Ep 878 ｜ Why Does Social Justice Divide the Church？ ｜ Guest： Voddie Baucham
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Summary
Dr. Vodibakam is a cultural apologist and author, the Dean of the School of Divinity at African Christian University in Lusaka, Zambia, and the author of several books. His most recent book is Fault Lines: The Social Justice Movement and Evangelicalism s Looming Catastrophe. Now he has developed a curriculum for churches based on fault lines to help us navigate as Christians what social justice versus real justice really looks like, and how to deal with the divisive issue of ethnicity and partiality.
Transcript
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Dr. Vodibakam is a cultural apologist and author, the dean of the School of Divinity
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at African Christian University in Lusaka, Zambia.
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His most recent book is called Fault Lines, the Social Justice Movement and Evangelicalism's
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Now he has developed a curriculum for churches based on fault lines to help us navigate as
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Christians, what social justice versus real justice really looks like.
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How do we deal with this divisive issue of ethnicity and partiality?
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So we're going to get into all of that and more today on this episode of Relatable, which
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is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
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Dr. Vodibakam, thanks so much for joining us all the way from Zambia.
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So I know people have been on the edge of their seats since the last time we talked because
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or the last time we were supposed to have an interview because as we were talking, you
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But I've gotten so many messages since then saying, OK, but when are you doing the interview?
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So let's talk about first this new curriculum, the 10-part video curriculum series, Fault
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Obviously, this is the same name as your book that came out, I think, a couple of years
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It's been a whirlwind, but it has been a couple of years.
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And this curriculum is just kind of a follow-up on that, really a way for people who haven't
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been introduced to the book to be introduced to it, for people who are familiar with it
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to either delve deeper into the material, to revisit the material, or to introduce the
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A lot of people in this audience have already read it and they know what it is.
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You know, the subtitle is The Social Justice Movement and Evangelicalism's Looming Catastrophe.
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And the whole idea was that there was this divide, and there continues to be, to a lesser degree,
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this divide within evangelicalism over the broader issues of social justice, the broader
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issues of the ideas of equity and racial justice and so on and so forth.
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Really this sort of neo-Marxist idea of justice, if you will.
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And what I'm doing in that is sort of laying out what's happening, sort of defining terms,
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identifying the players and the sides, and really trying to dissect this movement in a
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way that helps people think about it biblically.
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And what I love about this curriculum is that you define so many terms that we hear all of
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the time very explicitly and specifically, like white privilege, whiteness, equality versus
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Why was it important for you, both in the book and in this curriculum, to really distill and
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One is that in many instances, Christians are talking past each other, right?
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You'd be having a conversation and using terminology, but two people would be using it different ways.
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Another reason is there are some people who intentionally use these terms because they are
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And they know that Christians, for example, are all about justice.
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Christians are all about equality and so on and so forth.
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And so they use terms like racial justice and, you know, other terms like equity that, you
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But they're trying to communicate a different ideology and, at the end of the day, another
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So I wanted to sort of help people have these discussions, both with folks who are honest,
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who just need to define terms, but also with people who are less than honest so that we
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You know, this is a really tough and, I mean, as you explained through the title, divisive
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debate for Christians, even Christians who agree seemingly on most other issues, agree
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theologically in a lot of ways, agree on social issues.
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And yet when it comes to this, I saw this in 2020, I still see it today with discussions
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around things like affirmative action or black history curriculum and things like that.
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Christians not being able to get on the same page when it comes to the issue of justice.
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When it comes to the issue of oppressor versus oppression, what is the legacy of slavery?
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Like, why is this the issue that drives not just like the world and Christians apart, not
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just so-called progressive Christians and theologically conservative Christians, but even those of us
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Like, this seems to be race, ethnicity, justice, all that seems to be the issue that just drives
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I think it's because people know that it's a sensitive point for America and for Americans,
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It's part of our history that haunts us, unlike most people or unlike anybody else, really,
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It's interesting that slavery is, it's universal.
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Slavery existed in every culture known to man, right?
