Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - September 25, 2023


Ep 878 ｜ Why Does Social Justice Divide the Church？ ｜ Guest： Voddie Baucham

Topics
social justice movement in evangelicalism discrimination ≠ racism update and republish this book
Hosted by
Allie Beth Stuckey
Guests
Voddie Baucham
Mentioned
George Floyd Tony Timpa Votie Bauckham Justine Damon Robert Mugabe Thomas Sewell Che Guevara Vodibakam Allie Derek Chauvin Fidel Castro Tamir Rice Africans Tons
Ep 877 ｜ Should Gay Couples Adopt？ ｜ Guest： Katy Faust (Part Two) Ep 879 ｜ Do Christians Idolize Sports？ ｜ Q&A

Episode Stats


Length

35 minutes

Words per minute

153.35

Word count

5,483

Sentence count

366

Harmful content

Misogyny

3

sentences flagged

Toxicity

10

sentences flagged

Hate speech

24

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Dr. Vodibakam is a cultural apologist and author, the Dean of the School of Divinity at African Christian University in Lusaka, Zambia, and the author of several books. His most recent book is Fault Lines: The Social Justice Movement and Evangelicalism s Looming Catastrophe. Now he has developed a curriculum for churches based on fault lines to help us navigate as Christians what social justice versus real justice really looks like, and how to deal with the divisive issue of ethnicity and partiality.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 Dr. Vodibakam is a cultural apologist and author, the dean of the School of Divinity
00:00:07.300 at African Christian University in Lusaka, Zambia.
00:00:11.200 He has written several books.
00:00:12.780 His most recent book is called Fault Lines, the Social Justice Movement and Evangelicalism's
00:00:18.560 Looming Catastrophe.
00:00:20.620 Now he has developed a curriculum for churches based on fault lines to help us navigate as
00:00:26.960 Christians, what social justice versus real justice really looks like. 0.99
00:00:31.580 How do we deal with this divisive issue of ethnicity and partiality?
00:00:37.180 So we're going to get into all of that and more today on this episode of Relatable, which
00:00:41.920 is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
00:00:43.860 Go to GoodRanchers.com.
00:00:45.180 Use code Allie at checkout. 1.00
00:00:46.300 That's GoodRanchers.com, code Allie.
00:00:56.960 Dr. Vodibakam, thanks so much for joining us all the way from Zambia.
00:01:02.040 Absolutely.
00:01:02.740 It's my pleasure.
00:01:03.860 Always enjoy being with you.
00:01:05.540 Yeah.
00:01:05.840 So I know people have been on the edge of their seats since the last time we talked because
00:01:09.960 or the last time we were supposed to have an interview because as we were talking, you
00:01:14.700 had to go address an emergency in your family.
00:01:17.980 Everything is OK.
00:01:19.240 But I've gotten so many messages since then saying, OK, but when are you doing the interview?
00:01:23.540 When are you doing the conversation?
00:01:26.140 Because people love hearing from you.
00:01:29.680 So let's talk about first this new curriculum, the 10-part video curriculum series, Fault
00:01:35.960 Lines.
00:01:36.340 Obviously, this is the same name as your book that came out, I think, a couple of years
00:01:40.520 ago now.
00:01:41.120 I think it came.
00:01:41.720 Did it come out in 2022 or 2021?
00:01:44.780 Yeah, the book actually came out in 2021.
00:01:48.020 So it has been a couple of years.
00:01:50.280 It's been a whirlwind, but it has been a couple of years.
00:01:53.300 And this curriculum is just kind of a follow-up on that, really a way for people who haven't
00:01:59.620 been introduced to the book to be introduced to it, for people who are familiar with it
00:02:04.120 to either delve deeper into the material, to revisit the material, or to introduce the
00:02:10.060 material to others.
00:02:11.760 And just give us a refresher.
00:02:13.780 A lot of people in this audience have already read it and they know what it is.
00:02:17.340 Some people haven't, though.
00:02:18.660 They don't know.
00:02:19.080 Well, what are you talking about?
00:02:20.400 Fault Lines, Social Justice. 0.62
00:02:22.860 Why is all of this so important?
00:02:26.260 Yeah.
00:02:26.900 You know, the subtitle is The Social Justice Movement and Evangelicalism's Looming Catastrophe. 0.64
00:02:33.020 And the whole idea was that there was this divide, and there continues to be, to a lesser degree,
00:02:40.060 this divide within evangelicalism over the broader issues of social justice, the broader
00:02:47.620 issues of the ideas of equity and racial justice and so on and so forth.
00:02:54.100 Really this sort of neo-Marxist idea of justice, if you will.
00:03:00.280 And what I'm doing in that is sort of laying out what's happening, sort of defining terms,
