Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 865 ｜ Hebrew Roots Movement & Its False Gospel ｜ Guests： Jeremiah Roberts & Andrew Soncrant of 'Cultish' (Part One)

00:00:00.260 The Hebrew Roots Movement is gaining popularity among Christians who reject the name of Jesus

00:00:06.320 for the Hebrew Yahweh or Yeshua, who reject holidays like Easter and Christmas for Jewish

00:00:12.520 feasts, and who largely abide by Levitical law.

00:00:16.680 But while many who follow these ideas are sincere in their beliefs, the movement as

00:00:21.600 a whole is contradictory to scripture and even has the tendency to diminish the saving

00:00:26.720 work of Christ and his gospel.

00:00:28.320 This is part one of a two-part conversation with the hosts of Cultish, Jeremiah Roberts

00:00:34.720 and Andrew Songkrant on the Hebrew Roots Movement.

00:00:38.940 And this episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:41.840 Go to GoodRanchers.com.

00:00:43.140 Use code ALI at checkout.

00:00:44.300 That's GoodRanchers.com.

00:00:45.440 Code ALI.

00:00:46.000 Jeremiah, Andrew, thanks so much for joining Relatable again.

00:00:59.940 Today, we are going to talk about the Hebrew Roots Movement.

00:01:06.120 So I'll just let y'all go.

00:01:07.480 Will one of you just kind of summarize in your words, what is the Hebrew Roots Movement and

00:01:12.880 how do we see it showing up within Christianity or professing Christianity?

00:01:19.260 Awesome.

00:01:19.820 Yeah, absolutely.

00:01:20.440 Thank you so much again, Ali, for having us on.

00:01:22.160 It's always a pleasure to talk to you and your audience here on Relatable.

00:01:25.860 The first thing I want to say is that when we even look at a movement like the Hebrew

00:01:29.860 Roots, it's many times when we look at different cultish movements that we kind of discuss and

00:01:34.720 explore on our podcast, when you look at something, for example, like UFOs or Scientology or some

00:01:41.820 Warren Jeffs, we tend to really think of it as something that's really out there that we

00:01:47.660 view from afar, that we view on a Netflix documentary.

00:01:50.840 However, when you look at something like the Hebrew Roots, it's something that is very much 0.98

00:01:55.680 in close proximity to really all of us.

00:01:59.000 More than likely, there are probably people in your audience who have had a friend or family

00:02:04.860 member start talking about adhering to the Hebrew Roots, talking about we need to observe

00:02:09.980 the feast or talk about being Torah observant.

00:02:12.960 In fact, my very first introduction to the Hebrew Roots was actually at my church.

00:02:17.780 My friend Gabe invited a very nice and sweet couple that came very nice.

00:02:24.240 I noticed that the husband was wearing this belt that had tassels attached that were sort

00:02:33.080 of hanging out.

00:02:34.060 It looked very odd and different in relation to just the regular clothes that he was wearing.

00:02:40.100 I felt kind of awkward.

00:02:41.100 It's one of those things where you see something and you don't really want to say anything.

00:02:44.180 So I pulled my friend Gabe aside and asked him, hey, what is going on?

00:02:49.400 What was he wearing?

00:02:50.780 And it turns out he is wearing something called a tassel belt, which is something in Jewish

00:02:55.400 tradition is based off of a verse in the Old Testament, which talks about adhering to

00:03:00.220 the law and also adhering to the corners of your garments.

00:03:04.020 So it was just something that it was an extension of what many people believe that there is a

00:03:10.120 resurgence where we want to adhere to Torah observance.

00:03:15.460 And so it kind of breaks down into many different categories.

00:03:18.260 I have some bullet points I'm going to pull up here in a second.

00:03:20.800 But Andrew, I'm going to have Andrew jump in here as well, too.

00:03:24.280 Andrew, we've done a couple episodes with our good friend Andrew Schumacher doing it.

00:03:29.360 How would you give a very broad overview just of their beliefs?

00:03:33.280 And then we're going to kind of talk about where it comes from, but also how it's the

00:03:38.680 challenges, because it's a very decentralized organization.

00:03:41.120 How would you describe that, Andrew?

00:03:43.180 Yeah, the Hebrew Roots movement is diverse.

00:03:45.360 There's no structured statement of faith or centralized leadership.

00:03:50.100 We can find a lot of teachings from the Hebrew Roots movement, particularly online or people

00:03:55.620 with Facebook groups.

00:03:56.620 There are some churches that do teach Hebrew Roots movement type of teachings because it's

00:04:02.800 typically when a pastor, sad to say, gets converted and then their church gets that way as well.

00:04:08.260 But again, there's no specific statement of faith for what they believe.

00:04:13.160 But there are some specific things that Jerry did mention, like Christians must observe the

00:04:19.260 feasts.

00:04:19.820 They must be obedient to the law and the Torah.

00:04:21.620 Uh, specifically, there's two different forms of theology, not forms, but two things that they

00:04:27.020 adhere to.

00:04:27.720 It's called one law theology and two house theology, uh, one law theology.

