Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 816 ｜ Reliving the Trauma of Sharing a Locker Room with 'Lia' Thomas ｜ Guest： Riley Gaines

00:00:00.000 Riley Gaines was an elite collegiate swimmer who was forced to change in front of and compete 0.80

00:00:07.560 against a man at the end of her college athletics career.

00:00:11.480 And now she is still making waves as an advocate for women's sports.

00:00:17.960 And so we're going to be talking to Riley today, why she has chosen to step up.

00:00:22.460 Also, she's got a special announcement that she's making at the end of this episode.

00:00:26.060 But first, I just want to start off the day and the week with a little bit of biblical 0.57

00:00:30.860 encouragement for my Relatable crew.

00:00:34.860 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:37.480 Go to GoodRanchers.com.

00:00:39.380 Use code Allie at checkout. 1.00

00:00:40.940 That's GoodRanchers.com.

00:00:42.020 Code Allie. 1.00

00:00:52.660 Hey, guys, welcome to Relatable.

00:00:54.540 Happy Monday.

00:00:56.060 I hope everyone had a wonderful weekend.

00:00:57.920 All right.

00:00:58.520 Before we get into our conversation with Riley, I just wanted to give some Monday morning

00:01:03.360 encouragement.

00:01:04.260 You guys know I like to do this sometimes at the top of every episode, sometimes just at

00:01:08.160 the beginning of the week to remind you to simply do the next right thing in faith with

00:01:13.400 excellence and for the glory of God.

00:01:17.140 In fact, if you're going to Young Women's Leadership Summit this weekend, I will be there

00:01:21.560 speaking on Saturday, and we will have some merch, a shirt with that on it that I think

00:01:27.560 is super cute.

00:01:28.420 Maybe my favorite piece of merch that we've ever gotten.

00:01:33.160 Also, don't forget, we have some Noeah Covenant month shirts, some beautiful rainbow attire that

00:01:39.820 reminds us of God's faithfulness for sale at AllieMerch.com.

00:01:44.240 I don't know if the Do Everything in Faith with Excellence and for the Glory of God church

00:01:49.040 will be made available to everyone, or if it's just those of you going to YWLS.

00:01:54.200 I'm not sure I'll let you know about that.

00:01:56.060 But that was just an aside.

00:01:57.640 My encouragement to you is today, do the next right thing in faith with excellence and

00:02:02.040 for the glory of God.

00:02:02.960 I posted on Instagram some ways that we can glorify God this month of June.

00:02:07.940 And of course, these are things that we can be doing all of the time.

00:02:10.660 But as we look to the rainbow, the seven colors of the rainbow, to remember God's promises,

00:02:15.160 we can just double down on our spirit-powered efforts to glorify Him, to love our neighbor,

00:02:22.440 and to do everything that we can in faith and with excellence.

00:02:25.860 I just wanted to share some thoughts, too, as I know that we live in this chaotic culture.

00:02:30.800 That's why we have this podcast, Relatable.

00:02:33.200 I'm relating to you about what it's like to navigate the craziness of this godless era

00:02:40.440 in a way that is hopefully as clear and as courageous and as biblical as we possibly and fallibly can.

00:02:51.220 And I love passages that remind me that while it looks like evil is prevailing, while it looks

00:02:56.740 like Satan is winning, that God is always accomplishing His purposes, that His eternal

00:03:02.320 plan of redemption is always going off without a hitch, that there is no obstacle that can

00:03:07.620 ever be put in His way that will hinder Him from accomplishing His will.

00:03:11.660 One of the verses that I recommended memorizing for the month of June is Job 42.2, one of my favorite

00:03:18.260 verses, that no plan of God's can be thwarted.

00:03:22.880 That's a little bit of a paraphrase.

00:03:25.240 No plan of God's can be thwarted.

00:03:27.760 While it might look like His plans and purposes are being thwarted, ultimately, He is in control

00:03:34.500 and His ultimate victory is sure.

00:03:37.820 So the person who preached at my church over the weekend, we were not in this chapter, but

00:03:45.200 he referenced Acts 16.

00:03:47.100 And sometimes this happens when I'm listening to sermons.

00:03:49.280 No matter how wonderful the sermon is and the person who is preaching is, I kind of get

00:03:54.260 sucked into another passage and I start thinking about it.

00:03:57.160 And that's what happened when he referenced Acts 16.

00:04:00.980 Acts 16, it starts out, Timothy joins Paul and Silas.

00:04:05.840 They are evangelizing in the city of Philippi.

00:04:10.240 As they are going to a place of prayer, Paul and Silas, starting in verse 16, it says,

00:04:16.840 we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain 1.00

00:04:23.900 by fortune telling.

00:04:25.860 So she could foresee the future in some way.

00:04:30.340 And so the owners of this slave girl were making a lot of money from it.

00:04:34.280 She followed Paul and us crying out, these men are servants of the Most High God who proclaim

00:04:38.980 to you the way of salvation.

00:04:41.960 And this she kept doing for many days.

00:04:45.120 Paul, having become greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, I command you in the

00:04:50.560 name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.

00:04:52.560 And it came out of her that very hour.

00:04:54.720 So she was actually possessed by an evil spirit that was allowing her to have this power of

00:04:59.720 divination.

00:05:00.800 But when her owner saw that their hope of gain was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and

00:05:05.160 dragged them into the marketplace before the rulers.

00:05:08.140 Long story short, they had them arrested. 0.73

00:05:10.540 They said, these men are Jews and they're disturbing our city.

00:05:13.080 They advocate customs that are not lawful for us as Romans to accept or practice. 0.98

00:05:18.300 And so the crowd joined in attacking them, started beating them.

00:05:21.180 They were thrown in to prison while they were in prison.

