Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - September 07, 2023


Ep 869 ｜ Does the Right Need More Atheism？ ｜ Dr. Colin Wright (Part Two)


Episode Stats


Length

27 minutes

Words per minute

178.68144

Word count

4,911

Sentence count

251

Harmful content

Misogyny

5

sentences flagged

Hate speech

24

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In part two of our conversation with evolutionary biologist Dr. Colin Wright, we discuss morality and rights from a Christian and Atheist perspective. Dr. Wright explains the differences between the worldview of the two, and how they can work together.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.560 From where do morality and rights come from the atheist perspective? That's what I'm trying to
00:00:07.040 get at today with my guest, evolutionary biologist, Dr. Colin Wright. This is the second part of our
00:00:15.540 two-part conversation. We'll also be discussing, can the Christian right and atheists link arms
00:00:22.160 when we can't really agree on where our values are actually derived? I think you're going to
00:00:28.440 get a lot out of this. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to
00:00:32.300 GoodRanchers.com. Use code Allie at checkout. That's GoodRanchers.com, code Allie.
00:00:45.780 So this part of the conversation is going to kind of transition us into the more
00:00:49.780 discussing worldview, Christianity versus atheism. And I'll kind of explain the bridge that I at
00:00:57.600 least see in my mind. But why can't we say, okay, sex is fixed. Fine. You know better than I do. But
00:01:05.580 gender is fluid. And there is such thing as a way to identify according to how you feel, 0.95
00:01:12.420 according to how you think. And that really is a spectrum. That really is fluid. Even if you're
00:01:18.900 biologically male or female, we should be able to be, to present as the opposite sex and live as the 0.96
00:01:26.880 opposite sex, because that is truly how we feel. So why does physical reality matter more than how
00:01:34.420 someone says they sincerely feel in their heart and mind?
00:01:40.420 Yeah. So I think that sex, you know, it matters, but it really only matters in certain contexts.
00:01:47.360 Like, I don't think we should consider someone sex if we're trying to decide whether they should get a
00:01:52.120 promotion, whether we're going to hire them. You know, there's, there's very few aspects in society,
00:01:56.980 I think, where we need to really be vetting people based on their biological sex. It's only 0.71
00:02:01.480 in certain areas like sports and changing rooms, who prisons you go to, you know, all the things that
00:02:08.460 are currently being debated in society right now. Those are the areas where, you know, it's really
00:02:12.420 important for reasons of safety or fairness. So most contexts, yes, sex probably shouldn't matter. 0.61
00:02:18.520 And I think that a lot of what, well, what a lot of people are referring to as gender identity
00:02:23.480 is really just a, there's your self-assessed position along some imaginary spectrum of masculine
00:02:31.980 or feminine stereotypes. So most people sort of can conceive of themselves as encompassing varying
00:02:38.900 degrees of stereotypical masculinity or femininity. This isn't really a gender identity. This is just sort
00:02:44.520 of recognizing facts about yourself regarding just the way that you feel. You know, there are some
00:02:50.700 women who are very masculine. There are some men who are naturally very feminine. This doesn't mean
00:02:55.880 they're born in the wrong body. This doesn't mean they have a gender identity of a female. If you happen
00:03:02.240 to be male, this just means that you're gender nonconforming. I mean, part of evolutionary biology is 0.80
00:03:07.140 that we have variation within and between categories in almost every category in nature. It's natural for
00:03:15.220 men to be effeminate. It's natural for females to be masculine to some degree, even if it's not, 1.00
00:03:21.180 you know, typical for their sex. You know, sex atypical, atypicality is a thing. This shouldn't
00:03:28.260 be shunned. I think if somebody wants to express themselves in more feminine ways than they're a boy or
00:03:34.080 a man, then they should, you know, by and large, be able to express themselves like this. But we need
00:03:38.940 to be able to keep this this line between, you know, how you choose to express yourself and the
00:03:44.440 way that you feel internally and want to wear clothes and makeup to whatever degree with your
00:03:50.200 actual biological sex and where in the areas where that that matters, because your gender identity
00:03:55.420 doesn't really matter. I think in any other context, I think most people should just be,
00:03:59.760 you know, yeah, you can be a masculine woman or a feminine boy. That's that's fine. I don't 0.98
00:04:03.940 see anything wrong with that. I think that's just part of natural human variation that we should
00:04:08.300 all sort of just get over. You know, it's a real thing. But identity, when it comes to pronouns,
