Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 844 ｜ Is the Pro-Life Movement Fake？｜ Guest： Bradley Pierce

00:00:00.000 What's the difference in being a pro-lifer and an abortion abolitionist?

00:00:06.640 This is a very contentious and controversial debate among those who are anti-abortion.

00:00:13.920 And today I am talking with an abolitionist, Bradley Pierce.

00:00:17.700 He's the president of Abolish Abortion Texas and the Foundation to Abolish Abortion.

00:00:24.500 And he is going to tell me why today abortion abolitionists oppose much of the mainstream

00:00:32.600 pro-life movement, specifically from a biblical but also a constitutional perspective.

00:00:39.840 This is a really fascinating discussion that you guys have been asking me to have for years

00:00:45.720 at this point, and I know that you are going to be educated by it.

00:00:49.660 You are hopefully going to be encouraged and challenged by it.

00:00:52.440 I know I was.

00:00:53.800 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:56.660 Go to GoodRanchers.com.

00:00:57.940 Use code Allie at checkout for a discount.

00:01:00.200 That's GoodRanchers.com, code Allie.

00:01:11.180 Bradley Pierce, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

00:01:14.360 Can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

00:01:17.120 Yeah.

00:01:17.540 So, I mean, the most important thing about me is I'm a Christian, saved by the grace of

00:01:21.220 God.

00:01:21.540 I'm a husband to my wife, Cindy, father to our, we're expecting number 11 right now.

00:01:26.580 Oh my goodness.

00:01:27.540 And tell everyone how old your oldest is.

00:01:29.980 Our oldest is 12 years old.

00:01:31.600 And you're expecting number 11.

00:01:33.140 That's amazing.

00:01:33.500 We're expecting number 11.

00:01:33.920 We have two sets of twins in there. 0.98

00:01:35.680 Yes.

00:01:36.000 And they're all just a blessing.

00:01:38.140 We love them.

00:01:38.680 We're excited.

00:01:39.820 Yeah.

00:01:39.980 I'm due in December.

00:01:41.240 So, I've got a little more long, a little longer to wait.

00:01:44.000 But then, as a profession, I'm an attorney.

00:01:47.040 I've been practicing for 16 years.

00:01:49.500 Awesome.

00:01:50.160 And you are an abolitionist.

00:01:52.320 You are the president of Abolish Abortion Texas.

00:01:56.340 Also, the foundation to abolish abortion.

00:01:59.020 Now, most people who listen to this podcast are pro-life.

00:02:02.800 We are against abortion and may even call themselves abortion abolitionists.

00:02:09.960 But not very many people know exactly what that means.

00:02:14.140 So, what distinguishes an abortion abolitionist from maybe your standard pro-lifer?

00:02:20.620 Yeah.

00:02:21.320 Well, I mean, I was always raised pro-life, you know, raised in a Christian home, raised

00:02:25.220 pro-life, always thought abortion was wrong.

00:02:27.880 It's a sin.

00:02:29.420 And, you know, it was, at some point, though, I started to see a lot of what I would call

00:02:35.040 compromises happening in the pro-life movement, compromising principles, not fighting the battle

00:02:39.780 against abortion on, I think, Christian, biblical terms.

00:02:43.660 And so, for me, what being an abolitionist means in a nutshell is, first and foremost, that

00:02:48.460 I'm a Christian, which means that I approach the issue of abortion from Christianity, I 0.84

00:02:53.900 use God's Word, it's, you know, it's the most powerful words in the universe, certainly

00:02:58.700 not to the exclusion of science and reason and things like that, but we shouldn't be afraid

00:03:03.040 to use God's Word, the sword of the Spirit.

00:03:05.180 So, I'm a Christian who believes that murdering anyone should be illegal for everyone, because

00:03:11.800 everyone's made in the image of God, and God tells us to love our neighbor as ourselves.

00:03:16.280 So, what are the laws protecting my life from someone murdering me right now?

00:03:21.360 Well, those should be the same laws that I want to protect someone's life before they're

00:03:25.200 born as well.

00:03:26.200 And you don't see support for that idea among a lot of mainstream pro-life organizations,

00:03:33.140 or they might say that, right?

00:03:35.020 They would say, Christian pro-lifers, everyone's made in the image of God.

00:03:39.320 Life starts at conception.

00:03:40.540 We should be able to protect the dignity and the right to life of unborn children using

00:03:46.620 the law, and yet there are some distinctions between what you believe or what abolitionists

00:03:52.840 believe and what the standard pro-life person and organization advocates for.

00:03:58.060 So, what are some of those distinctions?

00:04:00.160 Yeah.

00:04:00.320 So, again, one of those is using the authority of God's Word and being willing to do that.

00:04:07.560 A lot of times, I even saw a post today, someone saying, hey, we really shouldn't use Scripture,

00:04:12.620 right?

00:04:12.900 Because the people that we're talking to, they don't submit to the authority of Scripture,

00:04:16.520 right?

00:04:16.760 They're not Christians, so why would we use Scripture with them? 1.00

00:04:20.300 But God's Word says faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

00:04:24.300 And so, we should be using God's Word.

00:04:25.900 So, I think that's a big distinction between abolitionists and the pro-life movement.

00:04:31.100 And when I say pro-life movement, you know, obviously it's a generalization, there's obviously

00:04:36.300 individuals within it that this would be, you know, there would be differences of opinion

00:04:40.020 on this, but generally speaking, the pro-life movement, although it's full of many, many

00:04:44.320 Christians, when it comes to the arguments, typically it doesn't begin with and end with

00:04:51.220 Scripture.

00:04:51.820 They're trying to make a so-called secular case against abortion.

00:04:57.980 Yes, which I've also said something I realized, though, over the past couple of years, I can't

00:05:01.880 say that I've always realized this, that there really isn't a secular case against abortion.

00:05:06.760 People say it's against science, it's against morality, it's against ethics, but morality

00:05:11.720 and ethics don't mean anything if they're not rooted in absolute truth.

00:05:15.560 And science can tell us what can be, but not what should be, or what is, but not what must.

00:05:23.860 And so, science doesn't really tell us that abortion is wrong.

00:05:27.760 So, I agree with you there, that there is an effort.

00:05:31.220 No, we're going to make this secular, progressive argument for abortion.

00:05:36.020 You can try, but you're, it still starts with the premise that that life inside of the womb

00:05:43.660 is valuable, and science can't really, can't really answer whether or not a human is valuable.

00:05:50.300 Right, exactly.

00:05:51.220 So, that's why we have, you know, because ultimately, even the pro-abortion movement

00:05:54.440 today, you know, we think, well, if they can just realize that this is a human being,

00:05:59.520 well, then everyone will stop doing abortions. 1.00

00:06:01.880 But the kind of the pro-abortion, the intellectuals, the scholars in the pro-abortion movement

00:06:06.280 today, many of them have conceded, okay, it's a human being, but mother's rights trump the

00:06:12.600 baby's rights.

00:06:13.340 Exactly.

00:06:13.920 And it's like, again, without an absolute standard of God's word, okay, how do you argue

00:06:20.980 against that?

00:06:21.820 Other than to say, that sounds really bad, and that's out of, out of touch with history.

00:06:26.520 It's like, yeah, but there's good things that have sounded bad and been out of touch with

00:06:29.780 history, too.

00:06:30.360 So, how do you judge?

00:06:31.880 You got to have an absolute standard, and that's what God's word gives us.

00:06:34.660 Right.

