Ep 897 ｜ A Detransitioner on the Lie of Trans ‘Joy’ ｜ Guest： Laura Perry Smalts (Part Two)
Episode Stats
Words per Minute
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Summary
Laura Perry lived for nine years presenting as a man named Jake, but who was transformed by the power of the gospel and realized that her true identity as a woman is what God had created for her and also what He had called her to fulfill. In this episode, we continue her story, continue to draw gospel-centered lessons out of what she experienced, and highlight the path of redemption and healing that God took her on as she re-transitioned into who she always really was, a woman named Laura. This is an incredible story of God s healing power and how he can and will save anyone that he wants to save and redeem.
Transcript
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Today is part two of a two-part conversation with Laura Perry, who lived for nine years
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presenting as a man named Jake, but who was transformed by the power of the gospel and
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realized that her true identity as a woman is what God had created for her and also what
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And so today she is going to continue her story, continue to draw gospel-centered lessons
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out of what she experienced and specifically highlight the path of redemption and healing
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that God took her on as she re-transitioned into who she always really was, a woman named
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This is an incredible story of God's healing power and how he can and will save anyone that
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This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
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Just go to GoodRanchers.com, use code ALI at checkout.
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You were taking the testosterone, presenting as a man, I'm guessing that gave you facial
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hair, it deepened your voice, and then how long were you on testosterone before you decided
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to get what they call top surgery, which is a double mastectomy?
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I started in October of 2007 living as trans, but I wasn't able to get hormones for several
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So it was maybe a year and a half that I was on hormones.
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And you were really chasing that high of thinking, at first when you were on testosterone, you
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And then after a while, that high kind of wears off and you're like, no, well, I have to do
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the next thing that's really going to make it real, I'll finally be able to look in the
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I mean, obviously we know what it entails, but I'm sure that there was a lot of pain that
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So I was recovering in a hotel room in San Francisco with a friend of mine that really
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Well, and the reason I went to San Francisco, he was one of the world's most renowned surgeons
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for this type of surgery on female to male transgenders.
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And so I went and I paid a little more money, but he'd had really good results.
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But even more than the, the physical pain, I, um, just the, I think the hardest thing
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for me, the emotional pain of realizing that this didn't make it real because I really believed
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it was going to, I knew I, I still plan to have other surgeries in the future, but I thought
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So I really believed the dysphoria would completely go away.
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And how quickly did you realize after surgery that that wasn't it?
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I don't know that I would have come to that conclusion as soon, except I had a boss that
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Um, and I remember a few weeks I'd made, I'd, I was off for about four weeks.
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So I'd been back a couple of weeks and maybe six weeks later, she came to me and she said,
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look, I don't know what's going on with you, but you're moping around here.
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I don't know what's wrong, but I went the old Jake back and I was shocked.
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I'm the happiest I've ever been in my life, you know, and you don't know what you're talking
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And I blew her off, but I went home that night and I couldn't get out of my head.
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And I thought, what is she seeing in me that I'm not seeing in myself?
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And I finally had to admit I had been suppressing this depression because I don't know how soon
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But every time that, that little thought would come up, I would just suppress it.
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And I wouldn't allow myself to face that, that knowledge that this wasn't real.
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And in fact, I look back on my license pictures and I hear this from parents all the time that
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their kids are not as happy as they're claiming to be.
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And I look back at my driver's license pictures and I was like, wow, I can see that I was very
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You can look in my eyes and see that I was not happy, but I thought I was.
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And you, you know, you see that with a lot of these people on social media who all claim
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like their, they claim their foolproof argument is, but this makes me happy, but I feel good.
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But you kind of even look at what they're posting on social media, which I don't think is necessarily
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always a good representation of how things really are.
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But you can kind of see the sadness and the emptiness behind their eyes.
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And it's like, you're saying that you're happy and that you feel good.
