Ep 889 ｜ Why 'Ethical Porn' Doesn't Exist ｜ Guest： Benji Nolot (Part Two)
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Summary
Benji Nolat is the founder of Exodus Cry, an international anti-trafficking organization, and the author of Raised on Porn. In this episode, Benji shares his thoughts on pornography and how it affects our children.
Transcript
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Is viewing porn immoral? You might think the answer is obvious, but there are some very
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prominent voices, including conservative voices, that would argue no. Today, my guest, Benji Nolat,
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who is the founder of Exodus Cry, an international anti-trafficking organization, the author of
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Raised on Porn, is going to give his take on that today and also talk about how pornography is
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specifically affecting children, their view of themselves, their view of sex, and the long-term
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consequences of how this is shaping their minds. This episode is part two of a two-part conversation.
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Part one was yesterday, so go check that out. This episode is also brought to you by our friends
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at Good Ranchers. Go to goodranchers.com. Use code Allie at checkout. That's goodranchers.com. Code Allie.
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I just want to read, just because I think it's important to actually go to God's Word
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when we're looking at this, that the Bible makes very clear that it is a mutual submission when it
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comes to sex between man and woman, husband and wife, 1 Corinthians 7, 4 through 5. And this would
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have been radical at the time that this was being written. I mean, in a highly kind of patriarchal
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society in which women were viewed at the time, and especially in secular culture, really, as just
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kind of objects of pleasure, children too. This is what 1 Corinthians 7, 4 through 5 says,
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for the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. That sounds scandalous,
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but it also says, likewise, the husband does not have authority over his own body,
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but the wife does. That's because the two have become one. You have a stake in your spouse's
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body. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote
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yourselves to prayer, but then come together again so that Satan may not tempt you because of
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your lack of self-control. And so it's not a wife's exclusive responsibility to make sure that she is
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always sexually available to her husband. It is a mutual submission that we are called to,
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and we also are called to self-control. And so I think it's important to, despite any false teachings
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that may be out there in or outside of the church about sex, that the Bible is really clear on the
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role of the man and the woman when it comes to sex and sexuality. Okay. So can I just mention
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something about that passage you just read? Sure. Okay. So I love that perspective that you're
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sharing. And here's where I think some of this gets off is when one party of the other applies that in
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such a way to say, you are required to be available to me because of this verse anytime I want. So I think
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it's okay for somebody to read that passage and to posture themselves in a way in their relationship
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to be available to their partner, to their spouse, to say, um, I, you know, I want to, um, I want to
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have a, a connected, loving, um, sexual life with you. Um, but when one party or the other uses it as a way to
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subjugate the other and impose an obligation on them is when it can become dangerous because at a
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very basic level, we just know that there are so many times and examples where that sex would be off
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the table for any number of reasons. Right. I'll just use an obvious one. Let's say somebody just had
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a baby. Right. Right. We know that their, their body is not in a condition to engage in that. So
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if the partner is using a Bible verse to tell that person, you must now do this. And then for the,
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for the woman in that situation to internalize the, this passage as I'm obligated to now be sexually
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available. My body has gone through this traumatic event. I'm emotionally depleted. I haven't slept in
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however many days. And, but now I'm, I'm obligated. I mean, what? So this obligation based mentality
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around sexuality is probably the quickest thing to actually shut down sexual arousal. It doesn't
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create sexual arousal. And then again, now the woman is the sponge. She's the receptacle. So this isn't,
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so when we, so this all comes back to the point of consent, there's something that we should be
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talking about, which is much higher ethical standard to approach sexuality with than consent.
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And that is empathy and mutuality. So the idea that I am trying to understand what is going on
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in my partner's life, mentally, emotionally, physically, psychologically, I'm trying to
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be sensitive towards where they're at. And then the mutuality component is what do you like? What do
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you desire? What kind of things would enhance your experience of this sexual relationship?
