Ep 86 ｜ Woke Christianity
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Summary
In this episode, Allie interviews Daryl Harrison, co-host of The Just Thinking Podcast, about the growing trend of "woke theology" within Christianity, where it came from, what it is, and what we can do to combat it.
Transcript
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Hello, Relatable listeners. Happy Friday. Our first Relatable episode on a Friday. I hope that
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you guys have had a great week. We are going to have a conversation today. I don't usually do
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conversations or interviews on Relatable, but I'm going to start to do that on Friday. We're
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going to kind of alternate between that and probably Q&A. Sometimes the conversations will
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be with experts like it is today, and sometimes it'll be with my husband, my friends who are also
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trash people just like you and me. But today we are going to talk to a man named Daryl Harrison,
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who hosts a podcast, who co-hosts a podcast with someone else called the Just Thinking Podcast.
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And they are a theological podcast. They kind of approach culture from a reformed theological
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perspective, and they really take on this social justice Marxist stuff that we are seeing in the
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church really well. So today we are going to talk about this kind of woke theology trend that
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we're seeing within Christianity, where it came from, what it is, and how we combat it, what our
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role is as Christians who know and believe in and love the Bible, what our role is in pushing back
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on that. So I'm really excited about that conversation. Okay, now that we've talked about
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that into our conversation with Daryl. Daryl, thank you so much for joining me.
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Absolutely, Allie. You are very welcome. Thanks for having me on.
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So I have listened to probably every episode of the Just Thinking Podcast, and there are so many
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things that I want to talk to you about. But one thing that I know my audience is interested in and
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loves hearing more of and something that I really think that you are an expert on is the wokeness
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that has taken over or seems to be starting to take over parts of the evangelical community,
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even parts that previously we thought were theologically conservative. So I want to hear from you
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where that came from and why we kind of seem to be moving in that strange, progressive, woke direction.
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Yeah, well, you know, that's a great question, Allie. And my personal opinion is that we who
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comprise the church have lost sight of the fact that God has called his church, that is, you and me,
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to be holy. The bottom line there, you know, I think about a text such as Deuteronomy 1144,
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where God chooses the word holiness to describe himself to his people. And I think we've forgotten
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that, you know, in that text, God says, for I am the Lord your God, consecrate yourselves therefore
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and be holy, for I am holy. And that commandment is echoed in the New Testament as well, in 1 Peter
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1.16, where Peter says, you should be holy, for I am holy. So what that means from the standpoint of
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practical application for us in the church is that we're to have such an awe and reverence for the
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holiness and purity of God, that we aspire to live lives of holiness and purity as well. Now,
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a case in this point, and yet, you know, when you think about the whole digression that the church is
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making towards this whole woke theology movement, I think bottom line, that is the root cause of it.
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The church has lost sight of the fact that we are to live holy lives. You look at what John,
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the apostle says in 1 John 2.14, where we are not to love the world, nor the things in the world.
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And I think the church has gotten so caught up into loving the world. We are so enamored now with
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the things of the world, such as being woke, as opposed to being enamored with the things of God,
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that the church has gotten captured into that movement. And I think that's a root cause of where
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we are right now. We basically have lost sight of what God intends for his church to do, what he
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So what would you say to someone who says, well, Daryl, I can be woke and be holy at the same time.
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Being woke just means, you know, I'm aware of racial issues, or I'm aware of social justice issues.
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This would be someone who considers themselves a woke Christian. Why is being holy and being woke
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mutually exclusive? Well, you know, I kind of want to go back and answer that question and sort of
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dovetail on what I was just saying. You know, when you look at the whole woke theology movement, I mean,
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being woke itself from the standpoint of terminology and vernacular, that's just a phrase. That's just
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a term. And it's nothing more than that from a worldly standpoint. When you look at how we got here,
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how this movement sort of snuck up, if you will, and just captured the church, my argument would be
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that we got here by virtue of our affections being misplaced. And what I mean by that, our hearts are
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so oriented toward the things of the world rather than the things of God. This whole woke theology
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movement has sort of embraced us unawares. Now, when you look at what's going on with this whole woke
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movement, the problem is, is that when you say these racial issues, and everybody says that there
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are issues here, what would—issues is just another word for the sins that the Bible already deals with.