00:05:24.420 Verse 25 says about midnight, Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God and the

00:05:29.900 prisoners were listening to them.

00:05:31.140 And suddenly there was a great earthquake so that the foundations of the prison were shaken

00:05:35.220 and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone's bonds were unfastened.

00:05:39.600 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was

00:05:43.320 about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped.

00:05:46.860 But Paul cried with a loud voice, do not harm yourself for we are all here.

00:05:51.300 And the jailer called for lights and rushed in trembling with fear.

00:05:54.980 He fell down before Paul and Silas.

00:05:57.320 Then he brought them out and said, sirs, what must I do to be saved?

00:06:00.700 And they said, believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

00:06:04.060 You and your household.

00:06:05.920 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.

00:06:09.500 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds.

00:06:12.880 And he was baptized at once, he and all his family.

00:06:15.980 Then he brought them into his house and set food before them.

00:06:18.340 And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

00:06:23.620 And then there is more to that chapter that is equally just beautiful and miraculous and

00:06:28.500 shows God's plan of redemption.

00:06:30.520 But what I love about this, and we see this so often in stories throughout scripture,

00:06:36.360 is that we see that something that seemed like an interruption, that seemed like a hindrance,

00:06:41.280 that seemed like an obstacle that Satan was putting in the way of Christians actually turned

00:06:46.620 out to be the very thing that led to the purpose that God originally wanted to accomplish.

00:06:53.060 So something satanic, something evil, something wicked, the demon possession of a young girl

00:06:59.560 taunting these evangelists, following them around, trying to get in their way.

00:07:05.020 It seemed like something that was a distraction from their original purpose.

00:07:08.520 They were actually going to do something good.

00:07:10.660 They were going to a place of prayer.

00:07:13.320 And yet it was the demon possession of this girl, something that Satan was obviously using,

00:07:18.440 not just to oppress her, not just also to tempt other people into sin.

00:07:23.160 We read in the Old Testament that God hates fortune telling and divination, and she was being used to

00:07:29.460 lure people in that way.

00:07:31.580 And also as a hindrance to Paul and Silas and the evangelists, this could have seemed like a victory

00:07:40.700 of Satan.

00:07:41.640 And yet God used, intended to use that very evil thing to then place Paul and Silas in jail,

00:07:49.120 where they rejoiced in the Lord, that then led to the salvation of the Philippian jailer and his

00:07:55.260 entire family.

00:07:57.040 God won. 0.90

00:07:58.580 He won in a situation that looked exclusively dark, exclusively desperate, exclusively hopeless.

00:08:05.280 It looked like Satan had control of this entire situation.

00:08:09.060 Look, this demon possessed girl led to these evangelists going to jail. 1.00

00:08:12.800 They weren't able to go to the house of prayer, the place of prayer that they wanted to go.

00:08:16.640 It looked like Satan had claimed victory, but these chains were no match for God.

00:08:23.860 This circumstance was no match for God.

00:08:26.520 He actually always intended from the very beginning for this exact plan to go into place and then

00:08:34.280 for the Philippian jailer to hear the word of the Lord and believe him and his entire household.

00:08:40.740 So let us remember that.

00:08:42.780 Let us remember in our own lives.

00:08:45.120 Let us remember when we look out the window and see the craziness and the chaos of the world,

00:08:49.780 every evil, wicked thing that we see, every moment in which it seems like Satan is winning,

00:08:56.000 God is using every single bit of it for his glory and our good, even in ways that we cannot yet see.

00:09:04.200 What is Romans 1 or Romans 8, 28 tells us that God is working all things together for the good of those who love him,

00:09:12.620 who are called according to his purpose.

00:09:16.180 His eternal plan of redemption is always going off without a hitch.

00:09:21.340 Nothing surprises him.

00:09:22.880 Nothing throws him off.

00:09:23.880 So whether it's your own personal trials or tribulations or hardships or inconveniences or seeming distractions or obstacles or hindrances,

00:09:33.400 or whether, again, we're looking at how the culture is going, how our country is going,

00:09:38.580 there's nothing that shocks God and nothing can thwart his plans.

00:09:42.940 He will use it all for the advancement of the gospel.

00:09:46.800 Nothing can stop him.

00:09:48.740 No law, no ruler, no change in values, no cultural shift, no supreme court decision.

00:09:55.720 There is nothing that can stand in his way.

00:09:58.680 He will claim ultimate victory.

00:10:00.580 So really, it is true what we say, what Elizabeth Elliot said that comforts me so much.

00:10:05.920 The only thing that you have to do today is the will of God.

00:10:09.380 The only thing that you have to worry about is doing the next right thing with the power of the Holy Spirit.

00:10:14.480 That is the freedom of the gospel.

00:10:16.800 That we no longer feel the anxiety and the weight of the world because we know who wins.

00:10:24.440 And all we can do is play our spirit-empowered part in all of it.

00:10:29.380 What a privilege it is that we are used as a vessel of the gospel.

00:10:33.200 God doesn't need us to accomplish his purposes.

00:10:35.900 He doesn't need our prayers to do what he wants to do.

00:10:39.480 He doesn't technically need our evangelism to do what he wants to do.

00:10:44.320 But he has ordained that these are the means by which he is going to bring souls to himself and advance the gospel.

00:10:51.240 And we are privileged to play a part in it.

00:10:53.960 And we have nothing to worry about.

00:10:56.500 Nothing to worry about.

00:10:57.900 So, thank God.

00:11:00.540 Thank God that while Satan does have power in this life, he is the prince of the power of the air.

00:11:07.540 We serve a God who is over all of it.

00:11:11.280 Who is bigger than all of it.

00:11:13.120 Who will accomplish his purposes no matter what.

