Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 824 ｜ 'Shiny, Happy People'： The Real Problems with Duggar Theology

00:00:00.980 Shiny Happy People is a newly released documentary about the Duggars and about their theology.

00:00:08.300 I have a lot of thoughts, and so does producer Brie, about this documentary.

00:00:12.540 Some of the things that we agree with, some of the things that we thought were absurd,

00:00:17.380 but we'll focus a lot of our time on the biblical problems with what is presented as Duggar

00:00:24.200 theology and some of the consequences that it has.

00:00:27.100 Before we get into that episode, I've got two things to tell you.

00:00:31.180 Number one, we've got these really cute shirts that are available online.

00:00:36.260 There are June shirts, our No Way It Covenant shirts, and also we've got our Rainbow Belongs

00:00:42.420 to God shirts that are available on AllieMerch.com.

00:00:46.180 Check that out.

00:00:46.700 Also, if you love this podcast, if you appreciate this podcast, will you please leave a five-star

00:00:51.320 review, especially on Apple Podcasts?

00:00:53.140 You can also leave one on Spotify.

00:00:55.080 Subscribe on YouTube if you haven't already.

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00:01:02.620 All right.

00:01:02.900 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:01:05.560 Go to GoodRanchers.com.

00:01:06.980 Use code Allie at checkout. 1.00

00:01:08.340 That's GoodRanchers.com.

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00:01:19.380 Hey, guys.

00:01:20.200 Welcome to Relatable.

00:01:21.300 Happy Monday.

00:01:21.880 Hope everyone had a wonderful weekend, a wonderful Father's Day weekend specifically.

00:01:27.560 And I just wanted to take a moment to say, Related Bros, we really appreciate you.

00:01:33.300 I know we talk a lot about the Related Gals, Related Bells still have not decided what we

00:01:39.340 are going to call the women who watch and listen to Relatable.

00:01:43.740 Related Bros just rolls off the tongue.

00:01:45.380 It's so easy to say.

00:01:47.260 I just wanted to say that we appreciate you, especially those of you who are dads.

00:01:53.380 I know we talk about this show being a female-centric show, which it is simply because I'm a female

00:01:59.060 host.

00:01:59.560 And we talk about a lot of things that affect motherhood and women specifically.

00:02:03.760 But I know that there are some very supportive and very consistent Related Bros out there who

00:02:12.700 help keep the show alive.

00:02:14.720 And you give me feedback and encouragement, and I appreciate that so much.

00:02:18.860 And a special shout out to the Related Bros who are dads.

00:02:22.440 You are valued.

00:02:23.680 You are needed.

00:02:24.420 I hope that you were shown that appreciation over the weekend.

00:02:28.060 There is an underappreciation and has been, there has been an underappreciation for dads

00:02:33.760 for a very, very long time in the United States. 0.99

00:02:36.960 I mean, going back decades, just seeing the fumbling, dumb, weak, compliant, passive dad 0.99

00:02:44.060 always hoisted up in every sitcom. 0.99

00:02:48.020 And then, of course, the destructive effects of something like the family diversity theory, 0.57

00:02:53.880 which Professor Brad Wilcox has explained on our show before, this idea that kids don't

00:02:59.500 really need a mom and a dad.

00:03:01.360 They just need some kind of love coming from some kind of adults.

00:03:05.620 And then kids will turn out fine.

00:03:07.580 The outcomes will all kind of be comparable if they're raised by two moms or two dads or

00:03:12.700 a polycule or one mom or one dad.

00:03:16.460 The fact of the matter is, is that's not true.

00:03:18.720 Statistics don't show that at all.

00:03:20.340 Is that kids are, they develop the best.

00:03:24.900 They have the most healthy upbringing, generally, statistically, when they are raised by their

00:03:31.100 own mother and father.

00:03:32.580 That's not to denigrate, certainly adoption.

00:03:35.000 That's not to say that single moms or single dads don't do a great job. 1.00

00:03:39.400 That's not to say that different kinds of parents don't absolutely love their kids or

00:03:43.200 that kids can never turn out to be awesome, responsible, productive citizens and Christians 1.00

00:03:47.900 if they were not raised by their own mother and father.

00:03:51.740 But the statistics are so overwhelmingly consistent and clear that kids are, they thrive the most

00:03:59.540 when they're raised by a present married mother and father.

00:04:07.240 And so we should be doing everything that we can to encourage that, to promote that.

00:04:11.500 And it's especially true when it comes to present dads.

00:04:15.660 There is a consequence to fatherlessness that simply doesn't show up in the same way if you're

00:04:21.840 looking at motherlessness.

00:04:23.220 Motherlessness is still, by the way, statistically rare.

00:04:26.620 Of course, now with gay couples using surrogates and egg buying and things like that, it's more 1.00

00:04:33.240 prevalent than it used to be, but it's a historical anomaly.

00:04:36.220 Moms tend to stick around more than dads do. 1.00

00:04:39.480 And so fatherlessness, we have a lot of data on fatherlessness, and we see that it leads

00:04:44.340 to greater chances of teen delinquency, teen pregnancy, depression, anxiety, failing your

00:04:49.860 classes, not going to school, not graduating, staying stuck in poverty, all kinds of social

00:04:57.240 ills, all kinds of personal failures and personal struggles come from not having present dads at

00:05:07.640 home, not having present dads in communities.

00:05:10.200 And so the fact that our government leaders not only don't focus on that, but pretend like

00:05:17.460 that's not one of the most, if not the most pervasive problems in the United States, it's

00:05:24.740 a travesty.

00:05:25.860 And I also think it's intentional.

00:05:27.440 I think it's intentional.

00:05:28.280 I think that a present dad is one of the greatest barriers between families, between individuals

00:05:35.640 and complete government control.

00:05:39.600 And so the fewer dads that you have to depend on for protection and provision and for guidance,

00:05:47.760 the easier it is for the government to come in and be your daddy.

00:05:52.640 And there's also a lot of interesting data on how dads influence their families to go

00:06:01.500 to church.

00:06:02.440 If a mom goes to church, I think it's like, I don't know, a 60% chance or something like

00:06:07.480 that, that the rest of the family will go to church, that children will go to church.

00:06:10.760 But if dad is the one leading the way, going to church, this is by focus on the family.

00:06:15.660 There's like a 93% chance that everyone is going to go to church with him every Sunday.

00:06:20.860 There's something different about men.

00:06:22.740 There's something different about dads.

00:06:24.400 There's something different about male leadership.

00:06:26.840 You guys know how unique and wonderful I think women are, and I believe moms are.

00:06:31.780 God has gifted us in very special ways, but there's something unique about dads that moms

00:06:37.080 don't and simply cannot bring to the table.

00:06:40.160 It's so interesting how many people on the right or the left will accept the idea that, or

00:06:46.920 the truth, that men can't become women.

00:06:49.860 They'll say, yeah, you know, we believe in biological sex. 0.87

00:06:53.420 Of course, a man can't become a woman. 1.00

00:06:55.120 A woman can't become a man. 1.00

00:06:56.600 Increasingly, we're seeing people accept the reality of the gender binary since that's

00:07:02.200 been challenged so fiercely over the past years.

00:07:05.420 But some of those same people, some of those same people will accept the equally absurd notion

00:07:11.960 that men and women are interchangeable when it comes to marriage and parenting.

00:07:16.400 Because they're willing to be called transphobic, but they don't want to be called homophobic.

00:07:21.460 They're like, oh, no, let's just go back to tradition when we just had a regular rainbow 1.00

00:07:25.580 flag and not the rainbow flag with the added colors.

00:07:28.700 They think you can be LGB without the T or whatever the saying is.

00:07:33.880 But the fact is, it's equally absurd and it's equally destructive to say that having two

00:07:40.360 dads or having two moms is the same thing as having a mom and a dad.

00:07:46.180 It's just not true.

00:07:47.280 Men and women are not interchangeable.

00:07:48.940 A man can't become a woman. 1.00

00:07:50.500 A woman can't become a man because men and women are different. 1.00

00:07:54.080 Not just biologically, but we bring different things to the table.

00:07:57.700 We bring different things to parenting.

00:07:59.920 We bring different things to our jobs.

00:08:01.800 We bring different things to our families, to communities.

00:08:06.080 They're not replaceable.

00:08:07.220 They're not interchangeable.

00:08:08.720 Kids need a mom and a dad. 0.99

00:08:10.180 Every policy, every effort, every bit of energy that we have should be put toward upholding and

00:08:15.920 securing the traditional natural family.

00:08:20.420 The wedding of a mom and a dad and the creation of children because that's best for children.

00:08:25.560 And therefore, that's best for our future.

00:08:27.660 Therefore, that is best for society.

00:08:30.440 It's almost like God knew what he was doing.

