Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 803 ｜ The Science Behind Screen Addiction ｜ Guest： Dr. Nicholas Kardaras ｜ Part 2

00:00:00.000 Dr. Nicholas Carderis is one of the country's foremost addiction and mental health experts.

00:00:06.100 He is a psychologist.

00:00:07.200 He's written two books on how screens are hurting our children's development.

00:00:13.000 And today he's going to talk about that.

00:00:14.760 He's going to talk about the science behind the damaging effects of screen time and social

00:00:20.460 media addiction, how the algorithms are pushing our kids towards unhealthy thinking patterns,

00:00:26.540 unhealthy lifestyles, inhibiting them from real healthy social interaction, inhibiting

00:00:33.520 actual debate and discussion in this country.

00:00:36.940 Wow.

00:00:37.180 This was a fascinating, fascinating conversation.

00:00:40.140 A lot of encouragement and tools for you parents, too, who are trying to develop your kids in

00:00:45.120 a healthy way away from screens.

00:00:48.000 And so you're absolutely going to learn a lot and love this conversation.

00:00:52.520 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:54.680 Go to GoodRanchers.com, use code Allie at checkout. 0.82

00:00:56.900 That's GoodRanchers.com, code Allie.

00:01:08.380 Dr. Carderis, thank you so much for taking the time to join us.

00:01:12.180 Can you first tell us who you are and what you do?

00:01:15.480 So I am a psychologist who specializes in a variety of expertise in addiction, mental health.

00:01:22.840 My wheelhouse has been, over the last 10 years, in digital media and how that's impacted people's

00:01:28.880 mental health.

00:01:29.920 I run treatment programs around the country that I've developed.

00:01:33.400 I've been a professor at Stony Brook Medicine for 10 years.

00:01:35.980 A clinician that has been, I think, one of the first, I was one of the first psychologists that began to sort of raise up the red flag that, or the red flag, a flag of awareness or that there's trouble in the waters of digital media in our society.

00:01:52.960 You wrote a book last year, it came out, Digital Madness, how social media is driving our mental health crisis.

00:02:01.520 I think a lot of people would probably just agree with that title, that social media isn't great for our brains, especially the adolescent brain.

00:02:09.140 But most people don't really have the words to describe how.

00:02:12.440 So when you've studied this, like, what is it exactly about social media and screen time that is kind of deteriorating, not just everyone's mental health, but specifically the mental health of teens, young people?

00:02:25.500 Right.

00:02:26.400 So I wrote a book before that called Glow Kids in 2016.

00:02:30.320 And the first realization was this is sort of a multi-phase process.

00:02:35.000 In Glow Kids, it was one of the pioneering books that looked at, can technology be habituating?

00:02:40.940 Can we get addicted to our devices?

00:02:43.840 And one of the narratives has been, as we've grown mad for our devices, are our devices driving us mad?

00:02:51.980 The research, and I included over 200 peer-reviewed studies that looked at how, yes, we can be addicted to devices.

00:02:58.660 They spike our dopamine in ways that are very habituating and classic addiction neurophysiology.

00:03:04.580 But addiction was just the price of admission.

00:03:07.680 What we started seeing then is, yeah, we were not only becoming addicted to our devices, and especially younger people were getting disproportionately impacted by that addiction.

00:03:18.680 So what did that addiction translate into?

00:03:21.560 And that's when we started seeing the mind-shaping effect.

00:03:25.280 So the neurophysiology of a young person gets compromised developmentally the more they're on screens.

00:03:30.620 We have clear fMRI research that shows that basically the prefrontal cortex, the executive functioning part of our brain, that part behind of our forehead, it begins to shrink in the same way that it does with chronic substance addiction.

00:03:45.700 So it compromises things like our impulsivity, our decision-making, and it creates a highly impulsive profile over a lifetime.

00:03:55.860 So we've created addicted people who can't manage without their devices.

00:04:03.060 But then now we're seeing that predictive algorithms that are very predatory attack vulnerability because the name of the game is engagement.

00:04:11.160 So if the predictive algorithm smells or senses that the user has body image issues or is politically predisposed a certain way or has other underlying vulnerabilities, it sends content that really exacerbates those vulnerabilities.

00:04:28.920 And this was shown by Frances Haugen, the Facebook whistleblower that came out about a year and a half ago, and she pulled the curtain back on Meta's own research with Instagram that showed that the predictive algorithms of Instagram were attacking essentially vulnerable adolescent females that were to a level that was increasing their suicidality.

00:04:49.480 So suicide rates for British girls were going up 12%, and for American teenage girls, they were going up 6%.

00:04:55.660 So it was making people more depressed, more suicidal, but then we started seeing psychiatric influencers who were really popular on sites like TikTok, who were getting billions of views.

00:05:07.400 The TikTok Tourette's phenomenon, dissociative identity disorder, the gender dysphoria issue, all these psychiatric issues were spreading via digital social contagion.

00:05:19.700 And so we've always had social contagions, and basically the definition of a social contagion is behavior that spreads via social means.

00:05:29.580 And so something like smoking is a social contagion.

00:05:32.700 If your friends smoke, you're likely to start smoking.

00:05:35.440 But now we started seeing the impact of influencers who were having millions of followers that were now shaping via social contagion means their devotees.

00:05:46.900 And we started seeing huge spikes in personality disorders, anxiety disorders, depression, suicide, all the toxic psych metrics were spiking.

00:05:56.740 Yes.

00:05:57.200 And there's so much in your answer that I want to unpack and ask questions about going back to what you said about the addiction to social media or the use of screens of young people hindering the development of the prefrontal cortex.

00:06:13.980 And that's the part of the brain, right, that's not developed fully until about age 25.

00:06:19.360 Is that correct?

00:06:20.920 Correct.

00:06:21.480 So you mentioned impulsivity because the prefrontal cortex is what allows us to kind of foresee the consequences of our actions, to make better decisions, right?

00:06:31.600 To have a little bit more discernment.

00:06:33.820 Go ahead.

00:06:34.300 Right.

00:06:34.720 Consequential thinking.

00:06:35.660 It's called if-then thinking.

00:06:36.660 So it allows us to consequentially think.

00:06:39.420 It allows us.

00:06:40.060 It's basically where our critical thinking and our decision-making lives.

00:06:44.240 It's a big part of who we are developmentally as human beings.

00:06:48.200 Right.

