Ep 814 ｜ ‘The Chosen’ Responds to Pride Flag ‘Controversy’ ｜ Guest： Rep. Jessica Baker
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Summary
On this episode of Relatable, we talk about the death penalty in Florida and why it is the only just punishment for certain crimes. God made man in his own image, but he also made him in the image of a God who values the life of a human being. And that is why he gives us the penalty of death for crimes such as murder, rape, and sexual assault.
Transcript
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The show The Chosen is getting some backlash after a picture of a pride flag on set started
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circulating on social media. Does this really matter? Why or why not? Also, we've got state
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representative Jessica Baker from Florida who filed the bill that then became law that allows
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for the state to pursue the death penalty when it comes to child rapists. This is not the only law
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that she has been a part of that protects children. The Rolling Stone is very angry, actually,
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about some of these laws that she's been a part of that have protected the innocence of kids.
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And she's going to talk about it all today on this episode of Relatable, which is brought to
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you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to GoodRanchers.com. Use code ALIA. Check out. That's
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GoodRanchers.com. Code ALI. Hey, guys. Welcome to Relatable. Happy Wednesday. Hope everyone is
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having a wonderful week so far. Can you believe y'all? It is the last day of May. May has flown by. I think
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it's been the fastest month of the year. It felt like April dragged on forever. And May has just
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gone by like lightning. And it is the eve of a very special month of the year where we celebrate
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the rainbow, which, of course, signifies God's promise to us and the Noahic covenant that we
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read about in Genesis 9. That's what everyone is celebrating, right? That's what all the rainbows are
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about. Oh, right. It's something a little bit different because the real rainbow has seven
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colors and the pride rainbow has six colors. Of course, now they add all the other silly colors
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on there. But there's always been that distinction, which I think is actually pretty significant
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considering that seven means completion and perfection in the Bible. And that is the sign
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of faithfulness that God gives us in Genesis 9. So let's read a little bit about Genesis 9 since
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we are on the eve of this very special month of focusing particularly on God's promise of
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faithfulness. And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, be fruitful and multiply and fill
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the earth. The fear of you and dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth and upon every bird
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of the heavens, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea into your hand,
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they are delivered. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. As I gave you the green
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plants, I give you everything, but you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is its blood. And for
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your lifeblood, I will require a reckoning from every beast. I will require it. And from man,
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from his fellow man, I will require a reckoning for the life of man. This particular verse is very
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relevant to what we're talking about today as we talk about the death penalty for particular crimes
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in Florida. This is verse six. Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed.
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For God made man in his own image. So here we see that God actually demands the death penalty for
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murder, not because he devalues human life, but because he values it so much. He roots his reasoning
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in something that is pre-Israel. It is pre-civilization. He roots it in a reality that is
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still just as true today, that God is made in his image, therefore, or that humans are made in God's
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image, rather. And therefore, the only just punishment for proven murder is the death penalty. And then he goes
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on to tell Noah, and you be fruitful and multiply, increase greatly on the earth and multiply it. He
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establishes the covenant with Noah and his offspring, and with every living creature that is with you, the
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birds, the livestock, and every beast of the earth with you, as many as came out of the ark. It is for every
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beast of the earth. And here's his covenant. Here's his promise that he signifies with the rainbow.
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I establish my covenant with you that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the
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flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth. And God said, this is the sign
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of the covenant that I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you. For all future
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generations, I have set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the
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earth. When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen in the clouds, I will remember my
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covenant that is between me and you. Wait, isn't that cool? I think so many times we take pictures of these
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rainbows, and of course, we think it's beautiful. We even know the science behind it. But God says every time
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he hangs this bow in the cloud, it is purposeful, it is intentional, it is done by him, and that he is actually
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actively remembering his covenant that is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh. And the
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waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. When the bow is in the clouds, I will see
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it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on
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the earth. God said to Noah, this is the sign of the covenant that I have established between me and
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all the flesh that is on the earth. How good is God that he actually gives us such a beautiful symbol
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of his promise and of his faithfulness. He has every right and really every reason as we look at the
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depravity that we see in the world today. The glorification of sin and evil and wickedness
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and deceit and confusion and chaos. He has every reason to destroy the earth again, and yet he promises
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by his mercy that he will not flood the earth again. Now, we know that evil and wickedness, according
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to Psalm 37, as we are reminded of very often on this podcast, will one day be no more. He will destroy
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the evil one. He will destroy evildoers. There will be a new heaven, a new earth. Everything will be
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restored and redeemed to how it was always meant to be. There will be no sorrow or sickness or sin or
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evil or politics or lies. There will be no rebellion or depravity. The great burdens and effects of
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iniquity will be gone forever. Christ will rule in perfect peace. Until then, we look to the rainbow
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to remember God's grace and his mercy and also his holiness and his wrath and his justice. All of these
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things we see in the seven colors of the rainbow. It's not surprising at all to me that this rejection of
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God's design, the rejection of what we see in the first chapter of the first book of the Bible, that
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God made us male and female in his image, that that movement of distortion has co-opted and changed
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slightly a symbol that signifies God's faithfulness. As we read in Romans 1,
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those who do so have exchanged the truth of God for a lie. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven
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against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. This is Romans 1, 18. Who by their unrighteousness
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suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them because God has shown it to them
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for his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly perceived
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ever since the creation of the world and the things that have been made. So they're without excuse for
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although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile
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in their thinking and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools
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and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal men, mortal man and birds
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and animals and creeping things. Therefore, God gave them up to the loss of their hearts, to impurity,
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to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie
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and worshiped and served the creature rather than the creator who is blessed forever. Amen.
