Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - September 05, 2023


Ep 867 ｜ Should We Baptize Babies？ ｜ Q&A

Topics
political disagreements in marriage infant baptism church experience and disappointment church trauma
Hosted by
Allie Beth Stuckey
Mentioned
Jesus Christ Baptists Dave Ramsey Joe Biden Relatable Baptist George Allie Pedro
Ep 866 ｜ Why Christians Don't Need Jewish Traditions ｜ Guests： Jeremiah Roberts & Andrew Soncrant of 'Cultish' (Part Two) Ep 868 ｜ A Biologist Explains Sex ｜ Guest： Dr. Colin Wright (Part One)

Episode Stats


Length

29 minutes

Words per minute

181.4

Word count

5,385

Sentence count

385

Harmful content

Misogyny

3

sentences flagged

Toxicity

3

sentences flagged

Hate speech

3

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode of Relatable, we're talking about navigating political disagreements in marriage and how to deal with church hurt, trauma, and church hurt in marriage. How do you deal with political disagreements? What do you do when you disagree with your spouse on abortion, gender roles, and more?

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 What do I think about infant baptism?
00:00:04.180 How do you deal with church hurt or trauma?
00:00:08.080 Also, why is it okay to make fun of celebrities in Hollywood?
00:00:12.900 Or is it?
00:00:14.300 We've got all of this and more on this episode of Relatable,
00:00:18.040 which is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
00:00:20.700 Go to goodranchers.com.
00:00:21.840 Use code Allie at checkout. 1.00
00:00:22.900 That's goodranchers.com.
00:00:24.000 Code Allie. 1.00
00:00:30.000 Hey, guys.
00:00:34.820 Welcome to Relatable.
00:00:35.740 Hope everyone's having a wonderful week so far.
00:00:38.320 All right.
00:00:38.920 I'm going to answer some of the questions that you guys have.
00:00:41.340 Nice variety.
00:00:43.020 First question is, how do I navigate political disagreements in marriage?
00:00:48.560 Man, I really feel for this.
00:00:50.040 I think that this would be really, really hard.
00:00:51.980 I'm sure that there are a lot of couples who have this.
00:00:55.580 Or if you don't have it in marriage,
00:00:57.240 you probably have it with someone in your family, with in-laws.
00:01:00.880 I will say my husband and I are very fortunate that his family and my family,
00:01:05.740 like we are, everyone is conservative.
00:01:08.940 Maybe we've got like a rogue person somewhere out there who likes Joe Biden,
00:01:13.960 but we're all totally on the same page, at least on the big stuff.
00:01:18.780 Maybe there are some disagreements.
00:01:20.300 And so, and I'm sure that my husband and I might have some disagreements on some things,
00:01:24.740 but on the big things that really matter, we are in total alignment.
00:01:28.940 And I think that is, that kind of answers the question mostly is that,
00:01:33.340 okay, on the big things, I'm talking about the things that are explicitly in the Bible,
00:01:37.080 when it comes to gender, when it comes to marriage and family raising.
00:01:41.120 And when it comes to, when it comes to like what justice actually is versus social justice,
00:01:49.760 progressive racial justice, I also think that the Bible is very clear on this, on abortion.
00:01:54.120 Like on these big issues, because they are explicitly biblical,
00:01:58.040 I'm not saying that there can be no disagreement whatsoever in what the policies should look like,
00:02:02.860 but do you agree on what God's word says about them?
00:02:05.420 Like, do you agree on what right and wrong is?
00:02:07.840 Those are the things that I would work out, that I would work out maybe through thoughtful
00:02:11.940 and considerate and careful, respectful conversation.
00:02:16.460 Now, I would try to have these conversations at a time where you're not already in an argument,
00:02:21.660 when you're not mad at each other, and when emotions are not high.
00:02:26.000 I would do your very best to keep emotions out of it.
00:02:30.080 Now, if you do disagree on these big things like abortion,
00:02:33.560 if they think, you know, abortion's not that big of a deal,
00:02:35.720 I think it should be fine through X, you know, time in pregnancy.
00:02:39.140 And obviously, because of your biblical convictions, you don't believe that.
00:02:42.340 Look, that could be, it could be a few things for your spouse.
00:02:45.380 It could be an ignorance issue.
