Ep 896 ｜ From 'Trans Man' to Transformed by Christ ｜ Guest： Laura Perry Smalts (Part One)
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198.61938
Summary
Laura Perry lived as Jake for nine years, presenting herself as a man, undergoing crosssex hormone therapy, undergoing a double mastectomy, and other procedures to make her feel and look truly male. But then God's love changed her. She realized that the way she was going would never lead to the satisfaction and healing she was trying and failing to find in this change of identity. And her story is absolutely incredible. She will walk us through the timeline of how and why she went through this process, attempting to go through this transition. There are so many spiritual and practical lessons to be learned in this conversation. You won t want to miss either part.
Transcript
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Laura Perry lived as Jake for nine years, presenting herself as a man, undergoing cross-sex
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hormone therapy, undergoing a double mastectomy, different procedures to make her feel and
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She realized that the way that she was going would never lead to the satisfaction and the
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healing that she was trying and failing to find in this change of identity.
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She will walk us through the timeline of how and why she went through this process, attempting
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There are so many spiritual and practical lessons to be learned in this.
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So today is part one of my conversation with Laura Perry.
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This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
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Laura, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.
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Well, now I'm a women's minister with First Stone Ministries, but which that's kind of
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funny because I lived as transgender for almost nine years, had no plan to ever be in women's
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ministry or, you know, I had so much anger and bitterness towards women.
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And so to tell a little bit of my journey, when I was one of those kids that grew up in
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the church, we were at church every time the door was open, kind of the all-American family.
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In fact, people have since told us that they thought our family didn't have any problems.
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But, you know, and I sometimes I'll tell a little bit of my mom's story just to tell my
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story because God kind of wove our stories together.
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She had so much of her own brokenness that I didn't understand at the time, but she grew
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And as a result, she really didn't understand the peace and the grace of the Holy Spirit
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and how to live in his presence, how to let the Lord work in her.
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And so she had a lot of religion, but really didn't understand a relationship with Christ.
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And as a result, she was always stressed out and burned out, just always wanted me to go
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I had she said I would have been diagnosed ADHD, but she didn't want me on the Ritalin.
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But, you know, as a result, I just began to interpret that as mom didn't love me.
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I didn't understand how stressed she was, how much she was trying to hold together all
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I had two older siblings, but they were quite a bit older.
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And, you know, some of the health problems, like she had fibromyalgia so bad that she couldn't
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And my dad was very affectionate with me, but my mom really was just not able.
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And but I began to look at the relationship she had with my brother and she treated him
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So I had an older sister and then my brother and then I was born about six years later
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and she'd miscarried two boys between my brother and I.
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So there was a lot of pain there and a lot of her longing for those boys.
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I didn't know how to tell her what I was experiencing.
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And in fact, I've still struggled even in my adult life to ask proper questions.
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And sometimes I jumped to conclusions because that's what I learned as a child.
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My mom would have never said this, but I began to think in my own mind that mom loved him
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And so from a very young age, I began to be very jealous of my brother.
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And one of the reasons I mentioned that is because I've heard so many stories of kids
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A lot of different situations, but sometimes they think something is true about their parents
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But, you know, none of us could ever be the perfect parent.
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And the reality is that sometimes kids misunderstand things or they feel like they're not loved
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Maybe the parent's not capable of loving them the way they need, but none of us are fully
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capable of giving a child everything they need.
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Ultimately, we've got to point them to God and how the Lord is able to be that sufficiency
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But it's kind of a two-sided coin of we've been greatly sinned against, and yet we've responded
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Like five to eight years old at a very young age.
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So you kind of quickly started to turn from desperation for your mom's attention to bitterness
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that you weren't getting the attention that you felt that you needed.
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But I think part of it was in my mind, I thought if mom notices how hurt I am, then she'll pay
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So that's how I was trying to get her attention.
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But as a result, I would sort of drum up everything I could think of and sort of I could feel myself
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building this anger towards her in an attempt to get her attention.
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And when that didn't work, I would just- I built these walls in my heart and pushed her
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I didn't realize how much stress she was under.
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She was trying so hard to do everything, everything she should be doing.
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She used to tell me she felt like she was on a performance treadmill for God.
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And honestly, I hear that from so many Christian women out there that are struggling and struggling
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And so I don't want anyone to hear, you know, I've completely failed my child.
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The reality is, like I said, we're all sinners.