00:06:48.700 And so any parent especially can, even if they don't have the language for that, they understand that their toddler doesn't have impulse control.

00:06:55.620 Or even their teenager who just started driving.

00:06:58.840 There's a reason why insurance is high for these young people. 0.97

00:07:01.860 It's not just a lack of experience.

00:07:03.160 It's also a lack of ability to be able to see how their driving consequences or driving actions could have certain consequences.

00:07:10.040 So you're saying that screen usage is inhibiting the development of a part of a brain that is already, it's like already kind of competing.

00:07:24.420 It's already trying to, it's already trying to like take its proper place in a person's decision-making.

00:07:32.540 And this is making it even more difficult for young people to be able to mature in that way and then to make proper decisions.

00:07:40.260 Is that what you're arguing?

00:07:42.160 Yeah, it stunts the development of the prefrontal cortex.

00:07:45.060 And if you want to get a little bit more technical on it, there's really two ways that the brain imaging research shows that it does that.

00:07:51.360 As our prefrontal cortex develops into, you very accurately said, our mid-20s, there's something called the DGM, which is the dense gray matter.

00:07:59.700 And the dense gray matter is essentially the robustness of that part of the brain.

00:08:03.940 What we've seen in MRIs of chronic substance addicts and chronic screen addicts is the DGM tends to shrink.

00:08:12.900 So essentially, you're shrinking that part of your brain that you need to be full and rich and robust.

00:08:17.840 That's one aspect of the neurophysiological effect.

00:08:20.780 The other aspect that has to do with what's called the myelination or the myelene sheath of the brain.

00:08:25.840 And that's sort of the insulation cable of our neurons.

00:08:30.140 A strong myeline sheath allows our brains to communicate well, to function well.

00:08:36.740 So things like dementia and Alzheimer's are myeline sheath abnormalities.

00:08:42.380 So what we're seeing is that the myeline sheath with chronic substance addicts and chronic screen addicts begins to show, it's called microstructural abnormalities.

00:08:51.900 So it shrinks the gray matter of the prefrontal cortex and it attacks the myeline sheath in ways that really stunt development.

00:09:00.400 And that was, I think, the most shocking part.

00:09:02.740 You know, I'm a parent as well.

00:09:03.920 So, you know, I'm a psychologist.

00:09:05.800 I've taught neuropsychology, but I'm also a parent.

00:09:08.600 So I've got skin in the game as one of those.

00:09:12.640 And I think that's what shocked most people.

00:09:15.680 Most people thought, all right, screen time.

00:09:17.620 Little Johnny and Susie are getting kind of too habituated to their little phones.

00:09:21.480 But they weren't really, you know, once people started seeing in black and white the brain imaging research, that was the sort of Houston.

00:09:28.880 We have a problem moment for a lot of folks that started realizing this is more significant than I think most people, most of the adults in the room anticipated.

00:09:37.140 Because most, I think the problem was most of the adults, most of us of a certain age, conflated modern tech with television.

00:09:44.040 And most of us grew up on TV.

00:09:45.740 So we thought, all right, these are just smaller TV sets.

00:09:48.360 But they're not.

00:09:49.520 Because of the two fundamental differences are they're much more interactive.

00:09:53.920 Yeah.

00:09:54.800 Right.

00:09:55.180 So they're immersive and interactive in the ways that television ever was.

00:09:59.060 So thus they have a much more impactful effect on our brain.

00:10:07.140 Do you find that TV screen time has the same effect on a young child's mind as phone screen time?

00:10:23.960 Considering like the kind of animation and the kind of content that kids are now getting from television, it is a lot more immersive.

00:10:33.860 It's a lot more interactive.

00:10:34.920 It's a lot more entertaining.

00:10:35.820 It's a lot more addicting.

00:10:37.940 So do you find that the gray matter in the brain responds the same way when there is a child who is addicted to TV versus a child who is constantly given an iPad?

00:10:47.680 So the person who did all this ADHD and screen time research was Dr. Dimitri Christakis at the University of Washington.

00:10:53.880 He's also the editor of the JAMA, Journal of American Medical Association Pediatrics.

00:10:58.880 So he's a pretty well-respected researcher.

00:11:02.260 And he started doing research on television effects on ADHD back in the 90s.

00:11:06.600 And he's since done it with interactive screens like iPads and Chromebooks.

00:11:10.900 And back in the 90s, if you're so the key developmental windows for children with their attention is between the ages of two and six.

00:11:20.100 That's when their brain is really developing their ability to attend, to focus.

00:11:25.360 In the same way that, like, language is a developmental window, right?

00:11:29.340 We've seen that if kids aren't exposed to language during the key developmental window, they're going to become lifelong compromised with language.

00:11:36.120 We've seen that with, like, feral kids who have never been exposed to language.

00:11:39.500 They can never really get language because that part of their brain devoted to language never really got nurtured at that key time.

00:11:45.620 So it's the same thing with attention.

00:11:48.200 So two to six is that key window for attention.

00:11:51.220 And Dr. Christakis' research showed that for every hour of television, this is back in the 90s, you had a 10% higher rate of ADHD.

00:11:59.380 So if a three-year-old watched three hours of TV back in the 90s, they had a 30% higher rate of ADHD when they got older.

00:12:07.340 They did that same research with interactive modern tablets and screens.

00:12:11.960 And that effect was exponentially increased.

00:12:14.420 So the ADHD rates were spiking more significantly, which, by the way, explains our spiking rates of ADHD.

00:12:20.880 There's a reason why our kids are now being diagnosed to such a great degree.

00:12:26.340 And, you know, one of the counterarguments had been, well, we're just more sensitized to ADHD.

00:12:30.920 So we just happen to be diagnosing it more.

00:12:33.180 And I can tell you as a researcher and as a clinician who works with young people, we're not just diagnosing it more.

00:12:39.240 It's happening more.

00:12:40.380 You know, anybody, I think, with eyes can look around and see our kids are much more attentionally challenged.

00:12:47.880 They're bouncing out of their skins more.

00:12:49.540 If they're not constantly being entertained, they can't focus.

00:12:52.800 Yeah.

00:12:52.980 And look, put two and two together.

00:12:55.800 I think anybody with reason can see we've overstimulated kids to the point where they become stimulation dependent.

00:13:02.140 Yes.

00:13:02.560 Well, I think that that's true even in adults.

00:13:04.680 And if that's true in adults, someone who didn't grow up really with social media.

00:13:08.120 I mean, I had some like crude forms of it.

