Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 896 ｜ From 'Trans Man' to Transformed by Christ ｜ Guest： Laura Perry Smalts (Part One)

00:00:00.000 Laura Perry lived as Jake for nine years, presenting herself as a man, undergoing cross-sex 0.88

00:00:08.260 hormone therapy, undergoing a double mastectomy, different procedures to make her feel and

00:00:15.360 look truly male.

00:00:17.640 But then God's love, the gospel changed her.

00:00:21.400 She realized that the way that she was going would never lead to the satisfaction and the

00:00:26.660 healing that she was trying and failing to find in this change of identity.

00:00:31.840 And her story is absolutely incredible.

00:00:34.960 She will walk us through the timeline of how and why she went through this process, attempting

00:00:42.060 to go through this transition.

00:00:43.920 There are so many spiritual and practical lessons to be learned in this.

00:00:48.620 This is going to be a two-part conversation.

00:00:51.220 You won't want to miss either part.

00:00:53.620 So today is part one of my conversation with Laura Perry.

00:00:57.640 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:01:00.680 Go to GoodRanchers.com.

00:01:02.260 Use code Allie at checkout. 1.00

00:01:03.540 That's GoodRanchers.com.

00:01:04.660 Code Allie. 1.00

00:01:14.540 Laura, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

00:01:17.840 Set us up a little bit.

00:01:19.080 Tell us just briefly about who you are.

00:01:21.500 Well, now I'm a women's minister with First Stone Ministries, but which that's kind of

00:01:27.980 funny because I lived as transgender for almost nine years, had no plan to ever be in women's

00:01:34.380 ministry or, you know, I had so much anger and bitterness towards women. 1.00

00:01:37.960 And so to tell a little bit of my journey, when I was one of those kids that grew up in

00:01:42.640 the church, we were at church every time the door was open, kind of the all-American family.

00:01:46.640 In fact, people have since told us that they thought our family didn't have any problems.

00:01:51.100 You know, we had the sort of perfect image.

00:01:54.180 But, you know, and I sometimes I'll tell a little bit of my mom's story just to tell my

00:01:58.580 story because God kind of wove our stories together.

00:02:01.120 She had so much of her own brokenness that I didn't understand at the time, but she grew

00:02:05.480 up in a very legalistic church.

00:02:07.480 And as a result, she really didn't understand the peace and the grace of the Holy Spirit

00:02:12.760 and how to live in his presence, how to let the Lord work in her.

00:02:17.160 And so she had a lot of religion, but really didn't understand a relationship with Christ.

00:02:22.020 And as a result, she was always stressed out and burned out, just always wanted me to go

00:02:26.420 away.

00:02:27.280 Just leave me alone.

00:02:28.060 Just get off me. 1.00

00:02:28.780 Leave me alone for five minutes.

00:02:30.300 You know, when you were little.

00:02:31.940 Yeah.

00:02:32.120 When I was really, really little.

00:02:33.700 Yeah.

00:02:34.060 And and I was very hyperactive.

00:02:35.940 I had she said I would have been diagnosed ADHD, but she didn't want me on the Ritalin.

00:02:41.260 But, you know, as a result, I just began to interpret that as mom didn't love me.

00:02:45.140 I didn't understand how stressed she was, how much she was trying to hold together all

00:02:49.440 the responsibilities of being an adult.

00:02:51.120 I didn't understand that as a kid.

00:02:52.760 I was also born a little later in life.

00:02:54.500 She had a lot of health problems.

00:02:56.440 It was getting siblings.

00:02:58.040 Yes.

00:02:58.300 I had two older siblings, but they were quite a bit older.

00:03:00.460 So I was born much later in life.

00:03:02.100 And, you know, some of the health problems, like she had fibromyalgia so bad that she couldn't

00:03:08.920 stand for the sheets to touch her at night.

00:03:10.720 So she didn't want to be touched at all.

00:03:12.360 And my love language was physical touch.

00:03:14.920 And my dad was very affectionate with me, but my mom really was just not able.

00:03:21.040 And but I began to look at the relationship she had with my brother and she treated him

00:03:27.060 very differently.

00:03:27.840 Well, he was very quiet and very obedient.

00:03:29.980 Was it in your middle?

00:03:31.360 Yeah.

00:03:31.920 Yeah.

00:03:32.280 So I had an older sister and then my brother and then I was born about six years later

00:03:36.000 and she'd miscarried two boys between my brother and I.

00:03:39.400 So there was a lot of pain there and a lot of her longing for those boys.

00:03:43.320 But I didn't know how to talk to her.

00:03:45.020 I didn't know how to tell her what I was experiencing.

00:03:48.400 I just began to interpret what was going on.

00:03:51.920 And in fact, I've still struggled even in my adult life to ask proper questions.

00:03:55.800 And sometimes I jumped to conclusions because that's what I learned as a child.

00:03:59.260 Don't bother mom.

00:04:00.720 You know, mom's too busy. 1.00

00:04:01.720 So just like I would evaluate the situation.

00:04:04.160 So I got very jealous of my brother.

00:04:06.260 And I began to think in my own mind.

00:04:08.400 My mom would have never said this, but I began to think in my own mind that mom loved him

00:04:13.200 more.

00:04:13.460 That mom wished I had been one of the boys.

00:04:17.000 And so from a very young age, I began to be very jealous of my brother.

00:04:23.260 And one of the reasons I mentioned that is because I've heard so many stories of kids

00:04:27.840 that misperceive family dynamics.

00:04:30.940 A lot of different situations, but sometimes they think something is true about their parents

00:04:35.060 that isn't.

00:04:36.360 But, you know, none of us could ever be the perfect parent.

00:04:39.060 We're all sinners raising other sinners.