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What's unique about American slavery is, you know, the manner in which we ended it within
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But people know that because Americans are very sensitive about that history, it's a way
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And it's also a way to stop people in their tracks because of this sort of lingering guilt
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You can always just point at that and say, oh, yeah, well, you know, the history of slavery,
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And Americans just, they don't want that to be the case.
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And then I think that there's also people who, especially, I mean, I see just like a lot
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They think that by posting the Black Square or by talking or reading White Fragility or doing
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the Be the Bridge curriculum, whatever it is, talking about racial reconciliation, that
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they truly are humbling themselves in a godly and Christ-like way, kind of like repenting
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for not just necessarily the sins of their ancestors, but internalized white supremacy,
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the sins of people who once lived in the same general geographic region as them who may have
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They think they're doing the right thing by, you know, just talking about the stories in
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which a Black person is killed by the police and not a white person.
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But tell us, like, tell us why that's not actually godly humility that is going to lead
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Repentance is about me acknowledging sins that I have committed, and sin as it's defined by
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Sin that came from me, not sin that came from my ancestors.
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The other thing is, when you buy into this ideology, when you buy into this white fragility,
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be the bridge, you know, so on and so forth, anti-racist ideology, you buy into an ideology
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And that work of anti-racism is not repentance, it's penance.
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It's continually paying for sins that will never fully be atoned for.
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It's antithetical to the gospel, and it gets us nowhere in the end.
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And why do you think, like, again, I just keep going back to the people who I know are
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Like, why do you think this is one thing, even beyond just scoring points, this is the
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thing that trips people up, black and white Christians alike.
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And it's almost like you can't even really have a conversation with some of them.
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Like, there's a debate going on right now as we're recording this about, like, the Florida
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curriculum saying that some slaves, after they were freed, benefited from some of the
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Does not say slavery was good, doesn't say slavery was justified, anything like that.
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And I'm seeing Christians, conservatives, just, I mean, not, just talk past each other
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and not even be able to get on the same page here.
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It's just really baffling to me how on this thing, it seems like we can't talk objectively,
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we can't talk truthfully, and we can't talk biblically.
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You know, I'm tired of it, to be honest with you.
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Listen, I have lived for the last eight years in Lusaka, Zambia, and I know for a fact that
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God used that horrible time and period of history to bring me to a place of blessing.
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I have absolutely no shame in acknowledging that.
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I'm able to be here and to be a blessing in large part because of God's providence in
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my life generationally that took me away from here, mainly because my Black ancestors sold
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And I think what we have to do is we've got to just stop, right?
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And we've got to stop letting people make us feel guilty about things that we haven't done,
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about things that we've had no part in, about things that nobody we know had any part in.
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I thought that we kind of had moved past it after 2020.
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But that's why I'm thankful for this curriculum, because this is something that people continue
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to get confused about and just, as you said, talk past each other without having the same
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definitions of things and the same perspective on things.
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Session two of this curriculum talks about someone who was killed by the police.
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And you say that you remember where you were or how you felt when you heard that this person
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was killed by the police and that this person wasn't receiving justice.
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You're not talking about some of the other names that we hear, you know, paraded out by
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Why do you bring up Tony Tempa's name in this curriculum?
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And several people have talked to me about that.
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And they say, you got me, because, you know, the way I tell the story, it sounds like I'm
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But I'm actually talking about Tony Tempa, a man whose name most people don't know, who
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was killed by the police in a way very similar to what happened to George Floyd, but was actually
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much more sinister and vicious than what happened to George Floyd.
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But of course, we don't know his name because Tony Tempa's white.
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And that's the point that I make in the book and also am able to make it a very different
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way in the video curriculum that I hope sort of brings it home for people.
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The fact of the matter is, you know, every one of these instances that we talk about,
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I mean, you know, you name it, Tamir Rice, George Floyd, you know, you name them.
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And I can point to at least one and probably multiple non-black people, multiple white people
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And when you bring it up, a lot of people just don't they don't know.
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They don't realize that they've kind of bought into the media narrative that this only happens
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She was, you know, just a young white woman from Australia.
