Ep 777 ｜ On Duggar Theology, Josh’s Arrest, & Media Lies ｜ Guests： Jinger Duggar Vuolo & Jeremy Vuolo
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Summary
Ginger and Jeremy Volo join me in studio to talk about her new book, Becoming Free Indeed. This is a continuation of our first interview with Ginger a couple months ago where we talked about her story, her upbringing, the theology of the Duggar family, and learning what the real liberating gospel is.
Transcript
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Ginger Duggar Volo and her husband, Jeremy Volo, are joining us today in studio. This is
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a continuation of the first interview I had with Ginger a couple months ago about her new book,
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Becoming Free Indeed. This is about her story, her upbringing, the theology of the Duggars,
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and learning what the real liberating gospel is. So we'll be getting more deeply into what it was
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growing up as a Duggar, what that theology really looks like, what the gospel truly is. But we'll
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also be talking about some tough subjects, like how her brother Josh's conviction for consuming
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child sex abuse material affected her, what her relationship is like with her family today.
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You're going to be so edified by Ginger and both Ginger and Jeremy's love for Christ and love for
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the gospel. Also stick around for the very end of this episode where we will finally be announcing
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our giveaway winners. And also just one last thing, please bear with me as I am suffering from a bout
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of allergies. Thankfully, I am not the one mostly talking in today's episode. It's going to be an
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amazing episode. You're going to love it. It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
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Go to GoodRanchers.com. Use promo code ALI at checkout. That's GoodRanchers.com. Code ALI.
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Jeremy, Ginger, thanks so much for joining me on the couch. My second guest ever in my new studio.
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Y'all are matching. Thanks for having us. Yeah, we planned this. We just decided to match your new
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set. I love it. I love it. Thanks. Okay. Tell me what the response has been to your book. I mean,
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I've seen you so many places since I first talked to you in January. It seems like it's just
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like making waves. It's been insane, really. I think we've had so many amazing responses,
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good and bad. So, I mean, you always have that when you put something out. But I feel like
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in this season, it's been more encouraging than anything because so many people have been able
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to relate to my journey that I've been coming out of Bill Gothard's teaching and this bad theology.
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And a lot of them have been in something similar, even if it wasn't Bill Gothard's teaching and have
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been helped by the book. So it's been really, really well worth it. Yeah. Tell me about some of the
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negative reactions. Like what's been some criticism? Yeah, I think it's interesting. Anytime you put
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something out there and you're in a public place, you know that there is going to be pushback and
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there's going to be some people who hate it. And so I've experienced a little bit of that.
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But like I said, more of it has been positive, which I was surprised how much positive feedback
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I've gotten. Negative from people who like Bill Gothard and think that his teachings are good or
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where is it coming from? You know, I think some people really hoped that this book would be
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something other than it was. They thought maybe Ginger will start to walk away from Christianity
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and they hoped for that. Then we also had, you know, a couple of people who are still in these
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teachings of Bill Gothard's wanted me to not say anything. And so I know that that is always going
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to be there because a lot of them would view him as like a prophet sent from God to tell us this truth.
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And so I can see how they would view that speaking out against him. So a couple different places
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you've had pushback. Was there ever a time, and again, people can go back and listen to our first
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conversation where you talk about you guys meeting and you kind of understanding, oh, wow, what Bill
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Gothard taught is not actually the gospel. This is not what it looks like to glorify God. Was there ever
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a time though during that period where you did question your faith altogether? Did you ever say,
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is any of this real if what I grew up with isn't real? You know, it's interesting. I looked at that
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season where I was coming out of those teachings. God used Jeremy in such a helpful way, like just to,
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he had to go through 60 plus hours of those teachings, which I think we talked about before.
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But in that season, because I was going to the word of God, I was a believer at that time. I was
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saved at the age of 14. So my heart, all I wanted to know was what does God's word actually say? And
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once I realized that these teachings that Bill Gothard said were Bible, they weren't Bible,
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that for me was a shift because then I started going back to those, um, the seminars and it's
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like examining it according to the word of God and saw, okay, this does not line up. And then that
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process and that journey actually was, it was hard because yeah, you have that, that pause of like,
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ah, well then what is true? I need to know because I love Jesus. So I did not, I did not go to it
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looking like, okay, how can I just tear my faith apart? Like the deconstruction movement. But for me,
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I was coming at this looking and saying, okay, how, how can I see who God truly is? So going to God's
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word, that was what gave me comfort and joy in that season, even though it was really difficult.
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Um, so I wasn't like trying to throw everything off. I was just looking for answers in God's word.
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Yeah. And one of the most fascinating parts I thought of our conversation was you explaining
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how you met Jeremy and what that kind of dating process was like and how you had to kind of as
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part of what your dad wanted, you had to sit through these 60 hours of Bill Gothard's teaching.
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So before I hear your perspective on that, tell me a little bit about your faith background. You
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didn't grow up the same way that Ginger did. No, not at all. Uh, I grew up in a reform Baptist
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home. My dad was a pastor. And so, uh, definitely grew up in the church, um, hearing the word of God
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every week. And so Calvinist. Yeah. Yeah. I happen to be, I do happen to be a Calvinist.
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Oh my goodness. That was, that was interesting because that was, um, as much as I was having to
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kind of learn about Ginger's faith and worldview, I think her and her family had to learn about mine
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too. So it was like this interesting, we're like informing each other. Um, and the Calvinism, uh,
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question was, was a fascinating one. Uh, a lot of those conversations, uh, about Calvinism revolved
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around what Calvinism actually isn't and trying to help people understand that it's just, you know,
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so there, there were some bad impressions from, yeah, there, there was, there was, you know,
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the, the C word, the Calvinism word was, was scary because, uh, you know, people had certain
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misconceptions of what that meant. You believed. Um, but my background was just in a, in a, uh,
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reformed Baptist home. Dad's, you know, the godliest man. I know my hero, my mom, an amazing woman
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who was a professional violinist chose to stay home and raise me and my brother and sister.
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Um, really sweet, wonderful upbringing, uh, but definitely in, in the faith. Um, I had those
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years where I had to kind of discover my faith for myself. So the last couple of years of high
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school, first couple of years of college, um, things got a bit, a bit crazy at times, but,
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um, the Lord was just kind of allowing me to walk through some things so that I knew why I
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believed what I believed. Um, so by the time I met Ginger, I was pretty established. I was
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pastoring a church, uh, in Texas. Um, and so, yeah, definitely from a different background.