00:04:16.040 when it comes to spaces, when it comes to athletic teams, you believe, as I do,
00:04:21.680 should be in accordance with someone's sex. Absolutely. Yeah. Do you believe I'm curious,
00:04:28.720 like, do you believe in using someone's preferred pronouns if you know that they're really the opposite
00:04:32.380 sex? So no, I only make an exception for people who are like my my close friends who identify as
00:04:43.860 trans and who I know aren't actually delusional about their biological sex. So I'm friends with
00:04:50.100 Buck Angel, for instance. Buck Angel is the first who's identifies as a trans man, a biological female.
00:04:56.740 Buck is the first person to tell everyone that they're biologically female. They just present 1.00
00:05:03.400 as masculine because it helps them, you know, feel better and move through the world appearing this
00:05:10.020 way. So I refer to Buck with he him pronouns, partly because Buck honestly just looks like a man. So it's
00:05:18.720 not difficult to do. And Buck's my my good friend. And I know that I'm not participating in a delusion
00:05:25.600 with Buck because Buck is not delusional. I won't use opposite sex pronouns for children ever. I won't
00:05:32.100 use it, you know, for people I don't know. I'll just use their name, things like that. But I do have
00:05:37.480 sort of a a personal friend exception, so long as I know that they're not personally delusional,
00:05:42.900 and I'm not participating in a delusion.
00:05:55.600 I wonder also if you see a difference between so someone like Buck, who is a a female definitely 1.00
00:06:05.060 looks male. So I agree with you on that. But we're not really concerned. I think most people
00:06:11.920 aren't really concerned with like the safety and fairness aspect of a female who tries to present 1.00
00:06:19.320 as a male, you know, going into the men's bathroom or going, you know, trying to compete against men,
00:06:25.900 even though I believe that to be morally wrong to try to gender bend and all of these things like 1.00
00:06:30.400 we're not as concerned about men's rights being violated by these women who want to identify as 0.92
00:06:36.120 men. So I think it's there's like a little less sympathy, it seems. I mean, even from me,
00:06:43.560 a little less sympathy for even someone who is like, you know what, I know I'm biologically male.
00:06:48.700 If they say I know I'm biologically male, but I still want to present as a woman. And so I am
00:06:53.460 going to go into your bathroom, like I am going to go into your locker room, I am going to be in 1.00
00:06:58.200 your spaces. Because I mean, it's kind of like Caitlyn Jenner, who I think acknowledges the reality of
00:07:02.480 male and female and even the distinctions and, and male female sports, but still considers himself
00:07:07.980 fully a woman and would enter women's spaces like I that is still participating in a delusion, 1.00
00:07:14.560 even if they understand their sex. It's like, well, you're still trying to categorize yourself
00:07:19.280 as something that you're not. And I don't want a man in my spaces. 1.00
00:07:23.280 Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. I mean, I would not support any of, you know, any women, or sorry, 1.00
00:07:29.200 any of my friends who identify as trans women from entering female spaces, I definitely do not support. 0.96
00:07:34.900 Um, yeah, going into female spaces, if they're male. So yeah, I totally agree there. 0.99
00:07:42.220 I want to transition to a conversation about atheism versus Christianity. And the reason why I ask 0.66
00:07:47.440 why, like, why is sex more important than how someone identifies? And I think that you've explained
00:07:54.300 it very well from a scientific perspective, that identities don't compete, bodies compete. There are
00:08:00.660 contexts in which, like, the body is just important, and the identity really, the stated identity really
00:08:09.120 doesn't matter. But still, I understand from someone's perspective who kind of how, in my
00:08:15.540 language, I would say, sees themselves as God. So sees themselves as the definer and the arbiter of all
00:08:21.480 things. If they say, I really am a woman because what I feel on the inside is authenticity, is authentic
00:08:29.080 to who I am. And I get to determine my own truth. I get to determine my own reality. And of course,
00:08:35.760 I am going to go into these spaces that align with how I really, truly feel. And this body is just kind
00:08:40.820 of a clump of cells. It's just kind of a bunch of matter. And I get to dress it up and call it whatever
00:08:46.880 I want to, because who I really am is how I feel on the inside. Like, to me, that is an anti-Christian
00:08:53.900 belief that I can understand from someone who is godless, who believes that biology can kind of be
00:09:02.220 dictated by, or, like, reality can be dictated by how we feel. And so that is, like, that's where I'm
00:09:07.840 coming from. At the end of the day, the reason why biology matters, the reason why sex matters is
