Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 897 ｜ A Detransitioner on the Lie of Trans ‘Joy’ ｜ Guest： Laura Perry Smalts (Part Two)

00:00:00.000 Today is part two of a two-part conversation with Laura Perry, who lived for nine years

00:00:05.680 presenting as a man named Jake, but who was transformed by the power of the gospel and

00:00:12.100 realized that her true identity as a woman is what God had created for her and also what

00:00:19.260 God had called her to fulfill.

00:00:21.680 And so today she is going to continue her story, continue to draw gospel-centered lessons

00:00:27.320 out of what she experienced and specifically highlight the path of redemption and healing

00:00:33.020 that God took her on as she re-transitioned into who she always really was, a woman named

00:00:41.220 Laura.

00:00:42.220 This is an incredible story of God's healing power and how he can and will save anyone that

00:00:50.700 he wants to save and redeem.

00:00:52.900 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:56.940 Just go to GoodRanchers.com, use code ALI at checkout.

00:01:00.200 That's GoodRanchers.com, code ALI.

00:01:11.140 You were taking the testosterone, presenting as a man, I'm guessing that gave you facial 0.99

00:01:16.000 hair, it deepened your voice, and then how long were you on testosterone before you decided

00:01:22.060 to get what they call top surgery, which is a double mastectomy? 0.98

00:01:25.740 Yeah, I was on hormones for probably a little.

00:01:29.060 I started in October of 2007 living as trans, but I wasn't able to get hormones for several

00:01:34.780 months.

00:01:35.060 So it was maybe a year and a half that I was on hormones.

00:01:38.640 So not really very long.

00:01:40.780 And you were really chasing that high of thinking, at first when you were on testosterone, you

00:01:45.680 felt good.

00:01:46.460 And then after a while, that high kind of wears off and you're like, no, well, I have to do

00:01:51.340 the next thing that's really going to make it real, I'll finally be able to look in the

00:01:55.420 mirror and say, you are Jake.

00:01:57.560 Right.

00:01:57.880 So you got the double mastectomy.

00:02:01.580 Like, what was the physical process of that?

00:02:04.180 I mean, obviously we know what it entails, but I'm sure that there was a lot of pain that

00:02:08.120 was associated with it.

00:02:09.800 Yeah, there was.

00:02:10.860 And, you know, it was outpatient.

00:02:13.040 So I was recovering in a hotel room in San Francisco with a friend of mine that really

00:02:17.400 wasn't a nurse.

00:02:17.580 Oh, you had to go to San Francisco.

00:02:18.940 Yeah.

00:02:19.500 Well, and the reason I went to San Francisco, he was one of the world's most renowned surgeons

00:02:23.200 for this type of surgery on female to male transgenders. 0.91

00:02:26.760 And so I went and I paid a little more money, but he'd had really good results.

00:02:32.460 And, but it was, it was very painful.

00:02:35.080 But even more than the, the physical pain, I, um, just the, I think the hardest thing

00:02:43.980 for me, the emotional pain of realizing that this didn't make it real because I really believed

00:02:49.700 it was going to, I knew I, I still plan to have other surgeries in the future, but I thought

00:02:54.120 this was going to make me legally male.

00:02:56.040 So I really believed the dysphoria would completely go away.

00:03:00.520 And when it didn't, it was devastating.

00:03:02.940 And how quickly did you realize after surgery that that wasn't it?

00:03:07.160 Really?

00:03:07.680 Maybe a few weeks.

00:03:08.880 I don't know that I would have come to that conclusion as soon, except I had a boss that 0.95

00:03:13.000 was a lesbian.

00:03:14.200 And so she was very pro LGBT.

00:03:16.040 She thought this was great.

00:03:17.600 She was so excited for me.

00:03:19.460 Um, and I remember a few weeks I'd made, I'd, I was off for about four weeks.

00:03:24.880 So I'd been back a couple of weeks and maybe six weeks later, she came to me and she said,

00:03:29.180 look, I don't know what's going on with you, but you're moping around here.

00:03:32.260 You're depressed.

00:03:33.040 You're not working as hard.

00:03:33.960 You're unmotivated.

00:03:34.940 I don't know what's wrong, but I went the old Jake back and I was shocked.

00:03:38.860 It was like, what do you mean?

00:03:39.940 I'm the happiest I've ever been in my life, you know, and you don't know what you're talking

00:03:44.120 about.

00:03:44.280 I'm, I'm still recovering, but I'm fine.

00:03:47.040 And I blew her off, but I went home that night and I couldn't get out of my head.

00:03:51.600 And I thought, what is she seeing in me that I'm not seeing in myself?

