Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 881 ｜ Scientology, Rape Cover-Ups, & Forced Abortions ｜ Guests： Jeremiah Roberts & Andrew Soncrant of 'Cultish' (Part Two)

00:00:00.680 What are some of the conspiracies within Scientology?

00:00:04.920 The wife of the leader of Scientology has been missing since 2006.

00:00:09.380 No one knows her whereabouts.

00:00:11.840 There are a lot of stories like this within Scientology, as well as tales of abuse, mistreatment, neglect.

00:00:18.700 We need to peel back the layers on this and look at what's really going on.

00:00:23.760 And again, why it really matters and how Christianity and Christianity alone offers the true freedom that people are trying but failing to find in cults like Scientology.

00:00:36.420 We're back with Jeremiah Roberts and Andrew Songkrant.

00:00:39.200 This is part two of the two-part series on Scientology.

00:00:42.580 They're the host of the Cultish podcast, which I highly recommend.

00:00:45.940 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:49.020 Go to GoodRanchers.com.

00:00:50.100 Use code ALI to check out.

00:00:51.200 That's GoodRanchers.com.

00:00:52.320 Code ALI.

00:00:53.760 So this is going to be the moment we're going to maybe jump in and kind of get a little tinfoil hat-ish, kind of, you know, get into the conspiracy world.

00:01:07.380 Let's do it.

00:01:07.800 Yes, that's where I was about to go anyway, so that's perfect.

00:01:11.800 Awesome.

00:01:12.160 And so when you look at—so it was around 1967 after L. Ron Hubbard had established the Church of Scientology.

00:01:19.600 The IRS had revoked its tax-exempt status, and this would—I think this would have been a slap in the face to L. Ron Hubbard giving what he had very, on a matter of public record, seeing he wanted to utilize a religion as a way to obtain wealth, to be rich, you know, whatever his motives—true motives were.

00:01:39.020 And so what ends up happening is because of the fact that they have their IRS tax-exempt status, you basically had a period of years where you had multiple—you think about Watergate.

00:01:50.620 You had just a small little, like, maybe like 12 or so people who, you know, spied on another campaign, and you think everything could happen with the Nixon administration.

00:02:00.180 You had roughly around 5,000—I think 5,000 members of the Church of Scientology who are actively involved on multiple different fronts in the government, not just the Internal Revenue Service, but just trying to obtain documents, trying to forge documents, basically everything to take revenge, lash back, and do whatever needs necessary to get their tax-exempt status back.

00:02:23.920 It's a pretty wild story of infiltration. In fact, when I was initially doing my research, I was thinking, how have they not made a movie about this?

00:02:32.260 Well, I mean, if they did make a movie, it probably wouldn't be starring Tom Cruise, for sure.

00:02:36.180 But, yeah, Andrew, how would you describe a very cliff-notes version of this? Because this is—you did some research on this.

00:02:43.700 How would you kind of describe very cliff-notes what happened? Because it's connected to some of the other issues with Scientology and the tax-exempt status.

00:02:49.460 Yeah, I think that you did a pretty good job, actually, examining the cliff notes.

00:02:53.920 But what I find interesting is that, first, there was something written by L. Ron Hubbard in terms of a doctrine that was put forth that, from this doctrine, they extrapolated the Operation Snow White to occur.

00:03:09.240 And what's actually funny from it is that L. Ron Hubbard's wife kind of took the fall for it, and he kind of threw her under the bus, being like, I didn't tell them to go do this.

00:03:18.820 I just actually just created this doctrine that they extrapolated from.

00:03:21.460 I think you actually did a really good job with that cliff-notes version.

00:03:24.240 But when we're even talking about in terms of conspiracy, we're not referring to conspiracies with no verifiable evidence.

00:03:30.800 We're talking like conspiracies in terms of how Joseph's brothers conspired against him to throw him into a pit, actual historical conspiracies where the Church of Scientology conspired against the United States government.

00:03:41.700 And this is things that actually did happen.

00:03:43.400 It's important to understand that distinction as well.

00:03:45.500 Yeah, and so what ends up – really what ends up happening at the very pinnacle of the whole story of Operation Snow White, and you can – people can definitely look at it.

00:03:53.480 There's other podcasts that go into this in-depth.

00:03:55.700 Essentially, you had two main characters who were doing the most of the primary infiltration.

00:04:01.280 And by the time they had – were at the top level and they were even being interrogated by the FBI because people were suspicious about these two people that were Scientologists who had infiltrated the government,

00:04:10.760 essentially there was one person who – one of the two people who wanted to come forward and be a whistleblower on the Church of Scientology.

00:04:20.780 The Church of Scientology got word of that, and they actually held this person in solitary confinement under – which is illegal.

00:04:27.660 It's kidnapping.

00:04:29.080 And this is something that has been a regular basis all throughout the history of the Church of Scientology.

00:04:33.720 It happened to Mike Rinder.

00:04:34.840 It happened to multiple other people who were held in a facility against their will.

00:04:39.700 A lot of people think that's what's currently happening to Shelley Miscavige, and we'll definitely jump into that in a second.

00:04:45.180 But really what ended up happening is that spies usually are good at a couple things.

