Jeremiah Roberts and Andrew Songkrant are back with part two of their two-part series on the Church of Scientology. In this episode, they discuss some of the conspiracies within the cult, including the disappearance of L. Ron Hubbard's wife, the Operation Snow White spy ring, and the cover-up of an alleged CIA spy ring.
00:00:11.840There are a lot of stories like this within Scientology, as well as tales of abuse, mistreatment, neglect.
00:00:18.700We need to peel back the layers on this and look at what's really going on.
00:00:23.760And again, why it really matters and how Christianity and Christianity alone offers the true freedom that people are trying but failing to find in cults like Scientology.
00:00:36.420We're back with Jeremiah Roberts and Andrew Songkrant.
00:00:39.200This is part two of the two-part series on Scientology.
00:00:42.580They're the host of the Cultish podcast, which I highly recommend.
00:00:45.940This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
00:00:53.760So this is going to be the moment we're going to maybe jump in and kind of get a little tinfoil hat-ish, kind of, you know, get into the conspiracy world.
00:01:12.160And so when you look at—so it was around 1967 after L. Ron Hubbard had established the Church of Scientology.
00:01:19.600The IRS had revoked its tax-exempt status, and this would—I think this would have been a slap in the face to L. Ron Hubbard giving what he had very, on a matter of public record, seeing he wanted to utilize a religion as a way to obtain wealth, to be rich, you know, whatever his motives—true motives were.
00:01:39.020And so what ends up happening is because of the fact that they have their IRS tax-exempt status, you basically had a period of years where you had multiple—you think about Watergate.
00:01:50.620You had just a small little, like, maybe like 12 or so people who, you know, spied on another campaign, and you think everything could happen with the Nixon administration.
00:02:00.180You had roughly around 5,000—I think 5,000 members of the Church of Scientology who are actively involved on multiple different fronts in the government, not just the Internal Revenue Service, but just trying to obtain documents, trying to forge documents, basically everything to take revenge, lash back, and do whatever needs necessary to get their tax-exempt status back.
00:02:23.920It's a pretty wild story of infiltration. In fact, when I was initially doing my research, I was thinking, how have they not made a movie about this?
00:02:32.260Well, I mean, if they did make a movie, it probably wouldn't be starring Tom Cruise, for sure.
00:02:36.180But, yeah, Andrew, how would you describe a very cliff-notes version of this? Because this is—you did some research on this.
00:02:43.700How would you kind of describe very cliff-notes what happened? Because it's connected to some of the other issues with Scientology and the tax-exempt status.
00:02:49.460Yeah, I think that you did a pretty good job, actually, examining the cliff notes.
00:02:53.920But what I find interesting is that, first, there was something written by L. Ron Hubbard in terms of a doctrine that was put forth that, from this doctrine, they extrapolated the Operation Snow White to occur.
00:03:09.240And what's actually funny from it is that L. Ron Hubbard's wife kind of took the fall for it, and he kind of threw her under the bus, being like, I didn't tell them to go do this.
00:03:18.820I just actually just created this doctrine that they extrapolated from.
00:03:21.460I think you actually did a really good job with that cliff-notes version.
00:03:24.240But when we're even talking about in terms of conspiracy, we're not referring to conspiracies with no verifiable evidence.
00:03:30.800We're talking like conspiracies in terms of how Joseph's brothers conspired against him to throw him into a pit, actual historical conspiracies where the Church of Scientology conspired against the United States government.
00:03:41.700And this is things that actually did happen.
00:03:43.400It's important to understand that distinction as well.
00:03:45.500Yeah, and so what ends up – really what ends up happening at the very pinnacle of the whole story of Operation Snow White, and you can – people can definitely look at it.
00:03:53.480There's other podcasts that go into this in-depth.
00:03:55.700Essentially, you had two main characters who were doing the most of the primary infiltration.
00:04:01.280And by the time they had – were at the top level and they were even being interrogated by the FBI because people were suspicious about these two people that were Scientologists who had infiltrated the government,
00:04:10.760essentially there was one person who – one of the two people who wanted to come forward and be a whistleblower on the Church of Scientology.
00:04:20.780The Church of Scientology got word of that, and they actually held this person in solitary confinement under – which is illegal.