00:03:55.900 And I finally had to admit I had been suppressing this depression because I don't know how soon

00:04:01.880 I would have really realized it.

00:04:03.060 But every time that, that little thought would come up, I would just suppress it.

00:04:05.900 And I wouldn't allow myself to face that, that knowledge that this wasn't real.

00:04:10.980 And, but that really forced me to face it.

00:04:14.600 I was like, I, I know that she's right.

00:04:17.300 And in fact, I look back on my license pictures and I hear this from parents all the time that

00:04:21.560 their kids are not as happy as they're claiming to be.

00:04:23.500 And I look back at my driver's license pictures and I was like, wow, I can see that I was very

00:04:28.900 depressed.

00:04:29.160 You can look in my eyes and see that I was not happy, but I thought I was.

00:04:33.140 Yeah.

00:04:33.400 And you, you know, you see that with a lot of these people on social media who all claim

00:04:38.200 like their, they claim their foolproof argument is, but this makes me happy, but I feel good.

00:04:43.820 But you kind of even look at what they're posting on social media, which I don't think is necessarily

00:04:48.660 always a good representation of how things really are.

00:04:52.760 But you can kind of see the sadness and the emptiness behind their eyes.

00:04:58.620 And it's like, you're saying that you're happy and that you feel good.

00:05:01.120 You don't look happy.

00:05:02.660 You don't look like you feel good.

00:05:04.500 Not that even happiness is a justification for all of this, but I think that that even

00:05:09.360 that part also seems to be a lie that maybe they're telling themselves too, not just other

00:05:14.880 people.

00:05:15.900 Yeah.

00:05:16.100 And in fact there, and I've seen many videos of the, of trans people, some of the big influencers

00:05:22.120 over the years are beginning to question a little more.

00:05:26.420 There are some of them that are really speaking the truth and they're not even detransitioning

00:05:30.000 necessarily because they don't see the point.

00:05:32.820 Because they're, they're not Christians, but they, they just like, they're, they're speaking

00:05:36.500 out about, this is not real.

00:05:38.040 This never fixed the problem, but there are thousands of detransitioners. 1.00

00:05:41.680 There's so much regret out there, but they project this perfect social image.

00:05:45.740 And one of the reasons is because they believe that people are born this way.

00:05:50.580 There's nothing they can do about it.

00:05:52.080 So their goal is to encourage people.

00:05:54.540 I just want to help people be comfortable in this, even though they're kind of dying

00:05:57.800 inside.

00:05:58.540 And what, what really opened my eyes to that, there was this one girl who, um, she, well,

00:06:05.180 she claims to have an intersex condition.

00:06:07.020 I don't know if that's true.

00:06:07.900 There are really rare genetic conditions.

00:06:10.580 My coworker actually has one.

00:06:11.800 Now he is, um, he has a condition called Klinefelter's.

00:06:14.980 It only affects men.

00:06:16.300 It's not a, intersex is a, a wrong term.

00:06:19.680 It really should be called as Dr. Michelle Crotella puts it, a disorder of sex development.

00:06:24.260 He has an extra X chromosome, but this only affects males.

00:06:27.980 But so whatever condition this girl may have, regardless, she's had all the same surgeries

00:06:32.700 and she has said, you know, she feels transgender.

00:06:35.860 Um, but in what was amazing, she had all these videos where she was talking about how amazing

00:06:43.460 this was.

00:06:43.920 She's so glad she transitioned.

00:06:45.200 She has no regrets.

00:06:46.500 The surgery was great, you know, on and on.

00:06:48.900 She got on there one day and just had a really raw, honest moment.

00:06:53.160 And she said, um, I just got, I got on here to make a really positive video, but I just

00:06:58.300 can't do it.

00:06:58.980 I got to tell you the truth about what's really going on.

00:07:01.260 This has been horrible.

00:07:02.140 And she talks about all the complications she's had.

00:07:04.620 She'd had surgery after surgery.

00:07:06.040 This is the girl that she'd had over 30 surgeries to correct this problem. 1.00

00:07:10.900 And eventually she had, um, she says at the very end of the video, I wish I had never taken

00:07:16.220 that first shot.

00:07:18.140 And here's somebody who believes she's genetically predisposed to that. 0.96

00:07:21.820 Whether that's true or not, I don't know.

00:07:23.540 She never said what condition.

00:07:25.260 And I've learned that a lot of trans people will tell you they're intersex because they

00:07:28.680 want justification for that.

00:07:30.140 They want like a biological justification.

00:07:33.100 Yeah.

00:07:33.400 In fact, I said that to my dad one time that I believed I did.