00:04:49.800 They're good at spying, and they're also good at escaping.

00:04:52.380 So this person, even though they're held in confines by the Church of Scientology, this person ended up escaping.

00:04:59.280 And he went to the government, spilled all the beans, and essentially you had a raid done by the FBI with roughly about 150 agents

00:05:08.140 who went into a couple different Scientology headquarters facilities.

00:05:12.040 They filled up probably a U-Haul moving truck worth of documents.

00:05:15.880 And it was a very bad PR issue for the Church of Scientology.

00:05:20.660 What ended up happening – how that's connected is that if you move forward a couple decades,

00:05:24.480 L. Ron Hubbard passed away.

00:05:26.300 David Miscavige was roughly around 21 years old at the time, and he really took over Scientology and really ruled with an iron fist.

00:05:33.380 I mean he really – anybody that was in any sort of – slightly opposed to him, he threw them to the wayside,

00:05:40.540 had them pretty much destroyed, and he really rose to power, and he still is the head of Scientology to this day.

00:05:49.220 And where this goes from here was the issue of Scientology's tax-exempt status.

00:05:54.380 There's a moment – I'm not exactly – I can't remember exactly what year it was, but essentially because Scientology had their tax-exempt status revote,

00:06:03.820 they had a tax bill that was bigger than all of their assets put together.

00:06:09.000 So you put two and two together, that's an accounting issue.

00:06:11.280 That means that Scientology is not sustainable.

00:06:14.280 So Scientology waged a war with the IRS that – and you think about – you get a letter from the IRS and just the initial anxiety.

00:06:22.600 Oh, no, you're getting audited.

00:06:23.860 You know, we had the story – you think about the story that just broke, what was it, about a year ago, about the IRS, 70,000 new IRS agents.

00:06:30.940 And you think about how people are like, oh, my gosh, that's so nervous.

00:06:34.180 Well, Scientology, they're like, we're going after the IRS.

00:06:37.660 And they – you had roughly about 2,000 lawsuits from individual people all against the IRS, but they didn't stop there.

00:06:45.400 They thought, well, no, we're not just going to sue the IRS.

00:06:48.040 We are going to find out who the agents are, and we're going to sue them.

00:06:51.740 So you had personal suits against people for all sorts of different reasons.

00:06:56.400 So you had people who are IRS agents who are just – this is their nine-to-five, right?

00:07:01.020 This is how I can provide for my family.

00:07:02.540 And all of a sudden, you have people outside of your window who are spying on you, who are going through your garbage, who are finding every little thing about you.

00:07:09.580 And now it's hitting you from all of these different angles.

00:07:13.000 So in summary, eventually they were told – the head of the IRS, I can't remember his name, but he was basically told that they just renew Scientology's tax-exempt status.

00:07:23.180 This will just all go away.

00:07:25.160 And they did.

00:07:26.220 And you'll see – you can actually look this up online.

00:07:28.980 There's this Scientology convention.

00:07:31.020 Just – you should watch just a little bit of the video.

00:07:32.380 It shows you the culture.

00:07:34.640 It's very similar to North Korea with how everyone just applauds on command. 0.90

00:07:39.020 I mean it's hard to even describe.

00:07:40.660 You'd have to see it.

00:07:41.760 But there's this pinnacle moment.

00:07:43.240 And Mike Rinder talks about it in his book where Miscavige basically says, the war is over.

00:07:49.080 And all these fireworks go off.

00:07:50.460 And everyone does this crazy thunderous applause.

00:07:52.880 And so they got their tax-exempt status back.

00:07:56.960 And so ever since, their tax bill went away.

00:07:59.700 But not only that, every bit of money that they made since then, when it comes to the bridge to total freedom, when it comes to all the different real estate purchases around the world, which is how they moved a lot of their money around, all that is currently tax-free under the guise of a religious institution.

00:08:22.880 Tell us a little bit more.

00:08:31.340 You mentioned Shelly.

00:08:32.420 I don't know if it's Miscavige, Miscavige.

00:08:34.480 But – so basically there is not even a conspiracy, but I guess questions about Shelly because this is the wife of David who you said is the head of Scientology, has been for a very long time.

00:08:45.420 Basically she disappeared from public life in 2006.

00:08:48.360 People haven't seen her.

00:08:49.720 You mentioned Leah Romini.

00:08:50.700 She was someone who was in Scientology, now speaks out about the toxicity, the dangers of Scientology.

00:08:56.680 And she tweeted earlier this year.

00:08:59.380 She said, today is Shelly Miscavige's 62nd birthday.

00:09:04.100 The last time Shelly was seen in public, she was 43.

00:09:06.480 I hope I can with Shelly happy birthday in person one day.

00:09:08.500 Until then, I will keep fighting for my friend's freedom no matter what.

00:09:10.720 So what do we think is going on here?

00:09:15.560 Andrew, what do you think about that?

00:09:17.120 Yeah, I honestly have no idea.

00:09:18.900 Yeah, I think she was last seen in public in 2007.

00:09:22.960 I think 2013 there was like a welfare check done by the Los Angeles Police Department.

