Ep 867 ｜ Should We Baptize Babies？ ｜ Q&A
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Summary
In this episode of Relatable, we're talking about navigating political disagreements in marriage and how to deal with church hurt, trauma, and church hurt in marriage. How do you deal with political disagreements? What do you do when you disagree with your spouse on abortion, gender roles, and more?
Transcript
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Also, why is it okay to make fun of celebrities in Hollywood?
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We've got all of this and more on this episode of Relatable,
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which is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
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Hope everyone's having a wonderful week so far.
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I'm going to answer some of the questions that you guys have.
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First question is, how do I navigate political disagreements in marriage?
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I think that this would be really, really hard.
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I'm sure that there are a lot of couples who have this.
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you probably have it with someone in your family, with in-laws.
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I will say my husband and I are very fortunate that his family and my family,
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Maybe we've got like a rogue person somewhere out there who likes Joe Biden,
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but we're all totally on the same page, at least on the big stuff.
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And so, and I'm sure that my husband and I might have some disagreements on some things,
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but on the big things that really matter, we are in total alignment.
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And I think that is, that kind of answers the question mostly is that,
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okay, on the big things, I'm talking about the things that are explicitly in the Bible,
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when it comes to gender, when it comes to marriage and family raising.
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And when it comes to, when it comes to like what justice actually is versus social justice,
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progressive racial justice, I also think that the Bible is very clear on this, on abortion.
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Like on these big issues, because they are explicitly biblical,
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I'm not saying that there can be no disagreement whatsoever in what the policies should look like,
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but do you agree on what God's word says about them?
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Those are the things that I would work out, that I would work out maybe through thoughtful
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and considerate and careful, respectful conversation.
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Now, I would try to have these conversations at a time where you're not already in an argument,
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when you're not mad at each other, and when emotions are not high.
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I would do your very best to keep emotions out of it.
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Now, if you do disagree on these big things like abortion,
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if they think, you know, abortion's not that big of a deal,
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I think it should be fine through X, you know, time in pregnancy.
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And obviously, because of your biblical convictions, you don't believe that.
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Look, that could be, it could be a few things for your spouse.
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It could be that they just haven't thought about it.
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It could be that they don't understand what God's word says about the sacredness of life inside the womb,
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and that they actually need to be taught those things.
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I think you can encourage your husband in that.
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I think that if he's willing to have a conversation about what the Bible says about those things,
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If every time you bring it up, it becomes like this sore spot, this spot of contention,
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and like things get really weird, and it's just like driving you apart,
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It could be something that you talk about with like close friends, maybe mentors.
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Maybe if you have like a really godly friend who has a really godly husband,
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who has friends with your husband, if he could kind of have the conversation with him.
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Now, when it comes to the not so explicitly biblical, the not so fundamental foundational things,
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like maybe you disagree on some forms of economic policy or some forms of health care policy or things like that.
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I mean, eventually all of these things kind of end up going back to the fundamentals.
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It depends on your belief in the relationship between government and God, government and the church.
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All of that kind of ends up being very basic and foundational.
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But a lot of these things are complicated and gray and nuanced and aren't necessarily indicative of someone's sanctification or justification.
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On those things, like if you can have a spirited conversation about them and ask curious questions,
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That could be a good way to like allow you guys to think through things.
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If he's willing to read some of the things that you have read that convinced you of your position,
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and maybe if you're willing to read some of the things that he's read or listened to that convinced him of his position,
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If, again, he shuts down every time you talk about this kind of thing,
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But that's probably something more to like pray through and to let go.
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The most important thing is that you agree on the gospel, you agree on the authority of God's word,
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you agree on the fundamental explicitly biblical things,
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and then the other things will be worked out over time.
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Some things are just not worth ever debating and like disagreeing on if it causes a lot of emotion and a lot of dissent between you two.
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But unity in marriage under the banner of truth is really, really important.
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I don't know if that's the most practical advice,
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but that's kind of what I think at least about the principles of these kinds of disagreements in marriage.
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What does the Bible say about loaning people money?
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If you look back at God's law giving to Israel, Exodus 22, 25,
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if you lend money to any of my people with you who is poor,
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you shall not be like a money lender to him and you shall not exact interest from him.
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It's good and just and truthful to pay someone back when you've been loaned money.
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But God is against this exacting of interest from someone.