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She walked out to talk to the police officer in her pajamas about a report that she had
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And the police officer who was a black police officer shot her point blank, killed her, only
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got 12 years in prison, obviously, obviously a lot less than what Derek Chauvin got.
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And most people, as you said, don't know the story of Tony Tempa.
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And in a lot of cases, they don't feel the same compassion and they don't want to bring
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it up, I guess, scoring points out of fear, whatever.
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But at the end of the day, that's the kind of partiality that God says that he hates.
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Like, that's the kind of discrimination and justice that God abhors.
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You know, when we have a narrative that we're committed to, when we have a picture in our mind
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and when we are convinced of it and we decide that anything to the contrary has to be dismissed
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and anybody who brings up anything to the contrary has to be dismissed.
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That, that's not an honest discussion, which is ironic because I keep hearing, you know,
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we need to have a conversation about race, which, I mean, what else have we been having
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And so you bring things like this up and all of a sudden it's like, well,
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well, not a conversation that includes that, you know?
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It's time to have honest discussions with honest people and call out those who are not
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So when I got old enough to find a little trouble in South Central Los Angeles, my mother
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shipped me out and I went and lived for a year with her oldest brother, the retired
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I knew there was a South Carolina tie in there.
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So South Carolina, California, growing up, you've talked about your story on a previous
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episode of this podcast that we can listen to if people want to hear about it.
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And as you said, you lived the last eight years in Zambia.
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I, I'm just curious before I get into some other things in this curriculum, like, can
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Like, what is the perspective of oppression and justice and things like that from the people
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that you know in Zambia, actual Africans from the conversation about race and oppression
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and history here in the United States and privilege and all of those things.
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I mean, it's, it's gotta be pretty different, I would guess.
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It's very different because this is a very homogeneous culture.
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It's interesting, you know, being an American and not only an American, but a Houstonian,
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I was born in Los Angeles and, um, ended up, you know, going to high school in Texas
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and college in Texas, spent my adult life in Texas.
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And, and so most, most of my life in Houston before moving here.
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And a lot of people don't know this, but Houston is the most ethnically diverse city in America.
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And so going from the most ethnically diverse city in one of, if not the most ethnically diverse
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countries in the world to a place that is anything but diverse, um, it was really quite shocking
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And so those kinds of discussions are very different.
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Now here you hear more, um, discussions about, uh, globalism and, you know, uh, post-colonialism
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Um, and you hear a lot more classical Marxism here as well.
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Um, as opposed to the kind of, you know, neo-Marxist, some would say cultural Marxist ideologies
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You hear a lot more sort of classical Marxism here, um, holding sway with people.
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Um, you see pictures of Che Guevara on the back of, you know, the, the buses here.
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I know this is kind of maybe off topic, but you know, that's strange.
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Especially when you know how, how racist against black people, for example, Che Guevara was,
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um, you know, whenever people, um, have experienced, uh, any kind of, any kind of real oppression,
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um, a lot of African countries, Zambia, for example, only got its independence from Great
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Whenever that happens, um, you know, Marxism sounds really good when you first sort of break
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Um, and the Marxists are always very quick to get their foot in the door.
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Uh, and so, you know, places like Russia and, you know, other places like that are very quick
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to sort of get their foot in the door, uh, in places like this.
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So, you know, I mean, there are a lot of reasons for it.
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Um, a lot of the background here, a lot of sort of, um, tribal and collectivist ideas as
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well, um, that find more Marxist ideologies, um, more similar, uh, there's, there's a lot
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You know, I think about, we have friends from Zimbabwe who, um, became citizens a couple
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And of course she lived there under Robert Mugabe, who was, I mean, he was a communist
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and a lot of the things that he told the people of Zimbabwe are very similar to like the things
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we hear today that the white people here, you know, they stole your land.
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And so we need to basically get rid of these white immigrants who are here and commercially
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And so they did, they shut down a lot of the farms that were run by white people.
