Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 848 ｜ Saving His Son from a 'Non-Binary' Future ｜ Guest： Harrison Tinsley

00:00:00.260 Harrison Tinsley is battling for the custody of his three-year-old son, whose mother is

00:00:06.420 apparently raising him non-binary.

00:00:10.300 Harrison is here today to share his gut-wrenching story with us.

00:00:14.640 There are a lot of lessons that we can draw out of this.

00:00:18.100 This is going to break your hearts, but it's also an inspiring story of the courage and

00:00:23.460 the persistence of a father.

00:00:25.780 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:28.020 Go to GoodRanchers.com, use code Allie at checkout. 0.82

00:00:30.400 That's GoodRanchers.com, code Allie.

00:00:41.280 Harrison, thanks so much for taking the time to join Relatable.

00:00:44.460 I really appreciate it.

00:00:46.380 Thank you so much for having me.

00:00:47.620 Yeah, so I saw your story, I think, originally on Daily Wire, and here's the headline.

00:00:53.140 One Father's Nightmare Battle for a Three-Year-Old Son that Mom is Raising Non-Binary. 1.00

00:01:00.440 So just take us back.

00:01:02.380 Take us back to, I guess, when your son was born and then everything that has happened

00:01:07.500 since then.

00:01:08.740 Okay, I'm going to take you back a little further.

00:01:10.480 Go ahead.

00:01:10.900 So I met a girl in the Bay Area, and we were at karaoke.

00:01:15.520 We sang each other some songs.

00:01:16.700 We fell in love.

00:01:17.600 It was beautiful.

00:01:19.220 And we started dating shortly after.

00:01:21.940 And we never agreed politically, but I always thought that that was something that didn't

00:01:25.800 matter.

00:01:26.380 Yeah.

00:01:27.120 And I wish that were the case.

00:01:29.240 Because you were more conservative, and she was less conservative.

00:01:33.900 Okay, so you were always kind of more conservative leading even being raised in California.

00:01:39.100 Yeah, I was always a rebel, so it was natural for me to kind of not follow the crowd.

00:01:44.840 Right.

00:01:45.180 But you fell in love in the Bay Area.

00:01:47.100 Yeah.

00:01:47.620 She, of course, has wonderful qualities, too.

00:01:49.800 And she had some mental illness problems.

00:01:52.060 And I always thought that, you know, again, that was just something that we could, you know,

00:01:55.080 fight through together.

00:01:56.400 But so shortly into dating, just a few months, she ended up getting pregnant.

00:01:59.880 And we were both thankful for that and excited, which is amazing.

00:02:04.080 But then a few months into her pregnancy, she became really hostile towards me.

00:02:11.840 And I was constantly getting threatened that I wouldn't see my son if I wasn't exactly who

00:02:17.020 she wanted me to be, particularly in a political sense.

00:02:21.900 She would say that I should go to, like, the Women's March or things like that. 0.99

00:02:26.080 Why do you think that stuff kind of came up in pregnancy when previously it hadn't been

00:02:31.780 an issue?

00:02:32.740 So it had come up before, but there was just no threat involving, oh, you won't see your

00:02:37.740 son if we don't see eye to eye kind of thing.

00:02:39.780 So now he was kind of a bargaining piece.

00:02:42.340 Correct.

00:02:42.800 At least from my point of view.

00:02:44.200 That's how it felt.

00:02:46.360 Okay.

00:02:46.840 So there started to be some problems.

00:02:48.940 And when she was saying, hey, you need to go to the Women's March or you need to align 1.00

00:02:52.280 with me politically or else you're not going to see your son, how did you respond?

00:02:56.300 I responded by saying, you know, that I'm not changing who I am.

00:03:00.520 I'm going to love my son no matter what.

00:03:03.260 And there's no reason that we have to agree on everything to have a beautiful family.

00:03:07.620 And then what went on from there?

00:03:10.900 Just kind of more and more of that.

00:03:12.620 And she ends up breaking up with me.

00:03:14.380 Then I received or she then she demanded that we went to couples counseling. 0.99

00:03:19.000 I was apprehensive at first.

00:03:20.560 And then I agreed to go just because I wanted to meet my son.

00:03:23.560 And she ended up bailing on the two appointments I set up twice in a row. 0.96

00:03:28.820 And after that, I got a cease and desist letter from her.

00:03:32.540 Wow.

00:03:32.980 And so I respected that.

00:03:35.680 And I didn't know when my son was born.

00:03:37.860 I found out about a week after.

00:03:39.860 Wow.

00:03:40.860 And so y'all had cut off communication while she was pregnant.

00:03:44.900 You would you and from your perspective, you were trying to make the relationship work.

00:03:49.160 And she expressed total disinterest and even hostility toward that.

00:03:53.320 Correct.

00:03:54.140 Okay.

00:03:54.780 So you didn't know when your son was born and what happened from there?

00:03:59.040 One of her friends reached out to me on social media and let me know that he was born.

00:04:03.400 It must have been hard.

00:04:04.780 It was a very I mean, even the few months beforehand in that it's such a weird feeling,

00:04:08.420 feeling like a part of you is like missing.

00:04:10.320 Yeah.

00:04:10.800 And unfortunately, it goes on a lot longer than that.

00:04:13.140 So find out he's born.

00:04:15.200 I do my research and stuff and I figure out what I'm going to do.