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So walking into actually where we met, uh, in Texas, uh, was an IBLP, um, family camp, family
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conference. That is the Institute in Basic Life Principles. So it's the, it's a Bill Gothard
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Bill Gothards. Right. Conference for families to come to. And so I kind of walked into that
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unaware of, of what that was. Um, but then I met this pretty girl. So. Yeah. And y'all met through
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a mutual friend and had you watched her on TLC? Like, were you aware of what the Duggars were?
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Kind of funny actually. Yeah. I was aware. Um, I had seen some of the show. Um, my pastor actually
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in Texas, his family would watch it a lot. Yeah. And I remember actually seeing like Ben and Jessa
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on the cover of a people magazine and taking pictures and sending it to that pastor's kids
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like, Oh, look who I saw on the magazine. Yeah. And that's before I ever met anyone. So
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I was aware. Um, I'd actually kind of make fun of the show a lot. I just thought it was
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like silly reality, you know? Uh, but that changed when I, when he joined the show, yeah, that
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was ironic. I mean, man, never saw that coming, but yeah. Um, yeah. So, so we met and, uh,
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it took a little while for us to, I mean, we started having a mutual, um, interest in
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each other, but that was at the start of 2015. I met Ginger.
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So you were aware then that there would be theological differences just from what you
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So I didn't watch the show that in depth. I just, I just kind of saw a conservative
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Yeah. I think that's what most people probably saw.
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I, I didn't really start to realize there was theological differences until, um, meeting
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actually more of like her family, but then friends around the family. And we talked about
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Calvinism some and I went, Oh, interesting. Okay. So the, you know, might have a different
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view on that. I did not know about Bill Gothard until, until I started listening to his actual
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seminars. And even at the start, it was kind of like a, it was like a slow introduction.
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I thought, okay, this guy's got some interesting things to say, but then we really started to
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get into, uh, the seminars and then we started, uh, our relationship and we're continuing to
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listen to those and then started listening together. And that's when a lot of the deeper
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And how quickly after meeting did you realize, well, there are probably going to be some differences
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here that he needs to know about. Like even before your dad said that he needed to sit
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through these Gothard teachings for me, I knew that anyone coming into our family would
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probably, if they weren't from outside of Phil Gothard's teachings, like they never grew
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up listening to the seminars, they would need to know what we believed, what I believed, because
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I thought these, these convictions I was holding were based in the Bible. So those outward
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standards of like, you know, only wearing skirts, um, and courtship being the only way to honor God
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and, uh, avoiding music with drums, all of those things that I thought were so big finances,
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never going into debt for even a home, anything, those were my core values. And so I thought whoever
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comes on the scene, if they're outside of these teachings, they will have to, at some point,
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I'm going to tell, you know, Jeremy, when he came on the scene, I was like, he's so different.
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It's kind of scary to think about, you know, courting him at that time, I guess you'd say.
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But, um, it's interesting because I remember telling my mom, I said, I feel like I, I, I went
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on this mission trip and came back and told her, I said, I feel safe with him. And this was before
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we were talking. I just had interest in him. And I said, because it's not because of any outward
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stuff. I said, it's just his heart. Like I could just see, I can see that he loves Jesus. He loves
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the word of God. He knows the word of God. And that stood out to me. And I said, because of his
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relationship with Jesus, that's what makes me know that I would be safe with him if we were in a
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relationship. So, um, it was interesting because I never would have said that years before it would
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have been something that had made me afraid. Like I would have been very scared and I never
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would have pursued a relationship with somebody outside of IVLP because I thought that those
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principles were the way to success. And if you didn't have all of these teachings, you were not
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going to be okay. Yeah. And that's something that we talked about last time that you feared that so
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much that if you broke one of those principles or rules, it wasn't just, oh, maybe things wouldn't
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work out, but that you would, I mean, something bad could imminently happen to you. Right.
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I thought maybe I could be killed in a car accident. If I went to broomball to play a sport
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with my siblings when I thought, okay, I'm supposed to stay home and read my Bible for two hours,
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or maybe I'm supposed to not go somewhere, not do something. Or like it leaves, it leaves you
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in a place where you're very superstitious. You just think that God is out to get you. And it's
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such a crippling thing because I just really did not know. I was like, I read the word of God. Okay.
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The word of God has these answers, but because Bill Gothard would teach these teachings on top of it,
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I felt like, man, there is just, there is no way I can ever know what God expects of me fully.
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Yeah. So that was, it was really sad. It's so interesting that you always kind of felt
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in danger. And then this rule breaker that you met, Jeremy actually made you feel safe. And that's
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interesting because you thought that these rules were keeping you safe. And then this person who
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wasn't keeping all of those so-called rules actually made you feel safe, which I think there's something
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to be said about the Holy Spirit's working in that. Yeah. Yeah. It was a, it was a neat thing to see
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because I got to see firsthand like his heart and in that setting, like you can, you can see people
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who walk with Jesus, but I still would like almost judge them because I would think, oh, you just don't
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know the principles. You don't know these. So you're not as really, you're not as holy as we are, or you
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are going to bring, you know, there's going to be disaster in your life and then you're going to turn
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into the principles. So I would always look at people like that and it just wasn't the case with
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Jeremy. Yeah. And this is when y'all were still kind of friends. This is 2014. 15. 15. Yeah, 15.
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Okay. And then once y'all actually started dating or what your family called courting, this was about
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2015, right? And then when Ginger's dad said, well, okay, you got to sit through the 60 hours,
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these 60 hours of Bill Gothard's teachings. Tell me about that. What was that like? You said at first,
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it was like, okay, he's got some interesting things, but. Yeah. He, so he just asked me to
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listen to, um, I think he asked me to listen to the basic seminar, which is kind of the introduction
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to Bill Gothard's theology. I may have started listening to the advanced seminar accidentally.
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And so the advanced seminar, when I listened to the first three or four sessions,
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he, he's, he's an interesting teacher. He's got, um, he's, he's very easy to listen to.