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And that's why it's so important to understand that relationship with God, to understand that
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He's not expecting us to go out and perform for Him perfectly.
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But as a result of me building this wall and kind of shutting her out, I began to be very
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And in fact, I was told, you know, you're just like your dad.
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And was really, really began to identify with him.
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And we see this so much in people that identify as transgender, so much of cutting off their
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same sex or cutting off that association with their same sex for whatever reason.
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But it was complicated when I was eight years old and I was molested by another boy.
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And in a sense, I didn't actually even realize until recently how much I had cut off that
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I really, in an attempt to protect that little girl, I think, sort of dissociated myself.
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I began to tell myself stories about me being a boy.
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And can you tell us a little bit more about that experience?
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I was eight years old and he was only a year older than me.
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And the hard thing was, it took me many years to even talk about this.
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I actually didn't even tell my parents until I was 33.
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And in fact, the first time I told my mom, she didn't even know what I was saying, I think,
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So she thought I hadn't told her for another several years.
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But, you know, he was only a year older than me.
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And because it was sort of this sexual play, it awakened that desire.
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And at the same time, it feels very violating and it feels very wrong.
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But at the same time, your body responds to it and it feels good.
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And so I came back to him later and I said, hey, that was a lot of fun.
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And you didn't really know what you were doing.
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You kind of and I don't know, like what his role or what he was saying or trying to convince
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you that it was OK, but you just knew, oh, that kind of felt good.
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You really didn't know the depth of, you know, sex or sexual interactions or things like
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But part of you did know that there was something wrong with it because you felt shame and you
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And just that, you know, the Bible says that God has written his law in our hearts.
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And I think even in that, I didn't know why that was wrong.
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I was very sheltered, very protected until that day.
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But also when I went back to him, he flipped out and he said, we cannot ever do that again
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and totally rejected me and wanted nothing to do with me.
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And he said, besides, that's how girls get pregnant.
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And, you know, it was like nine years old saying that.
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So clearly somebody had, I think at least, I mean, I haven't talked to him since, but
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I think that somebody had to have molested him or given him graphic information of some kind.
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And so, but I remember even at eight years old, I remember thinking, boys have all the power.
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And how does an eight year old even process all of that?
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And you didn't feel like you could go to your mom.
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And so I just began to hide and had all these secret desires.
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And over the years, I began to engage in sexual play with other kids and just began to live
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this double life and getting angrier with mom, getting angrier at God because of, you know,
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And now I'm even more jealous of boys because I feel like they have all the power.
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And because I spent all my time with my dad and my brother, I didn't fit in well with
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So it's like, how do you, you know, when I would go to school and these girls would make
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fun of me or make me feel like I didn't belong, I was called tomboy a lot, which some girls
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But to me, even though I wanted to be a boy, I knew that I wasn't.
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And so there was a part of me that desperately wanted to fit in.
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I knew I was supposed to be like the girls, but I didn't know how.
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And, you know, I tried to fake it at times, but I'm like, this is just not me.
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Did you have the same interest that your dad and your brother did?
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Like, were you into sports, like in what you wore and things like that?
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Like, did you look like a typical, quote unquote, tomboy?
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And then you tried to look more feminine or act more feminine when you were around girls?
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I mean, it really would cycle as I would try really hard to look like a girl.
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And then I would go through these very tomboy stages.
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And I was always, you know, kind of going back and forth, trying so hard to fit in because
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I didn't, I'd never even heard the word transgender back then.
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And so I, I had never really even had that concept.
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I just knew that I wished I'd been a boy and I felt like a boy, but I didn't have the language
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But I really, and my dad and I were very, very into racing.
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We, my dad used to take me to lots of race cars, races, and we would play lots of sports.
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And, but over the years, as I, you know, I would write stories about myself as a boy.
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And every night to go to sleep, I would rehearse these stories in my head.
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And I played lots and lots of video games as a male character.
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And then when I was 14, I was diagnosed with polycystic ovarian syndrome.
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I had cysts all over my ovaries and they were, I was in constant excruciating pain.
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And I, there were times I remember like falling out of the chair and just writhing on the floor.
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And I, I remember going to the doctor and they diagnosed me with this condition and he wanted
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to put me on this medication that was, had all kinds of horrible side effects would
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I was already really struggling with my weight and had since puberty.