00:04:33.420 Uh, it's also known as one Torah theology, uh, but it's a theological perspective that emphasizes

00:04:39.040 the unity of God's law for both Jews and non-Jews who believe in Jesus as the Messiah.

00:04:43.840 Uh, it suggests that all believers, regardless of their ethnic background are called to observe 0.71

00:04:48.220 the entirety of Mosaic law as a way of life.

00:04:52.160 So that's the commandments.

00:04:53.280 Of course, as Christians, I would say we should obey the 10 commandments, right?

00:04:56.120 But I'm not perfect by any means, but I should still obey them, uh, feasts, but also even

00:05:00.580 some with dietary restrictions and other regulations.

00:05:03.220 But again, there's no centralized statement of faith.

00:05:05.500 So people may differ in this area.

00:05:07.240 And then there's something called two house theology, which people in the Hebrew, uh, Hebrew

00:05:11.640 Roots movement hold to, which is a restoration, uh, movement essentially of, uh, a lost

00:05:17.740 tribes of Israel, that there's scattered descendants.

00:05:21.020 This comes from the thoughts of, uh, you know, the diaspora, which occurred prior to the coming 0.89

00:05:25.400 of Christ when, uh, Israel and Judah were overthrown by foreign powers and the Jews were dispersed

00:05:31.740 throughout the nations.

00:05:33.420 Anyways, they believe, uh, that there's a specific role in end times restoration and things of that

00:05:39.520 nature for the house to come back together.

00:05:41.560 And part of that is through the observance of the Torah and the biblical feasts and things

00:05:45.800 of that nature.

00:05:47.740 But what's interesting is this movement actually prior to the Hebrew roots movement finds a

00:06:04.360 lot of its roots actually coming from, um, Armstrongism in the worldwide church of odd.

00:06:09.960 They have very similar, uh, familiarities between the two movements because the Armstrongism died

00:06:16.900 out after, uh, Herbert Armstrong died in 1986 and they kind of repented.

00:06:23.080 They had like a big repentance, uh, within Armstrongism where they started denouncing all

00:06:27.420 of these prior works, which were, you know, keeping the Sabbath on Saturday and the feasts.

00:06:32.520 And a lot of people were actually upset with that in some of the most early influential teachers,

00:06:37.740 the Hebrew roots movement actually came from, uh, the worldwide church of God, which is a very

00:06:41.940 interesting, uh, correlation there.

00:06:44.200 Hmm.

00:06:44.560 I hadn't heard of Armstrongism.

00:06:47.080 Oh yeah.

00:06:47.540 Yeah.

00:06:47.900 That's a big one.

00:06:48.700 So Herbert, Herbert Armstrong, it's, if you know, uh, we've mentioned a kingdom of the cults

00:06:53.040 by Dr. Walter Martin.

00:06:54.360 This is a definitive chapter in that a cult, a non-Christian cult, an anti-trinitarian cult that 0.75

00:07:00.340 Dr. Walter Martin dealt with, uh, during his ministry.

00:07:03.360 And one of the primary things is that, uh, Herbert Armstrong, he, like I said, he denied the Trinity.

00:07:09.060 Uh, he had some very interesting views, but again, he had what was called restoration,

00:07:13.380 a restorationist view and what that primarily means.

00:07:16.360 And it's something that, you know, we view different organizations.

00:07:20.180 We get messages all the time.

00:07:21.320 Hey, will you look at this group?

00:07:22.400 Will you look at that group?

00:07:23.540 The one commonality so many of these organizations have, whether it's an organization or just a

00:07:28.480 charismatic figure where they always say that, Hey, somehow along the line, the church lost its

00:07:35.820 message.

00:07:36.580 The true message has sort of gone away, has fallen away, but guess what?

00:07:40.620 I found the truth or we've discovered the truth and you can only find truth within our

00:07:45.440 organization.

00:07:45.840 So you must follow me because I've obtained special knowledge of what was truly lost.

00:07:51.480 And you do see this with, uh, the Hebrew roots movement, where they talk about how a lot of

00:07:56.600 the, uh, a lot of Christianity has sort of fallen away, has embraced, uh, Gentile pagan 1.00

00:08:02.440 ways has sort of lost its root, but this is somehow something that's new.

00:08:06.100 But in reality, uh, we believe there's nothing new under the sun.

00:08:09.860 And so when you look at something like the Hebrew roots, the one of the challenges is that

00:08:14.820 it's, it's decentralized right now.

00:08:17.600 When you talk about the Hebrew roots movement, there's not an official, uh, church headquarters,

00:08:21.600 you know, there's not an official, uh, watch our Bible and track society headquarters.

00:08:25.960 You can go to our official publications.

00:08:28.300 It's very decentralized.

00:08:29.700 So no matter what we try and do, even in this conversation to try and articulate their

00:08:34.760 beliefs, there are going to be groups and possibly even in your audience who adhere to

00:08:40.580 Hebrew roots, uh, theology or beliefs on some level.

00:08:43.320 And they'll say, well, you're not representing us properly.