00:11:16.660 All right.

00:11:17.660 I just wanted to start our day and start our week with that truth.

00:11:23.960 And now we'll go into the conversation with Riley Gaines, which is also encouraging in a different way.

00:11:30.680 It's a testimony in courage and in doing the next right thing, both the big and small things.

00:11:39.060 And I think that she's a really good example for us in that.

00:11:42.580 And thank you guys so much, by the way, just for I've gotten so many kind messages from you over the past couple of weeks.

00:11:48.480 And again, just reminders from y'all that you're praying for me and praying for the show.

00:11:52.400 Thank you so much.

00:11:53.160 I just appreciate I appreciate this community so greatly.

00:11:56.940 All right, we are going to talk to Riley Gaines.

00:12:12.600 Riley is a former University of Kentucky swimmer, 12-time All-American.

00:12:17.660 She competed against Will Thomas, who goes by Leah Thomas, decided when he was in college that he was going to pretend to be a woman.

00:12:26.040 And to compete against women in swimming.

00:12:30.260 He was a pretty good collegiate athlete, a pretty good swimmer before he decided to quote unquote transition.

00:12:35.900 He was somewhere, I think, maybe ranked around 400 among men.

00:12:39.800 And then he became between number one and number three when he decided that he was a woman.

00:12:44.800 It's literally almost laughable.

00:12:46.300 Like I had to stifle a laugh.

00:12:48.240 If it weren't so sad, it would be laughable that this is something that's even debated or allowed.

00:12:52.700 But a legitimately wonderful and amazing female swimmer, Riley Gaines, competed against him. 0.95

00:13:01.500 And you can see in this picture that we have up on YouTube as she is looking at him thinking,

00:13:08.120 what in the heck she actually tied with him?

00:13:10.000 As I'll talk to Riley about, which makes her pretty, pretty incredible at swimming.

00:13:14.420 She decided to then take her platform that she gained from competing against him and speaking out about having to change with this person in the locker room to fight for women's rights in sports and in sex exclusive spaces. 1.00

00:13:32.600 So let me tell you or let me show you the speech that she gave that went viral about competing against Will Thomas.

00:13:40.180 I know I don't speak for everyone.

00:13:42.600 It's impossible to speak for everyone.

00:13:44.740 But I can attest to the tears that were shed on that pool deck by these poor ninth and 17th place finishers who missed out on being named an All-American by one place.

00:13:52.420 And I can attest to the extreme discomfort in the locker room when you turn around and there is a male watching you undress while exposing himself.

00:14:00.960 I can attest to the anger and frustration from these girls who had worked so hard and sacrificed so much to get to this point. 0.53

00:14:07.640 And we'll get into the details about that.

00:14:11.460 But you'll notice she pointed out that there are women who missed out on these opportunities by one place because they had to compete against a man who has different aerobic, anaerobic capacity, muscle mass, bone density, a bigger heart, all of these things that make it much easier for him to compete against them.

00:14:29.040 And Riley, for her stance and for her curse, she didn't have to do this, but she took the steps to defend these girls who cannot speak up for themselves. 0.91

00:14:39.940 And she has gotten she has gotten a lot of a lot of vitriol.

00:14:45.180 Here she is at San Francisco State University after giving a speech about why it's important to protect women's sports. 0.95

00:14:59.040 Yeah, it's like what we talked about on Thursday.

00:15:26.960 We had to bleep out a lot of what was being said, psychopathy, narcissism, violence.

00:15:33.240 It's just kind of intrinsic, unfortunately, in this activist class of this ideology.

00:15:38.800 So she's taken a lot of hits for this. 1.00

00:15:40.980 I'm I just admire her a lot for taking a stand. 0.82

00:15:44.580 And I'm so glad that she is that she's here today.

00:15:48.600 And then we also she's also got a pretty special announcement to make at the end of this.

00:15:54.620 So without further ado, here is Riley Gaines.

00:15:56.960 Riley Gaines, thanks so much for being here and thanks for what you do.

00:16:04.960 Oh, my gosh.

00:16:05.520 Well, thank you for having me.

00:16:06.740 This is like surreal to me because I've always looked up to you.

00:16:09.880 So thank you.

00:16:10.780 Sweet.

00:16:11.120 OK, so you graduated college just last year.

00:16:13.560 I did.

00:16:14.000 You're just 23 years old.

00:16:16.520 And what what have the last couple of years been since you have become such an outspoken advocate for women's sports?

00:16:22.700 I'm sure that you didn't plan to become a public speaker or be on podcasts or anything like that.

00:16:27.840 So what has that been like?

00:16:29.720 My life has been really turned upside down.

00:16:32.720 I graduated last year with my degree in human health sciences and health law.

00:16:37.120 I scored in the top percentile on the dental admissions test and I was ready to go to dental school.

00:16:41.260 Yeah, that's what I had always planned for myself.

00:16:43.500 Actually, what I wanted to do was endodontics, which is like root canals.

00:16:46.720 I had gotten married.

00:16:48.020 Someone's got to do it.

00:16:49.440 Yeah, right.

00:16:50.260 I had gotten married.

00:16:51.640 It really would have been easy for me to kind of just ride off into the sunset and continue on with the plans that I had made for myself.

00:16:58.880 But after seeing and feeling the injustice of competing against the biological man and everything that came with it in terms of the locker room, in terms of the silencing that our institutions and universities were trying to to submiss our voices.

00:17:15.320 Seeing that I saw such a need for someone to stand up to it.

00:17:20.160 I didn't want it to be me.

00:17:21.220 This is never something I foresaw.

00:17:22.980 But I feel as if I was kind of thrusted into this position and I feel like it would be a disservice to not only myself, not even just female athletes, all women to not take a stance in the truth.

