Ben Kirby runs the popular account, Preachers in Sneakers, and he posts pictures of preachers in very expensive sneakers and other clothing items. It s a commentary on how we elevate pastors to a place of celebrity and importance, and how some of these pastors preach a health and wealth gospel that, paired with the clothing items they are displaying on stage, can not only foster covetousness but also present a false hope, a false gospel to the people who are listening to them and watching them.
00:32:25.940And she said some nice things about my part of it.
00:32:28.180And I was proud of what they kept in from my interview because a lot of it was people that were hurt by Hillsong or hurt by just the concept of, of church in and of itself.
00:32:37.720But they allowed me to be, provide a less, I don't know, biased commentary about, Hey, here's why people do like Hillsong.
00:33:03.040I'm interested to hear what you think about the most recent documentary and what it says about church, how the secular world approaches church.
00:33:10.520Um, and then Carl Lentz specifically and kind of how he is portrayed.
00:33:14.460I'll just, all we have for the clip is the trailer for the one that came out in May.
00:33:19.280So let me play that to give people an idea of what we're talking about.
00:34:55.180As far as I know, like his family is still together.
00:34:57.480But I thought it was interesting how in this documentary about some of the problems with Hillsong, he is almost seen as like the redemption of it.
00:35:07.900Or he is almost seen as like a savior in some way.
00:35:10.820He almost kind of looks like Jesus with the long hair and stuff.
00:35:21.280And it's an interesting one because, yeah, I think people are starting to think that Carl was maybe more of a scapegoat for the larger Hillsong empire where maybe he got the majority of the wrath that maybe should have been directed at Brian Houston.
00:35:42.500I'm not saying that it should have or shouldn't.
00:35:46.460I'm just saying that's what I think people are starting to interpret that as.
00:35:50.440And I think Carl works at Mike Todd's church now, Transformation Church.
00:36:10.740And admittedly, having two kids now, I spend a lot less time on the internet and trying to like dig into every single one of these situations now.
00:36:21.300I got pretty like burnt out on the whole bickering back and forth about it.
00:36:25.600But yeah, I think Carl's point in that documentary was that Brian Houston might have been the problem and Carl had to experience maybe all or they tried to make him experience the majority of the wrath when maybe Brian Houston should have been held more accountable.
00:36:42.120Although Brian Houston's like resigned and I don't know.
00:36:45.120That family cannot seem to stay out of headlines.
00:36:47.560That church can't seem to stay out of headlines.
00:36:49.160Yeah, Hillsong was accused of laundering money, of covering up a bunch of different things.
00:36:54.120And obviously, I can't speak to the veracity of every allegation.
00:36:57.940And there are a lot of different churches that deal with allegations.
00:37:10.200And so I think we can acknowledge that.
00:37:11.980But I do think it's very difficult, not just for these particular people, but for all of us.
00:37:16.280When you get close to power, when you get a lot of influence, when you get Justin Bieber being like, or the Kardashians being like, you're my pal, you're my friend, you're my confidant.
00:37:27.160I think you can so easily convince yourself that whatever you're doing, no matter maybe how compromising it is, is for the greater good of sharing the gospel with more people or sharing the gospel with a particular celebrity.
00:37:41.040You convince yourself, well, God has placed me in this high position, in this high place, in this closeness to this celebrity, either as a reward or as a special privilege.
00:37:52.160And so I have to be so careful about how I present myself, the things I say.
00:37:57.380And I think it's just really easy for all of us when we get close to power and money and access and privilege to start compromising in the name of the greater good.
00:38:08.160And it does seem like that's what happens with a lot of these celebrity pastors, which any of us could fall prey to.
00:38:13.840Right. And you and I have probably experienced it to some degree.
00:38:18.040Like, it feels good to have a large platform.
00:38:20.860It feels good for people to give you pats on the back or say that you're insightful or funny or you changed their life or your book changed their life, that kind of thing.
00:38:29.120And it's just shocking to me that these guys and gals think they can do it differently or think that, like, without controls, they'll just be able to handle it fine.
00:38:42.020Man, their church will grow infinitely.
00:38:44.180Their following and brand will grow infinitely without any recourse.
00:38:50.460Like, maybe it will all go well for you.
00:38:52.780But it is just so well documented that money, power, fame can really pollute you without you even knowing it and without having anybody to speak into your life about it.
00:39:03.920And so it just seems really dangerous.
00:39:05.160Or at least it's a dangerous game to play as somebody who's charged with furthering the kingdom, shepherding people's souls, the most important calling you could ever have.
00:39:16.440Yeah, the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil, not money itself, not shoes themselves, but the idolatry that our hearts just so quickly go to that all of us are guilty of.
00:39:28.460We are just so quick and so hasty to worship idols that I think that it behooves us to protect ourselves from that and how we spend our money.
00:39:40.380But also, again, as a shepherd of a flock, to protect other people from that kind of idolatry and covetousness.
00:39:48.080And that's, I think, kind of the troubling part of this.
00:39:51.580And it's not just these celebrity pastors.
00:39:53.440It's also people like Kenneth Copeland.
00:39:55.200I mean, he's probably like the guy that people think of.
00:40:01.800And I saw a clip of him the other day, you know, basically conflating our own abilities with God's power and God's favor.
00:40:16.420We're talking about people's hearts and souls.
00:40:18.660And again, we're talking about the content of what these people are preaching, not just what they're wearing on their body.
00:40:23.320But it's those two things together that I think jeopardize, you know, the sincerity of faith for a lot of people who think that they're trusting in God, but really they're just seeking after stuff.
00:40:38.820Where, you know, these old school prosperity preachers would have to go do their tent rallies or whatever.