00:09:28.200 Honestly, I have no idea where she is in terms of the fair game doctrine given by Scientology that if someone is a threat to Scientology or the Church of Scientology, there's essentially no restrictions, right?

00:09:41.100 But intimidate, do what you can in order to keep them quiet.

00:09:45.000 I don't know.

00:09:45.440 I can only surmise maybe she knows something that could be extremely damaging and she's hidden somewhere.

00:09:50.920 Yeah.

00:09:51.500 Maybe she's dead. 0.94

00:09:53.080 I don't know. 0.96

00:09:53.920 I really hope she isn't dead.

00:09:56.100 Yeah.

00:09:56.260 But that's scary to think there's been like a lack of intent investigation into the disappearance of someone who was public.

00:10:06.660 I mean, that's a little strange, right?

00:10:10.120 Absolutely.

00:10:10.920 I mean, there's history of that within Scientology.

00:10:13.420 Like people don't even know where L. Ron Hubbard was for the longest time.

00:10:16.140 Was he living here in California?

00:10:17.320 Was he living there?

00:10:18.140 He was living on a ship.

00:10:19.100 He was evading tax situations like, I mean, who knows what the Church of Scientology is telling people.

00:10:27.640 They could just be saying, oh, she's fine.

00:10:28.760 She just doesn't want to talk.

00:10:29.740 But yeah, there should be an intense investigation because this is someone who's made in the image of God.

00:10:34.820 And God says, thou shalt not murder.

00:10:37.120 And if someone murders a human being, there needs to be justice.

00:10:40.320 So even if we don't know, though, in this life what happened to her, I know and I have faith in God that at the consummation of all things,

00:10:46.960 that justice will occur for Shelley Miscavige and those who hurt her, they will actually have to stand and hold an account before God.

00:10:56.260 And that's a terrifying to behold, but that is something that will happen one day.

00:11:00.360 And we actually, as Christians, have faith in that.

00:11:02.820 So I pray, though, that justice occurs in this life, but regardless, it will occur one day.

00:11:07.580 Yeah.

00:11:07.920 Tell us a little bit more about some of the tactics by Scientologists to kind of intimidate people, to torment people.

00:11:16.960 And to silence, I don't know how much y'all know about this, but I've just heard there's also just with the controlling nature of its own members.

00:11:27.140 I think I saw it in that Netflix documentary that you were talking about, basically forcing parents to abandon their children, leave them in the care of strangers that they don't know.

00:11:38.820 They're always trying to try to divide these relationships that might end up being a threat, even if it's a parent-child relationship or, excuse me, they will encourage abortion. 0.53

00:11:51.680 Or I've even heard stories of forced abortion in some cases.

00:11:55.580 I'm not sure if that's in the name of some kind of threat to this person's membership or in the name of success or what it is.

00:12:02.580 But there's a lot of coercion, and it seems like a lot of criminality and violence that goes on within Scientology.

00:12:10.240 Yeah.

00:12:10.880 Well, it's interesting you mentioned the forced abortion, the actress who plays the lead role in The Handmaid's Tale.

00:12:16.900 Yes.

00:12:17.280 I can't remember her name off the top of my head.

00:12:19.260 But yes, it's funny because that whole premise, you know, you think about people who protest an abortion law, they always get in The Handmaid's Tale office. 0.57

00:12:28.560 They're always feeling those evil Christians who want to force women in red cloaks. 1.00

00:12:33.340 But when you look at reality is that she's an active Scientologist, and there's numerous accounts, publicly independent lines of testimony, witness verified records of women who are in the Sea Org.

00:12:43.960 They end up getting pregnant, and the Scientology, like, they get forced to have an abortion.

00:12:49.480 So literally, it's one of the ultimate examples, too, of projecting, hey, I want to go ahead and articulate this idea to demonize one group when it's the fact the very religion that I'm doing is forcing women to get abortions. 0.75

00:13:01.760 And I think, too, a lot of it just comes down to worldview.

00:13:03.900 When you look at even a lot of the cases of abuse of people who – of children who grew up in Scientology, again, it's a worldview issue.

00:13:11.500 It's how – what are – how does Scientology view children?

00:13:15.920 They view them as grown-up adults who are trapped in children's bodies.

00:13:20.920 That's how they view their own children.

00:13:23.660 And so that would go very part and parcel to how you deal with them, how you punish them, how you train them.

00:13:29.460 There's sort of no – you're not really allowed to be a child.

00:13:32.940 There's no level of innocence or growing up, and that's really articulated in a lot of the episodes of Scientology, the Aftermath.

00:13:39.460 But honestly, you even see this, too, articulated in the relationship that Tom Cruise has had with the media.

00:13:45.480 So Tom Cruise initially – everyone knows he was married to Nicole Kidman.

00:13:50.300 He met her on the set of Days of Thunder.

00:13:54.700 That's when they're – the NASCAR movie, and that's when their relationship really flourished.

00:13:58.540 Well, really, Miscavige at the time was really nervous about that relationship because, one, Nicole Kidman was not a Scientologist.