00:05:26.300David Miscavige was roughly around 21 years old at the time, and he really took over Scientology and really ruled with an iron fist.
00:05:33.380I mean he really – anybody that was in any sort of – slightly opposed to him, he threw them to the wayside,
00:05:40.540had them pretty much destroyed, and he really rose to power, and he still is the head of Scientology to this day.
00:05:49.220And where this goes from here was the issue of Scientology's tax-exempt status.
00:05:54.380There's a moment – I'm not exactly – I can't remember exactly what year it was, but essentially because Scientology had their tax-exempt status revote,
00:06:03.820they had a tax bill that was bigger than all of their assets put together.
00:06:09.000So you put two and two together, that's an accounting issue.
00:06:11.280That means that Scientology is not sustainable.
00:06:14.280So Scientology waged a war with the IRS that – and you think about – you get a letter from the IRS and just the initial anxiety.
00:06:23.860You know, we had the story – you think about the story that just broke, what was it, about a year ago, about the IRS, 70,000 new IRS agents.
00:06:30.940And you think about how people are like, oh, my gosh, that's so nervous.
00:06:34.180Well, Scientology, they're like, we're going after the IRS.
00:06:37.660And they – you had roughly about 2,000 lawsuits from individual people all against the IRS, but they didn't stop there.
00:06:45.400They thought, well, no, we're not just going to sue the IRS.
00:06:48.040We are going to find out who the agents are, and we're going to sue them.
00:06:51.740So you had personal suits against people for all sorts of different reasons.
00:06:56.400So you had people who are IRS agents who are just – this is their nine-to-five, right?
00:07:01.020This is how I can provide for my family.
00:07:02.540And all of a sudden, you have people outside of your window who are spying on you, who are going through your garbage, who are finding every little thing about you.
00:07:09.580And now it's hitting you from all of these different angles.
00:07:13.000So in summary, eventually they were told – the head of the IRS, I can't remember his name, but he was basically told that they just renew Scientology's tax-exempt status.
00:07:50.460And everyone does this crazy thunderous applause.
00:07:52.880And so they got their tax-exempt status back.
00:07:56.960And so ever since, their tax bill went away.
00:07:59.700But not only that, every bit of money that they made since then, when it comes to the bridge to total freedom, when it comes to all the different real estate purchases around the world, which is how they moved a lot of their money around, all that is currently tax-free under the guise of a religious institution.
00:08:32.420I don't know if it's Miscavige, Miscavige.
00:08:34.480But – so basically there is not even a conspiracy, but I guess questions about Shelly because this is the wife of David who you said is the head of Scientology, has been for a very long time.
00:08:45.420Basically she disappeared from public life in 2006.
00:09:18.900Yeah, I think she was last seen in public in 2007.
00:09:22.960I think 2013 there was like a welfare check done by the Los Angeles Police Department.
00:09:28.200Honestly, I have no idea where she is in terms of the fair game doctrine given by Scientology that if someone is a threat to Scientology or the Church of Scientology, there's essentially no restrictions, right?
00:09:41.100But intimidate, do what you can in order to keep them quiet.
00:10:37.120And if someone murders a human being, there needs to be justice.
00:10:40.320So even if we don't know, though, in this life what happened to her, I know and I have faith in God that at the consummation of all things,
00:10:46.960that justice will occur for Shelley Miscavige and those who hurt her, they will actually have to stand and hold an account before God.
00:10:56.260And that's a terrifying to behold, but that is something that will happen one day.
00:11:00.360And we actually, as Christians, have faith in that.
00:11:02.820So I pray, though, that justice occurs in this life, but regardless, it will occur one day.
00:11:07.920Tell us a little bit more about some of the tactics by Scientologists to kind of intimidate people, to torment people.
00:11:16.960And to silence, I don't know how much y'all know about this, but I've just heard there's also just with the controlling nature of its own members.
00:11:27.140I think I saw it in that Netflix documentary that you were talking about, basically forcing parents to abandon their children, leave them in the care of strangers that they don't know.
00:11:38.820They're always trying to try to divide these relationships that might end up being a threat, even if it's a parent-child relationship or, excuse me, they will encourage abortion.