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And so, and he told me, um, he said, well, somebody's going to have a hard time getting
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And even though I was really jealous of boys, there was a part of me that wanted to
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have children one day, you know, even though I didn't at that moment, obviously, but still
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it was like, I remember how soul crushing that was.
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And I thought there, people are telling me that God made me this way on purpose, that
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But if God created me a girl and he gave me to a mother that doesn't want a girl in my
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You know, I didn't understand the pain of miscarriage and all those other things were
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And, um, but I thought if God did this on purpose and God doesn't make mistakes, but then
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I don't want a body that causes me nothing but pain.
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And now it's not even working properly and I won't be able to have children.
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And it's interesting because, um, a couple of things that the Lord has really shown me
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One in Hebrews 12, it says that bitterness leads to defilement and ultimately to sexual
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So when we're bitter, you know, we've all heard the term hurt people, hurt people.
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And so I began acting out a lot more sexually, but also, um, one of the things the Lord has
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really taught me is that in, in Romans, it says that it's the goodness of God that leads
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A couple of years ago, I, um, I was sick one weekend and I watched hundreds and hundreds
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And so here I was, and then I got the flu, you know, so I just watched hundreds of testimonies
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And the Lord taught me a lot about how he works.
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And one of the things that was interesting in almost every case, not, not the exact words,
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but there was some form of this question that turned their heart away from the Lord.
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If God is good, why did he allow this in my life?
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And so I really, um, I can identify with that, but I've seen that in so many stories.
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And again, in Romans, it says that, um, they, they knew that God was true, paraphrasing a
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little bit, but it says that God's revealed himself to every man, but they glorified him
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not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imagination.
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And their foolish heart was dark and professing themselves to be wise.
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They became fools and exchanged the truth of God for a lie.
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And so I see this progression so often we can blame it on lots of other circumstances.
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I can see how lies began to come into my heart.
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I began to cut off my feminine identity and I decided that I knew better.
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And as a result, I responded in a whole lot of sexual sin, um, began to just throw myself
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at men desperate for the love and affection of men.
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Cause growing up, it was only, you know, I felt like my dad had loved me so much, never,
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But I mean, just, I was longing for the love of a man.
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And so I thought, this is the way I need to get it from other men to give them whatever
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And so I did whatever they wanted sexually, but the more that I did, the more I was broken
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and hurt and dumped and used and rejected over and over and over and over again.
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Did your parents know that this was the kind of life you were leading?
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They probably, I found out later, I think they knew a lot more than I, I said that I
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And they tried to help, but I was so rebellious.
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They were, um, there was not a lot they could do.
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And, um, but I, I was beginning to be very fractured in my soul and I felt I was always
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leaving, um, these relationships feeling so broken.
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And then I'd be on to the next guy, hoping desperately that he'd want me.
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Um, and eventually they, they sent me to a group home.
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And for a while at the group home, because I told the Lord I would never serve him again,
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Mostly it was that, that turning point really after the PCOS diagnosis or was it?
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I didn't see how my own sin and the sin of others had, had formed this, you know, God,
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it's not God that wasn't good, but I didn't understand that yet.
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And so as I began to really turn away from God, really began to embrace this lifestyle
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But I was at this group home and, um, they really put a lot of pressure on me to be a
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And it was like, I really began at one point to say, okay, I'm tired of living this rebellious
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lifestyle and all the partying and all that went along with it, but I really didn't know
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And I was trying just like my mom, I was trying so hard in my own strength and my own flesh
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to be a Christian for a couple of years, but it didn't last long.
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And I, I, and it's like, I went back into such a horrific lifestyle and went deep into
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And eventually it was so bad that I started meeting men for one night stands all over
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the state, trying so hard, even for a moment to feel fulfilled.
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So the group home was when you were a teenager?
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And so then in college, the pornography addiction came and the one night stands.
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And were you still totally presenting feminine at this point?
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Because this is 90s, early 2000s when you were going to college.
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And so I was, I was trying so hard to fix this broken identity and I was always hoping
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that a man would want me, that a man would love me.
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But when, when that, and there were times that I pursued girls, I really didn't, I wasn't
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physically attracted to girls, but I wanted a girlfriend because I wanted to solidify my
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identity as a man, but it didn't seem possible.
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I never had that concept that I could quote transition.
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So it was just a secret world that I had inside.
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But then I would, you know, as I was pursuing these relationships with these men, I finally
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at one point, I ended up in a long-term relationship, which I was always hoping for.