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So I do believe that each person's responsible to steward their own needs and boundaries in terms
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of communicating those things. But then obviously empathy and mutuality are part of the communication
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process to get on the same page about what we can enjoy and experience together as a mutually
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enhancing experience. And, um, and so I think that when you look at sexuality through the lens of
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mutuality and empathy, you end up in a place that can truly be life-giving that can truly be bonding,
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um, as opposed to something that is, um, damaging or as opposed to something that is bringing pleasure
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to one person at the other person's expense. Hmm. And pornography certainly ruins that. It doesn't
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even offer that possibility. If you're masturbating to pornography, it can never be about mutuality.
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It can never be about empathy. It can never be about connection. Right. Um, and so go ahead,
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go ahead. You can respond. Well, I mean, just, just real quickly, just to say it's whenever I hear
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somebody describe themselves as pro porn or, you know, promote porn at all, you'd think I'd be
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used to this by now, but I, it always takes me aback a bit. And I'm like, man, what kind of mental
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gymnastics have you been engaging in to get yourself and what kind of lies have you been believing to get
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yourself to the point of actually thinking of pornography as something positive and promoting
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it to others. So there's just so much to unpack and deconstruct there. And again, it's, it's one of
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the main things I've been thinking about for the past 16 years. So obviously I have a lot to say about
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it, but it's a lot to unpack. And it's, it just, on one hand, you know, of course I want to be
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gracious in understanding, uh, where people are meeting where they're at. On another hand, it's
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just like, I just, yeah, it's, I feel a lot of deep frustration, especially with my male brothers.
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Um, when I hear things along these lines and it just, how much work we have left to do as men.
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You know what? Someone with a whole lot of influence that I'm sure you and I both appreciate
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a lot of ways. I really appreciate the work that Dennis Prager has done to help advance ideas that
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I think are good for the country when it comes to economics, even when it comes to social and
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cultural issues. I've worked with Prager many times. And so I really appreciate so much that
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he has brought to the table over the years. Um, but he made a comment that I'm sure you saw
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recently basically saying that porn isn't all that bad. So I'm going to play that clip and then I'm
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going to get your reaction to it. I'm not even giving a religious answer. I'm giving what I think
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is a moral and realistic answer. Men want variety. And, uh, if adultery is a substitute for, if pornography
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is a substitute for one's wife, it's awful. If it's a substitute for adultery, it's not awful.
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Uh, that was actually my first time hearing that. Oh, okay.
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Um, so, uh, yeah, so a couple of things. I mean, one is the idea that porn is going to satiate,
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uh, men's need for variety is, uh, not real. That's not true. Um, porn is not a satiator. It is a
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cultivator. So if it's pouring gasoline on a fire, it is not extinguishing something. So just
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fundamentally that very concept is, is flawed. And then, uh, and then, um, again, this goes back to
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the point that we talked about the idea of self-control. So where does that come in into
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the equation? You know, again, the idea that, well, I may commit adultery, but since I have no
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self-control, I'll go look at pornography instead. And then again, how does that play out? So we're in
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the bedroom together and I tell you, Hey, I have an appetite for variety. You mind leaving the room for
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a few minutes. I mean, and how does, so here, so this gets back to the point of empathy. So then
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how does the, how does the woman, how does the wife experience that? So she's outside the room.
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Now she hears her husband in there. There's another woman moaning on the screen. She hears him doing
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what he's doing. How does she experience that? You know, betrayal trauma is something very real
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and can absolutely be invoked through one partner or the other watching pornography. I mean,
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engaging your sexuality in a voyeuristic way with somebody else in that act, again, a very special,
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powerful, private, mysterious act can have a dramatic effect on the other partner.