00:08:32.600 And the first chapter of Genesis, when he made us male and female, when he created the

00:08:36.740 first marriage, when he created the first family, it's almost like he knew what would be best for

00:08:43.140 humanity.

00:08:43.560 He knew what would be best for children.

00:08:45.620 He knew what would be best for nations, for societies.

00:08:48.540 And so he created this wonderful institution of marriage and family, this life-giving institution

00:08:55.520 of marriage between a man and a woman to keep and make and protect their children.

00:09:01.400 So science is always trying to catch up to God.

00:09:04.840 And I actually do see some positive indications towards the populace recognizing that.

00:09:12.700 So praise God.

00:09:13.600 Let's continue to push for what is good and right and true and that.

00:09:16.820 And thank you again, dads.

00:09:18.080 Thank you again, Related Bros, who are dads, just for showing up, for being present, for working

00:09:23.140 hard, for doing so much unseen and unsung work that holds it all together.

00:09:29.220 I appreciate my own husband, whom I am.

00:09:32.160 I'm so thankful that he is an excellent and loving and present dad.

00:09:35.640 I'm so thankful for my own dad, who continues today to help me grow into the woman that God

00:09:43.560 has called me to be in so many different ways, through mentorship, through love, through support.

00:09:48.280 I mean, he really is one of my biggest fans and he has helped me navigate the crazy waters

00:09:54.360 of life so well.

00:09:55.980 And it's hard for me to even articulate how vital he is and how vital he has been in the

00:10:04.640 formation of me as a person, spiritually, mentally, emotionally.

00:10:09.420 I mean, gosh, dads are so incredibly crucial to the healthy formation of the individual,

00:10:15.820 families and community.

00:10:16.700 So thank you, dads, and happy Father's Day.

00:10:19.640 All right.

00:10:20.200 Speaking of families and speaking of patriarchs, maybe we're finally going to talk about this

00:10:27.520 documentary that was on Amazon Prime, Shiny Happy People, which is about the Duggars and

00:10:32.340 Duggar theology.

00:10:33.180 We're going to get into the good, the bad and the ugly, what the mainstream criticism

00:10:36.980 of the Duggars is.

00:10:39.540 And then what I think is actual biblical criticism of the kinds of doctrines that were pushed by

00:10:44.740 families like the Duggars and pushed by the community that they were a part of. 0.78

00:10:49.340 Producer Bree is going to be brought in because she also watched this series on Amazon Prime.

00:10:56.760 And we're going to talk about it a little bit and get into some analysis of it and what I agree

00:11:04.780 about when it comes, what I agree with when it comes to the criticism, what I don't necessarily 0.76

00:11:09.660 agree with, what I think is hypocritical, what I thought was just plain ridiculous in this documentary.

00:11:14.840 Okay, Shiny Happy People, a documentary about the Duggars and about IBLP. 0.99

00:11:36.320 IBLP is the Institute of Biblical Life Principles.

00:11:41.100 Is it biblical life principles or basic life principles?

00:11:43.740 Basic life principles.

00:11:45.640 All right.

00:11:46.460 And this was an institute that was started by Bill Gothard.

00:11:52.120 And it was basically his interpretation of how scripture should apply to our lives in the

00:11:59.380 structure and in the leadership of the family.

00:12:02.940 And not just that, but really society at large.

00:12:05.580 There's a strong emphasis on male leadership, on female submission, on strict discipline.

00:12:11.480 And I think very strange discipline when it comes to ensuring your children's obedience.

00:12:18.820 And what we saw throughout this documentary is that this structure was extremely legalistic

00:12:24.560 in nature.

00:12:25.420 He wasn't using proper biblical exegesis or even always referring to scripture when he was

00:12:31.260 laying out these rules for families and rules for life.

00:12:35.000 He simply would sometimes say, well, scripture said, or the Bible says, or this is how God

00:12:41.080 set it up without actually properly looking into the text, interpreting the text and applying

00:12:46.920 the text, which really created a disconnect between the structure of IBLP and scripture, but

00:12:54.900 also the gospel as a whole.

00:12:56.860 It created a legalistic mechanism for people to look like they are righteous and to look

00:13:03.640 like they are doing good without actually understanding the gospel of grace.

00:13:09.880 And in any kind of legalistic structure that emphasizes external obedience rather than inward

00:13:16.900 regeneration, you are going to set yourself up or set people up for the possibility of abuse

00:13:24.700 and of manipulation of the adherence to these kinds of principles in the same way that the

00:13:33.920 Pharisees were able to oppress and in some ways abuse the rest of the Jewish people by setting 1.00

00:13:41.560 up these lofty rules that really only they could reach and then telling people you're never

00:13:47.720 going to be good enough and just instilling this kind of fear-based obedience in people.

00:13:53.460 So the adherence to any kind of legalistic structure like IBLP are going to be vulnerable

00:14:02.660 to this kind of fear-based manipulation and oppression and then even

00:14:10.900 abuse because they are so inundated with fear and intimidation and desire to be perfect and

00:14:19.120 follow these rules that they're really willing to do anything, especially when it came to women 1.00

00:14:25.520 at IBLP, they're willing to do anything to just ensure that they are in keeping with these basic

00:14:33.120 life principles and in their minds being obedient to God.

00:14:36.740 But let's get into some more details of it.

00:14:40.760 So the documentary basically goes through the Duggars and how they became stars.

00:14:47.500 I mean, they really were stars.

00:14:49.740 I think 19 Kids and Counting, there were some things before that, some things after that.

00:14:55.220 I only knew about 19 Kids and Counting.

00:14:57.240 I think that was when I was in high school.

00:14:58.940 I had like a vague understanding of or like a vague awareness of the Duggars and I wasn't

00:15:07.920 like TLC wasn't necessarily something that I watched all the time, except I did used to

00:15:12.660 love What Not to Wear.

00:15:14.000 It's a great show.

00:15:15.120 Great show in middle school and high school.

00:15:17.560 But I didn't really watch.

00:15:19.040 I didn't really watch the Duggars.

00:15:20.300 I'll just be honest.

00:15:20.940 Like I thought it was weird.

00:15:22.460 I thought it was weird.

00:15:23.180 I thought that they must have they must be like Mennonite or they must have some kind 0.99

00:15:28.020 of like non-Christian religious beliefs because they had the long hair.

00:15:32.640 They had the long skirts. 1.00

00:15:33.800 That was certainly not any form of Christianity that I grew up around.

00:15:37.840 I was raised Southern Baptist.

00:15:39.560 I was raised in a conservative home, but it looked nothing like the lives of the Duggars. 1.00

00:15:44.400 So I just thought it was strange.

00:15:46.320 And when people would tell me what I would ask, like ask my parents, like, what are they

00:15:50.380 like, what do they believe?

00:15:51.500 And they would say, oh, I think they're just I don't know.

00:15:54.780 I think they're just like Baptist. 0.99

00:15:56.480 I always thought it was so strange because their life didn't look like anyone's life that

00:16:01.160 I knew growing up in Dallas, Texas.

00:16:04.080 But really, that's basically all I knew about them, that they had a bunch of kids, that they

00:16:09.160 were living like an extremely conservative Christian lifestyle.

00:16:13.200 I didn't realize until I watched this documentary how huge and influential the Duggars were.

00:16:19.840 And like how much content they were making, how intrusive this stuff was into their lives.

00:16:25.620 And so that that part really fascinated me about how Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar, they

00:16:32.020 really pursued fame and pursued the spotlight in the name of gaining influence through like

00:16:37.520 some kind of godly ministry to share their beliefs to the world.

00:16:42.260 I didn't realize just like what an impact they were having or how big of an audience they

00:16:47.080 had.

00:16:47.300 And Brie, did you growing up when you were in high school, you're a little younger than

00:16:52.980 me.

00:16:53.240 Like, did you ever watch the Duggars?

00:16:55.140 Were you aware?

00:16:56.220 Yeah.

00:16:57.260 You did?

00:16:57.800 Like, did your family watch the TLC show?

00:16:59.400 I didn't watch like every episode.

00:17:00.340 But yeah, I was very aware of it.

00:17:02.500 And I called them the skirt wearers. 1.00

00:17:05.920 The skirt wearers. 0.70

00:17:06.660 Which is rude.

00:17:07.500 But that's what they are.

00:17:09.160 And that was just kind of like my thought was that's a different like area of Christianity

00:17:14.680 that that we're just not.

00:17:18.420 You were raised conservative Christian, too.

00:17:20.300 Yeah.

00:17:20.600 It was kind of similar to you.

00:17:21.800 Like it was just it just felt kind of weird that they I don't know.

00:17:25.660 The impression I got from my parents was just like, that's an area that we are not in.

00:17:32.020 We're not.

00:17:32.680 Yeah.

00:17:33.020 Were you kind of Christianity?

00:17:34.280 Were you Baptist growing up?