00:17:36.540 But your fellow competitors and I'm sure teammates really felt the same way that you did.

00:17:42.040 And so I just wonder what it was about you and the grit inside you that made you step out in a way that a lot of other female athletes did it. 1.00

00:17:52.980 So, like, why weren't you scared?

00:17:55.780 Like, why didn't you just say, you know what?

00:17:57.860 I know this is unjust.

00:17:59.020 Maybe I can tweet about it a couple of times.

00:18:00.960 But at the end of the day, this is my life.

00:18:03.600 I'm, you know, I'm going to become a dentist and do root canals.

00:18:07.480 That's much less controversial.

00:18:08.980 Like, what do you think it was?

00:18:10.380 Or was there a moment that you were like, I'm going to do the hard thing?

00:18:13.940 The moment that thrusted me into the position of taking a public stance was when after I tied with biological male Leah Thomas in the 200 free cell, we go behind the awards podium.

00:18:26.780 And keep in mind, this is the fastest meet in the world.

00:18:29.560 This is the most elite female swimmers in the country.

00:18:31.760 And so we go behind the awards podium and the NCAA official looks at both Thomas and myself after tying down to the hundredth of a second.

00:18:38.960 And he says, great job.

00:18:40.620 But we have one trophy and we're going to give that trophy to Leah because Leah has to have it for pictures. 0.97

00:18:46.500 And so that was the moment when I, of course, knew what was happening before this was wrong in terms of the unfair competition.

00:18:52.320 And again, the locker room, but when they reduce everything we'd worked our entire life for down to a photo op to validate the feelings and the identity of a male at the expense of our own.

00:19:02.580 Yeah, that's when I had had enough.

00:19:05.340 But in regards to really what is kind of motivating me to do this, I get called brave all the time.

00:19:12.900 I get called courageous all the time, but I don't feel brave.

00:19:15.720 Who I consider brave is our military, is our law enforcement, is first responders.

00:19:21.340 Those people are brave.

00:19:22.620 It's not brave to say men and women are different.

00:19:24.860 And so I kind of realized that the people who are calling me brave were ultimately just scared of different things.

00:19:32.220 What they're scared of is being labeled transphobic, homophobic.

00:19:36.700 I get called racist and I'm like, what does this even have to do with race?

00:19:39.280 It has nothing to do with race.

00:19:41.580 They're scared of this cancel culture that we live in.

00:19:44.020 And while that is scary, I'm more scared of what would happen if you don't stand for the truth.

00:19:50.780 I think ultimately the direction we're going as a nation is pretty terrifying.

00:19:56.080 We're actively denying truth.

00:19:58.320 We're changing the language that we use.

00:20:00.340 Again, the silencing aspect of it is really deeply rooted in Marxism.

00:20:05.500 You can open any history book and see how that turns out for any civilization.

00:20:08.900 And so I think that's kind of what really gives me the strength to stand firm, stand secure, and take the arrows because I know what I'm standing for.

00:20:18.300 I have common sense on my side.

00:20:19.780 Yeah, that's something that we say a lot on this show is sharing the arrows.

00:20:36.160 That when someone is unfairly maligned for something or someone is bullied for saying something that is so obviously true, like men and women are different, then rather than backing down and saying, oh, I'm so glad that that wasn't me.

00:20:48.560 That teaches me a lesson never to stand up.

00:20:50.860 Rather, courage can be contagious.

00:20:53.220 We should all stand up and say, you know what?

00:20:54.900 The arrows that Riley's getting, you can send them my way too, because this is true and therefore it's worth standing for.

00:21:01.340 I mean, I think it's just like a God-given grit and courage and determination in you that he just decided, okay, there's going to be someone who is going to stand up for this.

00:21:13.480 And I mean, that person, there's a lot of people, but that person right now is you.

00:21:18.480 And I just wonder if before all of this happened with Leah slash Will Thomas, if you considered yourself political or if you were involved in the culture wars at all, or were you just like head down, collegiate athlete, didn't care about that kind of stuff?

00:21:35.260 I've always been politically in tune.

00:21:37.560 I've always known what's happening.

00:21:39.160 I think it's important to keep up with this stuff.

00:21:41.060 And I've always had my beliefs and those were not beliefs I was going to falter from.

00:21:45.400 But that being said, it was in a sense kind of head down.

00:21:50.180 I mean, my sport was my entire life.

00:21:52.560 We trained six hours in the pool every single day.

00:21:55.300 We swam almost 10 miles every day.

00:21:57.340 So there wasn't much time to get involved in anything else.

00:22:00.580 And that wasn't my main concern at the time.

00:22:03.060 And now a year past being done swimming, I've taken a step back, of course, and I kind of realized I was naive to everything going on.

00:22:12.660 And I always considered myself in tune and I don't want to consider myself someone who is naive, but I kind of was with what's happening and how we've gotten to the point that we've gotten to.

00:22:22.360 Yeah.

00:22:22.960 Wow.

00:22:23.360 And had you been swimming like from little, little, like competitively?

00:22:27.880 I started swimming when I was four, just your typical summer swim that a lot of kids do.

00:22:32.380 But then by the time I turned eight, so in second grade, that's when I started swimming year round.

00:22:37.760 So really from eight to 18, you practice every day, two hours a day.

00:22:43.080 And then, of course, middle school, high school, you go to practice before school, then you go to school and then you go back to practice.

00:22:48.860 And like I said, in college, you're swimming six hours a day, three of those hours being before 8 a.m.

00:22:53.720 And was it ever a question growing up, middle school or high school, about whether male competitions and female competitions were different when it came to swimming?

00:23:04.040 Or was it always just, yeah, obviously, boys and girls are going to be separated?

