really hurts.
00:22:06.060 Like, I know when I've gotten accusations from people who know me because I'm a conservative or whatever that I'm like, you know, that's not my character, though.
00:22:14.780 You know me.
00:22:15.520 You know that that's not true about me.
00:22:17.100 Like that cuts a lot more than the random troll on the Internet who, you know, calls me a name or something like that.
00:22:23.520 So I just imagine that this has been a really emotional time.
00:22:28.720 It's been it has been really difficult.
00:22:31.360 It's it's nice that you recognize and acknowledge that.
00:22:34.240 And I I like I said, I haven't fully kind of sorted it yet.
00:22:37.640 I mean, I have there's a member of my family, a close member that I haven't spoken to in close to three years because he considers my views evil and wrong.
00:22:47.620 I mean, imagine that a family member.
00:22:49.540 Talk about knowing the arc of your life.
00:22:51.620 I have four children.
00:22:52.640 And my two oldest children are mixed race.
00:22:54.560 Their father is black.
00:22:55.640 To be called a racist is just ridiculous.
00:22:58.420 And yet if I were to say that, which I'm saying to you, I'm said to be sort of shielding my racism with my own with my own children.
00:23:05.260 So, I mean, the whole thing is absurd.
00:23:07.920 And at first it was really hurtful.
00:23:09.640 But honestly, I got to the point where I could sort of laugh at it because it was so nonsensical.
00:23:15.140 It didn't make any sense.
00:23:16.520 And really, those sorts of vicious ad hominem attacks are only meant to silence.
00:23:22.240 They are the purview of those with no argument.
00:23:24.480 Why not engage me on the merits of my argument?
00:23:26.740 Yeah.
00:23:27.080 Why just resort to name calling?
00:23:28.860 Because you don't have an argument.
00:23:30.060 So, I did get to the point where I could blow those things off.
00:23:34.020 But the hard thing was about halfway through, because I spent two years in conflict at the company.
00:23:38.600 About halfway through, I started to realize that I very well could lose my job.
00:23:43.400 And I'm the breadwinner in the family.
00:23:45.440 You know, my husband doesn't work.
00:23:46.860 He stays home with our children.
00:23:49.840 I have two kids in college.
00:23:51.560 You know, it's a risky, scary thing.
00:23:53.540 And apparently, even as an executive, I didn't negotiate all that well for myself.
00:23:58.740 And so, it's not like I'm in a position where I don't need to work.
00:24:01.700 I absolutely need to work.
00:24:03.740 And yet, I'm still considered pretty toxic in the corporate world.
00:24:07.820 Not because I was wrong at this point, but because I didn't toe the party line.
00:24:11.880 You know, I get a lot of, well, why did you have to say it?
00:24:14.020 Why didn't you just wait?
00:24:15.480 Well, if I just waited, who was going to say it?
00:24:18.660 Somebody has to go first.
00:24:19.980 And looking back at your time at Levi's, I'm sure you saw corporate America change and
00:24:27.520 kind of lean more into liberal political activism.
00:24:31.940 And you said before this, you had kind of been outspoken about your politics.
00:24:35.360 But now looking back, do you kind of see maybe some red flags that you didn't notice in the
00:24:44.240 moment when you saw, hmm, we're a lot more politically overt than we were before?
00:24:48.820 Hmm, kind of seems like we're pushing values down people's throat as a, you know, a denim
00:24:53.940 company that we weren't doing previously.
00:24:57.020 Do you look back and see that?
00:24:59.980 Do you feel like you were kind of a part of this shift leftward of corporate America?
00:25:06.820 I do, to some extent.
00:25:08.980 Although there's a bit of a line for me that I don't really think I necessarily crossed.
00:25:14.600 Um, you know, Levi's had always been a, you know, they would have said a progressive company
00:25:19.560 that valued, uh, profits through principles.
00:25:22.360 So, you know, making money and driving a successful business in a principled way.
00:25:26.720 And that really had always been turned inwards in terms of how they treated employees.
00:25:31.840 So for instance, they integrated factories in the South before the law required it.
00:25:37.120 That was something I was, I was proud of, you know, I think that was, um, I think that
00:25:42.420 was courageous and there, there were employees who rejected it.
00:25:45.280 People were angry.
00:25:46.300 They didn't like it, but Levi's, you know, stood their ground in the 1980s.
00:25:50.720 The company did not enter China when it opened up because of the working conditions for Chinese
00:25:55.320 people.
00:25:55.720 I think that was an ethical stance.
