Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 859 ｜ Why You Can't Be a Gay Christian

00:00:00.000 Dr. Christopher Yuan is a speaker and author of several books, including Holy Sexuality

00:00:05.840 and the Gospel, Sex, Desire, and Relationships Shaped by God's Grand Story.

00:00:12.240 He is also a Bible professor.

00:00:13.820 He has created a new curriculum called the Holy Sexuality Project that offers so much

00:00:20.540 clarity, so many answers about what God's Word actually says about who we are in Christ,

00:00:28.600 our identity, our sexuality, our desires, our gender.

00:00:33.500 He is an amazing testimony of being a drug dealer who went to prison, who was deeply involved

00:00:41.920 in the gay community as a homosexual man, and then came to Christ through an incredibly

00:00:48.500 powerful turn of events.

00:00:50.580 And he's going to share a lot of his story here today.

00:00:53.740 And then we're going to talk about, like, what is the truth about all of these things?

00:00:58.700 What is the call to die to self?

00:01:01.060 What does it look like to be made a new creation that actually includes our sexual desires and

00:01:06.820 our understanding of our bodies and gender?

00:01:09.040 You're going to be so encouraged by his testimony and by this discussion.

00:01:14.700 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:01:17.660 Go to GoodRanchers.com.

00:01:19.120 Use code ALI at checkout.

00:01:20.580 That's GoodRanchers.com.

00:01:21.660 Code ALI.

00:01:31.480 Dr. Yuan, thanks so much for joining us again.

00:01:34.700 You were one of my first interviews ever on Relatable 2018-2019.

00:01:40.600 And here you are again.

00:01:42.000 Thanks so much for being back.

00:01:43.000 I'm so honored.

00:01:44.300 I'm so honored.

00:01:45.500 Great to see you.

00:01:46.400 Yes.

00:01:46.700 Good to see you, too.

00:01:47.640 Well, a lot has happened over the past few years.

00:01:49.780 We were just talking before the camera started rolling how busy you are.

00:01:53.300 Before we get into the curriculum that you have helped develop, tell us a little bit,

00:01:59.660 for those who may not know who you are, what your story is, why you are authoring this curriculum.

00:02:07.180 Well, it's not something that I just studied or that I've read about and done research on.

00:02:14.740 It's actually part of my own personal story.

00:02:17.140 I wasn't raised in a Christian home.

00:02:18.920 I wrestled with my sexuality from a young age.

00:02:21.440 I didn't come out publicly with it until my early 20s, which, of course, today is much

00:02:28.200 later than the average age which kids are dealing with it.

00:02:32.260 I mean, unfortunately, I think it doesn't need to be pushed so hard with kids.

00:02:37.120 But it wasn't until my early 20s.

00:02:38.940 I'm originally from Chicago, and I was living in Louisville, Kentucky at that time, going

00:02:45.060 to dental school.

00:02:46.340 I came out, and through that crisis, my mother came to faith, and then my father did as well.

00:02:52.740 I went the total opposite direction.

00:02:55.060 I wanted nothing to do with Christianity.

00:02:57.000 Unfortunately, I started doing drugs, started selling drugs while in dental school.

00:03:00.540 I was expelled from dental school just three months before I received my doctorate.

00:03:04.800 I moved from Louisville to Atlanta, and there I kept doing what I knew how to do best, which

00:03:09.380 is if you don't have Christ, you're just going to live in the world and have fun, be happy.

00:03:16.060 And I was not only selling drugs and partying, but I also was supplying drugs.

00:03:21.240 And this whole time, my parents didn't know that I was doing drugs, but they knew that I

00:03:24.320 needed to know Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

00:03:26.860 They tried to reach out to me.

00:03:29.460 They came to visit me one time in Atlanta, kicked them out.

00:03:32.320 And here's the funny thing, Allie.

00:03:33.480 We hear the narrative today.

00:03:36.040 Christian parents cannot, are unable to love their gay children.

00:03:40.300 They have to throw the Bible away or believe in so-called progressive Christianity to love

00:03:45.180 their gay children.

00:03:46.720 I had the exact opposite experience.

00:03:49.100 My parents were not Christian.

00:03:51.580 They couldn't find themselves to love me.

00:03:54.360 It wasn't until they became followers of Jesus Christ, they knew they could do nothing other

00:03:58.920 than to love me as God loved them while they were sinners, while they were enemies, while

00:04:02.560 they were still weak.

00:04:04.460 And so they loved me.

00:04:05.600 I kicked them out.

00:04:06.440 My dad gave me his Bible.

00:04:07.600 I threw him in the trash can.

00:04:08.920 And my parents just knew I was hopeless.

00:04:11.420 But they committed not to focus upon hopelessness, but upon the promises of God.

00:04:16.940 And my mom got like over a hundred prayer warriors to intercede on my behalf from church for Bible

00:04:24.560 study fellowship.

00:04:25.340 She prayed a bold prayer, which is for a mother, a bold prayer.

00:04:29.720 Do whatever it takes, God.

00:04:31.940 Whatever it takes.

00:04:32.720 She fasted every Monday for seven years, even fasted 39 days.

00:04:37.620 And she prayed for a miracle.

00:04:39.320 That miracle came with my arrest.

00:04:41.040 I found myself in jail and it was in jail that God began to reveal himself to me.

00:04:46.760 I found a Bible in the trash can of all things.

00:04:49.260 I began reading it and it began to convict me.

00:04:52.400 I mean, I had put my identity solely in my sexuality and God was telling me your identity

00:04:57.640 is not in anything else other than Jesus Christ.

00:05:01.280 So it was through this transformation in prison, I needed to be away from the world, away from

00:05:09.240 the gay community and just to use me, God, the Holy Spirit and the word of God.

00:05:15.380 And it began to convict me, transform me.

00:05:17.480 I found out I was HIV positive.

00:05:20.380 And but it was kind of through these things of putting me just a rock bottom that I knew

00:05:25.860 I could do nothing else but to look up.

00:05:27.760 And so through that, I came to Christ in prison.

00:05:32.720 I was also called to ministry in prison.

00:05:35.280 I got out of prison, went to Bible college.

00:05:38.120 So I had to go back to it since I didn't get my doctorate and I actually never got my bachelor's

00:05:42.580 before going to dental school.

00:05:44.000 So I went back to Bible college, went to seminary and then wrote a book with my mother called

00:05:48.880 Out of Our Country.

00:05:50.000 And through that, I introduced this concept of holy sexuality.

00:05:53.860 And I wrote that as a book.

00:05:55.280 It was named 2020 Book of the Year for Social Issues by Outreach Magazine.

00:05:59.180 And that is what then turned into this video series.

00:06:02.580 Wow.

00:06:03.200 That was an amazing summary.

00:06:04.660 And gosh, I encourage people to read your books.

00:06:06.860 You can go back and listen to that 2018, 2019 interview for some more details on your story,

00:06:11.900 too.

00:06:12.060 But I am curious because I know that there are so many parents who are listening to this.

00:06:16.580 There are so many moms listening to this who they have a prodigal child.

00:06:20.840 They have a child maybe who struggles with different sexuality identity issues or they've just rejected

00:06:25.720 the faith and they want to know more about that story, what your parents did.

00:06:30.900 So when your parents found out that you were gay or you told them that you were, were they

00:06:38.100 Christians at that time, did you say?

00:06:40.660 They were not.

00:06:41.240 And how did you say that they reacted?

00:06:44.580 You know, I've, I was born in 1970.

00:06:48.000 So this is the early 80s in my teenage years.

00:06:52.740 That was kind of initially when they had found out.

00:06:55.160 And, you know, and I didn't even say this, but I was 16 years old and there was an older

00:06:59.320 man.

00:06:59.720 And of course, I, I did seek this out with an older man.

00:07:03.960 My mother found out, uh, and we just need to call it what it, what it is.

00:07:08.840 Statutory rape.

00:07:10.220 Illegal.

00:07:11.240 Um, even if I was willing, it's still statutory rape.

00:07:18.460 Um, and this man was in his thirties, but, uh, so that was my mom, uh, you know, even though

00:07:25.100 she wasn't a Christian then, uh, I, I think God just revealed it to her and she found out.

00:07:30.580 Um, and, uh, it was not, that, that's not, did not fit into her plan as, uh, you know,

00:07:38.080 Chinese were very family oriented, um, more traditional in values, moral values.

00:07:46.040 So that was not acceptable.

00:07:47.700 And in the eighties, early eighties, that was, you know, in the early eighties, that

00:07:53.680 was when biblical sexuality was actually accepted.

00:07:56.820 Now today, which is so unfortunate, our children are being raised in a time where they never

00:08:02.980 knew a time where biblical sexuality was actually accepted, but rather it's stigmatized.

00:08:09.480 And so there's a flip of, of, of narratives now, but yeah, my parents were not Christian

00:08:14.140 at the time.

00:08:15.820 And from an early age, because you said that you were struggling with your sexuality from

00:08:20.000 an early age.

00:08:20.680 So that means that you had attraction to males from, I guess, the kind of time that you can

00:08:27.060 remember as an early teen, preteen, but there was something in you that told you this is,

00:08:32.960 I mean, this is different.

00:08:34.080 This is not something I want to be public about.

00:08:35.900 This is not something I'm proud of.

00:08:37.580 So tell us a little bit about wrestling with that when you were young.

00:08:42.220 Yeah.

00:08:42.720 You know, I, I think certainly we have, you know, I mentioned where it was the, the culture,

00:08:49.120 but I don't want to fall into the trap that somehow morality or the, the misunderstanding

00:08:53.740 or the lie that morality is shaped by culture.