00:14:07.700 And what ended up really even derilling that relationship was the fact that I believe Nicole Kidman's father was on the board of some sort of psychiatry institution, which that would have put into the fair game tactic.

00:14:18.600 That would call for disconnection because there is even a loose association.

00:14:23.940 This is not – Nicole Kidman isn't specific on publicly collaborating with her dad.

00:14:29.400 It just so happens her dad is this.

00:14:30.940 She's an actress, right? 0.86

00:14:32.040 You think all the scenarios that would lead up to that.

00:14:34.200 So that would be also in a very public eye how disconnection would happen.

00:14:39.620 But even on the most personal level, if anyone has watched Scientology of the Aftermath, you would see just the devastation of just everyday people.

00:14:49.540 Like I got – there's multiple times in that show, like I'm – even people who aren't Christian, like you see the hurt and the devastation.

00:14:56.720 Like there's times I'm watching that show like just with tears down my eyes.

00:15:00.520 I feel like I'm getting emotional just talking about it, but that's when you show like these are people who are made in the image of God.

00:15:06.860 And when you see this counterfeit, like as a Christian, like it makes me angry because there's levels where you see like a scripture that says like the gods – those who have gone – the sorrows of those who have gone after another God will multiply. 0.95

00:15:20.120 And so you see that on like a theological issue, but when you see people actually dealing with it, it's – you can only – your heart can only break for them.

00:15:28.160 And in fact, there's a guy, Aaron Smith, he was on the Lex Friedman podcast not too long ago, just sort of talking in Scientology when he gives his own story of how he lost the relationship with his brother.

00:15:40.180 Like I've heard that story multiple times, and there's this moment where all of a sudden I'm listening to the podcast, and all of a sudden it goes silent.

00:15:47.720 I'm like, what, is there something wrong with my volume?

00:15:49.340 I'm like, oh no, he's telling the story like with his brother again about how he lost the relationship with his brother.

00:15:54.720 And yeah, I mean it's definitely heartbreaking.

00:15:58.420 I think honestly this is where as a ministry, as Christians, where we differ from people like Leah and Mike Rinder and guys like Aaron Smith.

00:16:08.140 Like I have so much appreciation for what they do, exposing the abuses of Scientology.

00:16:14.600 I think because they aren't beginning with the fundamental presupposition that these people are made in the image of God, they're the Mago Dei, and that ultimately Jesus Christ is the hope of the world and the hope for those who are both in Scientology, for those who have come out of Scientology.

00:16:29.580 You can't, like how do you give an ultimate accounting?

00:16:33.540 Like where do you, what's your fundamental presupposition or starting point to even point out spiritual abuse to begin with?

00:16:39.920 You know, the existence of a counterfeit predicates the authenticity of an original.

00:16:44.500 And so what you end up seeing is that what people are longing for and what they end up getting is a result of investing into a counterfeit.

00:16:53.280 And that's why it's important, we see it prominent, not to approach the subjects of the cults from a point of neutrality, but from the presupposition that Jesus Christ is King of Kings, Lord of Lords.

00:17:06.600 He is the hope of the world.

00:17:07.640 He is the hope for all those who put their faith in him.

00:17:10.500 He is the hope for all those who have experienced spiritual trauma and the abuse.

00:17:13.640 He is the authentic in the replacement to the counterfeit.

00:17:18.100 And so one of the things, Andrew, let's just jump in here a second.

00:17:20.380 The reason why I was kind of mentioning the issue of tax-exempt status, I believe this is where Leah, Mike, those who are advocating right now, and Mike talked about this on the podcast, where he, his real mission and motivation right now is to try and get the IRS to revoke Scientology's tax-exempt status again.

00:17:42.540 And I think what happens is that a lot of people who are secular, who deal with the issue of the cults, they tend to sort of look to the state as the main arbiter between to kind of arbitrate and deal with these things out.

00:17:56.060 What ends up happening is that if the position of morality ends with the state, then you are ultimately leaving up to the state to decide what is loving your neighbor, what is telling the truth, what is bearing false witness.

00:18:09.460 And there's been multiple accounts, too, where you've seen the state involved, where they have not handled, they have not spoken in justice, like they haven't really sought out justice for people who are victims of cults.

00:18:22.280 There is a HBO documentary, I'm trying to think of the name of the cult, it was Luz del Mundo, I think it was called, and it was this cult that was based out of Mexico that all these women were child brides.

00:18:38.020 And they came forward and exposed the abuses of just really the predatory nature of these quote-unquote apostles.

00:18:44.980 And they were told during this trial that this person would receive justice, they would not get a plea bargain.

00:18:52.360 And at the very end of this case, the state changed their mind, the state of California, and said, nope, we're actually going to give this apostle a plea bargain.

00:19:00.680 So you constantly see those who leave the arbitration for dealing with cult abuse in the hands of the state.

00:19:07.580 The state has been a terrible and inconsistent, unequal just and weights, really, arbiter when it comes to dealing with the cults.

00:19:17.120 I want to just kick it back just a little bit in terms of what Ali was asking with family separation or even forced abortions.

00:19:35.900 You mentioned the C-Org, Jerry, and I think that's a distinction that we have to help the listeners understand.