00:04:40.840 And the reality is that sometimes kids misunderstand things or they feel like they're not loved

00:04:46.940 when they actually are.

00:04:47.880 Maybe the parent's not capable of loving them the way they need, but none of us are fully

00:04:52.660 capable of giving a child everything they need.

00:04:55.300 Ultimately, we've got to point them to God and how the Lord is able to be that sufficiency

00:04:59.900 for them.

00:05:01.080 But it's kind of a two-sided coin of we've been greatly sinned against, and yet we've responded

00:05:06.560 in sin.

00:05:07.540 And so I began to be very bitter.

00:05:09.200 I began to be very angry with her.

00:05:12.060 I began to put-

00:05:13.900 When was that?

00:05:14.720 Like five to eight years old at a very young age.

00:05:18.680 So you kind of quickly started to turn from desperation for your mom's attention to bitterness

00:05:25.020 that you weren't getting the attention that you felt that you needed.

00:05:28.100 And it developed over the years.

00:05:29.580 But I think part of it was in my mind, I thought if mom notices how hurt I am, then she'll pay

00:05:40.140 more attention.

00:05:40.920 And then I'll get her attention.

00:05:41.900 So that's how I was trying to get her attention.

00:05:43.560 But as a result, I would sort of drum up everything I could think of and sort of I could feel myself

00:05:48.620 building this anger towards her in an attempt to get her attention.

00:05:52.260 And when that didn't work, I would just- I built these walls in my heart and pushed her

00:05:58.140 away.

00:05:58.640 And she didn't deserve any of this.

00:05:59.760 I didn't realize how much stress she was under.

00:06:02.080 She was trying so hard to do everything, everything she should be doing.

00:06:06.760 She used to tell me she felt like she was on a performance treadmill for God.

00:06:11.960 Never good enough.

00:06:12.980 Never measuring up.

00:06:14.060 And honestly, I hear that from so many Christian women out there that are struggling and struggling

00:06:18.240 and struggling.

00:06:19.300 And so I don't want anyone to hear, you know, I've completely failed my child.

00:06:23.220 The reality is, like I said, we're all sinners.

00:06:25.780 We're all desperately in need of the Lord.

00:06:27.700 And that's why it's so important to understand that relationship with God, to understand that

00:06:32.900 He gives us the strength.

00:06:33.980 He's not expecting us to go out and perform for Him perfectly.

00:06:37.620 He wants us to be completely dependent on Him.

00:06:40.960 But as a result of me building this wall and kind of shutting her out, I began to be very

00:06:46.320 angry with her.

00:06:47.040 I began to really cling to my dad.

00:06:49.360 And in fact, I was told, you know, you're just like your dad.

00:06:52.440 You act just like your dad.

00:06:53.760 You know, you have the same personality.

00:06:55.240 And was really, really began to identify with him.

00:06:58.400 And we see this so much in people that identify as transgender, so much of cutting off their 1.00

00:07:03.700 same sex or cutting off that association with their same sex for whatever reason.

00:07:08.760 But it was complicated when I was eight years old and I was molested by another boy.

00:07:13.060 And in a sense, I didn't actually even realize until recently how much I had cut off that

00:07:19.760 part of me.

00:07:20.960 I really, in an attempt to protect that little girl, I think, sort of dissociated myself.

00:07:27.080 I began to tell myself stories about me being a boy.

00:07:30.840 I felt like boys had the power.

00:07:32.620 Like I was helpless.

00:07:33.460 At about eight years old.

00:07:35.040 Yeah.

00:07:35.680 And can you tell us a little bit more about that experience?

00:07:39.420 Was this a boy that was your age?

00:07:41.260 Was it your brother's friend?

00:07:42.920 Or how did that happen?

00:07:43.900 Yeah, it was my friend's brother.

00:07:45.280 I was eight years old and he was only a year older than me.

00:07:49.460 And the hard thing was, it took me many years to even talk about this.

00:07:53.620 I actually didn't even tell my parents until I was 33.

00:07:57.160 Wow.

00:07:57.760 And in fact, the first time I told my mom, she didn't even know what I was saying, I think,

00:08:01.700 because it was so painful.

00:08:03.620 It's like she didn't even comprehend.

00:08:05.700 So she thought I hadn't told her for another several years.

00:08:08.980 But, you know, he was only a year older than me.

00:08:12.900 And because it was sort of this sexual play, it awakened that desire.

00:08:18.320 And even at eight years old, it was fun.

00:08:21.340 It felt good.

00:08:22.640 And at the same time, it feels very violating and it feels very wrong.

00:08:26.560 I was so ashamed.

00:08:27.600 I knew this was not good.

00:08:29.680 But at the same time, your body responds to it and it feels good.

00:08:33.060 And so I came back to him later and I said, hey, that was a lot of fun.

00:08:38.040 Do you want to do that again?

00:08:39.180 Something like that.

00:08:40.060 And you didn't really know what you were doing.

00:08:44.840 Right.

00:08:44.980 You kind of and I don't know, like what his role or what he was saying or trying to convince

00:08:49.800 you that it was OK, but you just knew, oh, that kind of felt good.

00:08:53.720 I'm just going to do it again.

00:08:54.960 You really didn't know the depth of, you know, sex or sexual interactions or things like

00:09:00.000 that.

00:09:00.460 But part of you did know that there was something wrong with it because you felt shame and you

00:09:03.540 didn't tell your parents.

00:09:04.420 Right.

00:09:04.900 Right.

00:09:05.560 Yeah.

00:09:05.720 And just that, you know, the Bible says that God has written his law in our hearts.

00:09:09.300 And I think even in that, I didn't know why that was wrong.

00:09:13.540 I just knew that it was.

00:09:15.360 And but I didn't know anything about sex.