00:08:57.980 Romans one tells us that we all have God put in us, um, conviction and, uh, a conscience to

00:09:08.680 know right and wrong.

00:09:11.800 And it was, and I would say that is more of the issue that we all know that the, the

00:09:19.100 unfortunate thing that Paul talks about in Romans one is we suppress it.

00:09:24.340 We actively suppressed it.

00:09:26.040 And so even though from a young age, I, I knew that something was not right.

00:09:30.360 And I knew that even though I wasn't raised in the church, this was what, what we would

00:09:35.760 call in theology, general revelation giving, given to us, this is common grace.

00:09:40.280 And the reality is we all have a conscience that God put in us, in our minds, in our hearts

00:09:46.500 to know what is right or wrong.

00:09:48.580 But the problem is we then just suppress it.

00:09:52.260 And I did that, uh, you know, in my early teen years, when I was kind of dealing with

00:09:55.860 myself, I didn't tell anyone there was this stigma and it was in my conscious saying, this

00:09:59.460 is not right.

00:10:00.300 But as I got older and as I began acting on my sin, I thought, man, this feels good,

00:10:05.600 right?

00:10:05.780 I mean, sin feels good, unfortunately, or else it wouldn't be a struggle.

00:10:09.480 And I began justifying it.

00:10:11.880 Well, what's, you know, I'm not hurting anyone.

00:10:14.100 That is probably the number one weapon used by the enemy.

00:10:18.560 You're not hurting anyone.

00:10:21.460 And so I just, it just went from there.

00:10:23.920 And if we could use that, you're not hurting anyone.

00:10:26.420 Why is drugs then wrong?

00:10:27.940 I'm not hurting anyone.

00:10:29.080 Why not smoke a joint?

00:10:30.580 Why not, you know, shoot up with heroin?

00:10:32.340 I'm not really hurting anyone in, you know, I'm making my, this is my own body.

00:10:36.960 These are all lies from the enemy that then justify that suppresses the truth that this

00:10:44.060 is not, this is not only, you know, against, um, my conscience and against what society is

00:10:50.400 saying at that time, but this is against God's moral, holy, good law ground in not just natural

00:10:57.840 law, but in God's natural law, which is from the beginning in creation.

00:11:05.120 Yeah.

00:11:05.740 And then as you, you said that you started acting on it, obviously you had that situation

00:11:10.120 where your mom found out that you had been with an older man.

00:11:14.460 And so that didn't stop you though, obviously from kind of pursuing male relationships, it

00:11:19.660 just made it even more, I'm guessing secretive and maybe kind of covered with shame.

00:11:24.620 But then when you moved out of the house, is that when you were like, okay, this is going

00:11:28.460 to be my true identity.

00:11:30.300 This is going to be really what I pursue openly.

00:11:34.080 You know, initially, um, so this was 88, 89 that, you know, that was eight.

00:11:40.620 I graduated from high school in 88, 86 was when I was 16 years old, but even so after I

00:11:46.580 was 16, I thought, okay, we're going to, and, and we went even through some crazy counseling,

00:11:51.660 um, that, you know, this is, um, my mom, my mom was so desperate and it was not reparative

00:11:58.580 therapy.

00:11:58.980 It was something even, uh, it was really crazy Scientology of all things.

00:12:05.120 Wow.

00:12:05.920 So she was just looking for something to quote unquote fix you desperately just grabbing.

00:12:11.500 Okay.

00:12:12.220 Got it.

00:12:12.640 Not a Christian.

00:12:13.760 Right.

00:12:13.940 And, and, and the reason to give a little backstory on why Scientology, Scientology was actually

00:12:19.300 moving into kind of their evangelism to use business and, and they were trying to get

00:12:25.020 businesses.

00:12:25.500 My dad was a dentist and they were thinking, you know, very secular, we're going to grow

00:12:29.520 our business.

00:12:30.200 And that was one thing that were, was anyway, they were, Scientology had like a business

00:12:34.740 aspect.

00:12:35.940 So they were in that at right at that time.

00:12:38.740 And so my mom thought, Oh, maybe they could help with this.

00:12:42.080 And so we actually went to San Francisco there or whatever headquarters office and went through

00:12:47.460 all their holding the metal cans.

00:12:49.600 And it was, it was wacky.

00:12:52.340 Um, but again, it just showed that for you to just, I can't imagine how hard that was

00:12:59.660 to go through something like that.

00:13:00.960 Yeah.

00:13:01.880 Well, I mean, in essence, I also, because it was my conscience that saying, this is not

00:13:06.100 right.

00:13:06.440 So maybe I'd be able to, this is going to help me to kind of, you know, solve this or

00:13:11.060 resolve this.

00:13:11.720 I mean, we, we sat in a sauna for hours and sweating it.

00:13:15.820 It was just all this crazy stuff, you know, that the Scientologists do, um, and sucking

00:13:20.820 your money.

00:13:21.440 It was just very, very costly.

00:13:23.560 But, but it comes to the point that, that my mom was desperate and she wanted to fix the

00:13:31.000 situation.

00:13:31.520 You know, I don't know, Al, if you ever heard of the term tiger mom.

00:13:34.440 Yeah.

00:13:35.180 Asian moms have, have their, they're very, it's kind of like, uh, mama bears in a sense.

00:13:41.520 Uh, but it's, it's a Chinese version, I guess, of mama bears.

00:13:44.800 These are tigers, uh, that are going to protect their children and fix things.

00:13:50.560 And my mom wanted to fix the situation.

00:13:53.360 So she was looking for everything.

00:13:54.560 So actually from when I was 16 to 18 in high school, after that, I was like, okay, we fixed

00:13:59.680 this, we've tackled this.

00:14:01.000 Well, the problem is this is not just merely a developmental psychological problem.

00:14:07.480 This is a sin nature issue, which we can't on human effort solve that, that we always

00:14:15.100 are going to deal with it.

00:14:16.060 So even though I thought I had, you know, taken care of it, there was still these temptations

00:14:21.560 that I had that were unchosen.

00:14:23.640 And I didn't, I didn't want these, um, just as all of us, we all have unchosen sinful temptations

00:14:30.080 that God calls us to resist by the power of the Holy spirit.

00:14:34.460 Um, and, but we're not called to be in bondage to this.

00:14:37.140 So, because I had no way to understand temptations and our sin nature, I, they kind of just festered

00:14:44.920 underneath until I was 18 and then 19.

00:14:47.340 And then it was then that I started acting out, uh, when I was in college a little bit,

00:14:52.420 I went to the Marine Corps and, but just keeping this underneath and that's never a good way

00:14:59.200 to deal with things just to suppress it, you know, whether, you know, you, you know, you're

00:15:03.900 suppressing these desires and these temptations.

00:15:06.160 And so it wasn't until my early twenties, when I was 22, that then when I moved to Louisville

00:15:10.820 that I, that just came out.

00:15:17.340 And when, and why did you turn to drugs?

00:15:28.300 Did that have to do with the sexual life that you had chosen to?

00:15:33.420 Yeah, that's a good question.

00:15:34.720 And, you know, a lot of times people, when they hear my story, they think, you know, I'm

00:15:38.540 saying all gay men do drugs, you know, obviously not.

00:15:42.200 Um, there are, you know, lots, lots of people in general who do drugs.

00:15:46.280 However, I do see that there's a correlation in that when you begin suppressing God's truth,

00:15:54.520 then, and morality, there is then no morality.

00:15:58.940 And that's exactly kind of the line of thinking.

00:16:01.880 It's not a causation, but there's definitely a correlation that I thought, well, you know,

00:16:08.660 what's wrong about having sex with a man?

00:16:11.780 I'm not hurting anyone.

00:16:12.860 And then I began justifying that same logic.

00:16:16.160 And I thought, well, what's so, this is just a pill.

00:16:18.220 I started with ecstasy.

00:16:20.380 It seems very innocuous.

00:16:22.420 Like, is it very harmful?

00:16:23.360 It's, we all take aspirins, right?

00:16:25.220 I mean, you know, Ali, you take aspirin, you take Tylenol.

00:16:28.020 I mean, not now, but you know, it's, we're, we, it's so easy to begin justifying sin.

00:16:36.600 We never have to go looking for it.

00:16:38.340 So that's where it started with just ecstasy.

00:16:41.380 I thought I'm not putting anything up my nose.

00:16:43.480 I'm not shooting anything in my arms with needles.

00:16:46.500 And it's just a very, and I'm just doing it once a week.

00:16:49.440 Well, guess what happens?

00:16:51.240 Once a week begins twice a week.

00:16:53.600 Oh, it's just on weekends, right?

00:16:54.880 We, we, we always justifying it.

00:16:57.560 And, um, so as much as people, activists, gay activists like to say there's no correlation

00:17:05.500 or there's no, uh, causation, we all know, you know, people in the drug world, if you want

00:17:14.440 to find good drugs, you go to the gay community.

00:17:17.140 That was just known.

00:17:18.840 Um, good ecstasy, good, you know, they're just, the list goes down.

00:17:24.120 Um, and people, why do people who do the club drugs go to the gay clubs?

00:17:29.960 Cause that's where you find the good high quality drugs.

00:17:33.960 So there's definitely a correlation.

00:17:36.220 There's no, I wouldn't say a causation, but it's, uh, the line of thinking where you degrade

00:17:43.080 and suppress truth and God's moral law.

00:17:48.060 That's in our hearts.

00:17:49.300 That's in our conscience.