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He sees it, I think, as a form of oppression and manipulation when it comes to these kinds of transactions.
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Now, obviously, we're not under the law of ancient Israel,
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but I think that the principle stands that if you lend money out to a poor person,
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especially if or if you lend money out to a friend who is in need,
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just asking them to pay you back and, yes, expecting them to pay you back.
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I think that's fine without exacting interest so that they are totally oppressed under the debt that they pay you.
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I think that principle still stands today that doing that,
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that oppressing them in that way would be wrong.
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Like a Deuteronomy 23, 19, you shall not charge interest on loans to your brother,
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interest on money, interest on food, interest on anything that is lent for interest.
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Deuteronomy 23, 20, you may charge a foreigner interest,
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The Lord, your God may bless you and all that you undertake in the land
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that you are entering to take possession of it.
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Now, we would have to go into that chapter and look at all the context to really like
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exegete and understand exactly what is meant by that.
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I mean, that's something that opposes a lot of like what the progressives say about who God is
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and how he would never create any kind of delineation between like one nation and another nation.
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for foreigners in the Old Testament than there were for the people of Israel,
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And then if you look at God's indictment of Israel in the book of Ezekiel,
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one of the charges leveled against them is that the people of Israel are lending at interest
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Ezekiel 18, 8, the righteous person is not supposed to lend at interest or make any profit,
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But those who are evil, those who are disobedient to the Lord,
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And so we see that juxtaposition between the righteous person who takes no interest or profit
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when he is lending to his brother and then the one who is just trying to make a profit
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He doesn't like you taking advantage of other people.
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God doesn't like you taking advantage of the poor.
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He doesn't like those kind of underhanded, greedy, deceitful ways.
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And then we also see, though, that the borrower is a slave to the lender.
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The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender.
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You probably hear, for example, Dave Ramsey say that a lot.
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So I think it's important to be very careful when we are looking to take out loans.
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Not saying that always asking for money, always asking for a loan is wrong or sinful.
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I mean, sometimes you're in a situation where you absolutely have to,
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but we should be much more careful and diligent than we are now.
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especially when you have the ability and the full intention to pay them back.
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But taking out a loan that you cannot pay back, that is going to put you in a form of slavery.
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He's very gracious to kind of give us these guides.
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Of course, when you have an economy that's built on making it more difficult
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to own things and to only rent and to only be a slave to a lender.
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I mean, we could talk about the entire setup of like the agenda of the World Economic Forum
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that you are constantly in debt to the government or in debt to the lender of these things.
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I mean, there's an entire like moral framework at their anti-God framework there
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that really ownership, that private property, the personal property,
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all of these things are very good and we should be working toward them when we can.
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There's probably some debate about how that applies today.
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And then also be careful about the loans that you take out yourself.
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My family, on my dad's side of the family, has been Baptist for literally 300 years.
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We don't believe that infant baptism is biblical.
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It's just inevitable, especially from my Catholic fans who I really appreciate.
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Someone's going to tell me this is like anti-Catholic hate.
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But someone asked me what I think about infant baptism.
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And as much as I love my Presbyterian friends and align with them on so many things,
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Presbyterian theologians, people who practice paedo-baptism or infant baptism,
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like have learned so much from people like R.C. Sproul.
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But I don't believe that infant baptism is biblical simply because we do not see it in the Bible.
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We see believers' baptism in the Bible, and we do not see infant baptism.
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I understand Catholic and the Presbyterian argument that they kind of draw the concept
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of some kind of support for infant baptism from the Bible, but it's certainly not explicitly there.
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Obviously, in the Great Commission, Matthew 28, when Jesus sends us out and says,
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All authority in heaven and on earth has been given unto me, therefore, go and make disciples
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of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
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Baptism is a symbol, an outward symbol of our faith.
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I'm not saying that it's just this thing that we should take flippantly or doesn't have any significance.
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You know, I did a debate with Candace Owens' husband about Catholicism versus Protestantism,
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and one of the things that he couldn't get past when it came to Protestantism was the
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And of course, Catholics and Protestants believe different things about baptism, and they believe
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that baptism is necessary for salvation, and they practice infant baptism.
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And he kind of said, you know, if baptism is just a symbol, then why even do it?
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If it's just an outward reflection of our inward faith, which is what we Baptists believe,
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But of course, just because something is a symbol—and by the way, I think George is awesome
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and very much respect him and had a lot of fun in that conversation.