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For this reason, God gave them up to dishonorable passions for their women exchanged natural
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relations for those that are contrary to nature. And the men likewise gave up natural relations with
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women and were consumed with passion for one another. Men committing shameless acts with men and
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receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge
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God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all
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manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They're full of envy, murder, strife,
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deceit, maliciousness. So it's not just talking about homosexuality here. We're talking about a whole
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host of sins that are in the heart. They're gossips, slanders, haters of God, insolent, haughty,
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boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they
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know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them,
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but give approval to those who practice them. Look, this was thousands of years ago. And what we
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read in Romans 1, it's true today too. There's a little bit of comfort in that, right? Like we think
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of the world just spiraling and getting closer and closer to evil, which I do think in some ways is
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absolutely true. But the truth is depravity just kind of changes itself and it morphs into different
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things with each generation, but it's always been the same. It's always been exchanging the truth of
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God for a lie. It has always been, as we often say, exchanging the God of scripture for the God of
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self. It goes all the way back to the garden, listening when Satan says, did God really say?
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Questioning God's goodness, questioning God's truth, questioning the trustworthiness and the
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goodness of his commands. The same thing that Adam and Eve did in the garden people are doing today.
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So while it manifests itself in different ways than it did thousands of years ago,
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the underlying deceit, the underlying sin remains the same. And what's the good news in that? The good
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news is that Hebrews 13, 8 tells us that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
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And this is what I read this morning in my Bible reading about Jesus and what he offers us and the
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hope that we have in the midst of all of this depravity. It's the same hope that Christians
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have always had for all of the church's existence. So this is Ephesians 1, starting in verse 3.
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Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every
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spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the
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world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love, he predestined us for adoption to
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himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious
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grace, with which he has blessed us in the beloved. In him, we have redemption through his blood. Amen.
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The forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us
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in all wisdom and insight, making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose,
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which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time to unite all things in him,
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things in heaven and things on earth. I really could read not just the rest of this chapter,
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but also chapter 2 to give you a perfect picture of what the gospel is, that all of us were dead in
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sin. All of us had once exchanged the truth of God for a lie. All of us once worshiped the God of
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self. So those of us who are now made alive in Christ by grace through faith, we don't look at
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those who are lost and say, I'm so much better than you. We say, thank the Lord for offering Christ
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as redemption for me. Thank the Lord that now, though once I was blind, I see. Thank the Lord that I've
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become a new creation, that I've been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. That is possible. That is possible,
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no matter how far gone you think that you are, no matter how far off you think that you are,
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no matter what you've done, no matter what you've thought, no matter what you feel, that salvation,
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redemption by grace through faith in Christ is possible for you. And once you see that, you will
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not only see that you've actually been enslaved to your sin, that you've actually been a slave to
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your emotions, but also that celebrating something like pride, which is a deadly sin, but also all the
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other sexual sins that are underneath the umbrella of pride and pride month, that you'll see that
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that is all rubbish compared to the treasure that you can inherit through Christ, which is freedom
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from sin and joy and profound peace and also eternal life with Christ rather than eternal punishment with
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Satan. So that's what we don't just celebrate that because of the rainbow that we see in Genesis 9.
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We don't just celebrate that in the month of June as a way to own the libs. We celebrate that all of
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the time. And now it's just a really good opportunity to remind people of what the real rainbow really
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means. It represents God's sovereignty and his power and his promises made manifest most beautifully
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through Christ. The gospel is good news. It's good news for you. It's good news for me.
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All right. Speaking of Jesus and rainbows and pride month, I want to talk about the story that I've
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seen circulating on Twitter, and that is about the chosen. We've had Dallas Jenkins on this podcast.