00:09:18.880 I was very sheltered, very protected until that day.

00:09:22.080 And it robbed me of my innocence.

00:09:23.660 But also when I went back to him, he flipped out and he said, we cannot ever do that again

00:09:29.400 and totally rejected me and wanted nothing to do with me.

00:09:32.200 And he said, besides, that's how girls get pregnant. 1.00

00:09:35.000 And, you know, it was like nine years old saying that.

00:09:38.040 Yeah.

00:09:38.520 So clearly somebody had, I think at least, I mean, I haven't talked to him since, but

00:09:43.760 I think that somebody had to have molested him or given him graphic information of some kind.

00:09:49.660 And so, but I remember even at eight years old, I remember thinking, boys have all the power.

00:09:57.360 I'm just good to be used to be.

00:09:59.540 I felt so thrown away and discarded.

00:10:02.260 You know, I remember feeling dirty.

00:10:04.960 And how does an eight year old even process all of that?

00:10:08.300 Yeah.

00:10:08.940 And you didn't feel like you could go to your mom.

00:10:11.060 Right.

00:10:11.780 Yeah.

00:10:12.120 And so I just began to hide and had all these secret desires.

00:10:18.620 And over the years, I began to engage in sexual play with other kids and just began to live

00:10:23.880 this double life and getting angrier with mom, getting angrier at God because of, you know,

00:10:31.520 I didn't like being a girl.

00:10:33.320 I was jealous of my brother.

00:10:34.640 And now I'm even more jealous of boys because I feel like they have all the power.

00:10:37.980 I felt like I had no value as a girl.

00:10:39.600 And because I spent all my time with my dad and my brother, I didn't fit in well with

00:10:44.480 the girls at school.

00:10:45.880 So it's like, how do you, you know, when I would go to school and these girls would make 0.98

00:10:51.680 fun of me or make me feel like I didn't belong, I was called tomboy a lot, which some girls 0.99

00:10:56.420 don't mind that label.

00:10:57.260 But to me, even though I wanted to be a boy, I knew that I wasn't.

00:11:02.300 And so there was a part of me that desperately wanted to fit in.

00:11:05.060 I knew I was supposed to be like the girls, but I didn't know how.

00:11:08.400 And, you know, I tried to fake it at times, but I'm like, this is just not me.

00:11:12.200 This is not who I am.

00:11:13.240 Did you have the same interest that your dad and your brother did?

00:11:28.520 Like, were you into sports, like in what you wore and things like that?

00:11:32.840 Like, did you look like a typical, quote unquote, tomboy?

00:11:36.100 And then you tried to look more feminine or act more feminine when you were around girls?

00:11:40.260 Yeah, some of both.

00:11:41.400 I mean, it really would cycle as I would try really hard to look like a girl.

00:11:45.080 And then I would go through these very tomboy stages.

00:11:47.680 And I was always, you know, kind of going back and forth, trying so hard to fit in because

00:11:51.980 I didn't, I'd never even heard the word transgender back then.

00:11:54.820 That was not even a thing in culture.

00:11:57.640 And so I, I had never really even had that concept.

00:12:01.440 I just knew that I wished I'd been a boy and I felt like a boy, but I didn't have the language

00:12:06.020 for that.

00:12:06.820 So I played with my brother's toys.

00:12:08.520 I wore his clothes.

00:12:10.400 But I really, and my dad and I were very, very into racing.

00:12:14.160 We, my dad used to take me to lots of race cars, races, and we would play lots of sports.

00:12:20.620 And my brother and I both played soccer.

00:12:22.400 And, but over the years, as I, you know, I would write stories about myself as a boy.

00:12:29.420 I invented this boy character.

00:12:31.040 And every night to go to sleep, I would rehearse these stories in my head.

00:12:34.480 And it became sort of an alter ego.

00:12:36.840 And I played lots and lots of video games as a male character.

00:12:40.540 That's how I spent a lot of my free time.

00:12:43.160 If I wasn't playing sports.

00:12:43.940 Was this in the, the 90s?

00:12:46.100 Or?

00:12:46.360 Probably it would have been, I was born in 82.

00:12:48.480 So yeah, in the 90s.

00:12:49.620 Okay.

00:12:49.840 So between like eight and 14.

00:12:51.780 Yeah.

00:12:52.560 And then when I was 14, I was diagnosed with polycystic ovarian syndrome.

00:12:57.460 I had cysts all over my ovaries and they were, I was in constant excruciating pain.

00:13:04.040 And I, there were times I remember like falling out of the chair and just writhing on the floor.

00:13:08.120 I was in so much pain.

00:13:09.160 Yeah.

00:13:09.720 And I, I remember going to the doctor and they diagnosed me with this condition and he wanted

00:13:14.680 to put me on this medication that was, had all kinds of horrible side effects would

00:13:19.000 make me get a lot of weight.

00:13:20.100 I was already really struggling with my weight and had since puberty.

00:13:23.820 And so, and he told me, um, he said, well, somebody's going to have a hard time getting

00:13:27.980 pregnant.

00:13:28.960 And he says this to a 14 year old girl.

00:13:31.740 And even though I was really jealous of boys, there was a part of me that wanted to

00:13:36.980 have children one day, you know, even though I didn't at that moment, obviously, but still

00:13:41.180 it was like, I remember how soul crushing that was.

00:13:43.680 And I was so angry with God.

00:13:45.660 And I thought there, people are telling me that God made me this way on purpose, that

00:13:49.480 he doesn't make mistakes.

00:13:50.960 But if God created me a girl and he gave me to a mother that doesn't want a girl in my 1.00

00:13:54.940 mind, mom wished I'd been a boy.

00:13:57.060 You know, I didn't understand the pain of miscarriage and all those other things were

00:14:00.260 just the personality difference.