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Not that even happiness is a justification for all of this, but I think that that even
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that part also seems to be a lie that maybe they're telling themselves too, not just other
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And in fact there, and I've seen many videos of the, of trans people, some of the big influencers
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over the years are beginning to question a little more.
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There are some of them that are really speaking the truth and they're not even detransitioning
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Because they're, they're not Christians, but they, they just like, they're, they're speaking
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This never fixed the problem, but there are thousands of detransitioners.
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There's so much regret out there, but they project this perfect social image.
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And one of the reasons is because they believe that people are born this way.
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I just want to help people be comfortable in this, even though they're kind of dying
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And what, what really opened my eyes to that, there was this one girl who, um, she, well,
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Now he is, um, he has a condition called Klinefelter's.
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It really should be called as Dr. Michelle Crotella puts it, a disorder of sex development.
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He has an extra X chromosome, but this only affects males.
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But so whatever condition this girl may have, regardless, she's had all the same surgeries
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and she has said, you know, she feels transgender.
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Um, but in what was amazing, she had all these videos where she was talking about how amazing
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She got on there one day and just had a really raw, honest moment.
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And she said, um, I just got, I got on here to make a really positive video, but I just
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I got to tell you the truth about what's really going on.
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And she talks about all the complications she's had.
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This is the girl that she'd had over 30 surgeries to correct this problem.
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And eventually she had, um, she says at the very end of the video, I wish I had never taken
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And here's somebody who believes she's genetically predisposed to that.
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And I've learned that a lot of trans people will tell you they're intersex because they
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In fact, I said that to my dad one time that I believed I did.
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And he said, um, okay, we'll go get a genetic test.
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I don't need that to tell me that I am, you know, I knew the truth.
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I knew that I was a girl, but regardless with all those same surgery.
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And she talked about how this never made it real.
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She, the, the whole thing was about upkeeping this image that wasn't real.
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And so, but, and then she went back after that to make all these other positive videos.
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I've got the original copy, but this is what I see so much in social media.
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They're not being honest because they want to project a certain image to people of how
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good and positive this is because it's hate speech, you know, in this culture to say the
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truth and so in their eyes, love is just telling everybody how wonderful it is.
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As a result, we have thousands of people following them.
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And, um, so, and we see people just drifting over the years and eventually you stop hearing
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I've, I've been on the social media pages of, um, some of them that are huge influencers
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And they went from making videos all the time to eventually they haven't made a video in
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months and you're like, where are all these people and what happened?
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And there's so much regret that they don't want to admit.
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Going back into your story, you got the double mastectomy, you realized, okay, you're depressed,
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but still you kept on going in that direction and thinking, yeah, but I'm just depressed because
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It will be real once I get a hysterectomy, get my ovaries removed.
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So how long after the double mastectomy did you get the hysterectomy?
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And I remember, um, at the moment having this hesitancy, knowing how permanent that was.
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Um, you know, I even had a moment thinking I should freeze my eggs.
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Not that that's a good, you know, I wasn't a Christian at the time.
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I should have never done the surgery, but I have so much regret now.
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And I don't know that the hormones over time can make you sterile anyway.
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I don't know if I would have ever had the opportunity, but I know now that God can heal
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I have so much regret about that moment, but I, but I was determined.
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I didn't want to ever have, um, a period again because it was every time I did, which wasn't
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often, I'd only had one or two the whole time I lived as trans because the hormones affect
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And, uh, but it was like, because I would feel that dysphoria, I wanted, I would do
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Um, it was so painful to be reminded that I was a woman and I didn't know why I thought
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it was because I was not supposed to be a woman.
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I didn't understand there was so much pain there because of all my sin, because of ways
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I'd been sinned against, but ways I had sinned against others, ways I'd sewn sin into
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Um, all the, the sexual people don't understand what happens when we engage in sexual sin and
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we give our heart away and it's outside God's design and it begins to tear at the soul.