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We've talked a little bit about the chosen before, and I just wanted to note this controversy that's
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going on. This is according to the Daily Wire. An official social media account for the chosen
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defended the appearance of a rainbow colored pride flag on the set of the crowdfunded show,
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claiming that the endorsement from at least one team member would not affect the theological rigor of
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the project. We'll put a picture up. Here it is of what's going around on social media. And so as you
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can see, there's a little rainbow pride flag that is on one of the cameras as they are filming the
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chosen. If you don't know anything about the chosen, the chosen is, um, it's a show on Jesus's
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life. And as I said, we had the creator of the show on this podcast. This is not the first time
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the chosen has been embroiled in controversy. There is funding of the show that is from, um,
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that is from, uh, Mormon business owners. There have been some comments that have been made by
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Dallas Jenkins about Mormonism. We actually talked about those things a little bit in our, um, in our
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interview. And they're very, very disparate opinions about the chosen. There are some Christians who say
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this is a trap. It doesn't depict Jesus biblically. And some people who actually say that it's blasphemous
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to depict Jesus, uh, how they do. And then there's other people who say, you know what,
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this gives me a very good kind of, um, uh, understanding of what Jesus's life was probably
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like, his relationship with his disciples. And they would say, yes, there's creative license
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taken here. Of course there has to be. And, but it stays true to the biblical account. And this is
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just kind of a creative rendering storytelling of the life of Christ. So very, very different opinions
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among Christians and even non-Christians about the chosen, but Christian conservatives, they're
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seeing this pride flag and they're saying, aha, you know, they've been captured basically by
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progressism, but progressivism by leftism. So according to the daily wire turning point USA
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contributor and former sports reporter, John Rue asked the chosen to explain the presence of the
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pride flag on set. And here's what a social media account said from the chosen, just like with our
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hundreds of cast and crew who have different beliefs or no belief at all than we do. We will
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work with anyone on our show who helps portray or honor the authentic Jesus. We ask the audiences,
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let the show speak for itself and focus on the message, not the messenger, because we will always
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let you down. Uh, root press the chosen to answer, whether it's God honoring to promote a symbol that
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represents sexual immorality, a worldly definition of marriage, and the idea that we can change our
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biological sex. So here's where I stand on this. And I actually agree. Like I agree with
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John Rude is saying with what John Rude is saying here. I don't blame him for asking the chosen to
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give kind of an explanation of this. Um, at the same time, I do think that the chosen is correct
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in saying, look, we are going to work with people of all different backgrounds. Like every company does
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every conservative company, unless you are a Christian ministry, like you are going to have people
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of all different backgrounds. There are people who work on this show who don't agree with a lot of
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the things I say, or some of the things that I say. And, um, and so that's going to happen. That's
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simply going to happen when you have camera people, when you have editors, when you have different
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people that are working on the show that are willing to contribute to the mission of the show,
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but don't necessarily align, um, with all of the theological tenants that may be the creator
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of the show holds. And, um, again, it depends on like, are you a Christian ministry? And so you are
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having all of your employees and all of the people who work with you abide by some theological tenants,
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or are you, um, uh, a business that maybe you have a Christian mission, but you are hiring some
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people either through freelance or whatever to help you advance this mission and, or help you
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advance your goals and your causes who don't necessarily align with all your theological
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positions. I would say that the chosen is probably the latter. Like, yeah, there are going to be in
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this conservative, as a conservative Christian, in this conservative Christian space that I'm in,
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there are going to be photographers. There are going to be some editors that don't align with
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everything that I have to say. Now I will say, I think that the pride flag itself is a little weird.
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I would not know that I would say, no, you can believe what you want to believe, but look like,
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why are you waving this pride flag? I think that that's odd. Again, I don't think that that necessarily
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implicates the chosen or that implicates Dallas Jenkins. You might have other problems with the
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chosen and Dallas Jenkins, and you might have other pro or other reasons why you are not watching the
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show that are much deeper than this whole controversy. But I don't think the existence of the pride
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flag necessarily, I don't think that is the thing that discredits the chosen or that that is the reason
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why you shouldn't watch the chosen. Again, there are lots of reasons that people may have not to watch
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the chosen, but I don't know that this, the existence of the pride flag is one of them because it
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absolutely is possible for someone to not agree with everything that is being said in front of a
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camera and still operate from behind the camera. So I just think that we need to be a little bit
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realistic in when it comes to what is the cause of a project? What is the project? Again, are you
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working with secular people in secular organizations to advance a cause? Or are you a ministry? Are you a
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church? Are you an organization that needs an absolutely cohesive theological vision?
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And so, yeah, and you know, this article from the Daily Wire by Ben Zeisloft, I think that's how you
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pronounce his name. It's very good. It's just summarizing the controversy. It doesn't, you know,
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say any particular position. It doesn't say that people should stop watching the chosen. It's just
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kind of summarizing what people are saying about it. Ben Zeisloft, he's a very good reporter for the
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Daily Wire. He's written several things that I've really enjoyed. And so I appreciate his very clear
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summary of everything that's going on here. So look, again, I would just say when it comes to the chosen
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that you should be doing your research and you should be looking at people's sincere concerns. You might not
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land on the same conclusions, but we should be thoughtful about everything that we consume.
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But I think especially when something is purporting to portray some kind of biblical message. I know a
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lot of strong Christians who love the chosen. I know a lot of strong Christians who absolutely do not
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like the chosen and warn against it. I don't think that this issue is the deal breaker. I just don't.
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Knowing what I know about the industry and everything and the different kinds of people that you happen to
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work with. It doesn't mean that you are compromising on your theology just because someone you work
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with is. All right, let's bring it to Florida before we get to the state representative, Jessica Baker
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from Florida. I also wanted to highlight this story from Rolling Stone. Rolling Stone is really sad
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that FurryCon, which is a conference for people who dress up like animals. And I know that people will
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say, oh, no, it's just innocent. It's just an innocent, harmless hobby that adults have. No, it's not.
