Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - September 14, 2023


Ep 873 ｜ Is 'Emotional Abuse' Cause for Divorce？ ｜ Guest： June Hunt


Episode Stats

Length

31 minutes

Words per Minute

117.40355

Word Count

3,668

Sentence Count

336

Misogynist Sentences

5

Hate Speech Sentences

3


Summary

Author, speaker, and founder of Hope For The Heart, June Hunt, joins us for part two of this two-part conversation. In this episode, we talk about forgiveness, accountability, and how to balance justice and accountability with forgiveness and biblical reconciliation.


Transcript

00:00:01.000 How do we forgive those who have betrayed us, those who have hurt us, without being
00:00:07.360 a doormat?
00:00:08.120 How do we balance justice and accountability with forgiveness and biblical reconciliation?
00:00:16.160 Author, speaker, founder of Hope for the Heart, a biblical counseling ministry, June Hunt
00:00:21.180 is with us today for part two of this two-part conversation.
00:00:25.260 Go back, listen to yesterday's episode to listen to her amazing testimony.
00:00:29.580 If you haven't done that already, also at the end of the episode, you are going to get
00:00:33.620 a treat.
00:00:34.160 Miss June is going to play us this beautiful song she's going to play on her guitar and
00:00:39.940 sing for us.
00:00:40.940 Such an encouraging and just a heartwarming episode, even as we talk about things that
00:00:46.260 are really difficult, like domestic violence and things like physical and emotional abuse,
00:00:51.020 but so crucial for Christians to know biblical answers to questions about these very tough
00:00:57.140 and sensitive subjects and to find our comfort and solace in Christ.
00:01:01.100 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
00:01:03.680 Go to GoodRanchers.com.
00:01:04.920 Use code Allie at checkout.
00:01:06.080 That's GoodRanchers.com.
00:01:07.240 Code Allie.
00:01:07.820 When I began to see, okay, I have held on to unforgiveness, I think the hardest part
00:01:32.300 for me was I had all these thoughts of what forgiveness is, but it's not.
00:01:40.560 Like, I thought it was letting somebody off a hook.
00:01:47.380 And, again, logically, that did not make sense to me.
00:01:55.520 So, I remember one time I did a conference on unforgiveness, and I asked all these people,
00:02:04.960 I said, what do you think forgiveness means?
00:02:07.120 That was my first question.
00:02:08.280 One of the first answers was, it means being a doormat.
00:02:17.560 Well, if that's the case, Jesus would have been the biggest doormat in the world,
00:02:23.120 because when he was being crucified on the cross,
00:02:29.420 his crucifiers did not come to him and say, oh, we're so sorry,
00:02:34.320 we really shouldn't be doing this to you.
00:02:36.440 No, they were laughing at him and mocking him.
00:02:41.560 So, for him to say, Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.
00:02:49.160 He exhibited a forgiveness that was not, but to say he's being a doormat?
00:02:58.400 No, that's not being a doormat.
00:03:02.160 Well, another person said it means being a weak martyr.
00:03:08.460 And I thought, a weak martyr?
00:03:10.560 No, it's being strong enough to be Christ-like.
00:03:14.820 So, there are all these things that I began to be aware of that I had thought and others had thought.
00:03:22.580 Some people say, well, I don't feel like it.
00:03:25.280 Well, forgiveness is not a feeling.
00:03:26.960 It's a choice.
00:03:29.760 It's an act of the will.
00:03:31.100 And I think the most important is to grasp that it's like here is a meat hook and it can hold a lot.
00:03:46.320 Like if I were to put it around me, now typically I put it around somebody else, not me.
00:03:51.860 I do it this way and then I have a burlap bag.
00:03:57.000 Yes.
00:03:57.520 And I put the burlap bag on the meat hook and it hangs because I've asked how many of you know what it's like where you cannot forgive someone.
00:04:10.900 And that would have been me at one time.
00:04:15.200 And I'm looking and the other night I did this and I do this at prisons, except they won't let me take in a meat hook in a prison.
00:04:29.640 But I do this and what I say is forgiveness is not letting a person off the hook.
00:04:41.820 And by the way, when I'm asking someone with me the other night, it was somebody said,
00:04:49.840 My husband allowed my daughter to die and then took my other child and he had money.
00:04:59.020 I did not have money and I lost custody of my little boy and she was crushed, you know, weeping and these things that this man had done.
00:05:10.300 And so every time she said anything, I would put a rock, these are boulders of bitterness.
00:05:24.260 They're big boulders of big bitterness and rocks of resentment.