00:14:01.780 And, um, but I thought if God did this on purpose and God doesn't make mistakes, but then

00:14:06.420 he's given me a body.

00:14:07.360 I don't want a body that causes me nothing but pain.

00:14:10.340 And now it's not even working properly and I won't be able to have children. 1.00

00:14:13.520 Then God is just a jerk. 0.99

00:14:15.420 And I decided that God couldn't be trusted. 0.99

00:14:18.420 And it's interesting because, um, a couple of things that the Lord has really shown me

00:14:22.920 in scripture.

00:14:23.440 One in Hebrews 12, it says that bitterness leads to defilement and ultimately to sexual

00:14:29.280 sin.

00:14:30.180 And it says it defiles many.

00:14:31.780 So when we're bitter, you know, we've all heard the term hurt people, hurt people.

00:14:35.540 And so I began acting out a lot more sexually, but also, um, one of the things the Lord has

00:14:42.340 really taught me is that in, in Romans, it says that it's the goodness of God that leads

00:14:47.140 to repentance.

00:14:48.240 But interestingly, the opposite is true.

00:14:51.540 A couple of years ago, I, um, I was sick one weekend and I watched hundreds and hundreds

00:14:55.640 of testimonies.

00:14:56.500 I'd committed to the Lord for that weekend.

00:14:58.200 I was not going to watch any TV.

00:14:59.860 And so here I was, and then I got the flu, you know, so I just watched hundreds of testimonies

00:15:04.200 one after the other.

00:15:05.540 And the Lord taught me a lot about how he works.

00:15:07.600 And one of the things that was interesting in almost every case, not, not the exact words,

00:15:12.980 but there was some form of this question that turned their heart away from the Lord.

00:15:16.860 If God is good, why did he allow this in my life?

00:15:20.480 And so I really, um, I can identify with that, but I've seen that in so many stories.

00:15:27.000 And again, in Romans, it says that, um, they, they knew that God was true, paraphrasing a

00:15:32.420 little bit, but it says that God's revealed himself to every man, but they glorified him

00:15:36.280 not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imagination. 0.55

00:15:40.140 And their foolish heart was dark and professing themselves to be wise. 1.00

00:15:42.800 They became fools and exchanged the truth of God for a lie. 1.00

00:15:45.940 And so I see this progression so often we can blame it on lots of other circumstances. 0.99

00:15:51.320 I can see how lies began to come into my heart.

00:15:54.900 But as a result, I responded in sin.

00:15:57.300 I was angry at God.

00:15:58.460 I was angry at my mom.

00:15:59.820 I built walls.

00:16:00.920 I began to cut off my feminine identity and I decided that I knew better. 1.00

00:16:06.520 And as a result, I responded in a whole lot of sexual sin, um, began to just throw myself

00:16:11.800 at men desperate for the love and affection of men.

00:16:15.040 Cause growing up, it was only, you know, I felt like my dad had loved me so much, never,

00:16:19.800 never inappropriately.

00:16:20.880 But I mean, just, I was longing for the love of a man.

00:16:24.080 And so I thought, this is the way I need to get it from other men to give them whatever 0.74

00:16:27.700 they want, they want, you know?

00:16:29.940 And so I did whatever they wanted sexually, but the more that I did, the more I was broken

00:16:34.840 and hurt and dumped and used and rejected over and over and over and over again.

00:16:39.420 Did your parents know?

00:16:40.680 So you're a teenager at this time.

00:16:42.540 Did your parents know that this was the kind of life you were leading?

00:16:45.640 Eventually they did learn over time.

00:16:47.460 They could see this progression of rebellion.

00:16:49.700 There were some things I hid.

00:16:50.780 They probably, I found out later, I think they knew a lot more than I, I said that I

00:16:54.800 knew they did, you know?

00:16:56.100 And I think that's typical with parents.

00:16:57.420 You just don't know what to say sometimes.

00:16:58.800 And they tried to help, but I was so rebellious.

00:17:01.940 They were, um, there was not a lot they could do.

00:17:04.640 I was just completely out of control.

00:17:07.060 And, um, but I, I was beginning to be very fractured in my soul and I felt I was always

00:17:13.000 leaving, um, these relationships feeling so broken.

00:17:17.960 And then I'd be on to the next guy, hoping desperately that he'd want me.

00:17:22.360 Um, and eventually they, they sent me to a group home.

00:17:25.280 They were trying so hard to help me.

00:17:27.040 And for a while at the group home, because I told the Lord I would never serve him again,

00:17:32.340 really was running away.

00:17:34.360 Mostly it was that, that turning point really after the PCOS diagnosis or was it?

00:17:40.400 Okay.

00:17:40.860 Yeah.

00:17:40.980 This was at about 16.

00:17:42.540 Okay.

00:17:42.820 I was angry and I'd been really hurt.

00:17:45.200 And so my solution was God is not good.

00:17:47.380 I didn't see how my own sin and the sin of others had, had formed this, you know, God,

00:17:54.200 it's not God that wasn't good, but I didn't understand that yet.

00:17:57.640 And so as I began to really turn away from God, really began to embrace this lifestyle

00:18:02.900 of sin.

00:18:03.540 But I was at this group home and, um, they really put a lot of pressure on me to be a

00:18:08.340 Christian.

00:18:08.660 And it was like, I really began at one point to say, okay, I'm tired of living this rebellious

00:18:15.720 lifestyle and all the partying and all that went along with it, but I really didn't know

00:18:20.200 the Lord.

00:18:20.940 And I was trying just like my mom, I was trying so hard in my own strength and my own flesh

00:18:24.940 to be a Christian for a couple of years, but it didn't last long.