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It is a sexual fetish. I'm not saying it's a sexual fetish for everyone. But anyone who is denying
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that this furry community, especially online, fetishizes bestiality, like you are just living in
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an alternate reality. This is sexual. And Rolling Stone is really sad that this conference full of
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fetishizing furries cannot include children because of a Florida law. So here's what Rolling Stone says.
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Last week, organizers behind Megaplex, an Orlando-based convention for furries, people who enjoy
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dressing up as or making art of anthropomorphized creatures, posted a statement on Twitter regarding
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its policy for admitting minors. So this bill, Senate Bill 1438, the state representative that we are
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about to talk to actually had a hand when it came to the House version of this bill. This is what the
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bill says. Adult live performance means any show, exhibition or other presentation in front of a
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live audience, which in whole or in part depicts or simulates nudity, sexual conduct, sexual excitement
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or specific sexual activities as those terms are defined. It elude conduct or the elude exposure of
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prosthetic or imitation genitals or breasts when it predominantly appeals to to a shameful or morbid
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interest is patently offensive to prevailing standards in the adult community of the state
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as a whole with respect to what is suitable material or conduct for the age of the child present and taken
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as a whole is without serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value for the age of the
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child present. So if furrydom and drag shows, as we are told by the left, are not sexual at all,
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they're just totally normal, innocent interests that children can take part in and become more
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empathetic and inclusive beings, then why would this law have any effect? Like it just defined,
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it just defined exactly what it means by these kinds of lewd displays in front of children.
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And so if drag shows are totally innocent, if there's no nudity, no twerking, no stripping,
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no lap dancing, no inappropriateness, and if furry shows are just basically a bunch of
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fun-loving, stuffed animal-loving people, then why would they be affected at all by a law like this?
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But of course, that's what the left does. They simultaneously say this is not happening and it's
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good that it is. So here's what Rolling Stone has to say and why they're so sad about it.
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They paint this as a tragic story. While it is true that there's a segment of furrydom
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that does treat it as kink, it is not a representation of the wider community, they claim.
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They claim that while many conventions do cater to the sexualized aspects of furry fandom,
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they typically have such programming for later at night to ensure the rest of the con
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is family-friendly. The ACLU called this a blatant attempt to erase drag performers
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and silence the LGBTQ community. Again, why? Why? If it's just banning sexualized displays
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in front of children, why does this have any effect on the LGBTQ community in drag shows if those things
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aren't sexual at all? So weird. Did you know that, according to this article, 80% of furries
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self-identify as LGBTQ? Wow. Shocker. So shocking. Rolling Stone also says that a sizable percentage
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of furries are also neurodivergent. Believing that the furry community is a safe haven. Oh,
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there's so much to unpack there. So much to unpack. Parents, careful. Careful what you let your
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children and teens see and get into online. So they're sad about this. They're sad that
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Florida is banning these sexual shows for children. They actually think, you know, even if some segment
00:25:53.460
of drag, even if some segment of, of furriedom is, uh, is sexual, it's basically, they're saying it's
00:26:02.900
worth the risk of a child being exposed to this kind of sexuality. It's worth it because it's so,
00:26:09.480
you know, it's such a small chance that they'll even be exposed to this. Why not just let them be
00:26:15.280
there? Look, we know what's going on. We know what's going on. All right. You can't hide it anymore.
00:26:21.620
The slip, we've slipped down the slippery slope. We're there. I mean, this was really quick. This
00:26:29.000
was a really quick progression from Obergefell to today. I'm not saying that everyone who is
00:26:36.640
identifies as LGBTQ is on board with this stuff. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying when your mantra
00:26:43.520
is love is love, you are going to accept all kinds of perversion and depravity in the name of love.
00:26:54.820
Love is love is the exact same logic as trans women are women. It's an axiom. It's circular.
00:27:03.000
You're not actually defining what love is. You're not setting standards. You're not putting parameters
00:27:07.820
around it. You're not regulating it at all. If love is love, then love can be anything that a
00:27:14.180
person defines it as. And like, you can see where that has gone, right? If trans women are women and
00:27:19.380
you never actually define women, then anyone at any time for any reason can say that they're a woman
00:27:24.920
and we see where that has gone, right? I know that there are some people who want to separate
00:27:30.280
the different parts of LGBTQ. It's all the same math. It all starts with this belief that men and
00:27:36.220
women are arbitrary, that we were not made by a purposeful creator in the image of God as male and
00:27:42.320
female, that we are totally interchangeable. The idea that two men or two women is the same as a male
00:27:47.760
and a female is the same idea that men can become women and women can become men. It's all based on the
00:27:53.680
idea that it's arbitrary, that we are self-defining, self-identifying people who can, upon announcement
00:28:01.920
and declaration, override our biology and our teleology. And it's an anti-Christian belief that I think can only
00:28:12.380
be combated by Christianity. It can only be combated by the belief that no, there is a creator who, because
00:28:19.380
Genesis 1-1 created all things, defined all things, and told us what male and female is, told us what right and wrong
00:28:29.300
is, told us what true and false is, because of the existence of him, reality actually matters. Teleology
00:28:37.840
matters. Biology actually matters. We don't get to self-identify because we were not self-created. We
00:28:43.840
were created by a God who has greater power to define and identify than we do. And by the way,
00:28:51.840
bestiality is harshly condemned in the Old Testament. There's a reason for that. There's a reason why it is
00:28:58.760
seen as an abomination. There's a reason why it's crossover. There's crossover here. Again, if love is
00:29:05.640
love, there are really no boundaries to it, and we will continue to slip down this very slippery slope.