00:11:51.680Or I've even heard stories of forced abortion in some cases.
00:11:55.580I'm not sure if that's in the name of some kind of threat to this person's membership or in the name of success or what it is.
00:12:02.580But there's a lot of coercion, and it seems like a lot of criminality and violence that goes on within Scientology.
00:12:17.280I can't remember her name off the top of my head.
00:12:19.260But yes, it's funny because that whole premise, you know, you think about people who protest an abortion law, they always get in The Handmaid's Tale office.
00:12:28.560They're always feeling those evil Christians who want to force women in red cloaks.
00:12:33.340But when you look at reality is that she's an active Scientologist, and there's numerous accounts, publicly independent lines of testimony, witness verified records of women who are in the Sea Org.
00:12:43.960They end up getting pregnant, and the Scientology, like, they get forced to have an abortion.
00:12:49.480So literally, it's one of the ultimate examples, too, of projecting, hey, I want to go ahead and articulate this idea to demonize one group when it's the fact the very religion that I'm doing is forcing women to get abortions.
00:13:01.760And I think, too, a lot of it just comes down to worldview.
00:13:03.900When you look at even a lot of the cases of abuse of people who – of children who grew up in Scientology, again, it's a worldview issue.
00:13:11.500It's how – what are – how does Scientology view children?
00:13:15.920They view them as grown-up adults who are trapped in children's bodies.
00:13:20.920That's how they view their own children.
00:13:23.660And so that would go very part and parcel to how you deal with them, how you punish them, how you train them.
00:13:29.460There's sort of no – you're not really allowed to be a child.
00:13:32.940There's no level of innocence or growing up, and that's really articulated in a lot of the episodes of Scientology, the Aftermath.
00:13:39.460But honestly, you even see this, too, articulated in the relationship that Tom Cruise has had with the media.
00:13:45.480So Tom Cruise initially – everyone knows he was married to Nicole Kidman.
00:13:50.300He met her on the set of Days of Thunder.
00:13:54.700That's when they're – the NASCAR movie, and that's when their relationship really flourished.
00:13:58.540Well, really, Miscavige at the time was really nervous about that relationship because, one, Nicole Kidman was not a Scientologist.
00:14:07.700And what ended up really even derilling that relationship was the fact that I believe Nicole Kidman's father was on the board of some sort of psychiatry institution, which that would have put into the fair game tactic.
00:14:18.600That would call for disconnection because there is even a loose association.
00:14:23.940This is not – Nicole Kidman isn't specific on publicly collaborating with her dad.
00:14:32.040You think all the scenarios that would lead up to that.
00:14:34.200So that would be also in a very public eye how disconnection would happen.
00:14:39.620But even on the most personal level, if anyone has watched Scientology of the Aftermath, you would see just the devastation of just everyday people.
00:14:49.540Like I got – there's multiple times in that show, like I'm – even people who aren't Christian, like you see the hurt and the devastation.
00:14:56.720Like there's times I'm watching that show like just with tears down my eyes.
00:15:00.520I feel like I'm getting emotional just talking about it, but that's when you show like these are people who are made in the image of God.
00:15:06.860And when you see this counterfeit, like as a Christian, like it makes me angry because there's levels where you see like a scripture that says like the gods – those who have gone – the sorrows of those who have gone after another God will multiply.
00:15:20.120And so you see that on like a theological issue, but when you see people actually dealing with it, it's – you can only – your heart can only break for them.
00:15:28.160And in fact, there's a guy, Aaron Smith, he was on the Lex Friedman podcast not too long ago, just sort of talking in Scientology when he gives his own story of how he lost the relationship with his brother.
00:15:40.180Like I've heard that story multiple times, and there's this moment where all of a sudden I'm listening to the podcast, and all of a sudden it goes silent.
00:15:47.720I'm like, what, is there something wrong with my volume?
00:15:49.340I'm like, oh no, he's telling the story like with his brother again about how he lost the relationship with his brother.
00:15:54.720And yeah, I mean it's definitely heartbreaking.
00:15:58.420I think honestly this is where as a ministry, as Christians, where we differ from people like Leah and Mike Rinder and guys like Aaron Smith.