00:25:59.080 Um, and so, you know, I always felt proud to work there because of those things, but
00:26:05.620 sometime in the mid 2010s, you know, we did start to, and I, and I was there and I was
00:26:11.220 part of it.
00:26:11.720 We did start to sort of reflect and amplify those things outwards as a way to appeal to
00:26:16.140 younger generations.
00:26:17.000 But I think in some ways, again, some aspects of it were acceptable.
00:26:20.960 So, you know, featuring a more diverse and inclusive cast in our commercials, you know,
00:26:29.420 not just women who are six feet tall and 102 pounds, um, I think is more welcoming to
00:26:36.460 more women.
00:26:37.800 Uh, so, you know, that is at the beginnings of the body positivity movement, which I think
00:26:42.900 now has turned a bit toxic and dangerous possibly, but I, you know, again, it's all in execution,
00:26:49.080 right.
00:26:49.240 But then sometime, you know, like, like, I think it's great to see a woman who is 5'4 and
00:26:54.860 135 pounds in an ad.
00:26:57.360 Yeah, I would agree.
00:26:58.260 That's someone I can look at and go, that looks like me.
00:27:01.360 I know kind of what I might look like in those jeans.
00:27:04.500 Um, but then somewhere in the late 2010s, it did start to go woke.
00:27:12.100 And I think this is an attempt by, for whatever reason, corporate America seems to be now populated,
00:27:18.920 at least on the coast, which is where a lot of major companies are by people who at least
00:27:23.020 pretend to be very left wing.
00:27:25.380 I'm not even going to say whether they are.
00:27:26.840 And I think it's an attempt to profit off of millennial and Gen Z activism.
00:27:31.240 You know, that's a cynical view, but it's truthful.
00:27:32.960 I've been in the boardroom.
00:27:34.220 Um, I, I, you know, I, I think it's a shield from scrutiny.
00:27:39.720 It's like the press loves it.
00:27:41.740 You know, they love these left wing stances, and they champion and celebrate these leaders
00:27:45.920 because of it.
00:27:46.620 And they don't interrogate the business.
00:27:48.700 I think Sam Bankman Freed is a great example of that from FTX, you know, he, and Elizabeth
00:27:54.140 Holmes featured on every magazine cover, pretending to be saving the world.
00:27:57.900 And nobody investigated the fact that their businesses were shams.
00:28:01.520 And so, you know, I think it's, um, it sounds like a cynical view, but I think it's correct.
00:28:07.260 And what I would like to see is, is the other thing I will say is these leaders, there is
00:28:14.420 a part of them.
00:28:15.080 They love to be celebrated.
00:28:16.220 It's not cool to be rich anymore.
00:28:17.900 You're supposed to denounce your privilege.
00:28:19.460 So this is their way of doing it, right?
00:28:21.360 They pretend they're saving the world and that they never meant to get really rich, which
00:28:24.840 is false.
00:28:25.340 You don't make $40 million without meaning to, you know?
00:28:30.360 Um, and in, in fact, at Levi's in 2020, we laid off 15% of the workforce and the CEO
00:28:36.440 simultaneously cashed out $43 million in stock.
00:28:39.700 And he said that the layoffs were done with empathy and that we were worker focused.
00:28:43.660 So again, it's always really about enriching themselves, but shielding themselves from
00:28:49.200 scrutiny.
00:28:49.720 And that's where, for me, the hypocrisy just gets too great to stand by and not say anything.
00:28:56.300 And then it all intensified in the summer of 2020.
00:28:59.500 So that's when every company on the planet started to disavow their racism and their white
00:29:04.660 privilege and pledged to make a difference by posting black squares on Instagram, but not
00:29:08.460 really doing anything else.
00:29:09.620 And to your point about, you know, doing things to save face or just having a facade of empathy
00:29:26.240 and activism while different things are going on behind the scenes that the press doesn't
00:29:30.320 really care about, like Levi's, you said at first they decided not to manufacture out
00:29:34.980 of China, but they do now, right?
00:29:36.400 Like, I think I've noticed that plenty of Levi's things are made in China, right?
00:29:40.440 Even while talking about social justice and equality here.
00:29:44.620 It's an interesting point you make.
00:29:46.980 Levi's actually doesn't manufacture in China.
00:29:49.420 They did for a time and they pulled out.
00:29:52.560 That's interesting.
00:29:53.760 They do sell there.
00:29:56.040 Okay.
00:29:56.360 For some reason, I thought that some things I saw from Levi's were made in China, but I
00:30:02.540 guess not.
00:30:03.480 That's good.
00:30:03.820 It's vanishingly small.