00:18:28.500 And I, I, and it's like, I went back into such a horrific lifestyle and went deep into

00:18:35.100 a pornography addiction.

00:18:36.660 And eventually it was so bad that I started meeting men for one night stands all over

00:18:41.280 the state, trying so hard, even for a moment to feel fulfilled.

00:18:45.840 Still a teenager?

00:18:46.720 No, at this point I was in college.

00:18:48.140 Okay.

00:18:48.440 You were in college.

00:18:49.220 So the group home was when you were a teenager?

00:18:51.140 Yeah.

00:18:51.400 I was about 17.

00:18:52.600 Okay.

00:18:53.300 And so then in college, the pornography addiction came and the one night stands.

00:18:57.800 Yeah.

00:18:58.500 And were you still totally presenting feminine at this point?

00:19:01.700 I was at this point.

00:19:02.720 I still had never heard the word transgender.

00:19:05.240 Yeah.

00:19:05.540 And so I really was.

00:19:06.760 Because this is 90s, early 2000s when you were going to college.

00:19:10.840 Yeah.

00:19:11.860 Yeah.

00:19:12.060 It was about 2003 when I went to college.

00:19:14.140 Okay.

00:19:14.540 And so I was, I was trying so hard to fix this broken identity and I was always hoping

00:19:21.040 that a man would want me, that a man would love me.

00:19:23.380 But when, when that, and there were times that I pursued girls, I really didn't, I wasn't

00:19:30.440 physically attracted to girls, but I wanted a girlfriend because I wanted to solidify my 0.78

00:19:35.820 identity as a man, but it didn't seem possible.

00:19:38.640 I never had that concept that I could quote transition.

00:19:42.500 Yeah.

00:19:42.600 So it was just a secret world that I had inside.

00:19:46.560 But then I would, you know, as I was pursuing these relationships with these men, I finally

00:19:53.220 at one point, I ended up in a long-term relationship, which I was always hoping for.

00:19:57.680 One man would finally want me.

00:19:59.120 And it was a horrible relationship.

00:20:01.240 He was a severe alcoholic.

00:20:04.260 And so I thought, you know, the reason this never works out, the reason I'm never happy

00:20:07.660 is because I was supposed to be the man.

00:20:09.460 If I was the man, I know how to treat a woman. 1.00

00:20:12.760 And so I began to pursue that lifestyle.

00:20:16.160 And I really didn't, I'd never heard the word, but I looked it up on Google girl, becoming

00:20:20.420 a boy, just to like, see if anybody out there, um, had ever heard this.

00:20:24.760 And I was shocked when thousands of results came up and that's when I went to a support

00:20:28.820 group and I began to, um, I began to really pursue that.

00:20:39.460 Where did you go to college?

00:20:47.300 I went to college in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

00:20:49.520 Okay.

00:20:49.860 Just to a community college there.

00:20:51.800 Yeah.

00:20:52.040 You were in college and it was around what year did you start really trying to like pursue,

00:20:58.600 pursue this?

00:20:59.240 And you joined the support group.

00:21:00.560 This was in 2007.

00:21:02.140 Okay.

00:21:02.500 So 2007 in Oklahoma still looking for, I, then was it called transgender or was it called

00:21:10.700 transsexual or like, what did you find?

00:21:13.060 Both terms were kind of being used.

00:21:14.760 Um, transsexual had been used for many years.

00:21:17.320 The language was just beginning to change.

00:21:19.380 I was kind of at the, the tail end of what was, um, called gender identity disorder at

00:21:24.680 the time it was a diagnosable mental disorder.

00:21:27.860 Um, now of course they've changed it to gender dysphoria, which, you know, is this term that,

00:21:33.540 that it's like people are just unhappy with their body.

00:21:36.740 Well, who's not unhappy with their body most of their life.

00:21:39.420 And especially at puberty, we have so many kids that are saying they're uncomfortable with

00:21:43.800 their body and they're being told they're trans, you know?

00:21:46.880 And so anyway, as I began to, to pursue that lifestyle and it seems so real at first, you

00:21:55.040 know, and I was like, this is everything I've ever wanted.

00:21:57.400 And as people begin to affirm me as a man, it, it eased that pain for a while.

00:22:02.160 I didn't have all that pain of being a woman.

00:22:03.880 And I thought this feels so much better.

00:22:06.060 This is who I really am.

00:22:07.640 And, you know, all the, all the changes seem to be real at first.

00:22:11.300 And you begin to get this masculine appearance.

00:22:13.720 I begin to, um, be called Jake was the name that I went by.

00:22:18.560 And was that just random?

00:22:19.720 Just, you just decided to go by that?

00:22:21.720 It was one of the, um, one of the characters that I'd created for myself as a young child.

00:22:26.980 Um, and so that was a name I had called myself some for many years, kind of secretly.

00:22:33.020 But, um, I also, one of the reasons I wanted a name that could not ever be mistaken as a

00:22:37.920 girl's name.

00:22:38.460 You know, so I was trying to come up with a name that everybody would know this is not

00:22:42.300 a girl.

00:22:43.480 And, um, but as I, you know, I began to grow facial hair, my voice began to get lower and

00:22:48.960 all these changes at first seem to really make, seem to be real, seem to be solving the problem.

00:22:56.200 But I was always aware that it was still fake, but it was like, well, it's going to be real

00:22:59.720 one day because I can see these changes one day.

00:23:02.400 This is all going to be real.

00:23:03.500 Yeah.

00:23:04.240 But then over time I kept thinking, when does this become real?

00:23:07.640 When does the dysphoria go away? 1.00

00:23:10.200 Yeah.

00:23:10.720 And after my chest surgery, um, I had a double mastectomy in 2009 and that was kind of the

00:23:16.420 turning point because it was like, you know, this still didn't make me a man.

