Ep 869 ｜ Does the Right Need More Atheism？ ｜ Dr. Colin Wright (Part Two)
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Summary
In part two of our conversation with evolutionary biologist Dr. Colin Wright, we discuss morality and rights from a Christian and Atheist perspective. Dr. Wright explains the differences between the worldview of the two, and how they can work together.
Transcript
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From where do morality and rights come from the atheist perspective? That's what I'm trying to
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get at today with my guest, evolutionary biologist, Dr. Colin Wright. This is the second part of our
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two-part conversation. We'll also be discussing, can the Christian right and atheists link arms
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when we can't really agree on where our values are actually derived? I think you're going to
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get a lot out of this. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to
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GoodRanchers.com. Use code Allie at checkout. That's GoodRanchers.com, code Allie.
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So this part of the conversation is going to kind of transition us into the more
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discussing worldview, Christianity versus atheism. And I'll kind of explain the bridge that I at
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least see in my mind. But why can't we say, okay, sex is fixed. Fine. You know better than I do. But
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gender is fluid. And there is such thing as a way to identify according to how you feel,
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according to how you think. And that really is a spectrum. That really is fluid. Even if you're
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biologically male or female, we should be able to be, to present as the opposite sex and live as the
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opposite sex, because that is truly how we feel. So why does physical reality matter more than how
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someone says they sincerely feel in their heart and mind?
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Yeah. So I think that sex, you know, it matters, but it really only matters in certain contexts.
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Like, I don't think we should consider someone sex if we're trying to decide whether they should get a
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promotion, whether we're going to hire them. You know, there's, there's very few aspects in society,
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I think, where we need to really be vetting people based on their biological sex. It's only
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in certain areas like sports and changing rooms, who prisons you go to, you know, all the things that
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are currently being debated in society right now. Those are the areas where, you know, it's really
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important for reasons of safety or fairness. So most contexts, yes, sex probably shouldn't matter.
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And I think that a lot of what, well, what a lot of people are referring to as gender identity
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is really just a, there's your self-assessed position along some imaginary spectrum of masculine
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or feminine stereotypes. So most people sort of can conceive of themselves as encompassing varying
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degrees of stereotypical masculinity or femininity. This isn't really a gender identity. This is just sort
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of recognizing facts about yourself regarding just the way that you feel. You know, there are some
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women who are very masculine. There are some men who are naturally very feminine. This doesn't mean
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they're born in the wrong body. This doesn't mean they have a gender identity of a female. If you happen
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to be male, this just means that you're gender nonconforming. I mean, part of evolutionary biology is
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that we have variation within and between categories in almost every category in nature. It's natural for
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men to be effeminate. It's natural for females to be masculine to some degree, even if it's not,
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you know, typical for their sex. You know, sex atypical, atypicality is a thing. This shouldn't
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be shunned. I think if somebody wants to express themselves in more feminine ways than they're a boy or
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a man, then they should, you know, by and large, be able to express themselves like this. But we need
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to be able to keep this this line between, you know, how you choose to express yourself and the
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way that you feel internally and want to wear clothes and makeup to whatever degree with your
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actual biological sex and where in the areas where that that matters, because your gender identity
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doesn't really matter. I think in any other context, I think most people should just be,
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you know, yeah, you can be a masculine woman or a feminine boy. That's that's fine. I don't
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see anything wrong with that. I think that's just part of natural human variation that we should
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all sort of just get over. You know, it's a real thing. But identity, when it comes to pronouns,
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when it comes to spaces, when it comes to athletic teams, you believe, as I do,
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should be in accordance with someone's sex. Absolutely. Yeah. Do you believe I'm curious,
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like, do you believe in using someone's preferred pronouns if you know that they're really the opposite
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sex? So no, I only make an exception for people who are like my my close friends who identify as
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trans and who I know aren't actually delusional about their biological sex. So I'm friends with
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Buck Angel, for instance. Buck Angel is the first who's identifies as a trans man, a biological female.