00:13:10.160 I was born in the early 90s.

00:13:11.760 And so we did have AIM at some point.

00:13:15.060 And then later we had texting.

00:13:16.920 But really think, and I think the Lord for this, like we didn't have Snapchat and Instagram and all of these algorithms trying to constantly vie for our attention.

00:13:26.240 I wasn't addicted to my phone every night before, you know, I went to bed.

00:13:29.520 I actually read books.

00:13:30.720 It might have been trashy teen fiction, but at least it was reading.

00:13:33.280 But I've even noticed, you know, in my own life, obviously the dawn of real social media, the kind that we have today was when I was about in college.

00:13:42.360 And so for the past 10 or so years, I have had social media and I've noticed in myself, I have a lower attention span.

00:13:49.280 I can only read for so long.

00:13:52.440 I can only do one thing for so long.

00:13:54.660 If I'm watching TV, I find myself also wanting to open up my computer or scroll on Instagram.

00:14:00.180 So if that is true for me, someone who really wasn't introduced to this kind of social media until my prefrontal cortex was at least almost fully developed, of course, that's going to have a huge effect on these kids who have yet to be developed, right?

00:14:16.600 Well, that's such a great point that you're making because, by the way, guilty as charged also.

00:14:20.340 And I'm a few months older than you are, a couple of decades older than you are.

00:14:23.580 So and it happens to me, too, right?

00:14:25.780 So I've noticed that my own attention wanders much more readily.

00:14:28.420 Nicholas Carr, who wrote the Pulitzer Prize nominated Nicholas Carr, who wrote The Shallows, he writes in the opening part of his book about he can't go more than two pages without his mind wandering and he's in his 40s.

00:14:40.820 So if it's happening so significantly to us with our fully developed brains, imagine what's happening to these developmentally vulnerable children and adolescents who are much more impacted by exactly what you just said.

00:14:53.740 Yeah. And do you find like if you were to look at the brain of a 16 year old and I don't know if this part matters, but maybe one that didn't grow up with constant screens, but maybe they were introduced to social media when they were 15, 16 years old.

00:15:08.120 You look at their how their brain reacts to that stimuli versus how like a four year old's brain reacts to the iPad.

00:15:15.380 Is it similar or is the development that that 16 year old has?

00:15:20.660 Does that does that help them at all?

00:15:24.700 Does that make sense or is it very similar just in all adolescents how their brain responds to screens?

00:15:30.120 The four year old is going to be more susceptible than the 16 year old.

00:15:34.880 That's why, you know, one of the biggest mantras that I keep repeating to folks is delay, delay, delay as parents, you know, as much as you can delay the exposure to the device because your kid is going to get a little bit more immunized the older they get.

00:15:50.020 The other part of that is not just neurophysiologically, right?

00:15:52.660 Not just will the prefrontal cortex be developing, right?

00:15:55.980 Because it just doesn't go from four year old to 25 year old.

00:15:59.020 It's kind of developing its armor and it's neurosynaptically growing, but a person's sense of identity and who they are is a little bit more fully developed.

00:16:09.860 So there's less, you know, what I like to call brain shaping, right?

00:16:13.380 Because a lot of the work and people that I've worked with have been I've worked, you know, I was an expert witness for a capital murder trial for a teenage kid in Florida who had been radicalized by ISIS and decapitated a 13 year old because of this brainwashing effect.

00:16:28.340 He was a YouTuber who couldn't stop watching YouTube and eventually went down these political rabbit holes where he went from being progressive liberal to white supremacist to six months later, ISIS started sending him recruitment videos and decapitation videos.

00:16:42.620 And this quote unquote, nice kid turned into this ISIS warrior and, and he didn't have a core sense of identity.

00:16:51.300 He didn't know who he was.

00:16:52.540 So all these shaping influences were much more impactful.

00:16:56.540 He had, he was basically a healthy kid, but he got brainwashed at 16.

00:17:01.300 You're more likely to get brainwashed at eight, 10, 12, but the older you get, the more we'd like to think that our sense of identity has developed more so we can, you know, I use a phrase that I think is apt here.

00:17:12.620 It's, it's our psychological immune system.

00:17:14.820 We have a more developed psychological immune system, the older we get.

00:17:18.160 So we're less vulnerable, hopefully, but that doesn't mean that the 25 year old is not going to quit their day job and join the biker gang. 0.61

00:17:24.660 You know, we can all get susceptible to cults and to weird things, no matter what age we are, but less so.

00:17:30.780 Yeah.

00:17:31.200 You know, something interesting that I found is actually like my parents' generation, it seems, and I've talked to a lot of, I'm a millennial, a lot of millennial friends who have also found this.

00:17:42.100 We won't hold that against you.

00:17:43.580 Go ahead.

00:17:43.960 Yes.

00:17:44.460 They are less, um, my parents seem to be like less believing that screens are super damaging to kids.

00:17:56.680 Like, I feel like I'm more cognizant of it.

00:17:58.680 Like, I'm more worried about my kids even holding my phone or, you know, accidentally scrolling or being on an iPad, whereas kind of the baby boomer generation, it seems they don't see the consequences of that quite as much, which I don't know.

00:18:12.480 Well, you might think it's the opposite because they grew up without technology.

00:18:15.160 They understand the benefits of that.

00:18:16.760 But I actually find that a lot of friends my age, like we're having to convince our parents, like, you know, please don't let them on screens and things like that.

00:18:24.840 Not that my parents are constantly, you know, putting my kids in front of screens, but they just don't seem to see the consequences as much as we do.

00:18:30.740 Have you found that?

00:18:31.600 Yeah, that's a great point that you make, because even though we'll, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, the whole boomer, I'm cusp, Gen X boomer.

00:18:40.420 Yes.

00:18:40.960 And, you know, my kids are, you know, six, I have twin boys who are 16, so I get the boomer comments a lot.

00:18:46.280 Yeah.

00:18:46.620 But, um, but you're absolutely right, because of what I think what I said earlier was, again, the older generation conflates modern screens with television.

00:18:54.900 And so, you know, the boomer thinks this is, you know, I watched I Love Lucy, or, you know, I was watching Starsky and Hutch as a, you know, as a 20 year old.

00:19:03.420 So we tend to think that this might be just television.

00:19:06.460 And so that's why we don't fully appreciate where the millennials get it more because you get it because, you know, the one fact that's interesting is when you look at mental health metrics by generational cohort, like things like depression,

00:19:19.880 the baby boomers have the lower rates of depression and the most face-to-face friends.