00:23:22.940 And that was devastating for me.

00:23:25.060 Yeah.

00:23:25.460 What point does this become real?

00:23:26.920 And so I really began to, um, sort of go deeper into that and everything I had to,

00:23:33.840 every little affirmation, anything I could find to affirm that identity, whether it was

00:23:38.640 something people said, the way I dressed, the way I walked, the way I talked, everything

00:23:42.060 had to be male to sort of affirm that identity.

00:23:45.140 But I was constantly aware that this wasn't real.

00:23:48.840 And I thought, you know, it's because I still have all these female hormones. 0.99

00:23:51.680 Once I get rid of all the female hormones, then it will be real. 1.00

00:23:53.660 So, and so then I, um, had a hysterectomy, I had the ovaries removed and it still wasn't

00:23:58.320 real.

00:23:58.960 Yeah.

00:23:59.360 And then I was shocked when I began to look at the genital reassignment surgeries and I

00:24:03.180 realized how fake all this was.

00:24:06.220 I realized that it wasn't real, that this was never going to solve the problem.

00:24:09.800 Yeah.

00:24:10.160 And I realized that it was completely artificial.

00:24:12.360 And on top of that, there were lots of potential complications.

00:24:15.440 In fact, now, um, in recent years, I've heard of one girl that has had over 30 corrective

00:24:20.780 surgeries.

00:24:21.480 Yeah.

00:24:21.680 I know of another girl that's in a wheelchair permanently.

00:24:24.180 I know of girls that have had major urinary problems. 1.00

00:24:27.500 Some have had tissue necrosis where it actually, the tissue dies, all kinds of other complications.

00:24:33.180 Yeah.

00:24:33.580 And on top of that, many lose sexual feeling permanently.

00:24:37.240 And sorry, I want to back up a little bit.

00:24:40.400 I want to back up to, um, about 2007 because you said that you joined this community group

00:24:47.640 and you started getting affirmation and you started going by the new name.

00:24:51.940 And I'm guessing that is what started before you actually took steps to start taking testosterone

00:24:57.140 and things like that.

00:24:57.780 So tell us a little bit about though, that, um, community of affirmation.

00:25:02.360 Like, how did that start?

00:25:04.020 You met with these people, you became friends with them, and then they started socially affirming

00:25:08.560 you.

00:25:08.980 And that's kind of first what gave you that euphoria.

00:25:12.120 Well, even before that, when I showed up to the sport group meeting, they were, um, they

00:25:16.680 were all transgender there.

00:25:18.700 And so within five minutes, they're like, oh, you are definitely transgender. 0.78

00:25:21.880 And immediately started calling me Jake and immediately affirming me.

00:25:25.420 Wow.

00:25:25.620 You know, they, they didn't even know me, but then.

00:25:28.020 Were you dressed?

00:25:28.960 Yes.

00:25:29.160 As a man?

00:25:29.680 And had, at that point, kind of, were you regularly dressing out in public as a man?

00:25:33.540 That was my first time ever.

00:25:35.200 Oh, okay.

00:25:36.080 Yeah.

00:25:36.340 And I, no one knew I was going, I didn't tell a single friend.

00:25:39.420 I, I, I'd cut my hair real short.

00:25:41.540 I showed up to this meeting dressed as, as much as I could.

00:25:44.800 I didn't have any chest binders yet, but I wore real tight.

00:25:47.300 Um, hoodie kind of, and trying to look like a man.

00:25:51.100 But, um, yeah, within a very short time of, they asked me to tell me about myself and

00:25:56.040 they said, oh, you are definitely trans, you know?

00:25:58.860 And I, I said, um, I was worried that I would never look like a man because I still looked

00:26:03.800 very feminine.

00:26:04.720 And they said, oh, don't worry about it.

00:26:06.320 After a year or so of taking hormones, no one will ever know you were a girl.

00:26:09.980 And that's what I'd wanted to hear all my life.

00:26:12.760 But this is the answer.

00:26:13.720 This is everything I've been looking for.

00:26:15.780 You know, this makes so much sense.

00:26:17.120 I've felt this way my whole life.

00:26:18.520 And now here's this group telling me everything I want to hear.

00:26:21.460 But it was interesting.

00:26:22.440 I went to one of the requirements at the time I had to go to a therapist and I, I didn't

00:26:29.360 have any interesting counseling at all, but this is one of the, the requirements per the

00:26:33.220 W path standards, which is sort of the, the standards of care given to, um, to help trans

00:26:39.000 people transition.

00:26:39.780 And so after the third session, she would give me this diagnosis and give me this letter

00:26:44.840 stating that I was diagnosed with gender identity disorder.

00:26:47.580 But in the third session, she put down her notebook and her pen.

00:26:51.240 She like kind of pulled down her glasses.

00:26:53.460 She looked right in my eyes and she said, wow, you really have issues with your mom. 0.72

00:26:59.040 And I was stunned.

00:27:00.160 It was like, whoa, wait a minute.

00:27:01.360 How did we get from me talking about being a man to talking about my mother?

00:27:05.740 Cause I had not, um, been really paying attention to where the conversation was going.

00:27:10.100 I was just trying to fulfill this requirement, just mindlessly answering her questions.

00:27:14.020 So you could then go on hormones.

00:27:15.780 Right.

00:27:15.980 That's all I was looking for.

00:27:17.180 And all of a sudden she realizes I have all this anger toward my mom, which again, my mom

00:27:22.060 didn't deserve.

00:27:23.100 Now I have so much grace for my mom.

00:27:25.220 I understand all the pain she was going through, everything she was trying to do, but at the

00:27:29.340 time I didn't.

00:27:30.180 And I had all this anger toward her.

00:27:32.540 And so I blew up at this therapist.