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Uh, but the problem was, is that Zimbabwe went from the breadbasket of Africa and this very
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industrious place with a lot of commercial farming to almost no commercial farming and
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Robert Mugabe, of course, using all the resources that he had to enrich himself and to not share
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And yet he came into power promising that he is going to enact vengeance and justice on behalf
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of the indigenous Zimbabwean people and to get the colonizers out and to give them
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health care and to, you know, get the indigenous people health care.
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And now we see where Zimbabwe is tons and tons of oppression and corruption and poverty.
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You know, we live just to the North of Zimbabwe and, you know, you're, you're telling that
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story and I'm sitting here thinking two legs bad, four legs good, right?
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I tell people all the time, you know, the two most, were the three most important books
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you could be reading right now are the Bible, animal farm in 1984, right?
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We, we, this movie, we, this movie has played before, right?
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Another book that people need to read, and this is the title of one of the sessions, the
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session number, uh, well, I guess it's, uh, yeah.
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Session number four, that discrimination or disparities do not equal.
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Thomas Sowell wrote a book, discrimination and disparities, which I highly recommend people
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read, but this is also like a quick and easy way for people to get also what Thomas Sowell
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Um, and it shouldn't because there are disparities everywhere, right?
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Um, when we talk about equality, we're talking about people having equal value and equal worth
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Um, and, and in the U S for example, in the West before the law as well, but we're not
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talking about people having equal gifts, talents, and abilities, and therefore expecting equal
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Uh, there are disparities and there are disparities everywhere.
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Um, there are disparities in, um, um, achievements, academic achievements and economic achievements
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between firstborn children and secondborn children in the same family, in the same household.
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Um, so yeah, there are a lot of reasons for disparities and there are a lot of disparities
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Uh, for example, uh, the NFL and the NBA are what 65 and 75% black respectively.
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Um, that's a disparity, but it's a disparity that we're okay with.
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So we don't, we don't automatically say that that is the result of discrimination, but you
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know, we, we need to recognize things like this that are obviously false.
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If you just take a few seconds to think about them.
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A lot of people I've realized don't want to take a few seconds to think about here's the
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And I got into a conversation with a Christian, like a prominent Christian that everyone would
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know if I said their name about this a few years ago.
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And I brought this up that discrimination or disparities don't automatically mean discrimination.
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So people say that a lot, Oh, the graduation rate, the test score, whatever, there are disparities
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between black and white Americans that, and that proves systemic racism and oppression
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And when you say, well, it doesn't necessarily prove racism.
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And the same way that there are a variety of factors for the disparities between Asian
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Americans and white Americans, Asian Americans being on average, wealthier, higher test scores
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Tons of like non-white Americans are doing better overall than white Americans on average.
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But again, as you were saying, it's only the disparity between white Americans and black
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Americans that we're supposed to focus on and assume that it has to do with discrimination
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And then the question that I got, which then it gets into this kind of like emotional thing
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is, well, if it's not racism, if it's not the system, then you must be saying that there
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are like innate vulnerabilities or innate incapabilities in black people that prevent
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So if it's not discrimination, you must just think that black people are inherently inferior.
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But to me, I mean, that's a false choice, right?
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There are a lot of factors that come into play.
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In fact, in most of these things, these disparities aren't necessarily innate.
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When you look at cultures, and this is something that people don't want to do, which is ironic
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We have to acknowledge cultures and so on and so forth.
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And then when you talk about the differences between cultures because of the way that cultures
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function and the things that cultures emphasize, now all of a sudden, people don't want to
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Again, let's have that serious discussion about race.
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Only the serious discussion that plays by the ground rules that says everything has to
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Because you, if you start talking about those uncomfortable things, then that is basically
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And that's, I realize you're not allowed to say, you're not allowed to say that black people
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have agency, that they are individuals, just like the rest of us, that they have autonomy,
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I realize like that is the blasphemous thing that you are never even allowed to imply in these
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But you are not only allowed, but expected to imply them when you talk about athletes and
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When you talk about black athletes and entertainers, then people want to say, no, no, no, we're
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The last thing they want you to say is that it's innate, right?
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We put in more time, you know, so on and so forth.