00:19:26.220 And you go down to Gen X and millennial and then Gen Z and the younger the cohort, the more connected the cohort, the more psychiatrically unwell they are.

00:19:35.160 So one in five millennials have zero friends.

00:19:38.940 You know, it's a pretty high number to have zero friends.

00:19:41.560 Yes.

00:19:41.960 And that wasn't what we were told because I remember the before times, like, kind of like you, I remember the before social media times.

00:19:48.400 And the promise of social media, Ali, as you'll remember, it was going to be connectivity.

00:19:53.320 It was going to be this amazing new tool for a social species.

00:19:57.100 So it was going to be like social media for a social species.

00:20:00.220 It was going to be like chocolate and peanut butter.

00:20:02.040 It was going to be this great mix.

00:20:03.520 And theoretically, we were supposed to be healthier because we'd have more friends, more connections.

00:20:08.380 And that's a good thing for human beings.

00:20:10.320 But what we found is that this was a counterfeit connection, that digital connection isn't the same as a face-to-face friendship.

00:20:17.280 And in fact, it robs us of face-to-face friendships because we're so sedentary, isolated, screen-staring that we're not really developing these meaningful face-to-face friendships, which really are what nurture our psychological immune system, our soul.

00:20:33.880 Dare I say that word?

00:20:35.120 Yes.

00:20:35.400 And so your generation kind of sees that more because you're living it.

00:20:40.160 You're seeing your depressed friends and your friends who can't leave the house and your friends who are, you know, getting substance taking more because they're depressed more.

00:20:49.400 Where maybe the boomers are kind of like a little bit under aware of the realities of some of the younger people.

00:20:56.320 Where I've seen it among kind of my age cohort for, and I'm thankful that I'm married, but my friends who are on dating apps right now,

00:21:19.160 they have the kinds of interactions with guys that I just, that, I mean, even 10 years ago or 10 or however many years ago it was that I was dating.

00:21:30.720 Yes, it was digital in that you would text or you would maybe talk on the phone or something like that.

00:21:35.980 But now it seems like with the rise of dating apps, there is even a higher acceptance of what's typically referred to as ghosting or basically interacting with someone on an app,

00:21:47.300 even saying that you're going to go on a date and then just standing that person up or not responding.

00:21:52.720 And it does seem like our reliance on social media, on dating apps for connection has rather than helped us connect with people,

00:22:00.400 it's actually inhibited our ability to connect with people on a real level.

00:22:04.880 And it seems like it's made people a lot more insecure, a lot more scared to actually interact with people in person because they no longer have,

00:22:14.040 I don't know, the skill to be able to do so. It does take a certain level of courage.

00:22:19.060 Well, our interpersonal social skills have atrophied because we haven't used them, right?

00:22:23.340 So like you said, the courage that it takes to walk up to, you know, to ask somebody out on the date, you know, that was a skill, right?

00:22:30.220 It was a muscle that you had to develop.

00:22:31.680 And if now everyone is essentially hiding behind the screen, you don't develop those skill sets.

00:22:37.920 It's interesting, gets even worse when you talk about sort of dating and relationships with adolescents.

00:22:42.660 Now, when you start talking about things like porn and, you know, kids that, you know, there are 12 and 13 year olds that have seen hardcore porn that, you know, earlier generations,

00:22:53.840 you know, back in the Playboy magazine days where you had isolated imagery and you weren't desensitized to certain imagery.

00:23:04.920 So, or certain, not imagery, but even sexual kind of exposure.

00:23:08.060 And so there's a new phenomenon over the last 10 years called adolescent erectile dysfunction.

00:23:13.180 This is a thing that pediatricians talk about.

00:23:16.600 I was at a conference where this was, you know, the topic.

00:23:19.760 We'd never seen that before.

00:23:21.180 You didn't have a thing like adolescent ED because now what we're seeing is teenagers have been so visually overly exposed to imagery that, you know,

00:23:30.780 good luck going on the date now with the prom queen or with anybody, because now you have these idealized or like overly, well, you know,

00:23:40.140 you've seen things that don't really relate, translate into the real world or don't translate into you having a healthy functional.

00:23:47.040 And we have things like now misogynistic imagery and sort of violence and all those things and desensitization to all that.

00:23:56.500 Yeah. Well, there was a trend of, of young girls, like, you know, I don't know, 13, 14 years old on TikTok.

00:24:03.880 I don't remember. It was called some hashtag or some viral thing that they were all talking about in these separate videos about how they like to be choked or that their first sexual interaction was a violent sexual interaction.

00:24:16.800 Look, that doesn't just come out of nowhere. I mean, that's, they're being presented with that.

00:24:21.400 They're being told that that's what it takes to be attractive. That's what it takes to be sexy. 0.78

00:24:24.820 Or that's just what sex is. You have to be okay with that in order to be acceptable or attractive to a guy or whatever.

00:24:31.060 And you're right. These kids, they're being introduced in some cases to pornography at nine years old.

00:24:36.800 And of course, that's going to affect your sexuality. That's going to affect your self image. 0.97

00:24:41.120 It's also going to affect how you relate to other people if you primarily view them as objects rather than people with, as you said, souls.

00:24:47.880 There's so many consequences to social media that I think we don't see.

00:24:53.300 And what you said also is such a good point, just how pornography used to be different.

00:24:57.780 Like you used to have to, like you saw on the side of the highway and maybe the middle of nowhere, those very smutty, dark, like XXX, you know, buildings.

00:25:08.700 And you would pass by them and be like, oh, I wonder who would ever step foot in somewhere like that.

00:25:12.980 That's so embarrassing. Like there was a proper stigma around that kind of thing.

00:25:16.940 You had to go out of your way to hunt for the kind of sick stuff that now is readily available on TikTok.

00:25:22.980 There's no stigma. It's all in secret.

00:25:26.360 And a kid can, you know, go down the rabbit hole that you described alone in his bedroom.

00:25:30.960 And his parents might not even know.

00:25:33.680 And adults too, adult relationships.

00:25:35.620 I've worked with a lot of couples who, you know, and now because of the easy access and ubiquity, like you said, there's plenty of husbands out there who are porn addicted and destroying their marriages.

00:25:45.940 And it's just part of that thing.