00:23:07.720 It was obvious.

00:23:08.900 I think when you're at that 12-year-old age range, that's when you see the boys start to really set themselves apart.

00:23:18.060 Puberty.

00:23:18.360 Right, and I think that's across the board in most sports, that's what you'll see.

00:23:23.360 So we were relatively comparable, 10 years old, 11, 12.

00:23:28.720 But by the time you're 13, 14, I mean, the boys blow the girls out of the water.

00:23:33.660 Testosterone levels are pretty much the same until boys go through puberty.

00:23:38.660 And then, I mean, obviously, boys skyrockets.

00:23:41.380 And that's irreversible, which is exactly why someone like Leah slash Will Thomas is so unfair. 0.95

00:23:46.660 It doesn't matter how many hormones he goes on, if he grows out his hair, if he wears a skirt.

00:23:50.460 It doesn't matter.

00:23:51.740 At the end of the day, he's gone through male puberty.

00:23:54.420 And I do think, though, I mean, you tied with him.

00:23:56.760 That's, like, legit.

00:23:57.820 That means, like, you're really, really good.

00:24:01.020 Take me back to the moment, because you have described this.

00:24:03.640 I saw a snippet of it from another podcast when, I mean, that very awkward and I'm sure in some ways traumatizing moment, like when you were changing in the locker room.

00:24:12.880 Absolutely.

00:24:13.800 You got a man there, which I'm sure in all of your athletic experience, like, that had, you never seen that before in the locker room.

00:24:21.820 Never.

00:24:22.340 And traumatic is a good word for it.

00:24:25.400 We were not forewarned we'd be sharing a locker room.

00:24:28.060 No one told us that we would be forced to do such.

00:24:30.740 The only time we became aware of this was when we were in the locker room and Leah Thomas, a 6'4", 22-year-old man, walks in, drops his clothes, and is fully intact with and exposing male genitalia while we're simultaneously undressing.

00:24:45.600 Of course, it feels like belittlement. 0.89

00:24:47.740 It feels like humiliation.

00:24:50.020 Humiliation.

00:24:50.700 It's felt like betrayal.

00:24:52.620 The people who were supposed to be protecting us failed miserably.

00:24:56.580 And at the time, this is alleged from his teammates, he was still active with women.

00:25:03.900 So to be in a locker room with a man who is attracted to women and no one said anything about it, no one did anything about it.

00:25:12.680 Actually, when we did say something about it, we were told that we were wrong for feeling uncomfortable.

00:25:17.420 How could you not see this as a woman? 0.95

00:25:18.880 You know, you're not being very kind and you're sure as heck not being inclusive and you have to be those things.

00:25:25.400 So we were gaslit and emotionally blackmailed into staying silent and to feeling wrong for feeling uncomfortable in that space.

00:25:34.200 Accepting what was considered just a few years ago sexual harassment as normal.

00:25:41.020 emotional and something that you should just be silent about.

00:25:45.240 Wow.

00:25:45.580 I mean, on the heels of also just like the Me Too movement.

00:25:48.660 It's pretty incredible how quickly we went from, yeah, raise your voice to be quiet.

00:25:53.000 Absolutely.

00:25:53.680 I think the irony behind it all is almost hysterical.

00:25:58.020 It really is comical seeing how, of course, the left was once a party that embraced women's rights, embraced empowering and recognizing and celebrating women based off of their own uniqueness.

00:26:09.440 And now we're seeing the narrative totally flipped, even in regards to Title IX.

00:26:15.000 Yeah.

00:26:15.280 This is the same party who once fought for Title IX.

00:26:18.160 And now the Biden administration is actively working to undermine that entire fight by changing the definition, changing or rewriting it to where it's no longer preventing discrimination on the basis of sex.

00:26:30.000 It's preventing discrimination on the basis of gender identity.

00:26:32.740 So what this means is men can join sororities, which is already happening.

00:26:35.720 It's happening at University of Wyoming, where these girls are pursuing a lawsuit and what they've I've talked to them at great lengths as well.

00:26:42.300 And what they're enduring is terrible.

00:26:44.460 Yeah.

00:26:44.660 It's it's, again, humiliating.

00:26:46.500 It's traumatic.

00:26:47.280 Sexual harassment.

00:26:48.540 I mean, yeah, boys, obviously, they have some kind of, you know, sexual fantasy.

00:26:53.260 And they're pretending to be girls going to these sorority houses, wanting to invite themselves to the sleepovers, exposing themselves. 0.58

00:26:59.000 And these girls are I'm not saying in Wyoming, but several across the country. 0.93

00:27:03.100 They're just being told to be quiet.

00:27:04.660 Absolutely.

00:27:05.240 Well, even the girls in Wyoming.

00:27:06.580 That's absolutely what they face when they put their lawsuit forward and they wanted to remain anonymous.

00:27:11.040 Their judge said, no, if this is something you really want to take on, you don't get the option to remain anonymous.

00:27:16.180 You have to put your name on here and face the repercussions of putting your name on here.

00:27:20.100 Wow.

00:27:20.320 So these girls, I mean, that's hard for anyone to do, especially when you see what happens to someone like me when I go to San Francisco State University and speak about something, again, that should not be controversial.

00:27:30.980 It's not controversial.

00:27:32.520 Explaining my experience, what we face in the locker room, the silencing piece and just how men and women are different.

00:27:39.140 That's not something that should require courage to say.

00:27:41.940 And it's not something that should be controversial.

00:27:43.440 No, and we played that clip before you came on of San Francisco State and just the mob, the assaults, the absolute disgusting harassment that you endured simply for saying that men and women are different.