00:06:35.580 And you would say, or abolitionists would say, in general, again, this is another movement

00:06:40.160 that's made up of individuals, so there's going to be some variation there, that while

00:06:44.820 pro-lifers would say that they agree that life inside the womb matters, life starts at

00:06:52.140 conception, and they would deny this whole bodily autonomy, my body, my choice argument,

00:06:59.120 I do hear abolitionists say a lot, though, that this kind of second victim mentality that

00:07:07.020 a lot of pro-lifers have, that the woman is also like an equal victim of abortion as the

00:07:12.120 child, inhibits most pro-lifers from actually doing justice when it comes to the unborn, because

00:07:18.580 they're unwilling to go to the point of legal equal protection.

00:07:23.420 So, talk about that distinction between abolitionists and most pro-lifers.

00:07:27.880 Yeah.

00:07:28.060 Well, that kind of goes back to when I say I believe that murdering anyone should be illegal

00:07:33.400 for everyone.

00:07:34.480 Like, the general pro-life movement, certainly the pro-life lobby, as I would put it, the

00:07:38.580 people pushing the policy and the legislation around the country, they don't agree with that.

00:07:42.500 They believe that, you know, aborting a child should be illegal for everyone except for the

00:07:49.120 mother.

00:07:49.840 And you can go look at the bills that are being introduced and passed around the country for

00:07:53.460 the last 50 years, and that's exactly what they all say.

00:07:56.560 They say, you know, abortion is illegal. 0.71

00:07:58.940 You write the best bills, we would say, ban all clinic abortions, ban all abortionists,

00:08:05.560 but then says, but this does not apply to the mother.

00:08:08.000 To the woman. 0.67

00:08:08.580 Right, and so then what happens is, you know, you're really doing a couple of things on a

00:08:14.440 principle level that are wrong, right?

00:08:16.880 Both first, biblically, you are doing something that God expressly forbids.

00:08:22.420 God says, you shall not show partiality in judgment.

00:08:26.580 He says this throughout Scripture, that you should not show partiality in judgment.

00:08:32.360 What is partiality?

00:08:34.100 Partiality is, in Hebrew, that word means regarding faces.

00:08:39.280 So, in other words, whenever it comes to judge a case, right, people are commonly seeing

00:08:44.080 like Lady Justice holding the scales of justice, and Lady Justice is typically blind, and so 1.00

00:08:50.040 that's what justice should be.

00:08:51.900 It should be blind to who these parties are, right?

00:08:55.180 Are these parties, is one of them rich and one of them poor?

00:08:57.900 Is one of them strong and one of them weak?

00:08:59.840 Is one of them a woman, one of them a man, or one of them this skin color or that skin color? 0.62

00:09:03.400 Or in this case, is one of them born or one of them not yet born?

00:09:06.860 Or is this the mother or her child, right?

00:09:10.520 Justice says you don't take those factors into consideration as far as determining the

00:09:16.860 outcome of the case.

00:09:18.040 You take what happened here, right?

00:09:20.380 What is murder?

00:09:21.760 It's two elements to murder, causing the death of an individual with criminal intent, right?

00:09:28.120 That's what murder is.

00:09:29.100 It's not based upon, well, is this individual born yet or not?

00:09:34.280 Or is this individual this or that, right?

00:09:36.880 At that point, once you start looking at that, now you're showing partiality, which God expressly

00:09:42.220 forbids doing that.

00:09:43.280 So just to read the specific scripture, this is something we've talked about a lot, partiality,

00:09:48.220 especially when it comes to so-called social and racial justice.

00:09:52.120 We talked a lot about this in the summer of 2020.

00:09:56.020 This passage, Leviticus 19.15,

00:09:59.720 You shall do no injustice in court.

00:10:02.120 You shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you

00:10:08.500 judge your neighbor.

00:10:09.660 So you can't defer to someone or show partiality to someone because you think they're weak or

00:10:16.040 you think they're oppressed or you think they're marginalized or because they have a

00:10:20.140 certain status of power that you think would be helpful to you or whatever.

00:10:24.040 So what you're arguing is that this doesn't just go for the so-called equity progressive

00:10:28.700 agenda with black and white, rich and poor, oppressed and oppressor, but it also comes to a woman and 0.99

00:10:35.460 her child that if we are willing to punish the doctor or punish the other people involved and

00:10:42.220 not the woman, we are showing partiality.

00:10:45.100 We're showing partiality to the woman, I guess, just because of our sense of pity and compassion,

00:10:51.180 which I can really empathize with because a lot of women who have abortions are victims 1.00

00:10:57.160 of something.

00:10:58.620 They're often victims of abuse, victims of neglect.

00:11:01.440 Their victims, very often, I've talked to people who used to work at Planned Parenthood of

00:11:06.360 misinformation, they're expressly told this is not a human, this is not a child, this is

00:11:12.440 a blob.

00:11:13.620 I mean, even the media, we see, oh, look at what this fetus looks like or whatever they

00:11:21.080 would call it, pregnancy tissue looks like at nine weeks.

00:11:24.000 And they show something that is not scientifically accurate.

00:11:27.280 It looks like, you know, wadded up tissue paper.

00:11:30.820 So some people really are totally ignorant.

00:11:33.800 So what do we do with that?

00:11:35.480 Like, how do we pair the compassion that we have for the women who are victims with everything

00:11:41.340 that you're saying that I believe to be true?

00:11:43.540 Right.

00:11:44.920 Impartial, righteous justice and truly fighting for the full dignity and rights of that baby in the womb.

00:11:51.200 Yeah.

00:11:51.420 Well, I mean, there's a lot right there.

00:11:53.440 You know, first of all, just on the partiality, you know, we just had a ruling from the Supreme

00:11:57.120 Court recently on affirmative action where they said, hey, you can't use someone's skin

00:12:01.740 color in determining, you know, who you admit to your college or who you don't.

00:12:06.160 Right.

00:12:06.480 Right.

00:12:06.660 They said, basically, you can't show partiality in deciding admissions for colleges.

00:12:11.440 How much more so when we're talking about protecting a person from murder?

00:12:15.480 We certainly shouldn't be showing partiality there.

00:12:17.420 You know, as far as women who are victims, there certainly are. 1.00

00:12:21.780 I mean, there's a sense in which everybody's a victim, right?

00:12:24.260 We're all victims of the society that we live in, the misinformation that's fed to us,

00:12:29.220 the cultural things that we see in the media.

00:12:32.400 And so there's one sense that, hey, we've all been lied to.

00:12:35.620 We've all heard misinformation.

00:12:37.620 You know, there's another extent to which how many of us have swallowed it willfully because

00:12:41.740 it goes along with, you know, what we already want.

00:12:44.920 But to a certain extent, everyone's victims.

00:12:46.600 And then, you know, there certainly are women who are victims against more specifically,

00:12:50.900 like you're talking about.

00:12:52.200 They've been abused.

00:12:53.120 They've been neglected.

00:12:53.940 They've been, you know, lied to by the abortion industry.

00:12:57.780 And absolutely, you know, they're victims in that sense as well.

00:13:01.220 But there's a difference, you know, between that kind of victimhood and what I would call

00:13:05.260 legal victimhood, right?

00:13:07.120 Legally, we have victims under law where someone can say, hey, yes, I technically committed this

00:13:14.320 crime or this act, which is a criminal, but I did it in such a way that I'm a victim and

00:13:20.360 I shouldn't be prosecuted for it.

00:13:21.480 Like they were forced to.

00:13:23.420 Exactly.

00:13:23.540 They were told by their trafficker or pimp, if you don't do this, I'm going to kill you.

00:13:27.860 Exactly.

00:13:28.200 Kind of thing.

00:13:28.740 That's right.

00:13:29.120 So that person, we call that duress in most states and some states call that coercion.

00:13:34.440 And so if someone is basically under threat of life or limb, if they don't go through

00:13:38.240 with this thing, well, then yes, we already have that built into our justice system, that

00:13:42.080 that person is, you know, immune or excused from liability, you know, for those actions.