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And in fact, I really believe that, um, sin outside of, or sex outside of marriage really
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empties our love tank instead of filling us and completing us in a way that God intended
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And I was, I was looking at God's design through the lens of all my pain and brokenness.
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And so I realized that this was never going to be real, but I was never going to go back
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Every time I thought about it, it was like, I would rather live as a man.
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At least everyone else thinks I'm a man, even though I realized it wasn't going to be
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And finally, um, over the years though, the Lord had been working on me and over the years,
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And in fact, he, um, he used talk radio quite a bit in my life.
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Um, for my partner of all things was one of the few people I'd ever met in the community
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I started listening to conservative talk radio, living as trans for years.
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And during this time, I know this is just an aside, but I was curious about this, um,
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because you did say at one point that like when you became a man, you would really know
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But you've also said that you weren't really attracted to women.
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And so were you with, um, men who went after you transitioned exclusively, or did you try
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Well, I, I, I went on one date with a girl in the very beginning, but she was a pretty
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And she said, um, well, I'll let you be the man this time.
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Like I'm not ever going to be the woman, you know?
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I was really not attracted to girls physically, but I used to tell people if they'd asked me about
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it, I cared a whole lot more about my gender than I cared about who I dated.
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Um, I was kind of, um, I really wanted to be affirmed as a man that was far more important
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to me at the time, but this man really pursued me.
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I look back, God really used it because he was like a mirror to me.
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I could see the truth in him, but I couldn't see in myself.
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And he was an, he pursued me like a man would pursue a woman, you know, and he, um, you know,
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he was such a masculine man in so many ways, but he was, he was trying to live this, this
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I found out years later, his mom had died when he was seven years old.
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He sort of assumed this mother role at a very young age, you know?
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Um, but he, he was, I look back and we, even at the time I understood that he was more of
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Neither of us wanted to admit that, you know, or just the difference.
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There's so much difference in things like, um, the difference in our strength, even though
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he was on estrogen and I was on testosterone, he was so much stronger than me, you know,
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And he, he took a lot of those masculine roles, even though we were trying to reverse the role
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So God really used that as kind of a mirror, but I had been listening to talk radio for years
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And over the years they talked about God little by little, um, just here and there.
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And, uh, and in fact, Glenn Beck had a huge influence on my life just over the years,
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hearing about God and begin to soften my heart a little.
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Um, and I, you know, I really wanted, um, there was a part of me that wanted to believe
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I'll say, but I didn't want God because I wanted to live my own life.
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I wanted, I knew that this wasn't God's will, but I didn't believe that God was good.
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I knew it was true, but my mom and my dad and others had been praying for me.
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And over the years, God was drawing me little by little.
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And I, you know, little steps in my life, like giving me dreams, putting other people
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I ended up at a job where my boss was a Christian.
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And one day my mom had asked me to make a website for her Bible study.
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She had no idea I was going to read these lessons.
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It was hilarious because my mom had tried to fix me for 40 years, you know, and she
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finally had really surrendered me to the Lord and she began to pursue the Lord.
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So, um, you know, there were so many things God used and I want to encourage anybody out
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Um, there were so many things that God used to influence me.
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I could list, you know, 30 different programs that had a profound impact on my life.
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But the reality was that God was reaching me in so many ways.
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And so, um, but as I began to read the lessons just out of curiosity, and I was going to summarize
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the lesson for the website, I really wasn't interested.
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It was really so for the website, but things began to jump out at me.
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God began to speak to me and he began to change my heart.
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And he showed me how much he was changing my mother.
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And at that moment, it was like, I knew the gospel was true.
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And so I began to, um, really desire to know the Lord.
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I began calling my mom and asking her questions.
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And she had been so transformed over the years.
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And so I gave my heart to the Lord and I, and it was really this really sincere moment of,
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I repented of everything I could think of, but I really gave my heart to the Lord.
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And I was, I was very sincere, but very misguided.