00:16:08.140Like I have so much appreciation for what they do, exposing the abuses of Scientology.
00:16:14.600I think because they aren't beginning with the fundamental presupposition that these people are made in the image of God, they're the Mago Dei, and that ultimately Jesus Christ is the hope of the world and the hope for those who are both in Scientology, for those who have come out of Scientology.
00:16:29.580You can't, like how do you give an ultimate accounting?
00:16:33.540Like where do you, what's your fundamental presupposition or starting point to even point out spiritual abuse to begin with?
00:16:39.920You know, the existence of a counterfeit predicates the authenticity of an original.
00:16:44.500And so what you end up seeing is that what people are longing for and what they end up getting is a result of investing into a counterfeit.
00:16:53.280And that's why it's important, we see it prominent, not to approach the subjects of the cults from a point of neutrality, but from the presupposition that Jesus Christ is King of Kings, Lord of Lords.
00:17:07.640He is the hope for all those who put their faith in him.
00:17:10.500He is the hope for all those who have experienced spiritual trauma and the abuse.
00:17:13.640He is the authentic in the replacement to the counterfeit.
00:17:18.100And so one of the things, Andrew, let's just jump in here a second.
00:17:20.380The reason why I was kind of mentioning the issue of tax-exempt status, I believe this is where Leah, Mike, those who are advocating right now, and Mike talked about this on the podcast, where he, his real mission and motivation right now is to try and get the IRS to revoke Scientology's tax-exempt status again.
00:17:42.540And I think what happens is that a lot of people who are secular, who deal with the issue of the cults, they tend to sort of look to the state as the main arbiter between to kind of arbitrate and deal with these things out.
00:17:56.060What ends up happening is that if the position of morality ends with the state, then you are ultimately leaving up to the state to decide what is loving your neighbor, what is telling the truth, what is bearing false witness.
00:18:09.460And there's been multiple accounts, too, where you've seen the state involved, where they have not handled, they have not spoken in justice, like they haven't really sought out justice for people who are victims of cults.
00:18:22.280There is a HBO documentary, I'm trying to think of the name of the cult, it was Luz del Mundo, I think it was called, and it was this cult that was based out of Mexico that all these women were child brides.
00:18:38.020And they came forward and exposed the abuses of just really the predatory nature of these quote-unquote apostles.
00:18:44.980And they were told during this trial that this person would receive justice, they would not get a plea bargain.
00:18:52.360And at the very end of this case, the state changed their mind, the state of California, and said, nope, we're actually going to give this apostle a plea bargain.
00:19:00.680So you constantly see those who leave the arbitration for dealing with cult abuse in the hands of the state.
00:19:07.580The state has been a terrible and inconsistent, unequal just and weights, really, arbiter when it comes to dealing with the cults.
00:19:17.120I want to just kick it back just a little bit in terms of what Ali was asking with family separation or even forced abortions.
00:19:35.900You mentioned the C-Org, Jerry, and I think that's a distinction that we have to help the listeners understand.
00:19:41.480There's something called the C-Organization, which is a religious order within the Church of Scientology, which is their working arm, essentially.
00:19:47.680Remember we talked about the Bridge of Total Freedom.
00:19:49.320The Bridge of Total Freedom costs so much money.
00:19:52.160So if you can't pay for it, you might as well sign what is called the Billion-Year Contract and devote your life to the Church of Scientology so that you can work the whole time in order to pay for those auditing sessions so you can go up the Bridge of Total Freedom.
00:20:03.700And they pay these people very slim, mainly just living.
00:20:06.900You can go and look at places in Clearwater, Florida.
00:20:09.820There's videos on YouTube where there's apartment buildings where people are just – they're fully bought by the Church of Scientology and they're sitting there living inside these buildings, not in good conditions.
00:20:18.040If you listen to our episode that we did with Mike Rinder, he clearly describes in his book A Billion Years and in the interview what it was like living aboard – I believe it was the Apollo, what he was on, the same boat that L. Ron Hubbard was on, what the living quarters were like for the members of the C-Org.
00:20:32.100But essentially in order for the Church of Scientology to function, it functions off of the people in the C-Org.