00:13:48.900 It's like a person who, you know, you're in your car at the local convenience store and

00:13:52.440 somebody jumps in, puts a gun to your head and says, hey, you're my getaway driver now.

00:13:55.680 And you drive them away.

00:13:57.060 Yes, you've technically committed a crime because you're aiding and abetting this person

00:14:00.920 who's committing a crime, but you did it under duress.

00:14:04.380 Someone had a gun to your head.

00:14:05.620 So certainly women who were in that situation, absolutely.

00:14:09.060 Our law would already say, yes, you are a legal victim and you should not be in any way

00:14:13.760 liable for your actions there.

00:14:15.880 Or we also have in the legal realm, something called mistake of fact.

00:14:20.140 And that is someone did something, but they didn't really know what they were doing.

00:14:25.060 Right.

00:14:25.180 You've heard of like mistake of the law and everybody has heard, I think, mistake of the

00:14:29.160 law is no excuse, but mistake of fact is if you truly did not know what you are doing,

00:14:34.460 then yeah, you're not going to be held accountable for that.

00:14:37.940 Right.

00:14:38.360 Right.

00:14:38.640 And there's certainly women who fall into that category as well. 0.99

00:14:41.400 So as an abolitionist, what equal protection means, and that's a constitutional phrase we

00:14:45.480 can talk about, but what equal protection means is that, you know, right now the laws are

00:14:52.060 written in such a way that mothers, right, the mothers who abort their children have just

00:14:56.000 absolute immunity, no matter how not victims they are, right?

00:15:00.000 In every single state.

00:15:01.280 In every single state.

00:15:02.280 Is there any state legislation that applies any kind of criminal penalties, fines, community

00:15:06.840 service, anything to the woman who has an abortion?

00:15:08.980 The closest is Oklahoma, but even there, the attorney general has not interpreted that to

00:15:13.320 apply to the woman. 0.85

00:15:14.200 So I would say, no, there's not a single state that in any way has any kind of liability for

00:15:18.560 the mothers.

00:15:19.040 There's a couple of states that you could argue do, but there's enormous loopholes, so

00:15:24.260 they really don't.

00:15:25.740 So that's the way that the laws are written.

00:15:28.320 That's the way the pro-life movement is written, laws, and that's what abolitionists, what we're

00:15:31.740 saying, that's not just.

00:15:33.560 Yeah.

00:15:33.800 That's not justice.

00:15:34.700 You know, above the Supreme Court, you walk up to the Supreme Court, it says equal justice

00:15:38.520 under law, right?

00:15:39.880 That's not equal justice. 0.59

00:15:40.940 That's not equal protection, as the Constitution says, and it's certainly not impartiality.

00:15:46.960 So you're kind of arguing that the pro-lifers, even though they say that they don't, they

00:15:51.440 kind of do give in to the same idea that pro-choicers do, pro-abortionists do, that life inside

00:15:58.020 the womb is different.

00:15:59.240 It's a little less valuable.

00:16:01.120 Sure, we say that it's a human being, but it's different than, or it should be treated

00:16:08.340 differently than a woman who hires a hit man to kill her three-year-old.

00:16:13.940 We would advocate, all of us would say, yeah, that woman should be liable. 1.00

00:16:18.880 She should be held accountable for hiring someone to murder her toddler. 0.88

00:16:23.720 But we say if she hires someone to murder her baby inside the womb, she shouldn't be held 0.98

00:16:29.740 accountable.

00:16:30.300 And that shows that in our minds, we hold the distinction between the value of a three-year-old

00:16:36.980 and the value of the baby inside the womb, even though we would argue all day that we

00:16:43.920 don't as pro-lifers, that that's actually one of the arguments that we make to pro-choicers,

00:16:49.440 that there is no distinction.

00:16:50.680 And yet, because we are unwilling to allow women to go through due process, because that's 1.00

00:16:57.060 what you're arguing for.

00:16:58.280 Every situation would be different.

00:17:00.120 It wouldn't be, oh, you heard someone had an abortion, and so immediately she's going 1.00

00:17:04.680 to jail.

00:17:05.600 You would go through due process, and you would figure out, was she coerced?

00:17:09.920 Was she a victim?

00:17:11.540 Did she really, was she 12 years old and really had no idea?

00:17:15.760 Obviously, she would be a victim there too, but she had no idea what was going on.

00:17:19.980 So that's what you're advocating for.

00:17:21.940 You're advocating for her to go through due process, and that that would be real justice

00:17:27.260 for the unborn child.

00:17:29.200 Right, exactly.

00:17:29.860 I mean, again, you talk about the pro-life movement that, yes, has said these things,

00:17:34.560 but actions speak louder than words, right?

00:17:36.880 We say the baby in the womb is just as valuable as the person outside the womb, but actions 0.98

00:17:42.180 speak louder than words.

00:17:43.180 And that's where we need to really repent of being discriminatory toward children in

00:17:50.560 the womb.

00:17:51.620 And we've said, I mean, just imagine that for a born person, right?

00:17:54.420 If we were to say, well, you know, we're going to allow this certain class of people to murder

00:18:00.500 you and for there to be no consequences for that.

00:18:02.600 I mean, that's totally absurd.

00:18:04.280 Yeah.

00:18:04.520 That's absurd.

00:18:05.440 But yet, that's where we are.

00:18:07.180 That's where we've been in the pro-life movement.

00:18:09.180 So yes, due process is exactly what we're calling for, right?

00:18:13.260 The 14th Amendment of the Constitution says no state shall deny to any person within its

00:18:19.580 jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws, right?

00:18:22.560 So the pro-life movement, we said a fetus is a person.

00:18:26.180 Well, then that means that the Constitution is not neutral on the issue of abortion.

00:18:29.660 It means it says states shall not deny equal protection to those persons, equal protection

00:18:34.560 of the laws.

00:18:35.460 So that means every time we write a bill that says this doesn't apply to the mother, then

00:18:42.600 we are violating the U.S. Constitution, and we're violating God's Word, which says you

00:18:47.840 shall not show partiality.

00:18:49.780 And I think that's why we've gotten where we are.

00:18:53.020 And so what we're calling for is, no, the law should be the same.

00:18:56.040 And it really doesn't require writing new laws, right?

00:18:58.500 We already have laws against homicide in all 50 states, but then they have these exceptions

00:19:02.720 for mothers in abortions.

00:19:05.400 And you talk about, you know, a mother who hires an assassin for a three-year-old.

00:19:09.560 You know, what's happening with abortion today, even a few years ago, is that it's not the

00:19:14.520 mother hiring an assassin. 1.00

00:19:16.200 It's she is the abortionist, right?

00:19:19.660 Like with the medication.

00:19:20.300 She is the one performing the abortion.

00:19:21.940 Because medication abortion several years ago became, you know, over the majority of abortions.

00:19:28.900 And now today, even in states that claim to be abortion-free after the Dobbs case, overturned

00:19:34.160 Roe, which we're grateful for.

00:19:36.040 But nevertheless, even in those states, mothers are still ordering abortion pills, getting them 0.98

00:19:42.340 delivered, and doing their own abortions at home. 0.59

00:19:44.940 In all 50 states, none of that's illegal for a woman to order Mifepristone and the other 0.90

00:19:54.540 abortion medication that escapes my mind right now to abort her child. 1.00

00:19:58.820 That's legal in all 50 states?

00:20:00.540 Yes.

00:20:01.220 Wow.

00:20:02.540 So the overturning of Roe v. Wade, obviously we all celebrated that. 0.97

00:20:07.000 Right.

00:20:07.240 Um, but something I've heard abolitionists say is what you just said, that abortion is

00:20:11.260 still legal in all 50 states and that the laws that have been passed that say we're protecting

00:20:21.520 unborn life after Roe v. Wade haven't really done that because they failed to meet that equal

00:20:27.760 protection standard.