00:03:10.440 identifying the players and the sides, and really trying to dissect this movement in a
00:03:17.280 way that helps people think about it biblically.
00:03:19.180 And what I love about this curriculum is that you define so many terms that we hear all of
00:03:26.300 the time very explicitly and specifically, like white privilege, whiteness, equality versus
00:03:33.640 equity.
00:03:34.720 Why was it important for you, both in the book and in this curriculum, to really distill and
00:03:40.920 make explicit what these terms actually mean?
00:03:43.960 A couple of reasons.
00:03:47.420 One is that in many instances, Christians are talking past each other, right? 1.00
00:03:52.580 You'd be having a conversation and using terminology, but two people would be using it different ways.
00:04:00.000 So that was one reason.
00:04:00.940 I wanted to help people get on the same page.
00:04:03.120 Another reason is there are some people who intentionally use these terms because they are
00:04:09.540 deceptive.
00:04:10.940 They know exactly what they mean.
00:04:13.700 They know exactly what they're after.
00:04:15.900 And they know that Christians, for example, are all about justice.
00:04:20.660 Christians are all about equality and so on and so forth.
00:04:24.160 And so they use terms like racial justice and, you know, other terms like equity that, you
00:04:32.140 know, sound innocent enough.
00:04:33.640 But they're trying to communicate a different ideology and, at the end of the day, another
00:04:39.780 gospel.
00:04:40.660 So I wanted to sort of help people have these discussions, both with folks who are honest,
00:04:47.080 who just need to define terms, but also with people who are less than honest so that we
00:04:53.060 can smoke them out.
00:04:54.520 Yeah.
00:04:55.040 You know, this is a really tough and, I mean, as you explained through the title, divisive
00:05:01.700 debate for Christians, even Christians who agree seemingly on most other issues, agree
00:05:09.860 theologically in a lot of ways, agree on social issues.
00:05:14.340 We agree on gender and abortion. 0.82
00:05:16.560 And yet when it comes to this, I saw this in 2020, I still see it today with discussions
00:05:21.300 around things like affirmative action or black history curriculum and things like that.
00:05:26.180 Christians not being able to get on the same page when it comes to the issue of justice. 1.00
00:05:31.680 When it comes to the issue of oppressor versus oppression, what is the legacy of slavery?
00:05:37.400 How should we talk about slavery?
00:05:39.020 How should we talk about ethnicity?
00:05:41.080 Like, why is this the issue that drives not just like the world and Christians apart, not 0.88
00:05:46.260 just so-called progressive Christians and theologically conservative Christians, but even those of us
00:05:52.440 all in the same kind of theological camp?
00:05:54.940 Like, this seems to be race, ethnicity, justice, all that seems to be the issue that just drives
00:06:01.440 us apart.
00:06:02.680 Why is that?
00:06:04.960 I think it's because people know that it's a sensitive point for America and for Americans,
00:06:15.280 right?
00:06:15.620 It's part of our history that haunts us, unlike most people or unlike anybody else, really,
00:06:23.980 in the world.
00:06:25.080 It's interesting that slavery is, it's universal.
00:06:30.100 Slavery existed in every culture known to man, right?
00:06:34.500 What's unique about American slavery is, you know, the manner in which we ended it within 0.72
00:06:42.540 one lifetime after our founding.
00:06:46.480 But people know that because Americans are very sensitive about that history, it's a way
00:06:56.540 to get in, right?
00:06:57.680 It's a way to earn points.
00:06:59.560 It's a way to get a hearing.
00:07:01.460 And it's also a way to stop people in their tracks because of this sort of lingering guilt
00:07:07.620 over the history of slavery.
00:07:10.100 You can always just point at that and say, oh, yeah, well, you know, the history of slavery,
00:07:17.000 you're not being honest about slavery.
00:07:19.000 You're trying to, you know, whitewash slavery.
00:07:21.840 And Americans just, they don't want that to be the case.
00:07:27.260 We're still very sensitive about it.
00:07:29.720 And so it's a way to score points.
00:07:32.440 Yeah, I think that that's the case.
00:07:35.020 And then I think that there's also people who, especially, I mean, I see just like a lot
00:07:41.060 of white Christian women who are sincere.
00:07:44.820 They think that by posting the Black Square or by talking or reading White Fragility or doing
00:07:50.720 the Be the Bridge curriculum, whatever it is, talking about racial reconciliation, that
00:07:54.600 they truly are humbling themselves in a godly and Christ-like way, kind of like repenting