00:19:41.480 There's something called the C-Organization, which is a religious order within the Church of Scientology, which is their working arm, essentially.

00:19:47.680 Remember we talked about the Bridge of Total Freedom.

00:19:49.320 The Bridge of Total Freedom costs so much money.

00:19:52.160 So if you can't pay for it, you might as well sign what is called the Billion-Year Contract and devote your life to the Church of Scientology so that you can work the whole time in order to pay for those auditing sessions so you can go up the Bridge of Total Freedom.

00:20:03.700 And they pay these people very slim, mainly just living.

00:20:06.900 You can go and look at places in Clearwater, Florida.

00:20:09.820 There's videos on YouTube where there's apartment buildings where people are just – they're fully bought by the Church of Scientology and they're sitting there living inside these buildings, not in good conditions.

00:20:18.040 If you listen to our episode that we did with Mike Rinder, he clearly describes in his book A Billion Years and in the interview what it was like living aboard – I believe it was the Apollo, what he was on, the same boat that L. Ron Hubbard was on, what the living quarters were like for the members of the C-Org. 0.99

00:20:32.100 But essentially in order for the Church of Scientology to function, it functions off of the people in the C-Org.

00:20:38.180 And so when people in the C-Org engage in sexual relation and people get pregnant, the organization doesn't like that because it takes time away from the organization.

00:20:47.440 You want total devotion to the organization and those within the C-Org also want to devote themselves.

00:20:52.440 I mean these people end up working over 100 hours a week.

00:20:55.120 They get worked down to the grave.

00:20:56.980 So essentially what happens is families are split.

00:20:59.420 There's even children from the C-Org that just go into specific schools for the Church of Scientology and these people never see their parents again and they're raised essentially by a cult.

00:21:08.500 Like that's the reality of what's going on and these children are put even to like forced labor, building specific things.

00:21:15.080 Like Jerry said, there are these like full-grown reincarnated beings trapped inside a little child's body.

00:21:21.500 So that's the reality of what is going on and like Jerry said, we live in a society today where since we've gone so far from the Word of God, we don't actually have a standard in order to actually bring justice to what is happening to these little image bearers. 0.99

00:21:37.420 We said that they're protected under a form of religious freedom, but according to the Bible, that is something that these children should be free from, from a cult that is destroying their lives.

00:21:47.720 And Mike Rinder even said it in a billion years.

00:21:50.440 He wrote that book.

00:21:51.480 It's right in the beginning.

00:21:52.120 He says he wrote it so that if his children ever want to know about him even after he's dead, like that's his plea to them.

00:21:59.200 Like this is what my story is.

00:22:00.980 They have animosity for him.

00:22:03.300 Yeah.

00:22:03.740 And he wrote that just so maybe one day they could pick it up.

00:22:06.560 And I believe they're still in within Scientology.

00:22:09.000 They can pick it up.

00:22:09.680 They can read it.

00:22:10.740 And hopefully they can know him a little bit better.

00:22:12.520 So that just gives you an idea, just that right there.

00:22:15.240 And Mike Rinder's struggle to get his connection back with his family of what happens within the family unit in the Sea Org and in Church of Scientology.

00:22:24.000 Yeah.

00:22:24.260 I just want to read this story that I found.

00:22:26.780 It was reported by ABC.

00:22:30.060 This woman who joined Scientology at a very young age sued Scientology for forcing her to have an abortion.

00:22:38.900 And the case ended up being settled.

00:22:42.780 But her name was Laura DeCrescenzo.

00:22:46.120 And this was reported in 2018.

00:22:49.020 DeCrescenzo signed Scientology's billion-year contract when she was just 12 years old, moving out of her parents' home in New Mexico.

00:22:58.100 I don't even know how in the world this could happen.

00:23:00.700 But an into Scientology's PAC base in Hollywood, DeCrescenzo alleged in her lawsuit that she was falsely imprisoned, isolated from her family at times, subjected to rigid discipline in the Rehabilitation Project force, and forced to have an abortion when she became pregnant as a teenager.

00:23:19.880 In court papers, attorneys for Scientology denied each and every allegation.

00:23:24.700 She married another member of the Sea Org at 16, became pregnant at 17.

00:23:33.940 And these stories really aren't that uncommon.

00:23:37.120 She certainly isn't the only one to make these accusations.

00:23:41.020 Was there anything in there that you guys feel like you need to break down?

00:23:44.100 I know you talked about the Sea Org and the billion-year contract.

00:23:48.460 Is there anything else in there that people need to understand?

00:23:51.620 I would say just worldview.

00:23:57.520 I mean, if you are grown up teaching, and if you're parents, and if you have a husband and wife, and you are true believers in Scientology, you really believe that your child is just an adult trapped in this body.

00:24:12.920 So if you're 12 years old, you think about what sort of decisions do you have to make independently when you're 12 years old in a perfect world, right?

00:24:20.560 I mean, definitely not signing any sort of contract that's worth a billion years.

00:24:25.360 I mean, 12 divided by a billion.

00:24:26.780 I don't know.

00:24:27.520 My mouth is a little bit rusty at the moment.

00:24:29.380 Yeah.