00:20:29.140 But abolitionist laws have been proposed in most of these states.

00:20:34.420 Who's been the biggest opposition to those bills?

00:20:37.940 The pro-choicers or the, uh, mainstream kind of pro-life organizations?

00:20:44.200 I wish I could say it was the pro-choicers, the pro-abortion organizations, but the bills

00:20:48.700 that we've introduced in, you know, 15, 16 states now, um, have been opposed and ultimately

00:20:55.860 killed by the pro-life organizations, pro-life lobbying organizations, and pro-life politicians

00:21:02.300 across the board.

00:21:03.420 We just had one just, uh, a couple of months ago that I went and testified for in Missouri

00:21:09.080 that, uh, they, they allowed two people, they only allowed us five minutes for all the

00:21:13.560 testimony in this committee.

00:21:15.280 And, uh, so there were two of us that testified in favor of the bill, and then there was only

00:21:19.460 time for two to testify against the bill.

00:21:21.620 And the two that testified against the bill was the two largest pro-life organizations in

00:21:28.020 Missouri, uh, Missouri Right to Life and Campaign Life Missouri.

00:21:31.580 And, and that's what we've seen, again, not just in Missouri, but really across the country

00:21:35.660 because of, you know, the, the, the mentality of the pro-life lobby that no mothers have

00:21:44.980 to have complete immunity in every state.

00:21:47.980 And what we're saying, what we're calling for is not the opposite of that.

00:21:51.660 We're not saying, no, every mother must get, you know, must, must be thrown in jail, period, 0.97

00:21:56.160 regardless of what the, you know, what the allegations are, what the circumstances are.

00:21:59.940 No, all we're saying is, what's the justice system that protects born people?

00:22:03.640 We're calling for that same justice system to protect people before they're born. 0.97

00:22:08.940 And what does that look like?

00:22:10.000 Well, there is a presumption.

00:22:11.980 Everybody's heard about, you're presumed innocent until proven guilty, right?

00:22:16.400 So there is a presumption that everyone is a victim and that everyone is innocent, right?

00:22:20.740 That should still continue to, to apply.

00:22:22.980 And so we do say that, yeah, let's presume that everyone is innocent and that everyone

00:22:27.100 is a victim and then let's require the government to prove beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury

00:22:34.640 of their peers who've been indicted by a jury of their peers, uh, before a judge that they

00:22:41.800 have committed this crime.

00:22:42.880 And there's every opportunity then for them to argue duress, or I didn't know, or what

00:22:48.880 have you.

00:22:49.560 And then there's multiple appellate courts that then review all of that, governors or boards

00:22:54.220 of paroles or pardons in every state can then review that and even pardon people if they

00:22:58.500 don't think it was a just outcome.

00:23:00.120 So that's the justice system that we already trust and we are, it's not perfect, right?

00:23:04.980 And there's plenty of improvements that could be made there, but that's the justice system

00:23:08.260 we have protecting our own lives and born people.

00:23:10.780 We're just calling that that justice system should be the one that also protects people

00:23:13.960 before they're born.

00:23:16.180 And I think I know what you'll say to this, but I'm trying to anticipate some of the questions

00:23:19.620 that my audience will have.

00:23:21.280 Do you fear or would there be a legitimate concern that this would put at risk women who

00:23:27.940 have had ectopic pregnancies or have had a miscarriage and someone then accuses them of

00:23:35.820 aborting their child?

00:23:37.220 Or sometimes you have to take the same medications or go through a D and C after you've naturally

00:23:42.100 miscarried your child.

00:23:44.340 And if someone accused them of murder, okay, well then you've got the tragedy of losing your

00:23:49.360 child via miscarriage, ectopic pregnancy, and then you get convicted of murder because

00:23:54.380 the child inside your womb died. 0.70

00:23:56.640 I don't know if pro-lifers would say, well, that's part of the reason why we want these

00:24:00.720 protections from others because there are so many different situations in which it would

00:24:04.580 not be helpful for this woman to have to appear in a court of law. 1.00

00:24:10.460 What do you say to something like that?

00:24:12.060 I think a lot of that is kind of buying into the pro-abortion scare tactics.

00:24:17.240 I don't really think that's very likely, right?

00:24:20.820 For one thing, you know, to even investigate kind of the process to even get to having someone

00:24:28.860 in court requires that there be a report made.

00:24:31.940 Hey, I suspect that someone has murdered somebody else, which then law enforcement then begins

00:24:36.720 investigating, which then, hey, if they want to dig deeper, they have to go to a judge and

00:24:42.760 prove that there's probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed, which a judge

00:24:47.140 then gives them a warrant to go dig deeper.

00:24:49.980 And again, at this point, this person is not, they don't even know that any of this is going

00:24:55.360 on.

00:24:55.780 And then if they believe that there is probable cause, that a crime has been committed, then

00:25:01.000 they can go to a grand jury and get an indictment.

00:25:04.380 And if the grand jury agrees that there's probable cause, then at that point, the person can be

00:25:08.920 charged and arrested.

00:25:10.820 So there's a lot of people that have to agree that a crime has been committed before we even

00:25:15.660 get to someone having to defend themselves in court.

00:25:19.720 But I think the likely, and the bars are pretty high to really get to that.

00:25:24.140 So I think it's, it's, I think it's a scare tactic that people use, um, that that's not

00:25:29.880 happening today.

00:25:31.000 Again, pro-abortion, they're, they're using that today.

00:25:33.480 They're saying, oh, your law is banning abortion.

00:25:35.560 Women are, it's not happening. 1.00

00:25:37.740 It's not happening today.

00:25:39.100 And it wouldn't happen under an abolition bill.

00:25:41.400 And as far as ectopics and those sorts of things, again, our bills, um, you know, make

00:25:46.540 provision that, yeah, that's not, that's not murder.

00:25:49.060 No one is wanting for this baby to die.

00:25:52.260 Everyone's trying to save as many people as they possibly can and doing everything that

00:25:56.480 they can to save as many as possible.

00:25:58.020 Well, yeah, that's, that's excluded.

00:25:59.500 And that's not what we're talking about here.

00:26:01.780 So you would say in states where the death penalty is on the table for murderers, that

00:26:07.100 a woman who self-medicates, self-induces an abortion, that the death penalty should be 1.00

00:26:12.500 on the table for her too.

00:26:14.220 I think it should be.

00:26:15.240 I think it should be on the table.

00:26:16.540 It's something for the, for the jury to consider.

00:26:18.180 And, you know, you think about, uh, you know, I was at the, our organization, along with

00:26:24.160 20 other organizations and 20 state legislators, we submitted a brief in the Dobbs case and

00:26:28.820 we were there on December 1st, 2022, when the case was being argued and they're right

00:26:33.880 in front of the court.

00:26:34.820 There were women out there shouting their abortions, taking abortion pills, killing their children 1.00

00:26:40.400 right there in broad daylight in front of everyone, you know, celebrating it.

00:26:45.280 So, right, at some point you've got to say, well, yeah, some people are, they're, they're

00:26:51.720 doing it with such malice.

00:26:53.280 They know exactly what they're doing.

00:26:54.780 They're doing it with malice.

00:26:56.360 Um, that's why we have the death penalty, right?

00:26:58.920 Or, or someone, you know, and again, I think the death penalty is biblical.

00:27:03.040 God says when he first institutes civil government, Genesis 9, he says,

00:27:07.500 Genesis 9, 6.

00:27:08.420 Whoever sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed. 0.58

00:27:12.220 And some people may say, well, that's, that's an Old Testament thing.

00:27:15.120 But then in the New Testament, Romans 13, right?