00:27:59.500 And like you said, explaining your lived experience, which we are told is so important to be able to explain our lived experience and to have empathy in all these things.

00:28:09.620 The very same people wielding those words and weaponizing those words.

00:28:12.740 They don't mean them when it comes to people that they disagree with.

00:28:16.260 What does your husband think about this?

00:28:18.320 I mean, I'm sure like you were dating your husband at the time that the whole Will Leah Thomas thing happened.

00:28:23.020 I'm sure as a man, he's like, oh, my gosh.

00:28:25.460 And then now the abuse that you endure.

00:28:28.200 Absolutely.

00:28:28.920 How does he feel?

00:28:29.860 I remember, again, I had no idea we would be sharing a changing space with Thomas.

00:28:34.920 And so when we actually saw that firsthand, I immediately called my husband and I said, and he we weren't married at the time.

00:28:44.200 And I said, we had to share a locker room with this man.

00:28:48.280 I called my dad and my dad.

00:28:50.120 He's a former NFL football player.

00:28:52.000 He's a very big guy.

00:28:54.480 And when I told him the same thing, he said, Riley, I'm coming down there and I'm going to handle this myself.

00:29:00.620 Of course.

00:29:01.140 And I said, Dad, we already have one man in the locker room.

00:29:03.280 We don't need to.

00:29:05.440 But from their eyes, this is hard for them to deal with, especially seeing kind of the backlash that I received now.

00:29:14.100 I'm just fortunate.

00:29:15.080 I have so much support.

00:29:17.920 Such a great foundation.

00:29:19.140 I rely heavily on my faith, my family, my friends to really lean on.

00:29:24.680 And they're my rock.

00:29:25.480 So, yeah.

00:29:27.240 And as you're thinking, I'm sure you're thinking about, you know, future kids and things and your kids, I'm sure, will be very athletic.

00:29:33.560 Those genes will be passed down.

00:29:35.540 If you have girls who want to go into any sport and knowing that this is going to be a conflict, like how are you going to handle that?

00:29:42.860 That's why I'm fighting this.

00:29:45.300 So, my daughter doesn't have to.

00:29:47.260 My little sister, who's the Tennessee state champion for gymnastics, so she doesn't have to go through this.

00:29:52.740 I can't imagine being in the position that I'm in, facing what we face, seeing what we saw, having the testimony that I have in regards to the trophy and how that was handled and not fighting for them.

00:30:06.680 Because it's not about me.

00:30:08.020 I'm done playing sports.

00:30:09.720 You couldn't pay me to get back in a pool right now.

00:30:11.720 I'd probably sink.

00:30:13.280 So, it's not about me.

00:30:15.080 It's about that next generation.

00:30:17.240 How many girls have to get injured before someone does something? 1.00

00:30:20.740 How many girls have to be exploited in a locker room? 1.00

00:30:22.960 How many girls have to be asked to kindly smile and step aside and allow these men onto our podiums and onto our teams, taking our scholarships and our trophies, our accolades?

00:30:34.080 That's why I'm fighting this.

00:30:35.800 Absolutely.

00:30:36.200 And what do you encourage female athletes to do right now? 0.99

00:30:52.880 I think you've called for them to stop competing, right?

00:30:57.160 Right.

00:30:57.540 In protest.

00:30:58.180 Yeah, this was something that, for the longest time, I thought, no, girls should not boycott. 0.92

00:31:03.400 We shouldn't have to give up anything.

00:31:04.900 We shouldn't have to sacrifice a thing.

00:31:06.580 There is no compromise to be made.

00:31:08.160 Girls should not have to boycott.

00:31:09.920 But then, when this bill was introduced in the U.S. House, and all 203 Democrats voted in opposition of protecting women and girls,

00:31:21.140 that's when I realized legislation is not going to be the change that is necessary to, well, it's not going to be fast enough.

00:31:30.140 It's going to have to be something that we can do on our end to stop this, to make change.

00:31:35.760 And, of course, that would require sacrifices being made.

00:31:39.160 And I do hate that.

00:31:40.380 I hate that girls have to give up anything. 1.00

00:31:42.300 But, ultimately, boycotts are effective.

00:31:45.340 We've seen it in the past.

00:31:46.640 They work.

00:31:47.140 Like, we're seeing it in England right now in regards to cycling.

00:31:50.800 They have men who are cycling, and these women have said no.

00:31:53.560 And changes are being made.

00:31:55.280 And that's what we have to do.

00:31:56.620 And I know it's easier said than done.

00:31:58.320 But that's ultimately how change can be made at a faster pace.

00:32:03.020 You know, I think I agree with you, although I do empathize with that.

00:32:06.500 Like, well, why should they work so hard for this?

00:32:09.220 And you don't get these years back.

00:32:10.880 If you boycott while you're in college, you know, you don't get to compete again.

00:32:15.000 But this is bigger.

00:32:16.060 Like, it is bigger than the college experience.

00:32:18.620 And, ultimately, sadly, like, these organizations, these colleges, they may not listen to red or blue, but they listen to green.

00:32:25.220 Absolutely.

00:32:25.940 And if they're not making money because women are competing, I would think that that would probably be a problem. 1.00

00:32:31.480 Absolutely.

00:32:32.160 You have to hit them where it hurts. 0.63

00:32:33.980 That being said, I think legal action is something that could take place.

00:32:38.520 Actually, I'm certain it could because they explicitly violated Title IX.

00:32:42.440 We were blatantly discriminated on the basis of sex.

00:32:44.980 But they know it's a burden to sue.

00:32:47.820 They know, girls my age, we don't have the funds. 0.98

00:32:51.360 We don't have the means.

00:32:52.180 We don't have the time to pursue that.

00:32:55.440 But that's something that I think is necessary.