00:07:36.320 And he said, um, okay, we'll go get a genetic test.

00:07:39.440 And well, that's okay.

00:07:41.920 I don't need that to tell me that I am, you know, I knew the truth.

00:07:45.840 I knew that I was a girl, but regardless with all those same surgery.

00:07:49.340 And she talked about how this never made it real.

00:07:51.300 She, the, the whole thing was about upkeeping this image that wasn't real.

00:07:55.360 And all these surgeries never made it real.

00:07:57.700 This never solved the problem.

00:07:59.240 And so, but, and then she went back after that to make all these other positive videos.

00:08:03.360 Eventually she took that video down.

00:08:05.000 I had downloaded it.

00:08:06.040 I've got the original copy, but this is what I see so much in social media.

00:08:09.920 They're not being honest because they want to project a certain image to people of how

00:08:15.480 good and positive this is because it's hate speech, you know, in this culture to say the

00:08:20.780 truth and so in their eyes, love is just telling everybody how wonderful it is.

00:08:25.460 As a result, we have thousands of people following them.

00:08:29.260 And, um, so, and we see people just drifting over the years and eventually you stop hearing

00:08:33.540 from these.

00:08:34.240 I've, I've been on the social media pages of, um, some of them that are huge influencers

00:08:39.280 in this, um, um, for transgenders.

00:08:42.640 And they went from making videos all the time to eventually they haven't made a video in

00:08:47.780 months and you're like, where are all these people and what happened?

00:08:51.120 Yeah.

00:08:51.480 And there's so much regret that they don't want to admit.

00:09:05.760 Going back into your story, you got the double mastectomy, you realized, okay, you're depressed,

00:09:10.940 but still you kept on going in that direction and thinking, yeah, but I'm just depressed because

00:09:17.760 it's not real yet.

00:09:18.920 It will be real once I get a hysterectomy, get my ovaries removed.

00:09:23.660 So how long after the double mastectomy did you get the hysterectomy?

00:09:28.140 Uh, it would have been, I believe three years.

00:09:29.980 So it was 2012 and, um.

00:09:33.180 That's a big decision.

00:09:34.380 Yeah, it was.

00:09:35.460 And I remember, um, at the moment having this hesitancy, knowing how permanent that was.

00:09:42.180 Um, you know, I even had a moment thinking I should freeze my eggs.

00:09:46.500 Not that that's a good, you know, I wasn't a Christian at the time.

00:09:49.120 Not that that would have been a good solution.

00:09:51.460 I should have never done the surgery, but I have so much regret now.

00:09:54.980 I'm, I go back to that moment.

00:09:56.560 I would do anything to have that moment back.

00:09:59.240 You know?

00:09:59.840 And I don't know that the hormones over time can make you sterile anyway.

00:10:03.280 I don't know if I would have ever had the opportunity, but I know now that God can heal

00:10:08.800 and like, could I have had my own child?

00:10:12.780 I have so much regret about that moment, but I, but I was determined.

00:10:18.060 I didn't want to ever have, um, a period again because it was every time I did, which wasn't

00:10:23.320 often, I'd only had one or two the whole time I lived as trans because the hormones affect

00:10:27.520 that so much.

00:10:28.820 And, uh, but it was like, because I would feel that dysphoria, I wanted, I would do 0.98

00:10:32.640 anything to make that dysphoria go away.

00:10:35.280 Um, it was so painful to be reminded that I was a woman and I didn't know why I thought

00:10:40.120 it was because I was not supposed to be a woman.

00:10:42.060 I didn't understand there was so much pain there because of all my sin, because of ways

00:10:46.460 I'd been sinned against, but ways I had sinned against others, ways I'd sewn sin into

00:10:50.380 my own heart.

00:10:51.100 Um, all the, the sexual people don't understand what happens when we engage in sexual sin and

00:10:59.260 we give our heart away and it's outside God's design and it begins to tear at the soul.

00:11:04.980 And in fact, I really believe that, um, sin outside of, or sex outside of marriage really

00:11:12.280 empties our love tank instead of filling us and completing us in a way that God intended

00:11:17.460 inside that covenant marriage.

00:11:19.160 And so, you know, I was just all this time.

00:11:23.320 I'm so empty.

00:11:24.420 I had felt like I had no value as a woman.

00:11:26.900 I didn't understand God's good design.

00:11:29.720 And I was, I was looking at God's design through the lens of all my pain and brokenness.

00:11:35.080 And so I realized that this was never going to be real, but I was never going to go back

00:11:38.640 to being female.

00:11:39.380 There was so much pain there.