00:27:17.760 The government does not bear the sword in vain, right?

00:27:20.860 But they're God's ministers of justice.

00:27:23.080 Well, the sword is not a tool of chastisement or imprisonment.

00:27:27.820 It's a tool of execution.

00:27:29.800 And so both Old Testament and New Testament, I think God says that the death penalty is

00:27:34.200 the proper response for someone who maliciously takes human life.

00:27:39.660 And so absolutely, I think it should be on the table.

00:27:42.340 And again, that, that just tells us how serious God treats human life and how valuable human

00:27:50.660 life is.

00:27:51.800 And again, he says why right there in Genesis 9, because we're made in his image.

00:27:56.560 Yeah.

00:27:56.780 And I am against this kind of second victim mentality that I do see from a lot of people

00:28:03.060 that every woman who has had an abortion is a victim.

00:28:07.460 Now, some women who have abortions are victims. 1.00

00:28:10.740 Absolutely.

00:28:11.820 But someone is not a victim because she had an abortion.

00:28:15.640 She may be a victim because of other things that have happened to her.

00:28:18.620 Absolutely.

00:28:19.340 But she's not an automatic victim because she chose to have an abortion. 1.00

00:28:24.580 And you're right.

00:28:25.080 We've seen shout your, we hear a lot from the pro-choice side.

00:28:28.320 No one is pro-abortion.

00:28:29.900 No one celebrates abortion.

00:28:31.580 But you see the shout your abortion rhetoric.

00:28:33.940 You see the kind of malice.

00:28:35.680 There was this awful, awful video that I don't even think I've played.

00:28:39.220 I'm not sure if I reacted to it or not.

00:28:40.940 Of this man who said that he wanted a uterus transplant just so he could be the first so-called

00:28:47.160 trans woman, aka man, to have an abortion. 0.88

00:28:50.840 And so there is like a, there is a bloodlust there.

00:28:53.460 And I do think that we have to just be honest about that and say, well, why shouldn't?

00:28:58.920 Like we see someone who is celebrating the murder of a human being, someone who pro-life

00:29:04.080 for a say is a human being.

00:29:05.100 Why shouldn't that person be held accountable at all?

00:29:09.680 Um, but it's, I mean, it's an uncomfortable thing.

00:29:13.540 It is, it's really uncomfortable because in that category, and I know that people are

00:29:17.580 gonna say, well, that's just feelings.

00:29:18.920 I understand that.

00:29:19.960 I'm someone who speaks against like allowing feelings to dictate right and wrong and like

00:29:25.200 what the law is.

00:29:26.060 But gosh, there are so many women I know who I love, whom God has redeemed to have had

00:29:31.980 abortions. 0.94

00:29:32.680 And God has used their story, used their testimony.

00:29:35.080 They've gone on to have lots of beautiful children and gosh, God has just used their

00:29:39.900 platform and their testimony so much and so powerfully.

00:29:43.520 It's really hard for me to picture that woman in jail.

00:29:47.120 And it's not, and I understand there's some cognitive dissonance there.

00:29:50.060 I understand.

00:29:51.600 I'm just being honest that that's difficult for me, that I love those women so much.

00:29:55.640 And I'm glad that they're out in the world sharing their testimony that what Satan meant

00:30:00.660 for evil, God is then using for good.

00:30:03.180 And, but at the same time, I totally understand what you're saying.

00:30:07.560 The impartiality that is needed to enact true justice, the truly believing and acting upon

00:30:13.940 the belief that that child is an image bearer of God and that they need the equal protection.

00:30:19.120 Um, so that's just where, I don't know, you know, my, my, my feelings and my logic kind

00:30:25.200 of duke it out.

00:30:26.580 Well, and I think that's, I mean, that's appropriate, right?

00:30:29.200 There's people that you love and you want, you don't want to think of them, wow, that they

00:30:32.180 would go to prison.

00:30:33.160 But the thing is, we're not talking about going backwards, right?

00:30:36.180 We're not talking about going backwards and imprisoning or prosecuting people who've

00:30:39.240 had abortions in the past, you know, before a bill of abolition would be passed, right?

00:30:43.280 No, our, our laws have told people that this is legal.

00:30:46.540 So of course it would be unjust, it would be unconstitutional, it would be wrong for

00:30:50.260 us to go back and try to prosecute anybody, right?

00:30:52.940 But picture the people that you're thinking about or the people that your viewers may be

00:30:57.340 thinking about and think about, would they have had an abortion if it had been illegal, 0.98

00:31:03.940 perhaps even up to death penalty, to get to do that abortion? 1.00

00:31:07.240 And the answer is almost certainly no.

00:31:09.860 And a lot of the women we talk to that are abolitionists, they say, that have had abortions,

00:31:15.040 they say, I wish it had been illegal.

00:31:17.440 I wish it had been considered murder for me to do this to my child, because then I never

00:31:21.900 would have done it.

00:31:23.860 You know, because these are law-abiding women, like, and if the law made it murder, then they 1.00

00:31:29.440 would not have violated it.

00:31:30.780 And that's...

00:31:31.180 I just got a message this morning from someone saying that, that she said, 19 years later,

00:31:35.440 it haunts me every day.

00:31:36.680 I so wish I hadn't made that choice.

00:31:38.100 And, like, she does struggle with the emotions of it, because, of course, she would like to...

00:31:44.640 It's hard for her to picture herself going to prison instead of living the life that she

00:31:48.920 does now, in retrospect.

00:31:50.820 But she said, if it had been illegal, I wouldn't have done it.

00:31:53.640 And that's the whole point, right?

00:31:55.160 The purpose...

00:31:55.760 I'd say there's three purposes of the law.

00:31:57.980 Number one is to teach people what's right and what's wrong, to reflect God's character

00:32:03.340 and his value, and that's one purpose of making it, okay, then let's make it where it treats

00:32:09.980 this child the same as, you know, me and you, that we're all equally valuable.

00:32:14.960 That's the first purpose of the law, is a tutor, as Scripture calls it.

00:32:18.700 Right?

00:32:18.880 Then secondly, the next purpose of the law is to deter.

00:32:22.060 It's to prevent people or to deter people from committing crimes.

00:32:27.860 You know, someone who, like, okay, they don't...

00:32:29.940 They're not taught by the law, but they can be deterred from committing the crime.

00:32:35.400 And that's what we want.

00:32:37.740 And then the third function of the law is, okay, if someone's not taught and not deterred

00:32:41.760 and they still go through with that, then it's to provide justice for the victim.

00:32:47.300 And that's exactly what should happen when it comes to abortion. 1.00

00:32:51.000 And again, if an abolition bill passes and provides equal protection, I would expect that many of

00:32:57.140 the people who would have otherwise gotten an abortion, they instead say, I don't want

00:33:01.620 to be subject to, you know, being prosecuted for that.

00:33:05.000 So I'm not going to do that.

00:33:06.420 And again, that's what's mercy...

00:33:08.040 That's true mercy.

00:33:09.500 That's what mercy really is.

00:33:11.000 Mercy isn't saying, oh, there should be no penalty whatsoever, because that just then

00:33:15.640 says, okay, it's right to do this thing.

00:33:18.540 Right?

00:33:18.740 Mercy is saying, it's putting up barriers and making it difficult and saying, no, if you

00:33:24.700 do do this thing, these are the consequences that God has prescribed here, and then they

00:33:29.040 don't go through with it and they have their child, right?

00:33:31.800 That's merciful.

00:33:32.760 And that's what we want to be.

00:33:34.060 And so to those who say, because I've seen this, of course, in the media saying abolitionists

00:33:39.260 are misogynists, very extreme misogynists, like you would say, no, it's actually for

00:33:46.060 the love of women and the love of their children, of course, that we want to put up every

00:33:51.900 obstacle that we possibly can, so that they won't go through this thing that will wreck

00:33:57.640 their life, it will wreck their heart, and it will also wreck the life of their child.