00:02:46.920 They have no idea what an abortion is. 1.00
00:02:49.040 It could be that they just haven't thought about it.
00:02:51.320 It could be a heart issue.
00:02:53.020 It could be that they don't understand what God's word says about the sacredness of life inside the womb,
00:02:58.280 and that they actually need to be taught those things.
00:03:00.560 I think you can encourage your husband in that.
00:03:02.320 I think that if he's willing to have a conversation about what the Bible says about those things,
00:03:06.100 that you can absolutely engage in that.
00:03:08.480 It could also be a matter of prayer, though.
00:03:10.620 If every time you bring it up, it becomes like this sore spot, this spot of contention,
00:03:14.540 and like things get really weird, and it's just like driving you apart,
00:03:18.920 then it could be a prayer thing.
00:03:20.600 It could be something that you talk about with like close friends, maybe mentors.
00:03:25.120 Maybe if you have like a really godly friend who has a really godly husband,
00:03:28.920 who has friends with your husband, if he could kind of have the conversation with him.
00:03:33.780 Now, when it comes to the not so explicitly biblical, the not so fundamental foundational things,
00:03:40.140 like maybe you disagree on some forms of economic policy or some forms of health care policy or things like that.
00:03:47.700 I mean, eventually all of these things kind of end up going back to the fundamentals.
00:03:53.360 It depends on your belief in the relationship between government and God, government and the church.
00:03:59.040 All of that kind of ends up being very basic and foundational.
00:04:02.500 But a lot of these things are complicated and gray and nuanced and aren't necessarily indicative of someone's sanctification or justification.
00:04:09.140 On those things, like if you can have a spirited conversation about them and ask curious questions,
00:04:14.280 ooh, why do you think that?
00:04:15.340 That's so interesting.
00:04:16.080 I've never thought about that before.
00:04:17.420 Or then that could be fun.
00:04:19.420 That could be a good way to like allow you guys to think through things.
00:04:22.340 If he's willing to read some of the things that you have read that convinced you of your position,
00:04:27.680 and maybe if you're willing to read some of the things that he's read or listened to that convinced him of his position,
00:04:33.660 maybe that would be a fun thing for you to do.
00:04:36.100 If, again, he shuts down every time you talk about this kind of thing,
00:04:40.600 again, that could be a heart issue for sure.
00:04:43.300 But that's probably something more to like pray through and to let go.
00:04:46.380 The most important thing is that you agree on the gospel, you agree on the authority of God's word,
00:04:51.800 you agree on the fundamental explicitly biblical things,
00:04:54.640 and then the other things will be worked out over time.
00:04:57.340 Some things are just not worth ever debating and like disagreeing on if it causes a lot of emotion and a lot of dissent between you two.
00:05:05.460 Unity in marriage.
00:05:06.820 Of course, unity in the truth.
00:05:08.360 But unity in marriage under the banner of truth is really, really important.
00:05:12.940 So that's what I would say.
00:05:14.020 I don't know if that's the most practical advice,
00:05:16.560 but that's kind of what I think at least about the principles of these kinds of disagreements in marriage.
00:05:32.560 What does the Bible say about loaning people money?
00:05:36.320 So it says a couple things.
00:05:38.000 If you look back at God's law giving to Israel, Exodus 22, 25,
00:05:42.700 if you lend money to any of my people with you who is poor,
00:05:46.360 you shall not be like a money lender to him and you shall not exact interest from him.
00:05:51.480 So you can be paid back.
00:05:53.340 You should be paid back.
00:05:54.500 I think it's right to pay someone back.
00:05:56.540 It's good and just and truthful to pay someone back when you've been loaned money.
00:06:00.660 But God is against this exacting of interest from someone.
00:06:07.160 He sees it, I think, as a form of oppression and manipulation when it comes to these kinds of transactions.
00:06:14.140 Now, obviously, we're not under the law of ancient Israel,
00:06:17.600 but I think that the principle stands that if you lend money out to a poor person,