00:25:50.460 You know, I think the larger cloud of social media, the one thing that I talk about in my most recent book is I really, you know, because now we start talking about AI and predictive algorithms.

00:26:00.200 And this very intentional attack on our, again, psychological vulnerabilities.

00:26:06.100 I've really grown to, I've grown to understand social media as almost a sentient living organism driven by predictive AI controlled algorithms that feed off of our most lizard brain emotional extremism.

00:26:23.940 And so it, it'll, because emotional reactivity feeds engagement, right?

00:26:28.640 If you tickle that part of my, my being that, that gets an emotional response, that's going to increase engagement.

00:26:34.360 So the social media is acting like a heat seeking missile that, that attacks emotional reactivity, whether it's political, whether it's psychiatric, whether it's whatever the content is that can get a rise out of us.

00:26:47.400 Then we feed the beast attacks us.

00:26:50.580 Then we feed the social media organism.

00:26:53.360 Our lizard brain feeds it. 0.68

00:26:54.960 Then it feeds us back in what's called an extremification loop.

00:26:57.940 And so round and round it goes and it creates this polarity chasm where like if I'm left leaning or if I'm right leaning, it's going to amplify those propensities because it's going to feed me more and more increasing content in either direction.

00:27:10.680 Because again, reaction, emotional reaction is the name of the game.

00:27:14.300 You're not going to get nuanced, well thought out, reasoned content because that doesn't, that doesn't raise the thermostat of my emotional reaction.

00:27:23.460 And so social media thrives off of this hyper emotionality.

00:27:28.060 And so what we're seeing, cause I'm treating 17 to 30 year olds in these treatment programs around my one program in Austin, Texas, in particular, we treat tech addiction type of issues and social media issues.

00:27:41.220 You're seeing young people who are much more highly emotionally reactive, who can only see things in black and white, who have a really hard time seeing nuance and discerning things.

00:27:53.080 And so they're, they're essentially like hardwired, emotionally reactive nuclear bombs there.

00:27:59.000 They have meltdowns and they're, they're collapsing and they need the safe spaces and all these stereotypical things we've read about.

00:28:04.660 So there's this fragility that we've now baked into young people and I'm convinced it's a social media driven fragility.

00:28:12.200 Yes.

00:28:12.740 You know, that is so fascinating because of course I've seen that and I've never attributed that to kind of what social media causes that black and white thinking. 0.63

00:28:22.760 I mean, I'm sure there are a variety of factors.

00:28:24.920 I think a lot of kids are learning to think this way also in their college classroom, but it probably is already baked in at that point because of what social media promotes.

00:28:33.840 But I've noticed that in my interactions, not with all students on college campuses or all the, you know, young people that maybe like message me things.

00:28:42.100 But if you do try to discuss with them, like a very maybe complex topic, like any of the culture war issues, whether it's abortion or whether it's gender and try to just move them past the talking points, like move them past the maxims that really don't make any sense.

00:28:59.660 Move them past kind of the circular reasoning that they're regurgitating.

00:29:02.880 Their response is anger and frustration and name calling rather than saying, okay, well, this is how I think about it.

00:29:10.640 It's almost like they are completely incapable in some cases of formulating an original thought, a nuanced thought and actually taking what you say and then responding to it in a way that is thoughtful.

00:29:24.940 I find that it's almost impossible for a lot of young people to do that at all.

00:29:29.140 And I never thought about it being attributed to social media.

00:29:33.080 Well, that's, well, that's exactly it.

00:29:34.260 So, so, so this hyperfragility, like you said, talk about any, any hot topic issue, intersectionality, whatever that may be.

00:29:42.700 And Jonathan Haidt, I think, talks about this well as well.

00:29:45.660 And he wrote his book, The Coddling of the American Mind.

00:29:47.720 He's the NYU professor and he's created the Heterodoxy Academy.

00:29:50.840 So, back in the before times, again, I'm an old timer and, you know, back when I was at university, you can talk to people with dissenting opinions and have really, you know, informed, interesting conversations.

00:30:03.580 And nobody collapsed on the floor, sucking their thumb or was in tears or was raging at you.

00:30:09.120 Right.

00:30:09.320 You would say, okay, what about this point?

00:30:11.200 What about that point?

00:30:11.980 And then you'd go and get lunch together.

00:30:13.460 Um, so now you're having this, this, and again, it looks very much this, a particular personality disorder called borderline personality disorder.

00:30:22.140 And then digital madness.

00:30:23.240 I think what I wrote was that I think we have a societal diagnosis of BPD, uh, where, because the symptoms of BPD are black and white thinking, um, very emotional reactivity, um, not clear sense of identity.

00:30:38.060 And, and, and it looks like the societal diagnosis is that, and, and if you look at some of the complex things that I mentioned, social media does.

00:30:46.280 And so Jonathan Haidt talked about that.

00:30:49.260 He began to see the safe space trigger warning fragility at about 2010, uh, around the advent of iPhone, social media, uh, you know, our, our deeper immersion into technology.

00:31:01.660 And that's when we started pathologizing language and started saying language was dangerous and we needed to protect ourself from this harm.

00:31:09.960 And that's when university administrators started saying language is no longer free speech.

00:31:15.460 Language is now harmful.

00:31:17.040 And, and, and I think we did such a disservice to university students.

00:31:20.960 I was a professor for 10 years and I saw it each year, uh, each, I taught at a graduate school.

00:31:27.180 I mean, these were graduate students that you couldn't, I mean, they would have breakdowns if, uh, you know, uh, you said a wrong word and, and, and it was new.

00:31:38.020 This wasn't something that we had seen.

00:31:39.440 So people like Jonathan Haidt and myself were, were, I'm, I'm attributing it to this new landscape that we've created.

00:31:46.120 That is really just created this fragility.

00:31:49.020 And then when they get out of college, they can't live life on life's terms.

00:31:52.420 They wind up in places like my treatment program because now they're depressed, isolated, wanting to commit suicide, uh, in front of a screen for 14 hours a day, escaping, you know, numbing themselves through a variety of digital escapism and, or self-medicating through other substances as well.

00:32:09.160 Because if you're highly impulsive, uh, because of the way, excuse me, if you grew up on this, you're going to be, um, not well in a variety of ways and just not able to function in the world.

00:32:19.320 And that's what we're seeing. We're seeing Gen Z is having a really hard time functioning. 1.00

00:32:36.180 It seems like that too. And a lot of parents, you know, I've, I've, I've read a lot of testimonies from parents who will say, you know, my child was, um, you know, uh, a normal girl, a normal guy.