00:08:45.960 Well, the, the problem is no matter who you do, for example, one of the major YouTube channels

00:08:50.920 out there is called 119 ministries, which you've read Psalm 119 and talks so much about

00:08:55.240 the adherence to the law about how much that, uh, Psalmist loves God's law.

00:08:59.820 But that is one example of a very large YouTube channel, but there's so many variations, depending

00:09:05.180 on who you talk to, you'll kind of get different interpretations of what sort of laws you should

00:09:10.520 adhere to.

00:09:11.440 Uh, but when you look at, uh, Herbert Armstrong and this is where a lot of people have real,

00:09:17.240 like, where's this all coming from?

00:09:18.580 Cause it seems to be something that's only kind of really exploded as of late in the last

00:09:22.660 decade or so.

00:09:23.520 And some of it just has to do with the internet influenza era where people can sort of become

00:09:28.300 their own sort of personality.

00:09:29.620 So what they did in private, they can now broadcast to tens of thousands of people.

00:09:33.620 But, um, just, just, uh, this is actually a, I'm going to read from a source here of one

00:09:37.560 of our research that we were doing, um, is that Herbert Armstrong, his teachings, they

00:09:42.060 hinged on the obligation to keep the Sabbath and the feasts and the festivals and kosher diet.

00:09:46.760 Uh, it was, uh, Israel is, it was British Israelism and anti-Trinitarianism and also, uh, Armstrong,

00:09:53.980 he was already, uh, teaching that to become a converted Christian, one must become spiritually

00:09:59.700 in Israelite.

00:10:00.980 And I'll read it just a couple more things and, and what you'll end up seeing as we unravel

00:10:06.040 this, maybe in the comment section, you see a striking similarity to the current beliefs

00:10:10.940 in regards to what, uh, Herbert Armstrong, uh, believed.

00:10:14.280 In fact, uh, this is somebody named, there's a man by the name of Joseph Track, who was

00:10:17.800 very involved in the worldwide church of God.

00:10:20.480 And he states, for those of us who are in the worldwide church of God, it was a central,

00:10:25.720 it was a central plank of our theology.

00:10:28.060 We believe that we were a faithful remnant of the people of God.

00:10:31.040 We believe that we were the true Israel.

00:10:33.160 We observed the Sabbath and the feasts for a very good reason.

00:10:36.800 We were biological descendants of Abraham.

00:10:39.160 We were not Gentiles.

00:10:40.300 This doctrine formed on the basis for how we lived each day and for our view of the world

00:10:45.700 and its future in prophecy.

00:10:47.900 And so what you'll see, you see these tenants where people need to believe they need to,

00:10:51.760 they need to follow the Torah.

00:10:53.100 But one of the main emphasis that you'll see, uh, the one that kind of sticks out specifically

00:10:58.040 is that we need to observe the feasts that are mentioned in the old Testament.

00:11:02.960 These are something that still have to be observed today.

00:11:06.260 And so what you'll end up seeing, and Allie, if you have questions, we'll definitely jump

00:11:09.940 in there.

00:11:10.440 But, uh, when we did the episodes on Halloween, uh, you saw a lot of people starting, even

00:11:15.580 in your comment section, even in our social media, we didn't even talk about Hebrew roots

00:11:20.200 when we were discussing the historical origins of Halloween.

00:11:22.580 Yet, though people who adhere to that, they were jumping in the comment sections.

00:11:27.600 Well, no, this is pagan.

00:11:28.780 We need to observe the feast.

00:11:31.020 And so that's what you see a lot of times.

00:11:32.960 You'll make a resurgence around Easter, around Christmas, around Halloween.

00:11:37.440 In fact, we did a recent episode, uh, with our good friend, uh, Michael Jones from the

00:11:41.500 YouTube channel, Inspiring Philosophy, who has some great content debugging, uh, pagan holiday

00:11:45.700 myths.

00:11:46.620 And we were talking primarily just about, Hey, we should try and have integrity when we do

00:11:52.260 history and seek to tell the truth as Christians.

00:11:54.920 And then you had a bunch of people who just jumped on very passionately.

00:11:58.520 I'm sure they're very sweet person.

00:11:59.920 If I met up, if I met up with them, I'd love to say hi and have a conversation with

00:12:03.080 them, but they were very passionate and adamant that this is some, the feasts are something

00:12:09.620 that are pagan and I'm sorry, not the feasts, but the holidays, these holidays are something

00:12:13.600 that are pagan, but the only authorized holidays that we can celebrate are these specific holidays

00:12:18.720 listed, uh, in the old Testament.

00:12:21.600 In fact, um, one other thing that I'll just, uh, state here, and this is a quote from Herbert

00:12:26.600 Armstrong, uh, and he states, he says, there's no, there, there is a significant amount of

00:12:31.260 open criticism of these Christian holidays in the literature of the worldwide church

00:12:34.640 of God.

00:12:35.060 And this is the quote he said, and Herbert Armstrong is saying now that now we know the

00:12:39.860 pagan origin of the Easter celebration, let's clear away the web of error that covers the

00:12:45.120 truth about keeping the Passover, the memorial of Christ's sake, or take, for instance, the

00:12:50.500 other, uh, most people today do not take the command of the Lord lightly or have, or how

00:12:55.980 the, or have no validity whatsoever and following the tradition of men in observing Christmas.