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But as I said there, just because something is a symbol doesn't mean that it's not significant.
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If we take it off, that doesn't mean that we're not married anymore.
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If we put a wedding ring on, that doesn't mean that we're married, but it symbolizes
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If someone refuses to put on a wedding ring after they get married, there are some questions
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Maybe they have a good reason, but there are some questions about someone.
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There are some questions, usually, about the faithfulness of that person.
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This is an outward showing of inward regeneration, but it does not have salvific power.
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That's really what Protestants believe in general, but particularly Baptists.
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So again, we see, just like Jesus in Matthew 28, that baptism is followed by repentance.
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It's not that Baptists, I mean, it's part of our name.
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It's not that we think that baptism isn't important.
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Because we read in places like Ephesians 2, for example, you are saved by grace through
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So this idea that infant baptism is necessary for consecration of children, that it's kind
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of a reflection of the Old Testament circumcision, I just don't see that.
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Now, if it's a form of baby dedication, like we Baptists do, we kind of dedicate our children
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and just kind of go up and say, this is our child, and the church agrees to help you raise
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your child in the Lord, help them walk in a way that's right.
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So if like sprinkled baptism is kind of just a tradition, just a form of that, then I guess
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Again, I don't think that we see that reflected necessarily in Scripture.
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So we also, and I wanted to see like this, specifically what GotQuestions said about
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You know, I love GotQuestions.org, and I wanted to see specifically what they said about
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this argument, that it is a reflection of the Old Testament symbol of circumcision, and
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In this view, just as circumcision joined a Hebrew to the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenant,
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so baptism joined a person to the new covenant of salvation through Jesus Christ.
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The New Testament nowhere describes baptism as the new covenant replacement for old covenant
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The New Testament nowhere describes baptism as a sign of the new covenant.
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It is faith in Jesus Christ that enables a person to enjoy the blessings of the new covenant,
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as we read in 1 Corinthians 11, 25, 2 Corinthians 3, 6, Hebrews 9, 15.
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Again, just no biblical support that I see for the concept of infant baptism.
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That's what we see in every single spot in the Bible.
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Even when it says like baptize your household or the entire household was baptized, some people
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use that as, oh, that's a sign that even infants were baptized.
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We don't have any evidence that people were baptized without professing faith in Jesus Christ.
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So yeah, we believe in baptism by submersion as a reflection of the faith in your heart that
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All right, can I give you hints about my next book?
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Yes, I think at this point I have talked about it a few times as I'm recording this.
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I think I've talked about it maybe a couple of times, but it comes out next year
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and it is about how faux-toxic kind of superficial empathy leads particularly women to be on the
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wrong side of issues, be on the wrong side of gender issues, immigration issues, all of
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these issues where our feelings are kind of weaponized to make us be progressive and it
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kind of hinders us from actually seeing the truth of any given situation when it comes to
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social racial justice. We're told in order to be empathetic, we have to be progressive,
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but I lay out the reasons why this just isn't true and why it's actually very dangerous and
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Why is it okay to make fun of Hollywood? Someone says. This is probably in reference to a video
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that we did a few months ago where we made fun of outfits at the Met Gala. Okay, first of all,
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the Met Gala is ridiculous. The Met Gala is supposed to be absurd. They're supposed to wear really
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weird things. And I think I said that Pedro Pascal looks like the stepson of Satan or something. True.
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True. That doesn't mean that he is not a handsome person or whatever, that he's not made in the image
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of God. But it's supposed to be absurd. We're supposed to be laughing at their outfits. I think
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a lot of the people or a lot of the things that these celebrities wear when they go to these award
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ceremonies are for the attention, are to get people to talk about it. And yeah, I do think it's different
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pointing out the funny outfits of millionaires walking on red carpets and all of their self-importance
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in a lot of cases. I do think it's different doing that versus picking out the random person
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at Walmart and making fun of them because they can't afford nice clothes. There is a difference
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in that. It's not like we're making fun of some immutable characteristic. We are making light of some
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of the silly, out-of-touch choices that they make that are so different than what the regular person
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does. Now, yeah, of course, I disagree in making fun of things that they can't help themselves or
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trying to demean them as people. But I mean, making light of some of the ridiculous outfits that they
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knowingly choose at the Met Gala and places like that, I think it adds some lightness to the podcast.