00:17:36.240 Yeah.

00:17:36.960 Yeah.

00:17:37.240 But you grew up in Colorado, California, Idaho, Idaho.

00:17:41.820 Yeah.

00:17:42.080 Well, Idaho, maybe.

00:17:43.240 I don't know.

00:17:43.760 You might have seen some of these similar things.

00:17:47.080 But I definitely didn't.

00:17:49.180 Like, I didn't know.

00:17:50.040 I mean, I went to a conservative Christian school and it's conservative in the sense that

00:17:55.100 we believe in the Bible.

00:17:57.160 We believe about conservative things, about like sexuality and gender and all of that.

00:18:01.540 But it's also, you know, metropolitan.

00:18:04.280 I didn't have that much connection to like rural America and certainly not these sections

00:18:09.340 of Christianity.

00:18:11.660 And I think some people have a misconception, probably.

00:18:14.240 And we'll get into this, like watching the documentary that this is conservative Christianity

00:18:18.800 went to the vast majority of us.

00:18:21.140 The Duggar lifestyle was so foreign, which is why it was on TLC, by the way, because it 1.00

00:18:25.840 was weird to most people.

00:18:27.080 And what's funny is that I remember watching a couple episodes where Cousin Amy is in the

00:18:31.900 show, who is in this documentary.

00:18:33.620 And she was, I remember a scene where she's like, yeah, I wear pants. 0.99

00:18:39.340 I'm kind of not like them.

00:18:40.840 I'm like risque compared to them.

00:18:43.640 Yeah.

00:18:43.900 She was like us.

00:18:45.320 But she was kind of painted out as like, well, she's the liberal one.

00:18:49.360 Yeah. 0.99

00:18:49.560 She's a crazy liberal cousin. 1.00

00:18:51.240 And she, you know, she probably even had a more conservative and strict life than like 1.00

00:18:58.760 I did.

00:18:59.220 I would say my parents were strict, but I mean, I went on dates.

00:19:02.700 I probably wore things that looking back, I'm like, I probably shouldn't have been wearing

00:19:06.880 that.

00:19:07.360 Whatever.

00:19:07.860 Like kind of a typical teenage life.

00:19:09.620 I mean, I wasn't rebellious or like drinking or partying or anything like that.

00:19:13.880 But even compared to Amy, I mean, the Duggars probably thought our lives would have more

00:19:19.280 crazy.

00:19:20.320 Oh, totally. 0.62

00:19:21.340 Yeah.

00:19:22.120 So that's, that's interesting.

00:19:23.880 And that's probably one of the biggest issues.

00:19:25.300 And I don't want to get into it prematurely that I have about the documentary is trying

00:19:28.700 to paint all conservative Christians as this.

00:19:32.060 So these are the problems that I listed that I saw from the documentary that the documentary

00:19:37.660 has with the Duggar IBLP theology.

00:19:42.620 Wives submitting to husbands that's treated as, oh my gosh, that is like the bane of all

00:19:48.160 evil.

00:19:48.940 Gender roles, modesty, quote unquote, purity culture, children as arrows in a quiver, culture

00:19:54.900 wars.

00:19:55.460 And then of course the hypocrisy, sexual harassment and assault.

00:20:01.080 So I'm, so this is, these are the documentaries, like I would say list of things that they

00:20:07.320 believed were wrong with IBLP.

00:20:09.120 And I agree with a lot of the things that the documentary said.

00:20:12.880 So I'm going to get into that, but I do want to distinguish between the documentary's

00:20:17.380 perspective of the problem with IBLP and the actual biblical perspective with IBLP and

00:20:24.880 Duggar theology.

00:20:25.900 And we've talked to Ginger, we've talked to Ginger and Jeremy on this show before.

00:20:29.220 And so go back and listen to a couple of those episodes because I won't be able to rehash

00:20:34.900 everything that Ginger said about how this caused a lot of fear in her life and the emphasis

00:20:39.900 on legalism and the de-emphasis on the gospel.

00:20:43.620 But definitely go back and listen to those because we have, we do kind of have like a

00:20:47.780 precursor to this conversation through that.

00:20:50.700 So let me, let me list, let me go through from a biblical perspective, what I think is

00:20:57.780 wrong with the IBLP, what I think is wrong with Duggar theology.

00:21:02.040 As I just listed, wives submitting to husbands, purity culture, culture wars, things like that.

00:21:06.260 That's what the documentary tells us is wrong with, is wrong with this movement.

00:21:11.980 But not all of those things that I listed, just on the surface, are unbiblical.

00:21:18.140 I mean, as Christians, just as Christians who read and believe the Bible, we understand that

00:21:22.540 there's a difference in gender roles. 1.00

00:21:23.960 We understand that there is an importance to modesty.

00:21:26.460 We understand that wives are called to submit to our husbands. 0.97

00:21:29.760 But we need to look at what the Bible actually says about these things.

00:21:33.400 As I will argue, it's actually different than what Bill Gothard argued about them.

00:21:38.160 So the problems with the Duggar slash IBLP theology from a biblical perspective, in just 0.51

00:21:44.280 some ways, there are many, many, but in just some of the ways that the documentary really

00:21:48.520 highlighted and then offered like their own analysis of it, not really necessarily always

00:21:53.900 a biblical analysis.

00:21:55.280 So the problem with the Duggar IBLP theology from a biblical perspective is not that wives 0.59

00:22:01.520 were called to submit to their husbands, because the Bible does say that wives are supposed 0.83

00:22:06.120 to submit to our husbands as to the Lord, does Ephesians 5.

00:22:09.640 It is not that they differentiated in gender roles.

00:22:12.680 We read that in Titus 2.

00:22:14.280 It's not that they viewed children as arrows.

00:22:16.720 We read that in Psalm 127, 4.

00:22:19.080 It's not that they emphasize modesty.

00:22:21.280 That's 1 Timothy 2, 9.

00:22:23.140 It's not that they told their adherence to influence the culture or engage in politics.

00:22:28.700 Every person, every person, no matter what their worldview is, no matter what their background

00:22:35.420 is, brings their worldview to the voting booth or the content that they produce online or

00:22:40.020 their job or their school or to their elected position.

00:22:43.320 So Christians, of course, are called to do that, too.

00:22:46.580 I mean, just as the Israelite exiles in Jeremiah 29 were told to seek the welfare of the city that

00:22:52.200 God had placed them in, so Christian exiles here on earth are to seek the welfare of the city in 1.00

00:22:58.920 which God has placed us.

00:23:00.320 One of the ways, not the exclusive way or even always the primary way, but one of the ways

00:23:05.500 to do that is to influence culture and to influence politics.

00:23:10.060 Of course, we are to fight to uphold the family.

00:23:12.780 Of course, we are to fight on behalf of vulnerable children in the womb.

00:23:17.120 Of course, we are to fight against the maiming of people's bodies in the name of 0.91

00:23:20.880 gender confusion.

00:23:22.560 Christians have always done these things in one form or another, and we will continue 1.00

00:23:27.120 to do that.

00:23:28.260 So these are not the problems with IBLP.

00:23:32.180 It is how IBLP misconstrued, misinterpreted, misapplied biblical commands to create this

00:23:39.420 legalistic, graceless, gospelist framework that oppressed and repressed its adherents rather

00:23:45.740 than setting them free and insulated powerful men from accountability, thus,

00:23:50.880 making, in particular, women and children extremely vulnerable to predation and manipulation.

00:23:58.340 That's the problem.

00:23:59.800 So we're going to go through some of these things, how, yes, the Bible says this, but not

00:24:04.980 like that.

00:24:05.660 That's really my argument against IBLP. 0.97

00:24:08.380 Okay, so, yes, the Bible does say wives submit to our husbands as to the Lord.

00:24:26.340 That's Ephesians 5.

00:24:27.480 But it also says husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church.

00:24:34.100 1 Corinthians 7 also says this.

00:24:36.520 This would have been radical at the time of a highly patriarchal society in which Paul

00:24:40.760 was writing.

00:24:41.860 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. 0.98

00:24:45.840 Likewise, the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 0.97

00:24:51.000 So even though, yes, wives are called to submit to their husbands as to the Lord and the husband

00:24:56.480 is supposed to love his wife as Christ loved the church, that means lay his life down for

00:25:01.240 her.

00:25:01.420 That means continual sacrifice for his wife.

00:25:04.040 We also read in Scripture that there is a mutual respect and a mutual submission between

00:25:09.700 husband and wife that is supposed to be reflective of or is supposed to be representative of the

00:25:19.500 godly definition of marriage.

00:25:22.000 Yes, there is a hierarchy there.

00:25:25.840 Yes, there is a structure there in marriage of submission and of respect and of love, but

00:25:32.020 that does not alleviate men and husbands of their responsibility to honor the dignity and

00:25:39.120 honor the imago Dei in their wife and honor their wife's body.