00:32:47.760 And then they went through these hard adolescent years, which we all did by the way, but they started spending more time on their phone.

00:32:55.020 And maybe this parent was a little naive and said, I didn't really know what they were doing on their phone, but I thought, you know, it's fine.

00:33:01.260 Or maybe even there were a parent who said, I thought I was checking their social media apps.

00:33:04.940 And then one day over time, this person, this young person, teenager seems to have developed different kinds of mental issues, seems very depressed, very anxious.

00:33:16.700 This is something that we see a lot with a rapid onset so-called gender dysphoria, especially among girls.

00:33:23.520 And these parents are saying, what the heck, like you were just a normal girl, liked girl things.

00:33:28.060 And all of a sudden you're wanting these hormone treatments and things like that.

00:33:31.800 I mean, there is a whole world, I think that young people can get sucked into just depending on where the algorithm takes them that can completely kind of transform who they are as a person.

00:33:43.320 I think we as parents like to think that that's not possible, that we've laid a good enough foundation.

00:33:48.120 But I think we underestimate just how formative those teenage years are and how susceptible these young people are to a completely new change in identity that is brought to them by social media.

00:33:59.720 Well, that's exactly right.

00:34:01.400 I mean, when, you know, it used to be like the cafeteria in the high school used to be, you could see the different clicks and different identities, right?

00:34:07.600 There were the jocks and, you know, all the different groups.

00:34:11.580 And so every teenager is going through this sort of a search for identity.

00:34:15.300 Who am I?

00:34:15.960 And it's been the rite of passage historically forever.

00:34:18.920 But the way that social media has now changed that, and you're exactly right with things like gender dysphoria. 0.94

00:34:25.140 I mean, we've been gaslighted as a society.

00:34:29.260 Gender dysphoria is a real thing.

00:34:31.260 I'm a clinician.

00:34:32.000 I've worked with genuine gender dysphoria.

00:34:34.600 But it's so, the real article is so extremely rare within the society.

00:34:39.620 We've seen a 4,000% spike in late onset gender dysphoria female to male.

00:34:45.960 So, that's not explainable by any, there's no traditional explanation for that other than the social contagion effect.

00:34:54.680 And so, you have vulnerable teens looking for identity who now fall down whatever rabbit hole that it may be.

00:35:01.240 So, you may now, and let's face it, we're also looking for community in the sense of belonging.

00:35:05.600 And so, you know, I remember we had a client at our clinic who, she was depressed because all her friends went off to college and she didn't.

00:35:13.380 And so, she was going through what we would call moderate depression, not even severe clinical depression.

00:35:17.760 But she was feeling alone and empty and a little bit rudderless.

00:35:21.560 And she just fell down a BPD rabbit hole, a borderline personality disorder rabbit hole.

00:35:26.440 And she started identifying with this group.

00:35:28.740 And a lot of BPD women tend to be very histrionic and over the top. 1.00

00:35:33.820 And so, their videos online, their social media tends to be really popular because it's performative and it's entertaining, as is something like dissociative identity disorder, which we used to call multiple personality disorder.

00:35:47.840 So, now there's influencers online who have DID, who have a hundred alters.

00:35:53.720 Now, again, I've worked with the real deal dissociative identity disorder.

00:35:57.760 You know, what we used to see in the movies, Sybil and Three Faces of Eve.

00:36:02.880 Real dissociative identity disorder, sexual trauma in childhood.

00:36:07.680 You create a sort of alter identity to complementalize the trauma because you can't really live day to day without trauma.

00:36:14.240 But it was very rare and typically you had a handful of alter identities.

00:36:18.920 Now, you have these influencers who have a hundred identities across the LGBTQI spectrum.

00:36:24.720 And they're really popular because they're very performative.

00:36:27.600 And people tune in, young people tune in to watch what's called switching.

00:36:32.040 So, when, and they call themselves a system.

00:36:35.380 So, system Susie is now going to go from 28-year-old white female to 45-year-old black male. 1.00

00:36:42.880 And that switching is very entertaining because it's like this dramatic performance.

00:36:48.880 So, a lot of this is performance art.

00:36:50.420 A lot of it is attracting people.

00:36:53.480 And now they start sort of emulating these psychiatric symptoms with the late onset gender dysphoria, which I'm calling now in many cases pseudo-gender dysphoria.

00:37:03.260 And the proof in the clinical pudding, which I want to, I think it's important that I hammer this point home.

00:37:07.960 I treat these issues.

00:37:09.520 And in my clinic in Austin, we've had people that have come in with gender dysphoria diagnoses and borderline personality disorder diagnoses.

00:37:17.040 And in my treatment program, it's two months residential and there's no technology.

00:37:22.340 There's no phone, social media.

00:37:25.320 When they're away from those influences, a healthy number of those people by the end of, because we do a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy and we do a lot of dialectical behavioral therapy, which is the type of therapy you're supposed to do if you have borderline personality disorder.

00:37:39.900 By the end of two months, they're no longer, the gender dysphoria has gone away.

00:37:45.360 For many of, not all of them, but for many of them, you see that's gone away.

00:37:48.900 You see the borderline personality disorder is not there anymore.

00:37:52.160 That shouldn't be because borderline personality disorder, if you have the real thing, it doesn't get cured in two months.

00:37:57.700 Gender dysphoria doesn't get cured in two months. 1.00

00:38:00.520 And so, if something goes away after you're off of social media for a few weeks, that means that you didn't really have the disorder to begin with.

00:38:07.220 Yeah.

00:38:07.880 So, that's what I'm seeing.

00:38:09.540 I'm seeing that a lot of these kids are just sort of consciously or unconsciously mimicking these behaviors or these disorders because they're now aspirational.

00:38:20.560 It's cool to be trans now.

00:38:22.480 There's a whole host of social pressures to go down that path.

00:38:27.420 Yeah.

00:38:27.740 And like you said, it's a loss of identity.

00:38:30.320 And it's a loss of community, too.

00:38:32.280 These people think that they're finding real communities through the, you know, BPD community or the trans community or whatever it is.

00:38:40.740 And so, you're getting affirmation.

00:38:42.340 There's also, I think, I speak as a non-psychologist, but I think there's a part of the brain that also, I mean, that likes affirmation.

00:38:51.100 And it seems like something is released when you get affirmed, when you're told, wow, you're incredible, you're so brave for posting this.