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I didn't have to clean up myself for God, but he didn't leave me there.
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And he began to convict me and he began to draw me out of that.
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And I'm, you know, so many people have asked me, um, well, can you live as transgender and
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Well, as a Christian, if you have the Holy Spirit, you cannot live comfortably in that lifestyle
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And I knew it was not God's will and God was drawing me away from that, drawing me out
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And so I was, um, and over the, the next year and a half, really God was just drawing my heart
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And I, I knew that God was asking me to leave that lifestyle and it was so painful.
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I really begged the Lord to take my life because I saw no way out, but God, God just began
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And I finally, um, knew that I had to obey God.
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It was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.
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I thought there was no way I could ever, um, I, I, I felt like there was no hope of transformation.
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There was no hope that I could ever feel like a girl.
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I didn't think I'd want to be a girl, but over time, God began to do a miracle in me
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And over the years, as I let go of the bitterness, as I began to forgive, as, um, as others began
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to forgive me, as I began to reconcile with my mom, as I began to replace the lies with
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And like Psalm 107 20, it's one of my favorite life verses says he sent his word to heal them
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And so God used his word to really transform me over the years.
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And I found myself little by little, you know, being okay, being a girl and then being comfortable
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in girls' clothing and then being comfortable being around other girls and seeing myself
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And then one day I looked around the room, I was in this discipleship group with these
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girls and I was like, wow, they just see me as one of the girls.
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I'd never thought that in my life that I was like the girls, that there wasn't some difference.
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You know, I wasn't just physically a girl, but different than the girls.
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And so as God brought all this healing more and more, it was like, wow, God, this is so good.
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And I actually began to ask God to teach me about his design of male and female.
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And God over the years has taught me an incredible amount of how he's designed man and woman.
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There's over 6,500 biological differences between men and women were created totally
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differently for the same purpose to glorify God as male and as female, to represent different
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aspects of God's nature, but ultimately to display the glory of Christ in the bride and of
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And so as God has been teaching me all these things, he was preparing my heart for a husband.
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And so God brought an incredible man into my life just over two years ago.
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And it's funny, we met on the rainiest, wettest day of the year, which I didn't realize until
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I was like, that's a sign of blessing and of cleansing.
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And it was like, after all my past and all these things, everything was made new.
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And so I was just married just a little over a year ago, May 14th of last year.
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Now, God is using this man to bring further healing to me, to help me understand the goodness
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And the more that I embrace femininity and embrace my God-given role as female, it brings
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You know, so often women try to take control and we try to be the lead and we try to rule
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But actually, as we allow men to lead, as we allow them to protect, not as a doormat, but
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as a way to respond, as a way of trusting God in that role, it is incredibly fulfilling.
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And it gives him the confidence to lead like he's been called to do.
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And it has just been a huge, huge blessing for me.
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And your parents, during this time, you said that they were praying for you.
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Or when you would talk to them, which I realize you had distanced yourself from them, what
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When you talked to anyone from home who were their friends, their Christian friends, how
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did they refer to you while you were identifying as Jake?
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Well, as far as friends, I had pretty much cut everybody out of my life that didn't know
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I distanced myself from everybody, even family, really, except for my partner and my family
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But the reality was, I really wasn't angry with them.
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And I was I told them how hateful they were being.
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And so you can either call me Jake or, you know, I don't know what all I threatened,
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but I'm sure at times I threatened to not talk to them or you just can't be in my life.
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They had proven they loved me, even despite the problems with my mom.
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My mom had proven that over the years, even though I was angry and I was full of unforgiveness.
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Now, they didn't intentionally try to embarrass me.
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They they struggled and struggled out in public like if we were at a restaurant with what to
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call me, but they'd call me honey or sweetie or whatever.
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But there were times my mom would accidentally call me Laura and I would be so mad.
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But at the same time, it was like, I know that that's the truth.