00:09:13.240 because there is someone who says so. An authority that's higher than me, that's higher than you,
00:09:17.940 that's higher than biology, who says he created us male and female. So it doesn't matter really how you
00:09:22.760 feel. From your perspective, obviously, you're coming from an evolutionary perspective. You
00:09:27.840 don't believe in any kind of intelligent designer. And you've said before, you actually think atheism
00:09:33.280 is an important aspect of this debate, correct?
00:09:38.260 I think it's an important aspect of a lot of debates. And, you know, I wouldn't know if it's,
00:09:43.440 I wouldn't say it's an important aspect of this specific debate. I tend to be closer to the,
00:09:49.040 you know, my Christian friends, because they at least tend to acknowledge the reality of biological
00:09:54.680 sex. We might disagree on how the sexes were created and how we got to the position that we
00:10:00.900 are. But we agree on the facts and the shared reality that we're staring at, to that degree.
00:10:09.000 You know, whereas when I talk to people who are sort of more on the woke side of things,
00:10:13.000 you know, they don't even think there's a shared reality. They think the reality is constructed
00:10:16.780 through language, et cetera, et cetera. So I have way more in common with my Christian friends who
00:10:21.540 believe that, you know, God created man and woman, and that's the end of it than I do with the people
00:10:25.500 who don't even think truth is a real thing to be, that we're looking at. We can't even look at the
00:10:30.060 same thing and agree that we're looking at the same thing.
00:10:32.940 Right. And you responded recently to an interview, I think it was between Charlie Kirk and Tucker Carlson.
00:10:40.060 And Tucker said, you know, he just doesn't have any tolerance anymore for atheism. He said,
00:10:46.780 my tolerance for atheism has really dwindled to nothing. And, or I guess maybe this is Charlie
00:10:53.000 Kirk actually saying this, but the idea that people who are completely certain as a matter of
00:10:57.700 religious faith, that there's no God, I just find it hilarious and so childish that I can't take 1.00
00:11:02.500 it seriously. I can't tell who is actually saying what it was. Okay. Tucker. Yeah. It kind of sounds
00:11:09.440 like Tucker now that I'm reading it. Um, so, and you responded to this saying, you know what,
00:11:15.640 the right needs more atheism. Like you don't need to alienate us is kind of what you said. We already
00:11:20.700 feel in large part politically homeless. So what do you mean by you think kind of the right actually
00:11:26.220 needs more atheism than it has right now? Yeah. So what I don't mean is that I think
00:11:35.840 the people on the right or Christians need to convert to atheism and denounce their God. You know, 0.99
00:11:42.100 um, uh, I'm an atheist. I lack the belief in a God and, you know, that's a position I'm willing
00:11:47.260 to defend in conversations. And I think, I think it's true, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I
00:11:52.780 want everyone who were on the right to then just, you know, convert and that they need to
00:11:57.300 or any degree or anything like that. Um, what I mean is that I think that there are a lot of
00:12:05.760 atheists who are disaffected from the left because I used to be part of the new atheist movement,
00:12:10.440 if you want to call it that, um, that was taken over by a lot of the woke ideology. It was kind of
00:12:15.920 a canary in the coal mine for a lot of the, the takeover of institutions that we're seeing right now.
00:12:20.440 Atheism was one of the first to fall to this ideology and me and a lot of other people who
00:12:25.840 were, uh, in the movement, including a lot of prominent figures like Richard Dawkins and Steven
00:12:30.320 Pinker, you know, they're very much opposed to that woke takeover, um, that happened to that
00:12:36.180 organization. So a lot of us feel politically homeless and we feel more affinity to the values
00:12:43.380 that we see that are over on the right, that are shared by many Christians, even though if we're
00:12:48.240 not Christian ourselves. So I guess what my plea, when I say that the right needs more atheism means
00:12:54.880 that they need to, I think, make their tent large enough where what they're organizing around isn't
00:13:00.820 necessarily saying that you need to believe in the source of, of these values that we have,
00:13:08.620 that we need to share the same ideas of where these values came from, but rather we should be
00:13:14.040 focusing on, well, first and foremost, do we have shared values? So if we just have a values first
00:13:20.380 requirement to join this coalition, then I think we can then later debate about where these came from,
00:13:28.240 whether that's important. I think that's actually secondary to whether or not we agree
00:13:32.440 on, uh, just sort of some core principle values related to free speech, um, you know, uh, sort of