00:25:46.280 There is a mutual submission and a mutual respect that we see there, especially when it comes

00:25:51.600 to sex.

00:25:52.900 And so this is an example, I think, of the IBLP getting part of Scripture and then misapplying

00:25:59.780 it in a way that is convenient for them to be able to oppress and repress some of the women 1.00

00:26:06.580 in IBLP without upholding the responsibility that men have as well in their role in marriage.

00:26:14.600 So, yes, men and women, as IBLP notes, are different and have different responsibilities

00:26:19.960 in church and at home.

00:26:21.040 We saw that a lot in the Duggar home.

00:26:23.820 That's not necessarily bad.

00:26:26.080 Some of the things that we saw, it's not wrong for women to focus on cooking and cleaning 1.00

00:26:29.780 and for men to focus on other things.

00:26:31.680 That's not bad.

00:26:32.620 But the differing responsibilities and roles that women have that are assigned to us by 1.00

00:26:38.900 God, these do not mean that women are consigned to only homemaking or that women's education

00:26:45.540 is unimportant or that their role in the world is always a hidden one.

00:26:50.220 I don't think that that is biblically supported at all.

00:26:53.960 Throughout Scripture, we see God call upon women to humbly carry out His purpose, not in 0.98

00:26:59.860 the same way that He calls men, but He does call out women to follow or to carry out His 0.95

00:27:08.400 purpose in particular ways.

00:27:10.640 Sometimes it is through childbearing, so those more domestic perhaps roles, but sometimes not.

00:27:21.120 Sometimes it's public.

00:27:22.680 Rahab, Ruth, Hannah, Esther, Mary, Martha, Lydia.

00:27:25.340 The list goes on.

00:27:27.940 God uses women in spectacular God-ordained ways to carry out His purposes. 1.00

00:27:36.180 That seems to be something that is missing from the doctrines and the theology of IBLP.

00:27:41.840 Yes, women are to dress modestly, but modesty, we see throughout Scripture, is a value both

00:27:47.260 men and women are to uphold, not just women, as it is fundamentally about humility in our appearance

00:27:54.600 and honoring Christ with our bodies, rather than purposely drawing attention to ourselves.

00:27:59.980 And yes, Christians are called to reserve sex and sexual acts for marriage, and modesty 0.94

00:28:05.860 is absolutely a part of that.

00:28:08.000 And women are specifically instructed to ensure that we are carrying ourselves and dressing 0.87

00:28:12.600 ourselves in a very dignified and modest way.

00:28:16.060 But again, humility comes back to a state of the heart that has to be regenerated and renewed

00:28:24.980 by Christ, which means it is applicable to all Christians.

00:28:30.460 Sexual purity, which means saving all sexual acts for marriage between a man and a woman, 0.87

00:28:36.580 is the responsibility of both man and woman, not just women.

00:28:42.460 Women are not responsible for men's lusts, for their sexual drive, for their predation, for 0.98

00:28:49.060 where their eyes wander, no matter what women are wearing. 0.95

00:28:52.440 So yes, we are as women to don ourselves with humility, to make sure that we are honoring

00:28:57.840 Christ, drawing attention to Christ in all that we wear and how we appear.

00:29:02.900 That doesn't necessarily mean wearing dresses or wearing a potato sack.

00:29:07.640 It can mean lots of different things.

00:29:09.880 Of course, I think that there are some probably like strict objective parameters that we can

00:29:14.800 put around the apparel that Christians should wear. 1.00

00:29:18.580 But really, it's about the heart behind what we are wearing and whom we are drawing attention

00:29:24.900 to through our appearance.

00:29:27.600 But women are not responsible, no matter what we are wearing for men's lust or predation. 1.00

00:29:33.700 And that's something that is lost on the teachers of and the adherents of IBLP.

00:29:39.660 Matthew 5, 27 through 29.

00:29:41.920 Here's what Jesus says.

00:29:43.260 You have heard that it was said, you shall not commit adultery.

00:29:46.360 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed

00:29:50.380 adultery with her in his heart.

00:29:52.340 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away.

00:29:56.280 For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into 0.98

00:30:02.040 hell.

00:30:02.420 So you see the responsibility is placed on the luster.

00:30:06.340 The responsibility is placed on the person who is looking.

00:30:10.080 The responsibility is placed on the woman who is imagining committing an adulterous act 0.80

00:30:15.460 with a woman who is not his wife.

00:30:18.300 He said it's better for this person who notices that his eye is causing him to lust, not to push

00:30:25.640 the object of his lust to the side and punish her, but to gouge out his own eye, to take

00:30:32.280 it out to ensure that he is not lusting.

00:30:34.980 The responsibility is on the luster.

00:30:37.340 Again, that does not mean that women and men shouldn't dress modestly, that we shouldn't

00:30:43.360 glorify God with what we're wearing, with how we appear.

00:30:46.220 But we are not responsible for men's thoughts or for people's thoughts or for their lust

00:30:54.000 and certainly not for their predation.

00:30:56.280 That idea is not supported by scripture.

00:31:00.120 If you look at John 8, a story that many of you know, the woman caught in adultery.

00:31:06.900 I think that this story is misinterpreted a lot.

00:31:09.140 But I don't think I knew the real meaning behind it.

00:31:13.460 I hadn't really looked into the text and what Jesus actually meant by what he said and what

00:31:17.520 is really going on here.

00:31:19.400 I read, I have this book that I reference all the time and that I go to to ask questions

00:31:25.400 to, and it's Ethics for a Brave New World.

00:31:28.920 And in the segment talking about the death penalty, because this passage is typically used

00:31:33.440 erroneously to say that Jesus abolished the death penalty.

00:31:37.380 They actually went into the context of what this passage means, especially in relation

00:31:43.500 to the Old Testament law that Jesus would have known well and that everyone around him would

00:31:48.800 have known very well.

00:31:50.740 So in this story, this woman is caught in adultery and there are men standing there ready to stone

00:31:56.660 her.

00:31:56.920 There are Pharisees asking Jesus, trying to trap Jesus, as they often did, saying, shouldn't 0.93

00:32:02.120 we, shouldn't we execute this woman? 1.00

00:32:04.480 Doesn't the law say that she deserves to be stoned because she was caught in adultery? 1.00

00:32:11.260 And yet Jesus does something that probably seemed very peculiar.

00:32:14.100 He's quiet.

00:32:14.800 He leans down.

00:32:15.720 He seems to draw in the sand.

00:32:17.940 And he says to the people around ready to execute her, you who are without sin, be the

00:32:23.580 one to throw the first stone.

00:32:25.700 One by one, they dropped their stones and they left.

00:32:28.160 And Jesus then offers this woman mercy.

00:32:31.860 And what's typically lost in here is that Jesus is talking about the accuser's sin in

00:32:39.020 that moment.

00:32:39.680 You who are without sin, be the one to throw the first stone.

00:32:42.680 He's not saying that if you've ever sinned in your entire life, you are never justified

00:32:47.520 in executing the law that God has put forth.

00:32:50.440 He is not abolishing the death penalty.

00:32:53.040 He's doing what he had done over and over again throughout his ministry.

00:32:56.800 He's exposing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees and the religious zealots by showing that

00:33:03.200 those most zealous to follow the law were not abiding by it correctly because Jewish law

00:33:09.500 required the presence of two or three witnesses to stone someone caught in adultery.

00:33:13.800 And both parties, the man and the woman were to be executed per Deuteronomy 22, 22.

00:33:19.980 So per usual, the Pharisees and the zealots around them were giving the appearance of taking

00:33:26.220 the law seriously, but they were actually breaking it.

00:33:30.640 Jesus' problem with the Pharisees was not that they were too holy.

00:33:34.380 It's not that they were too religious.

00:33:36.020 It's not that they cared too much about God's law.

00:33:38.180 It's that they actually weren't holy or righteous enough.

00:33:41.340 They pretended to be religious law keepers, but they were constantly making up new rules

00:33:45.860 and ignoring the heart of the laws that God had given Moses. 0.94

00:33:48.440 They were actually lawless and they were hypocrites, giving off the appearance of goodness and 0.92

00:33:53.640 superiority while having only love for themselves and their hearts rather than love for God. 0.89

00:34:00.020 And this reminds me a lot of the IBLP and Bill Gothard.

00:34:03.820 The rules about dresses or courtship or disciplining your kids all used as examples of submission

00:34:13.440 to God's ordained hierarchies added to scripture and created a system in which people could

00:34:20.140 appear righteous without having any genuine understanding of the gospel or grace or even

00:34:26.700 who God is or why he tells us to do the things that he does.