00:05:29.140 And it got so heavy, she said, Oh, this is really heavy.
00:05:32.700 And I said, Well, God did not create you to carry that weight.
00:05:37.020 So you have a choice.
00:05:38.320 You can take that person, your former husband, off of your hook, but you're not letting him off the hook.
00:05:50.980 You're putting him on to God's hook.
00:05:54.080 You take him off of your hook, putting him on to God's hook.
00:05:59.280 He says, It is mine to avenge.
00:06:02.240 I will repay.
00:06:04.900 So you're not letting him off the hook.
00:06:06.920 That was my biggest objection to forgiveness.
00:06:12.320 And I saw I was wrong.
00:06:14.660 We don't let them off the hook.
00:06:16.400 We let them take him off of our hook.
00:06:18.740 So the battle is not with us.
00:06:21.680 But if we put them, give all the pain to the Lord to release all that pain into God's hands.
00:06:28.760 And then we literally allow the Lord to deal with that person, because now you're going to release that person to God.
00:06:39.360 And he says, It's mine to avenge.
00:06:42.420 I will repay.
00:06:43.240 So now God will be dealing with that person, because he's not biting you.
00:06:49.840 He can still be cruel.
00:06:51.500 The other person, he or she, can be cruel.
00:06:54.420 But we need to continue to release that pain to the Lord and to release the person to the Lord.
00:07:03.880 What is the difference between forgiving someone, kind of releasing yourself of these boulders of bitterness and rocks of resentment, and unhealthily tolerating abuse?
00:07:29.160 So if a woman is in a situation where she's being physically or, you know, emotionally abused, she wants to forgive.
00:07:37.440 But at the same time, that doesn't necessarily mean tolerating the treatment that you're receiving, correct?
00:07:44.520 Well, first of all, the Bible is very clear about wrong treatment.
00:07:50.080 Like, for example, the Bible is very explicit.
00:07:59.460 Do not make friends with a hot-tempered man.
00:08:02.740 Do not associate with one easily angered.
00:08:07.220 So that person has a biblical right to move out of harm's way.
00:08:11.380 If we read, do not associate with one easily angered, there is no reason that is justifiable to be in an angry situation.
00:08:28.580 We're told bad company corrupts good character.
00:08:31.600 The Bible says, and I think this is a very interesting scripture.
00:08:38.800 Proverbs 19.19 says, do not make friends with the, let's see, sorry, 19.19.
00:08:48.340 Okay, I'll give the reference to the one I mentioned a moment ago.
00:08:53.680 Proverbs 22.24 is do not make friends with the hot-tempered man.
00:08:57.900 Do not associate with one easily angered.
00:09:01.580 Again, that's Proverbs 22.24.
00:09:05.120 And then Proverbs 19.19 says, a hot-tempered man must pay the penalty.
00:09:12.020 Listen to this.
00:09:12.980 Must pay the penalty.
00:09:14.840 If you rescue him, you'll have to do it again.
00:09:18.660 And it'll be a cycle.
00:09:20.340 And there's a classic cycle of abuse.
00:09:23.660 And as you and I were at the same event speaking, I spoke, the theme was going to be suffering.
00:09:37.160 This is at the ARC Encounter.
00:09:39.520 And I called and I asked, may I speak on domestic violence?
00:09:43.640 Because one in three women are victims worldwide of domestic violence.
00:09:51.820 And that statistic is true even today in the United States.
00:09:57.380 One in three women.
00:09:59.860 And so they said, well, we've not had anyone ever speak on that topic.
00:10:04.820 Well, after I spoke, it was continually people coming up to me saying, and they would sometimes just do this.
00:10:14.300 In fact, you and I were on a plane.
00:10:16.360 And when I was ready to disembark, to get off the plane, a woman on your row, you were a row behind me.
00:10:28.080 And over to your right was a woman, and she said, June.
00:10:34.000 And I turned, and I was in the aisle, and she said, thank you for your presentation.
00:10:42.600 I am one.
00:10:44.060 The one in three.
00:10:46.020 And she said it was so helpful what you shared.
00:10:49.340 And so we have people all around us we don't know are victims of domestic violence.
00:10:59.840 And therefore, there are many things that we need to take seriously.
00:11:05.400 So if you're not to stay and be in a violent home, if you're being treated wrong,
00:11:13.520 it can be verbal and emotional abuse, which is devastating because, you know, emotional abuse is the end result of any type of abuse.
00:11:29.880 It could be sexual.
00:11:31.160 It can be domestic.
00:11:33.040 It's all the different types.
00:11:35.100 It will impact people emotionally.
00:11:38.060 And therefore, we need to realize that God did not create us to be abused.
00:11:45.980 He has a plan and purpose for us.
00:11:49.480 And so there are times when we need to make healthy choices.