00:27:34.320 I said, I'm not here to talk about my mom.

00:27:36.480 And she said, so you're just here for this diagnosis.

00:27:38.880 And I said, yes, that's all I'm here for.

00:27:41.740 And she said, okay.

00:27:43.120 And she just gave me what I wanted, you know, and in what, what other medical diagnosis is

00:27:48.780 there that people can go in and say, this is true of me.

00:27:51.840 Even if the doctor says, no, this is not true.

00:27:55.220 Yeah.

00:27:55.580 And the patient gets to determine what's best for their treatment.

00:27:58.740 Yeah.

00:27:59.060 We don't do this in any other case.

00:28:01.240 You can't say, well, I want chemotherapy.

00:28:03.220 And if the oncologist says, well, you don't have cancer, you don't just, you don't just

00:28:07.200 get to have that treatment because you want it.

00:28:09.460 But with this, I guess the patient just gets to self-diagnose.

00:28:13.760 Right.

00:28:14.540 Yeah.

00:28:14.760 And we're actually, there are people now, I don't know how common this is becoming or whether

00:28:19.260 this is actually happening, but we know that there are people now identifying as transabled

00:28:24.780 and I, I don't know, have you heard our doctors actually performing these surgeries or I know

00:28:30.000 that there's been a lot of talk about it, but I'm not sure if they're actually performing

00:28:33.780 the surgeries.

00:28:34.600 There certainly are.

00:28:35.680 I've talked to psychologists on this show of even, you know, outside of the whole trans

00:28:41.380 thing that there are girls, especially who, um, see some kind of tick on Tik TOK and then 1.00

00:28:48.080 they pick it up themselves.

00:28:49.340 And so they almost mimic the symptoms of Tourette's and they're convinced they have Tourette's or

00:28:54.720 their bipolar or multiple personality syndrome when they really don't, they've just observed

00:29:00.140 it so much and they have internalized it and they have started kind of repeating what

00:29:04.340 they're seeing on Tik TOK.

00:29:05.640 But I have seen that.

00:29:07.300 I have definitely seen that of, um, of men.

00:29:10.860 It seems like particularly pretending like they can't walk or something and then having

00:29:15.740 a wheelchair, being blind.

00:29:18.460 It's very, very strange.

00:29:20.320 Yeah.

00:29:21.100 Yeah.

00:29:21.400 And that that's, you know, where's this going to end?

00:29:24.020 Are we going to allow people to identify however they want?

00:29:27.740 Or there there's kids that are identifying as cats.

00:29:30.620 And I, I thought these stories were bogus about schools, um, putting litter boxes in

00:29:36.080 the, um, in the schools.

00:29:37.720 But, you know, again, I don't know what's actually, I was told by a parent that was actually

00:29:42.040 happening in a school.

00:29:43.060 Now, whether that's just the kids demanding that, I don't know, but there are, there's,

00:29:47.480 I've heard many stories of kids identifying as cats, kids meowing in class to answer in

00:29:52.860 the, the teachers in some cases, I'm sure not in every case, but in some cases are actually

00:29:56.680 indulging these kids as if they're, as if they're cats.

00:29:59.700 Yeah.

00:30:00.800 Yeah.

00:30:01.520 It definitely goes back to a matter of identity and confusion and not believing there's a God

00:30:06.600 who actually created us and gave us a purpose and meaning.

00:30:22.500 So you started taking, so you got from the psychologist or the, uh, psychologist she gave

00:30:29.440 you, she said, okay, fine.

00:30:31.440 You know, you have gender identity disorder. 0.93

00:30:33.600 You can go on testosterone.

00:30:35.100 You started going on testosterone.

00:30:36.880 How did that feel physically and mentally?

00:30:39.220 Well, at first it was, I was on cloud nine.

00:30:41.300 I mean, this was everything I'd ever wanted.

00:30:43.180 And it gave me this rush.

00:30:44.860 And really testosterone, especially for a female who doesn't naturally have a lot of testosterone, 1.00

00:30:49.960 we have some, um, but we don't have near the levels that men do.

00:30:53.080 And it, it gives you this incredible burst of energy.

00:30:56.660 Now I'd had health problems my whole life.

00:30:58.940 I had, I'd already been diagnosed with Hashimoto's, which is an autoimmune thyroid condition.

00:31:03.520 So I had struggled with chronic fatigue for years.

00:31:06.540 So when I went on testosterone, this made me feel amazing and it gave me, I didn't really realize that it was just giving me physical energy.

00:31:14.400 I, I thought it's because this is the answer to all my problems and I'm embracing who I really am.

00:31:19.460 Actually, it was helping me tremendously physically, even though I didn't realize how many consequences there was going to be,

00:31:25.220 because we're not intended to have that level of testosterone.

00:31:28.500 And, um, so at first it felt really great.

00:31:31.620 And then as people begin to affirm me, as I began to dress that way, every little affirmation reinforced that idea.

00:31:38.120 In fact, they did studies back in the eighties.

00:31:40.580 They did studies that said, um, if, if children, um, came out and said that they were transgender,

00:31:47.260 if they were not socially affirmed, if they were not, you know, they didn't even really have puberty blockers back then.

00:31:52.160 But if they were not socially affirmed, if they were encouraged in the, in the way that they were naturally born

00:31:57.760 and they were given therapy, 82 to 86%, I believe it was, desisted or said they were no longer trans after puberty.

00:32:05.560 But now when kids are socially affirmed, they, um, it's like every little step leads them further down that path.

00:32:12.460 Now, the ones that have been put on puberty blockers, 90 to 100% in some studies have wanted to go on to medical transition.

00:32:20.220 So it, it's not a pause button as they're claiming it's, it's like a fast track toward medical transition.