00:13:40.000 freedom, the limits of certain governments, you know, these are the things that I think matter most,
00:13:46.120 um, in terms of morality and connecting with people, then, you know, was this the result of
00:13:53.560 evolution or was this, you know, done by divine creator? So, um, so yeah, I think that, I hope that
00:14:00.860 makes sense. This is, uh, we need to have a values first approach because I find myself having more
00:14:07.340 affinity to the values of, of the right than I do with a lot of people on, on the left right now.
00:14:24.180 Do you feel that atheism is like a good antidote to what has become basically a woke religion on the left?
00:14:37.340 I don't think atheism in itself is really, um, it's, it's not a moral code. So it's, it's just
00:14:44.480 sort of in the way I conceive of atheism, it is a, a lack of belief in a God or a gods. And then there
00:14:51.720 are other sort of moral worldviews and frameworks that you need to take on to give yourself, to give
00:14:57.500 your life, uh, meaning for instance. Um, I think that it's probably true that we can peg a lot of the,
00:15:05.500 um, disillusionment, a lot of the radicalism, a lot of this embracing of, of woke ideology with
00:15:12.360 sort of a decrease in religiosity. Um, but that doesn't mean I think that atheism is therefore
00:15:18.900 needs to be equated with being woke or it's a necessary consequence. Cause there's a lot of
00:15:23.100 atheists who, who didn't go that direction. Um, I think a major mishap of new atheism, and I'll
00:15:30.800 actually, I'll, I'll blame Dawkins for some of this too, because I remember agreeing with Dawkins
00:15:36.460 before when he would sit, he would be asked a question like, well, when you get rid of religion,
00:15:40.280 what do you replace it with? And I think Dawkins, I think this is Dawkins. If it wasn't him, I
00:15:44.580 apologize, Dawkins, but he would say something like, what do you replace a tumor with when you
00:15:49.360 remove it from, you know, a body, you know, just sort of saying, you know, you don't need to replace
00:15:54.040 with anything. We just live our lives and read books and poetry and, uh, you know, be in awe at the
00:15:59.720 stars and that type of thing. Um, I think that's probably fundamentally wrong and that we do need
00:16:04.280 to actually put something in its place and advance, uh, a sort of a set of morals and values that we
00:16:10.780 can, um, abide, abide by that are rooted in evidence and reason, um, that create meaning in
00:16:18.380 our lives. I don't know exactly how that would look, but I think that it's possible. And I think
00:16:23.240 that is something that needs to be, uh, really focused on among people who are, uh, it's sort of
00:16:28.660 non-believers because otherwise, you know, that vacuum will be filled by things that 0.99
00:16:33.240 well, like woke ideology, which is they're denying as a religion, but has all of the, uh, all the,
00:16:38.980 the hallmarks of being one without any of the forgiveness.
00:16:43.080 Yeah. I think the, I think the issue with that, well, I agree with you. I see what you're saying
00:16:47.440 about, okay, we can agree on a certain set of values, a certain set of principles that we're going
00:16:51.540 to uphold free speech, things like that, that sex is real and that we, it's kind of a secondary
00:16:56.920 debate in your mind about like, where do these come from? Why do we believe these things? Like,
00:17:02.940 I think it's interesting that you mentioned meaning. Why do they give human beings meaning?
00:17:07.940 Why is it even important to have meaning? Like what is meaning? All of these things, of course,
00:17:11.820 can't be answered by biology. Beauty can't be answered by biology. Morality can't even be answered
00:17:17.400 exclusively by evolution. There is just such a lack of substance for the why of anything. Like the why,
00:17:24.180 yes, there's biology. Yes, we can agree on the facts, but why and from where does something come?
00:17:30.140 Like without being able to answer that, you do get what is in my opinion, like very grotesque moral
00:17:35.620 conclusions because human beings don't really have any innate value. According to atheism, we aren't,
00:17:41.500 we can't be anything other than clumps of cells and balls of matter. And so it's hard for me to
00:17:45.960 understand like how I would really come together with an atheist and say, yes, this is our set of
00:17:52.000 values. Like what even is a value if not something that's derived from like a set of principles that's
00:18:01.080 transcendent? And so, yeah, I think that's probably why. I think that's probably why they said what
00:18:06.080 they said and why it's hard for a lot of Christian conservatives on the right to be like, yes, you
00:18:11.780 know, atheism, because we're not coming from the same place. Usually we don't come to the same
00:18:16.560 conclusions either, don't you think? Yeah, I totally agree that often we don't arrive at the
00:18:23.340 same conclusions. And I would also agree that, you know, there are, there's going to be a wide