00:17:50.460 Romans one, then anything goes, this is where we get you do you, you know, you do you is not

00:17:57.340 unique to our time now.

00:17:58.720 Right.

00:17:59.320 Go to first century Rome.

00:18:01.080 We're just repeating history.

00:18:03.300 Unfortunately, you do you is from the playbook from first century Rome.

00:18:09.880 Yep.

00:18:10.160 And I mean, it kind of goes all the way back to the garden too.

00:18:13.680 That's right.

00:18:14.580 Exactly.

00:18:15.180 Judges.

00:18:16.160 Yes.

00:18:16.720 Genesis three.

00:18:17.860 And you said your parents didn't know that this was happening, but you got kicked out of

00:18:22.900 dental school because of your drug addiction and selling drugs, right?

00:18:28.480 Yes.

00:18:29.000 Yep.

00:18:29.540 And then, yeah.

00:18:30.500 Go ahead.

00:18:30.820 Yeah, they, they didn't know the extent they, they, you know, I had said that I was doing

00:18:37.480 drugs, but they didn't know that I was selling drugs, but they knew they're like, okay, our

00:18:42.840 son, he's not working, but he's traveling all over the place.

00:18:47.160 So he knew something nefarious was definitely going on.

00:18:50.420 They just didn't, didn't know what, and, and Ali, you mentioned, you know, you have most

00:18:55.880 likely people watching right now, mothers of prodigals and what I always want to remind

00:19:02.700 mothers of prodigals is whatever situation your child is going through, whether it's

00:19:07.320 drugs like me or whether it's, you know, uh, identifying the wrong identity with their

00:19:14.120 sexuality or their so-called gender or what anything it is, as glaring of a problem as that

00:19:22.240 is, that actually is not their biggest problem.

00:19:26.140 Their biggest problem is their need to know and follow Jesus.

00:19:31.200 How can we go and sin no more if we don't know Jesus Christ?

00:19:36.500 How can we be set free from our sin?

00:19:38.960 The bondage of sin, God has provided the, the solution for the bondage of sin.

00:19:44.900 And that is life in Christ.

00:19:47.380 That doesn't mean that you're going to be struggle free, but that means we'll no longer be in

00:19:52.120 bondage.

00:19:52.820 You will still be tempted.

00:19:54.380 Jesus was tempted, but you're no longer where you like, you have no other option than to give

00:19:58.820 into temptations.

00:20:00.380 And that's the joy that we have.

00:20:02.720 And parents need to remember that because why does that matter?

00:20:05.940 Because now we know that we're going to be praying for the right thing.

00:20:09.700 If your child stops doing drug right now, if your child gets out of prison right now and

00:20:15.980 they don't know Christ, they're still in prison and bondage.

00:20:21.380 They're not for free.

00:20:22.780 And I'm so glad that my mom and dad knew that that was the most important thing.

00:20:27.880 Yes, they didn't know that I was doing drugs or even selling drugs.

00:20:31.040 I mean, I was supplying drugs to dealers in over a dozen states.

00:20:34.760 You know, this is, this is what happens.

00:20:37.560 Satan knows to use people who are gifted.

00:20:40.880 I had tons of experience in the business world working in my dad's dental office.

00:20:46.260 God had given me a mind where I'd gone to school and college and graduate school.

00:20:50.020 And, and the enemy was using that not for good, but using that for evil.

00:20:56.860 And I was, you know, immediately I was excelling before all the other drug dealers because I

00:21:02.760 had done business.

00:21:03.580 I was treating this like a business, an illegal business.

00:21:07.120 And so I had grown and grown and that was not my biggest problem.

00:21:13.140 My biggest problem was I needed to know and surrender my whole life to Jesus Christ.

00:21:19.760 And my parents prayed for that.

00:21:20.760 My parents enlisted others to pray for that as well.

00:21:24.060 And what was your feeling when you found out that your parents had become Christians and

00:21:28.800 not just nominal Christians, but they were the praying, the fasting, the Bible studying kinds

00:21:33.160 of Christians.

00:21:33.580 And you had been raised in a secular home where, you know, your parents just tried to

00:21:38.620 fix you even through Scientology.

00:21:40.100 You had no idea really of a Christian worldview.

00:21:43.120 What was your reaction to that?

00:21:45.740 I thought they lost their mind.

00:21:47.500 You know, I just thought, you know, but, but I will have to say, um, they were on the brink

00:21:54.720 of a divorce.

00:21:56.040 You know, my mom and dad came to the United States.

00:21:59.360 They were, they had nothing.

00:22:01.400 They were broke.

00:22:02.160 And my father only had $50 in his pocket.

00:22:07.240 Wow.

00:22:07.680 And when did they come?

00:22:08.740 I'm just curious.

00:22:09.340 When did they come to the United States?

00:22:10.020 My father came in 1963 and my mother came a year after that.

00:22:16.060 And then they got married in 1965.

00:22:18.600 Quite the time in China.

00:22:21.060 What's that?

00:22:21.760 I said quite the time in China.

00:22:23.140 I mean, you can see why they came.

00:22:24.260 Well, they were actually, fortunately, some of the fortunate ones that fled Taiwan, which

00:22:28.600 is insane.

00:22:29.100 I mean, we're, you know, as much as people are trying to glorify communism.

00:22:34.100 My parents, my grandparents fled for their lives from communism.

00:22:40.460 Yes.

00:22:40.680 We don't want that.

00:22:42.020 We don't want socialism.

00:22:43.340 We don't want communism.

00:22:44.780 That's why my parents came here.

00:22:47.020 There's no other country where, where you can go one generation from zero money to my parents

00:22:54.880 work their tails off pursuing the American dream and they achieved it.

00:23:01.160 But this is the thing.

00:23:02.240 They achieved it and thought they would be happy.

00:23:04.780 Right.

00:23:05.600 Right.

00:23:06.060 And, you know, they had the Mercedes, you know, two Mercedes.

00:23:10.680 They had a really nice house in a nice western suburb of Chicago.

00:23:16.820 We were affluent.

00:23:17.740 And again, I mean, we went from zero, zero money, $50 in my father's, and they worked

00:23:23.240 hard.

00:23:23.660 We did not rely on the government.

00:23:25.080 We did not take handouts.

00:23:27.060 They worked harder to get.

00:23:29.460 My dad got his PhD.

00:23:31.080 He got another doctorate.

00:23:33.020 So he's, he has two doctors.

00:23:34.520 I call him a paradox.

00:23:35.740 Yeah.

00:23:35.980 And they worked hard.

00:23:37.600 My mom, and this is so important for why so I appreciate what you do, Allie.

00:23:42.420 My mom, she went to the number one high school in Taiwan.

00:23:47.280 All, every single one of her friends, as she continues to say, every single one of her

00:23:51.500 friends has a doctorate or at least a master's.

00:23:55.140 They were career woman.

00:23:56.920 My mom came to the United States for her doctorate and she rebelled.

00:24:02.540 You know how she rebelled?

00:24:04.300 She got married.

00:24:06.140 Wow.

00:24:06.620 All she wanted to do in life was not to get a PhD, but to be a good mom and a good wife.

00:24:15.180 That is all.

00:24:16.240 And that was rebellion in my, and why was it rebellion?

00:24:19.680 Because my grandparents, they're like, you know, we're sending you off to another country

00:24:24.060 to have a better life, not to get married.

00:24:27.100 That's, you have to be successful.

00:24:28.960 You got to get your doctorate and, and do all that.

00:24:32.260 All my mom wanted to do was to do the, what I believe is one of the most important jobs

00:24:39.980 that we have today.

00:24:41.260 And it's not that mothers, you're doing nothing.

00:24:44.160 You're doing everything of being a mom.

00:24:47.160 My mom, she would not give me and my brother to babysitters.

00:24:53.700 She worked night shift while my dad, and she put my dad through two doctorates and she

00:25:01.160 never had a babysitter because she took care of us.

00:25:05.600 Then my dad would come home from school and then she would go to work and she got paid

00:25:11.260 minimum wage and worked her, you know, the eight hour shift and then came home, slept.

00:25:21.160 My dad will wake up in the morning.

00:25:22.660 And my mom says that through my dad and mom said through those years, four years, almost

00:25:28.500 straight, they basically communicated through a notebook because they would be passing.

00:25:33.880 But that's how important my mom knew the job of being a mother.

00:25:39.000 We cannot farm it off to anyone.

00:25:40.920 And when we do, why are we surprised that our kids, you know, are acting like the way they

00:25:45.600 are?

00:25:46.460 Um, there is no more important job and, than being a mother.

00:25:50.880 And why are we surprised that the enemy is attacking the very, so important job and role of motherhood?

00:26:01.780 Um, it is viewed to be, it's stigmatized.

00:26:05.640 It is viewed to be unimportant.

00:26:07.400 It is viewed to be, and then when we're complaining about the loss of our, this younger generation,

00:26:14.320 it stems to not just fatherlessness, but also motherlessness.

00:26:19.280 Um, and so I just praise the Lord that my mom, um, even though she's extremely capable, like

00:26:26.900 my father, even though he has two doctorates, we know the brains are with my mom.

00:26:31.380 She has huge business sense, people, personnel at, um, you know, communication skills and working

00:26:37.940 with people.

00:26:38.360 So when my, my brother and I were in junior high and high school, uh, during that time,

00:26:45.480 actually my dad went back to, you know, get his second doctorate, uh, went to dental because

00:26:49.460 being a PhD in physical chemistry teaching that, you know, that's hard to, to support your

00:26:54.860 children.

00:26:55.240 And, and, and so all that, but he became a dentist and he was 39.