00:34:31.160 Ginger, when she came on, she told us that she was always in so much fear because of these

00:34:35.720 principles that if she messed up in some way, if she didn't read her Bible enough, she thought

00:34:40.660 bad thoughts, somehow fell out of line of these rules and regulations that were placed for

00:34:45.300 her, that she would fall outside of her God's, outside of God's and her dad's protection and

00:34:52.020 that something terrible would happen to her as punishment.

00:34:55.740 Because remember, they have these this picture of these umbrellas that, you know, women and 1.00

00:35:00.820 children are to be under the umbrella of protection under husbands and then God is the umbrella of

00:35:06.760 protection over that. But what they taught was that if you mess up, if you deny one of these

00:35:13.400 principles that Bill Gothard taught, then there will be a hole in your umbrella and God will allow

00:35:19.020 these terrible things in our metaphor, hail, lightning, whatever, to get through your umbrella and

00:35:24.960 hurt you. And this is what was taught in the IBLP, which is really a form of the false prosperity

00:35:31.560 gospel. Do this and God will reward you. Don't do this and God will punish you. God's favor is

00:35:37.300 dependent upon you, your efforts, your prayers. That's different than simply saying some paths are

00:35:42.220 better than others and abiding by godly principles will bear fruit for your family. That's fine.

00:35:49.420 It's really more of a transactional mentality in which God is waiting to bless you or curse you

00:35:54.960 based on your actions, your thoughts, your prayers, and your life will be happy and healthy and whole

00:36:00.680 and easy if you just follow these rules. That's not biblical. That's not the gospel. Let me read you

00:36:09.040 some passages that show us that. 2 Corinthians 5.21, for our sake, he made him to be sin who knew no sin

00:36:16.960 so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Jesus becoming sin on our behalf, even though he

00:36:29.400 was perfect, offering himself as our perfect sacrifice, allowed us by grace through faith to

00:36:34.240 become the righteousness of God. Ephesians 2.8, for by grace you have been saved through faith and this

00:36:40.820 is not your own doing. He emphasizes over and over again, it is the gift of God, not a result of work

00:36:48.060 so that no one may boast. Romans 3.23 through 25, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

00:36:55.160 and are justified by his grace as a gift. Through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put

00:37:02.040 forward as propitiation by his blood to be received by faith. We are free from workspace salvation,

00:37:10.620 from trying to earn God's love and affection that has been secured for us in Christ if we are Christians.

00:37:16.900 If it were up to us to either obtain or maintain salvation, none of us would be saved. We would all fail.

00:37:25.160 It is upon Christ's perfect faithfulness that our approval before God rests. Now, none of this,

00:37:32.720 of course, is an excuse for sin. The Bible is very clear about that. Galatians 5.13,

00:37:38.640 for you are called the freedom brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh,

00:37:44.480 but through love serve one another. 1 Peter 2.16, live as people who are free, not using your freedom

00:37:52.220 as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Romans 6.1 through 2. What shall we say then?

00:37:58.700 Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means. How can we who died to sin still live in

00:38:05.720 it? Ephesians 4.22 through 24. Put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and

00:38:12.580 is corrupt through deceitful desires, and be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and put on the new self

00:38:18.180 created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. So, in our pursuit

00:38:25.200 of holiness, our spirit-powered pursuit of holiness, we operate from a place of freedom,

00:38:30.400 of love for God, not fear that Christ's work on the cross was insufficient, or that we have to help

00:38:37.660 him advocate our case before God on our behalf. We, through the power of the Holy Spirit,

00:38:45.180 pursue holiness because we love God, because we trust him, because we believe that his ways are

00:38:50.680 better. And when we become Christians, he places in us an increasing intolerance for and hatred of

00:38:57.680 our own sin that fuels our sanctification, our journey toward Christ-likeness. So, the real problems

00:39:04.740 with the IBLP that were exposed through this documentary, the hypocrisy, the emphasis on outward

00:39:11.200 obedience without internal understanding or regeneration, the unbiblical rules and regulations

00:39:15.960 that kept people trapped in legalism and women and children vulnerable to sexual abuse without the 0.83

00:39:21.820 possibility of real accountability. The gospel-less and graceless message that was pushed by Bill

00:39:27.380 Gothard, a huge hypocrite himself, he didn't abide by many of these principles. He was allegedly 0.97

00:39:33.360 a serial predator. He never had a family himself, and therefore, he really had no personal experience in

00:39:40.760 any of these things that he was pushing on other families. And all of this was carried down,

00:39:45.900 carried out by many of his followers. Also, just in keeping with what I think is like biblical criticism

00:39:52.660 of the Duggar family, based on what we've seen here and in other places, the intrusion and the utter 0.86

00:39:59.220 exploitation that was required to film little children their entire lives. You guys know how much I care

00:40:06.660 about child safety, child privacy. That wasn't protected. These kids were not protected. They

00:40:14.100 didn't even have the opportunity, the ability to consent to any of this. Their entire upbringing,

00:40:19.420 their everyday lives were commercialized, were exploited for profit. The lack of privacy and normalcy

00:40:26.680 had to have a negative impact on their upbringing. They had no choice. Jim Bob, the dad, he seemed to

00:40:36.940 have a relentless interest in increasing influence, no matter the cost. I was shocked to see that some of

00:40:45.060 the girls, when they grew up and the cameras continued to follow them around, if you watch the documentary,

00:40:51.500 you'll see that they basically felt like they had no choice but to continue on with TLC, that their dad

00:40:57.480 really made them feel like you have to do this. And he, by the way, he took the money from this stuff.

00:41:04.760 I was shocked to see that some of these girls, after they got married, became women, had also basically 1.00

00:41:10.080 been forced or convinced to allow a camera crew into their births. I had no idea that that was

00:41:17.000 something that was happening. I can't even imagine. I cannot, I can't even imagine that. I cannot even

00:41:23.040 imagine the violation of privacy. And I don't think that they had the full authority to, to say that

00:41:29.220 they didn't want that. The apparent insistence by Jim Bob to refuse to tell the truth about his son,

00:41:35.340 Josh, when he was called to testify against him in the child's sexual abuse material case.

00:41:40.740 By the way, as I've said many times before, for some reason, my take on this has been like,

00:41:47.880 I don't know, completely like lied about. But as I said at the time, and I will say again, like

00:41:54.220 Josh Duggar, if he found guilty of possessing this child's sex abuse material, he should have gotten 25

00:42:01.300 years to life in prison. He got 12 years. He should have gotten far more than that. And shame on anyone in

00:42:08.640 his family who refused, who knew the truth and refused to actually say the truth for fear that

00:42:14.740 he was going to get some kind of hefty sentence. Look, he sexually abused via consumption, via 0.61

00:42:21.760 exploitation, children that should carry with it a very, very long, severe sentence. 12 years is not

00:42:29.580 enough for the crimes that he is said to have committed. And then also I was like, I think I was

00:42:36.900 very, I don't know if I would say shocked by, but saddened by. And I, again, think that this is just

00:42:44.800 unbiblical and wrong exploitation. Jim Bob's alleged, I'll say that because it's alleged,

00:42:51.540 alleged stenchiness with money that was clearly owed to his children, whose lives he was actively

00:42:58.020 profiting from. There's a lot going on here. There's a lot to be said that I think is,

00:43:04.000 was unbiblical about how the show was run, the fact that the show even existed at all,

00:43:10.100 how the IBLP was run, how people were treated, how abuse was allowed in some cases to keep going

00:43:17.580 in the IBLP. And so there's plenty to criticize about the Duggars. But the criticism, a lot of the

00:43:26.520 criticism, not all, a lot of the criticism that was lodged by this documentary and some of the people

00:43:33.680 in the documentary was completely hypocritical and sometimes downright absurd that I literally

00:43:39.520 laughed out loud at some of the claims that they were trying to make, not just about the Duggars and 0.91

00:43:44.600 IBLP, but really Christians, period. All right, I'm going to bring Brie back in for some of this 1.00

00:44:04.180 that I just want to talk about some of the ridiculous stuff that I saw in the documentary

00:44:09.700 that again, you could, if like they had kept it biblical and said like, this is the problem,

00:44:14.840 this is how we distinguish the IBLP from the rest of Christianity or even conservative Christianity,

00:44:19.720 that would have given it more credibility. But what they're trying to push and what they're trying

00:44:26.700 to paint here is that this is conservative Christianity. This is what Christians are like 1.00

00:44:35.360 who vote Republican. If you vote pro-life, if you try to get involved in these so-called culture wars,

00:44:40.780 if you're against this like confusion about gender, then you are a dangerous cult-like fundamentalist

00:44:52.520 who is just like the Duggars. And they really make no distinction at all. And the reason that I know that

00:45:00.660 is because some of the people that they relied on, oh my gosh, like I've seen their content before,

00:45:06.960 I'm like, this is not a serious person. I can't believe that you're relying on these people.