00:11:53.860 You say, well, I don't have a choice here.
00:11:57.040 In my situation, I don't have a choice.
00:12:00.000 Life is a series of choices.
00:12:01.840 There are people in place to help when abuse is taking place.
00:12:09.900 There's not one place in the Bible that you'll ever find the word violence right.
00:12:17.540 Meaning, I looked it up because I was in the former USSR after the fall of communism, the fall of the Iron Curtain.
00:12:29.180 And I was speaking at a large conference with people from 23 regions of the former Soviet Union.
00:12:38.620 And all of a sudden, here were these women yelling at these other women.
00:12:44.520 And I thought, had that happen, I have never seen it since.
00:12:49.680 And so I turned to my translator.
00:12:51.420 I said, what are they upset about?
00:12:53.860 Because we had just finished whatever I was teaching them.
00:12:56.880 And they said, well, the women on the left, they are saying that women must accept abuse.
00:13:08.000 And these others are saying, no, that's wrong.
00:13:12.180 They should not accept abuse.
00:13:13.960 And so the head of the seminary came up and finally he raised his hands and said, June will meet with the men.
00:13:26.440 These are all pastors.
00:13:27.780 Meet with the men on Saturday from 9 to 12 and address the topic of wife abuse.
00:13:36.080 And that wasn't scheduled.
00:13:41.100 And so the night before, I looked up every single verse in the Bible on violence.
00:13:48.000 Not one time is the word violence ever approved, ever right in God's sight.
00:13:55.400 So whenever there's treatment such as domestic violence, then we have a biblical right to move out of harm's way.
00:14:07.340 And, you know, if we just stay in it, all that does is confirm to the person who is being the abuser that, okay, I can do this without any consequence.
00:14:22.980 So it's possible also to seek, you know, legal accountability and legal justice and still forgive someone?
00:14:44.980 Yes.
00:14:45.920 See, it's not healthy for people to get away with wrongdoing.
00:14:50.500 Yeah.
00:14:50.740 That's not good for anyone.
00:14:52.040 You don't allow that for a child.
00:14:55.060 If some, you know, even if a child is stealing cookies from the cookie jar, they learn to steal more expensive items besides cookies.
00:15:07.080 And it's not healthy for children to get away with wrongdoing.
00:15:13.540 And every conscientious parent, a father and a mother would know that that would be the case.
00:15:21.060 Because if you let them continue on, that is the wrong message you're giving to just permit that which is not right in God's sight.
00:15:31.220 And it actually prepares them to be receptive to the Lord who has for us the way to live.
00:15:43.020 And so the more we uphold what God says is true, then we are actually in the long run taking a stand to help people by example.
00:15:53.400 And you can also forgive someone without being completely reconciled to them.
00:15:58.820 Is that right?
00:16:00.420 Wow.
00:16:01.180 You hit.
00:16:02.080 That's a fantastic question.
00:16:08.500 I wrote a book called How to Forgive When You Don't Feel Like It.
00:16:13.240 Because I didn't feel like it.
00:16:16.400 And there were, there was a, I'm trying to remember what they, he called himself, but he would write reviews.
00:16:26.000 This man wrote reviews for all new books.
00:16:29.200 And he said, I want you to know, I did not think that much about, okay, I saw the title of the book and I just started to end and didn't think it'd be that helpful to me personally.
00:16:44.840 And then he said, but it changed my life.
00:16:48.100 And I'm reading this, I don't know this man at all.
00:16:50.900 And then he said, what I saw, in fact, he said, I was stunned at one section of your book.
00:17:02.820 And it's, what's the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation?
00:17:07.920 Because many people use those terms almost interchangeably as though, well, if you forgive, then you must reconcile.
00:17:15.680 No, forgiveness takes place with only one person.
00:17:20.900 The one who is choosing to forgive.
00:17:23.620 Reconciliation requires two people.
00:17:26.660 Said another way, forgiveness is a free gift you give to one who has broken trust.
00:17:33.880 Reconciliation is a restored relationship based on restored trust.
00:17:42.200 So forgiveness is extended even if it's never, ever earned.
00:17:47.500 Reconciliation is extended because it has been earned.
00:17:55.680 And so, and I'll be very specific.
00:17:59.700 Let's say there is an abuser.
00:18:05.620 There are times when a person has moved out of harm's way.
00:18:15.140 Well, the question is, has that, you know, it's like, well, you should reconcile.
00:18:22.520 You must, or you must come back together.