00:30:05.720 If there is some, it's vanishingly small.
00:30:07.900 They've quietly pulled out.
00:30:08.960 I'm always excited about that.
00:30:09.960 It is good.
00:30:10.420 I'm always excited when things are not made in China for the very reasons that they didn't
00:30:14.400 want to manufacture out of China in the first place.
00:30:17.780 It's a complicated process, supply chains, because there's, you know, there's putting the
00:30:22.520 product together there in factories, which Levi's doesn't do, but a good portion of the
00:30:26.760 world's cotton has actually grown in China.
00:30:28.800 And I can't say with certainty whether or not they're using cotton.
00:30:33.400 And a lot of the world's organic cotton is grown.
00:30:37.700 I think a huge percent of the world's organic cotton is grown in the Xinjiang province, which
00:30:41.920 is where the Uyghur slave labor is used.
00:30:44.280 Yeah.
00:30:44.460 It is a complicated process, but you, you, it would be great even with all the complications
00:30:49.960 for like the companies that do not just manufacture in China, but cater to China in so many ways,
00:30:55.320 like the NBA, at least just have like a little bit of humility to say, you know what, this
00:30:59.800 is complicated.
00:31:00.500 We understand there are human rights abuses here.
00:31:02.700 That's why, you know, we, we're not, you know, shouting down people in the U.S. who don't
00:31:07.960 agree with us ideologically, but there's like no humility whatsoever.
00:31:11.320 It's just, you're on the wrong side if you don't agree with us, even as no, no company,
00:31:18.900 whether they manufacture there or not to protect themselves from the scrutiny that would come
00:31:22.880 from manufacturing in China.
00:31:24.780 No company wants to disavow the authoritarian government in China because they do not want
00:31:30.460 to sacrifice the potential profits that can be made there simply due to the size of the
00:31:35.100 population and the ever growing middle and upper class.
00:31:38.220 And so Levi's, you know, we tried to walk a fine line there because we never wanted, if
00:31:43.300 you do, you know, disavow the government's tactics, if you do say anything about the fact
00:31:49.000 that there are Uyghurs in forced labor camps, you will be boycotted in China and the consumers
00:31:55.940 will not buy your product.
00:31:57.440 So companies try to walk a line, which is what we saw with the NBA, right?
00:32:00.920 They want to avail themselves of the billions of dollars.
00:32:03.320 Um, and, and so no one within the NBA can criticize the Chinese regime, which is, you know, exactly
00:32:10.480 what we saw.
00:32:11.200 It's all about money at the end of the day, which, you know what, I understand the company
00:32:15.920 needs to make a profit.
00:32:16.880 I'm not saying that they shouldn't, but maybe they should not talk about politics here then
00:32:20.180 either, if that's going to be their stance in China.
00:32:22.580 Um, okay.
00:32:23.860 I want to talk about, I do want, I do want to talk about your, your, um, your book, which
00:32:28.340 is amazing, but I want to talk about these studies that were recently published one by
00:32:33.500 NBC, the other one I saw published by Fox news, but there are studies that are just kind
00:32:37.960 of being talked about in those outlets and your response to them.
00:32:40.980 Um, first let's talk about this mask study.
00:32:43.620 This was the first one.
00:32:45.220 Um, this is the first one that I saw.
00:32:47.440 This is actually from reason.
00:32:49.240 And this came out at the beginning of February, interestingly reason.com says 12 trials in
00:32:54.260 the review, 10 in the community and two among healthcare workers found that wearing masks
00:32:57.580 in the community probably makes little or no difference to influenza like or COVID-19 like
00:33:03.300 illness transmission equally.
00:33:05.400 The review found that masks had no effect on laboratory confirmed influenza or SARS-CoV-2
00:33:11.240 outcomes.
00:33:12.220 Five other trials showed no difference between one type of mask over another.
00:33:17.140 Other studies that have tried to uncover the efficacy of mask requirements have tended to
00:33:20.780 compare one municipality with another without taking into account relevant differences between
00:33:25.540 groups.
00:33:26.100 This of course is what David Zwick, he wrote for the New Yorker a while ago, I think in
00:33:30.480 2021.
00:33:31.540 And again, this is someone who probably considers himself on the left saying, you know what,
00:33:35.820 even the CDC studies saying that masks are so great in schools.
00:33:41.080 Once you dig into the studies, they don't actually prove that because they don't take into account
00:33:45.720 all the other factors.
00:33:47.260 And this was one of the things that you talked about.