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Um, and so, um, so can experience betrayal trauma and fidelity trauma through that. And yes,
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they're not physically with another person, but then you have to get, but, but there it's,
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it's a form of technologized prostitution. You're actually engaging in digital prostitution and then
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you're participating in fueling the coercion and often trafficking that's happening to create that
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porn in the, in the first place. So it just, to me, that comment strikes me as a really thoughtless
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and careless remark about a very significant issue that our world is currently facing. And that,
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you know, I believe that the, the, the, the effort of the conservative Christian movement is to uphold
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an ethical standard for society when it comes to matters of sexuality, fidelity, family, those kinds of
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things. So it seems, it seems like an opportunity for a deeper education on what pornography is and
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the way we interact with it. And I would just say that I'm fundamentally opposed to the comment that
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I just heard. I think that's an awful, um, and careless depiction of, of how to interact with
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pornography. Yeah. Pornography, because it's not just about, it doesn't happen in a vacuum. It's not
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even just about what that one person is experiencing in front of the computer screen. And as you just
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described, that in of itself still has consequences and is still unethical and wrong, but it's part of
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a whole system and part of that system, which I'm sure. And I think Dennis Prager has said this, that
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yes, child sex abuse, the quote unquote child pornography that we see, that's awful. That's
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terrible. Kids can't can say all, all that kind of stuff. I think he agrees with that, but I don't
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think that you can disconnect as you guys have talked about so much. You can't disconnect child sex
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trafficking from pornography, regular pornography, whatever you want to call it, adult pornography,
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because it's all connected. The demand demands all of it. The demand buoys Pornhub. It buoys all of
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these pornography sites that we know platform child sex trafficking, the rape of children. You can't
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disconnect your consumption of pornography to adults from the demand for child pornography.
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because they are connected. Very often it's the same people producing both kinds of videos,
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right? Absolutely spot on. And the five areas that we saw that pornography was connected to and
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overlapping with trafficking were first, when we were going into red light districts, we noticed that
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they were handing out pornography to advertise the women who were being used in prostitution and the
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trafficking victims. And so it was the marketing of trafficking and prostitution. And then the women
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who were in the trafficked and prostitution positions were also being required to make pornography. So they
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were in the videos. The third thing that we saw is that this was being used, pornography was being used to
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groom child victims of sex trafficking. So they were shown pornography to, uh, to groom them, to condition
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them, to show them what would be expected of them as they were required to, uh, engage in paid rape
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from clients. And, um, and then, uh, and then we saw that it was fueling the appetite for illicit sex. So,
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so the, we interviewed, uh, we, I'm touring a film right now called buying her. It's the first
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documentary about male sex buyers. The one thing, these men come from all walks of life and background.
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The one thing that, that is consistent among all of them is that they had a prior history of porn
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consumption from childhood. And so porn was fueling the appetite for the demand side of human trafficking.
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And then we investigated. The fifth thing is we investigated the mainstream porn industry and saw
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the way in which coercion was used as the backdrop for the creation of the vast majority of, uh,
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mainstream pornography that is online today. Um, so those were kind of the initial five overlapping
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intersecting ways that we saw pornography connected to the larger sex industry and to sex trafficking.
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Then when we went into the porn industry, um, and began to hear some of the stories of the individuals
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who were being propped up as porn stars, that was a whole other level of heartbreak.