00:11:40.760 Every time I thought about it, it was like, I would rather live as a man.

00:11:44.440 At least everyone else thinks I'm a man, even though I realized it wasn't going to be

00:11:47.800 real.

00:11:48.060 I was still not ever going to go back.

00:11:50.640 And finally, um, over the years though, the Lord had been working on me and over the years,

00:11:57.060 God had been drawing me and pursuing me.

00:12:00.920 And in fact, he, um, he used talk radio quite a bit in my life.

00:12:04.400 I'd been listening to talk radio for years.

00:12:06.400 Um, for my partner of all things was one of the few people I'd ever met in the community

00:12:12.360 that were conservative.

00:12:13.700 And so we'd gotten into politics.

00:12:15.800 I started listening to conservative talk radio, living as trans for years.

00:12:19.220 Is this a man or a woman?

00:12:20.080 This was a man.

00:12:20.800 He was a biological man.

00:12:21.900 He was living as a woman. 0.97

00:12:22.980 So we were both trans.

00:12:24.480 Oh, okay.

00:12:25.120 And during this time, I know this is just an aside, but I was curious about this, um,

00:12:29.900 because you did say at one point that like when you became a man, you would really know

00:12:34.860 how to treat a woman. 0.52

00:12:35.800 But you've also said that you weren't really attracted to women.

00:12:38.080 And so were you with, um, men who went after you transitioned exclusively, or did you try

00:12:45.000 to also pursue women?

00:12:47.040 Well, I, I, I went on one date with a girl in the very beginning, but she was a pretty 1.00

00:12:51.240 masculine girl.

00:12:52.000 And she said, um, well, I'll let you be the man this time.

00:12:55.520 I was like, well, you don't get it.

00:12:56.560 Like I'm not ever going to be the woman, you know?

00:12:58.780 So I, I cut that off.

00:13:00.460 This, this man actually pursued me.

00:13:02.000 I wanted a girlfriend.

00:13:02.980 I was really not attracted to girls physically, but I used to tell people if they'd asked me about

00:13:07.660 it, I cared a whole lot more about my gender than I cared about who I dated.

00:13:12.160 Um, I was kind of, um, I really wanted to be affirmed as a man that was far more important

00:13:17.340 to me at the time, but this man really pursued me.

00:13:20.960 And it's funny.

00:13:21.480 I look back, God really used it because he was like a mirror to me.

00:13:24.860 I could see the truth in him, but I couldn't see in myself.

00:13:28.340 And he was an, he pursued me like a man would pursue a woman, you know, and he, um, you know,

00:13:35.340 he was such a masculine man in so many ways, but he was, he was trying to live this, this

00:13:40.500 female identity. 0.97

00:13:41.380 I found out years later, his mom had died when he was seven years old.

00:13:44.980 He was the oldest of four boys.

00:13:46.620 He sort of assumed this mother role at a very young age, you know?

00:13:51.040 And so he had his own story.

00:13:52.780 Um, but he, he was, I look back and we, even at the time I understood that he was more of

00:13:58.760 the man and I was the woman.

00:14:00.020 Neither of us wanted to admit that, you know, or just the difference.

00:14:04.260 There's so much difference in things like, um, the difference in our strength, even though

00:14:08.400 he was on estrogen and I was on testosterone, he was so much stronger than me, you know,

00:14:13.660 and things like that.

00:14:14.500 And he, he took a lot of those masculine roles, even though we were trying to reverse the role

00:14:19.220 and I was constantly reminded of the truth.

00:14:22.120 So God really used that as kind of a mirror, but I had been listening to talk radio for years

00:14:27.100 as a, as a result.

00:14:28.320 And over the years they talked about God little by little, um, just here and there.

00:14:33.020 And, uh, and in fact, Glenn Beck had a huge influence on my life just over the years,

00:14:37.940 hearing about God and begin to soften my heart a little.

00:14:41.520 Um, and I, you know, I really wanted, um, there was a part of me that wanted to believe

00:14:48.400 it's true.

00:14:48.960 Actually, I knew it was true.

00:14:50.240 I'll say, but I didn't want God because I wanted to live my own life.

00:14:55.160 I wanted, I knew that this wasn't God's will, but I didn't believe that God was good.

00:15:00.600 I knew it was true, but my mom and my dad and others had been praying for me.

00:15:06.520 And over the years, God was drawing me little by little.

00:15:10.160 And I, you know, little steps in my life, like giving me dreams, putting other people

00:15:14.900 in my life to speak the truth.

00:15:16.800 I ended up at a job where my boss was a Christian.

00:15:19.580 And one day my mom had asked me to make a website for her Bible study.