00:38:58.900 Look at you being a part of the destigmatization of, you know, gendered support, whatever it is. 0.94

00:39:04.340 And so, it's not even just like the mimicking that I think goes on.

00:39:08.440 It's also the affirmation of a new identity, a sense of belonging and purpose that these people become addicted to and attached to, which is why I think it's so hard for them to release it and it becomes so real in their mind.

00:39:21.180 That's it.

00:39:21.640 That's beautifully said.

00:39:23.100 You know, I think we're all looking for a team to belong to, right?

00:39:26.520 Yeah.

00:39:26.660 Nobody wants to not be picked for a team.

00:39:28.300 And that goes back to evolutionarily, we needed, you know, the sociologists use a term, the tribe survived.

00:39:35.640 It's baked into our psychological DNA to need community and connection because we had strength in numbers evolutionarily.

00:39:42.440 We were not the strongest or the fastest species.

00:39:46.120 And to survive in prehistoric times, we needed a community.

00:39:49.580 And so, there was strength in that community.

00:39:51.220 And so, that's been baked into who we are.

00:39:52.920 So, now, when you're looking for community and you're isolated in front of a screen, you don't have genuine community and you have potential pathways or rabbit holes that you can fall into.

00:40:03.320 It's exactly what you said.

00:40:04.520 It's kids and young people who are looking for a team to join.

00:40:08.760 You know, and 25 years ago, these were young people that might have been joining a cult or finding a genuine, more meaningful community, whether it was faith-based or, you know, a sports team.

00:40:20.440 You know, where I live locally, they couldn't feel the foot, the high school couldn't feel the football team last year because there weren't enough kids, young teenage boys willing to put in the effort because gaming is easier.

00:40:34.860 It takes effort to try out for a football team and go to practice every day.

00:40:38.600 It takes effort to date, like you mentioned before.

00:40:41.220 It's changed things so dramatically in ways that are not very good.

00:40:46.580 Yeah, you know, there's a lot that I want to respond to, which you said.

00:40:50.740 We only have a couple more minutes, but I spoke at a university the other day in California, and there were a group of protesters outside who, and I didn't engage with them, but there were people, you know, that could have come to the event, that we did an entire Q&A.

00:41:07.500 And we had a couple people from the other side of my position who came in and asked me questions, although it was very much a, okay, you're not even hearing or responding to anything that I'm actually saying.

00:41:18.800 You're just saying things that I've heard a million times on social media.

00:41:21.180 But the crowd outside who was yelling at me, calling me a coward for not coming up to them outside and, you know, I don't know, hearing their chants or something, I'm thinking, you know, why didn't they come to the event?

00:41:33.600 The event was open.

00:41:34.900 We could have had an interaction, but I'm thinking it takes more effort.

00:41:38.260 It takes a lot more effort, a lot more energy, a lot more courage to actually face someone that you disagree with, have a conversation with them. 1.00

00:41:46.480 Of course, it's easier to stand outside and say your stupid chants. 0.99

00:41:49.460 Like, there's no effort, there's all the virtue points in the world that comes with something like that. 1.00

00:41:54.340 But it just takes too much effort to have the difficult conversations that we need to have as a functional society.

00:42:01.640 So I guess my question to you is, because I don't think that we have even seen fully these chickens come home to roost.

00:42:08.400 I mean, like only now are we starting to see what it looks like when a young child has been on an iPhone basically since toddlerhood and is now growing into an adult.

00:42:18.120 I mean, we've kind of touched on these things, but if you were to like quickly summarize, like, what's the consequence of this?

00:42:24.240 What is the what's the societal consequence or even the individual consequence of our kids having their main form of reality being on their phones?

00:42:32.720 Yeah. Reality blurred kids who can't function or like you said, you know, talk about those college kids in California.

00:42:39.320 Think about that. They don't even have the ability to have a rational discourse with you. Right.

00:42:44.620 They have to be their lizard brain worst. Right. 0.99

00:42:46.720 They have to just spew venom because that's all they're able to do. 1.00

00:42:50.120 I think that's all they've been primed to do at this point.

00:42:52.140 So the reality is that we're, you know, we're going to be a society gone mad.

00:42:56.240 You know, look at I look at the Navy promotional video where you have a drag queen. 0.95

00:43:02.480 That's that's right. That's the upside down part of the society.

00:43:05.600 I never thought that we'd be at a place where, you know, up would be down.

00:43:09.780 You there'd be no such thing as a woman. 1.00

00:43:11.740 You know, you speak so powerfully about these issues.

00:43:14.080 You know, we need warriors in this cause and we need the adults in the room to speak up and to say, speak truth and the rest be damned.

00:43:23.080 I'm at a point in my career, you know, where I don't really care what I'm secure in what I do.

00:43:28.860 And I feel it's my moral and ethical obligation to speak truth and to say the emperor has no clothes.

00:43:34.920 I'm not going to use pronouns or say because once you give into the little. 0.60

00:43:40.520 Yes. You know, everybody in the university I was at has to do the pronoun signatures and I'm not willing to do that because it's absurd.

00:43:47.500 And right. And so I am seeing grassroots pushback.

00:43:51.560 There are young people. I'm sure you've seen them on campus.

00:43:53.560 They're young people who are there's a grassroots movement of an awakening of saying this is absurd.

00:43:59.660 And hopefully that that grows, because if the other side keeps this trajectory going, we're going to sort of implode as a society.

00:44:08.880 This is sort of the end times of Rome.

00:44:23.660 What is your encouragement device to two groups of parents?

00:44:28.900 We've got a lot of moms that listen to this podcast. 1.00

00:44:30.980 Most of them are probably in my in my age.

00:44:34.180 I've got just little kids, but then you've got some that are teenagers or their kids are teenagers.

00:44:39.620 And that group is thinking, well, I can't I can't stop my kids from being on social media at this point.

00:44:46.000 You've got two sons, you said, who are 16 years old.

00:44:48.680 And then there are also like the moms of kids my age that you're like, oh, my gosh, but like the screen helps me cook dinner or whatever it is.

00:44:56.500 So what's your like encouragement and advice, hard truth to parents when it comes to how they treat screen time, social media, all of that with their kids?

00:45:05.300 What should we be doing?

00:45:06.240 I mean, for the younger for the younger moms, for the younger kids, it's delay, delay, delay.

00:45:11.340 The older your child before they get a portable device, the better.