00:04:18.620 It was two months after he was born that I filed in court in San Francisco.

00:04:23.800 And from there, you know, to establish paternity and visitation custody.

00:04:28.240 And it took 13 months just for me to meet him.

00:04:31.500 So it was a total.

00:04:32.680 Yeah.

00:04:32.980 So I didn't meet him until he was 15 months old.

00:04:35.460 Oh, my goodness.

00:04:36.340 It was a travesty.

00:04:37.660 Yeah.

00:04:37.940 And how did you feel during that time?

00:04:41.660 I mean, just unspeakable heartbreak.

00:04:45.000 Yeah.

00:04:45.360 You know, it's like a part of you is just like gone that should be there.

00:04:49.160 Yeah.

00:04:49.660 It's a really weird feeling.

00:04:51.180 And you felt like you would do whatever it took just to be able to meet him.

00:04:55.600 Absolutely.

00:04:56.200 Right.

00:04:56.660 Did you try to reach out to her during that time or because of the legal process, did you have to,

00:05:01.180 you know, keep communication?

00:05:03.900 Yeah.

00:05:04.900 There was some communication between like her attorney and mine.

00:05:08.380 And they would always give us some impossible way of meeting him.

00:05:16.760 But because of COVID rules, they would give us like a situation.

00:05:20.060 And I think that's part of the reason it took so long, unfortunately.

00:05:22.820 But yeah, that's life.

00:05:24.560 And and just so I'm clear, like I'm not a victim.

00:05:28.460 It's absolutely tragic.

00:05:29.700 And I hope it doesn't happen to anyone else.

00:05:31.440 But this 15 months longer, really, because the pregnancy, too, made me a stronger man

00:05:38.020 to, you know, be a better dad, a better man for my son.

00:05:43.360 So that's kind of the positive I take from it.

00:05:45.600 Yeah.

00:05:46.000 You know, going through that pain and suffering.

00:05:47.860 Can you explain that a little more?

00:05:49.780 Yeah.

00:05:50.060 You said it builds character.

00:05:51.660 Kind of how how did it do that?

00:05:53.800 And what do you mean?

00:05:54.420 So what I mean is.

00:05:57.800 That amount of pain was so unimaginable that now it's the same thing as like if you go

00:06:05.100 running every day, but basically that amount of pain was so horrible that now I don't let

00:06:10.260 the little things get to me as much because I know what it's like to really suffer so I

00:06:14.940 can stay happy in the, you know, the little ups and downs of life still.

00:06:18.760 Yeah.

00:06:19.060 It's kind of like, I mean, in a much more superficial sense, if you're training for a

00:06:23.740 marathon, the day that you run the marathon, if you've already run the 26 miles or the

00:06:29.100 20 or 22 miles leading up to that, you can mentally tell yourself, I've done something

00:06:33.760 this difficult before.

00:06:35.020 So in that sense, you feel like, wow, I can weather a lot of storms if I was able to go

00:06:38.840 through that.

00:06:39.700 That's exactly right.

00:06:41.000 So then tell us after that 15 months, I mean, how did you like, what was the breakthrough

00:06:46.720 moment at 15 months that you finally got to meet him?

00:06:50.000 It was right around my birthday and it was, had been 15 months and we finally got a court

00:06:56.400 date and the judge, the judge said it was a shame that I hadn't seen him in so long and

00:07:00.620 that visitation is going to start immediately.

00:07:03.100 Well, that's good.

00:07:04.220 Yeah, it was good.

00:07:05.360 Unfortunately though, it was supervised at first, not professionally.

00:07:10.660 I don't know if you know the difference, but it's, so professionally it would be like

00:07:14.040 a court appointed like psychologist or something like that.

00:07:16.660 So it wasn't that, but it was just someone of her choosing.

00:07:19.420 So it'd be like her friend or dad or whoever.

00:07:22.640 Yeah.

00:07:22.800 And that kind of, that made it unfortunately a little less positive of an experience because

00:07:27.640 there were some weird things that happened.

00:07:29.380 So did she claim that you were like in some way a danger to the child or a danger to her?

00:07:36.260 Like did the cease and desist help her case in keeping you away from him for so long?

00:07:42.260 I don't believe so.

00:07:42.980 I think the cease and desist helps my case generally speaking, but she did claim later

00:07:48.760 on or right around then during the court dates, abuse when we were dating, which was completely

00:07:54.480 untrue.

00:07:54.880 And I've proven that to be untrue in court.

00:07:57.420 Okay.

00:07:57.940 Found that as a fact.

00:07:58.920 Okay.

00:07:59.580 And the supervision then, why was that?

00:08:03.840 So she was requesting professional because of the, her abuse claims.

00:08:07.220 So, but the court didn't find that to be credible.

00:08:10.280 So they just said, okay, we'll just have someone come so that the kid's comfortable because it's

00:08:14.620 someone that the kid already knows just in case he was uncomfortable with me or whatever,

00:08:19.400 which was not the case at all.

00:08:20.640 It was like immediately.

00:08:21.740 Really?

00:08:22.300 He knew.

00:08:22.760 Yeah.

00:08:23.080 Yeah.

00:08:23.320 Tell me about that moment.

00:08:24.620 What was it like when you saw your son for the first time?

00:08:26.760 Just breathtaking wonder and magic, miracle frequency and all through the air.