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We don't do that very often, but it's kind of fun when we do. So that would be my reason for that.
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Take it or leave it. Have you experienced church hurt, spiritual trauma? And if so,
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how did you overcome it? So I wouldn't say that I have experienced spiritual trauma.
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Now, have my feelings been hurt by people in the church? Yeah. Have I not gotten what the church
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should have given in a particular season of life? Yes. There are churches that we've went to. When
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my husband and I moved a few years ago, we've been married a couple of years. The biggest thing that
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we wanted, we were living in a new area where we didn't know very many people. We wanted a Christian
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community. And we really wanted married Christian friends in our same stage of life. That's really
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what we felt like we needed most. And so we went to a Bible preaching church that was very well-known,
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and we wanted to get into a small group. Well, it wasn't that easy to get into a small group.
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There was, this was a bigger church. Apparently these small groups were in high demand. You could
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only join every few months. And every few months they would have this process where you would go
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into the auditorium after church. They would talk to you about small groups. And then you would go
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into this other huge room where all of the available small groups in the area, their leaders would be
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there. And you would have to wait in these long lines to talk to the leaders of the small group
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that you would potentially join to see if it was right for you. But there was no guarantee that you
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would be let into these small groups. And there may not be any small groups in your, close to your
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area. It was all about availability. And if you like connected with the small group leaders,
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there weren't nearly enough small groups for the demand of people wanting to be in one.
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And when, and like, okay, so we did this for, I think a year, it was like every few months. Okay,
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we're going to try again this time. And there was always something, maybe it was less than,
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maybe it was less than a year, but we definitely tried more than one time to go through this process.
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And it was like, oh, the one near you isn't open or, um, or, you know, isn't, they're not here
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because they're not, they're, they're too big. They're not accepting new people. Or I don't know.
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There was always some reason. There was always some hurdle that was beyond our control
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that like stopped us from getting involved. And I was so annoyed by this. And I, I did,
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we had like kind of a confrontation. I emailed these people, ended up talking to them on the
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phone and said, look, you know what? I'm glad that I am an established believer because if I weren't,
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this would turn me away from the church. All we want is to have Christian friends. All we want is
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Christian community. And you make this so difficult. You don't even allow there to be a big enough
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window consistently for young married people to join. Shouldn't you want young married people
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that could then, you know, extend generations into your church? Shouldn't you make it as easy
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as possible? We looked for ways even before, okay, if we can't join a small group or there are
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different ways to get involved. And it was like, this church was so full and so like, I guess, well
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served that it was very hard, not just for us, but for a lot of people on our stage to ever
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really plug in. You need better mechanisms than that. I'm not saying that the church is perfect
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or that any church is perfect. And when churches are big, they go through growth pains and all of
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that. But this is not one of those cases. The church had been big and well-established for a
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long time. They just didn't have any good mechanisms in place. Oh, I remember what happened.
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We had like finally gone through the process. This was the last time. And we were like, okay,
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we finally like, we got into a small group and we like showed up. You also have to go through this
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like introductory thing before you actually go to your first small group. And we showed up
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and we were like, oh, uh, we don't have your name tags. We forgot to assign you to like a table or
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whatever. I think that's when we were like, yeah, we're heading out. And then we ended up at a smaller
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church that was really, really easy to get involved in. And so, um, yeah, you know, churches have their
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issues. I don't have any like hard feelings. I don't have any bitterness against that, but I do think
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it should be easy, easy to get involved and to have community. Cause this is like something that
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I tell people too, when they're going back to church for the first time in a long time, or they're going
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to church for the first time. I say, go to your local church, ask someone for help, get plugged into
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a Bible study. I say those things with the faith and the hope that the church they show up at will
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actually be available to them. Like if I had been a non-believer or someone struggling in my faith,
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and I said, I really need a Bible study. I really need a group of Christian women to help me through
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this. And they said, okay, wait six months and we'll see if we have room for you. No, I'm sorry.
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So anyway, all that to say, have I experienced quote unquote church hurt? Yes.