00:13:00.940 So when you look at someone like Herbert Armstrong, uh, in the worldwide church of God, he's someone,

00:13:05.740 he's someone who really articulated this theology.

00:13:07.940 And what's very interesting if you follow the history and we have an episode on the worldwide

00:13:11.740 church of God, you can check out in our podcast, but, um, it started to really sort of

00:13:15.760 disseminate and dismantle in the 1990s.

00:13:18.740 And that's almost exactly a part and parcel, which a lot of people who've examined this

00:13:23.060 movement, that's when you start to kind of see all this fragmentation from all different

00:13:27.200 areas, different spheres of these sort of observance to, uh, these, uh, specific aspects,

00:13:34.420 selective aspects, we believe of the Torah.

00:13:45.760 What are your thoughts so far, Allie?

00:13:50.340 What questions do you have regarding this movement?

00:13:52.020 Yeah, I'm thinking for people who are like, you know, I don't know anyone who believes this

00:13:56.140 stuff.

00:13:56.620 I know that I have seen it on my own Instagram with the messages and comments that I have

00:14:01.540 received.

00:14:01.880 So just so people can kind of understand what we're talking about and things that they've

00:14:06.800 seen, but maybe didn't know to link it to a whole movement like the Hebrew roots movement.

00:14:11.380 And again, as you said, uh, Jeremiah, this isn't necessarily indicative of every representative

00:14:17.460 of everyone who is in this Hebrew roots, but what I see a lot is they refuse to say Jesus

00:14:23.360 because they say that's Roman.

00:14:24.860 So they will say Yeshua, and then they will say, yes, we do need to abide by the old Testament

00:14:30.640 laws because if we follow Jesus, Jesus abided by the old Testament laws.

00:14:34.000 If it's good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me.

00:14:35.840 And, um, also the same thing with not celebrating Christmas, not celebrating Easter, because these

00:14:42.920 are pagan holidays.

00:14:43.840 They might even say the name of Jesus itself is pagan and that Christianity has been paganized.

00:14:50.060 Um, and so we need to go back to the roots.

00:14:53.400 Actually, some would argue to be more like Jesus and we're emulating his life by following

00:15:01.060 the law to the letter.

00:15:02.540 Now, if I bring up and I have before, and this was even before I knew that this was kind

00:15:07.980 of a collective thing.

00:15:09.280 When you bring up Galatians about not being tethered to the law anymore.

00:15:13.580 And if you try to uphold one part of the law, then you've got to uphold the whole part of

00:15:17.720 the law, but Jesus actually fulfilled the law.

00:15:19.920 They claim that it's, that's not what Galatians means, that it's not talking about that.

00:15:26.000 I'm not really sure exactly what the argument is, but that might kind of help people understand

00:15:30.760 what we're talking about.

00:15:32.320 Very often it's the use of Yeshua.

00:15:34.020 Very often it is saying basically that everything that Christianity has kind of come up with when

00:15:40.840 it comes to traditions and who Jesus was has kind of been paganized and modernized over

00:15:45.660 time.

00:15:46.700 And they see it as a form of like reformation going back to the Old Testament law.

00:15:51.980 Yeah, no, that's, that's really good.

00:15:54.840 In fact, so one of the challenges even with this as well, too, is that it's so, it's so

00:16:00.540 broad that there's no way, even if we went three hours, we could encompass every nuance.

00:16:07.060 And again, every single group will, will always, there's always, there's so many different

00:16:11.140 variants of people who disagree with each other with what gets applied, but I'll just start

00:16:16.800 off in bite-sized pieces.

00:16:18.240 So there's another movement on top of the Worldwide Church of God that started in the

00:16:22.200 1930s.

00:16:23.740 And this is something known as the Sacred Name Movement.

00:16:26.660 And primarily, this was a movement that taught that there's only certain ways you can address

00:16:32.380 God, not only in regards to name, but in pronunciation.

00:16:37.500 And if, and almost, in some, in some cases, it was almost extreme to an extent that if you

00:16:43.180 pronounced the name of God wrong, then you could lose your salvation.

00:16:48.620 And it's something that's just very interesting, because I mean, I, as a Christian, you know,

00:16:52.720 I've been on world mission trips, and one of the coolest things to be able to see, whether

00:16:57.880 it's, whether it's in a, in a Muslim country, or in somewhere in Mexico, or really any culture,

00:17:04.200 when you see them, the translation of their specific Bible, and when you see them worshiping

00:17:09.180 in their specific language, it's so amazing to see.

00:17:13.880 In fact, and there's, so there's, just so you know, too, there's nothing wrong or taboo

00:17:18.160 of referring to Jesus as Yeshua, for example.

00:17:20.860 Yes, I'm glad you said that.

00:17:21.540 Like, in fact, one of my favorite things, too, are seeing people, you know, testimonies

00:17:26.960 of people who are Jewish, who come to find out that Jesus is the Messiah.