00:08:34.780 Yeah.

00:08:35.680 I was like looking in his eyes and it was just the most beautiful thing ever.

00:08:39.780 I remember, you know, doing headstands with him and looking at each other as we were like

00:08:44.500 upside down.

00:08:46.060 I remember he had to take a nap that day.

00:08:49.500 So I put him down for his nap and he was like fighting it, you know, like normal kid stuff.

00:08:54.900 And he kept crying if I would like leave him.

00:08:59.020 Right.

00:08:59.780 Yeah.

00:09:00.420 And he eventually finally fell asleep and it all just kind of hit me.

00:09:06.700 I, I remember he was sleeping and I was just laying there next to him and I was just sobbing

00:09:11.660 on the floor.

00:09:12.720 Yeah.

00:09:13.260 Just like I've never done before.

00:09:15.340 It was really in a profound moment.

00:09:24.900 Were there a lot of emotions associated with missing out on the first 15 months of his

00:09:37.080 life or the moment that you met him, did that kind of all go away?

00:09:42.100 Well, it's definitely what you're thinking about beforehand, but in the moment I met him,

00:09:45.500 yeah, it all went away.

00:09:46.580 Of course, it's a tragedy.

00:09:48.040 I mean, you know, you hear people that do these great things in their life, like they're

00:09:51.520 a Navy SEAL or they're a rock star and they're like the best day of my life is the day my

00:09:55.620 kid was born.

00:09:56.740 So, you know, I missed that day.

00:09:57.880 I missed his first words, his first steps.

00:10:00.260 Right.

00:10:00.800 But, you know, that's all okay because me and him are making plenty of memories now and

00:10:04.360 we have a really, really close relationship.

00:10:06.660 Tell us what's happened since then, because now he's three years old.

00:10:09.900 Yeah.

00:10:10.400 And what did the visitation look like after that?

00:10:13.900 Well, so I met him and I slowly got to spend more and more time with him and the judge

00:10:18.020 had hinted when I got granted that, that if I came to the Bay Area, I would get some custody.

00:10:22.820 So I ended up doing the visitations and I had moved to the Bay Area and I was lucky enough

00:10:28.840 to get granted half custody by the judge, like very quickly.

00:10:32.400 So that's something you were seeking after with your attorneys.

00:10:36.040 I don't know exactly how the entire process works and you still didn't really have communication

00:10:40.280 with his mom during that time.

00:10:42.620 A little bit.

00:10:43.560 Like we would talk on the court app and just very briefly about him.

00:10:48.000 Okay.

00:10:48.580 And so you were able to get half custody, but now you're seeking full custody.

00:10:52.960 So tell us why.

00:10:54.320 So I get granted half custody.

00:10:56.340 There's a lot of-

00:10:57.620 How old was he when you got half custody?

00:10:59.140 Two-ish.

00:10:59.760 Okay.

00:11:00.100 So not too long ago.

00:11:01.740 Yeah.

00:11:02.220 Yeah.

00:11:02.400 And that's right around the time she starts treating him as non-binary.

00:11:05.480 So before this, she's treating him just as a boy that whole time.

00:11:08.140 Okay.

00:11:08.360 And then right about when I get half custody, she starts treating him as non-binary.

00:11:13.240 And how do you know this?

00:11:14.680 From social media posts from her.

00:11:17.140 Okay.

00:11:17.920 And did she have a post announcing, hey, my son or my child is non-binary?

00:11:22.820 I don't know if she said it like that, but I mean, she would post pictures of him in

00:11:28.340 dresses and makeup and weird things like that.

00:11:31.040 There was also one post.

00:11:32.300 Yeah.

00:11:32.500 There's a picture right there that we have.

00:11:36.320 Yeah.

00:11:37.040 Yeah.

00:11:37.480 Go ahead.

00:11:37.940 I don't prefer to look at that.

00:11:39.460 Yeah.

00:11:39.720 I don't blame you.

00:11:40.800 I don't blame you.

00:11:41.560 But there's also a post from when she first announced she was pregnant on Facebook that

00:11:46.980 I screenshotted, of course.

00:11:48.160 So we were still together and her post was, baby Sawyer due in December.

00:11:54.860 I'll love you whether you're a boy or girl or neither.

00:11:57.880 And at that point, you already knew that it was a boy.

00:12:00.800 Yeah.

00:12:01.240 Right.

00:12:01.380 We were stoked when we found out it was a boy.

00:12:03.720 Even she was.

00:12:04.600 We were both like super happy.

00:12:06.260 Okay.

00:12:06.800 I wrote a song called It's a Boy Even.

00:12:08.640 I mean, we were both really happy about that.

00:12:11.120 And so when she posted that, I mean, I'm sure that kind of made you think, hmm, what exactly

00:12:17.920 is going on here?

00:12:19.060 So did y'all have a conversation about it?

00:12:21.280 I don't know if we had one about the post specifically, but there was conversations between

00:12:25.380 her and I where she would ask me like, oh, what if our kid's transgender?

00:12:30.460 And I would say like, oh, well, that, you know, that's like a one in a million chance.

00:12:34.040 And I wouldn't let my kid live in a delusion until they're 18.

00:12:38.660 I just wouldn't, you know, go along with that.

00:12:41.340 And that was, I think, part of all of this, but yeah, I can't speak for her.

00:12:45.360 Right.