00:45:11.180 They have called me specifically, some of these people in this documentary being used as experts,

00:45:17.860 they've called me a fundamentalist. Me, like they put me in the same category as the Duggars,

00:45:25.860 even though my upbringing was nothing like the Duggars at all. They would have thought I was a

00:45:30.900 wild and crazy progressive. I mean, I definitely wore pants. Actually, I refused to wear dresses for

00:45:37.260 a period of time in my life. I went to college and I dated people and I wore two-piece swimsuits and

00:45:44.720 I got a job after college and I still have a job now. So, I mean, they would think that I was

00:45:50.480 absolutely out there way past Amy, way past Amy. And yet these people call me a fundamentalist and

00:45:56.540 anyone like me a fundamentalist. Why? Because I also believe in the biblical definition of marriage,

00:46:01.880 because I also believe in a differentiation in gender roles, because I also believe and take

00:46:06.580 seriously what the Bible says. And yes, the Bible is the inerrant word of God and we should follow it. 1.00

00:46:12.700 And I do think that that view should infuse how we engage in politics and how we engage in culture.

00:46:18.160 Of course I do. And so that's how, that's one reason why this documentary loses a lot of

00:46:24.960 credibility for me because, okay, I was thinking about this analogy. Like if I told you, and you

00:46:32.640 can tell me, Bree, if this makes sense. If I told you, you know what, this is not my, what I'm about to

00:46:39.360 say is not about country music. It's just about Luke Bryan. I don't, I don't like Luke Bryan, but all the

00:46:46.280 reasons that I listed for not liking Luke Bryan. Like I don't like his country accent. I don't like

00:46:52.140 that he sings about beer. I hate that he mentions Tennessee. I hate that his songs are slow. Like

00:46:58.140 whatever you would probably say, uh, well, it sounds like your issue is with country music in general

00:47:03.680 because it's not just Luke Bryan. Okay. You're right. The whole catfish dinner thing. That was a

00:47:08.280 little cheesy, but it, everything that you're saying applies just as much to Garth Brooks or

00:47:15.600 just as much to George Strait. In fact, if I brought up George Strait as a, as like an example,

00:47:21.080 you'd be like, okay, but that has nothing to do with Luke Bryan. Luke Bryan and George Strait

00:47:25.040 aren't the same, but I lumped them. You would say, well, you just don't like country music.

00:47:30.220 And that's the feeling that I got from this documentary. They're, I mean, they're lumping

00:47:34.860 everyone into this. Every conservative Christian that fights the culture war,

00:47:39.600 every conservative Christian that was excited about Roe v. Wade being overturned, 0.94

00:47:43.640 every conservative Christian that believes in Ephesians five as this crazy, dangerous 0.98

00:47:48.980 fundamentalist. Did you get that feeling? Yeah. 100%. And to be honest, I was shocked that an image 0.95

00:47:55.580 of you was not in there. Yeah. I was waiting for it because they sift through. Uh, I mean,

00:48:03.060 we can go into specifics if you want, but there's a point where they sift through. They're trying to

00:48:06.800 make the point that like these people use social media, they use technology to further their agenda.

00:48:13.000 And then they sift through like a bunch of like Christian influencers who I, the ones I recognize

00:48:18.400 do not identify as fundamentalists. Okay. Like Paul and Morgan. Paul and Morgan. I don't,

00:48:23.620 I've never seen any of their content, but she wears pants, I think. So already she wears pants, 0.90

00:48:29.000 but they played like a couple of times of a clip of her saying, you can't be a they, them people.

00:48:34.380 And I'm like, true. Is that fundamentalist? Yeah. Like, and they were actually in the documentary.

00:48:40.980 Yeah, I know they were interviewed and then, and then they show girl defined and a clip of them

00:48:45.280 talking about like drag Queens and they use it as an example of like Christians are talking about 1.00

00:48:50.340 these fringe things and they're coming to the forefront because they're talking about them.

00:48:54.540 And, um, and, and that's, you know, yeah, that's what these people are using scary. Yeah. So spooky.

00:49:01.060 The part that made me laugh out loud was, I mean, they did this multiple times, but like when they

00:49:08.040 would be like, and this person was homeschooled and was in the Trump administration. And this person

00:49:14.800 also wore a long skirt and was excited that Roe v. Wade was overturned. And then they talk about these

00:49:22.800 people who, Oh my gosh, they were homeschooled and they were conservative and maybe they like

00:49:27.840 were friends with the Duggars. They became police officers and they joined the military and they 0.94

00:49:33.560 joined the CIA and they ran for office to try to make it seem like there was this huge, like in lockstep

00:49:42.720 militia of IBLP adherence that are taking over the world. Like the hyenas in Lion King, like they're 1.00

00:49:53.480 just one after another, after another. I'm like, okay, you're talking about maybe a few thousand

00:50:00.720 people, maybe, maybe on a good day and, or a bad day, however you want to say it. Like that was

00:50:08.500 absolutely ridiculous to me. And that it is them who are so scarily like imbuing their values into 0.93

00:50:16.340 children and teaching their children to like, to push their value. Now I'm not saying that their

00:50:22.780 values were good, but to imply that it is only this sect or it's conservative Christians that are

00:50:32.580 passing down values to their kids. That, I mean, that's totally hypocritical and ridiculous. Like 0.99

00:50:41.220 who runs the show in this world? Is it Bill Gothard and the Duggars? Like who controls big

00:50:49.000 governments, the major, uh, security entities, the security state, the doctrines and ideology of the

00:50:57.580 military, the major corporations, the public education system, academia, like what ideology

00:51:04.360 is controlling those entities in our country? Is it fundamental, Christian fundamentalism,

00:51:11.440 Christian nationalism? They actually, I don't think said Christian nationalism very much. Or is it

00:51:15.560 progressivism? It's progressivism. Like we have the Biden administration, the federal government,

00:51:23.360 most state governments, we have our, uh, medical industrial complex in the United States. We've got

00:51:31.700 our branches of our military, all waving this flag that includes the transgender colors, which is an 0.97

00:51:40.420 umbrella for children maiming their bodies in the name of gender affirmation. That's what's going on 1.00

00:51:47.320 from the top down. Progressive ideology dominates every single major national and almost every major

00:51:54.600 international or, uh, national and international institution. This idea that men can become women, 0.63

00:52:03.040 this idea that bodily autonomy means killing your children, this idea that we can rearrange the family 0.59

00:52:08.540 to be two women, two men, three people, like that is all, that's all mainstream.

00:52:14.960 Those are all the biggest, most influential doctrines in our country. Like I would love to see where these

00:52:23.640 scary Christian nationalists are placing their influence and actually winning in a major way. Like 0.99

00:52:32.100 are the, is the fundamentalist in the room with us right now? Like they try to make it seem like

00:52:38.640 IBLP is militarizing and taking over the world without actually any evidence of that. 0.98

00:52:44.960 Yeah. They say one of the interviewees, I guess, ex IBLP says world domination was the goal.

00:52:52.020 And then they go into talking about the Joshua generation, which Alex Harris, Joshua Harris's

00:52:58.040 brother, the I kiss dating goodbye guy. Yeah. Now he kiss Christianity goodbye. Yeah. Yeah. His brother,

00:53:04.320 um, quotes what the Joshua generation is as a decades long multi-generational plan to raise up

00:53:11.700 an elite strike force of Christian homeschool graduates to infiltrate the highest levels of 1.00

00:53:16.960 government. Oh no. So scary. Um, and then they talk about how the most important goal is that we see

00:53:23.480 these people go into the U S Supreme court, um, and bring America back to its rightful position as a

00:53:28.980 Christian nation. This is all scary. Music is playing under this. Yes. And then they cut to footage 1.00

00:53:34.060 of Roe v. Wade being overturned. Wait, which member of the IBLP is currently on the Supreme court?

00:53:42.980 They conveniently don't bring that up. Mention that. Um, and, uh, and mind you, this whole section

00:53:50.320 is in, it's sandwiched between them talking about Josh Duggar's sexual issues. Right. On the other side of

00:54:00.000 it is talking about Bill Gothard's sexual misconduct. So this is just kind of like the Roe v. Wade,

00:54:06.200 these evil Christians wanting to overturn abortion is like conveniently sandwiched between 1.00

00:54:10.680 two stories of people being awful. Christians being awful. Um, professing Christians. Yeah. 1.00

00:54:16.500 Professing Christians being awful. Um, so it just obviously conflating the two. And I think 1.00

00:54:22.220 that that was very intentional. Oh, I think it was intentional too. Yeah. And the whole thing about,

00:54:28.180 oh, the dangers of seeing like your children as arrows being launched into the future to fight

00:54:33.540 these culture wars. On the one hand, I understand children are, they're primarily, they're image

00:54:38.220 bearers that we are to steward. We have responsibility for our children to care for and protect them.