00:26:59.400 So he was older, but, um, my mom, she, uh, took care of the dental office and made the

00:27:06.920 dental office really grow, got a real estate.

00:27:09.080 She has a very sharp business mind.

00:27:11.080 So she, it wasn't that she became a mom because she was incapable or didn't have ability.

00:27:16.780 She had the ability and use that all her abilities to pour into, again, how are we going to shape

00:27:23.780 this younger generation if we're not shaping it into the lives of our children?

00:27:28.420 So you had, even though they weren't Christians, you had examples of parents who, at least when

00:27:34.560 you were, um, at least when you were growing up, that they were unified in their goal to

00:27:41.340 take care of you and your brother and to work really hard.

00:27:44.320 And so you had a pretty traditional and good example of what a cohesive family looked like.

00:27:50.200 Um, as you were, you know, coming out and saying, this is what my sexuality is.

00:27:55.020 And this is what my identity is.

00:27:56.840 Did you ever think about, wow, I'm not ever going to be able to have what my parents had.

00:28:02.840 Like, I'm never going to have that kind of structure that I benefited from growing up.

00:28:06.820 Or was that not even a thought because you were so kind of deep into the community and

00:28:11.280 selling drugs and things like that, that you weren't really thinking about, you know, living

00:28:15.820 in the suburbs with a family?

00:28:17.800 Well, you know, this is in my early twenties and when, as we all know, you know, when you're

00:28:25.840 in your later teenage years, early twenties, what we have going on so much are hormones and

00:28:32.360 just our desires are raging.

00:28:34.420 I think, um, I probably went through puberty later in life.

00:28:39.480 I mean, that's just an Asian thing.

00:28:40.980 Um, you know, and, and I hated looking when I was 18, I looked like I was 12 and I was 20.

00:28:46.860 I look like I'm whatever, 16.

00:28:48.340 And now I'm, I'm claiming that I'm 52 years old and I'm glad that I maybe don't look like

00:28:55.120 other 52 years old.

00:28:56.140 So I'm claiming that looking younger, but you know, when you're 20, you don't want to

00:29:00.280 look like you're 12 or 16.

00:29:02.980 And, um, so I, I, I do think that I, I matured a little later in life.

00:29:08.300 So during that time, I mean, it was all about these desires and what other way to be happy.

00:29:16.340 If there's no God, our happiness is fulfilling our desires.

00:29:21.260 That's what the world is saying.

00:29:22.440 You have a desire that's, that's Oprah ism, you know, that's kind of the, the,

00:29:26.020 the, one of the religions of the land and just you do you, you have a desire that that's

00:29:32.260 your truth, not just you need to do it, but that's your truth.

00:29:35.920 And that was even prevalent in the, in the eighties and early nineties.

00:29:39.400 So for me it was, yeah, I mean, I think I, I, I would have liked to, to get married, have

00:29:47.240 children, um, live in the suburbs, but it was no longer, you know, with, with, uh, with

00:29:54.000 a woman, but now with a man, I could, I could do that too.

00:29:57.060 Right.

00:29:57.280 I mean, it's, it's what you talk about a lot.

00:29:59.860 Well, you know, I can, I could do this artificially.

00:30:02.800 I could adopt or, or all these things, which as we know, kids need a mother and a father and

00:30:09.940 it's distorting what is historic, not just historically, but biblically and God's morality

00:30:15.980 of, of what families and motherhood and fatherhood look like.

00:30:19.580 But with the world kind of giving these artificial ways, I thought I could still fulfill that.

00:30:25.440 But ultimately it was, what do I desire?

00:30:28.280 What do I want?

00:30:29.600 Putting myself and taking God off the throne and putting me on the throne.

00:30:34.740 I often would say in my testimony, in my world, I had become God.

00:30:41.120 And isn't that the story of everyone?

00:30:43.940 In essence, we want to put ourselves on God's throne, unfortunately, even as Christians.

00:30:49.600 And yet there's only one God.

00:30:52.020 There's only one Lord.

00:30:53.060 There's only one King.

00:30:54.440 And that's Jesus.

00:30:55.340 And you were in prison, which I guess you met the dead end that comes from self-worship.

00:31:15.820 It always leads where Satan, you know, tells you it never will.

00:31:20.980 And the same thing in the Garden of Eden.

00:31:23.600 And did God really say, look, you can do this and be like God.

00:31:26.800 You exchanged the God of scripture for the God of self.

00:31:29.280 You think it's going to lead to ultimate fulfillment.

00:31:32.140 You'll finally get to the pinnacle of satisfaction, whether it's, you know, financial success or

00:31:37.660 relationships or just personal happiness.

00:31:39.580 Like you said, it always ends in some kind of destruction.

00:31:43.500 But God used that destruction as a mercy.

00:31:45.780 I think I remember the part of your testimony where you said you were laying on the cotton.

00:31:50.320 You looked up and you saw a verse, Jeremiah 29, 11, for I know the plans I have for you,

00:31:56.040 not to harm you, but to prosper you.

00:31:58.780 You started reading the Bible.

00:32:01.680 And I mean, we could and we could go through all of that time and we don't have time to

00:32:06.140 do all of that.

00:32:06.880 But I'd like at what point, OK, you realize, wow, OK, this could be real.

00:32:11.660 Your mom had been praying for you and you realized this issue that you were a sinner and

00:32:18.480 that that was your main problem.

00:32:19.920 That was your core problem.

00:32:20.760 It wasn't the drugs, as you said.

00:32:21.980 It wasn't the sexualities.

00:32:23.060 You said it was that the two were lost, that you were a sinner.

00:32:25.820 But how long after that did you understand, OK, I cannot follow Christ and all of these

00:32:34.900 desires that I have over here, all of these lusts, this identity that I've told myself

00:32:40.540 I am my sexuality.

00:32:42.260 How long did it take within your Christian walk to realize, wow, these two things don't

00:32:47.180 match up?

00:32:48.920 This is the beauty of conversion stories.

00:32:52.560 You know, they're they're not cookie cutter.

00:32:56.060 My mother, when she came to faith, she was going to end her life.

00:32:59.540 I mean, my parents were about to get a divorce.

00:33:01.700 My brother was kind of doing his own thing.

00:33:03.740 I came out and I was like her last ray of hope.

00:33:06.860 So she was going to end her life.

00:33:08.720 And so on May 15th, 1993, she remembers that she was taking a train back from Chicago to

00:33:13.720 Louisville to end her life and say goodbye to me and then end her life.

00:33:16.820 And she got this little tract from a minister that we knew and they shared with her the gospel,

00:33:21.520 which is amazing.

00:33:22.480 Tracks, some tracks actually do work.

00:33:24.680 And so for her, it was just instantaneous.

00:33:27.520 She knew from she stepped on that train dead in her sins and she came off that train alive

00:33:34.660 in Christ.

00:33:35.380 She knows it was one day for me.

00:33:37.820 It was not one day.

00:33:38.880 Like I think it's just because I'm so hard headed and it was in prison that it was this

00:33:45.160 time I needed, maybe it was, I necessarily needed it because it was, I had so many hardened

00:33:53.040 layers to peel away that it was this time in prison of this, maybe the first year of God

00:34:01.540 growing me.

00:34:02.160 So when I saw that verse, Jeremiah 29, 11, um, I had always known there was a God coming back to

00:34:12.100 like what we talked about.

00:34:13.240 Not only did God put in us a conscience, but he put in us the knowledge that there is a God.

00:34:20.960 Unfortunately, again, we suppress that.

00:34:22.860 So I knew ever since I was a little kid that there was a God, but you know, God made us in

00:34:27.000 his own image and then we returned the favor and we created God in our own image.

00:34:30.860 So I had a concept of God, but I made him into my own likeness.

00:34:35.720 I made him into this, a you do you type of God.

00:34:39.640 And that's not God.

00:34:41.660 So I knew there was a God.

00:34:43.380 So when I saw that verse, I was like, Oh yeah, then this is, you know, there is a God.

00:34:48.100 I knew that, but I still was thinking this, you do you.

00:34:51.800 And it took this where God had to correct me and to, and to rework kind of do damage control

00:35:02.260 into all I had kind of put these lies into my mind of who I thought God was.

00:35:07.380 And it took a year of that first year where it was me releasing all these things of my

00:35:15.800 false beliefs of who God was and who I was, because I still, I had so many idols, you know,

00:35:22.440 I, not just drugs.

00:35:24.220 That was the most obvious, but it took that time of that first year where God began to

00:35:29.700 convict me that this is an idol.

00:35:31.380 You need to let it go.

00:35:32.920 That was the drugs.

00:35:33.760 You need to let go of another idol is, was just the party sing.

00:35:39.060 I thought, okay, I won't do drugs here again.

00:35:41.140 This is so funny when I think about it, you know, justification.

00:35:44.020 I was like, okay, I won't do the drugs, but I love music, you know?

00:35:47.540 And that was kind of the, the crazy kind of the trance music, which I don't know.

00:35:51.700 I mean, I think there has to be research out there that that trance dance music needs

00:35:55.640 to just make you dumber.

00:35:56.940 It does.

00:35:57.320 It's classical music will make you smarter.

00:36:00.280 That type of music and others.

00:36:01.940 I'm not going to name the others.

00:36:03.000 We'll just, I think we'll just make you dumber.

00:36:05.800 And, um, and so I really, really thought that I could not do drugs, but, you know, still

00:36:13.720 kind of go out to the clubs and have fun.

00:36:16.360 You know, you hang out with dogs.