00:33:49.420 Of course, we've talked about on this podcast that forcing kids to mask or daycare workers
00:33:54.520 to mask is actually going to have more negative consequences than positive outcomes.
00:34:00.160 And again, people are called crazy conspiracy theorists, anti-science, you know, MAGA zealots
00:34:08.660 or whatever for questioning this.
00:34:10.700 And yet here we are yet again, studies showing that that's actually true.
00:34:16.600 Yeah.
00:34:17.300 The study you're referring to is the Cochran.
00:34:19.860 It was published.
00:34:20.560 It was called the Cochran study.
00:34:22.120 And it's actually a meta analysis of 78 studies, randomized control trials that have been done
00:34:28.440 on mass.
00:34:29.640 So there's not a new study in there.
00:34:31.180 It just sort of puts together the 78 studies that includes a million people.
00:34:35.320 And in all 78, as you just indicated, there was no discernible impact from mask wearing
00:34:43.120 on adults in the community.
00:34:45.300 So why we would think if adults, you know, and of course, the response from public health
00:34:51.120 at this point and Michelle Walensky is, well, they're just not wearing them right.
00:34:54.440 Well, in 78 studies, if it doesn't work in real life and it doesn't work, it's like telling
00:34:59.940 somebody if you eat only broccoli for the next year, you'll lose weight.
00:35:04.440 But if the person can't do that and eat only broccoli, then that's not an effective dieting
00:35:09.400 strategy.
00:35:10.720 So it matters that in the real world, it doesn't work.
00:35:15.900 And the only place that it ever, quote unquote, worked was in models, which are imaginary and
00:35:21.540 in a lab with mannequins.
00:35:23.320 Well, that's not real.
00:35:24.300 That's not a randomized control trial.
00:35:26.220 And the onus was always on the CDC and public health to prove that an intervention worked
00:35:32.020 before making us do it because there are harm.
00:35:35.520 And, you know, I have four children.
00:35:37.920 I know that my children, when they were two years old, even up to four or five years old,
00:35:42.320 they didn't even put their shoes on the right feet.
00:35:44.260 Sometimes they're wearing diapers still at two and three years old.
00:35:47.920 How do we think they can wear a mask correctly in such a way that even if worn perfectly was
00:35:52.900 going to stop or slow transmission?
00:35:54.760 I mean, it's absurd on its face.
00:35:56.640 And yet a two-year-old is the one who most needs to see faces, right?
00:36:00.380 They're learning to talk.
00:36:01.520 They're learning to emotionally connect.
00:36:03.680 And the adverse impacts to me were clear all along.
00:36:07.360 And we are seeing tons of speech delays, developmental delays.
00:36:12.280 And yet, even after the Cochran study was published, elementary schools in Marin County re-implemented
00:36:19.580 a mask mandate just a couple weeks ago.
00:36:22.280 So they're just doubling down.
00:36:24.360 It's just they, it's like the science now is just, you know, a tagline.
00:36:29.440 And you pledge your allegiance to the science by wearing a mask.
00:36:32.740 It doesn't matter if it works or not.
00:36:34.360 And if you don't want to wear a mask, then you reveal yourself as, you know, of the other side.
00:36:39.860 It's like, I know everyone's heard of virtue signaling and it is kind of virtue signaling,
00:36:44.380 but I think maybe an even more accurate description of what it is, is empathy signaling.
00:36:48.560 It's like, I'm signaling my empathy by wearing a mask or encouraging people to wear a mask
00:36:53.660 or saying the right thing, posting the black square, even if there is no evidence in my life
00:36:59.560 of me caring about these things or no evidence that this action that I'm doing actually mitigates
00:37:04.240 any risk for anyone.
00:37:05.300 At least I'm signaling empathy.
00:37:07.100 At least I'm quote unquote doing something.
00:37:10.480 And that seems to be the only thing people care about.
00:37:14.560 Yeah.
00:37:15.060 It doesn't even have to actually be empathetic.
00:37:17.320 It just signals it.
00:37:18.420 It's not empathetic to people who are hard of hearing, who rely on lip reading.
00:37:22.260 I mean, I have a friend who is deaf.
00:37:23.860 This has been a really horrible time for her.
00:37:25.880 She stopped leaving the house for a year.
00:37:28.020 She stopped leaving her house for an entire year.
00:37:30.280 She had to quit her job because she dealt with the public and she couldn't speak to people
00:37:33.700 and understand what they were saying and people would tell her, just wear a clear mask.
00:37:38.040 Well, what does it do for her if she wears a clear mask?
00:37:40.880 She's reading their lips.