00:32:27.400 So all these little affirmations just reinforce this idea.

00:32:31.380 And because it's helping you escape the pain, I mean, it's, it's, it's a lot like painkillers.

00:32:36.500 You know, if you have this horrible wound in your body, that's gang, you know, has gangrene and all this, it's destroying your body.

00:32:42.640 But if you take painkillers, you're going to feel a lot better.

00:32:44.860 And that's what some of these kids tell me, you know, but I feel so much better.

00:32:49.400 You know, um, I've even had therapists that say, yes, I, I helped this kid transition.

00:32:53.320 Now they, they feel so much better and all their problems have gone away, but they're really just ignoring the problem.

00:32:58.160 They're, they're burying the problem.

00:33:00.300 And so, but as you realize it's like, everything keeps coming back to the surface.

00:33:05.360 So as, um, the fun sort of wears off for each little step and it becomes normal.

00:33:10.340 And then you need another step to affirm that.

00:33:13.140 So then I had my name legally changed and like looking forward to the name, I couldn't wait for my name to be legally changed.

00:33:19.380 Like on your license and everything.

00:33:21.540 Yeah.

00:33:21.820 And your parents, did they know this was going on?

00:33:23.540 Yeah.

00:33:24.000 They did.

00:33:24.540 But they didn't have it in control.

00:33:25.700 It was 25 by then.

00:33:26.800 Right, right.

00:33:27.400 And, um, about 26 or seven by the time I got my, my name legally changed.

00:33:31.380 And so they really felt so helpless.

00:33:34.260 But, um, you know, I couldn't wait for that day.

00:33:37.140 And then when that happened, that, that you sort of ride that euphoria for a little while.

00:33:41.060 And then it's like, okay, what next?

00:33:42.860 And you're always looking forward to that next step.

00:33:44.740 That is sort of like the next drug high.

00:33:46.540 Yeah.

00:33:46.940 You know, it's never enough.

00:33:47.800 And in fact, I've never done, um, a lot of like hardcore drugs, but I've been told that the high is never same, the same as the original.

00:33:56.000 Um, that first high is always what feels best.

00:33:57.960 And you're sort of always chasing that.

00:33:59.740 And it's sort of the same thing with transition.

00:34:01.880 It's like every step you're looking forward and you're looking forward to it and you can't wait.

00:34:05.760 And, and, and for a moment it feels amazing.

00:34:09.200 And then you're like, oh, that didn't satisfy.

00:34:12.340 And you still are so aware of the dysphoria.

00:34:15.020 And the more I transitioned, I thought it would lead to further freedom, but actually it became my prison cell because I began to, um, the more I transitioned, the less I told people I was trans.

00:34:26.260 And I just wanted to be a man and erase the existence of Laura is so many people.

00:34:30.600 They just want to move on with their life.

00:34:32.060 They just want to be this other person, but you can't escape the past.

00:34:35.920 I was haunted by my past.

00:34:37.680 And I remember trying to, having to reinvent my life all the time, having to lie to people all the time and having to recreate things.

00:34:46.300 You know, I couldn't have been in Girl Scouts.

00:34:47.560 It had to have been Boy Scouts.

00:34:48.780 I couldn't have played softball.

00:34:49.960 It had to have been baseball.

00:34:51.040 Like all these, all these things that I had to reinvent about my life.

00:34:54.440 And I realized I was lying to people that I really cared about, my friends, my bosses, my coworkers, things like that.

00:35:01.080 And so it really began to torment me inside and things like going to the gym with, um, I had a prosthetic genitalia that I was using.

00:35:08.720 And so like trying to change in the men's locker room without being seen and, or, you know, there was just all kinds of problems that people don't think about.

00:35:18.220 Or, um, what it was like, you know, um, because you've been called ma'am and, and I was called Laura for, you know, almost 30 years.

00:35:28.020 Um, sometimes people, if you even heard that name, you know, turn around, things like that, that you can't escape.

00:35:34.480 Or when I was with my family and there, I had some family members that affirmed me as Jake and some that didn't, um, my parents never did.

00:35:42.200 But, um, you know, even if they did, it didn't matter because I could not escape the fact that I was their sister or their aunt or whatever.

00:35:50.140 You know, I knew the truth inside.

00:35:53.340 And so I hated being around my family.

00:35:55.800 So I really began to distance myself from my family a lot and began really, um, I wanted nothing to do with God.

00:36:02.720 I was really trying to fix my own brokenness.

00:36:05.700 I thought I knew better, but over the years, it just satisfied less and less.

00:36:10.260 And I remember one day really realizing that this was never going to be real.

00:36:14.420 No matter what I did, this was not real.

00:36:17.380 And it hadn't solved the problem.

00:36:18.440 It hadn't, the dysphoria had never gone away. 0.94

00:36:21.540 So now I was just left with this really broken identity.

00:36:28.620 All right.

00:36:29.280 So that was part one of our two-part conversation.

00:36:31.840 Tomorrow she will be back and she will talk more specifically about the timeline of the double mastectomy

00:36:38.120 and the hormones and what her body went through there, but also she is going to take us on her 1.00

00:36:44.760 path of redemption and healing, uh, that God providentially and very graciously placed her

00:36:51.120 on.

00:36:51.580 There was just so much hope and so much beauty in her story.

00:36:54.080 And you are going to finish this two-part series, just feeling so grateful to the Lord

00:36:58.700 for his salvation and for his work.

00:37:00.580 And also encouraged to love others by speaking the truth relentlessly.

00:37:07.160 Uh, thanks for listening to this episode of Relatable.

00:37:09.740 We will be back here tomorrow.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - October 25, 2023

Ep 896 ｜ From 'Trans Man' to Transformed by Christ ｜ Guest： Laura Perry Smalts (Part One)

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