00:29:13.700
All right. Let's get into this interview with Representative Jessica Baker, who has done an
00:29:21.700
incredible job of championing some very just bills protecting women and children. This particular
00:29:28.380
bill that I think surprisingly got some backlash, actually not surprisingly, but disgustingly got
00:29:34.660
some backlash, was the bill that has now been signed into law that says, look, for certain cases of child
00:29:41.120
rape, you get the death penalty. And this is biblical, by the way. Of course, there is Old Testament support
00:29:46.480
for this, not just death penalty for child rape, but also just rape in general. It is a gross violation
00:29:52.000
of the Imago Dei and the dignity of human beings. And so this just says under the age of 12,
00:29:59.260
the state should have the option to issue the death penalty. And so she's going to explain her reasoning
00:30:04.880
and her response to some of the pushback that she's gotten. Before we get into it, let me show you this
00:30:12.100
clip of Representative Baker on the House floor explaining why she is so passionate about this
00:30:19.860
legislation. There is no earthly redemption for somebody who rapes a small child. Only God can save
00:30:28.040
them. And in Florida, we should be eager to arrange that meeting. Members, I ask for your support.
00:30:37.180
That's just, she's right. There is no earthly redemption. Now, she specified that. She's not
00:30:45.700
saying that God cannot redeem their souls and cannot change their hearts. God can redeem anyone.
00:30:51.960
They can be made new and they can go to heaven by grace through faith. But that does not negate the
00:31:01.080
role of the state, as we see very clearly in Romans 13, to punish the wrongdoer, even with the sword.
00:31:11.540
People who say, oh, well, we shouldn't have the death penalty because God can redeem anyone.
00:31:17.660
If, okay, well, then by that logic, we shouldn't have laws at all. We shouldn't have any punishment.
00:31:22.600
But God very clearly tells us what the role and the responsibility of the government is that
00:31:27.600
even includes execution for particular crimes. And she will outline exactly what the stipulations
00:31:34.120
are, what the standards are. And this, I think you'll be very educated and inspired by this interview.
00:31:51.140
Representative Baker, thanks so much for taking the time to come on. I want to talk to you about a few
00:31:56.300
things, but I've been wanting to talk to you for the past few weeks, since I saw this kind of viral
00:32:00.820
video going around of you talking on the house floor of the Florida House about this bill that is,
00:32:08.980
that enacts the death penalty in sexual battery cases involving children younger than 12. And in a
00:32:16.420
speech, you say, look, there's no earthly redemption, should be no earthly redemption for these people
00:32:23.120
who rape a child. I happen to agree with that as far as the criminal justice system goes. So tell me a
00:32:29.800
little bit about why you helped create this bill and kind of what inspired you to do so.
00:32:37.020
So I filed this bill to protect our children from the most monstrance act imaginable. I'm a mother of
00:32:45.460
two young kids. I have a five-year-old son. I have a four-year-old daughter and I'm a prosecutor.
00:32:50.500
And so nothing is more important to me than protecting our children. And so what this bill
00:32:55.500
seeks to do is it seeks to punish and deter those who would commit this most heinous act against our
00:33:02.300
kids. I would argue that these people who do this are the most morally depraved persons on the face
00:33:09.180
of this earth. And I don't think there's any punishment that would really redeem them. And I think
00:33:16.720
that death penalty should be eligible for them. So what they do to a child when they commit this act
00:33:21.960
is they effectively murder them. I mean, they're taking away their innocence. They're ripping their
00:33:26.500
soul and their life away. And the child will never be the same. You can never undo what happened.
00:33:31.720
Right. So this is according to Axios. Florida Governor Ron DeSantis signed a bill into law that
00:33:37.400
allows for sexual battery against a child under 12 years old to be considered a capital offense
00:33:43.300
punishable by the death penalty. The bill requires that a jury unanimously find that at least two
00:33:49.020
aggravating factors existed for the defendant to be eligible for the death penalty. The law lists 11
00:33:56.480
aggravating factors, including things like a previous felony conviction. The defendant was registered as a
00:34:02.380
sex offender. The particular vulnerability of the victim due to age, disability or familial
00:34:07.520
custodial relationship. So there are a lot of factors that play into this to ensure that justice
00:34:14.640
is actually being done. Obviously, just like in all cases, this person has still has a right to a fair
00:34:22.880
and a speedy trial. They have to actually be convicted of this. Sometimes it seems like people forget that
00:34:28.260
there is a fair and just process that would precede something like capital punishment. But tell me a
00:34:34.480
little bit about the pushback that you've gotten and has it surprised you.