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The woke theology movement is an example of how mistracked we've gotten as a church, because it
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endeavors to bring about a society that operates on principles found in the gospel, but that are apart
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from the kind of heart change that occurs only by means of the transforming power of the gospel.
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Now, if I could quote one of my favorite theologians, I think I can bring this into more of a sharper
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context. Dr. D. Martin Lloyd-Jones once said, and I think rightly so, that the church has been trying
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to preach morality and ethics without the gospel as a basis. And that's really what the woke movement
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is all about. They want society to reflect one of biblical ethics without preaching the gospel
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that changes hearts, so that we are inclined to practice those kinds of ethics.
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Right. So do you think that's part of why people who advocate for that, why they've kind of put
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government in place of God or government in place of the church? Because someone's got to do it,
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and if God isn't the center of your theology, it's really more social justice woke theology,
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there is someone who is going to be in power in any kind of theology. So do you see people kind of
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latching on to this idea that in order to truly be compassionate, in order to truly be godly,
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we've got to get the government involved in this work of social justice and reconciliation,
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Yeah, I think you're, I have two parts, two responses to that. Number one, you're absolutely
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right. And I think the reason that is the case is because the church is attributing to government
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the mistaken attributes that they have about God. And what I mean by that is that
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the sovereignty of God is what's getting lost in all this. So the church has now developed a mindset
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by which we think that no one should suffer, no one should have any needs, that the church is involved
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in meeting every single conceivable need that anyone has, whether it be inside the church or
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outside the church. But when we really understand God and His nature, then we realize that number one,
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God is sovereign. Then number two, God, His goal is to bring glory to Himself, not to us. And a lot of
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times He brings glory to Himself through suffering. He brings glory to Himself through want. But we're
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not satisfied with that because we don't understand that aspect of God's character. So not understanding
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that. We look to government to do for us what God has said no to in our lives. So we sort of
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assuage God, or rather we relieve God of His sovereignty, and then we impart His sovereignty
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to government. And then we've developed this sort of paternalistic, maternalistic view of government
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that, well, if God won't give me what I want, I'll just look to the government to do it. And that's
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I also think it's a case of mistaken identity. It seems like over the past, I mean, it's probably
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existed longer, but especially over the past 10 years, this idea of intersectionality and the
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politics of grievance and really the gospel of grievance has kind of taken over of instead of
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seeing ourselves as Christians, as new creations, our identity being in Christ, being more than conquerors
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in Christ. We firstly identify ourselves by the way that we have been oppressed. So, and this is the
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world of intersectionality. I'm a woman. So I have to see the world through the eyes of a woman who has
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been systemically oppressed at one point. And so it's important for me to be a Christian feminist.
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And then you've got people in, or you've got people of color saying, well, I'm an immigrant or I'm a
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black person. And so I'm a black Christian. I'm an immigrant, I'm an immigrant Christian. And we see
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the world and we see justice through eyes of, through the eyes of how we have been, uh, maybe
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oppressed, maybe not, maybe just someone that we know has been oppressed. And we kind of fixate our
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theology around that, around perceived oppression. That's where you kind of get this argument for
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racial reparations and things like that. Uh, tell me why that is misguided.
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Well, first of all, it's misguided because I know I don't want to take too long to respond to
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these questions, but, but it does have many, many facets. Number one, none of us is self-created.
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Okay. Each of us was created by God and by virtue of our not being self-created, we have no
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say so, nor can we take any credit with respect to whatever attributes we may possess with respect
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to ethnicity, with respect to our sex. Uh, the apostle Paul says in one of his epistles,
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you know, what do you have that you have not received where our very identity, every single
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aspect of who we are from an identity standpoint was sovereignly, uh, uh, created for us by God
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himself. Uh, and to whatever extent, and, and oppression is such a, a subjective term. I don't
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even know if there's an objective definition for how that term is being defined because it's being
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tossed around. So, so frivolously, but to whatever extent someone does suffer oppression, number one,
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we should expect that in a sinful world. I really don't understand why oppression is so, uh, surprising
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as a reality to so many people. We live in a sinful world. This world is populated by sinners.