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Yeah. And so he pulls in with stories, he pulls in with problems like facing, uh, the society. So
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he was talking about humanism and how humanism doesn't satisfy the human problem and the human
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heart. And he was showing how we need to go to God's word to satisfy, you know, um, our longings and,
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um, to solve all these problems in society. So he had some interesting things to say initially,
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and that was honestly, my initial reaction was like, okay, he's got some interesting philosophical
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ideas, but I knew pretty quickly that this guy wasn't teaching the Bible. He was using the Bible
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to kind of accomplish his goal. Like, I want to talk about identity. So here's a verse about identity.
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And then he would talk, but he wouldn't, you know, I grew up in churches where, um, they would go
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verse by verse explaining the Bible. So for me, a Bible teacher is, you just open your,
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open the word and tell me what it says. So I remember telling Ginger in one of our first
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conversations, she asked me about like the seminars, like, what do you think about him?
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And I just said, yeah, so, uh, he's got some interesting things to say. He's not a Bible
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teacher, but he's got some like interesting philosophy. And I was even then starting to realize
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that some of the stuff he was saying would be problematic. I just didn't know to what extent.
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Yeah. Um, but I think that caught her off guard. I, you know, definitely did.
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So when he said he's not a Bible teacher where you're like, what are you talking about?
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What are you talking about? This guy is the best Bible teacher in the whole world. You're
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just learning of him. Don't worry. Yeah. Um, so it's interesting cause that was just a couple
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of seminars in and it kind of starts out. Okay. Like he gives a, a decent like gospel message,
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you know, if you're not listening to close, like, yeah, you have to like really be on guard. So
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he gives a couple of things where like kind of nice, but then the further in you get, it starts
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to get really crazy to the point where he tells a woman before you come to Jesus, you need to do my
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three steps because you can't bring Jesus into this mess. And that's where it was like, we pause that
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and we were like, wait, what did he say? And I was so shocked because I was like, how did I not hear
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this stuff before? How did I not hear what level of, um, like teaching he was giving us that was
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just totally outside of scripture, totally stuff that I would have rejected growing up. I just didn't
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see it. I remember at one point listening, his, he had a very fascinating and honestly, like a really,
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um, successful approach. He would start, you know, he's speaking to people who, who want to follow
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Jesus. Most of them are, you know, earnest. So he would give a problem. Then he would present
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like one or two scriptures and say, here, we're going to discover how these solve that problem.
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And then he would lecture for 45, 50, 60, sometimes 70 minutes and totally leave those scriptures
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behind. So he's not teaching them. And then at the end, and, and Ginger talks a lot about this in
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her book too. She would, he would have the people vow to keep those scriptures.
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And a lot of it was based on stories. So he was such a good storyteller. He had, he would,
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he would come up with all of these, um, like stories that would grip you and you think, okay,
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this person's business was destroyed because they didn't realize somebody was selling alcohol
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at their business. And therefore the guy gets cancer and his family falls apart. And it's all
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because this business had a liquor license and the guy didn't know. So you just have like
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all of these teachings that are constantly, um, getting you, like it gets your, it plays
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with your emotions. So you feel like, oh no, that could happen to me.
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Well, that's like the superstition, like connecting one event to a consequence that is actually
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It is totally unrelated, but he would always find, he said like correlation and causation,
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these, these things play hand in hand. So he'd say you have to watch out, you know, at every
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turn. And it's interesting because then at the end of the stories, that is when he would
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have you make the vow to God to keep whatever teaching he had just made.
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And what did those vows entail? Was it just you speaking out loud?
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So he would say, now we're going to have everyone who wants to make this vow. You make
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this vow before God and I want you to raise your hand. And he said, oh, that's so good.
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All over the stadium. We see, we see hands all over the stadium. And it was kind of like,
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I remember going to the seminars that he would, he would have on video actually every year from 12.
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Once you turn 12, you're allowed to go. So we would drive two hours every day to Tulsa for a
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week. Um, and we would go to these seminars and I remember like sitting there and he would,
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whenever that would come up, I would be like, okay, I want to make this vow to some of them were
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like, just like, if you would have said, Hey, how about you just purpose to read your Bible for
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five minutes every day? Well, there's nothing wrong with that. I feel like as Christians,
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we should be reading our Bibles, but he would make you, he would have you make a vow to God.
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And then he would say, make a vow to pray for five minutes. And then he'd say,
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you need to keep this vow. Otherwise disaster is going to come to you. Like after you just made this
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vow. So he has like stadiums full of people and they're freaking out. And so it's not out of love for God
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that you'd want to do these things. He was very comfortable placing burdens on you that you
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couldn't carry and that you couldn't keep. Yeah. Which is exactly why Jesus came to relieve us of
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those burdens that we couldn't carry. So you weren't even getting the gospel and it's not even just like
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the fear of messing up that's motivating you. It's also kind of like this self-righteousness that
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if I do keep the vow, it's because I'm awesome. It's not because God kept me. It's because,
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wow, I'm so good at this. That's exactly it, Allie. It's interesting because there would be
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so many families that got into this and they would feel like, okay, we're doing really good. And on the
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outside, their families looked perfect. And they were the poster kids for ATI. If it was just a couple
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people, students, or if it was an entire family, they would become like at the conferences, they would
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be up on the stage, they would be presenting everything. And we were like, wow, look at them.
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If only we could keep the principles like they do. And so it does become performance-based.
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Yeah. And then tell me a little bit, as you're going through these courses,
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I know you said there were some things that you're like, oh, that's a little weird.
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But tell me about the red flags that you kind of felt like, okay, I got to talk to Ginger about this
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Yeah. I think it was his picking and choosing how to use the Bible. So he would go back to the
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blood laws and the old covenant and start applying those to marriages, starting to tell-
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Never married, never had kids telling you everything that you can do.
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Okay. And you're just so people know what we're talking about. Like you're talking about like the
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cleansing laws in the old Testament. You can't have sex during menstruation.
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Or after giving birth, you have to wait 40 days or you have to wait 30 days here. And I'm going,
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You don't understand what even the old covenant was pointing to.
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So I could give you a lot of examples. I think the biggest thing I realized,
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and this is what we started talking about early in our relationship, was he doesn't understand
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the new birth. Mr. Gothard did not understand regeneration. And even somebody asked me who was a leader
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in that group, a leader, turned to me at one point in conversation and said, Jeremy, you keep saying
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And I realized Mr. Gothard doesn't understand what conversion is. So he understands what keep these
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rules and your life will be better, which is Phariseeism. It's legalism.