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Buck is the first person to tell everyone that they're biologically female. They just present
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as masculine because it helps them, you know, feel better and move through the world appearing this
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way. So I refer to Buck with he him pronouns, partly because Buck honestly just looks like a man. So it's
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not difficult to do. And Buck's my my good friend. And I know that I'm not participating in a delusion
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with Buck because Buck is not delusional. I won't use opposite sex pronouns for children ever. I won't
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use it, you know, for people I don't know. I'll just use their name, things like that. But I do have
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sort of a a personal friend exception, so long as I know that they're not personally delusional,
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I wonder also if you see a difference between so someone like Buck, who is a a female definitely
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looks male. So I agree with you on that. But we're not really concerned. I think most people
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aren't really concerned with like the safety and fairness aspect of a female who tries to present
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as a male, you know, going into the men's bathroom or going, you know, trying to compete against men,
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even though I believe that to be morally wrong to try to gender bend and all of these things like
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we're not as concerned about men's rights being violated by these women who want to identify as
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men. So I think it's there's like a little less sympathy, it seems. I mean, even from me,
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a little less sympathy for even someone who is like, you know what, I know I'm biologically male.
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If they say I know I'm biologically male, but I still want to present as a woman. And so I am
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going to go into your bathroom, like I am going to go into your locker room, I am going to be in
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your spaces. Because I mean, it's kind of like Caitlyn Jenner, who I think acknowledges the reality of
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male and female and even the distinctions and, and male female sports, but still considers himself
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fully a woman and would enter women's spaces like I that is still participating in a delusion,
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even if they understand their sex. It's like, well, you're still trying to categorize yourself
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as something that you're not. And I don't want a man in my spaces.
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Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. I mean, I would not support any of, you know, any women, or sorry,
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any of my friends who identify as trans women from entering female spaces, I definitely do not support.
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Um, yeah, going into female spaces, if they're male. So yeah, I totally agree there.
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I want to transition to a conversation about atheism versus Christianity. And the reason why I ask
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why, like, why is sex more important than how someone identifies? And I think that you've explained
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it very well from a scientific perspective, that identities don't compete, bodies compete. There are
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contexts in which, like, the body is just important, and the identity really, the stated identity really
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doesn't matter. But still, I understand from someone's perspective who kind of how, in my
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language, I would say, sees themselves as God. So sees themselves as the definer and the arbiter of all
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things. If they say, I really am a woman because what I feel on the inside is authenticity, is authentic
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to who I am. And I get to determine my own truth. I get to determine my own reality. And of course,
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I am going to go into these spaces that align with how I really, truly feel. And this body is just kind
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of a clump of cells. It's just kind of a bunch of matter. And I get to dress it up and call it whatever
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I want to, because who I really am is how I feel on the inside. Like, to me, that is an anti-Christian
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belief that I can understand from someone who is godless, who believes that biology can kind of be
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dictated by, or, like, reality can be dictated by how we feel. And so that is, like, that's where I'm
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coming from. At the end of the day, the reason why biology matters, the reason why sex matters is
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because there is someone who says so. An authority that's higher than me, that's higher than you,
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that's higher than biology, who says he created us male and female. So it doesn't matter really how you
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feel. From your perspective, obviously, you're coming from an evolutionary perspective. You
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don't believe in any kind of intelligent designer. And you've said before, you actually think atheism
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is an important aspect of this debate, correct?
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I think it's an important aspect of a lot of debates. And, you know, I wouldn't know if it's,
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I wouldn't say it's an important aspect of this specific debate. I tend to be closer to the,
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you know, my Christian friends, because they at least tend to acknowledge the reality of biological
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sex. We might disagree on how the sexes were created and how we got to the position that we
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are. But we agree on the facts and the shared reality that we're staring at, to that degree.
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You know, whereas when I talk to people who are sort of more on the woke side of things,
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you know, they don't even think there's a shared reality. They think the reality is constructed
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through language, et cetera, et cetera. So I have way more in common with my Christian friends who
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believe that, you know, God created man and woman, and that's the end of it than I do with the people
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who don't even think truth is a real thing to be, that we're looking at. We can't even look at the
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same thing and agree that we're looking at the same thing.
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Right. And you responded recently to an interview, I think it was between Charlie Kirk and Tucker Carlson.