00:15:23.600 And I began to read her lessons.

00:15:25.480 She had no idea I was going to read these lessons.

00:15:27.080 It was hilarious because my mom had tried to fix me for 40 years, you know, and she

00:15:32.100 finally had really surrendered me to the Lord and she began to pursue the Lord.

00:15:37.120 The Lord began to change her as a result.

00:15:39.920 And this wasn't the only thing.

00:15:41.240 So, um, you know, there were so many things God used and I want to encourage anybody out

00:15:46.100 there who's praying for somebody.

00:15:47.880 Um, there were so many things that God used to influence me.

00:15:51.920 I could list, you know, 30 different programs that had a profound impact on my life.

00:15:57.640 But the reality was that God was reaching me in so many ways.

00:16:01.220 He has endless resources.

00:16:03.620 And so, um, but as I began to read the lessons just out of curiosity, and I was going to summarize

00:16:09.100 the lesson for the website, I really wasn't interested.

00:16:12.020 It was really so for the website, but things began to jump out at me.

00:16:15.580 God began to speak to me and he began to change my heart.

00:16:18.480 And he showed me how much he was changing my mother.

00:16:21.100 And at that moment, it was like, I knew the gospel was true.

00:16:23.360 This is all real.

00:16:24.780 I knew the Bible was true. 0.85

00:16:26.360 And so I began to, um, really desire to know the Lord.

00:16:30.440 I began calling my mom and asking her questions.

00:16:32.640 And she had been so transformed over the years.

00:16:35.920 And so I gave my heart to the Lord and I, and it was really this really sincere moment of,

00:16:42.060 I repented of everything I could think of, but I really gave my heart to the Lord.

00:16:45.880 But I thought I was going to be a man of God.

00:16:47.800 And I was, I was very sincere, but very misguided.

00:16:51.800 Um, but God was so gracious.

00:16:53.200 He met me where I was at.

00:16:54.500 I didn't have to clean up myself for God, but he didn't leave me there.

00:16:58.340 And he began to convict me and he began to draw me out of that.

00:17:01.880 And I'm, you know, so many people have asked me, um, well, can you live as transgender and

00:17:06.000 Christian? 0.80

00:17:06.740 Well, as a Christian, if you have the Holy Spirit, you cannot live comfortably in that lifestyle 1.00

00:17:12.840 because I was under so much conviction.

00:17:14.760 And I knew it was not God's will and God was drawing me away from that, drawing me out

00:17:18.720 of that, teaching me to trust him, you know?

00:17:21.960 And so I was, um, and over the, the next year and a half, really God was just drawing my heart

00:17:28.460 more and more.

00:17:29.780 And I, I knew that God was asking me to leave that lifestyle and it was so painful.

00:17:33.820 I really begged the Lord to take my life because I saw no way out, but God, God just began

00:17:40.240 to draw me.

00:17:41.420 And I finally, um, knew that I had to obey God.

00:17:45.200 It was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.

00:17:47.560 And I honestly had no hope.

00:17:49.380 I thought there was no way I could ever, um, I, I, I felt like there was no hope of transformation.

00:17:57.600 There was no hope that I could ever feel like a girl.

00:17:59.860 I didn't think I'd ever look like a girl.

00:18:01.620 I didn't think I'd want to be a girl, but over time, God began to do a miracle in me

00:18:06.480 that I could have never even imagined.

00:18:08.960 God began to heal me.

00:18:10.200 He began to change me and transform me.

00:18:12.540 God began to work in my heart.

00:18:14.200 And over the years, as I let go of the bitterness, as I began to forgive, as, um, as others began

00:18:19.760 to forgive me, as I began to reconcile with my mom, as I began to replace the lies with

00:18:24.000 the truth.

00:18:24.500 And like Psalm 107 20, it's one of my favorite life verses says he sent his word to heal them

00:18:30.140 and to deliver them from their destructions.

00:18:32.300 And so God used his word to really transform me over the years.

00:18:35.700 And I found myself little by little, you know, being okay, being a girl and then being comfortable

00:18:40.800 in girls' clothing and then being comfortable being around other girls and seeing myself

00:18:46.440 as a girl.

00:18:47.000 And this was a progression over the years.

00:18:48.460 And then one day I looked around the room, I was in this discipleship group with these

00:18:53.520 girls and I was like, wow, they just see me as one of the girls.

00:18:56.100 They don't see me as any different.

00:18:57.460 And that was radical to me.

00:18:59.280 I'd never thought that in my life that I was like the girls, that there wasn't some difference.

00:19:03.480 I was not some other class of girl.