00:12:45.620 Part of the part of the conflict.

00:12:47.560 And so she posted that while y'all were still dating, y'all kind of had a conversation about

00:12:53.580 it.

00:12:53.900 But I imagine there was also a lot of disagreement just about y'all's worldviews in general during

00:12:59.180 that time.

00:12:59.800 So maybe that particular thing got brushed under the rug.

00:13:02.220 Fast forward to where he's around too.

00:13:04.800 And then you see that she has posting on social media pictures of him and dresses and makeup

00:13:10.620 and things like that.

00:13:11.820 And what's your reaction?

00:13:14.480 I'm saddened.

00:13:15.920 Yeah.

00:13:16.780 And scared for my son.

00:13:18.760 Yeah.

00:13:19.920 But I just, I think deeply about it and decide like, I'm going to do everything I can to fight

00:13:25.880 for him and make sure he's happy with who he is and that he knows that there's boys and

00:13:29.880 girls.

00:13:30.920 Yeah.

00:13:31.980 So you're seeking full custody right now.

00:13:36.600 And what has that process been like?

00:13:38.660 And when did you, when did you say that you started seeking full custody?

00:13:41.780 Okay.

00:13:41.980 So the story goes on.

00:13:44.120 He's two years ish.

00:13:45.300 I get half custody.

00:13:46.520 Yeah.

00:13:47.420 Then we start seeing, first of all, right when I went half custody, there's defamation of

00:13:51.460 me on social media, more of the claims of abuse, but posting it publicly as well as saying

00:13:56.960 it to people.

00:13:58.600 And so I gathered that evidence to show the court because you're not supposed to speak

00:14:02.480 badly about the other parent in family court, you know, in case the kid sees it.

00:14:06.700 And I think that's a good, that's a good rule.

00:14:08.700 You know, if you want to think things on your own time, that's one thing, but you're going

00:14:12.320 to put something publicly where your kid can see it someday.

00:14:14.400 Right.

00:14:15.260 And particularly when the thing isn't true.

00:14:17.300 Right.

00:14:18.280 So there's lots of things posted about, you know, me that aren't true.

00:14:21.720 There's things posted about my son wearing dresses and makeup, all this weird stuff.

00:14:27.340 Some text saying he's non-binary or, and I believe she claims now that she's non-binary

00:14:34.620 as well.

00:14:35.180 But basically there's the defamation of me, there's the gender stuff.

00:14:41.580 Then I find out about an incident involving my son where his mom was arrested for child

00:14:47.740 endangerment and placed on 5150.

00:14:51.520 And so that was-

00:14:52.200 I don't know what that is.

00:14:53.640 That's an involuntary psychiatric hold.

00:14:56.220 Okay.

00:14:57.480 Okay.

00:14:58.400 That the police determine somebody needs.

00:15:02.420 Right.

00:15:02.700 Okay.

00:15:03.240 So you found that out and then-

00:15:05.180 What happened?

00:15:06.660 There was a CPS investigation and there was, you know, the police stuff.

00:15:10.580 And so we subpoenaed all the body cam footage and the police report and the 911 call and

00:15:15.600 got all this evidence.

00:15:17.340 And it was really interesting because CPS actually had to contact me.

00:15:21.480 But when they contacted me, they're like, oh, you have nothing to worry about.

00:15:25.020 Like your son fell off a bed and there was a misunderstanding.

00:15:28.860 And I was like, okay.

00:15:30.840 And so I requested like some stuff and I actually found out from my son's medical record, I was

00:15:37.160 going through it and I randomly saw this thing.

00:15:41.960 I was like, oh, you know, mother placed on 5150 child, like seen for head trauma, blah,

00:15:47.760 blah, blah.

00:15:48.040 And I was like, what the heck?

00:15:49.340 And then that's when I subpoenaed all the stuff and we got all this evidence and I was

00:15:52.840 obviously freaked out.

00:15:53.860 I mean, it's extremely, extremely scary.

00:15:57.240 So that's one of the main things I brought to court as well.

00:16:01.080 And so I brought that and the gender and the defamation as well as I was granted a temporary

00:16:06.220 restraining order on her for defamation and harassment of me, which she violated.

00:16:14.460 And so we have, I get granted a five day trial, which is extremely fortunate.

00:16:18.900 A lot of people just get a short hearing and their whole future is decided.

00:16:22.800 And when is the five day trial?

00:16:25.920 It happened in December.

00:16:27.500 Oh, it already, okay.

00:16:28.300 It already happened.

00:16:28.900 So tell me about that.

00:16:30.300 So I felt extremely confident about this trial.

00:16:33.440 We had loads of evidence, like over 850 pages.

00:16:36.400 We had witnesses and police officers and.

00:16:38.840 Evidence basically saying that you need for the protection and the wellbeing of your son

00:16:44.360 to be, to have full custody.

00:16:46.840 Yeah.

00:16:47.080 To have full custody.

00:16:48.020 And then, you know, at very least like a majority.

00:16:50.880 Yeah.

00:16:51.820 Okay.

00:16:52.100 And essentially I felt really good about the trial and I didn't think they're very convincing

00:17:00.160 on anything they said.

00:17:01.520 They had almost no evidence.

00:17:04.280 And after the trial, I was waiting anxiously.