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And Tucker said, you know, he just doesn't have any tolerance anymore for atheism. He said,
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my tolerance for atheism has really dwindled to nothing. And, or I guess maybe this is Charlie
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Kirk actually saying this, but the idea that people who are completely certain as a matter of
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religious faith, that there's no God, I just find it hilarious and so childish that I can't take
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it seriously. I can't tell who is actually saying what it was. Okay. Tucker. Yeah. It kind of sounds
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like Tucker now that I'm reading it. Um, so, and you responded to this saying, you know what,
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the right needs more atheism. Like you don't need to alienate us is kind of what you said. We already
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feel in large part politically homeless. So what do you mean by you think kind of the right actually
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needs more atheism than it has right now? Yeah. So what I don't mean is that I think
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the people on the right or Christians need to convert to atheism and denounce their God. You know,
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um, uh, I'm an atheist. I lack the belief in a God and, you know, that's a position I'm willing
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to defend in conversations. And I think, I think it's true, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I
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want everyone who were on the right to then just, you know, convert and that they need to
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or any degree or anything like that. Um, what I mean is that I think that there are a lot of
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atheists who are disaffected from the left because I used to be part of the new atheist movement,
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if you want to call it that, um, that was taken over by a lot of the woke ideology. It was kind of
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a canary in the coal mine for a lot of the, the takeover of institutions that we're seeing right now.
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Atheism was one of the first to fall to this ideology and me and a lot of other people who
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were, uh, in the movement, including a lot of prominent figures like Richard Dawkins and Steven
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Pinker, you know, they're very much opposed to that woke takeover, um, that happened to that
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organization. So a lot of us feel politically homeless and we feel more affinity to the values
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that we see that are over on the right, that are shared by many Christians, even though if we're
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not Christian ourselves. So I guess what my plea, when I say that the right needs more atheism means
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that they need to, I think, make their tent large enough where what they're organizing around isn't
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necessarily saying that you need to believe in the source of, of these values that we have,
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that we need to share the same ideas of where these values came from, but rather we should be
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focusing on, well, first and foremost, do we have shared values? So if we just have a values first
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requirement to join this coalition, then I think we can then later debate about where these came from,
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whether that's important. I think that's actually secondary to whether or not we agree
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on, uh, just sort of some core principle values related to free speech, um, you know, uh, sort of
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freedom, the limits of certain governments, you know, these are the things that I think matter most,
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um, in terms of morality and connecting with people, then, you know, was this the result of
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evolution or was this, you know, done by divine creator? So, um, so yeah, I think that, I hope that
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makes sense. This is, uh, we need to have a values first approach because I find myself having more
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affinity to the values of, of the right than I do with a lot of people on, on the left right now.
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Do you feel that atheism is like a good antidote to what has become basically a woke religion on the left?
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I don't think atheism in itself is really, um, it's, it's not a moral code. So it's, it's just
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sort of in the way I conceive of atheism, it is a, a lack of belief in a God or a gods. And then there
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are other sort of moral worldviews and frameworks that you need to take on to give yourself, to give
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your life, uh, meaning for instance. Um, I think that it's probably true that we can peg a lot of the,
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um, disillusionment, a lot of the radicalism, a lot of this embracing of, of woke ideology with
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sort of a decrease in religiosity. Um, but that doesn't mean I think that atheism is therefore
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needs to be equated with being woke or it's a necessary consequence. Cause there's a lot of
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atheists who, who didn't go that direction. Um, I think a major mishap of new atheism, and I'll
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actually, I'll, I'll blame Dawkins for some of this too, because I remember agreeing with Dawkins
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before when he would sit, he would be asked a question like, well, when you get rid of religion,
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what do you replace it with? And I think Dawkins, I think this is Dawkins. If it wasn't him, I
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apologize, Dawkins, but he would say something like, what do you replace a tumor with when you
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remove it from, you know, a body, you know, just sort of saying, you know, you don't need to replace
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with anything. We just live our lives and read books and poetry and, uh, you know, be in awe at the
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stars and that type of thing. Um, I think that's probably fundamentally wrong and that we do need
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to actually put something in its place and advance, uh, a sort of a set of morals and values that we
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can, um, abide, abide by that are rooted in evidence and reason, um, that create meaning in
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our lives. I don't know exactly how that would look, but I think that it's possible. And I think
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that is something that needs to be, uh, really focused on among people who are, uh, it's sort of
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non-believers because otherwise, you know, that vacuum will be filled by things that
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well, like woke ideology, which is they're denying as a religion, but has all of the, uh, all the,
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the hallmarks of being one without any of the forgiveness.
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Yeah. I think the, I think the issue with that, well, I agree with you. I see what you're saying
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about, okay, we can agree on a certain set of values, a certain set of principles that we're going
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to uphold free speech, things like that, that sex is real and that we, it's kind of a secondary
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debate in your mind about like, where do these come from? Why do we believe these things? Like,
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I think it's interesting that you mentioned meaning. Why do they give human beings meaning?