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And so I, as a potential, let's say potential porn consumer, just as a, you know, as any person could
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be in this world, um, would have to bypass my own knowledge that many of these people did not want to be
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there experienced it as violating or coerced to get on set. I'd have to go through all these,
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is it, is that really worth it? I mean, like, it's just, it's just recklessly irresponsible at
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this point. Let me just make one last point. I'm going to turn it back to you. Just one last quick
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point, because this is something that I've been thinking about recently is I've been hearing a lot
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of arguments of people who would describe themselves as pro porn and all of this. Um,
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there are no protections that exist online in any kind of effective way to prevent children from
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having exposure to pornography currently. So the internet is a city without walls and, um,
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virtually all children, uh, will be exposed to pornography, um, at some point in their life
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growing up. Um, I mean, the numbers are so staggeringly high. Um, and most children will
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experience as an inadvertent exposure to pornography that, that because of neural coupling and all of
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these things, the way our brain works can experience that as a form of sexual abuse, prematurely
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awakening their sexuality. It really, they don't have the cognitive, uh, biopsychosocial,
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emotional capabilities to handle this potent toxic graphic, um, depiction of sexuality. And so it has
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a devastating impact on them. So, so just think about this. Children are most vulnerable demographic
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of people in this world that we should all be able to agree deserve to be protected, have their
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innocence protected. There is, there are no effective measures currently on the internet to protect
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children from having exposure to pornography. So even if you believe in theoretically the value of
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pornography, um, in the like whatever best case scenario version of that, that a person can imagine,
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well, now you put that out there in an environment in which there's no protection for children,
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you're at the very least having to sign off with, I'm okay with children being exposed to this,
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even though we know it has a dramatically devastating impact on hijacking and colonizing
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their sexuality. Yeah. So that alone is enough for me. But then when you go down that thread of
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looking at what, what people refer to as ethical porn, I mean, that, that's, that's just a whole other
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thing. Like they, if you want, I can go down that path. I'm going to stop here because I'm going on and
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on, but that, that piece really matters to me. And I know it matters to you about the protection of
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I want to talk explicitly about this documentary and this book that's recently come out raised on
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porn. And so you are free to continue to go down that path and just talk about the ways pornography
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has kind of become the new sex ed for kids. And I know we've seen these trends on Tik TOK where
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girls, I mean, we're talking like 13, 14 year old girls talking about wanting to be choked,
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wanting violence in the bedroom, because that's what they've been exposed to. That's what they
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think sexuality is. That's really what they think their first sexual encounter should be.
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That it's not something about commitment. It's not something within the bounds of marriage,
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certainly, but it's something again, just for male pleasure, even if that includes violence
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and objectification. So tell us a little bit more about what you wrote about, what you found when
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you were researching for this documentary and book. Okay, for sure. No, thank you for the opportunity
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to, to share on that. Um, so I just want to just real briefly hit the ethical porn piece because this
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is the other direction that a lot of people go to. They say, well, I'll just watch the ethical
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porn. And, um, you know, I don't know why it is that people are so obsessed with pornography that
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they need to find some kind of justification for it. I mean, what does that say about us that we need
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to, that we need to access our sexuality through a screen? So I think there's a deeper issue going on
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there, um, of mental health and, uh, the, the kind of like addicted self-medicating consumers culture
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that we live in and a lack of healthy outlets that people have in their lives to be so obsessed with
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finding the version that will work so they can still have their pornography. But there, there was
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a great example of ethical porn given through a documentary on Netflix called hot girls wanted.
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And it was the second installment called turned on. And they did a whole episode on ethical porn and
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starts off with this lady named Erica lost saying, I'm not giving a Ted talk saying, I'm not here to
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get, uh, girls off of porn. I'm here to get girls into porn, something along those lines. So her,
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she's her mission statement is to get people to participate in pornography. And then the idea is
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she's going to do it in this really ethical manner. Well, by the end of the episode, we see that
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they're on the set of the quote unquote ethical porn set. And there's a woman at the piano and it's
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supposed to be this very romantic setting in which she begins to make love to the male counterpart in
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the scene. And he approaches her from behind and as she's playing the piano, they stand up. And then
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he begins to attempt to have sex with her. Well, she's experiencing as really painful. So she attempts
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to stop the scene at which time the quote unquote ethical porn director tells her just fake it,
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just fake it. So the whole episode is about how this is about women's pleasure and they're going
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to do it in this ethical way. And it's all going to be romantic and consensual. And, you know,