00:17:07.940 And two months later I got the decision from the court and they decided that they were going

00:17:13.340 to keep custody the same and that they wouldn't rule on gender and that my son had to continue

00:17:19.720 to see the doctor that the mom preferred, which is a doctor that was in the trial.

00:17:23.680 And she said that in her opinion, it's okay to treat kids as non-binary when they're young.

00:17:29.180 And what's a rule on gender? 0.99

00:17:31.200 Like how, how, how does the court rule on gender? 0.99

00:17:34.180 Well, they said they can't to be fair.

00:17:36.000 So, but, but essentially I was asking them to, to make it that we both have to treat

00:17:40.940 him as a boy.

00:17:42.040 Oh, okay.

00:17:43.080 And so they're like, we're not going to decide that.

00:17:45.420 Yeah.

00:17:45.800 Okay.

00:17:46.060 And then what happened?

00:17:50.680 Then I was kind of devastated a little bit.

00:17:55.280 Yeah.

00:17:55.540 I couldn't believe it.

00:17:56.560 I was, I was that confident about our evidence in the trial.

00:17:59.380 So still half custody, still half custody.

00:18:03.400 And I sad, but I was also thinking strategically, like I, if, okay, if they're not going to protect

00:18:12.320 my son, I am.

00:18:13.520 So what can I do to protect him?

00:18:16.340 Cause I'll do anything for my son.

00:18:18.700 I love him more than anything.

00:18:20.220 I love being a dad more than anything in the world, more than I love music, more than I

00:18:24.160 love sports.

00:18:25.300 Being a dad transcends all that.

00:18:26.800 It's a love.

00:18:27.960 I didn't even know I could feel, you know, I mean, it's just literally the best thing ever.

00:18:35.520 And so I decided I'm going to scream it from the rooftops and tell as many people, you

00:18:44.140 know, what's going on.

00:18:45.180 And, and try to get support that way.

00:18:47.320 And I'm appealing the court's decision to a higher court, the appeals court.

00:18:52.060 And I thankfully daily wire, uh, broke my story for me and I'm super grateful for that.

00:18:58.900 It helped me raise money for attorney fees cause I'd spent all the money I'd saved in

00:19:03.340 my life already on attorneys and yeah.

00:19:09.060 So that's where I'm at now is I'm just speaking out and it's, it's now it's become more than

00:19:14.040 just protecting Sawyer.

00:19:15.300 It's also about protecting all kids because you see all these anti-parent bills in California

00:19:20.660 and just general devastation of kids.

00:19:25.980 And how often is he with you?

00:19:41.000 Half the time.

00:19:41.720 So I have him, unless it's a vacation, I have him for three days, four days, three days,

00:19:45.540 four days.

00:19:46.200 Oh, wow.

00:19:46.700 That's a lot of back and forth for him.

00:19:48.680 Yeah.

00:19:48.760 Um, and tell me what he's like when he's with you.

00:19:52.300 Do you think that there is confusion about his gender when he's with you?

00:19:56.780 Not at all.

00:19:57.640 He expressly says he's a boy.

00:19:59.940 He confidently says he's a boy.

00:20:01.100 He loves being a little boy.

00:20:02.580 You say anything else or give him too girly of a toy.

00:20:05.920 He'll actually yell and scream at you.

00:20:07.860 I'm not a girl.

00:20:08.760 I'm a boy.

00:20:09.460 Like yell and scream, like upset when he's told me things like it's, yeah, it's, it's sad.

00:20:16.380 And does he tell you what it's like when he's with his mom?

00:20:20.920 Like, does he express like, I don't want to go or what's that like?

00:20:25.340 No, like he loves his mom, which is good.

00:20:27.400 You know, and like she has some mental illness problems, but she has wonderful qualities as

00:20:31.120 well.

00:20:31.320 And I want him to love his mom, you know?

00:20:32.960 Right.

00:20:33.660 Yeah.

00:20:33.800 That's good for him.

00:20:34.700 Right.

00:20:35.260 Um, he does express sadness if she makes him put on girly clothes though.

00:20:39.400 Like, so when he told me about the Disneyland thing as an example, what's that?

00:20:43.700 So he went to Disneyland with her.

00:20:46.960 And she had told me she was taking the Disneyland.

00:20:48.820 He told me, obviously this was like a year ago ish.

00:20:52.140 And it was a couple of months after that.

00:20:54.020 He was, we were eating dinner at my house and he's like, Dada, when I went to Disneyland,

00:20:58.060 I couldn't go on the rides unless I wore my princess shoes.

00:21:01.860 And he was like, and he says it and he's, you know, he looks down.

00:21:05.580 He's sad about it.

00:21:06.660 You know, he knows that that's not right.

00:21:08.920 Or that that's not what he wants to be doing.

00:21:11.300 You know, I can tell by his voice and his looking down, you know, he's like saddened

00:21:16.960 about it.

00:21:17.960 And how do you respond when he says things like that?

00:21:21.000 Well, you have to do your best to, you know, be positive.

00:21:23.280 So you say, you know, that's not very nice, buddy.

00:21:27.580 You should stand up for yourself.

00:21:28.740 You can go on all the rides in boy's shoes.

00:21:31.200 Yeah.

00:21:31.520 You know, and you got to not let people force you to wear things you don't want to wear.

00:21:37.420 And he's like, yeah, I want to wear my Mickey Mouse shoes, my boy shoes.