00:19:06.040 You know, I wasn't just physically a girl, but different than the girls.

00:19:09.820 I was one of them.

00:19:11.380 And so as God brought all this healing more and more, it was like, wow, God, this is so good.

00:19:17.880 And I began to really love being a woman.

00:19:20.160 And I actually began to ask God to teach me about his design of male and female.

00:19:24.960 And God over the years has taught me an incredible amount of how he's designed man and woman.

00:19:30.080 There's over 6,500 biological differences between men and women were created totally

00:19:35.220 differently for the same purpose to glorify God as male and as female, to represent different

00:19:40.940 aspects of God's nature, but ultimately to display the glory of Christ in the bride and of

00:19:47.000 the reconciliation of God to man.

00:19:49.380 And so as God has been teaching me all these things, he was preparing my heart for a husband.

00:19:55.180 And so God brought an incredible man into my life just over two years ago.

00:20:00.100 And it's funny, we met on the rainiest, wettest day of the year, which I didn't realize until

00:20:05.020 recently.

00:20:05.560 I was like, that's a sign of blessing and of cleansing.

00:20:08.080 And it was like, after all my past and all these things, everything was made new.

00:20:13.060 And so I was just married just a little over a year ago, May 14th of last year.

00:20:17.820 And so this has been an incredible journey.

00:20:21.180 Now, God is using this man to bring further healing to me, to help me understand the goodness

00:20:27.300 of being female.

00:20:28.200 And the more that I embrace femininity and embrace my God-given role as female, it brings

00:20:36.580 out his masculinity.

00:20:38.680 You know, so often women try to take control and we try to be the lead and we try to rule 1.00

00:20:44.340 over.

00:20:44.900 But actually, as we allow men to lead, as we allow them to protect, not as a doormat, but

00:20:50.700 as a way to respond, as a way of trusting God in that role, it is incredibly fulfilling.

00:20:56.080 And it gives him the confidence to lead like he's been called to do.

00:21:00.820 And it has just been a huge, huge blessing for me.

00:21:17.100 And your parents, during this time, you said that they were praying for you.

00:21:21.300 And I've heard you talk about this before.

00:21:23.120 Or when you would talk to them, which I realize you had distanced yourself from them, what

00:21:28.980 name did they call you?

00:21:30.360 What pronouns did they use?

00:21:32.500 When you talked to anyone from home who were their friends, their Christian friends, how

00:21:36.980 did they refer to you while you were identifying as Jake?

00:21:40.220 Well, as far as friends, I had pretty much cut everybody out of my life that didn't know

00:21:44.260 or that knew I was trans.

00:21:46.580 Anybody I could.

00:21:47.560 I distanced myself from everybody, even family, really, except for my partner and my family

00:21:52.340 were the only ones that knew.

00:21:54.320 And my but my parents never called me Jake.

00:21:57.140 They never used the male pronouns.

00:21:58.780 And I was really mad at the time.

00:22:02.500 But the reality was, I really wasn't angry with them.

00:22:05.200 I would have said I was.

00:22:06.740 And I was I told them how hateful they were being.

00:22:10.400 You know, you just don't understand.

00:22:11.720 You have to get over.

00:22:12.420 This is who I am.

00:22:13.400 I'm never going to change.

00:22:15.080 And so you can either call me Jake or, you know, I don't know what all I threatened,

00:22:18.980 but I'm sure at times I threatened to not talk to them or you just can't be in my life.

00:22:22.480 But the reality was, I knew they loved me.

00:22:25.020 They had proven they loved me, even despite the problems with my mom.

00:22:28.820 I knew she loved me.

00:22:30.860 My mom had proven that over the years, even though I was angry and I was full of unforgiveness.

00:22:35.200 But they had they had proven they loved me.

00:22:39.000 But it was like a tethered reality to me.

00:22:41.440 It never let me forget who I was.

00:22:43.520 Now, they didn't intentionally try to embarrass me.

00:22:46.080 They they struggled and struggled out in public like if we were at a restaurant with what to

00:22:49.720 call me, but they'd call me honey or sweetie or whatever.

00:22:52.480 But there were times my mom would accidentally call me Laura and I would be so mad.

00:22:57.020 But at the same time, it was like, I know that that's the truth.

00:23:00.640 And I remember it calling forth something so deep inside that was buried and it was so painful.

00:23:05.660 But at the same time, it was like it was like bringing me back to reality.

00:23:10.180 Mm hmm.

00:23:10.980 And when you became a Christian before you realized that this meant that God was going 0.92

00:23:15.800 to call you to live authentically as a female, did you you started going to church and you

00:23:21.380 started trying to live as a Christian?