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Why is it even important to have meaning? Like what is meaning? All of these things, of course,
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can't be answered by biology. Beauty can't be answered by biology. Morality can't even be answered
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exclusively by evolution. There is just such a lack of substance for the why of anything. Like the why,
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yes, there's biology. Yes, we can agree on the facts, but why and from where does something come?
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Like without being able to answer that, you do get what is in my opinion, like very grotesque moral
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conclusions because human beings don't really have any innate value. According to atheism, we aren't,
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we can't be anything other than clumps of cells and balls of matter. And so it's hard for me to
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understand like how I would really come together with an atheist and say, yes, this is our set of
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values. Like what even is a value if not something that's derived from like a set of principles that's
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transcendent? And so, yeah, I think that's probably why. I think that's probably why they said what
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they said and why it's hard for a lot of Christian conservatives on the right to be like, yes, you
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know, atheism, because we're not coming from the same place. Usually we don't come to the same
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conclusions either, don't you think? Yeah, I totally agree that often we don't arrive at the
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same conclusions. And I would also agree that, you know, there are, there's going to be a wide
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range of conclusions that atheists come to that are going to be at odds with Christians. But then
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I would say that there's also a lot of conclusions that atheists would come to that are at a wide
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disagreement with other atheists. And I think there's a lot of conclusions that Christians would
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come to that are at odds with a lot of Christians as well. I think there's aspects of the Bible,
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I would say that a lot of Christians tend to ignore that are, you know, that are, that are bad,
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you know, stoning people for homosexuality or trying to take you away from your gods or whatever,
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things like that. There's, there's a lot of things that are, that are glanced over. And I think
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they're glanced over because there's been sort of a, a give and take with secularism that is sort of
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sort of attenuated a lot of some of the more extremes that have come from Christianity and
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Judaism. And it's sort of, I think it is sort of this, this give and take that we have where the,
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the ideas that a lot of atheists and a lot of Christians tend to agree on,
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we agree on them because they sort of point at something that is, that is sort of shared by our
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common humanity rather than our common belief system. But then, yeah, there's going to be,
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I just want to emphasize the disagreement within and between all of these worldviews and on certain
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important questions as well. I see what you mean. I mean, certainly there's plenty of like deep
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disagreements within people who identify as Christian and who may all say that we believe
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in the Bible, but different interpretations and things like that. And so I definitely take your point.
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Before we end, I am, I am curious. Like I always ask atheists this, like, is there really,
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is there really a good and an evil? Like where, where does morality come from according to the
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atheists? Cause you do, you, you have like a moral compass. You believe that there is a right and a
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wrong beyond biology. Like you believe that it's wrong for a man to compete against a woman. You
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use the word unfair. What does unfair even mean? Like, where does that come from? Why is it wrong
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for the person who is most powerful to just beat out everyone else? So like, what would be your answer
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to that? Mine would be a biblical answer. What's your answer for like, what is injustice? What is
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unfairness? How do we determine that? Yeah, it's an incredibly complicated question. You know, I think
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our morality is the product of evolution. I think that we have sort of these moral sentiments that
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we've had that are useful in different contexts. And we're constantly trying to sort of figure out
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what they are and how they, how they shape our view of, of, of right and wrong. I think there are
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objective standards we can look at in the world about, you know, looking at ourselves and what
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causes suffering in us and extrapolating that to other people and saying, well, you know, I wouldn't
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want to be, uh, you know, tortured. So, you know, committing torture on someone else is, is, is not good
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because it's not something that I would want to have done to myself. I think you can recapitulate a lot
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of, uh, sort of Christian rules, like the golden rule from, from secular principles. But I, I ultimately,
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you know, I don't tend to look in the world in terms of, of good and evil. I can see where people
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get those ideas and I can see really bad things that I think are happening where I would say,
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you know, that a Christian might call evil. And I would say, this is just a deeply disturbed human
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being who has no, uh, uh, sense of, of suffering in others. They, they have no empathy, no sympathy.