00:17:31.180 In fact, we did an episode with our good friend, Dr. Michael Brown, who is Jewish.

00:17:35.100 He is a Jewish, he is an apologist, he has done the most debates with rabbis, whether

00:17:40.360 or not Jesus is the Messiah, and it's, it's, it's just, it's always very awesome to see.

00:17:45.960 But what's interesting is that, what I've seen is that they try and take something that

00:17:51.520 honestly isn't a bad thing, but then they try and make it this very legalistic, very tribalistic

00:17:57.560 have and have not.

00:17:58.600 It's like, you need to pronounce it this way.

00:18:00.660 And you've seen, I even started seeing on my social media a couple of years ago, where

00:18:05.220 people would start saying, like, praise the Lord, and they would take out the vows.

00:18:10.020 Now, this is something that you would see in earlier traditions where people, when they

00:18:15.000 would translate, they have this sort of sacredness for the name of God.

00:18:17.540 But as far as us as Christians, I guess if you felt in your own personal conscience, this

00:18:24.200 is something I should maybe do.

00:18:26.740 Okay, I'll, I'll give you that.

00:18:28.320 I'll throw you a bone there. 1.00

00:18:29.380 But what's concerning about this movement, I also just want to say too, that the, for

00:18:34.240 the majority of people that you're dealing with, you're probably dealing with your friends,

00:18:37.760 someone who genuinely loves the Lord, but in many cases are in error.

00:18:43.060 And it's, and, and, and also you think about too, even the climate today, where you see a

00:18:49.000 lot of churches just preaching very wishy, washy, practical sermons, but there's no deep

00:18:54.340 theology being taught.

00:18:55.740 And a lot of times the Old Testament is ignored.

00:18:58.340 And so there's this vacuum where people are genuinely curious.

00:19:01.380 And then you have somebody like Andy, Andy, Stan, Andrew Stanley, who's saying that we need

00:19:06.020 to detach from the Old Testament.

00:19:08.240 And all of a sudden there's hunger to go back there.

00:19:10.560 But what you see, and it's the case with everything that you think of like purity culture

00:19:14.480 and the conversations we've had with Ginger Duggar.

00:19:17.040 And now people are pendulum swing from purity culture all the way into radical LGBTQ plus 0.96

00:19:22.980 as a response to that.

00:19:24.260 So that's an overcorrection.

00:19:25.440 So almost in the same way where you look at a lot of just sort of wishy-washy theology

00:19:29.960 the church has, the church does have their responsibility in some sense for this movement.

00:19:33.760 It's filled with a vacuum, it's a pendulum swing, and it's an overcorrection.

00:19:38.520 Andrew, what thought, what other things could you talk about the sacred name movement and

00:19:42.840 some of the errors and concerns we would have concerning that movement?

00:19:47.080 Yeah, absolutely.

00:19:47.860 In relation to Hebrew roots.

00:19:48.380 Yeah, yeah.

00:19:49.800 Sacred name movement in relation to Hebrew roots.

00:19:52.240 I think there's a biblical precedence for this that's shown to us in the book of Acts.

00:19:57.560 We can go to Acts chapter 19 with the sons of Sceva when Paul is in Ephesus and he's performing

00:20:03.220 miracles and he's casting out demons in the name of Jesus, right?

00:20:07.560 Or let's say Yeshua, if I'm even pronouncing that correctly.

00:20:11.780 But what happens is, is there's these sons of Sceva who are essentially Jewish exorcists. 0.89

00:20:16.880 And what they do is they travel around performing exorcisms or incantations.

00:20:21.700 Josephus actually notes in his Jewish antiquities, he says, there's people who invoked even Solomon's

00:20:26.400 name in expelling demons.

00:20:27.560 So this form of Jewish mysticism was going around during this time.

00:20:31.320 And they saw that Paul was casting out demons in the name of Jesus and performing miracles.

00:20:36.240 And so what did they try to do?

00:20:37.560 They followed him into Ephesus and they tried to do the same thing.

00:20:40.820 They saw these demons and they tried to invoke the name of Jesus.

00:20:43.520 And if someone can actually speak Hebrew very well, it would probably be people that are 1.00

00:20:47.480 Jewish in descent, if the sons of Sceva even were.

00:20:51.360 But what actually shows happening in Acts chapter 19 is they were overpowered by the demons.

00:20:56.640 They said the name, right?

00:20:58.200 But that had no power in it. 0.51

00:20:59.840 They actually were driven out, butt naked, derobed. 0.80

00:21:03.160 These, quoting, priests were derobed by the demons and overpowered.

00:21:07.640 They said, I know, I know Jesus.

00:21:08.940 I know Paul, but I don't know you, right?

00:21:11.340 So in terms of the sacred name movement, does the name really have power?

00:21:15.260 Is that what we're being shown in Acts chapter 19?

00:21:18.000 No, it's the fact that Paul, through apostolic authority, as a messenger on behalf of Jesus,

00:21:22.760 had a spiritual authority given to him to cast out the demons through the name of Jesus.