00:37:42.900 So unless we're going to require everyone.
00:37:45.080 So, you know, it doesn't, it's not empathetic.
00:37:48.200 It's not empathetic for children learning to speak.
00:37:50.620 It's not empathetic for the hard of hearing.
00:37:53.420 It's not empathetic for many, many children on the autism spectrum.
00:37:59.260 It's not empathetic for children with disabilities.
00:38:03.520 So it doesn't even have to actually be empathetic.
00:38:06.360 It just sort of says I am and then you don't have to do anything.
00:38:09.020 And you know what?
00:38:10.220 It's not that different from woke capitalism, right?
00:38:12.660 Like if you buy a t-shirt with a rainbow logo on it, you say I'm aligned with equality and
00:38:20.320 the LGBTQ community, but you don't actually have to do anything.
00:38:23.140 You just spend $12 on a t-shirt.
00:38:25.280 Yep, exactly.
00:38:26.600 It's lazy activism.
00:38:28.420 It's not, I mean, it's hollow activism.
00:38:30.060 It's not even real.
00:38:31.480 My kids were born in 2019 and 2021.
00:38:34.760 So right in the thick of it, and thankfully I live in a conservative state where this wasn't
00:38:39.860 required, and even if it was required for a period of time, like you really could walk
00:38:43.440 into a store and you couldn't wear a mask and maybe no one would say anything, but it
00:38:47.780 still affected our lives in traveling.
00:38:50.300 You know, my oldest turned two during this time and she was required to wear a mask when
00:38:55.760 we, when we tried to fly to, you know, see my husband's family and we just didn't,
00:39:02.720 you know, we, we couldn't do it.
00:39:04.420 We couldn't go visit family in other States because I knew she wasn't going to wear a mask.
00:39:08.440 She's two years old.
00:39:09.620 I mean, as you said, think about all the things that you want your two-year-old to do that
00:39:13.660 they just cannot do.
00:39:15.260 And I had seen all those terrible, cruel videos of families being thrown off of planes because
00:39:21.920 the two-year-olds wouldn't keep the mask on or a kid with special needs wouldn't keep
00:39:25.560 the mask on.
00:39:26.580 And so even for those of us who are in red States, I mean, it's still affected our lives
00:39:31.940 in tangible ways that these arbitrary requirements were even there.
00:39:35.500 And now like, are we going to get an apology?
00:39:37.760 Are we going to hear any sort of indication from the people who put these things on us?
00:39:43.080 I doubt it.
00:39:46.120 Yeah, I don't expect an apology anytime soon.
00:39:49.240 I mean, one of the things that is striking that's happening right now, which you alluded
00:39:52.740 to earlier, is there is acknowledgement of the harms at this point.
00:39:56.100 So there's acknowledgement that learning loss is actually real and that it's impacted low
00:40:01.160 income children, black children and brown children the most, which is what I had said
00:40:05.220 would happen from the beginning.
00:40:06.860 There is acknowledgement of the mental health impacts that kids, teenagers, teenage girls
00:40:13.420 in particular are depressed and anxious in greater numbers than we've ever seen before,
00:40:18.980 which again was totally predictable.
00:40:20.680 What there isn't is any desire to hold anyone accountable.
00:40:25.360 And that's what I will continue to push for because these were policy choices.
00:40:30.120 Let's be clear.
00:40:31.240 The way that it's written about at this point is, well, COVID did this to our kids.
00:40:35.700 No, COVID didn't do it to our kids.
00:40:37.920 The restrictions that were policies put in place by democratic leaders, but like my former
00:40:43.740 governor, Gavin Newsom, as well as, you know, public health bureaucrats, the CDC,
00:40:48.720 these are policy choices that were made.
00:40:51.380 And there were leaders that made different choices all across Europe.
00:40:55.480 There's not another country in the world that masks two-year-olds, not another country in
00:41:00.660 the world.
00:41:01.660 And then you have, of course, you know, red states where schools all open by the fall.
00:41:06.360 And the outcomes were no worse, in some cases better.
00:41:10.820 In fact, when you normalize per age, et cetera, you know, when we look at Florida, the outcomes
00:41:14.780 in Florida and California are exactly the same when you normalize per age.
00:41:19.280 Obviously, Florida has a large elderly population.
00:41:22.760 But Ron DeSantis was very aggressive in getting the schools open.
00:41:25.900 And he did.
00:41:26.520 And they're not seeing the same learning loss or impact to the economy, you know, if we
00:41:31.400 go outside of children and, you know, from lockdowns, et cetera.