00:07:59.980 for not just necessarily the sins of their ancestors, but internalized white supremacy,
00:08:06.040 the sins of people who once lived in the same general geographic region as them who may have
00:08:10.800 had a similar melanin count than them.
00:08:12.860 They think they're doing the right thing by, you know, just talking about the stories in
00:08:18.600 which a Black person is killed by the police and not a white person.
00:08:22.420 But tell us, like, tell us why that's not actually godly humility that is going to lead
00:08:27.480 to a place of unity within the body of Christ.
00:08:31.400 Yeah, partly because it's not repentance.
00:08:33.840 It's actually penance.
00:08:35.460 You know, repentance is about my sin, right?
00:08:42.320 Repentance is about me acknowledging sins that I have committed, and sin as it's defined by
00:08:49.220 God, not as it's defined by my culture.
00:08:52.980 Sin that came from me, not sin that came from my ancestors.
00:08:58.160 The other thing is, when you buy into this ideology, when you buy into this white fragility, 0.95
00:09:03.640 be the bridge, you know, so on and so forth, anti-racist ideology, you buy into an ideology
00:09:10.220 that is about doing the work of anti-racism.
00:09:14.300 And that work of anti-racism is not repentance, it's penance.
00:09:18.660 It's continually paying for sins that will never fully be atoned for.
00:09:25.900 It's antithetical to the gospel, and it gets us nowhere in the end.
00:09:33.640 And why do you think, like, again, I just keep going back to the people who I know are
00:09:50.360 not stupid, I know really love the Lord.
00:09:53.480 Like, why do you think this is one thing, even beyond just scoring points, this is the 1.00
00:09:57.860 thing that trips people up, black and white Christians alike.
00:10:01.000 And it's almost like you can't even really have a conversation with some of them.
00:10:06.380 Like, there's a debate going on right now as we're recording this about, like, the Florida
00:10:10.320 curriculum saying that some slaves, after they were freed, benefited from some of the
00:10:15.580 skills that they learned while enslaved.
00:10:17.560 Does not say slavery was good, doesn't say slavery was justified, anything like that.
00:10:21.860 It notes that fact.
00:10:22.760 And I'm seeing Christians, conservatives, just, I mean, not, just talk past each other
00:10:29.000 and not even be able to get on the same page here.
00:10:31.340 It's just really baffling to me how on this thing, it seems like we can't talk objectively,
00:10:36.460 we can't talk truthfully, and we can't talk biblically.
00:10:40.980 You know, I'm tired of it, to be honest with you.
00:10:44.820 I don't have patience for it.
00:10:46.320 Listen, I have lived for the last eight years in Lusaka, Zambia, and I know for a fact that
00:10:59.420 God used that horrible time and period of history to bring me to a place of blessing.
00:11:11.100 And I can acknowledge that.
00:11:14.480 I have absolutely no shame in acknowledging that.
00:11:19.820 I'm able to be here and to be a blessing in large part because of God's providence in
00:11:27.740 my life generationally that took me away from here, mainly because my Black ancestors sold
00:11:35.980 me, right?
00:11:37.180 And I'm able to acknowledge that.
00:11:41.400 And I think what we have to do is we've got to just stop, right?
00:11:46.560 We've got to say enough.
00:11:48.600 We've got to call people to account.
00:11:51.120 And we've got to stop letting people make us feel guilty about things that we haven't done,
00:11:57.580 about things that we've had no part in, about things that nobody we know had any part in.
00:12:04.420 Enough already.
00:12:05.280 Yeah, yeah.
00:12:07.360 I'm tired of it, too.
00:12:08.420 I'm tired.
00:12:08.900 I thought that we kind of had moved past it after 2020.
00:12:11.700 But that's why I'm thankful for this curriculum, because this is something that people continue
00:12:15.580 to get confused about and just, as you said, talk past each other without having the same
00:12:20.680 definitions of things and the same perspective on things.
00:12:24.060 Session two of this curriculum talks about someone who was killed by the police.
00:12:28.160 And you say that you remember where you were or how you felt when you heard that this person
00:12:33.800 was killed by the police and that this person wasn't receiving justice.
00:12:37.620 But you're not talking about George Floyd.
00:12:39.600 You're not talking about some of the other names that we hear, you know, paraded out by
00:12:45.260 activists and by the media.
00:12:46.320 You're talking about someone named Tony Tempa.
00:12:48.860 Why do you bring up Tony Tempa's name in this curriculum?