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And there's far worse than what I just described. There are people who have had sexual abuse. There
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are people who have dealt with real betrayal. There are people who have had pastors who have
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turned into false teachers, who have been charlatans, who have had secret lives behind
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the scenes. And so there's much more, like way deeper and worse church hurt quote unquote than
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what I just described. So that's very real. I understand. But all of us at some point have
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been disappointed in a church because the church is made up of people and people are fallible and
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people are sinful. There's no perfect institution on earth, even an institution that is a Christian
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institution because the people within it still sin. And so that's just kind of a part of the
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deal. And so we did, I mean, there was some bitterness and I think unforgiveness on my part
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after that experience. But you move on to a church, you realize, wow, this church isn't perfect either.
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And then you kind of have to adjust your mentality and realize, wow, okay, these churches don't exist,
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one, for perfection. They don't exist to meet all of my needs at all times. It doesn't mean that
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that church didn't really make big mistakes and didn't need to change because it did.
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But you have to kind of reorient yourself and say, I am here for the church. I am here to worship.
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I am here to give my spiritual gifts for the building up of the body of Christ, whatever that
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may be. It's not just to serve me. It's not just about how I feel. It's not just about having perfect
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worship and the most dynamic pastor and the most mission opportunities and the most volunteer
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opportunities. In one of those areas, the church is going to fall short. You have to prioritize.
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I prioritize biblical preaching. It needs to be sound biblical preaching. Do not waver on those big
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issues. And then I also, we also prioritize community. And then the other things still really
00:26:26.880
matter, missions, volunteer opportunities, you know, all of that. But those were the two things for us.
00:26:31.880
We found a church like that. And then we've cultivated opportunities for involvement and
00:26:37.940
things like that. And at kind of a smaller church, you can do that. It's easier to do that.
00:26:43.440
So that's what I would say. And don't, like, church hurt, I will say, is not the ultimate reason why
00:26:50.200
someone doesn't go back to church. It's not the ultimate reason. It might be one reason, and it might
00:26:54.280
be a legitimate reason. And your feelings and your hurt and your betrayal may be absolutely valid.
00:26:58.900
At the end of the day, you are not going to church. People don't go to church because of
00:27:04.740
faithlessness. People don't go to church at the end of the day because they fear man more than they
00:27:11.080
fear God. And we don't trust that it is important for us to meet with our local church, the church being
00:27:19.740
the bride of Christ, because ultimately we don't want to. We don't want to face the pain. We don't want
00:27:26.700
to be rejected again, whatever it is. But at the end of the day, we are placing our feelings over
00:27:32.620
obedience to God. I absolutely think being a part, tithing to, being an active member in a local church
00:27:39.860
is part of obedience to God. I'm not saying that if you go through a period without going to church
00:27:45.580
that you're not saved. I think all of us have probably done that at some point. Our salvation is
00:27:50.500
dependent upon that. But is it absolutely important? Is it a matter of obedience? Yes.
00:27:57.100
And so, and ask for God's grace. Ask for his help. And I would, like, when you have experienced betrayal
00:28:03.600
or you have experienced what's called church trauma or hurt, like, run to God. Run to Christ. Run to the
00:28:11.440
cross. Not away from these things. Go deeper into God's word. Because people do. A lot of people suck.
00:28:18.260
Okay? And a lot of people are untrustworthy. A lot of people are going to hurt us. And it hurts worse.
00:28:25.480
Absolutely. When it's a church leader, it hurts worse when it's someone that you have entrusted
00:28:29.940
your heart to. It hurts worse when someone is supposed to have spiritual authority over you.
00:28:35.600
But no matter how much you've been betrayed or how much you've been hurt by people who claim
00:28:41.820
the name of Jesus, like, Jesus will never hurt you. He'll never betray you. He'll never fail you.
00:28:47.600
He'll never reject you. You're never too much for him. You're never not enough for him. Because
00:28:53.360
if he saved you, he's made you a new creation. He's given you his righteousness that makes you
00:28:58.120
acceptable to God. And you are forever loved because of that. Like, Jesus is better. And
00:29:03.860
Jesus is more. And going to church and worshiping him, even though you can worship him anywhere,
00:29:08.680
but worshiping him with fellow believers in the body of Christ is absolutely worth trying to heal
00:29:16.360
from any past trauma that you've had. All right. That's all we've got time for today. We will be
00:29:22.840
back here tomorrow. Hey, guys, if you love this podcast, please leave us a five-star review wherever
00:29:33.180
you listen on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify. And if you haven't yet, please subscribe to our YouTube