00:41:34.280 So I agree with you.
00:41:37.180 We will not get an apology.
00:41:38.900 In fact, there are pleas for amnesty because the rationale, and I'm sure you saw the piece
00:41:42.880 in The Atlantic pleading for amnesty, the rationale there being, well, we didn't know
00:41:48.180 it was the fog of war.
00:41:49.900 Good people, you know, maybe didn't make quite the right decision, but they did it for the
00:41:54.060 right reasons.
00:41:55.000 Whereas the implication in the piece is that people like me are bad people advocating for
00:42:00.380 the right thing for the wrong reasons.
00:42:01.820 So I'm still a bad person.
00:42:03.300 So I deserve no amnesty.
00:42:04.780 And I want to talk about the immunity, the immunity piece in just a second.
00:42:21.280 But what you're saying, it reminded me of this Thomas Sowell quote that I just find to
00:42:25.540 be true so often.
00:42:26.660 He said, it is hard to imagine a more stupid and more dangerous way of making decisions
00:42:31.980 than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong.
00:42:38.780 And I would add to that who actually get paid for being wrong.
00:42:43.220 Fauci, Walensky, all of these public health ministers that are making these decisions.
00:42:48.940 Not only will they not get fired, will they not be held accountable for making decisions
00:42:53.720 that had such terrible consequences on so many vulnerable populations, but they will actually
00:42:58.940 probably fail upward because of it.
00:43:02.260 Oh, yeah.
00:43:02.860 That's a really bad way of making decisions.
00:43:04.720 Randy Weingarten, too.
00:43:07.520 Yeah.
00:43:08.120 I mean, I have nothing to add.
00:43:09.200 I couldn't agree more.
00:43:10.460 You know, the heads of the teachers unions harmed children.
00:43:14.800 Oh, yes.
00:43:15.620 You know, Randy Weingarten was very vocal and, you know, took her platform wherever she
00:43:20.640 could to insist that schools stay closed and colluded with the CDC to keep them closed when
00:43:25.640 they were going to make recommendations that would have allowed them to open.
00:43:28.760 Yep.
00:43:29.420 Rachel Levine did the same thing in Pennsylvania and then got into the Biden administration.
00:43:34.880 OK, I want to hear your commentary on this NBC report that says immunity acquired from
00:43:40.060 a COVID infection is as protective as vaccination against severe illness and death.
00:43:47.920 Study finds infection acquired immunity cut the risk of hospitalization and death from a
00:43:51.880 COVID reinfection by 88 percent for at least 10 months.
00:43:55.640 The study found this is something else, Jennifer, that I heard was a wild conspiracy theory.
00:44:01.420 I saw headline after headline that this was a right wing conspiracy theory, that there is
00:44:04.900 no such thing, Rochelle Walensky said, CDC director, as natural immunity.
00:44:11.300 What's your take?
00:44:14.220 It was a lie from the outset.
00:44:16.080 It was obvious it was a lie.
00:44:17.820 Is that true for any other disease?
00:44:19.460 If you've had measles, you have antibodies and you have immunity.
00:44:22.640 Now, COVID operates differently.
00:44:24.420 It's a little more like the flu.
00:44:25.860 You can get the flu and then you can get it again the next year or the next year.
00:44:30.100 You know, there is no 100 percent immunity.
00:44:32.800 But that was a lie in service of Vax uptake.
00:44:35.780 It was a law uptake.
00:44:37.080 It was a lie in service of vaccine passports.
00:44:41.100 It was a lie in service of big pharma.
00:44:43.920 Because at this point, almost everybody in the country, in the world has had COVID.
00:44:49.040 And if they had to acknowledge natural immunity, they wouldn't sell as many vaccines.
00:44:53.520 It's really that simple.
00:44:55.180 This is from it's from The Lancet.
00:44:57.260 The study is titled Pass SARS-CoV-2 Infection Protection Against Reinfection, a systematic review
00:45:01.560 and meta analysis.
00:45:03.520 The analysis showed that protection from past infection to any symptomatic disease was high
00:45:08.000 for ancestral alpha beta and delta variants, but was substantially lower for the Omicron
00:45:12.320 BA-1 variant.
00:45:13.320 So I'll link it in the description of this episode.
00:45:15.560 People can go read it for themselves if they would like to.
00:45:19.120 The point is, I didn't expect for everyone, including the so-called scientific community,
00:45:24.880 to know all of these things at the outset.
00:45:27.480 What I did expect or hope for was a little bit of humility and a little less cruelty towards
00:45:32.420 people saying, you know, that just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
00:45:36.420 And the risks to some of these measures seem to outweigh the benefits.