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And so that was the biggest red flag. And then that would come up all over the place. So
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what was so cool though, is as I was talking about this or Ginger and I were going through it,
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I wouldn't share all of my concerns with her. I would be watching this and then we'd watch it
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together. And she's the one who's going, wait a second, that, what did he just say? That's a
00:23:24.580
problem. And that gave me comfort seeing Ginger, like Ginger got it. She understood. She,
00:23:29.540
she knew that Christianity is a relationship with a living God. It's not a set of rules you throw on
00:23:37.200
and then you're perfect. And I, she says she felt safe with me. I felt safe with her, even though
00:23:44.440
as I was realizing how problematic this theology was, I saw a young woman who loved God, loved other
00:23:50.960
people, wanted to live for him and follow him. And that gave me a safety to know, Hey, we can work
00:23:57.720
through this stuff as our relationship goes on, but I know who this woman is in her heart. Um, I
00:24:03.520
didn't have this fear that she was just doing this outward performance, um, because that's
00:24:07.800
terrifying. Cause you don't, if someone's just performing outwardly, you don't know who really
00:24:11.780
they are and, and what's actually going to come out. And so I felt, I felt safe with her.
00:24:27.720
I think why Bill Gothard or anyone who does the same thing that he did, why they're so enticing,
00:24:36.160
it's not just because they're dynamic, they're good storytellers and all of that, of course,
00:24:40.240
but also because there is, there is some truth to it. Like you apply these principles to your life,
00:24:45.800
your life probably will be better than if you're a drug addict and promiscuous. If you wait to have
00:24:50.960
sex until you get married, it's going to be better than being promiscuous before marriage.
00:24:55.400
If you, you know, don't get drunk, if you do all of these godly principles,
00:24:59.680
your life probably will avoid a lot of the disasters that it would fall into if you engage
00:25:05.140
in this kind of behavior. But it sounds like it was one, the legalism that if you vow to do these
00:25:10.620
things, then you will be righteous. It's not Jesus's righteousness that becomes yours. You still have
00:25:15.480
to earn it. And then also connecting those things to these superstitious, uncorrelated
00:25:20.080
punishments. It's like, did he not understand regeneration and renewal? Or did he just think,
00:25:27.600
well, that's not really helpful to what I want, which is to kind of maintain power or prominence
00:25:34.960
or whatever. Because if you keep people kind of subdued with fear, then you can continue to get
00:25:41.120
them to come to your conferences and buy your curriculum and things like that. So I don't know.
00:25:46.000
Yeah, I think it definitely was for kids in that system. They would be controlled by the fear and
00:25:51.880
kept there by the fear. And so like you said, yeah, your life could be better on the outside for a
00:25:57.260
while, but what's on the inside will come out. And so I think that's where he didn't realize that was
00:26:04.880
going to happen. I mean, he probably did. But the families getting into it did not think about that.
00:26:09.940
They thought, okay, the outward's okay with our kids. They're going to be fine. And all the while,
00:26:15.240
their hearts weren't changed. So yeah, the regeneration wasn't there. But I think Bill
00:26:18.340
Gothard, he was doing these things probably for his own gain.
00:26:22.260
Yeah. And I think the deceiver is also deceived. So I think there was a degree where, where Gothard
00:26:29.720
in his deception of others was deceived himself. Yeah. So where do you draw that line? I don't know.
00:26:36.560
Right. But it's, it's a scary mix of self-deception and then intentional deception of others to
00:26:42.060
manipulate and control. Yeah. So as y'all advanced in your relationship,
00:26:46.320
you got engaged and I'm sure some people saw the changes in you, which was really just
00:26:52.880
even better understanding the gospel. Maybe as, wow, Ginger's really changed. She's really abandoned
00:27:00.600
how we grew up and then y'all moved to a big city. And so, and your life started to look a little bit
00:27:05.960
different. Like, was there any of that from the people that you loved or even just your community of,
00:27:14.540
I'm sure that, um, I know some did think that maybe, you know, marrying Jeremy would mean me
00:27:22.280
leaving the gospel, leaving what I knew was true. Um, and then others, it was just, um, I think some of
00:27:30.980
those standards that I had held to, um, for so many years, like only wearing skirts. When I started
00:27:37.760
wearing pants, there were people who were very saddened and grieved by that. And it's understandable
00:27:43.700
because in that setting, when everything, your righteousness is a modesty standard, like, yeah,
00:27:52.620
you're going to freak out if Ginger starts wearing pants because that's so immodest and where's her
00:27:57.900
heart before God. So I can see how people in that setting would think that. Um, and then, yeah,
00:28:05.160
like moving to Los Angeles where we are now, it's interesting because people would say the same of
00:28:11.900
that. Like you're in such an evil city. There's so much sin there. How could you live there? But I think
00:28:17.860
there's a missing element of like realizing, okay, well, you can look beyond those things and see,
00:28:24.720
okay, are we still walking with God? Do our hearts desire to live holy lives before God,
00:28:29.800
to love the Lord. And, um, I, I can say that it's sad how many would just look on the outside
00:28:37.560
and totally miss the heart of where we are and where we're walking with the Lord. So yeah, we had,
00:28:45.180
we had a lot of interesting reactions. Yeah. And that goes back to something that you
00:28:50.180
said, uh, a little bit ago is that applying the principles or the rules of Bill Gothard couldn't
00:28:56.380
make you look good from the outside and allow other people and not even just other people,
00:29:02.260
but oneself to ignore what's going on on the inside. And your brother, Josh, I mean, he was
00:29:09.280
raised with all the same principles, the principles of purity, the principles of modesty, fidelity, all of
00:29:15.120
those things. And yet we know kind of what's happened or what's come out over the past few
00:29:20.520
months. So just like, tell us a little bit about that. What has that been like for you? Is that an
00:29:25.460
example of the legalism not really going into the heart or what is that? Yeah. You know, it's really
00:29:31.220
hard to like talk about that for one, but I see like with my brother, there has been the same,
00:29:39.760
it is the same heart of going to these standards, putting up all of these outward things to make
00:29:46.600
your heart look good before others. And I think that is really why I wrote this book was in that
00:29:54.160
time when my brother, um, was about to be arrested. I was looking at all of this and I was thinking,
00:30:03.100
man, the glory of God is just, it's going to be dragged through the dirt because people think this
00:30:08.820
is what is, you know, he's claimed to be a Christian and he had up all these outward things that made
00:30:14.420
him look good. But when everything falls apart and no one's saying anything, we have to speak up for
00:30:20.620
the glory of God. And so that's where I thought we want to make a distinction between like putting
00:30:26.680
on rules and what true, the heart of true Christianity is that we're not going to come to
00:30:31.280
God, um, with anything. Like we're not, we're not bringing our religion into this, like in, in the
00:30:37.660
outward standards of what Bill Gothard would say, put on all these standards. You're going to have
00:30:41.460
an amazing family. You're going to turn out well, this is Christianity. But the true heart of the
00:30:47.280
gospel is when we see that we are sinners in need of a savior, we repent of our sins and believe in
00:30:54.420
Christ that we will be saved. And that regeneration though is a transformation that happens when, um,
00:31:00.260
it comes from the inside out. It's something that God does. It's a work of God. And I think that was
00:31:05.120
missing in this theology. And so you thought, okay, if I just pray a prayer, I'm going to be fine.