00:21:27.460 It's not the actual name that had power, but it's the Holy Spirit that was working in

00:21:32.520 throughout with him, you know?

00:21:35.260 And so in terms of a sacred name movement, of course, there's things that you may find

00:21:40.060 important, but really ask yourself, are you, do you really think you're saying it correctly?

00:21:44.420 By what, other than the grace of God, do we know I am that I am, right?

00:21:50.260 God had to graciously give that to us as a form to even grasp the concept of the eternal God.

00:21:56.300 Is that, does that name in itself actually capture the eternality of God and his omnipotence,

00:22:01.620 omnipresence and omniscience?

00:22:02.700 No, no, it doesn't.

00:22:05.040 So it's something that if we've got to think logically, consistently, and actually go back

00:22:09.820 to the Bible to see if we see a precedence of these things occurring within time and in

00:22:14.120 early church history in Acts chapter 19, we see the very same thing and the Bible demonstrates

00:22:17.960 it wasn't the name, it was the power of the Holy Spirit and the gifting that Paul had.

00:22:21.820 And that's important too.

00:22:23.120 So I think in terms of even thinking biblically about feasts or keeping the Sabbath, like we got 0.92

00:22:30.260 to understand it's important to us as Christians to want to obey God in his commands.

00:22:34.740 And that's where we can fall into some certain traps, right?

00:22:37.320 Because someone can come along and say, well, you worship on Sunday.

00:22:40.640 That's not on Sabbath.

00:22:42.180 If you really want to be worshiping God correctly, you must worship on Saturday.

00:22:46.460 And you're going to go, wow, you know, I love God.

00:22:49.420 I want to worship God in spirit and in truth.

00:22:51.760 You know, I really want to worship him the right way.

00:22:53.600 So you start falling into some of these teachings by certain aspects within our being that want

00:23:01.600 to worship God the correct way.

00:23:03.980 Uh, but when we do that, uh, we start, you know, throwing out some historical precedents

00:23:10.400 we have through the, through the Bible.

00:23:11.780 I mean, Hebrews chapter four, you can go in and read it on how Jesus is our Sabbath rest,

00:23:16.020 right?

00:23:16.300 And there's other scriptures that say that there was worship on the Lord's day, the resurrection

00:23:20.080 on the set on a Sunday that was occurring.

00:23:22.260 I mean, we have rest, perfect rest fulfilled in Jesus.

00:23:24.980 And we can think about the feasts in the same way.

00:23:28.680 Jesus, he's such an awesome guy.

00:23:30.640 Go read the book of John, go read John eight through 10.

00:23:33.120 And we have Jesus standing up during these feasts, proclaiming, uh, I am the living water

00:23:40.160 in front of everybody.

00:23:41.620 Right.

00:23:42.180 And then he says, I am the light of the world during, uh, the feast.

00:23:45.720 I think it is a boost in John chapter eight, referring to that, this, that these feasts were

00:23:51.700 a shadow of the Messiah who was to come.

00:23:54.520 And Jesus says, I am here.

00:23:56.240 Look to me.

00:23:57.100 Don't look to the feast.

00:23:58.580 Look to me.

00:23:59.340 He stands up in front of everyone and says it.

00:24:00.920 And then the question you got to ask yourself too, is can you actually celebrate the feasts

00:24:05.260 like they did back then?

00:24:06.980 And this is what I mean by it.

00:24:08.220 Those feasts required sacrifices.

00:24:11.000 They did.

00:24:11.780 And God says you must sacrifice in specific locations.

00:24:14.700 Can you do that?

00:24:16.140 Can you do that?

00:24:17.580 No.

00:24:18.000 Can you sacrifice where God said that they were to perform these sacrifices?

00:24:22.460 No.

00:24:22.760 And then the other question you got to ask yourself is, is can you only celebrate the

00:24:26.020 Levitical holidays?

00:24:27.160 Is that what it is?

00:24:28.080 Can you not celebrate anything outside the Levitical holidays?

00:24:30.480 Well, there's holidays Jesus celebrated that are in the Bible.

00:24:34.040 John chapter 10.

00:24:34.900 He was there during Hanukkah.

00:24:36.840 That's not a Levitical holiday.

00:24:38.220 Jesus celebrated it.

00:24:39.860 Right.

00:24:40.100 So we got to we got to think consistently.

00:24:43.220 We got to use all of scripture when we're making some convictions before we try to place

00:24:48.500 those convictions on others.

00:24:49.480 I'd say if you want to go ahead and say Jesus fulfilled the feasts of booths.

00:24:54.160 So I'm going to celebrate it my own way with my family in the backyard pointing to Christ.

00:24:58.460 That's fine.

00:24:59.300 Go ahead.

00:24:59.720 You have the freedom in Christ to do those things.

00:25:01.480 But the line gets drawn when you look at somebody else and you say to them, you must do X, Y and

00:25:09.400 Z.

00:25:09.900 And if that's the case, right, Galatians, you brought it up earlier, Ali.

00:25:13.600 It says those who seek to be justified by the law, the grace of Christ has no effect on

00:25:18.740 you.