00:18:28.500 range of conclusions that atheists come to that are going to be at odds with Christians. But then
00:18:33.080 I would say that there's also a lot of conclusions that atheists would come to that are at a wide
00:18:38.920 disagreement with other atheists. And I think there's a lot of conclusions that Christians would 0.96
00:18:43.140 come to that are at odds with a lot of Christians as well. I think there's aspects of the Bible,
00:18:49.720 I would say that a lot of Christians tend to ignore that are, you know, that are, that are bad,
00:18:55.600 you know, stoning people for homosexuality or trying to take you away from your gods or whatever,
00:19:01.240 things like that. There's, there's a lot of things that are, that are glanced over. And I think
00:19:05.840 they're glanced over because there's been sort of a, a give and take with secularism that is sort of
00:19:11.940 sort of attenuated a lot of some of the more extremes that have come from Christianity and
00:19:19.360 Judaism. And it's sort of, I think it is sort of this, this give and take that we have where the,
00:19:24.440 the ideas that a lot of atheists and a lot of Christians tend to agree on,
00:19:29.280 we agree on them because they sort of point at something that is, that is sort of shared by our
00:19:34.860 common humanity rather than our common belief system. But then, yeah, there's going to be,
00:19:39.680 I just want to emphasize the disagreement within and between all of these worldviews and on certain
00:19:46.480 important questions as well. I see what you mean. I mean, certainly there's plenty of like deep
00:19:50.680 disagreements within people who identify as Christian and who may all say that we believe
00:19:56.620 in the Bible, but different interpretations and things like that. And so I definitely take your point.
00:20:00.920 Before we end, I am, I am curious. Like I always ask atheists this, like, is there really, 0.93
00:20:20.720 is there really a good and an evil? Like where, where does morality come from according to the
00:20:27.240 atheists? Cause you do, you, you have like a moral compass. You believe that there is a right and a
00:20:31.080 wrong beyond biology. Like you believe that it's wrong for a man to compete against a woman. You
00:20:36.080 use the word unfair. What does unfair even mean? Like, where does that come from? Why is it wrong
00:20:40.020 for the person who is most powerful to just beat out everyone else? So like, what would be your answer
00:20:44.920 to that? Mine would be a biblical answer. What's your answer for like, what is injustice? What is
00:20:50.420 unfairness? How do we determine that? Yeah, it's an incredibly complicated question. You know, I think
00:20:57.380 our morality is the product of evolution. I think that we have sort of these moral sentiments that
00:21:04.620 we've had that are useful in different contexts. And we're constantly trying to sort of figure out
00:21:11.140 what they are and how they, how they shape our view of, of, of right and wrong. I think there are
00:21:17.960 objective standards we can look at in the world about, you know, looking at ourselves and what
00:21:23.700 causes suffering in us and extrapolating that to other people and saying, well, you know, I wouldn't
00:21:29.380 want to be, uh, you know, tortured. So, you know, committing torture on someone else is, is, is not good
00:21:36.600 because it's not something that I would want to have done to myself. I think you can recapitulate a lot
00:21:41.060 of, uh, sort of Christian rules, like the golden rule from, from secular principles. But I, I ultimately,
00:21:47.960 you know, I don't tend to look in the world in terms of, of good and evil. I can see where people
00:21:53.520 get those ideas and I can see really bad things that I think are happening where I would say,
00:22:01.440 you know, that a Christian might call evil. And I would say, this is just a deeply disturbed human 1.00
00:22:05.840 being who has no, uh, uh, sense of, of suffering in others. They, they have no empathy, no sympathy.
00:22:12.960 Um, and explain it in terms of just sort of, you know, the way I would look at a great white shark
00:22:19.480 or a grizzly bear who's attacking someone where there's something wrong with their brain. It's
00:22:23.700 causing them to wreak havoc on society and there's, they should therefore be jailed, uh, because they,
00:22:28.600 they do that. I think there's some, there could, there's some negative aspects of looking at the
00:22:36.100 world, I think in terms of, of good and evil, because I think that that can contribute to a lot of
00:22:42.580 tribalism of, you know, if you're just going to mark certain people as either just evil,
00:22:48.020 these people are just good. That, that sort of black and white thinking, I think can, 0.97
00:22:51.920 can lead to a lot of atrocities being committed where it's just like, these people are just
00:22:56.000 irredeemably evil. Um, that's all we need to, you know, stop our investigation there. Um, whereas I
00:23:02.740 think, you know, a more nuanced take would be to look at people who are to say that a lot of the