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And so I thought, you know, the reason this never works out, the reason I'm never happy
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And I really didn't, I'd never heard the word, but I looked it up on Google girl, becoming
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a boy, just to like, see if anybody out there, um, had ever heard this.
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And I was shocked when thousands of results came up and that's when I went to a support
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group and I began to, um, I began to really pursue that.
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You were in college and it was around what year did you start really trying to like pursue,
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So 2007 in Oklahoma still looking for, I, then was it called transgender or was it called
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I was kind of at the, the tail end of what was, um, called gender identity disorder at
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Um, now of course they've changed it to gender dysphoria, which, you know, is this term that,
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that it's like people are just unhappy with their body.
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Well, who's not unhappy with their body most of their life.
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And especially at puberty, we have so many kids that are saying they're uncomfortable with
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their body and they're being told they're trans, you know?
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And so anyway, as I began to, to pursue that lifestyle and it seems so real at first, you
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know, and I was like, this is everything I've ever wanted.
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And as people begin to affirm me as a man, it, it eased that pain for a while.
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And, you know, all the, all the changes seem to be real at first.
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And you begin to get this masculine appearance.
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I begin to, um, be called Jake was the name that I went by.
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It was one of the, um, one of the characters that I'd created for myself as a young child.
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Um, and so that was a name I had called myself some for many years, kind of secretly.
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But, um, I also, one of the reasons I wanted a name that could not ever be mistaken as a
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You know, so I was trying to come up with a name that everybody would know this is not
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And, um, but as I, you know, I began to grow facial hair, my voice began to get lower and
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all these changes at first seem to really make, seem to be real, seem to be solving the problem.
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But I was always aware that it was still fake, but it was like, well, it's going to be real
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one day because I can see these changes one day.
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But then over time I kept thinking, when does this become real?
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And after my chest surgery, um, I had a double mastectomy in 2009 and that was kind of the
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turning point because it was like, you know, this still didn't make me a man.
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And so I really began to, um, sort of go deeper into that and everything I had to,
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every little affirmation, anything I could find to affirm that identity, whether it was
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something people said, the way I dressed, the way I walked, the way I talked, everything
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had to be male to sort of affirm that identity.
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But I was constantly aware that this wasn't real.
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And I thought, you know, it's because I still have all these female hormones.
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Once I get rid of all the female hormones, then it will be real.
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So, and so then I, um, had a hysterectomy, I had the ovaries removed and it still wasn't
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And then I was shocked when I began to look at the genital reassignment surgeries and I
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I realized that it wasn't real, that this was never going to solve the problem.
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And I realized that it was completely artificial.
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And on top of that, there were lots of potential complications.
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In fact, now, um, in recent years, I've heard of one girl that has had over 30 corrective
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I know of another girl that's in a wheelchair permanently.
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I know of girls that have had major urinary problems.
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Some have had tissue necrosis where it actually, the tissue dies, all kinds of other complications.
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And on top of that, many lose sexual feeling permanently.
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I want to back up to, um, about 2007 because you said that you joined this community group
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and you started getting affirmation and you started going by the new name.
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And I'm guessing that is what started before you actually took steps to start taking testosterone
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So tell us a little bit about though, that, um, community of affirmation.
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You met with these people, you became friends with them, and then they started socially affirming
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And that's kind of first what gave you that euphoria.
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Well, even before that, when I showed up to the sport group meeting, they were, um, they
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And so within five minutes, they're like, oh, you are definitely transgender.
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And immediately started calling me Jake and immediately affirming me.
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You know, they, they didn't even know me, but then.
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And had, at that point, kind of, were you regularly dressing out in public as a man?
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And I, no one knew I was going, I didn't tell a single friend.
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I showed up to this meeting dressed as, as much as I could.
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I didn't have any chest binders yet, but I wore real tight.
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Um, hoodie kind of, and trying to look like a man.
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But, um, yeah, within a very short time of, they asked me to tell me about myself and
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they said, oh, you are definitely trans, you know?
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And I, I said, um, I was worried that I would never look like a man because I still looked
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After a year or so of taking hormones, no one will ever know you were a girl.
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And that's what I'd wanted to hear all my life.
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And now here's this group telling me everything I want to hear.