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surely if you throw a piano in there, it'll make everything better. But then when the woman is not
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enjoying it, she's actually in pain, uh, doesn't want to continue is being cajoled and manipulated
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and coerced and bribed into just keep going and fake it. So I think for those people who would build
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their notion of acceptable pornography on the idea of ethical porn really have to go back and reconsider,
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uh, their own cognitive dissonance about this and their own critical thinking about what,
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what they actually believe they're participating in. So I just wanted to make that point to kind
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of wrap up that thought on ethical porn, but I can jump into just a few thoughts on the book if that's
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okay. Go for it. Okay. So during this eight, eight year plus investigation, um, I was approaching this
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from a public health and human rights standpoint. So public health being porn's impact on consumers
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really wanted to understand what is porn's impact on consumers and, um, relationships on children,
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on adults, on men, on women. So we explored that part of it. And then the other part of it was
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the human rights part. How is this being created? What is the impact on the performers that are being
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used in the pornography? And so, um, so I spent the better part of eight plus years, uh, investigating
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both of those things and then released a documentary last year, um, called raised on porn. And now just
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released this book, which is a much more robust and in-depth resource on the subject. So there's a
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question of, you know, how is porn impacting us? We, you know, we now know that this, that pornography
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is, um, ubiquitous throughout our world, that most children are being exposed to it by the age of 11
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or 12 years old. Um, so what impact is that having on us? And one of the examples that you brought up,
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I thought was really interesting, the idea that a young woman who has virtually no sexual experience
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desiring to be choked in one of, you know, maybe her first or early sexual activity. And where does
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that come from? And so, um, so I do think that we really have to consider the social, the impact on
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the socialization of children when it comes to porn. Here's the thing is that we don't do a great job
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about discussing issues of gender identity and sexuality in the world. And in the absence of that
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pornography becomes the way in which many, and I would say most people are getting their sexual
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education and unintentionally oftentimes getting an education about what it means to be a
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man or a woman. Now, pornography used to be thought of as just a male issue, but, uh, I'm actually,
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um, in pre-production right now on a new documentary about porn's impact on females because about a third
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of the people that visit porn sites now are women and so females. And so there is a much greater level
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of exposure to females with pornography today. And what I see happening seems to be a fundamental
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altering of female sexual DNA from the standpoint of maybe going with an initial curiosity about what
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are, what are the males they're interested in looking at? What are the, why are they so into this?
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But then through having that exposure, our sexuality is so fragile. It is so sensitive
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and can begin to have their own sexual appetites affected by what it is that they're seeing. And so
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that's why I say altering their natural sexual DNA. So maybe prior to any kind of porn exposure,
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they would imagine some type of romantic scenario of lovemaking with the person that they're interested
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in or in love with, uh, and in a relationship with, and, but after pornography, maybe they want to
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be choked, um, maybe have sex with multiple men at once. And then, you know, I'm, I'm trying to be
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conscious of not getting too graphic here, but, um, I'll, I'll just, I'll just leave it at that. So,
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so yeah. So, you know, a girl's first sexual experience being choked out or having sex with multiple
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men is very common today. And that is a direct result of widespread female exposure to pornography.
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And to me, I mean, I just, I think that's, that's tragic again, just going back to the point that I
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think sex has a purpose. I think it can be such a beautiful thing, but the way that it's glorified
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and deified in our culture is that in a way it's almost like all sex is good sex. And no, we know
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that anything that is really good and powerful and awesome can also be corrupted. It can also be
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twisted. It can also be perverted. And to me, that is the very essence of evil is to take something
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that's beautiful and pure and powerful and good, and to twist it into something else. And so I think
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that is what we see happening with regards to how porn is affecting our sexuality and ultimately then
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There's so many different parts of pornography and the consequences of it that people just don't realize
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are so incredibly far-reaching. I mean, I'm very thankful. I'm thankful for the work that y'all do
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and especially, and also the work of people that expose specifically Pornhub and just what an awful,
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smutty industry and business this all is totally based on people's pain and exploitation and trauma,
00:28:16.960
and they just don't care. And it really does stun me people who claim to have, you know, even some of
00:28:23.840
the same values maybe that you and I do try to justify it without thinking at all. Like you've
00:28:30.220
mentioned a lot in this episode, just think about it. Just like put a little bit of thought and a
00:28:35.040
little bit of consideration into what kind of thing you're fueling, what you're a part of just for that
00:28:40.200
fleeting momentary pleasure that's going to end up destroying your life and your relationship and
00:28:44.360
your sexuality anyway. There's just nothing, nothing redeeming about pornography. And I am so concerned
00:28:52.420
about the children who are exposed to this at even younger ages. It's so ubiquitous. They're seeing it on
00:28:57.680
TikTok, whether they're searching for it or not. They're seeing it on Instagram. They're comparing
00:29:01.980
their own bodies, their own sexuality to these fake depictions that they're seeing on social media.