00:34:04.440 So you would say it's motivated by love and mercy, not by some bitterness towards women.

00:34:10.600 Absolutely.

00:34:11.260 It's not...

00:34:11.760 It's not...

00:34:12.200 I love women. 1.00

00:34:13.720 You know, I'm grateful for my mom, I'm grateful for my wife and all of our children.

00:34:17.140 I'm grateful for the God's created woman. 0.98

00:34:19.660 It's not good for man to be alone, right?

00:34:21.480 We need one another, men and women.

00:34:24.020 And God's created us both equally valuable and equally in His image, and so I'm grateful

00:34:30.400 for that.

00:34:30.980 So it's not against women.

00:34:32.680 It's not saying, oh, I'm trying to control your body.

00:34:35.580 It's no.

00:34:37.340 That life is just as valuable as your life, and you were once in the womb, right?

00:34:42.060 And I'm saying your life in the womb should be protected.

00:34:45.100 You know, slightly over half of babies in the womb are female, and we want them protected

00:34:53.360 just as much as everybody else.

00:34:54.800 So it's certainly not misogynist in any way, as I would describe misogyny.

00:34:58.900 Yeah.

00:34:59.240 But instead...

00:35:00.100 But yeah, men should be.

00:35:02.060 Men should be standing up and fighting to protect women and children.

00:35:05.360 And I know that sounds sexist to some, but to me, that's our God-given role to do that.

00:35:10.340 So one thing that I have a hard time with is there's a couple things with the abolition

00:35:17.260 movement.

00:35:18.420 And one is the complete opposition to any form of incrementalism.

00:35:26.020 So the opposition to any bill that restricts abortion, because obviously you don't want to

00:35:35.040 just restrict murder.

00:35:36.280 You want to abolish murder.

00:35:38.040 And I understand the reasoning for supporting laws, supporting bills that abolish abortion.

00:35:45.760 But you will also oppose any resolution or any legislation that does not fully abolish

00:35:53.520 abortion.

00:35:53.920 And you will say, no, I'm not going to cheer for a 20-week ban.

00:35:57.120 I'm not going to cheer for a six-week ban, because this still allows murder in some cases.

00:36:01.720 What do you say to those who say, okay, I'm with you, but this is better than nothing.

00:36:08.940 We're still making it harder for women to have abortions. 1.00

00:36:13.280 We're still putting an obstacle in the way.

00:36:17.000 And while it might be small in the grand scheme of things, there have been fewer abortions

00:36:23.320 since these laws were passed, since the overturning of Roe v. Wade in the last year.

00:36:30.080 Like, shouldn't we at least be on board with the legislation that we can get passed?

00:36:37.280 Yeah.

00:36:38.000 So obviously there's a lot to that.

00:36:41.040 And, you know, we all want to pass whatever we can to protect as many lives as we possibly

00:36:46.580 can.

00:36:46.940 But there's, you know, the Bible talks about we don't do evil that good may come, right?

00:36:52.980 The ends don't justify the means.

00:36:54.900 So we have to ask, okay, you know, we can use practical, you know, some may call pragmatism

00:37:02.420 to decide what we do and where we do it.

00:37:05.460 And, you know, really it's everything is increments in terms of step by step, right?

00:37:11.640 Everything that we accomplish is step by step.

00:37:13.460 We're human beings bound by time and space.

00:37:15.300 And so everything is chronological step by step.

00:37:18.680 But, you know, that's why, you know, some would call it incrementalism is whenever you

00:37:24.600 are actually compromising principles, but kind of because the ends justify the means.

00:37:31.900 And what I would say is what is the limiting principle to that, right?

00:37:35.520 Where do you cross the threshold to where you say, okay, well, that means at that point

00:37:40.540 that becomes off limits, right?

00:37:43.820 What means and methods of abolishing abortion are off limits.

00:37:48.200 And as an abolitionist, I would say means and methods that violate God's word, not just

00:37:54.620 because they fall short of perfect justice, but because God explicitly prohibits them.

00:38:04.420 So those methods of trying to abolish abortion are off limits to us.

00:38:09.300 So when God says, you shall not show partiality, that means, I believe, we shall not and we should

00:38:17.800 not support any bill that writes an exception from others or that says, oh, well, this only

00:38:28.000 protects you if you're six weeks old.

00:38:29.340 Because they violate God's law, right?

00:38:32.720 I think that's our limiting principle when we say, okay, we can compromise.

00:38:37.680 Hey, I'm a lawyer.

00:38:38.920 We negotiate, right?

00:38:40.100 I'm all for compromising and people, everybody gives a little.

00:38:43.120 But there's a point at which compromise becomes wrong.

00:38:46.680 And that's whenever you're compromising principles.

00:38:48.740 And so whenever we're actually violating God's word, showing partiality and judgment, that's

00:38:55.140 wrong.

00:38:55.520 We shouldn't do that.

00:38:56.460 And that's what those bills do.

00:38:57.960 And they do that.

00:38:59.220 And they also violate the U.S. Constitution, which says no state should deny equal protection

00:39:04.040 of the laws.

00:39:05.300 Well, does this bill deny equal protection of the laws?

00:39:09.500 Well, then it's constitutionally prohibited.

00:39:11.780 And you, as legislators, have sworn an oath to the Constitution, as I have as an attorney.

00:39:17.080 And so that is not open to you.

00:39:19.700 That kind of going that route and that means to try to do something good, yes, the motives

00:39:25.760 may be great, but that method is not open to us.

00:39:29.720 So you think all Christian voters and legislators should oppose any legislation that simply restricts

00:39:37.660 abortion and does not abolish it?

00:39:39.500 They should not vote yes, for example, on a heartbeat bill.

00:39:43.260 I think if it denies equal protection, if it shows partiality, then they should oppose

00:39:48.000 that.

00:39:48.680 Okay.

00:39:49.540 So if every Republican legislator did that, if, but I can kind of already see the response

00:39:55.700 to what I'm about to say, but I'll let you do it.

00:39:57.640 If every Republican legislator did that, if they said, I'm not going to vote yes on a six

00:40:04.360 week ban or something like that, I guess the argument would be, well, then they would support

00:40:09.700 the abolitionist bill and then that would be a good thing.

00:40:12.120 And then abortion would be abolished. 0.61

00:40:14.120 Or I don't know if a significant number, say a significant number of Republicans across

00:40:19.560 the state legislatures said, I'm not going to support these restrictionist, incrementalist,

00:40:25.960 pragmatist bills, only equal protection.

00:40:28.760 And they stood in the way of, say, a six week ban getting passed, but they didn't have

00:40:34.380 enough votes to get an abolitionist bill passed.

00:40:37.960 I mean, we would obviously be looking at a lot of states that would restrict abortion

00:40:42.000 a lot less than they do now.

00:40:43.420 We'd probably be looking at a lot more dead babies. 0.98

00:40:46.840 And so I understand that that's the pragmatist mentality, but that's just what I keep thinking

00:40:51.820 about, you know, the babies and the babies that are actually protected from these imperfect

00:40:57.520 laws.

00:40:58.020 It's hard for me to say, well, no, I'm not going to protect those babies in any way because

00:41:04.140 this bill isn't exactly, you know, what we want it to be or what we believe it should be.

00:41:09.620 Right.

00:41:10.200 Well, I mean, ultimately we're called to be faithful to what God says and we leave the

00:41:14.200 results to Him.

00:41:14.960 That said, I think even in the long term, I think far more babies will die because we

00:41:21.900 compromise these principles.