00:06:23.400 especially if or if you lend money out to a friend who is in need,
00:06:28.620 just asking them to pay you back and, yes, expecting them to pay you back.
00:06:32.680 I think that's fine without exacting interest so that they are totally oppressed under the debt that they pay you.
00:06:38.620 I think that principle still stands today that doing that,
00:06:41.720 that oppressing them in that way would be wrong.
00:06:45.300 Like a Deuteronomy 23, 19, you shall not charge interest on loans to your brother,
00:06:49.000 interest on money, interest on food, interest on anything that is lent for interest.
00:06:54.880 Now, here's something interesting.
00:06:56.580 Deuteronomy 23, 20, you may charge a foreigner interest,
00:07:00.180 but you may not charge your brother interest.
00:07:02.540 The Lord, your God may bless you and all that you undertake in the land
00:07:05.640 that you are entering to take possession of it.
00:07:07.480 Now, we would have to go into that chapter and look at all the context to really like
00:07:11.000 exegete and understand exactly what is meant by that.
00:07:14.860 But I think that that's interesting.
00:07:16.340 I mean, that's something that opposes a lot of like what the progressives say about who God is
00:07:20.480 and how he would never create any kind of delineation between like one nation and another nation.
00:07:26.040 There are no different laws for foreigners.
00:07:27.980 I mean, that's not true.
00:07:28.720 There are many different laws, by the way,
00:07:30.120 for foreigners in the Old Testament than there were for the people of Israel,
00:07:33.240 for the nation of Israel.
00:07:34.300 And then if you look at God's indictment of Israel in the book of Ezekiel,
00:07:41.860 one of the charges leveled against them is that the people of Israel are lending at interest
00:07:47.440 and then taking a profit.
00:07:50.160 And so God sees that as evil.
00:07:52.740 Ezekiel 18, 8, the righteous person is not supposed to lend at interest or make any profit,
00:07:59.800 and he withholds his hand from injustice.
00:08:02.120 He executes true justice between man and man.
00:08:05.900 But those who are evil, those who are disobedient to the Lord,
00:08:09.680 are lending at an interest in taking a profit.
00:08:13.180 And so we see that juxtaposition between the righteous person who takes no interest or profit
00:08:17.940 when he is lending to his brother and then the one who is just trying to make a profit
00:08:21.500 when he is lending money to the poor.
00:08:23.440 God doesn't like that.
00:08:24.700 He doesn't like you taking advantage of other people.
00:08:26.860 God doesn't like you taking advantage of the poor.
00:08:28.840 He doesn't like those kind of underhanded, greedy, deceitful ways.
00:08:32.700 It's an abomination to him.
00:08:35.300 And then we also see, though, that the borrower is a slave to the lender.
00:08:43.320 The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender.
00:08:47.680 That's Proverbs 22, 7.
00:08:50.240 You probably hear, for example, Dave Ramsey say that a lot.
00:08:53.380 So I think it's important to be very careful when we are looking to take out loans.
00:08:59.620 Not saying that always asking for money, always asking for a loan is wrong or sinful.
00:09:06.400 I mean, sometimes you're in a situation where you absolutely have to,
00:09:09.180 but we should be much more careful and diligent than we are now.
00:09:12.260 I mean, that includes student loans.
00:09:13.560 That includes car loans.
00:09:14.700 That includes every kind of loan.
00:09:16.220 Again, not all loans are necessarily bad,
00:09:19.020 especially when you have the ability and the full intention to pay them back.
00:09:22.400 But taking out a loan that you cannot pay back, that is going to put you in a form of slavery.
00:09:27.880 And so God is very wise.
00:09:29.220 He's very gracious to kind of give us these guides.
00:09:33.240 Of course, when you have an economy that's built on making it more difficult
00:09:36.640 to own things and to only rent and to only be a slave to a lender.
00:09:40.980 I mean, we could talk about the entire setup of like the agenda of the World Economic Forum
00:09:47.340 to make sure that no one really owns anything,
00:09:50.100 that you are constantly in debt to the government or in debt to the lender of these things.