00:31:10.800
And you saw so many of these families in the system where situations like my brothers were
00:31:19.460
happening over and over. And I knew many families who were like that. And it just, it's so sad because
00:31:26.500
you're promised this guarantee of success. You think everything's going to be okay, but in the end,
00:31:32.160
it is not going to be okay. Because if you're relying on your own works or feeling good about
00:31:38.300
yourself because you're going to church or any of those things, it will never stop your flesh. It
00:31:44.240
will never be able to keep you from sin. Only God can do that. Yeah. I can't imagine how difficult
00:31:51.540
that must've been to see your brother, a family member, um, be convicted of something that egregious.
00:32:00.000
And then on top of that, you've got people saying, not just this is the problem with this kind of
00:32:06.000
theology, or this is the problem with legalism or so-called purity culture, but this is the problem
00:32:11.420
with Christianity. Yeah. Christianity pushes this kind of thing. That's why he consumed this kind of
00:32:17.940
material. That's why he was accused of doing those things in the past. It's all because of
00:32:22.560
Christianity. And that's when you saw that, the conflation between what you agree was bad
00:32:28.220
legalistic theology and the conflation of the bad behavior of Josh with the gospel,
00:32:34.780
with Christianity, with scripture. That's when you were like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I need to draw some
00:32:38.680
lines of distinction here. Right. And I think one of those things was like within Bill Gothard's
00:32:44.580
setting, there's so much of that talk about purity, about keeping yourself pure and almost viewing,
00:32:50.920
like even talking about sex with your kids or like all of that at appropriate ages and like
00:32:57.780
about how your bodies are changing, that is totally pushed out. So there's not even a healthy view of
00:33:03.300
like, okay, marriage is a gift from God that's to be enjoyed within, um, within marriage or to be able
00:33:09.040
to enjoy this. But there's such a focus on pushing out all of that as almost like evil, even attraction.
00:33:17.120
There were so many focuses on like, okay, now we have to make these single service commitments.
00:33:23.300
Bill Gothard was big into that. He would push these single service commitments to God. Um,
00:33:28.140
and you would have 20 year olds making these commitments for 10 years. You'd have young kids
00:33:34.200
who were making it older people making it for 10 years. And it was like, what are we doing here?
00:33:38.540
Commitments to, he would, he would have them make a commitment to not get married for 10 years,
00:33:44.200
not get married for five years. So you can focus on the Lord without distraction. If you're young
00:33:48.620
and you're like 15, okay. Like if it's five years, 10 years, whatever, like that's okay. When you're,
00:33:55.500
when you are 30 and you're making single service commitments, there's a problem there. He wanted
00:33:59.220
them to abstain from, um, from thinking about another person they're attracted to. So that almost
00:34:06.400
was looked at as sin. Like if you have attraction, I would feel guilty if I was attracted to a young man
00:34:11.520
who was godly, who had good character, I would feel so guilty. And I would never talk to my sisters
00:34:16.880
about it because I was like, that's almost sinful. So it's it, you go to this purity culture and think
00:34:23.460
this is how I'm going to glorify God. And the problem with that is when nothing's talked about,
00:34:30.180
there's going to be curiosity there. Kids will get around anything that you put up for them. So
00:34:35.440
having natural discussions is healthy at appropriate times with your kids. And I think
00:34:40.920
that was totally missing from Bill Gothard's teaching and that whole setting. And so it's so
00:34:47.280
sad to see how many families, like their kids would just figure everything out for themselves.
00:34:52.420
Yeah. And I think he saw the more, the more, well, the approach was to suppress and we just suppress,
00:34:59.200
we push away. And it actually increased the desire and the longing, which is why I stepped into that
00:35:09.800
community and was caught off guard as well by the amount of times I was hearing cases of kind of gross
00:35:17.820
sexual perversion in that community saying, why is this happening? And the scriptures have answers.
00:35:25.280
I mean, Colossians 2 says, it looks good to say, do not taste, do not touch, do not handle,
00:35:30.580
but that has no power in stopping the flesh. The only answer is looking to Christ,
00:35:36.660
which is why even too, when, when these things came out in the news and everything was happening
00:35:43.380
sort of with her brother, Ginger and I made a statement very intentionally quoting Jesus to show
00:35:50.740
Jesus is the one most opposed to this behavior. He's the one who cares the most for children. He's the
00:35:57.840
one who cares the most for people. And he has given us a beautiful design for humanity. And that's a
00:36:04.200
distortion of it. Because to have that conflated with Christianity itself is sad. Because Christ is the
00:36:12.700
one who, who is the answer to those problems, not the cause.
00:36:18.000
And the answer for Josh or for anyone in rebellion is not either to, well, don't be a Christian anymore.