00:34:41.040
So I do want to talk about what you just brought up, which is there are two stages. We this we are
00:34:46.640
talking about a person who has already been convicted unanimously. And so I think a lot of the Democrats
00:34:51.880
would argue, well, we don't want to convict someone who is innocent or put someone to death who's
00:34:56.120
innocent. But we're talking about a person who has been convicted unanimously. The state has proved
00:35:02.520
beyond a reasonable doubt that this person was guilty of that crime. And now we're moving on to
00:35:07.080
the sentencing phase. And what people don't know is there are a lot of layers of protection, if you
00:35:12.580
will. So first, the state has to prove two aggravating factors. And that's different than in our capital
00:35:19.800
murder cases, where they only have to prove one aggravating factor. And they have to prove those two
00:35:24.720
beyond a reasonable doubt. And the jury has to find unanimously that the state did prove beyond any
00:35:32.300
reasonable doubt or exclusion that these two aggravating factors occurred. And then the jury's
00:35:39.640
got to find that there's sufficient aggravating evidence and that those aggravating factors outweigh
00:35:45.600
the mitigating circumstances. So the defense is going to put on, they're going to put on facts to the
00:35:51.220
trial that show mitigating circumstances. And the jury will have to find that those aggravating factors
00:35:56.380
outweigh the mitigating circumstances. And then we have to have at least eight jurors recommend the
00:36:03.340
death sentence to the judge. And additionally, beyond that, there's another, if you will, layer of
00:36:09.080
protection. The judge will have judicial discretion to bring that death sentence recommendation down to
00:36:14.700
a life sentence. What is a little bit different is for the last few years in Florida, we would have to
00:36:22.120
have a unanimous jury find a recommendation of death. And now we are bringing it back down to eight.
00:36:29.940
But previously in Florida, prior to 2017, it was actually seven jurors. So we're actually bringing
00:36:35.600
it back in line with what it used to be in Florida for many, many decades. And it's actually greater
00:36:40.480
than what it used to be. So I did want to bring that up about the different stages, because a lot
00:36:47.940
of people get very confused where we are in the stages of the trial and the sentencing phase.
00:36:53.360
Right. So there are some opponents. Some believe that the law is in direct violation of the U.S.
00:36:58.880
Supreme Court decision in Kennedy v. Louisiana, which found it unconstitutional for states to use
00:37:03.660
capital punishment for a crime other than murder. For example, Aaron Waite, he represents the
00:37:10.380
Florida Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers has spoken against the legislation saying courtrooms
00:37:15.080
must be a place for justice and not vengeance. Oh, I have a real problem myself, actually, with his
00:37:21.860
logic. This bill invites a longer, costlier process that the victim and their family will endure.
00:37:29.420
So tell me what you say to something like that. Obviously, not just as a legislator, but as a
00:37:33.960
prosecutor, you would have considered all of these different things and potential
00:37:38.320
opposing arguments before you actually filed this bill. So what would your response be?
00:37:46.040
Absolutely. I did a lot of research into these Supreme Court cases. And so what we have are
00:37:52.020
there were two opinions, basically, that led ultimately to this decision in 2008 by Kennedy
00:37:57.580
v. Louisiana. But when you read the opinions, what you what you'll find is they were really improperly
00:38:05.040
decided because the court used to their own independent judgment to come to this finding
00:38:10.840
of this evolving national standard of decency in saying that the rape of a child is unconstitutional.
00:38:18.380
But the reasoning didn't point to any statutory law. It didn't point to any constitutional provisions.
00:38:24.940
And so I think this is very much acceptable to reconsideration by the U.S. Supreme Court
00:38:30.680
when justices legislate from the bench and they cite an evolving standard standard rather than basing
00:38:37.660
the opinion on statutory law or the text of the Constitution. I think that invites
00:38:42.540
this reasoning to be challenged and revisited. And so going more deeper into the case law,
00:38:50.620
if you'd like me to. Yeah. The first case. Yeah. The first case was from 1977. It's Coker v. Georgia.
00:38:58.040
The case held that the rape of an adult woman, the death penalty would be ineligible or unconstitutional
00:39:05.700
for the rape of an adult woman. And around that precedent, around that decision, they discussed
00:39:14.280
rape versus murder. They discussed whether, you know, the death penalty should be eligible.
00:39:20.300
In cases of rape in general. But that was dicta. That was opinion by the court. That wasn't
00:39:25.640
the holding of the case. And so when Kennedy looked to Coker v. Georgia, they really looked
00:39:32.240
at the dicta of the opinion. And you'll see that the the dissent in Kennedy, it was a five
00:39:38.540
to four decision, by the way. So a very narrow decision. The dissent in Kennedy pointed out that
00:39:44.240
for 30 years, state legislatures operated under this shadow of Coker, where maybe they thought
00:39:52.300
that the state would hold this unconstitutional. So maybe they were, you know, out of respect for
00:39:57.480
the U.S. Supreme Court. They were not passing laws that would have the death penalty eligible in cases
00:40:04.860
of child rape. But what I would say is their inaction to pass a law that they think might
00:40:11.220
be futile could not then be interpreted as a standard of decency in society. I think it's
00:40:17.300
up to states to decide the punishment for these most heinous crimes. So that's that's kind of where
00:40:23.320
I did. I did a lot of my research, looked at these two cases up to 2008. The death penalty is eligible
00:40:30.320
for hundreds of years for the rape of a small child. If you go back to when our founding fathers
00:40:36.400
wrote the Constitution, the death penalty was eligible in all cases of common law felonies.