00:09:55.780 I mean, there's an entire like moral framework at their anti-God framework there
00:10:00.380 that really ownership, that private property, the personal property,
00:10:04.620 all of these things are very good and we should be working toward them when we can.
00:10:11.100 Again, lend out.
00:10:13.580 Don't take an interest with your brother.
00:10:16.060 There's probably some debate about how that applies today.
00:10:20.160 And then also be careful about the loans that you take out yourself.
00:10:26.400 All right, next question.
00:10:31.480 Infant baptism.
00:10:33.040 Nice and controversial.
00:10:35.060 So I'm Baptist.
00:10:36.100 I've been Baptist my whole life.
00:10:38.080 My family, on my dad's side of the family, has been Baptist for literally 300 years.
00:10:42.420 So we do not practice infant baptism.
00:10:44.640 We don't believe that infant baptism is biblical.
00:10:47.640 Don't get mad at me.
00:10:48.620 Someone asked me what I think about this.
00:10:50.420 So I'm going to tell you.
00:10:51.340 I know.
00:10:51.780 I already know.
00:10:52.400 I'm going to get the messages though.
00:10:53.660 I'm going to get the messages and the reviews.
00:10:54.960 It's just inevitable, especially from my Catholic fans who I really appreciate.
00:10:59.880 Someone's going to tell me this is like anti-Catholic hate.
00:11:03.300 But someone asked me what I think about infant baptism.
00:11:06.680 And as much as I love my Presbyterian friends and align with them on so many things,
00:11:12.160 I've learned from many Presbyterians.
00:11:14.900 Presbyterian theologians, people who practice paedo-baptism or infant baptism,
00:11:18.860 like have learned so much from people like R.C. Sproul.
00:11:21.740 But I don't believe that infant baptism is biblical simply because we do not see it in the Bible.
00:11:30.400 It's really as simple as that.
00:11:31.620 We see believers' baptism in the Bible, and we do not see infant baptism.
00:11:38.320 There's just no support.
00:11:40.080 I understand Catholic and the Presbyterian argument that they kind of draw the concept
00:11:46.560 of some kind of support for infant baptism from the Bible, but it's certainly not explicitly there.
00:11:51.540 We see what baptism is described as.
00:11:55.020 Obviously, in the Great Commission, Matthew 28, when Jesus sends us out and says,
00:12:00.260 All authority in heaven and on earth has been given unto me, therefore, go and make disciples
00:12:06.200 of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
00:12:11.260 That making of a disciple is a precursor.
00:12:15.120 Baptism is a symbol, an outward symbol of our faith.
00:12:18.300 It's obviously very important.
00:12:19.820 I'm not saying that it's just this thing that we should take flippantly or doesn't have any significance.
00:12:27.000 It's extremely significant.
00:12:29.060 You know, I did a debate with Candace Owens' husband about Catholicism versus Protestantism,
00:12:33.820 and one of the things that he couldn't get past when it came to Protestantism was the
00:12:38.660 significance of baptism.
00:12:40.120 And of course, Catholics and Protestants believe different things about baptism, and they believe
00:12:45.380 that baptism is necessary for salvation, and they practice infant baptism.
00:12:51.980 And he kind of said, you know, if baptism is just a symbol, then why even do it?
00:12:57.300 If it's just an outward reflection of our inward faith, which is what we Baptists believe,
00:13:02.480 then why even do it?
00:13:03.740 But of course, just because something is a symbol—and by the way, I think George is awesome
00:13:08.000 and very much respect him and had a lot of fun in that conversation.
00:13:10.820 I'm thankful to be a part of it.
00:13:12.020 But as I said there, just because something is a symbol doesn't mean that it's not significant.
00:13:16.480 Why do we wear wedding rings?
00:13:18.640 If we take it off, that doesn't mean that we're not married anymore.
00:13:21.080 If we put a wedding ring on, that doesn't mean that we're married, but it symbolizes
00:13:24.120 something really important.
00:13:25.740 It is an outward reflection to the world.
00:13:27.420 If someone refuses to put on a wedding ring after they get married, there are some questions
00:13:32.540 about that, right?
00:13:33.340 Maybe they have a good reason, but there are some questions about someone.
00:13:36.260 Or who never wants to wear it publicly?