00:21:40.480 I was like, yeah.

00:21:41.980 So he's doing a good job at standing up for himself as far as I can tell.

00:21:46.420 And more recently, I've seen a lot less of any of that, but I don't know what goes on

00:21:53.480 when he's with his mom for the most part.

00:21:55.200 Right.

00:21:55.940 That's really tough because as you said, he loves his mom.

00:21:59.060 Kids love their mom and probably wants to please her, probably doesn't want to disobey

00:22:05.020 her.

00:22:05.820 And it's a tough job for a three-year-old.

00:22:08.460 He's three, right?

00:22:09.400 Three and a half.

00:22:10.000 Three and a half to stand up for yourself.

00:22:12.140 I mean, that's just tough.

00:22:13.540 If someone says, this is what you have to do to make me happy.

00:22:16.420 If a parent says that, then the child is going to do whatever they can to win that parent's

00:22:22.840 approval.

00:22:23.780 So that's, I mean, that's really difficult for him.

00:22:26.240 I do think it's good if he does stand up for himself, but that's such an unfair position.

00:22:30.600 Yeah.

00:22:30.760 I mean, Disneyland, like to go on the rides, that's like you took someone all the way to

00:22:35.020 Disneyland.

00:22:36.500 It's just seems like coercion.

00:22:38.160 I just, I can't even fathom how anyone would do that or how anyone would, you love your kids

00:22:43.120 so much.

00:22:44.560 His mom included, I'm sure loves him to death.

00:22:46.620 And how, why wouldn't you want him to be happy with who he is?

00:22:50.320 Right.

00:22:50.680 And the other thing is, is, is now, so he always expresses he's a boy confidently.

00:22:55.360 He loves being a little boy.

00:22:56.420 He loves all the boyish stuff, you know, from wrestling to bike riding to fireworks to fighting.

00:23:04.460 Like he's just such a boy.

00:23:06.360 Right.

00:23:06.800 And it just seems like, it's just so sad that anyone would want to take that from him.

00:23:14.860 Yeah.

00:23:15.540 So you mentioned, and this is not to, you know, demonize genuine mental health struggles and,

00:23:22.400 you know, mental illnesses, but you did mention that his mom struggles with mental illness.

00:23:28.860 And the Daily Wire article talks about, you know, several PTSD, ADHD, anxiety, mood destabilization, manic depressive.

00:23:39.360 Apparently her friends told police that she has a volatile alter ego named Lexi.

00:23:45.420 So even with all of this, the court still said, sorry, she gets half custody of this child. 0.91

00:23:53.760 Yeah.

00:23:55.500 To the best of my knowledge, she also has borderline personality disorder.

00:23:58.860 Which is a really serious disorder.

00:24:03.240 And yeah, you know, the court was nice enough to look into it and investigate it somewhat and let us present our case.

00:24:10.520 But yeah, unfortunately they, they thought it was best for him to stay 50-50, which I agree is probably the best case in most scenarios. 0.98

00:24:19.440 Yeah.

00:24:19.680 I just think in this particular one, it's a little more dangerous than that.

00:24:23.760 Yeah.

00:24:24.000 So you are appealing it to a higher court, correct?

00:24:29.380 What does that process look like?

00:24:31.840 I'm not too familiar with it, but we're doing it right now.

00:24:34.520 And essentially you just give the appeals court all the stuff from a family court and then they go over all of it and you have to present a case of why you think they wrote case law or, you know, they got it wrong on the facts and evidence, things like that.

00:24:51.540 And you have to present that and they go through everything and then make a decision.

00:24:56.020 And what do your attorneys think about the media coverage of this?

00:25:01.800 Like you coming on this show?

00:25:04.160 He says, you know, as long as you tell the truth, it should be all right.

00:25:07.860 Yeah.

00:25:08.520 Yeah.

00:25:08.980 And I, I mean, I think that's the only thing that you can do.

00:25:12.400 It's obviously in your interest and in the interest of your son.

00:25:15.120 And I'm sure that there's some concern with just the location of the case being California.

00:25:21.780 I mean, you know, AB 957 cleared the state Senate Judiciary Committee instructs family court judges to award custody and visitation rights based in part on a parent's affirmation of the child's so-called gender identity.

00:25:38.920 You actually spoke to the California Senate Judiciary hearing earlier this month about that, or I guess last month now about that.

00:25:49.040 So tell us about that and any of your concerns involving that.

00:25:53.420 Yeah.

00:25:53.720 Well, it's a terrifying bill.

00:25:55.800 I think it could, you know, harm thousands of families.

00:25:59.300 You know, in family court, people oftentimes lie and just do whatever they can to win custody or to get back at their ex-husband or wife.

00:26:05.620 And I think that's really unfortunate, but that's, that's the reality of the situation.

00:26:10.560 And this is giving people a new weapon to use at the sacrifice of the children.

00:26:16.900 And I'm obviously against the bill.

00:26:19.860 I was there that day and thousands of people were there, including people that would say I'm a leftist progressive Democrat from San Francisco and I'm a, I oppose this bill.

00:26:29.860 So countless people were against it and it's just horrifying to think that the government would want to put into law something like that.

00:26:39.200 I actually had a conversation with the, the author of the bill, Wilson.

00:26:43.300 We spoke for like seven or eight minutes, which was very kind of her to take the time.

00:26:47.480 And she was actually very polite and nice to me.