00:24:29.640 But the reality is that this is what they believe.

00:24:32.740 And again, it's very easy to hear something like that. 0.99

00:24:36.600 Like, you're crazy. 0.97

00:24:37.540 How could you let your child sign this contract and all this sort of stuff happen? 0.93

00:24:41.140 But this is what happens when whether Scientology or any of these groups where you become a true believer and get radicalized, like you don't think about this sort of thing until you get on the outside.

00:24:51.920 And then when you actually wake up, there's – imagine like the parents – imagine coming out of Scientology.

00:24:58.060 If they're the parents and they come out of Scientology, even if they're not Christian, and say they're in a focus group with Leah and Mike and say they're on Scientology, the aftermath of the reunion episode, that happens.

00:25:08.600 Imagine them having to explain, I let all this happen to my child, and I thought this was a good thing.

00:25:16.380 Can you imagine the guilt and the imagine the shame?

00:25:18.660 That's just one thing you have to do with.

00:25:20.760 So definitely just that fundamental worldview issue, that would be the primary thing.

00:25:25.400 And it just – again, this is just people are just – they're – it's very cut and dry, black and white.

00:25:32.260 This is L. Ron Hubbard's policy.

00:25:33.740 It doesn't matter what the relationship, whether it's child to parent, parent to child, parent to grandparent, any sort of relationship, sometimes even with pets, that they enact the fair game and disconnection.

00:25:46.720 What are your thoughts real quickly, Andrew?

00:25:48.660 Yeah, because we – once we deny biblical principles, our society goes down a slippery slope.

00:25:54.840 And what I mean by that is the family government is something instituted by God where your children are yours, essentially, that you are to raise them in the fear and admonition of the Lord.

00:26:04.980 So if you think – if you deny biblical principles and if you think Scientology is weird, well, what we have to understand is if our government isn't founded upon biblical principles and your children aren't yours, then they then belong to the state.

00:26:16.940 You can look at China.

00:26:18.400 Very similar things are happening.

00:26:19.660 The children aren't necessarily belonging to their parents.

00:26:22.600 They're indoctrinated through specific communist schools with communist ideology.

00:26:27.740 So that's the reality of the situation is that the reason why we're angry about Scientology and the things that are going on is because we live in a nation that is built upon Christian principles.

00:26:37.040 But those are slowly dissolving.

00:26:38.360 I mean we interviewed Aonmi Park and she gave us very chilling warnings from her book, While Time Remains.

00:26:45.120 And she's saying we're headed down a very similar path, right, where you can't say this, you can't say that, you got to believe this, you got to believe that.

00:26:50.720 Certain things are being taught through public school systems that influence the way people are relating to one another, creating forms of conflict through intersectionality, taking away rights of individuals, and soon maybe even taking away the rights of the family in order to raise their children in the fear and admonition of the Lord.

00:27:08.600 So the reality of the world that we're living in is that our government isn't too far off from Scientology.

00:27:13.940 The only thing that's keeping our government at bay, I'd say, is the hand of Christ and the blessings that we have inherited through the principles of a biblical nation from the beginning of our society.

00:27:22.800 So if it bothers you, we need to do something about it as Christians.

00:27:26.280 We can't stay silent.

00:27:27.400 We should be vocal, act as the rod to the state, bearing the truth to our local magistrates and telling them we need to repent of the things that we're doing and follow God in A, B, and C in order for our society to flourish.

00:27:41.000 Yeah, even though that would be a really good place to end, I still have another question that I've been hanging on to, and probably it will be my last question, but we'll just see.

00:27:51.200 What is it, do you think, about Scientology that is so attractive for people who are already rich and powerful?

00:27:57.640 I understand the appeal for people who want to be rich and powerful, who maybe are struggling in their acting career.

00:28:03.020 But it's a two-part question, kind of, because you see, okay, Tom Cruise and you see John Travolta, Elizabeth Moss.

00:28:13.240 Why are they attracted to Scientology and not just self-help or not just some other kind of like, you know, self-promotion, self-improvement program?

00:28:24.480 Why are they in Scientology?

00:28:25.980 I'll just let you answer that first part of the question, and then I'll get to my second part.

00:28:32.960 Andrew, go for that, man.

00:28:34.720 Okay, yeah.

00:28:35.280 So the reason why is because Scientology, and then Mike Rinder talks about it in his book, he was also telling us in the interview, is Scientology, like, headhunts people.

00:28:42.580 Like, they go to them.

00:28:43.820 They want – they're very pragmatic, like I was saying earlier.

00:28:46.220 They want people who are in positions of, quote, unquote, power in order to be spokesperson for Scientology.

00:28:53.000 Like John Travolta is a good example that's used in the Billion Years book where this guy was not even really a full believer in Scientology, yet they kept going after him and going after him and trying to headhunt him down.

00:29:04.160 Even David Beckham, guys, they tried to get David Beckham to be part of the Church of Scientology at their headquarters.

00:29:09.080 They had built a soccer stadium just for him, and he never ended up showing, like not a stadium, like a soccer field or whatever.

00:29:16.660 He ended up never showing.

00:29:17.540 He's like, I don't want to be a part of this.