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You and I are two sinners who are talking to one another here. Uh, so to whatever degree, uh,
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oppression still exists, whether it's ethnic or some other type, we should not be surprised by that,
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which is why we need the gospel so much because the gospel changes hearts. Changing laws doesn't do
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a thing to change a heart. It has nothing to do with that. We can put all kinds of laws on the books,
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but what, what makes a law effective, what makes laws effectual are hearts that are inclined to
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obey them. Right. If your heart isn't inclined to obey the law, you get absolutely no benefit
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from that law. Right. Um, so, so, so, so, but, but the hyphenations that we just keep coming with,
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it's as if there's a new term, a new hyphenation, uh, every day. The church should never be divided along
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those lines. The church is comprised of believers in Christ. So, so essentially there's two types of
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people. There's believers and there's unbelievers. And our job as believers is to get the gospel out
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to unbelievers so that they don't spend an eternity separated from God. That's the bottom line.
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Yeah. Is there a place do you think for Christians to fight for legislation that is just, for example,
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abortion? We know that abortion is, is morally wrong. And so I'm a pro-life advocate and I'm sure
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like you, um, actually I know because I heard you talk about it, something like the born alive
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survivors protection act or the third term abortion that has been legalized and even glorified on the
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left. Of course, Christians feel called to say, okay, this, this is wrong. And we need to enact
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legislation to take care of the least of these. Um, tell me how that is different from someone from
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a woke Christian who would say, well, it's the same thing when I'm trying to push for social justice
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legislation. I don't think it's the same thing, but some people might argue that it is.
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Yeah. I don't think it's the same thing either. I think, uh, I think one of my most dogmatic
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arguments against this whole social justice movement is that scripture does not, uh, place
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adjectives in front of the word justice. When you read through scripture, there's either justice
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or there's injustice. When we obey God, there's justice. When we disobey God, there's injustice.
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So with regard to justice or, or I'll just use it for the sake of conversation, social justice,
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uh, and abortion, the answer is the same. Uh, if, if, if there's a scriptural basis for those things,
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and there is, we must, first of all, I don't like the word fight because the scripture doesn't tell us
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to fight for anything. It tells us to do justice. It tells us to not, it tells us to not kill the
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innocent, uh, including children through abortion. So scripture is clear on that. So with respect to
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what scripture says, uh, uh, about, uh, pursuing justice, pursuing legislation, um, I would say
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those things are secondary to sharing and preaching the gospel, which changes hearts so that they are
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inclined to number one, support candidates who support those biblical mandates. Um, the truth is,
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Allie, we have Christians out here right now who are voting for candidates who support the murder
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of unborn children. Um, not understanding what the Bible says about that. So, so their motive for
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going to the polls and voting is not a biblical or theological motive to begin with. It's more
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political, it's more social, it's more cultural. Um, so I think it's important for us to use biblical
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terminology when we're talking about justice and things of these nature, nowhere in scripture does
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it tell us to fight for justice. But to the extent that, that that phraseology is used, um, Christians
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are to line up behind candidates who are biblical in their worldview. And it's a biblical worldview that
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shapes within you a biblical political ideology. And we should vote for candidates whose lives align
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with that worldview. So would you say their personal lives align with that worldview? Cause that's also, you know,
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that's also hard for a lot of Christians on the Republican side, because there are certain Republican
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politicians who advocate for the policies that we believe in, but whose personal lives do not align with the
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Bible at all. Do you think that, so where, where do you think that are, let me rephrase that. How do you think
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Christians should approach that? You've got a candidate that, you know, isn't Christ-like, but he's going to
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fight for the things that you believe should be fought for, like pro-life legislation. How do you
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think Christians should approach that? Yeah, my, I can answer that question from a personal perspective.
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My personal ethos on that is that I would not support a candidate who aligned with every single
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political position I happen to hold, but his personal life is a wreck. If his personal life is fraught with sin,
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unrepentant sin, and there's, there's objective evidence to substantiate that, I really don't care what his
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political positions are, because his primary, if this is, if this is a professing Christian, his primary
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responsibility is to live his life personally as a testament to what Christ has done in his heart. Whatever he does
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politically is secondary to that. So if there's fruit in his life that denies his profession,
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it really doesn't matter to me what his political positions are at that point.