00:12:50.920 I do bring it up.
00:12:53.620 And several people have talked to me about that.
00:12:55.920 And they say, you got me, because, you know, the way I tell the story, it sounds like I'm
00:13:03.940 talking about George Floyd.
00:13:06.460 Right.
00:13:06.780 But I'm actually talking about Tony Tempa, a man whose name most people don't know, who
00:13:13.740 was killed by the police in a way very similar to what happened to George Floyd, but was actually
00:13:22.260 much more sinister and vicious than what happened to George Floyd.
00:13:28.100 But of course, we don't know his name because Tony Tempa's white. 0.88
00:13:30.700 And that's the point that I make in the book and also am able to make it a very different
00:13:37.380 way in the video curriculum that I hope sort of brings it home for people.
00:13:43.280 The fact of the matter is, you know, every one of these instances that we talk about,
00:13:49.440 I mean, you know, you name it, Tamir Rice, George Floyd, you know, you name them.
00:13:57.620 And I can point to at least one and probably multiple non-black people, multiple white people
00:14:05.500 to whom the same thing has happened.
00:14:08.740 Yeah.
00:14:09.340 And people forget about that.
00:14:11.000 And when you bring it up, a lot of people just don't they don't know.
00:14:14.520 They don't realize that they've kind of bought into the media narrative that this only happens
00:14:18.700 to black people.
00:14:19.740 I think of Justine Damon, too.
00:14:21.780 She was also in Minneapolis.
00:14:23.320 She came out to talk to a policeman.
00:14:25.200 She was, you know, just a young white woman from Australia.
00:14:29.920 She walked out to talk to the police officer in her pajamas about a report that she had
00:14:34.340 just made. 0.96
00:14:34.900 And the police officer who was a black police officer shot her point blank, killed her, only
00:14:40.680 got 12 years in prison, obviously, obviously a lot less than what Derek Chauvin got.
00:14:45.160 And most people, as you said, don't know the story of Tony Tempa.
00:14:48.360 They don't know the story of Justine Damon.
00:14:50.060 And in a lot of cases, they don't feel the same compassion and they don't want to bring
00:14:56.760 it up, I guess, scoring points out of fear, whatever.
00:14:59.980 But at the end of the day, that's the kind of partiality that God says that he hates.
00:15:05.620 Like, that's the kind of discrimination and justice that God abhors.
00:15:10.880 Right.
00:15:11.100 Exactly.
00:15:13.740 That's unequal weights and measures.
00:15:15.820 You know, when we have a narrative that we're committed to, when we have a picture in our mind
00:15:21.920 and when we are convinced of it and we decide that anything to the contrary has to be dismissed
00:15:32.140 and anybody who brings up anything to the contrary has to be dismissed.
00:15:36.980 That, that's not an honest discussion, which is ironic because I keep hearing, you know,
00:15:43.560 we need to have a conversation about race, which, I mean, what else have we been having
00:15:48.760 a conversation about my whole lifetime, right?
00:15:52.420 And so you bring things like this up and all of a sudden it's like, well,
00:15:57.280 well, not a conversation that includes that, you know?
00:16:00.740 So again, I'm, I'm done with it.
00:16:04.960 It's time to just tell the truth.
00:16:07.020 It's time to have honest discussions with honest people and call out those who are not
00:16:13.260 being honest.
00:16:14.360 I'm curious, just your experience.
00:16:16.400 You grew up in South Carolina, right?
00:16:18.980 No, I grew up in Los Angeles.
00:16:20.780 I did spend a year in South Carolina.
00:16:23.820 Okay.
00:16:24.160 Maybe that's where it is.
00:16:25.280 When I got older, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:16:28.120 So when I got old enough to find a little trouble in South Central Los Angeles, my mother
00:16:32.660 shipped me out and I went and lived for a year with her oldest brother, the retired
00:16:37.640 drill instructor of the Marine Corps.
00:16:39.400 Yeah.
00:16:39.680 Right.
00:16:40.120 Okay.
00:16:40.360 I knew there was a South Carolina tie in there.
00:16:42.580 So South Carolina, California, growing up, you've talked about your story on a previous
00:16:48.240 episode of this podcast that we can listen to if people want to hear about it.
00:16:51.500 And as you said, you lived the last eight years in Zambia.
00:16:55.900 I, I'm just curious before I get into some other things in this curriculum, like, can
00:17:00.620 you compare and contrast a little bit?
00:17:02.780 Like, what is the perspective of oppression and justice and things like that from the people
00:17:09.580 that you know in Zambia, actual Africans from the conversation about race and oppression