00:23:22.660 Um, how was that interaction with other Christians who knew or maybe they didn't know that you were actually a woman?

00:23:31.280 Well, I actually didn't go back to church until I detransitioned. 0.70

00:23:33.840 Um, and I, I don't know, I, I tried several times to, to go to church and I would, there was always

00:23:41.140 an excuse I'd wake up late or, you know, I, um, I would forget or whatever.

00:23:45.200 There was always this plan to go to church and I wanted to, but there was so much fear,

00:23:49.640 um, of the way people would treat me or that they would, um, you know, I thought, can I hide

00:23:55.300 this, can I, um, and it was, I knew the truth, but I wanted desperately to be around Christians,

00:24:04.960 but I was so afraid, but I went, I ended up going to this Bible study, um, for a few weeks

00:24:10.320 while my partner went to New Mexico to stay with his brother for about six weeks.

00:24:14.240 And I went to this Bible study and I remember being so hungry for Christian fellowship,

00:24:18.280 but I was scared to go to church.

00:24:20.080 And I had a lot of bitterness toward the church.

00:24:22.300 I was angry at the church when, from when I was, things that had happened when I was growing

00:24:26.240 up and, um, never felt like I fit in at youth group and just, I didn't want church, but there

00:24:32.780 was at the same time I was feeling this, um, really longing to be with, um, be with the

00:24:38.660 church.

00:24:38.880 And I remember I heard, I was listening to lots and lots of preachers and Bible study leaders

00:24:43.360 online, lots of Christian podcasts.

00:24:45.760 And I remember hearing a Bible study teacher say, I can tell how much you love the Lord by how

00:24:50.060 much you love his bride.

00:24:51.660 And I thought, Oh Lord, I don't love your bride.

00:24:55.080 And I knew that was true.

00:24:56.600 And so I began to pray and ask the Lord to give me a love for his bride.

00:25:00.080 And so I, it wasn't until I detransitioned that I went back to my parents' church, which

00:25:04.840 I said, I was never going to go back to.

00:25:06.520 I said, I would never move back to my hometown.

00:25:08.420 I was never going to live with my parents.

00:25:09.740 God had me do all of those things.

00:25:11.440 And then I ended up working at the church and the church became so much a part of my life.

00:25:15.920 And so it's been an incredible healing work and incredible restoration and redemption.

00:25:21.540 Yeah.

00:25:22.020 I hear so many aspects of your story and the stories of other people who are referred to

00:25:27.180 as detransitioners. 1.00

00:25:28.380 And it's really amazing.

00:25:30.020 The similarities that you're not allowed to call out, but are there.

00:25:33.940 Um, a couple of them that I can remember, um, I talked to a young woman named Sophie that

00:25:39.460 she was able to transition when she was about 19 years old and went through a lot of the

00:25:43.880 same process that you did.

00:25:45.060 But there were two striking similarities that I noticed in your story that I've heard in

00:25:49.100 other people's one, a history of sexual abuse that led to some form of promiscuity and

00:25:55.520 seeking male affirmation.

00:25:57.560 And when I talked to Sophie, she didn't want to talk specifically about that instance, but

00:26:02.020 she did say that she had been a victim of sexual assault and that she now realizes she

00:26:06.520 became a believer that transition for her was trying to dissociate from her body that

00:26:15.340 you, she kind of, and I don't know if this is true for you, but she kind of blamed her

00:26:19.660 body, her form, her femininity for what had happened to her.

00:26:23.840 And she wanted so badly, you mentioned males having power.

00:26:27.320 She wanted to have the power.

00:26:28.680 She didn't want to be checked out in the grocery store. 0.68

00:26:30.860 She didn't want to be on a run and some man whistle at her.

00:26:34.160 She didn't want to feel like an object.

00:26:36.400 And this thought that, well, if I become a man and I no longer have breasts, then I

00:26:41.240 won't have to suffer.

00:26:42.200 I won't be, you know, I won't be a victim of sexual assault again.

00:26:45.600 It's like a form of self-protection.

00:26:47.820 I think there are very different reasons that men try to transition.

00:26:51.380 But for women, this is a theme that I see over and over again. 1.00

00:26:54.980 It's a hatred of the inherent sexuality that comes with their body.

00:26:59.460 And they're trying desperately to get away from that.

00:27:02.180 Yeah.

00:27:02.700 Yeah, absolutely.

00:27:03.600 I think you're right.

00:27:04.540 I hear this in so many stories.

00:27:06.460 And I think especially for girls, so many have been victims of sexual assault, but even some

00:27:11.880 of the boys.