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And I remember it calling forth something so deep inside that was buried and it was so painful.
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But at the same time, it was like it was like bringing me back to reality.
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And when you became a Christian before you realized that this meant that God was going
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to call you to live authentically as a female, did you you started going to church and you
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Um, how was that interaction with other Christians who knew or maybe they didn't know that you were actually a woman?
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Well, I actually didn't go back to church until I detransitioned.
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Um, and I, I don't know, I, I tried several times to, to go to church and I would, there was always
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an excuse I'd wake up late or, you know, I, um, I would forget or whatever.
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There was always this plan to go to church and I wanted to, but there was so much fear,
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um, of the way people would treat me or that they would, um, you know, I thought, can I hide
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this, can I, um, and it was, I knew the truth, but I wanted desperately to be around Christians,
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but I was so afraid, but I went, I ended up going to this Bible study, um, for a few weeks
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while my partner went to New Mexico to stay with his brother for about six weeks.
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And I went to this Bible study and I remember being so hungry for Christian fellowship,
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And I had a lot of bitterness toward the church.
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I was angry at the church when, from when I was, things that had happened when I was growing
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up and, um, never felt like I fit in at youth group and just, I didn't want church, but there
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was at the same time I was feeling this, um, really longing to be with, um, be with the
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And I remember I heard, I was listening to lots and lots of preachers and Bible study leaders
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And I remember hearing a Bible study teacher say, I can tell how much you love the Lord by how
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And I thought, Oh Lord, I don't love your bride.
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And so I began to pray and ask the Lord to give me a love for his bride.
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And so I, it wasn't until I detransitioned that I went back to my parents' church, which
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I said, I would never move back to my hometown.
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And then I ended up working at the church and the church became so much a part of my life.
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And so it's been an incredible healing work and incredible restoration and redemption.
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I hear so many aspects of your story and the stories of other people who are referred to
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The similarities that you're not allowed to call out, but are there.
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Um, a couple of them that I can remember, um, I talked to a young woman named Sophie that
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she was able to transition when she was about 19 years old and went through a lot of the
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But there were two striking similarities that I noticed in your story that I've heard in
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other people's one, a history of sexual abuse that led to some form of promiscuity and
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And when I talked to Sophie, she didn't want to talk specifically about that instance, but
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she did say that she had been a victim of sexual assault and that she now realizes she
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became a believer that transition for her was trying to dissociate from her body that
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you, she kind of, and I don't know if this is true for you, but she kind of blamed her
00:26:19.660
body, her form, her femininity for what had happened to her.
00:26:23.840
And she wanted so badly, you mentioned males having power.
00:26:28.680
She didn't want to be checked out in the grocery store.
00:26:30.860
She didn't want to be on a run and some man whistle at her.
00:26:36.400
And this thought that, well, if I become a man and I no longer have breasts, then I
00:26:42.200
I won't be, you know, I won't be a victim of sexual assault again.
00:26:47.820
I think there are very different reasons that men try to transition.
00:26:51.380
But for women, this is a theme that I see over and over again.
00:26:54.980
It's a hatred of the inherent sexuality that comes with their body.
00:26:59.460
And they're trying desperately to get away from that.
00:27:06.460
And I think especially for girls, so many have been victims of sexual assault, but even some
00:27:13.200
But I will tell you, and in fact, years ago, the statistics were very, very high percentages
00:27:18.960
of those that had been molested or raped or some kind of sexual, even like graphic sexual
00:27:25.900
information or pornography is actually doing the same thing to these kids.
00:27:30.340
So even though I have so many now that will tell me, well, I was never molested.
00:27:35.720
But almost always, there is some history of pornography use.
00:27:40.720
And it introduces ideas that shouldn't be there, especially when it's prepubescent, because
00:27:45.200
you're comparing yourself to the images you're seeing.
00:27:53.040
And another very common thing I see with boys, boys that struggle with gender or sexuality
00:27:58.220
issues almost always have an issue with their father.