00:17:16.020 and history here in the United States and privilege and all of those things.
00:17:20.620 I mean, it's, it's gotta be pretty different, I would guess.
00:17:25.160 It's very different because this is a very homogeneous culture.
00:17:29.300 Yeah.
00:17:29.580 It's interesting, you know, being an American and not only an American, but a Houstonian,
00:17:34.720 right.
00:17:34.920 I spent most of my life in Houston.
00:17:36.300 I was born in Los Angeles and, um, ended up, you know, going to high school in Texas
00:17:41.160 and college in Texas, spent my adult life in Texas.
00:17:44.360 And, and so most, most of my life in Houston before moving here.
00:17:48.120 And a lot of people don't know this, but Houston is the most ethnically diverse city in America.
00:17:54.140 And so going from the most ethnically diverse city in one of, if not the most ethnically diverse
00:18:02.080 countries in the world to a place that is anything but diverse, um, it was really quite shocking 1.00
00:18:12.020 for me.
00:18:13.340 And so those kinds of discussions are very different.
00:18:15.960 Now here you hear more, um, discussions about, uh, globalism and, you know, uh, post-colonialism
00:18:25.480 and those sorts of things.
00:18:27.560 Um, and you hear a lot more classical Marxism here as well.
00:18:33.120 Um, as opposed to the kind of, you know, neo-Marxist, some would say cultural Marxist ideologies
00:18:39.120 that are being dealt with there.
00:18:40.680 You hear a lot more sort of classical Marxism here, um, holding sway with people.
00:18:46.440 Um, there's a Fidel Castro street.
00:18:48.860 Um, you see pictures of Che Guevara on the back of, you know, the, the buses here.
00:18:54.860 I know this is kind of maybe off topic, but you know, that's strange.
00:18:58.820 Where does that come from?
00:18:59.980 Yeah.
00:19:01.220 Especially when you know how, how racist against black people, for example, Che Guevara was,
00:19:07.360 um, you know, whenever people, um, have experienced, uh, any kind of, any kind of real oppression,
00:19:17.440 um, a lot of African countries, Zambia, for example, only got its independence from Great
00:19:23.660 Britain in 1964.
00:19:25.760 Whenever that happens, um, you know, Marxism sounds really good when you first sort of break
00:19:35.440 free from something like that.
00:19:37.520 Um, and the Marxists are always very quick to get their foot in the door.
00:19:41.960 Uh, and so, you know, places like Russia and, you know, other places like that are very quick
00:19:47.600 to sort of get their foot in the door, uh, in places like this.
00:19:51.520 So, you know, I mean, there are a lot of reasons for it.
00:19:55.140 Um, a lot of the background here, a lot of sort of, um, tribal and collectivist ideas as
00:20:01.940 well, um, that find more Marxist ideologies, um, more similar, uh, there's, there's a lot
00:20:11.640 of reasons for it, but it's here.
00:20:13.540 That's interesting.
00:20:26.460 You know, I think about, we have friends from Zimbabwe who, um, became citizens a couple
00:20:31.400 of years ago.
00:20:32.160 And of course she lived there under Robert Mugabe, who was, I mean, he was a communist
00:20:36.860 and a lot of the things that he told the people of Zimbabwe are very similar to like the things
00:20:43.080 we hear today that the white people here, you know, they stole your land. 0.96
00:20:48.840 They're the reason you're poor. 0.99
00:20:50.300 They're the reason that you're oppressed. 0.99
00:20:52.240 And so we need to basically get rid of these white immigrants who are here and commercially 1.00
00:20:57.640 farming. 0.98
00:20:58.120 And so they did, they shut down a lot of the farms that were run by white people. 0.70
00:21:03.200 And in a lot of cases that included violence.
00:21:06.840 Uh, but the problem was, is that Zimbabwe went from the breadbasket of Africa and this very 0.93
00:21:11.600 industrious place with a lot of commercial farming to almost no commercial farming and
00:21:16.140 going even more deeply into poverty.
00:21:18.200 Robert Mugabe, of course, using all the resources that he had to enrich himself and to not share
00:21:23.940 it with the people at all.
00:21:25.100 And yet he came into power promising that he is going to enact vengeance and justice on behalf
00:21:30.400 of the indigenous Zimbabwean people and to get the colonizers out and to give them 0.97
00:21:36.740 health care and to, you know, get the indigenous people health care.
00:21:40.380 And I'm like, wow, that sounds like America.
00:21:42.320 And now we see where Zimbabwe is tons and tons of oppression and corruption and poverty. 0.79
00:21:48.800 The ideas always end the same way.
00:21:51.840 They're our neighbors to the South.