00:32:57.700 And that's something that I'm going to be working on on my end.

00:33:00.400 Because I do think you're exactly right.

00:33:02.300 They listen to the grain.

00:33:03.560 Yeah.

00:33:04.160 Okay.

00:33:04.580 Final word of encouragement to parents of daughters and to the high school and college girls who are listening to this.

00:33:11.420 Maybe they're athletes.

00:33:12.460 Maybe they're not.

00:33:13.440 But they want to speak up for this.

00:33:15.580 But there's a lot of pressure.

00:33:16.920 It's hard when you're at school.

00:33:18.080 The bullying, the ostracizing that goes on.

00:33:23.040 But what would you say to them?

00:33:25.900 I think my advice first to parents is to be willing to defend your daughters.

00:33:31.640 Be willing to teach your sons masculinity.

00:33:34.000 These are things we've kind of veered so far from.

00:33:37.080 And I understand, especially when you work a corporate job, you don't want to ruffle feathers or step on toes.

00:33:41.680 But it really is necessary.

00:33:44.480 My message to female athletes, I get messages all the time from girls, from parents who tell me, you know, my daughter's quitting her sport because she's discouraged.

00:33:54.600 You know, she plays on her high school basketball team and they're going against men or they have men on their team. 1.00

00:33:59.180 And she just doesn't want to play anymore.

00:34:02.040 My advice is to not get discouraged.

00:34:04.300 We can't cave.

00:34:05.640 We can't let them have these wins.

00:34:07.520 We have to play.

00:34:08.740 We have to stand up.

00:34:09.740 But I'll say from my personal experience, I was terrified of getting backlash.

00:34:15.640 I was terrified of being labeled anything because I know deep in my heart I have no hate for anyone.

00:34:20.240 I know that's about myself.

00:34:22.180 And so I was terrified of being labeled as someone who's hateful.

00:34:26.260 But I've realized the people who throw these labels on you, it just speaks more about their own insecurities.

00:34:33.940 It speaks more about them than it does about you.

00:34:36.260 So, again, this past year, the attacks I get, the arrows I receive, it's personal attacks.

00:34:43.480 It's nothing that dissuades from my argument.

00:34:46.020 It's something such as, you know, maybe you should have just trained harder and swam faster.

00:34:50.120 I'm like, genius idea.

00:34:51.240 I never thought of that.

00:34:52.580 They'll say things such as, you know, your hair looks like extensions, which this is my real hair.

00:34:56.480 It's not extensions.

00:34:57.360 You have beautiful hair.

00:34:58.060 So I've just realized that these are people who are insecure with themselves and they will resort to anything to try to silence you.

00:35:06.460 But they can't dissuade from your argument.

00:35:08.060 And it is not bad for your brand to defend women.

00:35:10.920 Yeah, I saw Thomas on a podcast recently and he and the other person were talking about how people like us, you know, that they would label TERFs or whatever, are the ones who were really dealing with like deep seated insecurity ourselves.

00:35:27.060 And, of course, as always, it's projection.

00:35:29.460 I think you're right.

00:35:30.340 Of course, you're not secure in your identity.

00:35:32.320 No, it's not real.

00:35:33.300 Right.

00:35:33.800 And I can guarantee I am secure with myself.

00:35:38.320 I'm secure because of my faith.

00:35:40.680 I that's again, that's something I rely heavily on.

00:35:44.320 I think before anything, we should try to live Christlike lives.

00:35:48.380 Our God made man and woman.

00:35:50.480 Our God does not make make mistakes.

00:35:52.200 And of course, he's a God of love, no doubt.

00:35:54.460 But he's a God who hates sin.

00:35:56.020 And so that's something that I keep on my chest to remember.

00:36:00.880 Well, thank you so much, Riley.

00:36:02.060 I really appreciate it.

00:36:02.940 I just encourage everyone to pray for her, support her, share her arrows.

00:36:07.620 And courage is contagious and your courage is contagious.

00:36:10.300 So thank you so much.

00:36:11.500 Thank you.

00:36:12.000 Thank you.

00:36:12.420 Thank you.

00:36:24.740 All right.

00:36:25.780 So this is a little bit different.

00:36:27.900 I had Riley in studio with me.

00:36:30.040 And then we actually heard a few days later that she wanted to come back and make an announcement.

00:36:35.460 She wasn't actually able to be here in person.

00:36:37.860 And so we recorded a remote interview with her so she could make a very special announcement on this show.

00:36:45.680 She's going to tell us something about Title IX.

00:36:48.320 And I will let her explain what that news is.

00:36:50.380 But just to give a little context, because we didn't we weren't able to get into this in our original interview.

00:36:55.600 Let me tell you about the Biden Education Department's proposed changes to Title IX that Riley and others have been pushing back against.

00:37:03.880 So in April, the Biden administration announced that it has some new proposed amendments to Title IX that would prohibit schools that would prohibit schools receiving federal funds from enforcing bans on males competing in female sports.

00:37:19.440 So basically, if you had a school that received federal funds that says, sorry, only women can play in women's sports, only girls can play in girls sports, they would no longer receive those federal funds.

00:37:31.940 Schools would be prohibited from adopting or applying a one size fits all.

00:37:35.280 That's what they call it.

00:37:35.940 Policy that categorically bans so-called transgender students from participating on sports teams consistent with their so-called gender identity. 0.95

00:37:43.440 This is all absolutely ridiculous, considering that bodies compete, not identities.

00:37:49.780 Schools covered by the proposed rule would be permitted to draft their own policies, limiting athletic participation based on a set of sex related criteria unique to their community.

00:38:01.800 They must take into account each sport level of competition and greater education level.