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Um, then it's okay to have those discussions and it's ironic because all you have to do
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is just, just, just change the setting and all of a sudden the rules change as well.
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I really, really encourage people to get this curriculum, get this curriculum for your Bible
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This is a tough thing to talk about and not everyone has the time to be equipped with all
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That's why you've done this, but this needs to be something that people are on the same
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I've seen this divide churches really painfully.
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And so let's just look at what the Bible, what history, what facts have to say about it.
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So before I talk to you about the last thing, let me be the bad guy.
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So where can people, um, where can people get it?
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We'll link it in the description of this episode so people can get it easily.
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And then I do want to talk to you about the new kind of new book, uh, that's coming out
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September 26th, the ever loving truth can faith survive in a post-Christian culture.
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So this originally came out in 20 or, uh, 2004 coming out again.
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So why are we, uh, why is it being republished?
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Yeah, it's almost 20 years later and it's amazing how many of these things are still with
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us and how many of these things, uh, have just sort of grown up and, and manifested themselves
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in ways that we never could have imagined, uh, back then.
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Um, and so it's kind of a mix of classical apologetics and cultural apologetics.
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Um, you know, I deal for example with, with, uh, questions like, you know, why I choose to
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believe the Bible, um, as well as some of these sort of broader cultural issues.
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Um, back then in 2004, I was mainly talking about secular humanism.
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Um, and, and, you know, we're still dealing with secular humanism in many ways, but now
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it's more neo-Marxism, um, but making some of the same kinds of arguments from different
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Um, and so that's why the decision was made to, um, update and, and, and re-release this
00:31:12.180
You know, it is crazy how many of these apologetics defending your faith questions are just kind
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of, I mean, they're resounding throughout history, going all the way back to the church
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fathers, but then you even look at CS Lewis and then your book in 2004 and how they just
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kind of become repackaged with whatever cultural moment that we're in.
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Um, we keep on coming up to the same kind of obstacles and we do need people to be equipped
00:31:41.560
to address them so they can get that or we'll be able to get that wherever books are sold,
00:31:50.120
Well, I almost said something there, but yes, wherever books are sold.
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Although sometimes my book, sometimes my books are not sold wherever books are sold.
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Um, sometimes you have to, you have to go search and ask, um, for, for my books.
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They're kind of hidden in the back of some places.
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I'm sure it's just, I'm sure it's just a coincidence and yet fault lines, incredibly
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People are like starving for clarity and that's what these books offer.
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So thank you so much for being a refuge of clarity for so many people who just don't
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All right, uh, Dr. Bauckham, where can people follow you, find you, all that good stuff?
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Uh, Vody Bauckham.org is the place that I can be found.
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And you've written lots of books and have a lot of work out there, a lot of sermons out
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So if people want to find those, they can go to Vody Bauckham.org and find them all.
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Thank you so much, Dr. Bauckham, for taking the time to come on.
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Um, right now I'm going to play a little clip from the promo of the curriculum, about two
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minutes of this promo, just so you, uh, get a sense for what this curriculum will be.
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The Bible is very clear about the issue of justice.
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What does the Lord require of you to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God?
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And so justice is not optional for the people of God.
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That's why it's so critical that we understand what justice is.
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One of the dangers of the social justice movement is that it uses terminology that on the surface
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sounds like it ought to be what we as Christians are about.
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One of the dangers of the social justice movement is that it's not optional for the people of God.
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One of the dangers of the social justice movement is that it's not optional for the people of God.
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So what we need to do is get behind these terms, get behind these words, get behind these words and look at two things.
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Number one, look at what people mean when they use them in this cultural moment, and number two, evaluate that in light of what the Bible says about the same issues.
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So, for example, when we talk about justice from a biblical perspective, justice means the righteous application, the impartial application of the law of God in a given circumstance.
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We're told that we're not to be impartial to the poor or to the rich.
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We have to apply God's law equally across the board.
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And so if we're going to have conversations about justice, if we're going to have conversations about contemporary issues of our day,
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we're going to have to do so in light of what the Word of God has to teach about all of these issues and while evaluating the cultural moment.