00:28:01.100
Either he's absent or emotionally absent, or sometimes that's just scary.
00:28:05.740
There's, here's a very typical thing I've heard of boys who, their father's in the military.
00:28:20.620
And even if he's not mean, but he's just, he's kind of tough and more rough, things like
00:28:29.260
Even if he's meaning to be very loving, it's a very, he's not used, the boy's not used to
00:28:33.720
that masculinity, especially if he has sisters or maybe the brothers aren't involved, or
00:28:40.680
You know, they're, they're meaning to rough house and play, but it can, I've heard so many
00:28:46.560
And so they cling to mom and the more they cling to mom, the more they begin to push away
00:28:51.660
the masculine identity and they begin to cut that off.
00:28:55.020
So much of transgenderism is about cutting off who you really are and you begin to dissociate.
00:29:00.240
Well, I began to think about this and talk to the Lord about this and our gender, especially
00:29:06.600
if, if, if there are over 6,500 biological differences between men and women, our sex
00:29:11.940
chromosomes are in every single cell of the body.
00:29:14.180
Every single part of the body is designed differently.
00:29:16.800
And in fact, it's the first thing declared over a child.
00:29:21.700
There's something so profound about whether we're male or female.
00:29:25.500
I think so much more than we understand now, the culture has, has made it too important
00:29:30.140
in one aspect, you know, because they're, they're saying it's, it's however you want
00:29:33.880
to identify, but I think it's profoundly important to God in a different way.
00:29:38.880
And I think as a church, we've done a disservice by, by pretending there's no difference between
00:29:44.200
And it doesn't mean that, um, one should be maligned or anything like that.
00:29:53.700
And in fact, Jesus, um, in that culture, in the, in Jesus's day, women were really put
00:30:04.360
Um, they had very little role outside the home and, um, men had much more prominence.
00:30:10.540
And yeah, Jesus, um, went to women, like the woman at the well, the woman caught in adultery
00:30:15.820
and Mary Magdalene was the first one he appeared to.
00:30:19.420
So I think women sometimes look at biblical womanhood as, as a bad thing, as something,
00:30:35.240
In fact, he, he, uh, compares his followers as his bride.
00:30:40.240
You know, there's a, there's a profound love of women.
00:30:44.160
And so I think that it's, um, it's a, it's hugely important to the Lord, but I think that,
00:30:50.780
um, there is so much brokenness in, in cutting off that identity.
00:30:56.020
And I really think as a, as a church or, um, as other viewers out there, it is so these
00:31:02.080
kids desperately need same sex role models, especially if the parents not involved or like
00:31:06.980
in my case, I needed help connecting with my mom.
00:31:10.160
I needed to see that I was like her, that my mom loved me, that she was, and really to
00:31:15.420
understand some of the problems she was going through, she was in so much pain.
00:31:19.340
She used to go to pastors and just cry out to them and say, I'm trying so hard to live
00:31:32.340
She was under so much stress and, um, these pastors would say, Francine, you just need
00:31:41.040
And so now I have a profound respect for what my mom was going through.
00:31:46.640
And I think in the church, we have so many people that are struggling that are just at
00:31:50.280
the rope's end, but we have, I think so often we try to project this perfect image
00:31:56.300
and we don't realize how much people are hurting.
00:32:02.340
The second similarity that I saw between your stories is that moment after the double
00:32:17.760
That's exactly what I heard from Sophie and I've heard from many others.
00:32:22.120
You look in the mirror and you say, hang on, I'm still not a man.
00:32:36.080
Am I ever, is this ever going to really be real?
00:32:41.340
And yet we hear from a lot of activists who say, no, these surgeries, these procedures,
00:32:49.080
even for minors, it is necessary to, and this is what they put on parents especially, but
00:32:54.060
also on the rest of us, that all of these things have to be allowed even for minors because
00:33:01.500
And so the unhappiness or depression that these people might feel, we're told, is not
00:33:07.160
because of their confusion or any past experiences, but it's because of people like you and me.