00:21:53.580 You know, we live just to the North of Zimbabwe and, you know, you're, you're telling that
00:21:57.600 story and I'm sitting here thinking two legs bad, four legs good, right?
00:22:03.380 It's, it's animal farm.
00:22:04.840 It's animal farm all over again.
00:22:06.760 I tell people all the time, you know, the two most, were the three most important books
00:22:11.220 you could be reading right now are the Bible, animal farm in 1984, right?
00:22:15.680 Um, I mean, we're, we're seeing those things.
00:22:18.960 We, we, this movie, we, this movie has played before, right?
00:22:22.280 Um, we, we know, we know where this ends.
00:22:26.260 Yeah, totally.
00:22:27.440 Another book that people need to read, and this is the title of one of the sessions, the
00:22:32.620 session number, uh, well, I guess it's, uh, yeah.
00:22:36.440 Session number four, that discrimination or disparities do not equal.
00:22:41.960 They don't automatically prove discrimination.
00:22:44.940 Thomas Sowell wrote a book, discrimination and disparities, which I highly recommend people
00:22:49.660 read, but this is also like a quick and easy way for people to get also what Thomas Sowell
00:22:55.860 has said and what a lot of people have said.
00:22:57.200 So what does this mean?
00:22:58.040 That disparities don't equal discrimination?
00:23:00.280 This blows people's mind.
00:23:03.360 Yeah, it, it really does.
00:23:05.360 Um, and it shouldn't because there are disparities everywhere, right?
00:23:11.760 Um, when we talk about equality, we're talking about people having equal value and equal worth
00:23:18.720 and equal dignity before God.
00:23:20.760 Um, and, and in the U S for example, in the West before the law as well, but we're not
00:23:27.960 talking about people having equal gifts, talents, and abilities, and therefore expecting equal
00:23:34.780 outcomes.
00:23:35.840 Uh, there are disparities and there are disparities everywhere.
00:23:40.580 Um, there are disparities in, um, um, achievements, academic achievements and economic achievements
00:23:47.420 between firstborn children and secondborn children in the same family, in the same household.
00:23:54.700 Um, so yeah, there are a lot of reasons for disparities and there are a lot of disparities
00:24:00.940 that we don't really care about.
00:24:02.220 Uh, for example, uh, the NFL and the NBA are what 65 and 75% black respectively.
00:24:12.300 Um, that's a disparity, but it's a disparity that we're okay with. 0.88
00:24:17.700 So we don't, we don't automatically say that that is the result of discrimination, but you
00:24:24.740 know, we, we need to recognize things like this that are obviously false.
00:24:30.440 If you just take a few seconds to think about them.
00:24:33.840 Yeah.
00:24:34.360 A lot of people I've realized don't want to take a few seconds to think about here's the
00:24:38.240 uncomfortable thing.
00:24:38.960 And I got into a conversation with a Christian, like a prominent Christian that everyone would
00:24:43.800 know if I said their name about this a few years ago.
00:24:46.340 And I brought this up that discrimination or disparities don't automatically mean discrimination.
00:24:51.880 So people say that a lot, Oh, the graduation rate, the test score, whatever, there are disparities
00:24:57.960 between black and white Americans that, and that proves systemic racism and oppression
00:25:02.860 and things like that.
00:25:03.920 And when you say, well, it doesn't necessarily prove racism.
00:25:07.180 There could be a variety of factors for that.
00:25:09.400 And the same way that there are a variety of factors for the disparities between Asian
00:25:14.700 Americans and white Americans, Asian Americans being on average, wealthier, higher test scores
00:25:19.460 and all that than white Americans.
00:25:20.620 And Nigerians, by the way.
00:25:23.080 Yes.
00:25:23.680 And Nigerian Americans. 0.62
00:25:25.020 Yes.
00:25:25.400 Tons of like non-white Americans are doing better overall than white Americans on average. 0.76
00:25:32.900 But again, as you were saying, it's only the disparity between white Americans and black
00:25:38.180 Americans that we're supposed to focus on and assume that it has to do with discrimination
00:25:41.880 and racism.
00:25:42.780 And then the question that I got, which then it gets into this kind of like emotional thing
00:25:46.600 is, well, if it's not racism, if it's not the system, then you must be saying that there
00:25:53.460 are like innate vulnerabilities or innate incapabilities in black people that prevent 1.00
00:26:00.680 them from being as successful as white people. 0.99
00:26:03.600 So if it's not discrimination, you must just think that black people are inherently inferior. 0.84
00:26:09.200 But to me, I mean, that's a false choice, right?