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I went to one of the requirements at the time I had to go to a therapist and I, I didn't
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have any interesting counseling at all, but this is one of the, the requirements per the
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W path standards, which is sort of the, the standards of care given to, um, to help trans
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And so after the third session, she would give me this diagnosis and give me this letter
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stating that I was diagnosed with gender identity disorder.
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But in the third session, she put down her notebook and her pen.
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She looked right in my eyes and she said, wow, you really have issues with your mom.
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How did we get from me talking about being a man to talking about my mother?
00:27:05.740
Cause I had not, um, been really paying attention to where the conversation was going.
00:27:10.100
I was just trying to fulfill this requirement, just mindlessly answering her questions.
00:27:17.180
And all of a sudden she realizes I have all this anger toward my mom, which again, my mom
00:27:25.220
I understand all the pain she was going through, everything she was trying to do, but at the
00:27:36.480
And she said, so you're just here for this diagnosis.
00:27:43.120
And she just gave me what I wanted, you know, and in what, what other medical diagnosis is
00:27:48.780
there that people can go in and say, this is true of me.
00:27:55.580
And the patient gets to determine what's best for their treatment.
00:28:03.220
And if the oncologist says, well, you don't have cancer, you don't just, you don't just
00:28:07.200
get to have that treatment because you want it.
00:28:09.460
But with this, I guess the patient just gets to self-diagnose.
00:28:14.760
And we're actually, there are people now, I don't know how common this is becoming or whether
00:28:19.260
this is actually happening, but we know that there are people now identifying as transabled
00:28:24.780
and I, I don't know, have you heard our doctors actually performing these surgeries or I know
00:28:30.000
that there's been a lot of talk about it, but I'm not sure if they're actually performing
00:28:35.680
I've talked to psychologists on this show of even, you know, outside of the whole trans
00:28:41.380
thing that there are girls, especially who, um, see some kind of tick on Tik TOK and then
00:28:49.340
And so they almost mimic the symptoms of Tourette's and they're convinced they have Tourette's or
00:28:54.720
their bipolar or multiple personality syndrome when they really don't, they've just observed
00:29:00.140
it so much and they have internalized it and they have started kind of repeating what
00:29:10.860
It seems like particularly pretending like they can't walk or something and then having
00:29:21.400
And that that's, you know, where's this going to end?
00:29:24.020
Are we going to allow people to identify however they want?
00:29:27.740
Or there there's kids that are identifying as cats.
00:29:30.620
And I, I thought these stories were bogus about schools, um, putting litter boxes in
00:29:37.720
But, you know, again, I don't know what's actually, I was told by a parent that was actually
00:29:43.060
Now, whether that's just the kids demanding that, I don't know, but there are, there's,
00:29:47.480
I've heard many stories of kids identifying as cats, kids meowing in class to answer in
00:29:52.860
the, the teachers in some cases, I'm sure not in every case, but in some cases are actually
00:29:56.680
indulging these kids as if they're, as if they're cats.
00:30:01.520
It definitely goes back to a matter of identity and confusion and not believing there's a God
00:30:06.600
who actually created us and gave us a purpose and meaning.
00:30:22.500
So you started taking, so you got from the psychologist or the, uh, psychologist she gave
00:30:44.860
And really testosterone, especially for a female who doesn't naturally have a lot of testosterone,
00:30:49.960
we have some, um, but we don't have near the levels that men do.
00:30:53.080
And it, it gives you this incredible burst of energy.
00:30:58.940
I had, I'd already been diagnosed with Hashimoto's, which is an autoimmune thyroid condition.
00:31:03.520
So I had struggled with chronic fatigue for years.
00:31:06.540
So when I went on testosterone, this made me feel amazing and it gave me, I didn't really realize that it was just giving me physical energy.
00:31:14.400
I, I thought it's because this is the answer to all my problems and I'm embracing who I really am.
00:31:19.460
Actually, it was helping me tremendously physically, even though I didn't realize how many consequences there was going to be,
00:31:25.220
because we're not intended to have that level of testosterone.
00:31:31.620
And then as people begin to affirm me, as I began to dress that way, every little affirmation reinforced that idea.
00:31:38.120
In fact, they did studies back in the eighties.
00:31:40.580
They did studies that said, um, if, if children, um, came out and said that they were transgender,
00:31:47.260
if they were not socially affirmed, if they were not, you know, they didn't even really have puberty blockers back then.