00:36:18.540 Guess what?

00:36:18.900 You're going to catch fleas.

00:36:20.820 And God needs to convict me.

00:36:22.800 Um, you know, I need to let that idol go.

00:36:25.840 And there's a lot of other things in life.

00:36:27.900 And I went through this in my first book.

00:36:29.620 I asked myself, what is it that I feel like I can't live without that's an idol.

00:36:37.900 And it was so many things that I felt like I couldn't live without.

00:36:41.400 And that last one that God really needed to deal with me was my sexuality and my sexual

00:36:47.820 identity.

00:36:48.160 So I would say, and, and so interesting, I shared this with a chaplain.

00:36:53.120 I was not open about my sexuality because I saw others who had been open and they were

00:36:57.340 just super flamboyant.

00:36:58.420 And that was not me.

00:36:59.520 That was not all gay men are flamboyant.

00:37:02.500 Uh, some are, but I was not.

00:37:04.640 Most of my friends are, were, when you go to the checkout counter and you see all those

00:37:11.680 men's fitness magazines, those buff men, they're all gay.

00:37:15.960 I knew many of them.

00:37:17.360 I sold drugs to them, which is so funny when I see these men who don't struggle with same

00:37:21.800 sex attractions, looking and flipping through this.

00:37:23.960 And I'm thinking, you're just looking at a magazine of gay men.

00:37:26.200 Um, you know, it's, it's all vanity.

00:37:29.380 And, um, so that, that was my world.

00:37:32.960 Uh, but you know, there's, when I was, you know, being, being convicted of this and, and

00:37:41.120 during this time, I knew I, I needed to let go of, of this idol and this idol of this identity.

00:37:47.820 This is who I am was the last longest part.

00:37:51.900 This chaplain gave me this book.

00:37:53.800 He said this, you know, the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality and everything inside

00:37:59.500 of me wanted to just seize that book.

00:38:01.980 That's what the chaplain told you.

00:38:02.560 The chaplain told you the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality.

00:38:07.180 Even gave me a book.

00:38:08.840 Wow.

00:38:09.120 I just look back on, on what my, my story and I, I counted, there's so many miracles and

00:38:17.240 I count that as one miracle there, according to just logic, everything pointed inside of

00:38:27.580 me and all logic outside.

00:38:29.760 I should have just embraced that and ran with it.

00:38:33.040 I spent time reading it and praise the Lord that as I read that book, I had that book in

00:38:39.780 one hand and the word of God in the other and everything inside of me wanted to affirm that

00:38:45.420 human written book.

00:38:46.740 But I know now I look back now, it was the Holy spirit convicting me that it was just

00:38:53.620 distorting so clearly as if I had just read that book without the Bible open with it.

00:38:58.700 I don't, I think I would have just gone with it.

00:39:00.320 I'd be like, Oh yeah, yes, yes, yes.

00:39:02.280 But as I, as this author mentioned Romans one of first, I would go back and I would read

00:39:08.040 the word of God.

00:39:09.280 And it was just, I was like that, that's not what this author is claiming.

00:39:14.000 That's just plain reading of scripture.

00:39:16.740 That's the Holy spirit convicting me.

00:39:18.780 I couldn't get through that book and I gave it back to the chaplain.

00:39:21.900 So I turned to the Bible alone, what going through every verse, the, you know, the chaplain

00:39:27.120 was like, Oh, the Bible doesn't condemn it.

00:39:29.360 So I was like, well, let me see where the Bible would actually bless it.

00:39:33.440 Does any verse actually affirm this?

00:39:36.480 I went through every verse, every chapter, every page looking for justification and I

00:39:41.700 couldn't find it.

00:39:42.700 Exactly.

00:39:43.320 I wanted everything inside of me and I couldn't find it.

00:39:46.860 You know, I think that's one of the hardest things today, not just for people who are struggling

00:39:52.420 with their sexuality, but for everyone else who is told, well, the Bible really doesn't

00:39:57.720 condemn it.

00:39:58.120 Jesus never talked about homosexuality and you hear story after story.

00:40:02.260 I mean, I see this all the time and it's usually appeals to women in my demographic and it's

00:40:08.300 these testimonies so-called of people who suppressed their sexuality their whole lives.

00:40:13.880 They were typically, they were raised in the evangelical church.

00:40:16.880 And so their testimony is one of realizing that they can reconcile being a Christian with

00:40:22.740 being gay or being transgender or being non-binary.

00:40:25.880 And they finally had this revelation that God just wants them to be who they are.

00:40:31.660 That's typically the language that they use.

00:40:33.620 And then they cast everyone else who disagrees with that as these like kind of antiquated

00:40:38.320 bigots.

00:40:38.880 You talked about Oprah ism.

00:40:40.940 There's a clip that goes around every so often from decades ago where a young woman in the

00:40:46.260 audience is saying to Oprah, you know, this is against God's design.

00:40:51.220 You say that you're a Christian and how can you affirm this?

00:40:53.840 And Oprah basically says, look, I believe that, you know, God is love and God is big enough

00:40:58.440 that he can accept all kinds of people.

00:41:00.800 That is the revelation of the day.

00:41:02.540 That is the story of the day.

00:41:04.500 And it sounds really good.

00:41:07.040 No one wants to be called a bigot.

00:41:08.760 No one wants to be called a phobe.

00:41:10.700 No one wants to be seen as narrow minded.

00:41:13.180 No one wants to be seen as legalistic or a Pharisee or overly religious.

00:41:17.860 And Jesus's cast is on the side of the oppressed and the marginalized and the misunderstood that

00:41:22.260 must include LGBTQ people.

00:41:24.440 You don't want to be on the other side of that.

00:41:27.240 And so that is the story.

00:41:29.840 That is the emotional manipulation.

00:41:31.340 I call it like empathy extortion that I think a lot of Christians undergo and deal with.

00:41:39.580 And it is tough.

00:41:40.840 It is tough to stand against that and to be told constantly you are hateful if you don't

00:41:46.140 accept that.

00:41:47.320 So tell us about that for like, is it possible?

00:41:51.980 You and I know, but is it possible to be a practicing gay person?

00:41:59.480 A practicing transgender, whatever person and follow Christ?

00:42:06.460 Well, you know, just like you said, the I need to be myself.

00:42:13.760 I'm finally able to be myself, embrace who I am and be happy.

00:42:19.680 And, you know, since the time I've come to know Christ, which is over 20 years, which I still feel

00:42:25.020 like I'm a brand new Christian, I have searched the pages of scripture looking for where God calls us to be

00:42:32.720 yourself, to embrace who you are.

00:42:35.180 It's not there.

00:42:36.320 Rather, Jesus is calling every Christian, not just people like myself who've come from that past.

00:42:43.020 He's calling every Christian to do what?

00:42:45.480 Christ, deny himself, deny herself, pick up your cross and follow me.

00:42:52.280 That's so key.

00:42:54.720 And here's where I think Christians and people who hold to a biblical view of sexuality, what I think, where we

00:43:03.380 understand this is sinful behavior, what we sometimes don't fully grasp when we're trying to understand

00:43:11.100 where the world is, when we're trying to understand where our loved ones are coming from, who have

00:43:15.700 rejected Christianity, historic, biblical Christianity, and now embracing themselves and embracing their

00:43:24.160 sexuality or gender.

00:43:25.300 It's this.

00:43:26.900 The world has conflated sexuality with personhood, that we treat our desires to be who we are.

00:43:38.540 The term gay, straight, bi, heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual don't define people.

00:43:47.220 This is so important.

00:43:49.000 The term gay, straight, bi, heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual don't define people.

00:43:54.100 They define our desires.

00:43:57.660 They define our behaviors.

00:44:00.180 They define our attractions.

00:44:03.100 No logic can ever say that a desire is a person.

00:44:07.580 Even if a desire is strong or unchosen.

00:44:12.260 So there's no gay people.

00:44:14.160 There's gay desires.

00:44:15.820 There's no lesbian women.

00:44:18.620 It's lesbian relationships.

00:44:21.480 It's we have to.

00:44:22.440 A relationship is not equivalent to a person, nor is an action equivalent to ourself or our

00:44:29.440 essence.

00:44:29.960 And this is where, this is why people said, oh, you're so hateful or they see this as offensive.

00:44:37.680 Even Oprah, like you say, oh, I view a God who accepts all people.

00:44:42.860 God accepts people.

00:44:44.420 He does not accept sin.

00:44:48.020 And when, see, as a Christian now, I can hate my sin without hating myself.

00:44:54.580 Before I knew Christ, I could not do that.

00:44:57.680 I could not hate my sin without hating myself because I equated my sexual desires and my sexual

00:45:07.440 behaviors with who I was.

00:45:10.760 And these were unchosen temptations and enduring and strong struggles.

00:45:17.000 But regardless of whether how strong or unchosen an attraction is, it never should be who we

00:45:25.100 are.

00:45:26.460 So should a person, can a person be gay and Christian?

00:45:30.540 Can a person be lesbian and Christian?

00:45:33.560 Let's actually broaden that question out.

00:45:36.480 Can a person be an adulterous Christian?

00:45:39.140 Can a person be a lying Christian?

00:45:40.840 I'm not talking about that they struggle with it.

00:45:43.180 I'm not talking about, for example, even like King David.

00:45:47.080 Was he committing adultery?

00:45:49.020 Absolutely.

00:45:49.740 Was he a murder?

00:45:51.000 Absolutely.

00:45:52.220 But when time came and he was confronted with his sin, he repented.

00:45:58.660 What we're talking about is continuous unrepentant sin.