00:36:26.400
You just need to free yourself from these standards. Or, well, you just need to follow those rules
00:36:31.080
better. The answer is like the very thing that you pointed out that Bill Gothard and his teachings,
00:36:37.880
and a lot of people who profess to be Christians don't understand, which is regeneration. That's the only
00:36:42.540
hope for anyone. Yeah. Jesus transforms our heart to love him and to love others. And so if you look
00:36:51.240
at the fruit of the spirit, which is the result of regeneration, the first three mentioned in
00:36:57.300
scripture, love, joy, peace, and the list goes on, gentleness, patience, kindness, the fruit of
00:37:03.940
conversion is the solution to the human problem. But not putting on a bandaid on cancer,
00:37:11.220
nor embracing your cancer and saying, let me just love the cancer. If you've got a sin problem as
00:37:17.040
a person, you need Christ to transform you. And he was missing that. And so Ginger and I have talked
00:37:24.100
a lot about the pain from the families in that culture, in that system, who do run into deep
00:37:32.920
problems. There's pain because they keep going back to the same solution, but that's actually promoting
00:37:40.760
the problem. And so they need to go, they need to abandon Bill Gothard's proposed solution and they
00:37:47.800
need to go to the heart of the issue, which is a genuine relationship with Christ. And it's tough to
00:37:55.040
see those families walk through that and continue to go back to the same.
00:37:59.580
Because the thing is, it's the promise guarantees for success for your family. And so when they look
00:38:05.020
at that, they're like, well, what principle did I violate? So then they're just freaking out, really.
00:38:11.200
They're not trusting God at all. It's just like, okay, me, me, me, what did I do? Where did I mess up?
00:38:18.820
Yeah. I think there's probably also, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but a lack of
00:38:24.560
vulnerability and honesty about one's struggles or desires or whatever it is that does kind of
00:38:31.080
push people further into darkness and hiding. So rather than someone being comfortable with saying,
00:38:36.780
well, I'm being tempted to sin in this way and I don't want to, you would hide it maybe because
00:38:42.600
you don't even want to admit that you're tempted in any way. And that just kind of,
00:38:50.540
Yeah. It pushes people more into, more actually into embracing that temptation sometimes than
00:38:57.180
Yeah, for sure. I think that vulnerability and openness that my parents sought to talk to us
00:39:02.700
kids about our hearts, but I think you see even within that setting, the performance-based
00:39:08.860
thing. You want everything to look good on the outside. And so you're just trying to work to
00:39:14.440
keep that up until it all comes out. And I think there was that, there was a time, I remember that
00:39:20.420
seeing a difference, there was a time where a friend of Jair's had called him up and he was like,
00:39:27.000
Hey, can you, a pastor, can you, can you pray for me? I'm just having bad attitudes, you know,
00:39:32.500
with my grandkids or whatever. And there was, there was this, like, it just, it shocked me.
00:39:38.860
Because something like that, hearing it from a pastor, the humility of that and being vulnerable
00:39:45.240
with a friend, it's just so sweet to see that within the body of Christ, that's what we're
00:39:51.200
there for is, you know, we're able to confess our sins and, and pray for one another and help each
00:39:58.280
other in that community too, that we're blessed with within, within the body of Christ. It's a gift.
00:40:04.040
It's not something that we should feel like, okay, we're not going to throw our sin out to
00:40:08.600
like every person, you know, that we come across, but it's like, it is a sweet thing to see that we
00:40:14.400
don't have to keep up this front of like, we're all perfect. We're always going to be happy and
00:40:18.420
cheery and smile. Um, but we can be real and honest. Yeah. And just so, cause I know that this
00:40:25.480
is such a sensitive subject, like talking about not just Josh, but like child sex abuse in general,
00:40:30.660
like, yes, we're talking about the gospel and regeneration and forgiveness. But as you guys
00:40:35.380
said in your statement, like there is a place and a need for earthly justice. And like, we also as
00:40:42.860
Christians absolutely support that and understand that place. And also our hearts go out to all of
00:40:49.460
the people who are affected by this. Cause this is not like a victimless crime. So we don't need to
00:40:56.540
get into the details of that. We've talked about it. There's plenty out there, but just want to
00:41:00.640
make sure that that is totally, that's totally clear. And obviously this is not the first time
00:41:06.700
that the media has talked about your family. Um, there was also a recent, um, I don't know,
00:41:15.520
cyclone of news and negative coverage about your family. When it comes to Jessa, Jessa suffered
00:41:21.160
miscarriage. We talked about that on this podcast and somehow the media decided to construe that into
00:41:27.080
she actually had an abortion, which is just wild and absolutely just scientifically inaccurate. But
00:41:33.960
I also know hurtful for her. I mean, what is it like? What was that like? What's it like to see that
00:41:38.740
kind of untrue stuff about people that you love in the media? Yeah. It's interesting. I feel like
00:41:44.160
most of the time those things just run off my back because being in the public eye, since I was a kid,
00:41:50.660
you have to let things roll off your back and just not worry about it. But whenever I heard that about
00:41:56.760
Jess and I saw the articles, um, I, I have had very few times where my blood, I feel like my blood is
00:42:04.180
boiling. And that was one of those moments. And I was just like, how could they say that? And, and
00:42:09.920
trying to speak about her pain in such a way that is just hurtful and wrong. Um, and so my heart was
00:42:18.820
just like hurting for her because I know here she is walking through one of the most difficult things
00:42:26.800
and she chooses a couple months later to share that with everyone, um, the world and then to see
00:42:34.060
something so painful attacked and just, it was just so sad. So I know that being in the public eye,
00:42:42.340
you will, you will always have critics and you'll always have people say whatever about you. Um,
00:42:49.020
but that was one that I was just like, this is so wrong. It's so just beyond the pale. It was so hard
00:42:57.040
for me to believe that people would actually go out of their way to write something like that
00:43:00.800
in the midst of her pain. So obviously you love your family very much. You love your parents,
00:43:06.460
you love all of your siblings, but like, what has it been like since this book came out
00:43:12.220
and you've kind of talked about the dangers of some of those teachings? I mean, has that been
00:43:17.560
difficult navigating the, like navigating those conversations? Yeah. We sought to have conversations
00:43:24.900
with my family, um, about the book before we said anything publicly. And so I think some of them were
00:43:32.540
definitely, um, like, um, like it's still in those teachings and I knew that, and I knew it would be
00:43:39.340
difficult. Um, but at the same time, a lot of my siblings have been supportive and appreciative of
00:43:47.400
this book. And so I've been really grateful for those responses. Um, because I know regardless of what
00:43:55.620
anyone may think about it, I need to speak truth because I feel like it is so necessary when it comes down
00:44:02.460
to how you view God in the Bible, that's what matters the most. And so I have to speak it no
00:44:08.600
matter what the outcome. Yeah. Do you feel like it's provided you with some opportunities to have
00:44:14.960
those kinds of gospel centered conversations? Yeah. It's been really sweet to see how many
00:44:20.620
conversations I've been able to have around the book. And, um, like the book has opened up that door
00:44:25.840
for conversation. And, um, I know so many can really identify with different points of what I've
00:44:33.980
walked through. And so it's been, it's been encouraging. Yeah. Um, I'm sure it's been
00:44:39.580
different being a mom now and having a different location where you're raising your kids, totally
00:44:45.680
different from where you grew up in Arkansas and obviously different theology, different church. I mean,
00:44:51.000
how has that been for y'all? I mean, everyone kind of has that to some degree. You have some
00:44:55.700
differences from how you were raised versus how you raise your kids, but just in kind of learning
00:45:01.700
how to apply what you now understand about the gospel and motherhood, what does that look like?