00:54:43.180 They're not primarily to be seen as like, uh, vessels for the culture war, whatever it is. Like

00:54:50.240 our goal is to help our children glorify God in everything they think, say, and do through discipleship.

00:54:56.780 But it does, I mean, Psalm 127.4 does say that like arrows in a quiver are the children of one's

00:55:04.560 youth. So yes, everyone understands whether you're a Christian or not, that the most influential thing

00:55:09.660 that you can do is teach children. I mean, that's why progressives have taken over the public education

00:55:16.180 system. That's why there are now a million kids books about being able to switch your gender. 0.87

00:55:20.580 That's why there's drag queen story hour. That's why now they're including children in conversations

00:55:27.640 about sexuality and gender confusion and making sure that kids know that black lives matter,

00:55:33.320 creating these little activists and, uh, you know, student groups and at school. I mean,

00:55:38.740 the left has been dominating child influence for a very long time for the goal of global domination

00:55:45.500 explicitly. And they've done that really well. Look guys, you have the world economic forum,

00:55:51.640 some of the richest billionaires in the world, funding your stuff, not the other way around.

00:55:57.500 You have the power, you have the corporations, you have the major governments, you have the

00:56:02.260 billionaires, you have the pharmaceutical companies. Like you've got the money, you've got the authority,

00:56:08.420 you've got the influence, you've got the global domination, not fundamentalists, not Christian 0.64

00:56:14.740 conservatives. You've created a boogeyman to justify your naked quest for power by pointing a finger at

00:56:23.180 other people who you claim are doing the same thing that you're doing. I love the, I love the little,

00:56:29.600 like cute, shy thing that progressives do. Like they want power. We would never want power. We would

00:56:39.620 not power. What? We don't, we don't want the government. We don't want, no, we're just, we're just

00:56:45.860 here. We just want equality. We just want love. We just want inclusion. Sit down as I force this vaccine

00:56:53.300 into your arm. Like, I mean, that's, that's funny. That's funny. You guys literally shut down the

00:56:59.200 world during COVID and forced two-year-olds to wear masks. Oh no, we don't, we don't want power. We

00:57:05.260 just want the government to punish you for disagreeing with us. We just want to ruin the

00:57:09.640 life of a Christian baker because he won't make our transgender cake. What? No, we don't want power. 1.00

00:57:15.620 We're just minding our own business. By the way, we will burn down your city if we're mad about 0.93

00:57:22.120 something. Um, so the hypocrisy of the progressive critics on this, it just, I mean, that was, 0.97

00:57:29.200 that was the craziest part to me. It was clear they had no, no idea and no intention of finding

00:57:35.640 someone who you already said this, but who could differentiate, you know, the gospel versus what

00:57:41.340 these people believed. But also, yeah, just the fact that like, you clearly know nothing about

00:57:47.740 Christianity because you would know that, yeah, Christians do want to spread the gospel around

00:57:52.680 the world. Yeah. But the fact that you don't think your ideology, the people who believe in your

00:57:57.580 ideology also want world domination of it. And you're saying homeschooled militia is the

00:58:04.580 threat. Yeah. Really? Those guys are the threat? Okay. Right. No, you make such a good point that

00:58:09.820 they did not even attempt to bring one person on there. No. To distinguish between what the

00:58:15.020 gospel is and what IBLP was and what Christianity should really be or according to the Bible and

00:58:23.880 their version of Christianity. Instead, they had on all these progressives just talking about how,

00:58:28.680 like, how we just all need to deconstruct. But they never even said deconstruct into what?

00:58:33.500 You know? They talk about it for a second. And they use, this is, this part got me also. They

00:58:39.280 use Ginger as an example. Yeah. Right. And they creatively cut up some of her interview footage,

00:58:44.840 not from our show, but other shows where, um, where she's warning people against like Gothard's

00:58:51.660 teachings. Um, but they conveniently leave out the most important part, which is one,

00:58:56.220 she's still a Christian and two, that she doesn't call it deconstruction. She calls it disentanglement.

00:59:01.360 Um, and so they kind of use her as an example of deconstructing this faith when that's not even what

00:59:08.520 she would call it. That's not how she defines it. Yeah. Yeah. I never have found someone who

00:59:14.940 truly deconstructs and deconstructs to a more biblical form of Christianity. Um, I mean,

00:59:21.120 cause that again, I would say is not necessarily deconstructing. It's just sanctification. It's

00:59:26.300 what we all do. Like I can look back to high school and college and I can see some of the things that I

00:59:31.320 believe, some of the things that I read that were not true. Like prosperity gospel totally. I mean,

00:59:36.940 I was kind of like, I was taught some of those things, believed it. Some of the things about

00:59:41.840 like a woman's worth being tied to like how, like if she kissed one or two guys or something in high

00:59:48.840 school, like I believed those things, but as I read the Bible more and as I was sanctified by the

00:59:54.640 Holy spirit, I let those beliefs go. That's not deconstruct. I'm not deconstructing. That is just

01:00:01.140 sanctification. I think that's also what, um, I think that's what Ginger would say. I, and they

01:00:06.540 totally used her, I think in the wrong way. Yeah. And I don't know if they asked her for an 1.00

01:00:12.360 interview and she said no, but from the angle that they took with the whole narrative, I have a

01:00:17.880 feeling that they didn't. Yeah. But I don't know. Yeah. I don't know.

01:00:22.780 Okay. So I just wanted to get into Brie. Um, I have a, like, I have a final quote that I kind

01:00:39.880 of want to end on, but you listed a lot of things that you particularly found like disturbing or

01:00:45.920 interesting. And unfortunately we don't have time to get into all of them, but I just want to hear

01:00:50.900 some of those things. Like, what are some of the things as you were watching that like surprised

01:00:55.460 you or you thought were strange or whatever? Yeah. Um, yeah. Well, first I wrote this up at

01:01:02.560 the top. I've, I found it really interesting. I forget who said it, probably some ex member

01:01:06.860 talking about how Michelle Duggar uses that baby voice. Yeah. So you don't think that's genuine.

01:01:12.560 Well, she says in it, she used to be a cheerleader. And so the girl who's being interviewed says,

01:01:19.280 I know she can yell like a normal woman, but she chooses to speak in a baby voice because 1.00

01:01:25.640 infantilization is sort of one of the tenets of what they teach women to be. And I just thought that 1.00

01:01:32.480 that was really interesting. Um, yeah, that's really bizarre. It's like Hilaria Baldwin who grew

01:01:38.280 up in Boston and has mysteriously, she doesn't say ca anymore. She says caro or whatever it is.

01:01:47.160 She's decided that she is Hispanic. It just happens sometimes, I guess. Yeah. Um, I don't know. 0.70

01:01:51.640 Like, I don't, I mean, it'd be interested to know if someone like knew her before. Maybe she's always

01:01:56.160 had like this high pitched voice, but I do like the infantilization of women just in general. And 1.00

01:02:03.300 this is not even just IBLP. I think we've seen it some in the so-called patriarchist movement

01:02:07.300 recently. It really grosses me out. It grosses me out. And I do think that that can set the basis

01:02:13.640 for the kind of abuse that Josh perpetrated. I'm not saying that's the only reason for it. I mean,

01:02:18.580 sin is sin, but it's like, I don't know this idea that women are like, that their minds aren't fully 1.00

01:02:26.900 formed or that they just don't have the same capacity for maturation and understanding and

01:02:31.620 resistance. Like there was this one story of one of the girls, I was also like cleaning up and like

01:02:37.020 listening to this at the same time. So I didn't see who it was, who was talking about that at one of

01:02:41.340 these like IBLP. I don't know if it was like camps or training sessions or something for young people

01:02:46.560 that one of the leaders, because they were taught like the oldest male president is always the one

01:02:51.280 in charge, like crawled into her bed. Yeah. And she didn't know how to say no, because she had never

01:02:59.980 been taught. She'd been taught like you don't question any authority, especially male authority.

01:03:05.460 And I think it's purposeful not to tell girls how to say no, which really makes me wonder what,

01:03:11.740 how it really went down when Josh was molesting his sisters. Because if they were taught like,

01:03:18.920 this is the, this is a part of authority and we don't know how to say no. Again,

01:03:24.200 that infantilization patron patronization of women is just really just like stomach turning for me.