00:46:03.720 So can a person be in continuous unrepentant sin as a fornicator or as a gossiper, as a liar?

00:46:11.840 No.

00:46:12.300 And maybe if so, it shouldn't be for long because the Holy Spirit is to convict us of sin, as

00:46:20.360 scripture teaches us.

00:46:22.020 And if we see a person in continuous unrepentant sin, that's evidence that the Holy Spirit isn't

00:46:27.960 abiding in this person and this person actually isn't truly saved.

00:46:32.720 So none of us should identify with our sin.

00:46:38.260 We have Christians today who are trying to justify and say, well, no, I'm just gay.

00:46:44.320 It's okay to use these terms.

00:46:45.960 We're just quibbling over words.

00:46:47.180 It's not.

00:46:48.000 This is quibbling over the blood of Jesus.

00:46:50.740 This is quibbling over does the blood of Jesus cover just our actions, as some so-called gay

00:46:57.500 celibate Christians are trying to say?

00:46:59.580 Or does the blood of Jesus actually transform the whole person so that the old is gone, the

00:47:08.520 new has come?

00:47:09.220 People who continue to use this terminology of their old dead man aren't living in their

00:47:15.500 new self in Christ.

00:47:17.620 This is not just quibbling over words.

00:47:20.680 This is quibbling over the blood of Jesus.

00:47:35.020 And it's so freeing.

00:47:36.660 It really is so liberating to separate your desires from your identity.

00:47:41.880 And for some reason, I think when it's sexual desires, it's more difficult to do.

00:47:46.280 So people understand that when you maybe have a desire to binge drink or have a desire to

00:47:51.380 do drugs, most people don't put that as their identity.

00:47:54.540 They don't want to.

00:47:55.540 They don't say, well, I am an alcoholic and I can't change.

00:47:59.380 Say, this is something that I do.

00:48:01.300 This is something I'm addicted to.

00:48:03.440 And so they do separate it.

00:48:05.160 But when it comes to sexuality, it's different and it's more difficult because it's not just

00:48:09.340 dealing with the body.

00:48:10.240 It's not just a physical desire.

00:48:12.020 It can also turn into an emotional desire and even like a spiritual mingling.

00:48:17.900 There is something different about the sexual act than drinking too much liquor or taking

00:48:26.260 drugs.

00:48:27.000 There is a relationship there.

00:48:29.420 Even with hookups, there's something happening in your heart and your soul and your mind.

00:48:34.500 And I think that's why it's difficult to separate identity and desire when it comes to your

00:48:40.420 sexuality, because God designed sex.

00:48:44.180 He designed our bodies to not be these like separate things like this is just your body.

00:48:50.360 This is what it does.

00:48:51.440 This is your mind and this is your heart and this is what it does.

00:48:54.420 These things are intermingled.

00:48:56.300 And so I can see why it's difficult for someone to detach their sexual desires from their identity

00:49:01.640 because there's so much wrapped up in that.

00:49:04.320 Yeah, there's only one thing that God uses this metaphor or, you know, talking about one

00:49:13.220 flesh and one flesh is more than a metaphor because it is reality.

00:49:18.100 One flesh also is more than just physical.

00:49:20.820 There is a physical and non-physical union of two people together that the sex act is also

00:49:30.000 spiritual.

00:49:30.820 It involves our soul as well that this is why when we have these serial relationships going

00:49:37.680 from one to another, like you were saying, the hookups, why is that so detrimental to us

00:49:43.120 emotionally and psychologically?

00:49:44.960 Because it's not just physical.

00:49:46.680 There is this non-physical that is even more than just emotional and psychological, but, you know,

00:49:52.160 even a spiritual coming together.

00:49:55.100 Why are all the pagan religions that we know of that sex is involved in that?

00:50:01.280 Because there's something much, much more than what we see, this physical union of two

00:50:06.200 people coming together that it does point to, as actually Paul communicates in Ephesians

00:50:12.060 5, that the union of husband and wife is actually pointing to a spiritual reality and what Paul

00:50:21.480 talks about the mystery in Greek, it's the mysterion and that mystery is the beautiful union on

00:50:28.840 the last day of Christ in the church.

00:50:30.920 So actually all marriages are supposed to point to that reality.

00:50:36.000 And that's a good reminder for couples, husbands and wives, especially Christian ones who know

00:50:43.620 God's word, that our marriages should point to a spiritual reality.

00:50:50.400 And that is the beauty of Christ in the church.

00:50:52.820 And I talk about these, you know, these things in my video series, you know, especially Lesson

00:50:57.680 7, that's kind of the pinnacle actually of the series where I'm talking about the beauty

00:51:01.680 of marriage and also how it talks points to the on the last day, that reality of all marriages

00:51:11.480 on earth are going to actually be fulfilled in the reality of that on the last day, all

00:51:19.060 these marriages are just a shadow of the eternal reality of Christ in the church.

00:51:25.720 My father went home to be with the Lord about a year ago.

00:51:29.100 Um, my mom is now single, a widow, not by choice.

00:51:35.980 Their marriage has been fulfilled in on the last day.

00:51:40.280 Jesus says, Matthew chapter 22, that there's not going to be any marriage in heaven.

00:51:44.900 And I know that might sound dreary or I don't know, might sound bad, but there's nothing

00:51:49.720 bad about that.

00:51:50.520 The beauty is that all of us that are the elect, all of us that are called to Christ are

00:51:58.300 going to be corporately wed to the lamb of God.

00:52:01.480 That is what marriage is pointing to.

00:52:03.040 So there's definitely this spiritual reality of the beauty of marriages on earth pointed

00:52:08.120 to that spiritual reality.

00:52:09.960 And sex is definitely not just a physical union of, it was merely a physical union of two people

00:52:16.640 coming together.

00:52:17.220 But there is, as it meant to be, of one flesh of husband and wife, one man, one woman for

00:52:25.700 life coming together physically, emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually.

00:52:31.840 And that is the beauty of marriage.

00:52:34.140 And so when we distort it, it's a distortion of so many things.

00:52:41.100 And also when, this is what's so beautiful and fascinating and a mystery that Jesus, when

00:52:48.260 he was questioned about divorce in Matthew 19 and Mark chapter 10, which by the way, I

00:52:54.280 believe is the strongest apologetic for why marriage is between a man and a woman.

00:53:00.280 You mentioned the myth.

00:53:02.200 And again, in my video series, I talk, I dispel four myths.

00:53:05.360 And one of those myths is Jesus silence.

00:53:07.480 But Jesus, when he talks about marriage, because he was questioned by the Pharisees about whether

00:53:14.180 divorce is okay, this is Matthew 19 and Mark chapter 10, he gives an answer.

00:53:19.260 And Jesus, who's never constrained by the questioner, in other words, just because they ask about

00:53:23.720 divorce, Jesus is going to answer not only that question, but the broader question.

00:53:28.380 And he answers it by going back, not to the law, but goes even before the law, which is

00:53:34.520 Genesis.

00:53:34.940 And he goes to Genesis one and Genesis two, where he says, the creator made the male and

00:53:39.560 female and the father, you know, then the two shall become one flesh.

00:53:44.200 What God has put together, let man not separate.

00:53:46.860 So he was not only refuting their, their distortion of divorce, that divorce is wrong because what

00:53:55.540 God has put together, let man not separate.

00:53:57.560 But he also adds that God made them male and female and the two shall become one flesh.

00:54:04.720 He didn't say any two.

00:54:06.360 He wanted to make sure that they knew that it was one man, one woman.

00:54:11.480 And God, Jesus being God knew that we would be struggling with that, with that definition

00:54:17.240 of marriage and put that right there in the first century and answered it and told us he

00:54:22.920 was not only schooling the Pharisees on divorce, he was also schooling them on the definition

00:54:28.660 of marriage.

00:54:29.360 So if we have an issue with what is marriage, whether it could be with all, you know, all

00:54:35.600 people or whether it's between a man and woman, this is having an issue with Jesus.

00:54:40.780 And we need to take that up with him.

00:54:43.880 Yes.

00:54:44.560 And we usually use an alliteration to talk about this because, and you brought up such

00:54:49.700 a poignant point too in your own testimony.

00:54:51.820 It's an amazing, I mean, testament to the Holy Spirit, because this is only wisdom that

00:54:57.120 can be given from God that when you are looking at that book that the chaplain gave you that

00:55:03.140 affirmed homosexuality in Christianity, and then the Bible that you are not just looking for

00:55:08.720 the specific places where the Bible said this is wrong, but you are also looking for God

00:55:14.260 to bless it.

00:55:15.240 And that is an argument that I hear a lot from so-called affirming Christians saying, well,

00:55:20.820 you know, Jesus didn't specifically ever say, do not be gay or do not be transgender or whatever.

00:55:28.060 There are so many logical problems, I think, with that argument.

00:55:31.420 But we don't, as Christians, we don't look to the Bible and say, well, not only what does

00:55:37.820 God tell me not to do, although the Bible does explicitly condemn homosexuality multiple

00:55:42.020 times, but also what does God say glorifies him?

00:55:45.460 What does God say pleases him?

00:55:48.180 That is our posture.

00:55:49.400 So we often say that the definition of marriage is between a man and a woman, is rooted in

00:55:53.740 creation.

00:55:54.160 It's reiterated throughout scripture.

00:55:56.140 It's repeated by Jesus himself, as you said in Matthew 19.

00:55:59.540 It is representative of the gospel, which you just laid out so beautifully, as we read in

00:56:03.360 Ephesians 5, or it is representative of Christ in the church, and that it's therefore reflective

00:56:08.640 of the gospel.