00:40:43.520That's a certain scale, but some have millions and millions of followers, get tens of thousands of people at their conferences preaching some of those things.
00:40:57.980And also it feels like it's not going away and that people are people, people that attend their churches are going to continue giving and kind of furthering this.
00:41:09.180Like the market demands, the market demand drives the supply.
00:41:14.960And so if there weren't people that wanted this very specific feel good experience message that God is going to ultimately give you what you want, if you just have faith, sacrifice, give, sow a seed, that kind of thing, they wouldn't have an audience.
00:41:40.780You know, it's interesting that a commonality that I see in most of their, like at least their social media clips, I can't say that I spend a lot of time listening to their full sermons, but I think it's fair to say what they post themselves on social media can be analyzed.
00:41:58.220And they all seem to start from the same premise that I see in the secular world.
00:42:02.180And this really goes beyond the things that they wear, but the premise is that our biggest problem as humans, their congregation's biggest problem is that they don't think highly enough of themselves, that you don't love yourself enough, that you don't think good enough thoughts about yourself, that you think that God is mad at you, which may be true for some people.
00:42:23.400I do not think that that is our overwhelming problem as a nation, as a society, really as just human beings.
00:42:30.000I think our overwhelming problem is probably that we love ourselves too much, but you see them always starting from that assumption that the message that you need to hear is only that God wants you to be happy.
00:42:41.500It's only that God thinks you're great.
00:42:43.180It's only that God is your biggest cheerleader.
00:42:45.500And so it's easy to see how from that assumption the rest of your theology would flow into this kind of prosperity gospel and more and more stuff and accolades and things like that.
00:42:57.320If you think that the big problem that needs to be solved in your heart is that you don't think enough good thoughts about yourself and that you think God is too mad, then of course you're going to do everything that you can to just make you happy and you're going to mistake that for real sanctification.
00:43:13.920And the focus on self, and if you did spend any time listening to their sermons, it would be pretty similar to the clips they post on Instagram where often it is focused on you, you, you, you, you, you, like all the messages.
00:43:34.000You just have to be ready for your blessing.
00:43:35.540And if you talk to anyone that's got life-threatening cancer or has experienced any type of hardship in their life, that fades away so quickly, that idea that like, all right, no, God's going to do this for me.
00:43:52.500He's like, he doesn't have to do anything for you.
00:44:05.320I hope people are awakened to that and do some diligence on their own around, all right, what does the Bible actually say and what does following Jesus actually mean?
00:44:14.920I think they'll be shocked and they probably have to wrestle with some things that they hadn't wrestled with, but ultimately they'll be better for it.
00:44:24.940I think the prosperity gospel is so burdensome in the same way that like so-called progressive Christianity is that it really puts like a heavy yoke on your neck and a really heavy burden on your back.
00:44:44.940Because if I look at my life and my life is hard and I didn't get a raise and I, you know, am not married or I'm not having kids and I tie that to God's favor and I tie that to God's approval of me, God's love for me or the measure of my own faith, I'm going to be constantly discouraged.
00:45:04.380Whereas if you tie God's favor and his approval and his acceptance to Christ and his sacrifice, which never, ever changes, it doesn't waver, it doesn't go up or down, it's not undulating like the things in our life or how we feel about ourselves, then that's freeing.
00:45:52.280Like if that was true, some of these churches would just be filled with wealthy, healthy people with massive platforms and beautiful jawlines.
00:48:57.620But the premise of it is based around questions, kind of like you and I have talked about, where it's way deeper than the preachers literally wearing sneakers.
00:49:05.300It's about, is it appropriate to monetize church and buy real estate and sell merch and book conferences through the vessel of the nonprofit church model?
00:49:21.500It's about the appropriateness of having celebrity Christians and Christians that are celebrities.
00:49:28.220It also dives into how do you and I view how we post and the heart behind what we post on social media, whether or not we're driving people to envy through posting our vacation pics or our new car pic, that kind of thing.
00:49:46.140Some people get frustrated because I don't give a ton of answers because I'm not the ultimate authority on what you should post and why you should post it.
00:49:56.580But I hope it gets people to ask hard questions of themselves, their churches, and ultimately take their faith seriously.
00:50:04.540So this is interesting, like in an age of Donald Trump, I say as someone who voted for Trump.
00:50:12.380But I can also see there's like a lot of wealth status celebrity worship among evangelicals when it comes to Trump and wanting, you know, access to power and things like that.
00:50:24.340So, again, it's not just these like skinny jean, like big shirt wearing, you know, very strange combination to me.
00:50:57.400And I wrote about the political side of it briefly because I'm not an expert on politics.
00:51:02.480But you and I, same age or similar age, experienced the kind of the worship of Donald Trump and the kind of looking from the outside in seeing like, okay, people are kind of freaking out about Trump being a savior of some kind.
00:51:19.940And so, to your point, it's similar in that we're all looking for someone to – or many of us are looking for someone to idolize and to seek answers from because humans are looking for answers a lot of the time.
00:51:34.540And, yeah, that's not very different, especially kind of the conflation of the political – I'm losing – the election cycles and how those kind of conflated with church services and now basically saying this is who we're voting for at this church.
00:51:53.860And kind of the issues that arise from that about like, hey, should they keep their nonprofit status?
00:51:58.960Should they be speaking about that at all from pulpits?
00:52:18.780And it's interesting that about Jesus, we read like in the prophecy about Jesus that there was nothing that really stood out about his appearance.
00:52:26.920And I think that there's something to be learned from that.
00:52:29.800Also, how did you get Joel McHale to write the introduction?
00:54:29.960As you know, the way books work is I've got to sell like tens of thousands of copies that I'm never probably going to sell to make any kind of money.