00:40:42.300
That's kidnap, that's rape, that's murder, that's robbery. So actually, we've come a long way where
00:40:48.600
a lot of these things are no longer death penalty eligible.
00:41:00.320
And just to reiterate something that you explained and then also just alluded to
00:41:08.400
this case of Kennedy v. Louisiana, I really encourage people to go read about it and read
00:41:14.600
about what was involved in this case. I mean, if you have the stomach for it, it is an absolutely
00:41:20.720
heinous crime that is described this brutal, brutal rape of someone's eight year old stepdaughter.
00:41:29.040
And then, of course, the more liberal members of the court decided that it was unconstitutional,
00:41:33.720
cruel and unusual punishment for this person to get the death penalty. And I think that if this law
00:41:40.560
is challenged and goes all the way to the Supreme Court, that it's it's worth that it's worth,
00:41:47.680
I think, fighting it that far in that hard. And that's actually like what the governor,
00:41:53.860
what the state of Florida said that it's going to do, that they're going to continue to push this
00:41:58.320
if it is challenged. I mean, there are fewer things more worth it than that. I think defending
00:42:04.280
the dignity and the rights of these most vulnerable victims. Right. So I think no hurdle is too high to
00:42:12.060
protect our kids. And I believe that most of these people who would do this to a child
00:42:18.160
are more morally depraved than someone who would pull a trigger. I think most people in America would
00:42:26.040
say that abusing a child for sexual gratification is demonic. I think it's the epitome of moral
00:42:32.280
depravity. So I'm hopeful and optimistic this will go up to the U.S. Supreme Court and I hope they will
00:42:40.260
recede from Kennedy. This is also an infringement of our state's rights to determine what the punishment
00:42:46.760
is for these types of crimes. So I am optimistic that they will. It's a different court than it was
00:42:52.140
in 2008. And it is such a narrow decision. We know that the Supreme Court is never held by its prior
00:42:59.580
rulings. They overturn precedent all the time in the history of this country going back hundreds of
00:43:05.280
years. So this is nothing new. They definitely can overturn Kennedy versus Louisiana.
00:43:10.780
Yes. And the makeup of the Supreme Court is different. And I don't that doesn't necessarily
00:43:15.540
guarantee that it would be overturned. Obviously, we kind of have some wild cards that are typically
00:43:20.620
considered the conservative justices on the Supreme Court. And so it's hard to determine which way they
00:43:26.300
would rule, at least right now. We'd have to look at some past similar rulings by some of these
00:43:31.220
justices. But I think that is absolutely worth the fight. And it's actually kind of surprising to me
00:43:38.900
that this hasn't been brought forth sooner, that this isn't something that has been challenged more
00:43:46.160
frequently than it is right now, because certainly children being raped, sexually abused for gratification
00:43:54.140
isn't new. And so it must be that some people just don't think it's worth the fight. It's not
00:44:00.400
politically expedient. I know there's even some pushback against the death penalty in general,
00:44:05.480
even on the right. Did you deal with any kind of opposition from people on your own side when it
00:44:11.880
came to the death penalty? Mostly, no, absolutely not. I think I think all Republicans voted yes on the
00:44:21.600
bill. I do recall having some conversations with people who don't believe in the death penalty on the
00:44:28.100
right and on the left. So and you can't argue against that if you don't believe in the death penalty, you
00:44:33.560
don't believe in the death penalty. But a majority of Republicans, vast, vast majority do. And actually,
00:44:40.540
when I was first interviewed about this bill, when I filed it, our local news station put a survey
00:44:46.480
on the website and they asked, do you believe in the death penalty for child rapists? And 92% of
00:44:53.760
respondents said yes. So I think most of America would agree that this is the most heinous crime.
00:45:00.560
If we're going to protect our kids, this is the punishment that the state should have the option
00:45:06.120
to do. And I want to be clear, not all cases will be able to go to the death penalty. It's like we
00:45:14.340
talked about earlier, there are a lot of specific hurdles that the state has to overcome. And
00:45:20.880
furthermore, the state has to prove the case, the person has to be convicted guilty. And in a lot of
00:45:25.620
these cases, when you have kids who are under 12, these people that do this to the kids, they know the
00:45:30.800
kids, there's a relationship there, unfortunately, and the kids are not coming forward right away. So there
00:45:36.640
might not be forensic evidence. And I think that's why you see a lot of these times, these perpetrators
00:45:42.380
will get maybe not a life sentence, maybe they have to come down, because the state doesn't know that they can
00:45:49.060
fully prove it in trial. So again, we're talking about a very small amount of cases that we'll see, it could
00:45:55.720
take years before we see the state go after a case in Florida.