01:03:30.500 Yeah. If women are dumb little babies who don't know anything, then you can do whatever you want. 1.00

01:03:35.440 Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's sick. The other thing having to do with those IBLP facilities, 1.00

01:03:43.480 they would send kids to them for like homeschool camps or summer camps,

01:03:47.520 and they would just make them work for like 15, 16 hours a day, apparently, allegedly. And one,

01:03:55.820 one former member claims, if you got in trouble, they would lock you in an empty hotel room for hours

01:04:00.140 or days or weeks and give you a Bible until they thought you were repentant enough. And the people

01:04:05.200 who decided were other kids who are like slightly older. And so she said one time a team leader didn't

01:04:12.520 like the shoes she was wearing because they had like a tiny heel. Yeah. And that would, you know,

01:04:16.980 distract men. And so she got locked in a prayer room for four days. Okay. Tell us what your,

01:04:22.880 what your mom told you, because she regretfully, she didn't realize it at the time. A lot of,

01:04:28.240 a lot of Christians in the eighties and nineties, you know, like you just didn't know. I don't think

01:04:31.820 my parents ever attended it, but your mom attended one. Tell us what she said.

01:04:35.540 Yeah. My parents went, I think they were just invited to a Bill Gothard seminar. Um,

01:04:40.300 and they went and she said, the saddest thing, like looking back is that there is some truth

01:04:46.840 mixed in with all of this evil that they are also talking about. Um, but she regrets listening to

01:04:53.280 anything. He said, she says, I remember him talking about how it was wrong to listen to

01:04:57.340 women singing in a microphone because that was representing an intimacy that you shouldn't have 1.00

01:05:02.460 with that woman. Um, he also said that he didn't believe in adoption because you could bring a demon

01:05:08.820 possessed child into your house. Okay. That's wild. Although I feel like I have seen that.

01:05:16.020 I, that idea I think is more prevalent than we think really in that part of the world and professing

01:05:25.240 Christianity, not necessarily the demon, but that they could be a bad influence on your, 0.95

01:05:32.180 which is really sad. And again, the opposite of the gospel on the, like in the name of protection

01:05:37.700 and safety, it's kind of the same thing that progressives do. This is for your safety. This is

01:05:42.000 for your own good. This is why we have to like put these rules. This is why the government has

01:05:45.980 to force you to do something. It's like, I guess cults do this, but especially IBLP, like for your

01:05:51.360 safety and protection, like we have to basically not abide by scripture. We have to make sure that

01:05:58.180 you do all these things and put these heavy burdens on you. Um, yeah. And Jesus's burden is light

01:06:05.380 and his yoke is easy. And it's not because we don't obey. It's because we understand like the gospel

01:06:10.600 of grace that motivates us to obey. And that's something that both IBLP get wrong in this

01:06:15.300 documentary gets wrong because this documentary never talks about the importance of becoming like

01:06:20.140 Christ or like the freedom that is actually offered through the gospel. Crazy. Okay. So this is what I

01:06:28.520 wanted to close out on because this is what I've seen. It kind of brings it back to the beginning

01:06:32.400 when I talked about like the loss of credibility in some ways that this documentary has, because

01:06:36.820 they conflate like all conservative Christianity with IBLP and some of the dangerous doctrines that 0.95

01:06:44.100 were pushed by people like the Duggars and believed by people like the Duggars. Everyone's a fundamentalist

01:06:50.640 who believes in, uh, pushing back against some of the dark parts of our culture. Uh, everyone's a

01:06:56.700 fundamentalist who believes in the definition of marriage. Everyone's a fundamentalist who is against

01:07:00.240 abortion. Everyone is a fundamentalist who is, um, uh, against, or who is, uh, for the gender

01:07:08.100 binary. And it's just a way to make you scared. It's amazing. It's a way to say, well, I don't want 1.00

01:07:15.740 to associate with those people over there because those people are extreme. Those people are radical.

01:07:21.000 Those people have scary documentaries made about them. Those people are seen as hateful. Those people

01:07:25.900 cause real harm. So they want you to say, well, I'm going to get as far away from that as possible.

01:07:31.220 And their methods, their implied methods for getting as far away from that as possible is not

01:07:35.660 sticking more closely to scripture, not understanding the gospel better, not spending more time in prayer

01:07:40.560 and being better sanctified by the Holy Spirit. It is by becoming more progressive it, because that's

01:07:46.100 the things that they show that are so scary. Uh, they want you to be pro-choice. They want you to be

01:07:51.040 pro-gay marriage. They want you to be, uh, pro gender switching and the idea of being like, uh, 0.93

01:07:57.180 they, them, because those are the things that they show and categorize as bad and scary and Christian 0.99

01:08:01.580 nationalists. They want you to stay home. They want you to be the only kind of American that does not

01:08:06.940 bring their worldview to the voting booth and does not try to influence culture or curriculum with what

01:08:11.760 you believe. Progressives can do that totally. And it's totally fine. It's just neutral. It's just

01:08:15.960 about love and inclusion. But as soon as you try to infuse your Christian values in every sphere 0.94

01:08:20.720 that you occupy, suddenly that's scary and that's militant and that's taking over the world. And so

01:08:26.620 it really does, it requires a lot of discernment when, um, when watching this and realizing that

01:08:33.420 this is, even though some of the criticisms by the documentary are totally legitimate and like

01:08:38.760 should be reckoned with and taken seriously and all of that, some of them are ridiculous and 0.52

01:08:44.840 completely worldly and also equally anti-gospel and harmful. And it reminds me of this quote by C.S. 0.87

01:08:50.720 Lewis, um, in the Screwtape Letters that I think about a lot. Uh, today, everyone's a

01:08:56.180 fundamentalist who just takes the Bible seriously. Well, back when C.S. Lewis was writing the Screwtape

01:09:03.140 Letters, uh, everyone was a Puritan who took things seriously. You don't want to be a Puritan

01:09:08.280 because Puritans were too strict. They were too pious. They were too religious. They were too 0.99

01:09:12.820 pharisaical. And you don't want to be a Puritan. It's okay to kind of be a Christian, but you don't want

01:09:19.540 to be a Puritan. And Screwtape Letters, if you don't know, they're demon. It's a demon writing to

01:09:24.960 his demon nephew who is on assignment trying to basically corrupt the soul of his patient or the 0.87

01:09:31.520 person that he is assigned to. And this, uh, the demon writing, the uncle Screwtape says that it's

01:09:39.520 very, very good to conflate or to say that being a Puritan is bad and to conflate normal Christian

01:09:45.460 virtues with being a bad Puritan because that actually keeps people away from actually following

01:09:52.060 scripture. So here's how he says it. In modern Christian writings, though, I see much about

01:09:57.440 mammon, which is like materialism. I see few of the old warnings about worldly vanities, the choice of

01:10:03.300 friends and the value of time. All of that your patient would probably classify as Puritanism. And may

01:10:09.640 I remark in passing that the value we have given to that word is one of the really solid triumphs of

01:10:16.620 the last hundred years. By it, we rescue annually thousands of humans from temperance, chastity,

01:10:23.900 and sobriety of life. And so that from the satanic demonic perspective is a win when you can call

01:10:34.600 basic Christian tenets, scary fundamentalism, fascism, Christian nationalism, frightening 0.96

01:10:41.860 Puritanism. Then you can keep people away from abiding by what the word of God says because they're 0.96

01:10:48.560 scared to be categorized as an extremist. Annually, thousands of humans are saved, says this demon,

01:10:56.540 from temperance, chastity, and sobriety of life because they're scared that makes them a Puritan.

01:11:01.580 Look, how do we protect ourselves from the legalistic aspects of people who profess Christianity as well

01:11:10.120 as the degeneracy that we see from the world, which also tries to present a perverted form of

01:11:18.180 morality or Christianity? We stick to God's word. We ask for wisdom and discernment. His ways are

01:11:25.280 perfect and he is so gracious to give us a lot of clarity in scripture. That doesn't mean that we're

01:11:29.420 going to agree on every issue, but all these big things, the Bible is really clear. If we're going

01:11:36.440 to church and we see and we hear a preacher, a pastor say something that doesn't align with God's

01:11:41.760 word, whether it's on the progressive side or whether it's on this actual fundamentalist side,

01:11:47.660 we have access to the word of God. One of the beautiful parts about the Protestant Reformation.

01:11:51.880 We have access to the word of God in our language. We have access to the Holy Spirit if we are Christians

01:11:57.040 to give us wisdom, give us discernment and say, but what does scripture say? What does scripture

01:12:02.800 say? So that's my biggest takeaway, I think, from this documentary. You guys have been asking so much

01:12:08.140 for me to give my thoughts on it. I know it's a longer episode, but there's a lot to talk about.

01:12:12.220 We could have talked about a lot more. Maybe we'll do a follow-up at some point if you guys have more

01:12:15.540 questions. I didn't have time to get to some of the stuff, the SBC stuff that I wanted to talk about.

01:12:20.680 So I'll have to do that, I don't know, on a later date. We got some good guests coming up this week

01:12:26.660 and so maybe on Thursday we'll be able to cover that. All right, we will be back here tomorrow. See you then.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - June 19, 2023

Ep 824 ｜ 'Shiny, Happy People'： The Real Problems with Duggar Theology

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