00:33:16.660
And it's because you're not allowing them as easily as they would like to do what they
00:33:23.100
If they were fully affirmed, it would really be real.
00:33:26.640
Just speak, if you can, to that lie, because a lot of people are extorted by that.
00:33:32.720
When you're told, if you don't affirm this and celebrate this and allow this, you are causing
00:33:37.140
someone to kill themselves, that's a form of emotional and moral extortion that a lot
00:33:48.820
And I'm on a part of a Reddit forum that has over 45,000 members now.
00:33:56.100
And of course, I can't guarantee they're all detransitioners.
00:33:58.760
They're supposed to be either detransitioners or those that are at least questioning.
00:34:04.380
I can go in there every day and see a post from a new detransitioner who is on there talking
00:34:16.540
Like, who lets a 14-year-old make this decision?
00:34:27.000
And there are people on there, I can't live with this.
00:34:31.040
I remember hearing a story of one girl who had a double mastectomy.
00:34:35.180
And then she went back to the doctors six months or a year later and said, I've changed
00:34:41.060
Didn't realize that that was not just replaceable.
00:34:43.520
I mean, you can, like, I have fake breast implants now, but it's not the same.
00:34:48.180
It's not the same as just putting your breasts on.
00:34:52.600
You sometimes don't have the nerves and the feeling and all of that.
00:34:58.420
And it's just, it is so heartbreaking to see the reality.
00:35:04.260
And of course, there is so much misinformation on, um, on Google and it can be really hard
00:35:11.520
Um, there, they buried some of these studies, but there are studies out there that, that
00:35:16.740
And there was one that was done in Sweden, which was a, it was either Sweden or Switzerland.
00:35:24.700
Which is a very trans affirming country, very liberal.
00:35:28.260
And they, um, did this study and they found that the suicide rates were about the same
00:35:33.600
before and after surgery, but that the, the suicide rates were much higher than the general
00:35:38.280
population, but this did not resolve the problem.
00:35:40.840
And now we're seeing thousands and thousands of detransitioners, but we're also seeing people
00:35:46.320
who are not detransitioning because they don't really see the point, like I mentioned earlier,
00:35:54.080
Um, like, um, and I don't know their real names.
00:35:56.680
I would prefer to use their, their real birth names if I knew them, but the one that goes
00:35:59.980
by Scott Nugent, um, Renee Jacks, there are many others that are speaking so boldly on
00:36:05.260
this and warning people and that they're being maligned by the media and being, um, really
00:36:10.840
being put down and being villainized really, um, for speaking the truth and they're warning
00:36:16.820
In fact, Renee Jacks has one that, um, has a book called don't get on the plane and talks
00:36:21.740
about that moment of, you know, going on a plane for an out of town surgery to have the,
00:36:27.920
the genital reassignment surgery, as I call it, and wishing he'd never gotten on the plane.
00:36:35.180
So for the people who are listening to this, they have a loved one in their life who maybe
00:36:42.200
And they're being told over and over again by this person that they love by the world.
00:36:48.300
You have to affirm, you have to use the pronouns.
00:36:52.120
You have to celebrate or else you are not loving.
00:36:56.720
Everyone wants to be seen as empathetic, especially Christians.
00:36:59.940
We're even given this kind of like counterfeit version of love that we have to emulate.
00:37:04.220
That just means affirmation and tolerance of everyone's sin.
00:37:10.740
Like, how should they approach this person if there's already a relationship?
00:37:18.380
I think, well, one, um, a lot of prayer first, really listening to the Lord.
00:37:24.060
Um, but also, um, start with a lot of questions.