00:18:26.360 No, not if there has not been a change.
00:18:32.940 And that's the whole point.
00:18:35.120 Forgiveness is just unconditional, regardless of a lack of repentance.
00:18:42.920 Reconciliation is conditional based on repentance.
00:18:46.920 Repentance is, imagine you're driving on a one-way street.
00:18:55.100 I'm sure you've driven on one-way streets.
00:18:57.520 I don't know if this has ever happened to you, but have you ever happened to realize,
00:19:01.300 oh my goodness, I didn't expect this.
00:19:03.400 I'm on a one-way street going the wrong direction.
00:19:06.420 And there are cars coming toward me.
00:19:09.060 Has that ever happened to you?
00:19:10.680 Yes.
00:19:11.320 Unfortunately.
00:19:11.840 Yeah, well, it's, I mean, it's typically happened to everyone where, oh, well, now once
00:19:17.080 you realize you're going the wrong way on a one-way street for your own good, you need
00:19:25.460 to turn.
00:19:26.760 Well, there are people who are rebellious and they're not going to turn, but there are those
00:19:32.260 who are willing to not be rebellious and to turn, and they're wise to do that.
00:19:39.880 And the Bible has a lot to say about when we need to repent and go the other direction.
00:19:48.840 It's a change of mind with a change of direction.
00:19:52.700 So the point is, if there, I'll give a different illustration.
00:19:58.360 Let's say, and you have, you have a little girl.
00:20:02.300 I know that.
00:20:03.120 And let's say there's a neighbor who, in fact, this couple, and the couple is so nice
00:20:10.740 because they'll keep your child in case you need help for a particular situation.
00:20:17.660 You can't get back at your home at a particular time.
00:20:22.380 And there's been a good relationship.
00:20:25.580 Later, you tragically learn that this man is a pedophile.
00:20:31.240 Now, he acted nice to you.
00:20:36.740 Is there any way that you would then allow him to have access to your daughter?
00:20:44.120 No.
00:20:45.000 No.
00:20:45.960 You would not be a conscientious mom if you allowed that.
00:20:50.420 And the point is, you would not reconcile with that man.
00:20:57.600 Now, you can choose, and that will be challenging.
00:21:02.860 You can choose to forgive him.
00:21:04.760 That means you're releasing him to God.
00:21:09.200 You're releasing him from you to God.
00:21:12.500 And not holding that against him continually.
00:21:21.000 But you would be right to report this because he could be a pedophile harming other children.
00:21:33.680 And that, you would not want that.
00:21:37.860 So, there can be still consequences.
00:21:41.160 Just because there's forgiveness doesn't mean that there are no consequences to the person who has wronged you.
00:21:47.820 I think there are a lot of lessons packed in there.
00:22:02.200 I mean, I'm sure there are people thinking, I'm thinking, I've never been in the situations that you described with any kind of domestic abuse.
00:22:09.720 But there are people in my life who I know that I haven't forgiven in my past, not because of kind of the abuse that you just talked about, but either real betrayal or perceived betrayal by me, things that they have done that I deem unforgivable.
00:22:26.700 And sometimes when I think about it, even though I know that I'm supposed to forgive, sometimes I don't really even know how.
00:22:32.440 Like, I don't even know what prayer to pray or what to say.
00:22:35.220 So, if someone is in that situation, all along the spectrum of either really, really being on the receiving end of some kind of abuse, or just someone who feels like they've been slighted or offended by someone.
00:22:47.380 Like, what's the first step that we take to really, truly releasing that?
00:22:52.020 Well, I'll tell you what the Lord says.
00:22:55.520 Pray for those who persecute you.
00:23:00.440 Now, how do you pray?
00:23:01.720 Some people think that means you're supposed to ask God to bless that person.
00:23:06.680 No.
00:23:07.940 With my dad, I prayed that he would have a changed life.
00:23:12.740 He, I later learned that his father beat his mother, and the kids would escape.
00:23:20.860 A relative told me he would either sleep on a church pew or sleep at his house in Illinois.
00:23:28.820 And I never heard any of this.
00:23:32.200 And I didn't know why was my dad the way he was.
00:23:36.460 What I can say is he had a rough upbringing.
00:23:42.340 And before that, though, I had, because I saw the scripture, pray for those who persecute you.
00:23:50.820 The Bible actually says, love your enemies.
00:23:52.960 And I thought, nobody could do that.
00:23:55.980 Here I am, you know, a new Christian.
00:23:59.920 I'm a teenager, and I'm reading, love your enemies.
00:24:05.460 I thought, that must be some ideal.