00:20:38.180And so when people in the C-Org engage in sexual relation and people get pregnant, the organization doesn't like that because it takes time away from the organization.
00:20:47.440You want total devotion to the organization and those within the C-Org also want to devote themselves.
00:20:52.440I mean these people end up working over 100 hours a week.
00:20:56.980So essentially what happens is families are split.
00:20:59.420There's even children from the C-Org that just go into specific schools for the Church of Scientology and these people never see their parents again and they're raised essentially by a cult.
00:21:08.500Like that's the reality of what's going on and these children are put even to like forced labor, building specific things.
00:21:15.080Like Jerry said, there are these like full-grown reincarnated beings trapped inside a little child's body.
00:21:21.500So that's the reality of what is going on and like Jerry said, we live in a society today where since we've gone so far from the Word of God, we don't actually have a standard in order to actually bring justice to what is happening to these little image bearers.
00:21:37.420We said that they're protected under a form of religious freedom, but according to the Bible, that is something that these children should be free from, from a cult that is destroying their lives.
00:21:47.720And Mike Rinder even said it in a billion years.
00:22:10.740And hopefully they can know him a little bit better.
00:22:12.520So that just gives you an idea, just that right there.
00:22:15.240And Mike Rinder's struggle to get his connection back with his family of what happens within the family unit in the Sea Org and in Church of Scientology.
00:22:49.020DeCrescenzo signed Scientology's billion-year contract when she was just 12 years old, moving out of her parents' home in New Mexico.
00:22:58.100I don't even know how in the world this could happen.
00:23:00.700But an into Scientology's PAC base in Hollywood, DeCrescenzo alleged in her lawsuit that she was falsely imprisoned, isolated from her family at times, subjected to rigid discipline in the Rehabilitation Project force, and forced to have an abortion when she became pregnant as a teenager.
00:23:19.880In court papers, attorneys for Scientology denied each and every allegation.
00:23:24.700She married another member of the Sea Org at 16, became pregnant at 17.
00:23:33.940And these stories really aren't that uncommon.
00:23:37.120She certainly isn't the only one to make these accusations.
00:23:41.020Was there anything in there that you guys feel like you need to break down?
00:23:44.100I know you talked about the Sea Org and the billion-year contract.
00:23:48.460Is there anything else in there that people need to understand?
00:23:57.520I mean, if you are grown up teaching, and if you're parents, and if you have a husband and wife, and you are true believers in Scientology, you really believe that your child is just an adult trapped in this body.
00:24:12.920So if you're 12 years old, you think about what sort of decisions do you have to make independently when you're 12 years old in a perfect world, right?
00:24:20.560I mean, definitely not signing any sort of contract that's worth a billion years.
00:24:37.540How could you let your child sign this contract and all this sort of stuff happen?
00:24:41.140But this is what happens when whether Scientology or any of these groups where you become a true believer and get radicalized, like you don't think about this sort of thing until you get on the outside.
00:24:51.920And then when you actually wake up, there's – imagine like the parents – imagine coming out of Scientology.
00:24:58.060If they're the parents and they come out of Scientology, even if they're not Christian, and say they're in a focus group with Leah and Mike and say they're on Scientology, the aftermath of the reunion episode, that happens.
00:25:08.600Imagine them having to explain, I let all this happen to my child, and I thought this was a good thing.
00:25:16.380Can you imagine the guilt and the imagine the shame?
00:25:18.660That's just one thing you have to do with.
00:25:20.760So definitely just that fundamental worldview issue, that would be the primary thing.
00:25:25.400And it just – again, this is just people are just – they're – it's very cut and dry, black and white.
00:25:33.740It doesn't matter what the relationship, whether it's child to parent, parent to child, parent to grandparent, any sort of relationship, sometimes even with pets, that they enact the fair game and disconnection.
00:25:46.720What are your thoughts real quickly, Andrew?
00:25:48.660Yeah, because we – once we deny biblical principles, our society goes down a slippery slope.
00:25:54.840And what I mean by that is the family government is something instituted by God where your children are yours, essentially, that you are to raise them in the fear and admonition of the Lord.