00:29:20.120 So I'd say they headhunt people, but I think what the – why people are appealed to it is something that we talked about earlier is that because we are sinners, there is a veil, right, between man and God.

00:29:32.440 Jesus Christ destroyed the veil, but only where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

00:29:37.540 What every other cult seeks to do is say, look, there's a problem with humanity, and this is how you can fix it.

00:29:43.980 So they're appealing to an innate sense within the person that there is something wrong, and this is how I can fix it, and that's why people are appealed to it.

00:29:52.280 There's something that they believe that they can do in order to achieve some form of divinity or godhood.

00:29:58.500 I mean Satan said it to Eve in the garden.

00:30:00.760 He said, God doesn't want you to take of that fruit because he knows you will be just like him knowing both good and evil.

00:30:06.200 It appeals to the very innate sense of our fallen nature to say, no, I don't need God to achieve these things.

00:30:13.340 I can actually do it myself through these elementary principles which are described in Colossians 2.

00:30:18.840 So I'd say that's what it is.

00:30:20.420 We're fallen human beings, and that's why they're pulled to it, but Jesus Christ is the only solution.

00:30:25.640 Yeah, and I'll just say real quickly as we wrap up here, Allie, is that it's really an issue of looking at the – starting with the authentic, right?

00:30:33.460 So it's very easy to become – it feels like there's this pressure that you have to become an expert on every single cult.

00:30:39.680 Well, not really.

00:30:40.520 It's good to be – it's better to actually be more familiar with the authentic.

00:30:44.720 Like what does the Bible actually say about this?

00:30:46.460 Like what's the ultimate foundation of truth?

00:30:48.020 So you look at – what does it say in the book of James about favoritism?

00:30:51.440 It says that if you end up having someone who's a rich person who has all this decor sitting in the very front of your house, church, or congregation at the time in the first century, but you say to the poor person, the beggar in the back, no, you sit in the back.

00:31:06.000 You sit in the back where no one else can really see you.

00:31:08.520 Like that's condemned.

00:31:09.740 Like James spoke out against that.

00:31:12.100 But when in Scientology, you have the exact opposite of that.

00:31:16.520 So when you look at how celebrities like Mike – that Tom Cruise, John Travolta – in fact, this is articulated too in the documentary Going Clear.

00:31:24.760 I think it was Tom Cruise's 42nd birthday where he's on this private yacht.

00:31:28.400 Everyone's applauding his everything.

00:31:29.960 He's got servants beckoning to his every call.

00:31:32.760 It is one of his mansions or Pinal Suites that the Scientology fully funds.

00:31:37.780 That's a very – that treatment of Tom Cruise is polar opposite of somebody like Andrew mentioned who's over in Clearwater, Florida, who's living on whatever the wage is, like 50 bucks a week on minuscule things.

00:31:48.300 You don't see that.

00:31:49.420 In fact, one of the most interesting things too is that when I watched the documentary Going Clear, I rewatched it again.

00:31:54.800 When you see the interactions that Mike Rinder has with this BBC reporter, you look at his face.

00:32:01.720 He looks 20 years older – and this is from 20 years ago.

00:32:06.260 Mike looks 20 years older than he did in our interview with him.

00:32:10.220 Like that's the amount of sleep deprivation, like abuse that people face.

00:32:15.260 So there's – that's one of the distinctions is that there's completely radical unjust weights and measures if you're a rich, powerful person or celebrity versus someone who's just on the outskirts.

00:32:24.780 And I guess – I mean this answers my second question is that, okay, I guess I understand, you know, everyone wants to exchange – who is not in Christ, everyone wants to exchange the God of Scripture for the God of self.

00:32:46.480 It manifests itself, I guess, in different ways, some people through Scientology.

00:32:50.980 And so I understand if you're like going up these rungs, you're getting more and more power, you attribute that to Scientology, you stay in it.

00:32:57.620 But someone like – someone who is in Scientology, they're guaranteed all of the success and prominence.

00:33:03.740 You know, they're love-bombed.

00:33:05.060 But you realize at a certain point that this isn't really working.

00:33:07.980 Like there's this guy, Danny Masterson.

00:33:10.260 He was a part of that 70s show.

00:33:11.660 Apparently, he is on trial for rape as we're recording this.

00:33:15.880 We don't know the conclusion of all of this, of raping multiple women.

00:33:19.860 He relied, according to the AP, on his prominence in the Church of Scientology to avoid consequences for years.

00:33:25.640 This, again, is another example of what you're talking about, the state just not caring for victims.

00:33:31.020 But, okay, this person, he's high up in Scientology.

00:33:34.620 He's been able to rely on his prominence in Scientology to avoid these consequences.

00:33:39.880 But he's not – no one knows who he is anymore.

00:33:42.400 Like he obviously hasn't become more successful.

00:33:44.620 He hasn't gained more prominence.

00:33:46.400 He hasn't booked all of these jobs.

00:33:49.040 Like at some point, it's a little bit odd.

00:33:51.960 Like don't you look around and say, oh, they promised that I was going to be this huge star like Tom Cruise.