00:41:23.340 I think far more babies have died over the last 50 years because we have been compromising

00:41:27.860 these principles.

00:41:28.700 We've not been consistent.

00:41:30.060 Our actions and our words have not been in alignment.

00:41:33.000 And so far more babies have died.

00:41:35.320 And so that's, you know, even today you look at a state that passes a heartbeat bill.

00:41:40.720 There's one major conservative state that passed a heartbeat bill, you know, a couple

00:41:44.620 of years ago and people came out to the governor and said, well, what about mothers, you know,

00:41:48.720 who are raped? 1.00

00:41:49.680 And he says, oh, well, they still have six weeks.

00:41:52.580 Right.

00:41:53.020 A heartbeat bill doesn't protect a single baby from being aborted.

00:41:56.300 It just means that they have to be aborted earlier.

00:41:58.880 And you go stand outside of clinics, you know, like a state in Georgia, I heard the other

00:42:02.420 day, someone was telling me they were outside of clinics there and, you know, people are

00:42:06.640 going in and it's, and they're harder to talk to and to counsel and to, and, and to

00:42:10.660 take time because there's so much rush to get your abortion now. 1.00

00:42:14.860 So they're not seeing numbers really going down.

00:42:17.000 They're seeing people rushing there faster.

00:42:18.980 So they're really the get your abortion faster, take less time to think about it bills that

00:42:24.100 still allow for all babies to be aborted.

00:42:26.400 And even in states that have total bans, right, they all have written in that this doesn't

00:42:32.180 apply to the mothers, which then means, okay, every baby can still be legally aborted

00:42:37.180 in those states, it just means mothers have to order the pills online. 1.00

00:42:42.280 And this is the data showing that they are in huge numbers.

00:42:46.660 There's New York Times has said that overall, across the country, it looks like abortion

00:42:51.540 numbers have gone down, reported abortion numbers.

00:42:55.380 But then they said, actually, but there looks like there's over 6,500 self-managed abortions,

00:43:00.980 these pills coming in to these abortion-free states in the country, and they're being aborted 0.53

00:43:07.740 that way, which that more than makes up for the drop in, in the reported abortions.

00:43:14.100 So you may have a lot of states that pass the heartbeat bills, pass these, these bans on

00:43:19.560 clinic abortions, but have not actually even seen an actual drop in abortions.

00:43:26.280 And so that, that's what's happening.

00:43:27.420 You know, Aid Access is one of the largest abortion pill providers, they just, they've

00:43:33.100 been providing telehealth from Europe to women in America, and getting pills shipped from

00:43:39.440 India.

00:43:40.400 And like I said, they were already saying that that was more than the drop in reported

00:43:44.160 abortions, 6,500 of those.

00:43:46.380 Then they just came out about a week ago and said, actually, we're, we're now sending pills

00:43:51.420 from U.S. states, 3,500 of those from U.S. states to other U.S. states under what are called

00:43:57.420 shield laws, where the, the pro-abortion states are shielding abortion providers that are shipping

00:44:03.860 pills to the pro-life states.

00:44:07.380 And so really, we're just seeing, we're seeing that it sounds nice.

00:44:12.440 I want to believe, and I hope that there are babies that are being saved under heartbeat

00:44:18.080 bills, under, you know, clinic bans.

00:44:22.900 I don't really know that there are a whole lot.

00:44:25.360 I think it's-

00:44:26.080 You just think it's happening sooner, and it's happening through medication.

00:44:29.240 So even when CNN reports, there's been, I forget if it was 30 or 60,000 that they said

00:44:34.580 fewer abortions in the past year since Roe v. Wade.

00:44:37.860 Right.

00:44:38.080 You don't really see that necessarily as a win.

00:44:40.720 Well, yeah, the last numbers I saw were 25,000 fewer reported abortions, right?

00:44:45.860 So that's clinics, which were required to report abortions, but that doesn't account for all

00:44:51.000 those that are not reported, the abortions that are taking place through pills that you get

00:44:55.620 through the mail.

00:44:56.400 Yeah.

00:44:56.780 And so I don't really think the number is very high at all, and I think that pro-lifers are

00:45:03.460 lulled into a false sense of security thinking, oh, abortion, there's only 10 abortions in my

00:45:07.520 state.

00:45:08.120 Yeah.

00:45:08.440 We had 10 reported abortions, but we're seeing it's actually maybe in the tens of thousands

00:45:13.500 in that state and across the country, certainly.

00:45:16.860 And obviously, these medications are not good for women either, and trying to self-induce an 1.00

00:45:23.260 abortion is very dangerous.

00:45:24.720 I've seen a lot of stories of women who have just been left bleeding, and then they're not 0.95

00:45:29.080 given any kind of follow-up care or things like that.

00:45:32.180 And so, in your view, in the abolitionist view, these laws also protect women from that

00:45:37.860 kind of fate and that kind of physical and emotional and spiritual trauma.

00:45:43.580 You also oppose the U.S. House Resolution 464, the Recognizing Life Resolution, acknowledging

00:45:50.680 that unborn children are legal and constitutional persons who are entitled to the equal protection

00:45:56.680 of the laws.

00:45:57.760 So that, I mean, it sounds good.

00:45:59.700 It sounds like something that abolitionists would support, but why don't you support it? 0.91

00:46:03.560 Yeah, well, I support most of the bill.

00:46:05.100 I think most of the bill is great.

00:46:06.440 But one of the pro-life lobby organizations insisted on one clause being added to the bill that really

00:46:14.260 completely undermines all the rest of it.

00:46:17.900 And that one clause says that the Constitution does not permit a mother who aborts her child

00:46:25.360 to be prosecuted for that.

00:46:27.980 That's not just saying that the Constitution is neutral, right?

00:46:32.180 We say the Constitution requires equal protection, right?

00:46:36.200 Then a lot of people say, well, no, the Constitution is neutral, right?

00:46:39.000 That's kind of the argument that won the day in the Dobbs case.

00:46:42.640 But what the clause that somebody added into that bill says that, no, no, the Constitution

00:46:48.280 is not neutral.

00:46:49.060 It actually prohibits equal protection.

00:46:52.160 And so, absolutely, we're against that.

00:46:54.420 And I think even the people who, a lot of them that were originally behind that bill, I think

00:47:00.920 probably regret that that's in there.

00:47:02.600 Yeah.

00:47:03.100 Because it undermines what it's really all about.

00:47:05.560 That, no, equal protection doesn't mean that there could be no consequences for the mother.

00:47:13.280 How's that equal?

00:47:14.560 Yeah.

00:47:15.180 That's not.

00:47:16.280 Okay, so I'm just going to be honest.

00:47:17.820 The first impression that I got of abolitionists, I didn't know that there was a distinction

00:47:23.900 between abolitionists and pro-lifers.

00:47:26.520 I just, I didn't know that.

00:47:28.360 I thought everyone was kind of on board with whatever pro-life legislation that we could

00:47:33.080 get passed.

00:47:34.040 Right.

00:47:34.500 And then I had Abby Johnson on my podcast. 0.63

00:47:37.400 It's probably 2019.

00:47:39.180 And she is the former Planned Parenthood worker, employee.

00:47:43.300 She's talked a lot about the evils of abortion and fights against it.

00:47:48.640 But man, I got a ton of pushback and a ton of hate and just really mean comments about

00:47:56.260 Abby Johnson.

00:47:57.060 And it wasn't from pro-choicers.

00:47:58.840 It was from abolitionists.

00:48:00.460 Right.

00:48:00.680 And I've seen abolitionists protest and picket outside of conservative Baptist churches.

00:48:06.020 And they, very often, and again, this is a movement of a lot of different individuals.

00:48:13.220 And so this is not to paint a broad brush.

00:48:15.520 There's a lot of harassment online.