00:45:15.000 Right.

00:45:15.220 For the reasons we said earlier, because it'll give them a better chance to develop their own sense of identity and their prefrontal cortex development.

00:45:22.660 For the ones who have teenagers already, it's not too late to to really give countervailing forces, sports, music, clubs, community things to get your kid engaged as much as possible, because the more countervailing forces you have in the young person's life, the less the gravitational pull of the screen is the kid who doesn't have a sense of purpose, a sense of meaning.

00:45:45.960 That's the kid that's going to get more lost in some of these things.

00:45:49.240 So it's basically being a proactive parent, not a helicopter parent, because I think the helicopter I've worked with a lot of tech addicts who whose parents were overly had their their their their boot on their necks and the kids were escaping sort of hovering parents.

00:46:04.860 So, you know, it's a kind of a fine line to be a proactive parent without being a helicopter or a bulldozer parent.

00:46:11.360 You know, one of the most successful parents is a good friend of mine who's a professor also had these wonderful kids grow up.

00:46:18.340 And I said, what was your secret?

00:46:19.600 And he said, well, benign neglect, because I think sometimes we as the parents are uncomfortable with our kids finding their own path.

00:46:28.160 Right. So there's a fine line with let me give you some support without doing everything for you, because the more I bubble wrap you, the more I'm going to make you not I'm not going to build your psychological immune system.

00:46:39.000 But I do need to make sure I'm trying to point you in the right direction.

00:46:42.540 But I can't walk for you. I can't fill out your college application for you.

00:46:47.760 So, yeah, but these are challenging times, right?

00:46:50.420 We're all trying to sort of figure out our way forward.

00:46:52.240 But that would be my best advice to really be careful to for the little ones, especially for the little ones, especially don't have any devices till they're at least 12 or 13.

00:47:03.780 Yes. And, you know, I mean, not to keep going, but I've just noticed that with my kids that when you give them the opportunity, even if they're like, no, I want to watch, you know, whatever it is, cartoons, which my kids don't have any like devices or anything.

00:47:17.240 But even just TV, like if you just kind of get through that maybe tantrum or that frustration that they have and redirect their attention, they're still at the age where they will learn.

00:47:29.820 They do learn how to dedicate their attention to something else besides the screen.

00:47:35.640 They can do it like their minds, I think, are still elastic enough to be kind of retaught.

00:47:40.860 If I can add one thing to that, you know, all the research shows reading, right?

00:47:49.200 If you can make your kid a lover of reading, this research that shows, you know, reading competency at age seven and love of reading at age 15 are the best predictors of lifelong success.

00:47:59.480 Yes, I believe that.

00:48:00.360 If you can and but then there's competing research that shows kids who are on screens are three times less likely to like reading because let's face it, reading is it makes reading boring, right?

00:48:11.820 If you're playing hyper immersive video game, this and digital world that good luck reading war and peace.

00:48:17.980 So carving out time to read with your child if they're young and giving giving them wonderful books when they're in middle school and still that love of reading.

00:48:28.740 Yeah, you could do some TV and some other digital stuff when they get middle schoolish and past.

00:48:33.240 But if you can bake in the love of reading, that's the one sword that will best immunize your your young one for the rest of their lives.

00:48:41.440 And parents of teens, it's it's not too late, right?

00:48:44.160 Like if they want to if they've got a 15, 16 year old at home, they haven't been monitoring their social media or screen time or anything, even though it's more difficult.

00:48:51.840 It's not too late for those parents to start reassessing how they're parenting in that arena.

00:48:55.860 Right.

00:48:57.100 Absolutely not.

00:48:57.920 It just might be a little bit of a higher climb, but absolutely not.

00:49:01.260 And it's worth the fight.

00:49:02.400 It's worth the fight.

00:49:03.880 Yeah.

00:49:04.180 And more details on this.

00:49:05.600 You've written books about them.

00:49:06.580 So I just really encourage you guys.

00:49:08.120 I'm guessing they're wherever books are sold last year's book, Digital Madness, and then Glow Kids written in 2016.

00:49:14.780 So all the science and different tips and things like that you've already written about.

00:49:18.540 And I just really appreciate that.

00:49:20.620 Thank you so much for taking the time to come on.

00:49:24.260 And thank you for what you do, by the way.

00:49:25.840 I really appreciate your efforts with all this as well.

00:49:27.900 Thank you.

00:49:28.220 Thank you.

00:49:28.720 Thank you.

00:49:33.300 Wow.

00:49:33.760 I told you guys you are going to love that conversation.

00:49:36.200 You know, I don't always get to say everything that I want to say because I want to make sure that my guest is able to articulate their position fully.

00:49:44.740 But one thing I was thinking that I just wanted to follow up on, he mentioned how in prehistoric times, the advantage of the human species was that we formed community.

00:49:54.900 And that is how we survived.

00:49:56.940 Of course, I would say as a Christian that God made us that way.

00:50:00.460 He made us as communal beings.

00:50:02.280 He made us to need fellowship.

00:50:03.880 That's why when God made Adam, he said it is not good for man to be alone.

00:50:09.440 And then he made Eve as his helper and saw that this was very good.

00:50:15.180 And also we see that because we are made in God's image, as we read in Genesis 127, that means there is a part of our need for fellowship that is reflective of God himself.

00:50:24.220 And that is reflective in the nature of God, that he is Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

00:50:30.100 He is eternally, constantly in communion with himself.

00:50:34.180 And because we are made in his image, we are not meant to be in isolation.

00:50:37.780 Like you even read in Jesus's life that he was led by the spirit into the wilderness, into isolation so Satan could tempt him.

00:50:46.500 Of course, he used the power of God and his own divinity, his own godness and the power of the word of God to fend off Satan's temptations.

00:50:59.080 But he was pushed into isolation for that temptation.

00:51:02.780 And so all of these things, I think, indicate to us that real in-person interaction and not the isolation and the fake connectivity that we see on social media is actually embedded into the human psyche by a loving creator who knows what's best for us.

00:51:20.140 As with all things, science is constantly just trying to catch up to God.

00:51:25.860 All right.

00:51:26.520 That's all I wanted to say.

00:51:27.540 Thank you guys so much for listening.

00:51:29.080 We'll be back soon.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - May 11, 2023

Ep 803 ｜ The Science Behind Screen Addiction ｜ Guest： Dr. Nicholas Kardaras ｜ Part 2

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