00:26:04.980So if you think – if you deny biblical principles and if you think Scientology is weird, well, what we have to understand is if our government isn't founded upon biblical principles and your children aren't yours, then they then belong to the state.
00:26:19.660The children aren't necessarily belonging to their parents.
00:26:22.600They're indoctrinated through specific communist schools with communist ideology.
00:26:27.740So that's the reality of the situation is that the reason why we're angry about Scientology and the things that are going on is because we live in a nation that is built upon Christian principles.
00:26:38.360I mean we interviewed Aonmi Park and she gave us very chilling warnings from her book, While Time Remains.
00:26:45.120And she's saying we're headed down a very similar path, right, where you can't say this, you can't say that, you got to believe this, you got to believe that.
00:26:50.720Certain things are being taught through public school systems that influence the way people are relating to one another, creating forms of conflict through intersectionality, taking away rights of individuals, and soon maybe even taking away the rights of the family in order to raise their children in the fear and admonition of the Lord.
00:27:08.600So the reality of the world that we're living in is that our government isn't too far off from Scientology.
00:27:13.940The only thing that's keeping our government at bay, I'd say, is the hand of Christ and the blessings that we have inherited through the principles of a biblical nation from the beginning of our society.
00:27:22.800So if it bothers you, we need to do something about it as Christians.
00:27:27.400We should be vocal, act as the rod to the state, bearing the truth to our local magistrates and telling them we need to repent of the things that we're doing and follow God in A, B, and C in order for our society to flourish.
00:27:41.000Yeah, even though that would be a really good place to end, I still have another question that I've been hanging on to, and probably it will be my last question, but we'll just see.
00:27:51.200What is it, do you think, about Scientology that is so attractive for people who are already rich and powerful?
00:27:57.640I understand the appeal for people who want to be rich and powerful, who maybe are struggling in their acting career.
00:28:03.020But it's a two-part question, kind of, because you see, okay, Tom Cruise and you see John Travolta, Elizabeth Moss.
00:28:13.240Why are they attracted to Scientology and not just self-help or not just some other kind of like, you know, self-promotion, self-improvement program?
00:28:35.280So the reason why is because Scientology, and then Mike Rinder talks about it in his book, he was also telling us in the interview, is Scientology, like, headhunts people.
00:28:43.820They want – they're very pragmatic, like I was saying earlier.
00:28:46.220They want people who are in positions of, quote, unquote, power in order to be spokesperson for Scientology.
00:28:53.000Like John Travolta is a good example that's used in the Billion Years book where this guy was not even really a full believer in Scientology, yet they kept going after him and going after him and trying to headhunt him down.
00:29:04.160Even David Beckham, guys, they tried to get David Beckham to be part of the Church of Scientology at their headquarters.
00:29:09.080They had built a soccer stadium just for him, and he never ended up showing, like not a stadium, like a soccer field or whatever.
00:29:17.540He's like, I don't want to be a part of this.
00:29:20.120So I'd say they headhunt people, but I think what the – why people are appealed to it is something that we talked about earlier is that because we are sinners, there is a veil, right, between man and God.
00:29:32.440Jesus Christ destroyed the veil, but only where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
00:29:37.540What every other cult seeks to do is say, look, there's a problem with humanity, and this is how you can fix it.
00:29:43.980So they're appealing to an innate sense within the person that there is something wrong, and this is how I can fix it, and that's why people are appealed to it.
00:29:52.280There's something that they believe that they can do in order to achieve some form of divinity or godhood.
00:29:58.500I mean Satan said it to Eve in the garden.
00:30:00.760He said, God doesn't want you to take of that fruit because he knows you will be just like him knowing both good and evil.
00:30:06.200It appeals to the very innate sense of our fallen nature to say, no, I don't need God to achieve these things.
00:30:13.340I can actually do it myself through these elementary principles which are described in Colossians 2.
00:30:20.420We're fallen human beings, and that's why they're pulled to it, but Jesus Christ is the only solution.
00:30:25.640Yeah, and I'll just say real quickly as we wrap up here, Allie, is that it's really an issue of looking at the – starting with the authentic, right?
00:30:33.460So it's very easy to become – it feels like there's this pressure that you have to become an expert on every single cult.