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Um, and explain it in terms of just sort of, you know, the way I would look at a great white shark
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or a grizzly bear who's attacking someone where there's something wrong with their brain. It's
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causing them to wreak havoc on society and there's, they should therefore be jailed, uh, because they,
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they do that. I think there's some, there could, there's some negative aspects of looking at the
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world, I think in terms of, of good and evil, because I think that that can contribute to a lot of
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tribalism of, you know, if you're just going to mark certain people as either just evil,
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these people are just good. That, that sort of black and white thinking, I think can,
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can lead to a lot of atrocities being committed where it's just like, these people are just
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irredeemably evil. Um, that's all we need to, you know, stop our investigation there. Um, whereas I
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think, you know, a more nuanced take would be to look at people who are to say that a lot of the
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battles we're doing is sort of a battle between good and good to a lot of, a lot, uh, to, to a
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large degree where people who are just confused about what the best outcomes are being misled by
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people. Um, again, it's, it's enormously complicated. I don't have a very elevator pitch for you of, of,
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of, you know, the, the complete basis of our morality, but, uh, it's, it's definitely something
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that can be negotiated and talked about. And I think it's kind of doing that secular moral philosophy
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is an important part of, uh, of, of being a good person, you know, trying to justify, uh, the reasons
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that you have for doing things and not doing things. Hmm. It's so interesting. Yeah. I appreciate,
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I appreciate you sharing that. Um, it, you know, like atheists, I, I, I hear you use like a lot of
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moral language, empathy, sympathy, good person, things like that, treat other people how you want
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to be treated. I don't know that there is necessarily an evolutionary answer for that.
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Um, of course I would say that it's been written on our hearts as people who are made in the image
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of God is that we want justice. Like we inherently see something wrong when the big guy is picking on
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the little guy. Of course you could argue that evolution has been the big guy picking on the
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little guy. And that's why those of us who are here are here. And yet we don't like that when
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we see that today, like there are laws against that kind of thing. Like we don't like that kind
00:24:32.620
of victimization. I would say that it's because we're created by that. And I know that atheists
00:24:38.140
really try to grapple with, you know, living a good life and wanting to be moral, not realizing
00:24:42.100
that they've adopted all of their morality, I think from Christianity. But I, like, I would just,
00:24:47.060
just to say just for the people listening is that Christianity does not believe that anyone is
00:24:51.860
irredeemably evil or that there are people over here who are always good, people over here who
00:24:57.060
are always bad. Maybe there are people who purport to believe that, but that's not what Christianity
00:25:01.260
teaches. We believe that everyone is evil, actually. Like everyone is sinful. Everyone is in need of a
00:25:08.360
savior, that the only one that is perfectly good, that is God. And that's why we believe in Christ.
00:25:13.000
We believe in the ultimate sacrifice who paid for our imperfections, who paid for our sins,
00:25:17.440
who reconciled us to a holy God, who made us righteous and made us holy. And like Christians
00:25:22.980
should have the utmost humility because we believe that we understand just how hopeless and just how
00:25:28.520
fallen all of us are. And that everyone, like God can redeem absolutely anyone, I should say,
00:25:35.140
through the blood of Christ. That's what Christians believe. Not that any one group is evil over the
00:25:40.460
other. And then I would also say, but we do believe in a standard. We believe that there is evil and that
00:25:45.960
there is wrong and that there is good. That stealing bread from the bakery is wrong. Maybe it doesn't
00:25:53.280
hurt anyone. Like maybe that bakery is fine, but it is wrong because there is a moral law that is
00:25:58.500
written on our hearts. And that's why laws exist. If there was no like greater moral law, then anarchy
00:26:04.640
would be completely justified. I think it would just be survival of the fittest. So that's my take on it.
00:26:10.080
Um, but I appreciate the fact that we can link arms on something as important as sex. I'm very,
00:26:16.340
I'm very thankful for you that you are like tackling this from the biological perspective.
00:26:21.260
For some people, that's the only perspective that they're willing to hear. And you're speaking up
00:26:25.040
about it, even at great cost to you. So I really appreciate that.
00:26:29.220
Well, thank you so much. I appreciate what you're doing too. And I enjoy having these conversations,
00:26:33.480
you know, part of me being sort of excommunicated from the left has got me a lot closer
00:26:37.840
to people who are on the right and people I would never have had sort of these conversations with.
00:26:43.220
Um, and it's, it's been an incredibly humanizing experience, uh, just talking to a lot of people
00:26:46.940
and connecting in ways that I, uh, never thought I could before. So thank you. And I include this
00:26:51.560
conversation as part of that as well. So thank you so much. Definitely. Well, thank you so much,
00:26:55.800
Dr. Wright. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on. Thank you.
00:27:07.840
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00:27:18.220
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