00:29:07.500
I mean, I don't even think we fully know the long-term repercussions on a societal level
00:29:14.000
of kids being exposed and addicted to that kind of stuff early on. I mean, it's scary.
00:29:21.140
Yeah. We, we have to, I mean, it's, if we care about the protection of children, if we care about
00:29:28.900
the dignity of women, if we care about authentic, healthy masculinity, we have to begin to look at
1.00
00:29:34.840
the issue of pornography and how it's affecting us. And I don't mean to come across as, you know,
00:29:40.000
cynical or disillusioned when I talk about how this has affected, you know, the church and
00:29:45.900
secular world and, um, conservatives and liberals. I, it's just that I'm in this really unique space
00:29:53.520
where we get all the stories. So all the stories come to us of people who have been manipulated,
00:30:01.260
defrauded, sexually abused, um, trafficked in all these different contexts and by all these
00:30:09.160
different people. And so I think there's just this unique autonomy and objectivity that we feel
00:30:14.880
at Exodus cry as it pertains to this issue. And so, yeah, we want to, we want to just herald a
00:30:23.380
message that it is, um, it is an hour of crisis. It is an hour in which we really have to think about
00:30:30.340
what we are going to do as a society to protect future generations of children, to protect the
00:30:35.400
dignity of women, to, um, to produce healthy men and ultimately facilitate the ability for us to have
0.99
00:30:44.120
healthy relationships, to grow healthy families and a healthy society. And right now that is all in
00:30:49.340
the balances. It's all in the balances by virtue of the tsunami of pornography, graphic, often violent,
00:30:58.340
potent visual media that hasn't been invoked on us over these last few decades. Yes. Wow. Where can
00:31:05.740
people watch this documentary raised on porn? Um, we have it, um, it's just up on our magic lantern
00:31:12.680
pictures, YouTube channel. So, uh, they can go there, they can go to magic lantern pictures.com to
00:31:20.760
see all of our films. Um, and it's a 37 minute long, um, film has nearly 4 million views online. It's a very
00:31:30.840
consumable length. It's a palatable film. I think for my part, I think appropriate for teenagers and,
00:31:37.500
uh, but really tries to quantify porn's impact on the consumer. And we try to do all of our
00:31:42.300
productions with a really high standard for production quality. So I definitely encourage
00:31:46.360
people to give that a look. And then the book again is a much more robust and in-depth resource
00:31:51.840
and they can get that where anywhere books are sold. It's, uh, you know, Amazon or whatever.
00:31:56.780
It's just, the book is called raised on porn by myself, Benjamin Nolo. Thank you so much. I really,
00:32:02.740
I really appreciate you taking the time to come on. Um, there are just a lot of stunning statistics
00:32:07.100
to studies that are included in this book. And so if you want to be equipped, not just for yourself,
00:32:12.160
but conversations. And I also like, I encourage people take this book, take this documentary to
00:32:17.520
your pastor, to the ministers in your church, to make sure that they understand what's going on.
00:32:22.520
I do think that this is something that's not talked about quite enough. Maybe we talk about
00:32:27.200
like lust in general, but specifically the danger that pornography poses. We just need to be, I think,
00:32:33.720
I mean, as Christians, we need to be leaders in that world of heralding the, one of the parts of
00:32:40.500
the good news, which is that we are made in the image of God. We're made for something so much more
00:32:44.660
and so much better than pornography. Um, thank you so much, Benji. I really appreciate you taking the
00:32:50.040
time to come on. Absolutely. Thank you. It's always an honor and I just appreciate you so much. So
00:33:09.540
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00:33:15.420
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00:33:20.880
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