00:46:00.380
Yeah, and you know, the standard should be should be high. And that is one of the great things about our
00:46:05.840
justice system is that yes, of course, there's punishment for crimes. But the standard that you have to reach
00:46:13.020
as the as the state is really high to be able to pursue really any kind of punishment, but certainly the death
00:46:21.220
penalty. And that's we agree with that, even as heinous as murder is, as heinous as rape is, we still believe
00:46:28.040
that that person is entitled to rights, that they should have a fair trial, they should have a speedy trial.
00:46:34.700
Justice means that it has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that that person committed that crime. And
00:46:41.120
again, I just think people kind of forget that that we're able to if someone is accused of something,
00:46:46.020
we can just slap them with the death penalty, and they'll go straight to death row. That's not how it
00:46:50.760
happens. If you are able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, meeting all of these hurdles that you've laid
00:46:55.680
out that you brutally raped a child. I think again, it's really difficult to try to argue against someone
00:47:01.680
being executed in this case. Some some pushback that I saw on Twitter, and then on a couple news
00:47:10.620
websites that I thought was very strange. Here's one headline from an outlet called the body why
00:47:15.280
Florida's new death penalty legislation could hurt the LGBTQ community. Another headline, a new Florida
00:47:22.300
bill could spell literal death for queer and trans citizens. Basically, the kind of a leap that they're
00:47:29.260
trying to make is well, you know, people on the right call LGBTQ people, groomers. And so now they're
00:47:36.760
just going to be able to sentence them to death. Again, a lot of confusion about how this process
00:47:43.060
works. But also, if you don't rape a child, it really doesn't matter how you identify, you're not
00:47:53.420
Exactly. We're not going after someone because they're LGBT. We're going after a perpetrator who
00:48:00.000
committed a crime, irregardless of what they identify as or what their sexual orientation is. Yeah, we're
00:48:07.060
going after someone who commits the most heinous crime against our most vulnerable, our kids under the
00:48:14.360
Yeah, absolutely. And there have been some other what some people would call controversial bills that you
00:48:21.200
have been a part of, either that you've sponsored or that you've filed. Of course, I'm supportive of them.
00:48:27.160
Um, but you know, the media likes to, uh, likes to manipulate things. So for example, uh, the HB 106.9
00:48:36.620
removing pronoun politics, expanding parental rights and education that was sponsored by you. Um, uh,
00:48:44.800
HB 1438 protecting children's innocence that prohibits explicit adult performances in front of minors,
00:48:52.740
uh, HB 1521 ensuring women's safety and sex specific locations like locker rooms, correctional
00:48:59.920
facilities. And thankfully you have a governor that is very supportive of these things, which
00:49:05.260
are common sense. They shouldn't even have to be, I think, defined specifically by law, but tell me
00:49:11.580
like what has given you the courage and the inspiration to not just, uh, not just file the bill that we just
00:49:18.260
talked about, but specifically go after this very contentious issue of protecting women's sex-based
00:49:25.200
rights and spaces, also protecting the innocence of children when it comes to like these drag shows.
00:49:31.100
So this, this goes back to the reasons I ran for office and I've, I've never run for office before.
00:49:37.820
This is the first position I've ever held in government. Um, and the reason I decided to run
00:49:43.980
for office is because what I saw in 2020, I saw the mask mandates of our kids. I saw the lockdowns,
00:49:51.140
the shutdowns. It was a country that I didn't recognize anymore. And, and if people don't
00:49:56.120
remember, we had a lot of writing in 2020. And then we learned about the indoctrination of our kids
00:50:01.400
in our schools. Um, all of a sudden this transgender pronouns started showing up in schools that I've never
00:50:08.960
heard of before. And I still don't understand frankly. Uh, and so that's really what prompted
00:50:14.000
me to want to do something. Um, we're, we have to fight this. It's so important. And we are blessed
00:50:20.480
in Florida to have a great governor, um, who under his leadership, we've been able to do so many things
00:50:26.260
and also under speaker renner. So that's why I wanted to co-sponsor the bills like the bathroom bill,
00:50:31.960
um, the pronoun bill, ending those in schools, getting back to the basics. Uh, we had the drag
00:50:37.820
show bill, um, making it, um, a crime for anyone under the age of 18 to attend those, those drag
00:50:45.500
shows. Uh, but yeah, we had a great session. Um, I think we did really just good things for the state
00:50:52.060
of Florida for protecting our kids. The 1297 was one of those bills that really does protect our kids.
00:50:59.640
And it's going to deter the behavior of this, the most heinous crime, um, that you can imagine
00:51:06.180
on our children. Um, and so I'm very proud of what I did, um, and what we did in the state of Florida.
00:51:12.940
Yes. Well, I am so thankful for your courage. I'm also thankful that governor DeSantis has had
00:51:18.120
your back on this and has really supported these bills that you've put forth. Um, it's, you know,
00:51:24.700
it's, it's a great time to be living, I think in the state of Florida with people like you that
00:51:29.420
are pushing actual justice for innocent victims, especially children and women. So thank you so
00:51:34.740
much, representative. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on. Thank you so much