00:33:58.180 No one knows who I am since that 70s show or Joy Vila or any of those people.

00:34:03.920 Like I guess it's just delusional.

00:34:06.760 I don't know.

00:34:07.340 I guess you're just so far in it that you just are detached from reality.

00:34:11.620 Yeah, I mean there's a YouTube channel I'm just going to give a plug for.

00:34:18.000 I've never talked to this guy, but it's a YouTube channel called Growing Up in Scientology.

00:34:21.740 And the host of that channel, he does daily content.

00:34:24.520 He's done a lot of really in-depth analysis of that specific trial.

00:34:29.200 To be honest, I've only seen it in passing.

00:34:31.900 I've seen occasionally Mike Rinder will tweet or Leo will tweet something about that.

00:34:37.820 But I do know a lot of what they are saying is that there are fundamental presuppositions in Scientology, Ron Hubbard's teachings,

00:34:46.300 but also just in general like what – how going up the bridge, how it changes you psychologically and even mentally

00:34:53.900 where you sort of think that your actions are – don't have consequence.

00:35:01.720 And so I believe a lot of what they've articulated is the beliefs of Scientology are very part and parcel to this rape case from what I've seen.

00:35:10.820 Andrew, what are your thoughts?

00:35:11.860 Yeah, I just think that there's promises that people are given within any cult-like situation.

00:35:20.760 And within a cult, typically the only people who are really benefiting are at the top of the pyramid, right?

00:35:26.960 We see that all over the place.

00:35:29.440 So other people are going to suffer and their life is not necessarily going to work out for them.

00:35:35.480 And this man is just one example of that.

00:35:38.540 I mean sometimes the Lord lets people prosper.

00:35:41.860 For a time, and then he takes it all the way from them in form of judgment.

00:35:46.680 So that's something that I see happening with Danny.

00:35:49.320 I didn't even know about this until you just started talking about this, Allie.

00:35:51.720 So, man, I pray that justice occurs, that he goes to court.

00:35:57.920 I don't even know really what's going on with the situation and that justice occurs.

00:36:01.620 So, yeah, that just happens.

00:36:02.980 There's always empty promises within a cult.

00:36:04.880 But the only people who mainly really benefit from the cult are the people up top.

00:36:08.020 Like, he wasn't fully up top.

00:36:09.960 He was just being used by the cult as propaganda.

00:36:13.920 Yeah.

00:36:14.340 And again, just like the great distinction between a cult like this and Christianity, that Christianity is so up front that we say, hey, like, you know what?

00:36:23.960 You're actually going to lose.

00:36:25.520 You're going to lose a lot of your success and possibly your material wealth.

00:36:30.360 You could possibly lose everything for following Christ.

00:36:34.160 And we're not guaranteeing you success at all.

00:36:36.280 We're not guaranteeing you certainly like a good reputation or power or prominence.

00:36:41.160 In fact, you could lose everything if you follow Christ.

00:36:44.140 We're not promising anything in this life except for forgiveness, freedom from your sins, the joy that comes with chasing after God.

00:36:52.320 That's what you get.

00:36:53.660 We're not promising you anything else.

00:36:55.220 And Christianity is so up front about that, that our reward ultimately, fully, is eternal.

00:37:01.620 And again, just, I mean, every cult, but every form of worshiping the God of self rather than the God of Scripture flips the gospel on its head and offers you something temporary in exchange for your soul.

00:37:15.340 And, I mean, we're asked this.

00:37:16.720 What does it profit a man to gain the entire world, whether it's in the form of Scientology, whether it's in the form of worshiping wealth, whatever it is, but lose his soul?

00:37:25.920 So I appreciate this.

00:37:27.400 This was a really great two-part rundown that we did.

00:37:30.120 There's so much more to talk about with Scientology, just like anything else.

00:37:33.860 But I do hope people will go and listen to y'all's episodes that you've already dedicated to Scientology, listen to some of the people that have had those firsthand experiences.

00:37:42.780 There's always more to learn.

00:37:44.240 And as always, we pray for these people.

00:37:46.500 We pray for, you know, David Miscavige.

00:37:49.000 Like, we pray.

00:37:49.860 He's, you know, made in the image of God.

00:37:51.540 We pray that God would soften his heart, that he would turn to Christ.

00:37:54.340 That's what we pray for all these people.

00:37:55.860 So thank you guys so much.

00:37:57.460 I really appreciate it.

00:37:59.640 Absolutely.

00:38:00.000 Thanks for having us on, Allie.

00:38:00.980 Hey, Relatables and Relatables.

00:38:16.040 If you could please leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to Relatable, that would mean so much to us.

00:38:22.420 And it really does help the show.

00:38:24.700 Also, if you haven't subscribed to our YouTube channel, please do.

00:38:29.860 Thanks.

00:38:30.380 Bye-bye.

00:38:31.380 Bye-bye.

00:38:47.740 Bye-bye.

00:38:48.260 Bye-bye.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - September 28, 2023

Ep 881 ｜ Scientology, Rape Cover-Ups, & Forced Abortions ｜ Guests： Jeremiah Roberts & Andrew Soncrant of 'Cultish' (Part Two)

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