00:13:38.260 There are some questions, usually, about the faithfulness of that person.
00:13:44.920 So symbols do matter.
00:13:46.020 This is an outward showing of inward regeneration, but it does not have salvific power.
00:13:52.680 That is what the Baptist believes.
00:13:55.840 That's really what Protestants believe in general, but particularly Baptists.
00:14:00.860 So Acts 2.38,
00:14:02.420 So again, we see, just like Jesus in Matthew 28, that baptism is followed by repentance.
00:14:17.980 Romans 6.3-4,
00:14:19.140 So we see how important baptism is.
00:14:33.400 It's not that Baptists, I mean, it's part of our name.
00:14:35.740 It's not that we think that baptism isn't important.
00:14:38.300 We just don't believe it is what saves you.
00:14:40.620 Because we read in places like Ephesians 2, for example, you are saved by grace through
00:14:45.440 faith.
00:14:46.320 So this idea that infant baptism is necessary for consecration of children, that it's kind
00:14:53.700 of a reflection of the Old Testament circumcision, I just don't see that.
00:14:58.760 I don't see that reflected in Scripture.
00:15:01.120 Now, if it's a form of baby dedication, like we Baptists do, we kind of dedicate our children
00:15:06.640 and just kind of go up and say, this is our child, and the church agrees to help you raise
00:15:12.640 your child in the Lord, help them walk in a way that's right.
00:15:17.140 So if like sprinkled baptism is kind of just a tradition, just a form of that, then I guess
00:15:23.960 that's one thing.
00:15:24.800 Again, I don't think that we see that reflected necessarily in Scripture.
00:15:28.480 So we also, and I wanted to see like this, specifically what GotQuestions said about
00:15:36.120 this.
00:15:36.480 You know, I love GotQuestions.org, and I wanted to see specifically what they said about
00:15:41.200 this argument, that it is a reflection of the Old Testament symbol of circumcision, and
00:15:48.540 that's why we have to baptize infants today.
00:15:50.980 And this is what GotQuestions.org says.
00:15:53.380 In this view, just as circumcision joined a Hebrew to the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenant,
00:15:57.680 so baptism joined a person to the new covenant of salvation through Jesus Christ.
00:16:01.240 This view is unbiblical.
00:16:02.900 The New Testament nowhere describes baptism as the new covenant replacement for old covenant
00:16:07.120 circumcision.
00:16:07.860 The New Testament nowhere describes baptism as a sign of the new covenant.
00:16:11.680 It is faith in Jesus Christ that enables a person to enjoy the blessings of the new covenant,
00:16:15.240 as we read in 1 Corinthians 11, 25, 2 Corinthians 3, 6, Hebrews 9, 15.
00:16:21.940 So yeah, that's where I stand on that.
00:16:26.160 Again, just no biblical support that I see for the concept of infant baptism.
00:16:32.100 It's believer's baptism.
00:16:33.340 That's what we see in every single spot in the Bible.
00:16:35.880 Even when it says like baptize your household or the entire household was baptized, some people
00:16:42.240 use that as, oh, that's a sign that even infants were baptized.
00:16:46.140 Well, we don't have any evidence of that.
00:16:48.040 We don't have any evidence that people were baptized without professing faith in Jesus Christ.
00:16:54.160 So yeah, we believe in baptism by submersion as a reflection of the faith in your heart that
00:17:01.560 you have professed in Christ.
00:17:03.200 All right, can I give you hints about my next book?
00:17:21.100 Yes, I think at this point I have talked about it a few times as I'm recording this.
00:17:26.780 I think I've talked about it maybe a couple of times, but it comes out next year
00:17:30.760 and it is about how faux-toxic kind of superficial empathy leads particularly women to be on the
00:17:41.200 wrong side of issues, be on the wrong side of gender issues, immigration issues, all of
00:17:47.700 these issues where our feelings are kind of weaponized to make us be progressive and it
00:17:53.380 kind of hinders us from actually seeing the truth of any given situation when it comes to
00:17:57.960 social racial justice. We're told in order to be empathetic, we have to be progressive,
00:18:02.280 but I lay out the reasons why this just isn't true and why it's actually very dangerous and
00:18:07.180 unbiblical.