00:56:09.780 I think people, a lot of times, they put aside this kind of LGBTQ issue, if you will, as peripheral.

00:56:17.220 It's not really that important.

00:56:18.400 You can get everything right and not really know where you stand or be tolerant of the idea

00:56:25.120 that you can be actively gay and Christian at the same time.

00:56:28.180 But really, when you look at the definition of marriage, as you just said, was defined by Jesus

00:56:32.920 so clearly in Matthew 19, and Jesus being God also created it that way.

00:56:37.360 And then Ephesians 5, we see that that marriage supper is not gender neutral.

00:56:43.460 It is a bride and a bridegroom.

00:56:45.580 It is a bride and a bridegroom.

00:56:47.340 And we're told that the earthly relationship, as the husband is the head of the wife, loving

00:56:52.780 his wife as Christ loved the church, and the wife respecting her husband, submitting to

00:56:58.280 her husband, as to the Lord, we see that there is gospel, spiritual, eternal significance

00:57:04.940 to the definition of marriage that the relationship between two men or two women simply cannot fulfill

00:57:14.360 because there isn't that bride-bridegroom dynamic.

00:57:18.440 There isn't a reflection of that so-called marriage in eternity.

00:57:22.980 And so it's not just about Romans 1.

00:57:26.700 It's not just about Leviticus.

00:57:28.340 It's not just about 1 Corinthians 6.

00:57:30.600 It's also about Genesis 1.

00:57:32.280 It's also about Revelation 22.

00:57:34.200 It's also about everything in between that.

00:57:36.800 And I think that's also a reason that when people start waffling or wavering when it comes

00:57:41.560 to sexuality and stuff, typically you see eventually they forsake the fundamentals.

00:57:47.280 They forsake John 14, 6, that Jesus is the only way, truth, and life, and that no one

00:57:52.280 can come to the Father except through him.

00:57:54.060 Of course, because they are actually rejecting part of the gospel when they start rejecting

00:58:00.380 the definition of marriage.

00:58:01.600 It's much more than just one or two verses.

00:58:05.080 Yeah.

00:58:05.600 When we tried so hard to, you know, Jesus didn't say, I mean, Jesus didn't say anything about

00:58:10.440 incest.

00:58:10.920 Then let's use the same logic that he's okay with incest.

00:58:13.220 He didn't say anything about bestiality.

00:58:14.820 Then he's okay with that.

00:58:15.880 But, you know, when Jesus goes back to Genesis, the Pharisees were expecting him to then, you

00:58:23.460 know, to talk about the law, the law of Moses.

00:58:26.440 He goes back to Genesis and he quotes from Genesis 2, 24, which is the two shall become one

00:58:33.100 flesh.

00:58:34.080 But he also quotes from Genesis 1, 27.

00:58:36.900 And what Christians, the people in the first century, they knew this, that that verse that

00:58:41.280 Jesus just quoted is, even though they didn't have verses back then, but that's the

00:58:45.740 verse about the image of God.

00:58:47.720 And so when we talk about this distortion of marriage and you listed all those really good

00:58:54.820 things, that's, you know, it's not only distorting Genesis, it's not only distorting this, not

00:58:58.960 only distorting Jesus's own words, but Jesus was connecting marriage with actually this image

00:59:06.900 of God verse.

00:59:08.240 So that is what makes it even more.

00:59:12.080 We need to add another reason that it actually is also distorting God's image as marriage and

00:59:21.660 male and female has this correlation, clear correlation that Jesus is making himself that's

00:59:28.020 pointed to human beings created in the image of God, that it's, it's, it's, it's, there's

00:59:34.420 this inseparable link of correlation that we have there.

00:59:39.340 So when we distort it, you know, it's not only pointing to the beginning, but pointing to

00:59:44.740 the end, just like how you said, it's this mystery of Christ in the church.

00:59:48.440 We don't see that the church is married to the church.

00:59:50.620 We don't see that Christ is married to himself.

00:59:54.520 We see that Christ is married to the church, which is not only talking about what male and

01:00:03.160 female is as that's reflecting to that eternal reality, but it's even talking about our roles.

01:00:09.820 And this is where it gets really controversial.

01:00:12.160 You know, Jesus is Lord.

01:00:16.180 The church is under Christ.

01:00:20.620 Doesn't mean that we are, you know, invaluable doesn't mean that, that that's, but that is

01:00:26.620 what, you know, that reality.

01:00:28.540 And in the same way, that's the beauty of how things work.

01:00:32.620 Now, of course, when we see that reflected on earth and humanity, we love to distort that

01:00:39.060 we are just human beings.

01:00:41.240 And there are a lot of men that are not godly servant, loving men like Christ or husbands that

01:00:48.800 are loving as we are, as husbands are called to love.

01:00:52.440 How?

01:00:53.040 As Christ loved the church, which, which is what domineering?

01:00:56.420 No.

01:00:56.700 Which is oppressive?

01:00:58.160 No.

01:00:59.220 You know, Christ loved the church.

01:01:01.200 How?

01:01:01.620 By laying his life down for her.

01:01:04.400 I got to admit to me, that's the harder calling, you know, to lay your life down for your wife.

01:01:11.540 Yeah.

01:01:12.180 I'm, and I want to be clear.

01:01:14.000 I'm a single man.

01:01:14.840 I am open to getting married because I believe that God is bigger than, than, than my desire.

01:01:19.180 When people say I could never get married, people who have my past, who have same, such

01:01:23.580 attraction, they said, no, I could never marry.

01:01:25.640 I could never marry, get married to the opposite sex.

01:01:28.160 I feel like, do they not believe that God raised Lazarus from the dead?

01:01:32.620 I believe that, you know, if he can do that, this little thing of, of the desires that I

01:01:40.180 have that might seem so overwhelming for me, ain't a thing for the God that we believe

01:01:45.700 that can do anything.

01:01:47.460 So, you know, I, I'm open to that.

01:01:50.340 Uh, and, and, and we should, you know, view that, but this beauty of, of marriage is bound

01:01:55.040 up in, you know, image of God.

01:01:56.980 And when we distort it, it's, it's pointing away from what God intended and that reality

01:02:04.220 of how God created us, not only Jesus and, and, and the bride, but also how, how we are

01:02:11.940 created to be as, as men and women that are distinct, not only biologically, physiologically,

01:02:20.020 psychologically, uh, genetically, uh, but even in the beautiful roles that God has called

01:02:27.900 us to do.

01:02:29.180 And I'm, and I'm open to that, that option, whatever God has for me, my, my life is kind

01:02:34.620 of like this, an open hand, God, have your way with me right now.

01:02:38.820 I'm a single man.

01:02:39.640 I'm open to getting typically married.

01:02:42.580 God, you need to do that miracle.

01:02:43.960 And I know you're able, but if that ever happens, I know my role that I need to love my wife

01:02:49.800 as Christ loved the church.

01:02:51.400 And that's going to be hard.

01:02:52.960 Lay my life down for her.

01:02:54.600 That's not easy, but that's the, that's what God is communicating.

01:02:58.540 There's so many things that we see what marriage, you know, represents, not that it's just male

01:03:03.260 or female, but also the beautiful role that God has called us that has, God has put in our

01:03:10.420 DNA, if you will, of how we are created different, beautifully different and separate.

01:03:19.800 And how beautiful is it that we are all as Christians promised marriage one day, that we

01:03:35.440 are all going to be like given new selves, there's going to be a resurrection of the body.

01:03:41.820 So for people who have either in the past, um, committed sexual sin, which most people

01:03:47.980 have in some regard, um, or who have struggled with sexuality, people who have tried to transition

01:03:54.680 their bodies and deal with the scars that come from that.

01:03:57.440 Guess what?

01:03:58.220 Like one day, none of us are going to have scars anymore.

01:04:00.640 One day we're all going to be healed.

01:04:02.120 One day we're all going to get to enjoy the marriage feast.

01:04:04.820 And this is just, I mean, this is just a shadow, any kind of marriage or satisfaction here

01:04:10.700 on earth is a shadow of what we all get to enjoy together one day with Christ.

01:04:15.040 Um, let's talk about your, let's talk about your, uh, sexuality project, the holy sexuality

01:04:19.820 project, uh, which I'm so incredibly thankful for.

01:04:23.400 If there's anything that the church needs today, it is clarity.

01:04:27.040 There's so much confusion and the name of empathy and the name of social justice and the name

01:04:32.800 of love.

01:04:34.180 Very often Christians are just scared to say what the Bible says about these controversial

01:04:39.980 subjects.

01:04:40.620 So churches need help.

01:04:41.960 And that is part of why you created this holy sexuality project.

01:04:45.180 So tell us about it.

01:04:47.080 Well, my book, Holy Sexuality and the Gospel, uh, it was named 2020 book of the year for social

01:04:51.600 issues by Outreach Magazine.

01:04:52.760 I, I wrote that because what I saw were two groups of books, uh, books that were addressing,

01:04:59.660 you know, that same sex relationships are not God's will and looking at the biblical passages

01:05:04.220 and then other books that were a bit more like practical theology.

01:05:08.080 But I think there was a step that was completely missed after we look at these biblical passages,

01:05:14.260 which is important.

01:05:15.440 And this is applies to everything.

01:05:17.860 And we need to do some theology.

01:05:19.240 What does the breadth of scripture, all of scripture, not just these particular passages, but we need

01:05:25.320 to develop a theology.