00:45:40.560 So let's pump the brakes.
00:45:42.440 And that's what we didn't see.
00:45:43.360 I mean, you lost your job because of it.
00:45:45.360 And I don't think you're going to be getting reparations anytime soon.
00:45:50.000 No, I don't either.
00:45:51.220 And the number of people who lost their jobs because they didn't take the vaccine, you know,
00:45:58.120 because they had had COVID.
00:46:00.240 And they nurses, doctors, you know, people at Levi's that I worked with, you know, there
00:46:04.600 were people that lost their job.
00:46:05.820 There was, until very recently, a vaccine mandate there.
00:46:09.820 Colleges still have booster mandates.
00:46:12.260 Young people who least need this vaccine, who have all had COVID at this point, which
00:46:16.700 means they have some measure of immunity.
00:46:18.940 There are many universities that still have a booster requirement.
00:46:23.300 And this is for young people.
00:46:24.720 And the cohort of young people, young men in particular, are most at risk from the vaccine.
00:46:29.700 We've seen myocarditis, pericarditis.
00:46:32.920 And so, you know, we're forced, we just seem to be obsessed with children and young people
00:46:38.040 and placing the onus of this, you know, disease on them.
00:46:43.020 And I don't understand it.
00:46:44.100 It's completely inverted from how society is supposed to operate, which is we are here
00:46:50.000 as adults to further the development of young people and not use them as our shield.
00:46:54.840 And that's not what's happening.
00:46:56.180 I mean, college students are literally some of the last people in the country required
00:47:00.080 to be vaxxed and boosted.
00:47:01.680 It just shows you also the bigger picture of our inverted and perverted values that we
00:47:06.760 have as a country.
00:47:07.740 I think selfishness in a lot of ways has been elevated as chief virtue.
00:47:12.960 And that's part of why empathy signaling and virtue signaling is so popular, because it's
00:47:18.180 really more about you and what you get from things rather than about other people.
00:47:23.440 That's a whole other conversation that we could have.
00:47:25.680 But I want to hear a little bit about your book.
00:47:28.300 Levi's Unbutton, The Woke Mob Took My Job, But Gave Me My Voice.
00:47:33.600 What are people going to get out of this when they read it?
00:47:37.680 Well, what I hope they get, and, you know, I cover a lot of the ground that we just covered.
00:47:41.840 I do sort of analyze woke capitalism and how that emerged and kind of where it's going
00:47:46.500 and what I think the solution is, which is what I would call normie capitalism.
00:47:51.060 But it's also a memoir about being a woman in the corporate world for close to 30 years.
00:47:55.320 But what I hope people get out of it, it really is an exhortation to screw up your courage a
00:48:00.520 little bit and say, call out the lies.
00:48:04.440 You know, I know people are scared to do it.
00:48:06.680 62% of Americans feel they can't really say what they think.
00:48:09.820 I think there's a lot of people that agree with, that agreed with me this whole time
00:48:14.680 on a lot of this, that agreed with you, but they were too afraid to say it.
00:48:18.060 But if we'd all stood up and said something, we would have stood together.
00:48:21.820 And the fact is, then the schools would have opened sooner and we wouldn't have harmed
00:48:25.340 children.
00:48:26.020 And so it's really just an exhortation to stand up and say what you believe.
00:48:33.640 Even if I don't believe with you, I believe, even if I don't believe the same thing as you,
00:48:37.680 I want you to say what you do believe.
00:48:39.940 And I will stand by your right to say it.
00:48:41.840 I will defend that.
00:48:43.560 Yes.
00:48:43.960 And we need people to do it more.
00:48:46.120 You know, the day after I publicly resigned, three members of the San Francisco school board
00:48:50.020 were recalled decisively.
00:48:51.680 70% of San Francisco voters recalled them for failing to open schools.
00:48:56.560 When I was leading rallies, they were sparsely attended.
00:48:59.360 People were afraid to show up and say that they had this view.
00:49:02.480 They weren't afraid at the ballot box when it was anonymous.
00:49:04.820 If they'd shown up at the rallies, if they resisted, we wouldn't have harmed kids.
00:49:10.660 So it really is just, you know, it's about the need to get back to open debate and dissent
00:49:15.500 in this country so we can discuss things to get to some agreement and to some version of
00:49:21.200 truth that is not just government issued talking points.
00:49:25.260 Because what we deal with now as truth, it's propaganda.
00:49:28.820 Yeah.
00:49:29.200 Yep.