00:25:19.420 We really we really have to be careful when we're starting to create manmade traditions

00:25:24.240 that Paul warns about in Colossians chapter two, because they have an appearance of promoting

00:25:29.300 self-made religion, but they're of no value in stopping indulgence of the flesh.

00:25:32.480 So that's so it's still stuff.

00:25:46.760 And I'll just say one other thing regarding the feast is that we I think the feasts are

00:25:51.160 a beautiful thing.

00:25:52.300 Like one of my favorite experiences, if I can recollect, I was at a church event at a church

00:25:58.200 I used to attend, and there was a man by the name of Neil Pitchell, who is Jewish, and

00:26:03.380 it was right around Easter.

00:26:05.180 And what he did is he had us all participate in a Passover Seder dinner.

00:26:09.820 He did the very strict traditional Jewish way.

00:26:13.400 But then he kind of broke it down line by line, really item by item with how the whole feast

00:26:18.260 works and how people back during that time were really looking forward to the Messiah

00:26:24.420 that was to come.

00:26:25.440 And in it, he's telling his testimony.

00:26:27.260 And so for me, like in that experience, like I walked away with such a deeper appreciation

00:26:32.940 for what I have as somebody who's non-Jewish, really experiencing in the blessings of the

00:26:39.040 covenant, even the church that we attend.

00:26:41.720 There's such a broad variety of different backgrounds, ethnicities.

00:26:46.160 You know, you think about even some of the woke churches where they try and just like,

00:26:49.720 hey, we need to have this race or over another. 0.69

00:26:51.500 When you see the broad variety of cultures and backgrounds who now are reveling in the

00:26:58.320 blessings of this Jewish Messiah, it's amazing to see that the area of error of where this 0.66

00:27:05.280 comes from, speaking very broadly, is that when you start utilizing the feast that you have

00:27:09.680 to celebrate this as in a have and have nots, then you have an issue of concern because now

00:27:17.180 all of a sudden you're creating some divisions, you're creating tribalism.

00:27:21.540 And so it's not just something you have an appreciation for that makes you get a better

00:27:25.440 understanding, appreciation for Christ and what he did.

00:27:28.120 Now this becomes part of your tribal identity.

00:27:30.860 And you start to look down and shun upon others who don't see the same.

00:27:34.760 And there's a lot of very different, and it's very similar almost in a sense to a lot

00:27:38.340 of the sort of nuanced debates sometimes within the Twitterverse and on Christendom, for example,

00:27:43.780 like head coverings, right?

00:27:45.460 So that's something that I've noticed a lot of has taken a conversation as of late.

00:27:51.280 And even in the church I attend, I've noticed there's been a couple of women who are like, 1.00

00:27:55.620 oh, there's someone wearing a head covering.

00:27:57.200 Okay.

00:27:57.600 Okay.

00:27:58.220 That's interesting.

00:27:59.020 And it would be in a situation where, okay, well, if that's how you genuinely feel, if

00:28:03.820 you genuinely feel convicted about how this, you should present yourself in worship, then

00:28:09.100 great.

00:28:09.780 I'm not going to, I don't have a bone to pick with you.

00:28:13.100 I think where the difference is when you start making a have and have nots, and say you start

00:28:17.520 looking down upon and shunning those who don't have head coverings, that's where we would 0.99

00:28:23.020 take issue.

00:28:24.240 But it would be very similar with Hebrew roots.

00:28:27.200 And again, there may be different variations of Hebrew roots would also differ on women 1.00

00:28:32.480 and head coverings, but that's another small aspect of it.

00:28:36.320 Have you found in what you do know about the movement that salvation for those who follow

00:28:43.860 this is tied up in keeping the feasts and keeping the law, that it's actually, you know,

00:28:51.840 going to heaven, being saved is dependent upon keeping Levitical law as much as possible.

00:29:00.940 Yeah.

00:29:01.820 I think one way to think.

00:29:03.260 Go ahead, Andrew.

00:29:04.180 Yeah.

00:29:04.420 I think one way to think about it, since it is such a diverse movement, there are people

00:29:07.440 who adhere to some forms of Hebrew roots movement teachings, but they do believe that the grace

00:29:11.700 of Christ is what saves them.

00:29:14.060 But there are different parts of the group that are also anti-Trinitarian, they're anti-Trinitarian.

00:29:19.300 And there's also ones where it's like, well, Jesus says also, if you love me, you'll obey

00:29:24.140 my commands.

00:29:25.120 Right.

00:29:25.540 So if you're not obeying Christ's commands and you're not ignorant to the fact that these

00:29:30.180 feasts are mandatory and you're willing, willfully disobeying according to them, then salvation

00:29:35.740 would be dependent upon that.

00:29:37.140 But again, not all of them hold to these forms of teachings, but it is something that is definitely

00:29:41.920 out there and you need to be worried about.

00:29:44.940 I mean, we're told about it.

00:29:46.460 Second Corinthians 11 verse four, different Jesus, different gospel, different spirit.

00:29:49.960 So if we start messing with the gospel, Jesus is going to get toyed with, right?