00:48:17.460 There's a lot of meanness and just like degradation towards pro-lifers.

00:48:22.860 And just like, I have to say, it's not the most attractive movement because even like

00:48:29.640 there are pro-life organizations, they get harassed and protested by these abolitionists.

00:48:36.640 And I'm not saying that protesting and being aggressive is all in assertive.

00:48:41.440 And I'm not saying that that's always bad.

00:48:44.220 But like, I think a lot of people, just to be honest, their impression of the abolitionist

00:48:49.020 movement, it's like, oh my gosh, you guys are exhausting, kind of annoying and mean.

00:48:55.120 And so, and I think that's part of why some people don't want to be associated with it.

00:49:00.740 I'm not saying that that's just, I'm not saying that that's right.

00:49:02.920 I'm not saying that that's a good justification for not listening to the abolitionist argument.

00:49:08.240 But I've noticed that.

00:49:09.560 I've noticed that kind of just like feralness among a lot of abolitionists.

00:49:15.780 I'm not just talking about passion.

00:49:17.100 Like I'm talking about just downright nasty in some cases.

00:49:21.480 So I don't know.

00:49:22.380 That's just, I just wanted to represent that because I know that's what a lot of people

00:49:25.520 are thinking.

00:49:26.360 Right.

00:49:27.160 Well, I mean, go back to Abby Johnson.

00:49:29.180 You brought her up.

00:49:30.100 She's a friend of mine and I appreciate her.

00:49:33.240 And she supports equal protection now.

00:49:35.420 Right.

00:49:35.600 In 2019, she did not.

00:49:37.320 But as of today, she now, she agrees.

00:49:39.760 She agrees with equal protection and that, yeah, mothers should be subject to prosecution. 1.00

00:49:43.040 Okay.

00:49:43.360 I didn't even realize that that was a shift or that she had believed one thing and shifted

00:49:48.660 on that.

00:49:49.020 She now lobbies in favor of our bills. 0.98

00:49:52.660 So, but that, yeah, as far as the, you know, the actions that you've seen by some abolitionists,

00:50:02.840 again, like you said, there's obviously a broad, it's a broad movement.

00:50:06.420 Yeah.

00:50:07.240 I'm certainly not going to defend everything everybody has ever done because, you know,

00:50:12.040 some of it is not defensible.

00:50:13.840 That said, I do think that in our country, you know, and I think that generally it's

00:50:20.260 a pro-life movement and, you know, before I was an abolitionist, you know, I mean, we

00:50:25.660 don't treat it seriously enough.

00:50:27.420 You know, there should be way more noise.

00:50:29.680 We should be way louder.

00:50:31.300 We should be way more.

00:50:33.220 People are dying.

00:50:34.540 And if we take into account that people are dying, again, it's kind of like our laws.

00:50:40.120 Do our actions, what do our actions say?

00:50:43.340 And a lot of the pro-life, you know, the average pro-lifers, our actions don't say people are

00:50:49.720 being murdered and there's a genocide.

00:50:52.020 They don't reflect that.

00:50:53.560 Yeah.

00:50:53.700 And so the abolitionists, I think it's like, they do reflect that.

00:50:57.240 There is genocide happening.

00:50:58.820 There is abortion.

00:50:59.940 And we're seeing a lot of the pro-life movement that's actually defending this and defending

00:51:04.420 basically a woman's right to an unassisted abortion. 1.00

00:51:07.960 And so, yeah, there's passion reacting against that and reacting against churches, which,

00:51:14.980 you know, like during the Holocaust, we see, you know, sing a little louder.

00:51:18.300 Right.

00:51:18.820 And, yeah, there's reaction against that.

00:51:21.040 And God says that, you know, in the Old Testament to his people, when there's not doing justice

00:51:27.440 to the fatherless, when they're allowing bloodshed in their land, God says, I hate your worship

00:51:32.560 because you are not doing these things.

00:51:36.120 This is what I want you to do.

00:51:38.820 You know, honor me with your actions and not just with your words.

00:51:41.900 And so I think abolitionists are wanting to, you know, obey God.

00:51:46.740 They're wanting to respond to the serious thing with what should be the attitude that we all

00:51:52.540 have, which is extreme passion toward it.

00:51:57.020 And, you know, I think it probably gets excessive sometimes.

00:52:02.940 But I think that we should all be extremely passionate about this.

00:52:08.800 And let's act like what we say is happening.

00:52:11.180 Let's act like it really is happening because it is.

00:52:14.120 But we can get in, we can be very apathetic and get in our little, you know, worlds.

00:52:21.920 And these things don't affect us personally.

00:52:24.620 Yeah.

00:52:24.960 So we don't react to them like we should.

00:52:27.360 And, you know, I think abolitionists are trying to wake people up.

00:52:31.280 Yeah.

00:52:31.580 Maybe sometimes go a little too far.

00:52:33.180 Yeah.

00:52:33.700 Yeah.

00:52:34.080 That's understandable.

00:52:35.480 Well, thank you so much.

00:52:36.780 You have laid out your case really well.

00:52:41.000 And I think given a lot of people a lot to think about, I think some people have never

00:52:43.800 really thought about this.

00:52:45.420 That was me a few years ago.

00:52:46.980 And I've had a lot of people request over the years, can you please talk about this?

00:52:50.840 And it can be a difficult thing to talk about.

00:52:53.120 You're dealing, obviously, with sensitive issues.

00:52:55.260 You're dealing with a lot of different people, a lot of different scenarios.

00:52:58.420 And I imagine that I'm going to get a lot of interesting comments with a lot of legitimate

00:53:02.340 questions.

00:53:02.880 And so where can people, if they want to talk to you, because you're the expert on

00:53:06.740 this, or they want to talk to your organization or learn more about this, where can they go?

00:53:12.920 They can certainly find me on Twitter, Bradley W. Pierce on Twitter, or they can check out

00:53:17.680 our page, FAA.life for the Foundation to Abolish Abortion, FAA.life.

00:53:23.140 Okay.

00:53:23.760 Bradley, thank you so much.

00:53:25.040 Thanks for taking the time.

00:53:26.080 This is a great conversation.

00:53:27.560 It gave me a lot to think about, too.

00:53:28.900 And I just really appreciate your passion and love for unborn children that you and

00:53:34.220 I both share.

00:53:35.260 And we both want those lives to be saved and to honor God.

00:53:38.900 And I really appreciate how biblically you approach this.

00:53:42.040 So I hope, I know, everyone will be really edified by this discussion.

00:53:46.680 So thank you so much.

00:53:47.680 Great.

00:53:47.980 Thanks for having me.

00:53:48.540 Thank you.

00:53:48.660 Thanks for having me.

00:53:48.760 Bye.

00:53:49.160 Bye.

00:53:57.160 Bye.

00:53:57.540 Bye.

00:53:57.580 Bye.

00:53:58.400 Bye.

00:53:58.640 Bye.

00:53:59.500 Bye.

00:54:00.460 Bye.

00:54:01.640 Bye.

00:54:01.740 Bye.

00:54:01.940 Bye.

00:54:02.600 Bye.

00:54:07.240 Bye.

00:54:07.740 Bye.

00:54:08.900 Bye.

00:54:09.900 Bye.

00:54:10.580 Bye.

00:54:11.000 Bye.

00:54:11.520 Bye.

00:54:17.100 Bye.

00:54:17.900 Bye.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - July 25, 2023

Ep 844 ｜ Is the Pro-Life Movement Fake？｜ Guest： Bradley Pierce

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - July 25, 2023

Ep 844 ｜ Is the Pro-Life Movement Fake？ ｜ Guest： Bradley Pierce

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

Ep 844 ｜ Is the Pro-Life Movement Fake？｜ Guest： Bradley Pierce