00:18:09.340 Why is it okay to make fun of Hollywood? Someone says. This is probably in reference to a video
00:18:14.580 that we did a few months ago where we made fun of outfits at the Met Gala. Okay, first of all,
00:18:21.240 the Met Gala is ridiculous. The Met Gala is supposed to be absurd. They're supposed to wear really 0.97
00:18:26.480 weird things. And I think I said that Pedro Pascal looks like the stepson of Satan or something. True.
00:18:33.120 True. That doesn't mean that he is not a handsome person or whatever, that he's not made in the image
00:18:39.880 of God. But it's supposed to be absurd. We're supposed to be laughing at their outfits. I think
00:18:44.360 a lot of the people or a lot of the things that these celebrities wear when they go to these award
00:18:49.280 ceremonies are for the attention, are to get people to talk about it. And yeah, I do think it's different
00:18:55.300 pointing out the funny outfits of millionaires walking on red carpets and all of their self-importance
00:19:03.280 in a lot of cases. I do think it's different doing that versus picking out the random person
00:19:07.620 at Walmart and making fun of them because they can't afford nice clothes. There is a difference
00:19:12.220 in that. It's not like we're making fun of some immutable characteristic. We are making light of some
00:19:18.600 of the silly, out-of-touch choices that they make that are so different than what the regular person
00:19:23.780 does. Now, yeah, of course, I disagree in making fun of things that they can't help themselves or 0.76
00:19:29.760 trying to demean them as people. But I mean, making light of some of the ridiculous outfits that they
00:19:35.540 knowingly choose at the Met Gala and places like that, I think it adds some lightness to the podcast.
00:19:42.420 We don't do that very often, but it's kind of fun when we do. So that would be my reason for that.
00:19:49.860 Take it or leave it. Have you experienced church hurt, spiritual trauma? And if so,
00:19:55.020 how did you overcome it? So I wouldn't say that I have experienced spiritual trauma.
00:20:01.740 Now, have my feelings been hurt by people in the church? Yeah. Have I not gotten what the church
00:20:09.040 should have given in a particular season of life? Yes. There are churches that we've went to. When
00:20:15.040 my husband and I moved a few years ago, we've been married a couple of years. The biggest thing that
00:20:20.100 we wanted, we were living in a new area where we didn't know very many people. We wanted a Christian
00:20:24.460 community. And we really wanted married Christian friends in our same stage of life. That's really
00:20:29.640 what we felt like we needed most. And so we went to a Bible preaching church that was very well-known,
00:20:36.640 and we wanted to get into a small group. Well, it wasn't that easy to get into a small group.
00:20:42.460 There was, this was a bigger church. Apparently these small groups were in high demand. You could
00:20:46.360 only join every few months. And every few months they would have this process where you would go
00:20:52.060 into the auditorium after church. They would talk to you about small groups. And then you would go
00:20:55.440 into this other huge room where all of the available small groups in the area, their leaders would be
00:21:02.180 there. And you would have to wait in these long lines to talk to the leaders of the small group
00:21:07.840 that you would potentially join to see if it was right for you. But there was no guarantee that you
00:21:12.660 would be let into these small groups. And there may not be any small groups in your, close to your
00:21:18.140 area. It was all about availability. And if you like connected with the small group leaders,
00:21:23.060 there weren't nearly enough small groups for the demand of people wanting to be in one.
00:21:28.000 And when, and like, okay, so we did this for, I think a year, it was like every few months. Okay,
00:21:33.060 we're going to try again this time. And there was always something, maybe it was less than,
00:21:36.880 maybe it was less than a year, but we definitely tried more than one time to go through this process.
00:21:40.640 And it was like, oh, the one near you isn't open or, um, or, you know, isn't, they're not here
00:21:47.420 because they're not, they're, they're too big. They're not accepting new people. Or I don't know.