01:05:26.500 We need to look at systematic and biblical theology if we're going to get technical with these

01:05:30.360 terms before we jump to the praxis and application, because if we try to do right without thinking

01:05:39.520 right, we could end up doing wrong.

01:05:41.980 So our orthodoxy must always precede our orthopraxy.

01:05:47.140 So I wrote this book.

01:05:48.140 It was a, essentially a theology of sexuality that I didn't really see many people doing.

01:05:53.080 And so it was not answering just what is our God's no, because we can't build a Christian

01:05:58.620 life just on God's no, but we need to know what is also God's yes.

01:06:02.840 So I wrote this book, Holy Sexuality in the Gospel and Holy Sexuality is simply chastity

01:06:07.640 and singleness or faithfulness in marriage.

01:06:10.620 In other words, when you find yourself single, how are you going to live?

01:06:13.860 You're going to be chased.

01:06:14.620 If you marry, and most people will marry, and that's biblical marriage, you need to be faithful

01:06:20.760 to your spouse of the opposite sex.

01:06:22.860 Well, I wrote that book for adults and I thought we need something for teens.

01:06:27.020 And instead of doing a book or a curriculum, which I bemoan the fact that many teens aren't

01:06:32.420 reading enough.

01:06:33.180 I thought, let's use a medium that kids are consuming voraciously right now, and that's

01:06:41.140 video.

01:06:41.840 So I created this video series, 12 lessons, 36 videos, 270 minutes of content, along with

01:06:49.000 a parent guide and a grandparent guide.

01:06:51.720 And what I believe is very unique and what makes this kind of a one of a kind is that this

01:06:56.820 specifically was created for moms and dads.

01:07:00.640 The majority of resources out there are often created for youth groups or maybe Christian

01:07:06.080 schools.

01:07:07.440 And what we wanted to change the paradigm is that biblical sexuality must be primarily

01:07:13.420 taught, not necessarily in the classroom or the youth group room, but in the living room,

01:07:18.720 in the dining room.

01:07:20.080 And we need to put this back as the primary place.

01:07:23.920 Those are secondary in the Christian classroom or in the youth group.

01:07:27.400 That secondary shouldn't be primary.

01:07:29.940 And yet there's really no resources out there.

01:07:32.640 I mean, there's a few out there that focus upon kind of just abstinence, which I think

01:07:36.800 is important, but that's just God's no.

01:07:38.960 Some of the newer ones are, seem very compassionate, but it's just this you do you, you know, whatever

01:07:45.800 your gay loved one wants, just do it.

01:07:48.300 Whether it's, you know, go to their gay wedding or use their pronouns or all these different

01:07:52.440 things.

01:07:52.760 And I wanted to be clear that it's not just love, love, but not just, we need to love people

01:08:00.120 to Christ.

01:08:01.260 If we just love, then that's you do you.

01:08:03.660 We're making love an end in itself where love needs to be a means to an end that points

01:08:10.560 to Christ.

01:08:11.460 So I wrote this curriculum that neat, that is very intentionally Christa centric.

01:08:17.440 You're probably familiar with Jen Hatmaker.

01:08:19.520 She just came up with her own curriculum for LGBTQ plus parents of LGBTQ plus children.

01:08:26.380 And you know what?

01:08:27.160 The name of her curriculum is called me course.

01:08:30.980 Of course.

01:08:32.340 I thought I'm so glad that actually she was honest about it.

01:08:37.100 She's not honest about the majority of things, but she's honest about what is the focus of

01:08:42.940 this course.

01:08:43.800 It is me centered, which should scare every Christian away.

01:08:49.560 Now, of course we have a lot of false Christians that are, you know, promoting it and, and, and,

01:08:55.200 and buying it, this course, woe to me.

01:08:59.360 If, if the center of this course is human, I want to make it very intentionally that though

01:09:06.080 we're talking about same sex attractions and sexuality, I'm broadening it out to sexuality

01:09:11.100 in general.

01:09:12.100 The focus is Jesus Christ.

01:09:14.180 Actually, I finish every single lesson with now go and follow Jesus, follow Jesus.

01:09:22.260 That's the main thing.

01:09:23.300 And what does that look like?

01:09:24.080 Cause you know, we, I'm sure, Ali, you know, people that are like, Oh, I follow Jesus.

01:09:28.100 Well, let me tell you how Jesus defines what it means to follow Jesus.

01:09:32.420 Deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Jesus.

01:09:37.680 That's what it means.

01:09:38.720 And so that's the, the heart of this message.

01:09:40.600 And so we start out with my testimony.

01:09:42.840 We talk about false identity.

01:09:44.520 Lesson two, we talk about true identity, image of God, and we're all fallen.

01:09:47.660 Then I talk about attractions, desires, and temptations and how those are different.

01:09:51.880 And then I talk about, introduce this concept of holy sexuality, chastity, and singleness,

01:09:56.860 faithfulness in marriage.

01:09:57.800 We have a whole lesson on singleness.

01:09:59.860 Lesson six, a whole lesson on marriage.

01:10:02.720 What it is, what it is not.

01:10:04.560 Then lesson eight, I answer this question that many young adults and teens are asking,

01:10:09.340 what's the big deal?

01:10:11.120 Why is God making such a big deal?

01:10:12.900 He needs to get out of my bedroom.

01:10:15.620 Lesson nine then goes over dispelling these myths.

01:10:18.220 Lesson 10 talks about sex, gender, and the image of God.

01:10:22.000 Then lesson 11 and 12 are practical.

01:10:24.920 How do we help a Christian struggling with sexual temptations?

01:10:28.300 How do we respond to someone else that is living in unrepentant sexual sin?

01:10:33.780 And then lastly, what about me or the person watching, the teenager, the parent that's struggling

01:10:38.820 themselves?

01:10:39.660 How do we follow Christ in the midst of trials and temptations?

01:10:43.280 And I focus on intimacy with Christ and intimacy with the body of Christ.

01:10:49.080 So that's those 12 lessons along with the parent guide.

01:10:51.700 And it's also a guide for grandparents as well.

01:10:55.780 This parent guide, we call it a parent slash grandparent guide because it's the parent and

01:11:00.760 grandparent that should have the main responsibility.

01:11:04.260 Look, silence is no longer an option.

01:11:07.800 Just to say, I don't know where to start is not a good excuse anymore.

01:11:12.180 I tell grandparents, all you need to know is how to press play.

01:11:16.460 I think all of your listeners watching and watching, they know how to press play.

01:11:21.520 And that's all you have to do.

01:11:22.500 Follow the instruction guide, the parent guide, and then press play and go through this.

01:11:27.180 We can't wait another day.

01:11:29.420 This actually was a $1.2 million project because there was high quality animation from animators,

01:11:34.400 illustrators, artists from the Bible project.

01:11:36.400 So very, very expensive.

01:11:37.600 We fortunately didn't pay that much, but our donors wanted so much for every Christian

01:11:42.740 family to have one at home that this should cost $200, $300 per license for a two-year

01:11:50.060 license.

01:11:50.700 Our donors are actually offering it for $20.

01:11:55.420 Many people don't even know what a steal that is, but that's how much we know the urgency

01:11:59.620 and the need for parents, Christian parents who want to have these healthy conversations

01:12:06.200 at home.

01:12:07.020 They're going to talk about it at church, but also do it at home because as much as a youth

01:12:12.240 pastor might love your child, they're not going to be with your child throughout the

01:12:17.300 week.

01:12:17.720 They're not going to be them after high school, through college, through the young adult years.

01:12:22.460 The parents will.

01:12:23.440 And so what we hope our goal is to empower grandparents, parents, preteens, and teens

01:12:30.320 to understand, embrace, and celebrate biblical sexuality, but also to begin to have these

01:12:36.640 biblical conversations around biblical sexuality and gender that's going to continue on, not

01:12:43.380 just beyond these 12 lessons, but beyond into the college years, into adult years.

01:12:49.500 That's going to set them out, set our kids up for a life.

01:12:53.500 And this really puts the parent and grandparent back in the driver's seat to do the job that

01:12:59.680 God has ordained them to do.

01:13:02.260 Yes.

01:13:02.440 And amen.

01:13:03.120 Well, thank you so much.

01:13:04.200 I really encourage everyone go to holysexuality.com.

01:13:07.260 We'll link it in the description of this episode too.

01:13:09.640 So people can just click on that easily.

01:13:11.380 But gosh, parents, as you said, pastors, individual, if you're just trying to look for clarity yourself,

01:13:16.380 but definitely like in these group settings too, where you've got friends who are struggling

01:13:21.300 with this, this could be a great conversation starter too, with a friend who may not be on

01:13:25.820 the same page as you, but she's trying to understand what's going on.

01:13:29.860 Go to holysexuality.com.

01:13:31.860 Gosh, this is so thorough.

01:13:33.780 It answers so many questions, gives such a firm foundation for us understanding what love

01:13:38.960 really looks like.

01:13:41.100 Truth-filled love that is different than the secular empathy that we're fed today that just

01:13:44.920 says affirm everyone's sin.

01:13:46.960 So thank you so much, Christopher.

01:13:48.680 I really appreciate you taking the time to come on and for creating this curriculum too.

01:13:53.200 I really, really appreciate it.

01:13:55.800 Thanks so much, Allie.

01:13:57.140 We're really grateful to be on your show again.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - August 21, 2023

Ep 859 ｜ Why You Can't Be a Gay Christian ｜ Guest： Dr. Christopher Yuan

Episode Stats

Length

Words per Minute

Word Count

Sentence Count

Misogynist Sentences

Hate Speech Sentences

Summary

Transcript