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Yeah, I think that can be very difficult. There seems to be a line between, okay, this person is a
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professing Christian and his life generally aligns with it, but there is that one thing over,
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over here that I'm not so sure is Christ-like. And then, because you do have people saying, well,
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okay, this guy over here, actually, I heard a Christian teacher say recently that they were
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talking about, uh, someone asked him about Trump and he said, you know, Trump is a very immoral person,
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but then someone asked him about Barack Obama and he said, great guy, great guy. Now this is a guy who
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is outspokenly pro-life. And so it's, I think it can be very difficult for Christians to find that
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balance. You know, do you have to pick and choose? Do you have to ever compromise? Is not voting an
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option? It's a hard thing to work through. Do you think so? Yeah. I don't, I don't think not voting is
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ever an option for a Christian. I don't think not, but I think you bring up a great point. Sometimes
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there's a line we have to, uh, we have to cross. Uh, but in crossing that line, however, we have to
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trust God again, that he is sovereign, uh, in, uh, because the scripture is clear, right? That those
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who, uh, rule over us in government are sovereignly appointed to those positions by God. Uh, and, and,
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and God is watching over everything that happens within the entirety of his universe. So in those
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situations, yeah, there can be certain times where we feel we have to compromise, but we have to do
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so trusting God to do that. And I think, I'm glad to hear you bring up, um, uh, Obama because it was,
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um, you know, I don't know the man personally, I've never met him, but it was through my, uh,
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biblical worldview that I chose not to support him. Um, to me, if the candidate does not hold to a
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biblical worldview, I cannot support that person. Um, each person must vote according to their own
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conscience, but for the Christian, there are clear scriptural guidelines and precepts that we should
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and must follow in deciding which candidates we support. And Barack Obama was absolutely one of
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the candidates where it was just overtly, uh, clear that no Christian, no genuine Christian should
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ever have supported this man. Okay. There's one more thing I want to talk to you about, but I don't
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want to ruin, I don't want to ruin this subject for listeners who need to go listen to your podcast
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from this week, but you did a podcast called the theology of socialism. And I would love to hear
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you talk about that a little bit. Like I said, I don't want to spoil it for everyone, but with AOC
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and the popularization of socialism, particularly among millennials and among millennial evangelicals,
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I, I have friends who have said, you know, the typical thing, Jesus was a socialist. Well,
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you and I know that's not true, but tell me, tell me why, uh, socialism is, um, unbiblical. If you would
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say that. Yeah. So, uh, socialism is basically just legalized theft and biblically speaking, everyone
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knows that stealing is wrong. Uh, the scripture is very, very clear, uh, with respect to the principle
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of private property, private ownership of property, hence the eighth commandment, thou shall not steal.
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So intrinsic with that commandment is the idea of private property. There are certain things that
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belong to you, Allie, that don't belong to me, uh, uh, or anyone else. Uh, so, uh, we, you know,
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you take, uh, Christ's interaction with the, uh, rich young ruler when the, uh, rich young ruler was,
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um, asked by Christ to, uh, sell off his, all of, all of his possessions and give to the poor. So even
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Christ acknowledged that the wealth that the ruler had was his wealth. Um, and even after the rich young
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ruler declined Jesus's invitation to come follow him, Jesus didn't force or coerce the ruler to go
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and sell his possessions. Uh, so yes, socialism is inherently unbiblical because it is legalized
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theft. And in the podcast episode that we did on the biblical theology of socialism, we took almost
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two hours to unpack reasons why that's the case. Yeah. And I think that that's a hard thing for people
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to hear because it's easy. It's easy to believe that socialism is the compassionate thing to do.
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One, because most millennials, younger millennials have no concept of money and taxes and redistribution.
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They're just kind of politically and financially ignorant, but you've got a lot of young people.
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I know that you've covered kind of the theological trends in this country. You've got a lot of young
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people that also don't know theology, so they don't know politics. They don't know theology,
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but what they do know is their feelings. And it feels really good to say, I'm willing to pay for
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someone else's health care. Of course, I'm willing to pay for someone else's college,
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or at least I want someone to pay for mine. That would be great. Um, I've all, I've always said
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that socialism and social justice allows millennials to feel virtuous without ever having to get off the
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couch. And I think that's why you have a lot of, you know, a lot of support around that ideology as
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well as around people like Bernie Sanders and AOC and even Beto O'Rourke. Um, because it feels good.