00:31:52.160
But if they were not socially affirmed, if they were encouraged in the, in the way that they were naturally born
00:31:57.760
and they were given therapy, 82 to 86%, I believe it was, desisted or said they were no longer trans after puberty.
00:32:05.560
But now when kids are socially affirmed, they, um, it's like every little step leads them further down that path.
00:32:12.460
Now, the ones that have been put on puberty blockers, 90 to 100% in some studies have wanted to go on to medical transition.
00:32:20.220
So it, it's not a pause button as they're claiming it's, it's like a fast track toward medical transition.
00:32:27.400
So all these little affirmations just reinforce this idea.
00:32:31.380
And because it's helping you escape the pain, I mean, it's, it's, it's a lot like painkillers.
00:32:36.500
You know, if you have this horrible wound in your body, that's gang, you know, has gangrene and all this, it's destroying your body.
00:32:42.640
But if you take painkillers, you're going to feel a lot better.
00:32:44.860
And that's what some of these kids tell me, you know, but I feel so much better.
00:32:49.400
You know, um, I've even had therapists that say, yes, I, I helped this kid transition.
00:32:53.320
Now they, they feel so much better and all their problems have gone away, but they're really just ignoring the problem.
00:33:00.300
And so, but as you realize it's like, everything keeps coming back to the surface.
00:33:05.360
So as, um, the fun sort of wears off for each little step and it becomes normal.
00:33:13.140
So then I had my name legally changed and like looking forward to the name, I couldn't wait for my name to be legally changed.
00:33:21.820
And your parents, did they know this was going on?
00:33:27.400
And, um, about 26 or seven by the time I got my, my name legally changed.
00:33:34.260
But, um, you know, I couldn't wait for that day.
00:33:37.140
And then when that happened, that, that you sort of ride that euphoria for a little while.
00:33:42.860
And you're always looking forward to that next step.
00:33:47.800
And in fact, I've never done, um, a lot of like hardcore drugs, but I've been told that the high is never same, the same as the original.
00:33:59.740
And it's sort of the same thing with transition.
00:34:01.880
It's like every step you're looking forward and you're looking forward to it and you can't wait.
00:34:15.020
And the more I transitioned, I thought it would lead to further freedom, but actually it became my prison cell because I began to, um, the more I transitioned, the less I told people I was trans.
00:34:26.260
And I just wanted to be a man and erase the existence of Laura is so many people.
00:34:32.060
They just want to be this other person, but you can't escape the past.
00:34:37.680
And I remember trying to, having to reinvent my life all the time, having to lie to people all the time and having to recreate things.
00:34:51.040
Like all these, all these things that I had to reinvent about my life.
00:34:54.440
And I realized I was lying to people that I really cared about, my friends, my bosses, my coworkers, things like that.
00:35:01.080
And so it really began to torment me inside and things like going to the gym with, um, I had a prosthetic genitalia that I was using.
00:35:08.720
And so like trying to change in the men's locker room without being seen and, or, you know, there was just all kinds of problems that people don't think about.
00:35:18.220
Or, um, what it was like, you know, um, because you've been called ma'am and, and I was called Laura for, you know, almost 30 years.
00:35:28.020
Um, sometimes people, if you even heard that name, you know, turn around, things like that, that you can't escape.
00:35:34.480
Or when I was with my family and there, I had some family members that affirmed me as Jake and some that didn't, um, my parents never did.
00:35:42.200
But, um, you know, even if they did, it didn't matter because I could not escape the fact that I was their sister or their aunt or whatever.
00:35:55.800
So I really began to distance myself from my family a lot and began really, um, I wanted nothing to do with God.
00:36:05.700
I thought I knew better, but over the years, it just satisfied less and less.
00:36:10.260
And I remember one day really realizing that this was never going to be real.
00:36:21.540
So now I was just left with this really broken identity.
00:36:29.280
So that was part one of our two-part conversation.
00:36:31.840
Tomorrow she will be back and she will talk more specifically about the timeline of the double mastectomy
00:36:38.120
and the hormones and what her body went through there, but also she is going to take us on her
00:36:44.760
path of redemption and healing, uh, that God providentially and very graciously placed her
00:36:51.580
There was just so much hope and so much beauty in her story.
00:36:54.080
And you are going to finish this two-part series, just feeling so grateful to the Lord
00:37:00.580
And also encouraged to love others by speaking the truth relentlessly.
00:37:07.160
Uh, thanks for listening to this episode of Relatable.