00:26:11.600 There are a lot of factors that come into play.
00:26:13.640 Yeah.
00:26:15.200 Fallacy of the excluded middle, right? 0.97
00:26:19.100 There are other possible answers.
00:26:22.620 It doesn't have to be innate.
00:26:25.660 In fact, in most of these things, these disparities aren't necessarily innate.
00:26:34.200 When you look at cultures, and this is something that people don't want to do, which is ironic
00:26:39.180 again, right?
00:26:39.900 All this talk about cultures.
00:26:41.720 We have to respect cultures.
00:26:43.640 We can't appropriate cultures. 1.00
00:26:45.880 We have to acknowledge cultures and so on and so forth.
00:26:48.840 And then when you talk about the differences between cultures because of the way that cultures 0.77
00:26:57.400 function and the things that cultures emphasize, now all of a sudden, people don't want to
00:27:04.780 have that discussion.
00:27:05.980 Again, let's have that serious discussion about race.
00:27:08.900 Okay, fine.
00:27:09.580 Let's talk about these issues.
00:27:11.460 No, not that serious discussion.
00:27:13.600 Only the serious discussion that plays by the ground rules that says everything has to
00:27:19.620 be explained by racism.
00:27:21.520 Yep.
00:27:22.520 Yep, it does.
00:27:23.900 Because you, if you start talking about those uncomfortable things, then that is basically
00:27:29.420 saying that black people have agency. 0.61
00:27:31.680 And that's, I realize you're not allowed to say, you're not allowed to say that black people
00:27:35.900 have agency, that they are individuals, just like the rest of us, that they have autonomy,
00:27:41.020 that they have the ability to make choices.
00:27:43.000 I realize like that is the blasphemous thing that you are never even allowed to imply in these
00:27:49.080 conversations.
00:27:49.660 But you are not only allowed, but expected to imply them when you talk about athletes and
00:28:00.040 entertainers.
00:28:01.120 When you talk about black athletes and entertainers, then people want to say, no, no, no, we're
00:28:06.980 the best because we work harder.
00:28:09.060 The last thing they want you to say is that it's innate, right?
00:28:12.540 No, no, no, no, no.
00:28:13.440 We work harder.
00:28:15.460 We put in more time, you know, so on and so forth.
00:28:18.300 Um, then it's okay to have those discussions and it's ironic because all you have to do
00:28:25.680 is just, just, just change the setting and all of a sudden the rules change as well.
00:28:32.700 I really, really encourage people to get this curriculum, get this curriculum for your Bible
00:28:50.200 study for your entire church.
00:28:51.900 This is a tough thing to talk about and not everyone has the time to be equipped with all
00:28:56.640 of this vocabulary and all of this stuff.
00:28:58.640 And that's okay.
00:28:59.200 That's why you've done this, but this needs to be something that people are on the same
00:29:04.040 page about when it comes to their church.
00:29:06.040 I've seen this divide churches really painfully.
00:29:09.920 And so let's just look at what the Bible, what history, what facts have to say about it.
00:29:14.060 And that's what this curriculum does.
00:29:16.320 So before I talk to you about the last thing, let me be the bad guy.
00:29:19.960 Yeah, yeah, it's mean old Votie Bauckham. 1.00
00:29:24.120 You don't have to take responsibility for it.
00:29:26.980 So where can people, um, where can people get it?
00:29:31.120 Salem now.
00:29:32.460 Okay.
00:29:33.080 Go to Salem now.org and you can find it there.
00:29:36.940 Watch.salemnow.com.
00:29:40.240 We'll link it in the description of this episode so people can get it easily.
00:29:43.940 Highly, highly encourage everyone to get it.
00:29:46.260 And then I do want to talk to you about the new kind of new book, uh, that's coming out
00:29:51.900 September 26th, the ever loving truth can faith survive in a post-Christian culture.
00:29:55.960 So this originally came out in 20 or, uh, 2004 coming out again.
00:30:01.220 So why are we, uh, why is it being republished?
00:30:06.520 Yeah, it's almost 20 years later and it's amazing how many of these things are still with
00:30:12.960 us and how many of these things, uh, have just sort of grown up and, and manifested themselves
00:30:19.780 in ways that we never could have imagined, uh, back then.
00:30:23.840 This was my first book actually.
00:30:26.320 Um, and so it's kind of a mix of classical apologetics and cultural apologetics.
00:30:31.680 Um, you know, I deal for example with, with, uh, questions like, you know, why I choose to
00:30:36.780 believe the Bible, um, as well as some of these sort of broader cultural issues.
00:30:42.000 Um, back then in 2004, I was mainly talking about secular humanism.