00:29:54.080 All of these things are going to start changing.

00:29:56.420 And the rabbit hole is, is not seeing the perfect fulfillment of Old Testament typology in

00:30:04.760 Jesus Christ, in Jesus Christ.

00:30:07.740 He fulfilled those things.

00:30:10.040 The feasts, the sacrifice from the Old Testament, they were looking forward to the promise who

00:30:15.220 was to come.

00:30:15.920 And if you start blurring the lines on those things, you can fall into a trap.

00:30:21.120 And by God's grace, I hope it doesn't happen to anybody.

00:30:24.760 But then you'll go running back to the feasts to justify.

00:30:27.860 You read the book of Hebrews.

00:30:29.680 It's all throughout Hebrews.

00:30:31.180 The author of Hebrews keeps saying to them, look, today is the day of salvation.

00:30:35.060 Don't be like the Israelites who hardened their hearts in the wilderness and turned back.

00:30:38.520 He says, you have heard the gospel.

00:30:39.700 Don't turn back to Judaism. 0.98

00:30:41.740 Yeah.

00:30:41.980 Stay strong because Jerusalem is going to be destroyed. 0.88

00:30:44.720 It's in the book of Hebrews.

00:30:46.180 Really read that.

00:30:46.920 Pray about that.

00:30:47.620 Yeah.

00:30:48.360 Yeah.

00:30:48.840 I would say, I would say also just to capitalize on what Andrew is saying is that for the

00:30:54.220 majority, I believe, of our friends in the Hebrew roots movement is that the majority

00:30:58.500 of them, I would say, are born again, they love Jesus, they love the Lord, and they want

00:31:02.740 to be pleasing in his sight.

00:31:04.640 But because of their misunderstanding of the difference between the law and the gospel,

00:31:09.620 they're putting on themselves a yoke and a burden that's unnecessary.

00:31:14.340 However, it is some of a nuanced bag of wolves and sheep in the sense that one of the primary

00:31:19.720 views of underlying within the majority of Hebrew roots practitioners is that you need

00:31:25.940 to adhere to, on some level, the Torah or Jewishness, depending on how you interpret

00:31:31.180 it.

00:31:31.640 But the more Gentile that you get, that's where you start deviating into paganism. 1.00

00:31:37.800 And so what you end up seeing is that throughout the majority of church history, the majority

00:31:41.700 of church fathers are non-Jewish.

00:31:43.920 It just happens to be the people that God raised up.

00:31:46.260 So when you look it up, for example, Herbert Armstrong, one of the things that he, his

00:31:50.700 arguments against the Trinity was against St. Athanasius, who in the first century, he,

00:31:55.860 if you read the book on the Incarnation, or even the statement of Athanasius Contramundum,

00:32:00.100 he was the only church father who was standing up really against all these heresies, against

00:32:05.360 Arianism.

00:32:06.820 But Herbert Armstrong's primary argument is that he was Gentile.

00:32:11.080 And so therefore, just because of that nature of him being non-Jewish, well, he was adopted 0.98

00:32:16.240 being pagan ideals, and he kind of wrapped it into the Trinity.

00:32:19.260 And you see the same thing with Jehovah's Witnesses, for example. 0.66

00:32:22.900 They make the same argument of the Trinity being pagan, invented at the Council of Nicaea.

00:32:27.440 So if you start adopting a worldview that says that the more Gentile you get, the more you 0.98

00:32:33.860 are to adopting being pagan, then you start to question everything.

00:32:37.660 And the reality is, when you look at the whole central point of church history, and again,

00:32:41.960 there's people who are probably way more knowledgeable than Andrew and I, when it comes to church

00:32:45.860 history, the primary thing the creeds have done is that they've really have protected

00:32:49.600 the doctrinal integrity of the essentials of the faith, namely the Trinity and salvation

00:32:54.580 by grace through faith alone, and most importantly, the deity of Jesus.

00:32:58.300 But when you start going down this rabbit trail in many different ways, and you start taking

00:33:03.540 it, for some people, they follow this, the logical conclusion is to completely derail and

00:33:08.500 almost deconstruct, in a sense, where you then deny the Trinity, the deity of Jesus, and

00:33:15.320 then your whole identity is literally, the Torah almost becomes your Lord and Savior.

00:33:21.160 And Jesus is just a means to follow, the identity is Torah observed, it's not necessarily your 0.50

00:33:25.400 identity in Christ.

00:33:38.640 All right, guys, that was part one of our two-part conversation.

00:33:42.840 Make sure that you tune in tomorrow for part two.

00:33:45.880 We will be diving into this even more, comparing it to what scripture actually says, and then

00:33:51.440 also just looking at different reactions that Christians tend to have toward culture that

00:33:56.140 aren't necessarily biblical.

00:33:58.940 All right, thanks so much for listening.

00:34:00.600 We will be back here tomorrow.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - August 30, 2023

Ep 865 ｜ Hebrew Roots Movement & Its False Gospel ｜ Guests： Jeremiah Roberts & Andrew Soncrant of 'Cultish' (Part One)

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