00:45:06.920
It's kind of, it's kind of interesting. Like in those, those early years, I really had it all mapped
00:45:11.800
out how my kids were going to be, what I was going to do at the age of 14. I would look at other
00:45:16.180
families and be like, your kids over there rebelling. I know what's wrong with them. They don't know
00:45:19.960
these principles. So once I set all that aside, I did freak out a little bit because I was literally
00:45:25.880
like, babe, what are we going to do? I have no clue now because I am just having to, as I should
00:45:32.560
go to the word of God, pray through stuff together and try to make the best decision for our kids.
00:45:39.420
Because it's like, now I'm not saying that homeschool is our only option where I thought
00:45:44.540
I'm going to say here, I'm like, okay, we have so many great schooling options around us,
00:45:48.740
which I'm very grateful for. Or like even just how we're going to do life at home. And I want to
00:45:58.620
point them to Jesus. I don't want to point them to these standards. What are we going to do when
00:46:02.880
they get older? All of those things. It's a beautiful thing because it makes us rely on the
00:46:09.240
Lord all the more instead of feel like, okay, we're going to trust this man that he has the answers.
00:46:24.400
Do you ever still have moments where you feel like you kind of struggle between, hang on,
00:46:34.760
is this is what I'm doing right now? Is this obedience being motivated out of a love for God?
00:46:41.160
Or am I kind of reverting as we all do at different points in our faith to maybe
00:46:45.040
your pre-understanding of what it really means to be regenerated more of that kind of superstitious
00:46:53.040
Yeah, definitely. Every day reminding myself of the gospel, reminding myself of the truth of God's word.
00:46:58.940
I think because these teachings were so foundational for me, it has been something that I have to remind
00:47:05.980
myself of the work of Christ that is done on my behalf as a believer and not turning to like if I
00:47:13.260
had a bad attitude towards one of my kids or my husband, realizing, okay, there's forgiveness in
00:47:19.420
Christ. I need to ask forgiveness and then move on and let the grace of God cover that. Because within
00:47:26.800
the system of the Bill Gothard, it's so easy just to become so introspective and to become fearful.
00:47:32.720
Like, oh no, since I messed up, what's going to happen to me? Those feelings still come back and
00:47:37.760
I have to speak, I have to think truth, speak truth in my heart through God's word, realizing who I am
00:47:43.840
in Christ and asking for forgiveness and moving on. And that's definitely still something that every day
00:47:51.860
I have to work through. But I think to some extent we all have that, but maybe a little bit more
00:47:59.460
coming from a setting that was focused on the outward.
00:48:02.940
Yeah. And the freedom that you're talking about in your book and the title of your book is not,
00:48:07.460
like you mentioned, deconstruction a couple of times as we've been talking. It's not the freedom
00:48:11.640
to do whatever you want to. It's not the freedom to follow your own heart as the world defines freedom.
00:48:17.660
You're not talking about freedom from obedience, but actually freedom to obey. So it's not the
00:48:23.420
obedience itself necessarily that changes, but the place where it comes, which really actually
00:48:31.420
Yeah. That is the thing. It's not like you're throwing off all restraints to feel like you're
00:48:35.820
free, but true freedom is found in knowing Christ and loving him and obeying him, obedience through his
00:48:42.620
word. And it's such a beautiful thing. It is freeing to be living your life according to the Bible,
00:48:50.420
not according to a man's tradition or anything, but just knowing God and loving him.
00:48:56.680
Yeah. Actually, I read an Instagram post the other day that made me sad. It was someone who
00:49:01.340
is basically saying that they can live in a certain kind of sin and also follow Christ. And she actually
00:49:05.920
used the words, I'm so glad I discovered that I don't have to deny myself to follow Jesus. I'm like,
00:49:12.840
wow, you don't even realize. And so we've been talking about the dangers of legalism,
00:49:18.160
which is, I mean, gosh, Satan can use that. We saw that with the Pharisees. And then some people,
00:49:23.340
you know, you swing to the other direction and you actually end up without even realizing it,
00:49:27.840
like denying obedience to Christ altogether because you think to be a Christian means to have,
00:49:36.040
Right. Do whatever you want, follow the culture, do whatever the culture is doing.
00:49:40.140
And that is not the answer. So that's where it's all that we do as Christians,
00:49:45.460
it will be found in the word of God. So denying ourself, it says, deny yourself,
00:49:50.260
take up your cross and follow God. So that's where you see that that is the beauty of Christianity
00:49:57.400
though. It's not like, oh no, now I'm going to live this terrible life because I have to deny myself.
00:50:03.480
It's a beautiful thing to submit our lives to the word of God, to submit ourselves to a church
00:50:09.940
and to the beauty of being in a place where you have accountability. And there are so many of those
00:50:17.360
things that people would say are bad, but they're actually good. They're good gifts from God.
00:50:21.660
Yeah. Is there anything you would add to that, Jeremy?