00:26:49.720 And what did you have the opportunity to say to her?

00:26:52.400 You know, I asked her, I told her my concerns, you know, and she's, she said, interestingly, that she thinks the bill will help me because, you know, my son says he's a boy.

00:27:01.100 So if she says he's non-binary and she's not affirming him and I am, which if you believed the, the, the leftist premise is, is that your kid could be non-binary because they should be able to choose their own gender.

00:27:18.420 Now, I completely disagree with that.

00:27:20.900 And there's only boys and girls.

00:27:23.000 However, if you believe that, and that's your premise, then when your kids start saying over and over that he's a boy, he's made that decision.

00:27:31.040 So shouldn't you respect that decision as opposed to continue to say he's non-binary?

00:27:36.480 That's what I don't understand.

00:27:38.340 Right, right.

00:27:39.260 If it's really about self-identity and expressing your true authentic self, then you should affirm it and you should simply agree and not argue when your boy says that he's a boy.

00:27:52.240 It's interesting how it doesn't always go that way.

00:27:54.980 Yeah.

00:27:55.620 I'm happy to use their rules against them.

00:27:59.420 We'll see if it works both ways.

00:28:01.040 There was a case here also in Texas with someone named Jeff, Jeff Younger, that is not the exact same thing.

00:28:21.040 And so I just, I know that unfortunately it gets political.

00:28:24.200 It really shouldn't get political.

00:28:25.800 And just so people know, here's what the bill says.

00:28:28.360 It says,

00:28:58.360 the child's overall health and well-being, which I think, you know, it's gender identity and gender expression.

00:29:06.620 Obviously, I don't believe that gender and sex are separate categories at all, but obviously it's very subjective and up to interpretation.

00:29:13.700 And when you're talking about a child, like a child is so malleable and will in some cases say whatever their parent wants them to say.

00:29:21.780 Like there's just no way of really verifying, verifying all of this.

00:29:27.380 So it has the bill passed in California yet?

00:29:30.380 It hasn't passed the assembly floor.

00:29:32.160 And they, so when I spoke on it, they amended a little bit and added some of what you just read and they kind of just made it more vague.

00:29:38.560 Right.

00:29:38.920 So I'm not sure it helped, but.

00:29:41.140 No, it didn't.

00:29:42.300 They're going to get back in session in a couple of weeks and I believe they'll try to pass it pretty quickly.

00:29:47.580 Okay.

00:29:48.700 So until then, you still get him for half of the week and you're just doing everything that you possibly can to affirm his confidence in who he is as a boy.

00:30:00.060 Yeah.

00:30:00.740 And I spend all my time with him.

00:30:02.140 Like when I have my four days with him, I don't work.

00:30:04.520 I just spend all the time with him.

00:30:06.080 Oh, really?

00:30:06.620 Every second.

00:30:07.060 What do y'all do when you're spending time together typically?

00:30:09.900 We do hockey and baseball and football and we sing songs and we wrestle each other and we do fireworks and we go for scooter rides and bike rides and we go swimming.

00:30:23.480 Yeah.

00:30:24.320 And snowboarding if it's winter.

00:30:27.260 Just all the fun stuff.

00:30:30.000 What is it like at the end of those few days every week?

00:30:34.660 That's a really good question.

00:30:35.960 And it's, it's really weird because, you know, I have him and it's, it's also amazing.

00:30:43.300 And then he gets picked up and it's just like a weird, very weird, kind of morose feeling.

00:30:51.900 And then you kind of worry about him.

00:30:54.200 Yeah.

00:30:54.420 And you just worry about him for a few days and then you get him back and it's amazing.

00:30:57.280 And then you, you worry about him for a few days.

00:30:59.300 And I, I say a prayer every day to God.

00:31:02.580 It's always the same thing.

00:31:03.760 I, I always just say, dear God, thank you for everything in my life.

00:31:08.820 I'm so grateful.

00:31:10.440 Please just protect Sawyer when he's not with me.

00:31:14.120 That's all I ever asked for.

00:31:16.400 And I do that every day.

00:31:18.280 Yeah.

00:31:18.760 I think at this point, I mean, you're doing everything that you can possibly do as a father

00:31:23.860 to pursue your child, to protect your child.

00:31:26.300 And then trusting that, you know, God loves Sawyer, that he made Sawyer, that in all of

00:31:31.420 this craziness and I think evil in a lot of ways, that there is some kind of purpose and

00:31:37.060 plan.

00:31:37.500 And I mean, that, I mean, that faith I think is necessary because I'm sure it's easy to

00:31:42.200 get discouraged and just to feel like, oh my gosh, this is never ending.

00:31:46.540 Yeah.

00:31:46.900 I mean, spending so much time and money in court isn't fun, but he's worth it.

00:31:51.220 I don't care how hard it is.

00:31:53.200 I don't care how much pain it causes me.

00:31:55.040 I'm never going to give up.

00:31:56.220 I'm going to fight for him until my last breath forever, as hard as I can.

00:32:01.800 It's my duty as a dad.

00:32:04.840 And what is your advice and encouragement maybe to other people who are listening to

00:32:11.020 this, watching this, who are going through the same thing?

00:32:14.780 Like if you were to sit down, you know, across from a dad or maybe a mom who was also dealing

00:32:22.060 with this and they were like, okay, you're ahead of me in this journey.