00:37:29.900
There's so much pain inside and just asking them about their life or sometimes if they won't
00:37:35.260
open up, I think one of the, the ways I really learned, um, is to open up first to, um, I
00:37:42.900
learned this with my own stepson and, uh, when it was really transparent about some of the
00:37:48.340
And as I was transparent, he began to be transparent about himself.
00:37:51.560
And so I, and I've learned that with other people.
00:37:54.220
And sometimes that, that gives permission to people to, to know it's safe.
00:37:58.940
And so, you know, even if you haven't had the same struggles and I'm sure most of the,
00:38:02.780
the people listening may not have the same struggle, but say, you know, I felt like this
00:38:07.820
once, not even necessarily related to gender, whatever it might be, but actually I know
00:38:15.060
And I've seen many comments on YouTube, um, on, if you go into like, uh, stories of detransitioners,
00:38:21.320
there will always be comments about somebody that said, I felt like this, a child, as a child,
00:38:25.640
I'm so glad I wouldn't, didn't grow up in this generation because I would have been pushed
00:38:29.540
down this transgender road. But as a result, I just grew out of it. I've heard many stories
00:38:34.640
like that. So if you have a story like that, you can share, or just what God has done in
00:38:38.860
your life, but share about your struggles in some way that can relate to that person.
00:38:43.760
Even if it's not about gender, some way you didn't like yourself, some way you felt like
00:38:47.780
you didn't fit in, um, some way that you were hurt by others. Everyone has that kind of story
00:38:52.660
and how you've been helped, how you've overcome. Um, but also asking them about their story. Um,
00:38:59.840
and really this, this ultimately, I know maybe not every viewer out here is a Christian. For me,
00:39:04.820
this is really about the gospel. I, I, the Lord has done such an incredible healing work in me.
00:39:11.340
And I know that what they ultimately need is Jesus.
00:39:14.500
Yes. And amen. And they might not respond to that right away, but our, uh, our obedience is not
00:39:23.460
measured by people's response to our obedience. God measures our obedience by obedience. And so
00:39:31.100
we do our best to prayerfully speak the truth in love. And I like to remind people, this is a comfort
00:39:37.420
to me too. When I am, when I am tempted to compromise or to do what a lot of, you know,
00:39:44.200
Christians do is like, let God off the hook and that we try to pretend that the Bible doesn't say
00:39:49.740
what it really says about marriage or sexuality or gender and things like that in an attempt to
00:39:54.300
seem more loving. But if God is love first John four, eight, then we can't out love him. We can't
00:40:01.640
out love him. And to actually think that we can out love him by disagreeing with him is saying we
00:40:06.680
are more loving than God and we're not. So there's a lot of good news. If God is love first John four,
00:40:12.100
eight, he made us male and female Genesis one 27, then the most loving thing we can do
00:40:17.320
is to consistently and gently affirm that truth. Um, before we go, if you could just tell people
00:40:25.240
where they can find you and I know you wrote a book. Um, so tell us a little bit about that
00:40:29.760
and where they can buy it. Yeah. My book is called transgender to transformed. Um, and it's
00:40:34.940
my testimony, but I also give, um, some practical tips in there as well. I'm actually working on
00:40:40.260
another book at the moment. So, uh, keep your eyes peeled. You can go to my website and sign up for
00:40:44.520
my newsletter at transgender to transformed.com. Um, my next book really is going to be a little
00:40:50.280
bit of what I talked about, about God's incredible design of male and female and how, um, he's wired
00:40:56.140
us and designed us to display his glory, why it's important. And then, um, you can also contact me at
00:41:01.420
the organization I work for is called first stone ministries. Um, you can go to first stone.org
00:41:07.320
and there's a contact page there. So please reach out and I would, I'd love to get in contact with
00:41:12.100
you. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming on and taking that step to share your
00:41:18.140
testimony. So thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for having me.
00:41:22.200
Hey, related bells and related bros. If you could please leave us a five-star review wherever you
00:41:40.100
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00:41:45.540
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