00:30:47.420 Um, and, and, you know, we're still dealing with secular humanism in many ways, but now
00:30:54.060 it's more neo-Marxism, um, but making some of the same kinds of arguments from different
00:31:01.440 angles.
00:31:02.340 Um, and so that's why the decision was made to, um, update and, and, and re-release this
00:31:08.800 book.
00:31:09.120 And I'm really excited about that.
00:31:11.640 Yeah.
00:31:12.180 You know, it is crazy how many of these apologetics defending your faith questions are just kind
00:31:18.800 of, I mean, they're resounding throughout history, going all the way back to the church
00:31:23.160 fathers, but then you even look at CS Lewis and then your book in 2004 and how they just
00:31:29.260 kind of become repackaged with whatever cultural moment that we're in.
00:31:34.560 Um, we keep on coming up to the same kind of obstacles and we do need people to be equipped
00:31:41.560 to address them so they can get that or we'll be able to get that wherever books are sold,
00:31:46.140 right?
00:31:47.480 Yeah, absolutely.
00:31:49.200 Okay.
00:31:49.660 Perfect.
00:31:50.120 Well, I almost said something there, but yes, wherever books are sold.
00:31:55.420 Okay.
00:31:55.680 Although sometimes my book, sometimes my books are not sold wherever books are sold.
00:32:01.580 Um, sometimes you have to, you have to go search and ask, um, for, for my books.
00:32:06.780 They're kind of hidden in the back of some places.
00:32:08.400 I can't imagine why.
00:32:09.360 I'm sure it's just, I'm sure it's just a coincidence and yet fault lines, incredibly
00:32:13.880 popular.
00:32:14.360 This book, incredibly popular.
00:32:15.960 I know that the curriculum will be too.
00:32:17.720 People are like starving for clarity and that's what these books offer.
00:32:21.440 So thank you so much for being a refuge of clarity for so many people who just don't
00:32:27.860 want to deal with it or don't know how.
00:32:29.880 All right, uh, Dr. Bauckham, where can people follow you, find you, all that good stuff?
00:32:36.380 Uh, Vody Bauckham.org is the place that I can be found.
00:32:41.040 So it's V-O-D-D-I-E-B-A-U-C-H-A-M dot O-R-G. 1.00
00:32:46.560 And you've written lots of books and have a lot of work out there, a lot of sermons out
00:32:50.020 there.
00:32:50.280 So if people want to find those, they can go to Vody Bauckham.org and find them all.
00:32:57.100 Thank you so much, Dr. Bauckham, for taking the time to come on.
00:33:00.860 Absolutely.
00:33:01.540 Thank you.
00:33:02.380 God bless you.
00:33:03.260 Thank you too.
00:33:03.800 All right, guys.
00:33:16.700 Hope you enjoyed that conversation.
00:33:19.820 Um, right now I'm going to play a little clip from the promo of the curriculum, about two
00:33:26.540 minutes of this promo, just so you, uh, get a sense for what this curriculum will be.
00:33:32.600 So here's that.
00:33:33.800 The Bible is very clear about the issue of justice.
00:33:38.080 What does the Lord require of you to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God?
00:33:44.420 We know this from Micah 6.8.
00:33:47.220 And so justice is not optional for the people of God.
00:33:51.720 That's why it's so critical that we understand what justice is.
00:33:56.080 One of the dangers of the social justice movement is that it uses terminology that on the surface
00:34:05.460 sounds like it ought to be what we as Christians are about.
00:34:10.640 One of the dangers of the social justice movement is that it's not optional for the people of God.
00:34:12.920 One of the dangers of the social justice movement is that it's not optional for the people of God.
00:34:14.920 So what we need to do is get behind these terms, get behind these words, get behind these words and look at two things.
00:34:31.100 Number one, look at what people mean when they use them in this cultural moment, and number two, evaluate that in light of what the Bible says about the same issues.
00:34:46.280 So, for example, when we talk about justice from a biblical perspective, justice means the righteous application, the impartial application of the law of God in a given circumstance.
00:35:01.420 We're told that we're not to be impartial to the poor or to the rich.
00:35:04.960 We have to apply God's law equally across the board.
00:35:12.300 Social justice means something very different.
00:35:14.700 And so if we're going to have conversations about justice, if we're going to have conversations about contemporary issues of our day,
00:35:25.080 we're going to have to do so in light of what the Word of God has to teach about all of these issues and while evaluating the cultural moment.
00:35:39.160 Thanks, y'all, so much for listening.
00:35:41.560 I really appreciate it.
00:35:43.440 We will be back soon with more.