00:32:25.560 Tell me like, what is, what do you wish you would have done differently?

00:32:29.160 Or like, what's your advice that you can give?

00:32:33.000 My advice would be, you have to be courageous.

00:32:36.340 You have to be willing to sacrifice whatever you need to, to go to court or to go to the

00:32:43.160 Capitol and fight bills.

00:32:45.100 You have to do whatever it takes to do what's best for your kid and keep them safe.

00:32:49.840 You can't let the chatter of other people.

00:32:52.160 Some people will tell you like, oh, you should just give up, you know.

00:32:55.560 You'll just be in court forever and see your kid a little bit or whatever different things

00:32:59.820 you hear.

00:33:00.300 And it's all nonsense.

00:33:01.840 If you believe and you take action, you really can make a difference.

00:33:07.060 Yeah.

00:33:07.680 Yeah, definitely.

00:33:09.060 Well, how can people support you?

00:33:11.100 You can follow me on social media, Harrison Tinsley, on everything.

00:33:16.480 And I have a Give, Send, Go.

00:33:18.560 Give, Send, Go, Saving Sawyer for attorney's fees.

00:33:22.760 And you can pray for me and send me messages.

00:33:25.760 Yeah, I do encourage people at the very least to send encouraging messages and to pray, not

00:33:33.820 just for this situation.

00:33:34.820 I mean, there are, unfortunately, a lot of situations exactly like yours.

00:33:38.940 And I think we should all be interested in the well-being of children, the protection

00:33:43.820 of children, what is best for kids.

00:33:46.140 And that's what I know the audience of Relatable is all after.

00:33:48.760 So I just encourage people to encourage him and lift up the situation the best you can.

00:33:54.860 Thank you so much, Harrison, for taking the time to come on.

00:33:57.960 Is there anything else that you want to share?

00:34:01.340 We have to protect kids.

00:34:02.780 They're the most innocent, wonderful amongst us.

00:34:05.780 They're the future.

00:34:07.300 And I think that that's the most important thing we can do.

00:34:10.420 Yeah.

00:34:10.840 Amen.

00:34:11.300 I agree with you.

00:34:12.160 Thank you so much.

00:34:13.100 Thanks for taking the time to come on.

00:34:14.360 Thank you.

00:34:18.760 All right.

00:34:28.100 I hope you guys enjoyed that conversation or that you got a lot out of it.

00:34:31.780 And just a reminder, there's so many complexities and details when it comes to these kind of family

00:34:37.280 centered, legal stories, child centered stories.

00:34:41.620 And there are so many things that we don't know that have gone on.

00:34:45.080 We have Harrison's very sincere rendering, but that's really all we know.

00:34:50.900 All we know is what he told us today.

00:34:53.140 And so something to keep in mind also is that there are other image bearers involved in this.

00:34:58.360 As much as we are directing our frustration towards this mother, we also need to pray for her.

00:35:04.700 And we need to remember that God created her and that he wants to redeem her and heal her as well.

00:35:12.180 And so as we are praying about the situation, the well-being of the son being central to our

00:35:18.640 prayers, we also need to remember both the mom and the dad and to pray for both of them equally

00:35:26.080 as well.

00:35:27.400 This is just, I know, just such a devastating, difficult story, but this happens.

00:35:31.640 I don't want to say on a daily basis in the United States because I don't have the statistics

00:35:35.360 for that, but probably much more commonly than we are comfortable with.

00:35:38.220 And there are a lot of issues with family court that we haven't discussed thoroughly on this

00:35:44.500 podcast.

00:35:45.360 But it's just a reminder that we live in a very broken world, that the breakdown of the

00:35:52.440 family has really difficult ramifications.

00:35:55.940 And so it's something that we can mourn over, that we can do everything that we can to try

00:36:01.480 to avoid, of course, in our own lives and also help others who are dealing with that brokenness.

00:36:07.240 But it also should increase our anticipation for one day, Jesus making all things new and

00:36:13.840 there will be no more fracturing of the family.

00:36:16.420 There will be no more lawsuits.

00:36:19.580 There will be no more court cases.

00:36:21.760 There will be no more injustice.

00:36:23.420 There will be no more abuse.

00:36:25.600 There will be no more stories like this one because everything will be as it always should

00:36:31.720 have been and one day justice and righteousness and peace will reign.

00:36:38.860 So stories like this that just break my heart so much, they just increase my excitement for

00:36:45.800 the victory that Jesus is sure to claim.

00:36:49.360 And so anyway, do everything that you can to pray for all parties in this.

00:36:53.900 Pray for salvation.

00:36:55.000 Pray for redemption.

00:36:55.720 And pray for healing in every facet.

00:36:59.660 All right, we'll be back tomorrow with a few things.

00:37:03.620 We're going to talk about my response to Andrew Tate and Candice Owens' interview.

00:37:10.700 They mentioned me.

00:37:12.120 And so I got to say something about it.

00:37:13.900 So we'll talk about that tomorrow as well as a few more things.

00:37:16.780 I've got a fun guest that you guys love.

00:37:18.640 So thanks so much for listening and watching.

00:37:20.800 And we will be back here then.

00:37:22.000 We'll be back here then.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - August 01, 2023

Ep 848 ｜ Saving His Son from a 'Non-Binary' Future ｜ Guest： Harrison Tinsley

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