00:23:07.680 battles we're doing is sort of a battle between good and good to a lot of, a lot, uh, to, to a
00:23:13.380 large degree where people who are just confused about what the best outcomes are being misled by
00:23:18.200 people. Um, again, it's, it's enormously complicated. I don't have a very elevator pitch for you of, of,
00:23:26.160 of, you know, the, the complete basis of our morality, but, uh, it's, it's definitely something
00:23:31.980 that can be negotiated and talked about. And I think it's kind of doing that secular moral philosophy
00:23:38.260 is an important part of, uh, of, of being a good person, you know, trying to justify, uh, the reasons
00:23:44.740 that you have for doing things and not doing things. Hmm. It's so interesting. Yeah. I appreciate,
00:23:50.180 I appreciate you sharing that. Um, it, you know, like atheists, I, I, I hear you use like a lot of 1.00
00:23:57.160 moral language, empathy, sympathy, good person, things like that, treat other people how you want
00:24:04.160 to be treated. I don't know that there is necessarily an evolutionary answer for that.
00:24:09.680 Um, of course I would say that it's been written on our hearts as people who are made in the image
00:24:14.760 of God is that we want justice. Like we inherently see something wrong when the big guy is picking on
00:24:19.800 the little guy. Of course you could argue that evolution has been the big guy picking on the
00:24:24.060 little guy. And that's why those of us who are here are here. And yet we don't like that when
00:24:28.540 we see that today, like there are laws against that kind of thing. Like we don't like that kind
00:24:32.620 of victimization. I would say that it's because we're created by that. And I know that atheists 1.00
00:24:38.140 really try to grapple with, you know, living a good life and wanting to be moral, not realizing
00:24:42.100 that they've adopted all of their morality, I think from Christianity. But I, like, I would just,
00:24:47.060 just to say just for the people listening is that Christianity does not believe that anyone is
00:24:51.860 irredeemably evil or that there are people over here who are always good, people over here who
00:24:57.060 are always bad. Maybe there are people who purport to believe that, but that's not what Christianity
00:25:01.260 teaches. We believe that everyone is evil, actually. Like everyone is sinful. Everyone is in need of a
00:25:08.360 savior, that the only one that is perfectly good, that is God. And that's why we believe in Christ.
00:25:13.000 We believe in the ultimate sacrifice who paid for our imperfections, who paid for our sins,
00:25:17.440 who reconciled us to a holy God, who made us righteous and made us holy. And like Christians
00:25:22.980 should have the utmost humility because we believe that we understand just how hopeless and just how
00:25:28.520 fallen all of us are. And that everyone, like God can redeem absolutely anyone, I should say,
00:25:35.140 through the blood of Christ. That's what Christians believe. Not that any one group is evil over the
00:25:40.460 other. And then I would also say, but we do believe in a standard. We believe that there is evil and that
00:25:45.960 there is wrong and that there is good. That stealing bread from the bakery is wrong. Maybe it doesn't
00:25:53.280 hurt anyone. Like maybe that bakery is fine, but it is wrong because there is a moral law that is
00:25:58.500 written on our hearts. And that's why laws exist. If there was no like greater moral law, then anarchy
00:26:04.640 would be completely justified. I think it would just be survival of the fittest. So that's my take on it.
00:26:10.080 Um, but I appreciate the fact that we can link arms on something as important as sex. I'm very,
00:26:16.340 I'm very thankful for you that you are like tackling this from the biological perspective.
00:26:21.260 For some people, that's the only perspective that they're willing to hear. And you're speaking up
00:26:25.040 about it, even at great cost to you. So I really appreciate that.
00:26:29.220 Well, thank you so much. I appreciate what you're doing too. And I enjoy having these conversations,
00:26:33.480 you know, part of me being sort of excommunicated from the left has got me a lot closer
00:26:37.840 to people who are on the right and people I would never have had sort of these conversations with.
00:26:43.220 Um, and it's, it's been an incredibly humanizing experience, uh, just talking to a lot of people
00:26:46.940 and connecting in ways that I, uh, never thought I could before. So thank you. And I include this
00:26:51.560 conversation as part of that as well. So thank you so much. Definitely. Well, thank you so much,
00:26:55.800 Dr. Wright. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on. Thank you.
00:27:07.840 Hey, Related Bells and Related Bros. If you could please leave us a five-star review wherever you
00:27:18.220 listen to Relatable, that would mean so much to us. And it really does help the show. Also,
00:27:23.680 if you haven't subscribed to our YouTube channel, please do. Thanks.