00:24:08.280 And I just kind of put it over there with the forgiveness thing that I couldn't understand.
00:24:13.660 But then I learned the word love actually is the, if we, there are different words for love.
00:24:24.380 There's storge, natural human affection.
00:24:27.480 There's eros, which is passion.
00:24:30.740 There is phileo.
00:24:33.040 That's the love of liking.
00:24:34.800 You like someone.
00:24:36.020 It's a friendship, wonderful type of love.
00:24:39.700 And then there's agape.
00:24:43.100 Agape love, when we read that God is love.
00:24:47.260 We read that we are to love our enemies.
00:24:51.660 It's agape.
00:24:53.100 Agape means giving a person a gift they don't deserve.
00:25:02.000 It is literally doing what is in their best interest.
00:25:05.320 So, consider, if we love our enemies, what is in the best interest?
00:25:14.600 And I remember thinking, what do I do with that?
00:25:18.320 And I remember, here I am, still in high school.
00:25:24.560 I'm a new Christian.
00:25:25.600 And I think, instead of me being in opposition, continually in opposition to dad, because I would initially look at him like this, with daggers in my eyes.
00:25:39.240 I thought, somebody's got to let him know how wrong he is.
00:25:41.980 Nobody is approaching him.
00:25:43.620 Nobody's confronting him.
00:25:45.240 And yet he has this lifestyle with these other women.
00:25:47.720 And so, then later I become a Christian, and I think, what do you mean love your enemies?
00:25:55.040 And I thought, okay, love doing what's in his best interest.
00:25:59.960 I thought, well, what would be helpful?
00:26:02.740 And so, I go home, and I think, all right, he has this fat address book with all of these names, because as a president of a company, he would call people to do different things at night.
00:26:19.300 But he would, in the middle of dinner, where's my address book?
00:26:24.160 Where's my address book?
00:26:25.480 Like, he'd bark out these orders, and so I remember going, finding that address book, this fat vinyl, you know, book of addresses.
00:26:38.900 And so, sure enough, that night, where's my address book?
00:26:43.040 And I said, I know where it is, Dad.
00:26:45.820 I'll go get it.
00:26:46.760 And very softly, I just slipped out of my chair, went to his bedroom, picked it up, and then I just came back and laid it to his side.
00:26:57.960 And he looked like, it's almost like his feet, his teeth fell out of his mouth, because my attitude was different.
00:27:09.960 And I began to look for ways that could be helpful.
00:27:18.340 And my, and I was praying that he would have, since the Bible says, love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you.
00:27:26.760 It's my, Matthew 5, 44.
00:27:29.020 And, you know, I'm just new at learning the Bible, and I felt differently.
00:27:35.720 My focus was, what could I do to express the love of Christ?
00:27:43.540 Because I was finding myself changing.
00:27:47.060 It took me a while on the forgiveness part, but I did learn to focus not on his fault, that was what I had been doing, but to focus on his need, and he needed a changed life through Christ.
00:28:05.720 Well, I could spend many, many hours talking to you, Miss June, but I want you to close us out with a song.
00:28:22.820 Not everyone knows this, but you sing beautifully.
00:28:24.940 You can play the guitar.
00:28:26.340 You've inspired me.
00:28:27.120 Maybe I'll take guitar lessons now.
00:28:29.680 But if you could just close us out with that song.
00:28:32.100 I'd love to.
00:28:35.720 Change my heart, oh God.
00:28:47.640 Make it ever true.
00:28:52.180 Change my heart, oh God.
00:28:56.040 May I be like you.
00:29:00.580 Change my heart, oh God.
00:29:03.820 Make it ever true.
00:29:07.300 Change my heart, oh God.
00:29:13.320 May I be like you.
00:29:17.860 You are the potter.
00:29:21.520 I am the clay.
00:29:26.060 Mold me and make me.
00:29:29.180 This is what I pray.
00:29:32.660 Change my heart, oh God.
00:29:34.660 Change my heart, oh God.
00:29:37.520 Make it ever true.
00:29:42.000 Change my heart, oh God.
00:29:45.780 May I be like you.
00:29:48.860 You are the potter.
00:29:53.460 You are the potter.
00:29:54.340 I am the clay.
00:29:58.340 Mold me and make me.
00:30:02.340 This is what I pray.
00:30:08.360 Change my heart, oh God.
00:30:12.680 Make it ever true.
00:30:15.460 Change my heart, oh God.
00:30:22.620 May I be like you.
00:30:31.340 Hey guys, if you love this podcast, please leave us a five-star review wherever you listen
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00:30:44.220 Thanks.
00:30:44.580 Bye.
00:30:48.620 Bye.
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00:31:04.160 frigor cm.
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00:31:13.460 Bye.
00:31:13.780 Bye.
00:31:14.540 Bye.