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Yeah. And you actually mentioned, uh, the contradiction that, uh, that is, is unavoidable
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with folks who, uh, subscribe to a socialist worldview. So for that, for that millennial who
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wants to feel virtuous without leaving the couch, you see, the Bible also talks much about the sin of
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laziness. So you can't have it both ways. You can't have the benefits of socialism without
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contributing to, uh, what makes socialism possible. And see that that's, that's, that's just such a
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contradiction within socialism is that you need capitalism in order to have socialism. But how,
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how do you get socialism without producers? If everyone were to take that attitude of that
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particular millennial and just say, hi, I'm just going to lay here on the couch. I mean, you start,
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everyone was starved to death. So somebody's got to work. Somebody's got to work and somebody's got
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to work for profit. Yeah. Somebody has to work for profit. If, if, if that's not the reality,
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then socialism just disappears, but it is inherently unbiblical. And the reason why I'm glad you mentioned
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this is because we don't know theology. We don't know what the Bible says about this, these things,
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which is why we took so long to exposit that subject within the framework of what the Bible does
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say about it. Yeah. I think everyone who is, has questions about this subject,
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confused about the subject should go to the just thinking podcast and listen to this episode.
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Maybe you have to take two commutes to listen to it since it's, uh, since you said it's two hours
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long, but I think that that is a good step that people can take. Also what I tell people whenever
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they say, how do I fight against this kind of like woke theology that sounds so good? I say,
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read your Bible, read your Bible and understand your Bible. That's really, I think what is missing in
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so much of this. Yeah, I would agree, Ellie. And that's all I do. That's all I do in my social
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media posts, my blog. That's all we do on the podcast. We open the word of God and we exposit
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what the word of God has to say about these subjects. And as I've often said, there's not
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a single subject that we face in our lives today that the Bible does not speak to. The Bible speaks
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to every single topic, everything, every single issue that the church encounters today, uh,
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is in there. If we just took the time to become better students, better theologians,
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better apologists, every person who professes the name of Christ is a theologian. Every person
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who professes to believe in Jesus Christ is an apologist. And we must be more disciplined,
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more diligent to spend time in the study of God's word so that we can be better defenders
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of his truths against these heretical, uh, worldviews that are going to come against us, such as woke
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theology, socialism. And you know, what's next around the corner is communism. That's going to
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be the next wave. Um, and the church is not immune to that. The only way we can be immune to that
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is to know what the word of God says about these issues.
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And unfortunately you have people who purport to know the word of God well, who are, if they're not
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all out supporting these kinds of socialistic, communistic ideas, they are at least, um,
00:25:14.280
they are warm to them and they're silent to them and they don't see how social justice
00:25:19.700
is actually connected to all of it. Um, so yeah, yeah. Yeah. And just on that note, uh,
00:25:27.080
Al, you know, one of my, when the whole, uh, social justice, uh, whenever I'm in a discussion
00:25:32.040
around social justice and someone who is a Christian is sort of dog mad, they bought into
00:25:36.580
the whole, uh, social justice movement. I like to bring up the encounter between Jesus and John the
00:25:42.140
Baptist where John the Baptist was unjustly in prison, right? So he's in prison unjustly.
00:25:47.940
And he sends a couple of his disciples to Jesus to ask him, listen, Jesus, I know I'm about to die.
00:25:54.360
I know my death is impending. I just need to ask you, are you really the one we've been expecting
00:25:59.400
or do we need to expect someone else? Well, Jesus sent his answer back to John and said, go back and
00:26:04.660
tell John what you have seen and what you've heard. You, you, you've seen the deaf here. You've
00:26:09.020
seen the blind, you've seen the blind see, you've seen the lame walk. But lastly of that list,
00:26:15.140
Jesus said, you've also seen that the poor had the gospel preached to them. Now, why do I bring
00:26:20.780
this up? Because even Jesus realized that you can heal the lame, you can heal the blind, you can
00:26:27.000
heal the deaf, you can feed the hungry, you can, uh, house the homeless. But ultimately what every
00:26:32.780
person needs more importantly than any of that is to hear the gospel because even the poor die.