00:21:52.820 There was always some reason. There was always some hurdle that was beyond our control
00:21:56.440 that like stopped us from getting involved. And I was so annoyed by this. And I, I did,
00:22:01.840 we had like kind of a confrontation. I emailed these people, ended up talking to them on the
00:22:06.000 phone and said, look, you know what? I'm glad that I am an established believer because if I weren't,
00:22:12.240 this would turn me away from the church. All we want is to have Christian friends. All we want is
00:22:17.660 Christian community. And you make this so difficult. You don't even allow there to be a big enough 1.00
00:22:21.760 window consistently for young married people to join. Shouldn't you want young married people 1.00
00:22:27.100 that could then, you know, extend generations into your church? Shouldn't you make it as easy
00:22:31.280 as possible? We looked for ways even before, okay, if we can't join a small group or there are
00:22:35.260 different ways to get involved. And it was like, this church was so full and so like, I guess, well
00:22:41.100 served that it was very hard, not just for us, but for a lot of people on our stage to ever
00:22:46.880 really plug in. You need better mechanisms than that. I'm not saying that the church is perfect
00:22:52.880 or that any church is perfect. And when churches are big, they go through growth pains and all of
00:22:57.220 that. But this is not one of those cases. The church had been big and well-established for a
00:23:00.660 long time. They just didn't have any good mechanisms in place. Oh, I remember what happened.
00:23:04.960 We had like finally gone through the process. This was the last time. And we were like, okay,
00:23:08.400 we finally like, we got into a small group and we like showed up. You also have to go through this
00:23:13.340 like introductory thing before you actually go to your first small group. And we showed up
00:23:17.140 and we were like, oh, uh, we don't have your name tags. We forgot to assign you to like a table or
00:23:22.840 whatever. I think that's when we were like, yeah, we're heading out. And then we ended up at a smaller
00:23:27.040 church that was really, really easy to get involved in. And so, um, yeah, you know, churches have their
00:23:32.760 issues. I don't have any like hard feelings. I don't have any bitterness against that, but I do think
00:23:38.080 it should be easy, easy to get involved and to have community. Cause this is like something that
00:23:43.160 I tell people too, when they're going back to church for the first time in a long time, or they're going
00:23:49.680 to church for the first time. I say, go to your local church, ask someone for help, get plugged into
00:23:55.300 a Bible study. I say those things with the faith and the hope that the church they show up at will
00:24:00.140 actually be available to them. Like if I had been a non-believer or someone struggling in my faith,
00:24:05.220 and I said, I really need a Bible study. I really need a group of Christian women to help me through
00:24:11.060 this. And they said, okay, wait six months and we'll see if we have room for you. No, I'm sorry.
00:24:16.160 That's not what the church should be.
00:24:17.540 So anyway, all that to say, have I experienced quote unquote church hurt? Yes.
00:24:36.340 And there's far worse than what I just described. There are people who have had sexual abuse. There
00:24:41.480 are people who have dealt with real betrayal. There are people who have had pastors who have
00:24:45.180 turned into false teachers, who have been charlatans, who have had secret lives behind
00:24:48.740 the scenes. And so there's much more, like way deeper and worse church hurt quote unquote than
00:24:54.680 what I just described. So that's very real. I understand. But all of us at some point have
00:25:01.760 been disappointed in a church because the church is made up of people and people are fallible and
00:25:06.220 people are sinful. There's no perfect institution on earth, even an institution that is a Christian 1.00
00:25:11.700 institution because the people within it still sin. And so that's just kind of a part of the
00:25:16.020 deal. And so we did, I mean, there was some bitterness and I think unforgiveness on my part
00:25:21.740 after that experience. But you move on to a church, you realize, wow, this church isn't perfect either.
00:25:27.660 And then you kind of have to adjust your mentality and realize, wow, okay, these churches don't exist,