00:50:24.480
No, I would just say, you know, the Lord made us and he made us with a beautiful design
00:50:29.280
and it's our sin that has rejected that design. So to submit to our maker is to submit to the,
00:50:36.460
his original plan for, for flourishing and for our enjoyment and satisfaction, which is why as
00:50:41.680
Christians, it's not a lack of freedom in relationship to God. It's finding true freedom
00:50:46.880
for the first time because we're reconnected with why we are here, why we were made and we have a
00:50:52.920
purpose. Yeah, definitely. What would just be your final encouragement, maybe for someone who
00:51:00.540
is in the midst of a kind of upbringing or just a kind of theology like that you were raised in? And
00:51:06.120
honestly, I'm sure there's a lot of fear in that because there is some comfort in saying, okay,
00:51:11.180
this is my, these are my rules. Like this is my security blanket because if I just follow this,
00:51:17.340
then I'm going to be okay. I don't know what it looks like to let those go.
00:51:21.740
So what if I do end up rebelling or whatever it is? Like, what does it look like to not have that
00:51:26.740
safety and security anymore? So what would be your final message to someone like that?
00:51:31.540
Yeah. I would say, I think that it's interesting. I remember that initial wrestling with that thought
00:51:39.740
because it's so easy when Bill Gothard had prescribed for me, everything was black and white.
00:51:45.920
It was, there was no gray area in the Christian life. And so he had it all prescribed for me. And I
00:51:50.780
thought that's, that seems easier. But when you realize like where your heart actually is in that
00:52:00.180
time is turmoil, there's no peace in that because you are working, you're trying to work to keep up
00:52:06.920
all these outward standards for yourself, thinking this is my safety. This is my peace. It's not found
00:52:12.780
in the word of God. It's not found in a relationship with him. And so you can only be on that treadmill so
00:52:20.880
long and you're going to be beat down again and again. And the promise guarantee for success within
00:52:27.440
Bill Gothard's principles or anybody else who's trying to teach you outside of the Bible is not
00:52:32.440
going to last. But when you can find true peace in, in coming to the word of God, examining those
00:52:38.920
things and realizing like, sometimes you're going to lose friendships. You're going to lose your
00:52:43.300
community. You're going to lose, um, what you thought your future was going to look like,
00:52:47.800
but trusting in God who is all knowing all good and realizing like, if I don't have anyone else right
00:52:55.140
now, but I have God, that's enough. That was, that was a place that I felt like I had to come to even
00:53:00.260
to be able to speak out against this because the community can be a hard, the hardest thing to get
00:53:05.280
past. Cause you feel like I'm losing everything now that safety, but it's a beautiful thing to
00:53:11.780
be able to come to the word of God and like, even be led by the spirit of God. And each person's life
00:53:16.620
can look so different in that time where it's like my, you know, my friend may send their kids to a
00:53:22.220
Christian school. I'm a homeschool. We can have these differences and we can trust that God is good
00:53:26.560
and he's going to work in their life in the right, in his timing. And we don't have to like
00:53:31.320
micromanage everything. There's peace in that. And there's a beauty in just trusting in Jesus and
00:53:36.600
not in a person. Yeah. And Psalm 23 tells us that the Lord is our shepherd. We shall not want. So
00:53:42.920
it's actually not the rules that are keeping us safe. It's the Lord that keeps us safe. And it's
00:53:48.500
not because we earned that safety or we had anything to do with it, but he gives it to us as a gift.
00:53:54.260
And there is so much freedom and peace in that. And that's where the obedience comes from.
00:53:58.660
You obey because you love so much and you're so thankful, not because, oh my gosh, I'm going to
00:54:04.680
be, I'm going to be punished. It's okay. No, it's fine. It's totally fine. I mean,
00:54:10.420
this is a huge part of your heart and your life and it goes somewhere really deep.
00:54:16.420
So yeah. Jeremy, is there anything else that you would tell someone who has had a similar background?
00:54:22.820
No, I've just, I've been really encouraged by Ginger's strength through this journey and her
00:54:30.040
commitment to not lose Jesus in the midst of the distortion of Christ and his words. There's a lot
00:54:38.420
of people who want to take the word of God and use it for their own gain. And that's confusing and
00:54:44.080
that's hurtful. Um, but to recognize really how Ginger, uh, concludes in her book that, that, uh,
00:54:51.380
Christ is a gracious savior. He's a kind friend and that he's worth holding onto, um, and, and going
00:54:59.840
directly to him, uh, despite the pain you've walked through, despite how people have maybe, um, used and
00:55:06.460
abused his words that Jesus Christ is true and he is good.
00:55:09.500
Yeah. And he's worth it. He's worth all the, whether it's misunderstandings or whether it's,
00:55:17.240
you know, strained in relationships or whatever it is, he's worth that. So thank you for sharing
00:55:23.200
your story because whether someone is on the side of, well, I'm just going to let all of this go,
00:55:28.620
or I've got to cling to these rules. There's a lot to benefit from your vulnerability. And I'm sure
00:55:36.720
that was really hard. I'm sure it's okay. No, it's fine. I mean, I'm sure it has been hard
00:55:42.100
to share a lot of this. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Thank you both so much for taking the time
00:55:49.860
to share. And I really do. I encourage people to go out and get her book. Most of you probably
00:55:53.840
already have. You probably did after, um, our original conversation. And again, go back and
00:55:58.620
listen to that. If you haven't, that'll kind of give you an understanding even more of where she's
00:56:02.960
coming from, but we'll put up the book and we'll put the link in the description of this episode and
00:56:07.680
you can check it out. It's an amazing book, just an incredible story, but also so many lessons about
00:56:12.740
the gospel and who God really is. Um, thank you guys so much for taking the time. Yeah. Thanks,
00:56:18.620
All right. Hope you loved that conversation as much as I did. Definitely go out and get Ginger's book.
00:56:26.640
All right. Let's announce the winners of the giveaway. Thank you guys so much for entering
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for everyone, the thousands of people who participated. I really appreciate it. Um,
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you use promo code. It depends. It's sometimes it's Allie. Sometimes it's Allie B. Use my promo
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companies to sponsor, but the people who won the free stuff for entering Jessica Jacques. I think
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that's how you pronounce your last name, Jessica, Julia Gerboni, and then Emily Casey. We have already
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messaged them. We've got their addresses. So we are sending the stuff their way for everyone
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else. Again, thank you for entering, but also remember we've got lots and lots of new merch.
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