00:30:40.520It's good to be – it's better to actually be more familiar with the authentic.
00:30:44.720Like what does the Bible actually say about this?
00:30:46.460Like what's the ultimate foundation of truth?
00:30:48.020So you look at – what does it say in the book of James about favoritism?
00:30:51.440It says that if you end up having someone who's a rich person who has all this decor sitting in the very front of your house, church, or congregation at the time in the first century, but you say to the poor person, the beggar in the back, no, you sit in the back.
00:31:06.000You sit in the back where no one else can really see you.
00:31:12.100But when in Scientology, you have the exact opposite of that.
00:31:16.520So when you look at how celebrities like Mike – that Tom Cruise, John Travolta – in fact, this is articulated too in the documentary Going Clear.
00:31:24.760I think it was Tom Cruise's 42nd birthday where he's on this private yacht.
00:31:29.960He's got servants beckoning to his every call.
00:31:32.760It is one of his mansions or Pinal Suites that the Scientology fully funds.
00:31:37.780That's a very – that treatment of Tom Cruise is polar opposite of somebody like Andrew mentioned who's over in Clearwater, Florida, who's living on whatever the wage is, like 50 bucks a week on minuscule things.
00:31:49.420In fact, one of the most interesting things too is that when I watched the documentary Going Clear, I rewatched it again.
00:31:54.800When you see the interactions that Mike Rinder has with this BBC reporter, you look at his face.
00:32:01.720He looks 20 years older – and this is from 20 years ago.
00:32:06.260Mike looks 20 years older than he did in our interview with him.
00:32:10.220Like that's the amount of sleep deprivation, like abuse that people face.
00:32:15.260So there's – that's one of the distinctions is that there's completely radical unjust weights and measures if you're a rich, powerful person or celebrity versus someone who's just on the outskirts.
00:32:24.780And I guess – I mean this answers my second question is that, okay, I guess I understand, you know, everyone wants to exchange – who is not in Christ, everyone wants to exchange the God of Scripture for the God of self.
00:32:46.480It manifests itself, I guess, in different ways, some people through Scientology.
00:32:50.980And so I understand if you're like going up these rungs, you're getting more and more power, you attribute that to Scientology, you stay in it.
00:32:57.620But someone like – someone who is in Scientology, they're guaranteed all of the success and prominence.
00:34:07.340I guess you're just so far in it that you just are detached from reality.
00:34:11.620Yeah, I mean there's a YouTube channel I'm just going to give a plug for.
00:34:18.000I've never talked to this guy, but it's a YouTube channel called Growing Up in Scientology.
00:34:21.740And the host of that channel, he does daily content.
00:34:24.520He's done a lot of really in-depth analysis of that specific trial.
00:34:29.200To be honest, I've only seen it in passing.
00:34:31.900I've seen occasionally Mike Rinder will tweet or Leo will tweet something about that.
00:34:37.820But I do know a lot of what they are saying is that there are fundamental presuppositions in Scientology, Ron Hubbard's teachings,
00:34:46.300but also just in general like what – how going up the bridge, how it changes you psychologically and even mentally
00:34:53.900where you sort of think that your actions are – don't have consequence.
00:35:01.720And so I believe a lot of what they've articulated is the beliefs of Scientology are very part and parcel to this rape case from what I've seen.
00:36:14.340And again, just like the great distinction between a cult like this and Christianity, that Christianity is so up front that we say, hey, like, you know what?
00:36:53.660We're not promising you anything else.
00:36:55.220And Christianity is so up front about that, that our reward ultimately, fully, is eternal.
00:37:01.620And again, just, I mean, every cult, but every form of worshiping the God of self rather than the God of Scripture flips the gospel on its head and offers you something temporary in exchange for your soul.
00:37:16.720What does it profit a man to gain the entire world, whether it's in the form of Scientology, whether it's in the form of worshiping wealth, whatever it is, but lose his soul?
00:37:27.400This was a really great two-part rundown that we did.
00:37:30.120There's so much more to talk about with Scientology, just like anything else.
00:37:33.860But I do hope people will go and listen to y'all's episodes that you've already dedicated to Scientology, listen to some of the people that have had those firsthand experiences.