00:25:33.480 one, for perfection. They don't exist to meet all of my needs at all times. It doesn't mean that
00:25:38.800 that church didn't really make big mistakes and didn't need to change because it did.
00:25:44.380 But you have to kind of reorient yourself and say, I am here for the church. I am here to worship.
00:25:51.560 I am here to give my spiritual gifts for the building up of the body of Christ, whatever that
00:25:57.420 may be. It's not just to serve me. It's not just about how I feel. It's not just about having perfect
00:26:03.060 worship and the most dynamic pastor and the most mission opportunities and the most volunteer
00:26:08.520 opportunities. In one of those areas, the church is going to fall short. You have to prioritize.
00:26:15.260 I prioritize biblical preaching. It needs to be sound biblical preaching. Do not waver on those big
00:26:21.080 issues. And then I also, we also prioritize community. And then the other things still really
00:26:26.880 matter, missions, volunteer opportunities, you know, all of that. But those were the two things for us.
00:26:31.880 We found a church like that. And then we've cultivated opportunities for involvement and
00:26:37.940 things like that. And at kind of a smaller church, you can do that. It's easier to do that.
00:26:43.440 So that's what I would say. And don't, like, church hurt, I will say, is not the ultimate reason why
00:26:50.200 someone doesn't go back to church. It's not the ultimate reason. It might be one reason, and it might
00:26:54.280 be a legitimate reason. And your feelings and your hurt and your betrayal may be absolutely valid.
00:26:58.900 At the end of the day, you are not going to church. People don't go to church because of
00:27:04.740 faithlessness. People don't go to church at the end of the day because they fear man more than they
00:27:11.080 fear God. And we don't trust that it is important for us to meet with our local church, the church being
00:27:19.740 the bride of Christ, because ultimately we don't want to. We don't want to face the pain. We don't want
00:27:26.700 to be rejected again, whatever it is. But at the end of the day, we are placing our feelings over
00:27:32.620 obedience to God. I absolutely think being a part, tithing to, being an active member in a local church
00:27:39.860 is part of obedience to God. I'm not saying that if you go through a period without going to church
00:27:45.580 that you're not saved. I think all of us have probably done that at some point. Our salvation is
00:27:50.500 dependent upon that. But is it absolutely important? Is it a matter of obedience? Yes.
00:27:57.100 And so, and ask for God's grace. Ask for his help. And I would, like, when you have experienced betrayal
00:28:03.600 or you have experienced what's called church trauma or hurt, like, run to God. Run to Christ. Run to the
00:28:11.440 cross. Not away from these things. Go deeper into God's word. Because people do. A lot of people suck.
00:28:18.260 Okay? And a lot of people are untrustworthy. A lot of people are going to hurt us. And it hurts worse. 1.00
00:28:25.480 Absolutely. When it's a church leader, it hurts worse when it's someone that you have entrusted
00:28:29.940 your heart to. It hurts worse when someone is supposed to have spiritual authority over you.
00:28:35.600 But no matter how much you've been betrayed or how much you've been hurt by people who claim
00:28:41.820 the name of Jesus, like, Jesus will never hurt you. He'll never betray you. He'll never fail you.
00:28:47.600 He'll never reject you. You're never too much for him. You're never not enough for him. Because
00:28:53.360 if he saved you, he's made you a new creation. He's given you his righteousness that makes you
00:28:58.120 acceptable to God. And you are forever loved because of that. Like, Jesus is better. And
00:29:03.860 Jesus is more. And going to church and worshiping him, even though you can worship him anywhere,
00:29:08.680 but worshiping him with fellow believers in the body of Christ is absolutely worth trying to heal
00:29:16.360 from any past trauma that you've had. All right. That's all we've got time for today. We will be
00:29:22.840 back here tomorrow. Hey, guys, if you love this podcast, please leave us a five-star review wherever
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00:29:40.200 channel. Thanks.