00:49:29.560 There's something that we say on our show that you exemplify so well, and that is to
00:49:35.460 share the arrows.
00:49:36.820 So when you see someone stand up, whether it's standing up to the school board, standing up
00:49:40.700 to the local government, standing up to the school administration, whatever it is, about
00:49:44.640 a policy that they know is wrong, that they know is unjust, stating something that's unpopular
00:49:48.820 on social media.
00:49:49.900 And you see that person being maligned, being bullied, being unfairly treated because of their
00:49:55.200 stance rather than saying, which this is what most people do, ooh, I'm glad that's not me.
00:49:59.920 Now I'm not going to speak up.
00:50:01.200 I'm not going to say anything.
00:50:02.100 Maybe I'll kind of pat them on the back privately to let them know I'm thinking about them,
00:50:06.060 but I'm not going to join them.
00:50:08.140 What is a lot more powerful, and I can totally understand that this is not easy to do, but
00:50:13.400 it's to stand up and say, you know what, whatever arrows you're throwing to her, you can
00:50:17.380 throw my way too.
00:50:18.400 I'll take them.
00:50:19.400 Because when that happens, courage can really be contagious.
00:50:22.800 And that is, as you said, when things make a difference, you understood that your role
00:50:28.040 as a leader in that company, even though it ended your relationship with that company,
00:50:31.740 was to give cover to people that didn't have as much influence as you did.
00:50:35.980 And I just want to say thank you, because you're still doing that.
00:50:38.960 You did not have to do what you're doing now.
00:50:41.340 It would have been a lot easier for you to just be quiet.
00:50:45.100 And you didn't.
00:50:46.080 So I just want to say thanks.
00:50:47.760 And I'm sure there are a lot of parents out there listening that also are grateful for
00:50:51.980 you that you kept pushing, because maybe it seems like people didn't listen to you in
00:50:56.240 the moment.
00:50:56.920 But what flap of the butterfly wing actually, you know, moved the needle and changed the
00:51:03.220 game?
00:51:03.400 Because now a lot of those vaccine mandates, they are gone.
00:51:06.720 Now NBC is brave enough to put out a headline like that.
00:51:09.740 It would not have happened if not for a bunch of Jennifer Sayes out there doing what you did.
00:51:14.820 So I just wanted to say I'm grateful for that.
00:51:16.680 That's very kind.
00:51:19.320 Yeah.
00:51:19.640 I mean, you know, look, we had little wins along the way.
00:51:22.320 It sounds small, but the playground's open due to parent pushback in San Francisco.
00:51:28.380 Now, it took us nine months, which is ridiculous that outdoor playgrounds were closed for nine
00:51:33.040 months.
00:51:33.720 But it did happen.
00:51:34.980 And so I had faith that if I kept trying and kept pushing and maintain my calm diplomacy,
00:51:40.340 that I could make a difference.
00:51:41.860 It just, you know, the clock got the better of me.
00:51:46.260 And I lost my job before that was possible.
00:51:48.380 But I don't regret it.
00:51:50.140 It was the right thing to do.
00:51:51.640 And I could not have looked myself in the mirror.
00:51:53.660 And I do think over time, we will bring more people along.
00:51:56.420 And I think, you know, if I'm making predictions, I think in a long time from now, but I think
00:52:02.400 10 years from now, it's going to be hard to find anyone that said they vociferously supported
00:52:07.100 school closures and restrictions to children.
00:52:09.140 And they're all going to pretend they didn't.
00:52:10.700 And you know what?
00:52:11.400 I welcome them.
00:52:13.620 Let's make sure it never happens again.
00:52:15.520 Yes.
00:52:15.700 And amen.
00:52:16.120 Well, thank you so much, Jennifer.
00:52:17.220 I really encourage everyone to go out and get her book, Levi's Unbuttoned.
00:52:20.700 We'll put the link in the description and all that in the description of this episode.
00:52:26.200 Jennifer, thank you so much.
00:52:27.520 I really appreciate you taking the time.
00:52:29.720 People can also follow you on Twitter and all that good stuff too, right?
00:52:34.000 Yep.
00:52:34.360 Just my name.
00:52:35.120 I always use my real name.
00:52:36.460 Always did.
00:52:37.060 And that's probably where I, my first mistake, but yep, I'm on Twitter.
00:52:41.760 Yeah.
00:52:42.220 Well, that's part of the courage.
00:52:44.180 So thank you so much, Jennifer.
00:52:47.020 Really nice to meet you, Alibeth.
00:52:48.480 Thank you for having me.