00:38:06.520 The department said any restriction should be substantially related to the achievement of an important educational objective and designed to minimize harms to transgender students, not minimize harms to women, minimize harms to men who think that they're women.

00:38:19.160 Because no one's worried, by the way, about girls who want to compete on boys sports teams.

00:38:23.780 That's happening very, very, very rarely.

00:38:26.740 I think we obviously know why.

00:38:28.120 It would be really difficult for even a girl on testosterone and puberty blockers to compete against boys.

00:38:33.740 Because testosterone levels are just so disparate after puberty.

00:38:38.380 We're talking about boys who want to go into the locker room with girls. 0.53

00:38:41.960 We're talking about boys who want to expose themselves to girls.

00:38:44.420 We're talking about boys who want to be able to push over girls.

00:38:47.860 That's what we're talking about here.

00:38:49.840 This is what the Biden administration is proposing we protect.

00:38:55.720 It is expected that transgender elementary school students will generally be able to participate on sports teams consistent with their gender identity, while older students are expected to be subjected to sex-related criteria that limit their participation in sports.

00:39:09.340 There's no such thing as any of this. 0.98

00:39:12.000 This is all absolutely ridiculous. 0.99

00:39:14.400 And Riley Gaines knows that it's ridiculous. 0.97

00:39:16.360 That's why she's pushed back against it, because this will mean the elimination of women's sports. 1.00

00:39:20.820 Period.

00:39:21.100 And so she's going to tell us a little bit about the development of this as she's pushed back.

00:39:25.960 What has the response been?

00:39:28.040 There is some actually good news in this.

00:39:30.000 And then she's also got a very special announcement, even after that, that she wanted to come on this show and announce.

00:39:35.500 So here again is Riley Gaines.

00:39:42.220 Riley, OK, thanks so much for coming back.

00:39:45.400 Tell us about this announcement that you have.

00:39:48.940 Absolutely.

00:39:49.340 First and foremost, I want to say to the people who commented on this Title IX public comment period that the Biden administration put forward, we did a phenomenal job because they have now delayed their implementation of changing Title IX, which is great news.

00:40:06.700 That being said, we have an administration in the White House right now who does want to rid women and girls of opportunities, not just in sports, but women and girls in general.

00:40:16.280 They're really, with aggression proceeding with this erasure, the systemic erasure of woman and womanhood and what it means to be a woman.

00:40:26.340 As we've also seen, this presidential election in 2024, it's gearing up, it's gaining traction, it's crucial to get behind a Republican candidate who will support these cultural issues.

00:40:41.000 And that is why I am so excited to announce that I am endorsing Governor DeSantis for president.

00:40:47.180 I really first became active in politics because of this assault on women's sports, especially. 1.00

00:40:53.420 That being said, I followed Governor DeSantis' success in Florida, especially in what he's done there and how well he has succeeded and how well it's resonated with his constituents there.

00:41:04.080 I feel like our elected leaders, they've totally abandoned us until Ron DeSantis.

00:41:11.680 I'm thrilled we have conversed a lot behind these issues, and I know that he will do a phenomenal job in putting the right foot forward in protecting women and girls and protecting children.

00:41:22.400 That's what this whole movement is about.

00:41:26.180 And so I'm thrilled to say that.

00:41:27.980 I'm thrilled as things, again, start to gain this traction.

00:41:31.100 And I couldn't be more grateful to work alongside them.

00:41:34.480 That's awesome.

00:41:35.120 Well, thank you so much for announcing that on this show.

00:41:38.560 Tell us just a little bit more about what makes you so confident among the other candidates that Ron DeSantis is going to be the one to champion this really important issue of protecting the rights and the safety and the fairness of women and girls.

00:41:53.240 Absolutely.

00:41:53.680 I think as we've seen, like I mentioned, in Florida, this is just who the governor is.

00:42:00.540 He's taken on the political establishment.

00:42:02.360 He's taken on these woke corporations.

00:42:05.260 He's taken on the media.

00:42:06.780 And he's won.

00:42:07.780 He's done a phenomenal job.

00:42:09.500 The way his presence has been made.

00:42:12.780 He is this leader who makes fighting this gender ideology movement really a litmus test for conservatives across the country.

00:42:19.620 And that being said, I think these cultural issues that we're seeing in regards to this gender ideology propaganda, whether that's sports, whether that's through corporations, as we're seeing in Target and Bud Light and all kinds of others, whether that's in the education system, really just seeing how he's handled this.

00:42:38.280 I think these are the issues.

00:42:39.900 Truthfully, I think they're spiritual warfare and seeing how he's tackled them, seeing how he's handled them really with no he's really drawn the line.

00:42:47.920 And I've yet to see another candidate do so such as he has.

00:42:50.660 Therefore, I think he's absolutely entirely the best option to handle these.

00:42:56.300 Yeah.

00:42:56.560 Back in 2021, the governor signed SB 1028, which was the Fairness in Women's Sports Act, of course, got a lot of pushback.

00:43:05.060 But just protecting female sports for what they should be, which is exclusively female. 1.00

00:43:10.620 And so having that common sense position and something that is so important, as you said, not just for women, but especially for children.

00:43:18.720 I agree with you.

00:43:19.780 I'm so glad that we have someone who is championing that.

00:43:22.700 So thank you so much for your thoughts.

00:43:24.420 Thank you for how you've been out there on the front lines in this issue at much cost to you.

00:43:28.480 I really appreciate it.

00:43:30.020 Thanks for taking the time to come on.

00:43:32.780 Absolutely.

00:43:33.140 Thank you so much.

00:43:35.060 Thank you.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - June 05, 2023

Ep 816 ｜ Reliving the Trauma of Sharing a Locker Room with 'Lia' Thomas ｜ Guest： Riley Gaines

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