00:26:38.720
And even eternity is awaiting the poor. So what's, what's, what Jesus was conveying to us is that
00:26:44.780
more important than anything in this temporal existence is your spiritual condition. Where's
00:26:51.940
your soul headed after you die? And, and even after responding to John, Jesus didn't free John. He
00:26:57.460
could have freed John from prison because he was there unjustly. No, he didn't. Jesus chose to allow
00:27:03.140
John to suffer the execution of death, being beheaded. Now the social justician must argue,
00:27:11.000
well, why didn't Jesus do that? Why didn't he free John? He was there unjustly. But that goes back to
00:27:16.340
my point earlier, God and his sovereignty uses even evil and unjust, uh, actions, laws, policies to bring
00:27:27.720
glory to himself. And our job is to obey God, regardless of the situation that we found ourselves
00:27:34.340
right. So to, to make sure that I have this clear for everyone, just in summary, as we kind of wrap
00:27:42.360
this up, uh, yes, it is good to believe in an advocate for policies, legislation that are actually
00:27:51.620
just not social justice, but actual justice. So that is the unborn, but our primary obligation is
00:28:00.480
always to preach the gospel, which changes hearts. It's not that we shouldn't care about legislation
00:28:05.680
at all, or shouldn't care about justice at all. It's that we know that the primary problem is a heart
00:28:11.240
problem is a sin problem, not a legislation problem. Correct. Exactly. That's the primary
00:28:17.780
problem. Listen, that's the root cause of every sin that we encounter. Listen, that's the root cause of
00:28:23.700
adultery and marriage. That's the root cause of child abuse. That's the root cause of in biblical
00:28:29.920
injustice. That is the root cause of every single thing that's wrong in this world. But again, we
00:28:36.080
should expect that in a world that is populated by sinners. And the only way to resolve that is for
00:28:42.500
folks' hearts to be transformed by the power of the gospel. And that is our primary job. And you're
00:28:49.120
doing a fantastic job, for example, through your podcast and getting the gospel out through this
00:28:54.500
means. People's hearts must change. And until then, we should expect what we continue to see happen in
00:29:01.000
our world each and every day, unfortunately. Amen. Well, can you tell everyone where they can find you
00:29:07.160
and anything you want them to know? Yeah. So the podcast, again, is Just Thinking. Whether you have
00:29:14.500
Android or iTunes, you can go out in your podcast app and search for Just Thinking. You can also
00:29:21.280
go to my blog at Just Thinking. That's one word, Just Thinking dot me. You can read my blog articles and
00:29:28.880
there's a link there that will connect you to the podcast as well. So there you go.
00:29:34.640
Perfect. Well, Daryl, thank you so much for taking the time. I know you're busy. You've got a lot going
00:29:39.560
on, but I appreciate everything you do. And I'm excited for my listeners who haven't heard of
00:29:44.000
the podcast quite yet. I'm sure there's a lot that already have, but any who haven't
00:29:47.840
to check you guys out because you guys are an awesome resource.
00:29:52.220
Allie, thanks so much. Stay strong. Congratulations on your pregnancy. I'm praying for you,
00:29:57.400
your husband. And thanks again for having me on today. It was my privilege, seriously.
00:30:01.540
Absolutely. He is so wise, knows his Bible so well. I could listen to him talk all day. There
00:30:07.820
were things that he said that I hadn't thought about or hadn't considered that I still kind of
00:30:12.560
have to think about myself and how I apply biblical theology to how I see politics and how I advocate
00:30:21.360
for policies and legislation. So this is stuff that I'm still learning that we're all kind of working
00:30:27.200
through together. And I appreciate you guys being on this journey with me. If you have any questions
00:30:32.100
about this particular episode or any suggestions about future podcast episodes, as always, feel
00:30:39.620
free to email me, ali at the conservative millennial blog.com. Message me on Instagram email. I'm more
00:30:45.540
likely to see it there. I've gotten a lot of great emails from you guys over this past week. I hope that
00:30:50.240
you have enjoyed the first week of Monday, Wednesday, Friday, relatable. Uh, remember Monday is going to
00:30:57.120
be a little bit different than it was this week. Instead of being exclusively news, we're going to
00:31:01.340
look at things from a biblical, uh, theological Christian perspective starting on a Monday. So
00:31:06.240
you can start fresh and inspired and motivated by the word of God. Um, and then Wednesday will be more
00:31:14.320
news. And then Friday, of course, will be another conversation. I think I'll bring my husband on the
00:31:18.120
podcast next week. Uh, okay. Love you guys. Hope that you have an awesome, wonderful, beautiful weekend.
00:31:24.460
Thank you for listening. Leave a review if you would like, and happy Friday.