00:27:13.200 But I will tell you, and in fact, years ago, the statistics were very, very high percentages

00:27:18.960 of those that had been molested or raped or some kind of sexual, even like graphic sexual

00:27:25.900 information or pornography is actually doing the same thing to these kids.

00:27:30.340 So even though I have so many now that will tell me, well, I was never molested.

00:27:33.940 I was never raped.

00:27:34.840 I was never assaulted.

00:27:35.720 But almost always, there is some history of pornography use.

00:27:40.720 And it introduces ideas that shouldn't be there, especially when it's prepubescent, because

00:27:45.200 you're comparing yourself to the images you're seeing.

00:27:48.080 And it's like, well, I'll never be that.

00:27:50.420 And it creates so much insecurity.

00:27:53.040 And another very common thing I see with boys, boys that struggle with gender or sexuality

00:27:58.220 issues almost always have an issue with their father.

00:28:01.100 Either he's absent or emotionally absent, or sometimes that's just scary.

00:28:05.740 There's, here's a very typical thing I've heard of boys who, their father's in the military.

00:28:12.100 And while dad's away, they're clinging to mom.

00:28:14.520 Mom is very safe, very nurturing.

00:28:16.880 And that's really what they know.

00:28:19.100 And then dad comes home.

00:28:20.620 And even if he's not mean, but he's just, he's kind of tough and more rough, things like

00:28:25.540 that.

00:28:25.880 Kind of the discipline giver.

00:28:28.460 And yeah.

00:28:28.860 Yeah.

00:28:29.260 Even if he's meaning to be very loving, it's a very, he's not used, the boy's not used to

00:28:33.720 that masculinity, especially if he has sisters or maybe the brothers aren't involved, or

00:28:37.780 sometimes boys have abusive brothers.

00:28:40.680 You know, they're, they're meaning to rough house and play, but it can, I've heard so many

00:28:44.640 young boys say that masculinity was scary.

00:28:46.560 And so they cling to mom and the more they cling to mom, the more they begin to push away

00:28:51.660 the masculine identity and they begin to cut that off.

00:28:55.020 So much of transgenderism is about cutting off who you really are and you begin to dissociate. 0.99

00:29:00.240 Well, I began to think about this and talk to the Lord about this and our gender, especially

00:29:06.600 if, if, if there are over 6,500 biological differences between men and women, our sex

00:29:11.940 chromosomes are in every single cell of the body.

00:29:14.180 Every single part of the body is designed differently.

00:29:16.800 And in fact, it's the first thing declared over a child.

00:29:19.940 It's a boy or it's a girl.

00:29:21.700 There's something so profound about whether we're male or female.

00:29:25.500 I think so much more than we understand now, the culture has, has made it too important

00:29:30.140 in one aspect, you know, because they're, they're saying it's, it's however you want

00:29:33.880 to identify, but I think it's profoundly important to God in a different way.

00:29:38.880 And I think as a church, we've done a disservice by, by pretending there's no difference between

00:29:43.540 men and women.

00:29:44.200 And it doesn't mean that, um, one should be maligned or anything like that.

00:29:49.140 Both glorify God in different ways.

00:29:52.200 Both are equally valued.

00:29:53.700 And in fact, Jesus, um, in that culture, in the, in Jesus's day, women were really put 0.95

00:29:59.140 down.

00:29:59.480 They had very little role in society.

00:30:01.260 They were used, they were abused.

00:30:02.800 They often couldn't work.

00:30:04.360 Um, they had very little role outside the home and, um, men had much more prominence.

00:30:10.540 And yeah, Jesus, um, went to women, like the woman at the well, the woman caught in adultery 0.81

00:30:15.820 and Mary Magdalene was the first one he appeared to.

00:30:19.420 So I think women sometimes look at biblical womanhood as, as a bad thing, as something, 0.99

00:30:25.860 as some kind of curse.

00:30:26.700 I used to think it was a curse to be a woman. 1.00

00:30:28.340 God didn't love me as much as men, you know? 0.97

00:30:30.620 So he made me a woman, but that wasn't true.

00:30:33.100 God highly values women.

00:30:35.240 In fact, he, he, uh, compares his followers as his bride.

00:30:40.240 You know, there's a, there's a profound love of women. 1.00

00:30:44.160 And so I think that it's, um, it's a, it's hugely important to the Lord, but I think that,

00:30:50.780 um, there is so much brokenness in, in cutting off that identity.

00:30:56.020 And I really think as a, as a church or, um, as other viewers out there, it is so these

00:31:02.080 kids desperately need same sex role models, especially if the parents not involved or like

00:31:06.980 in my case, I needed help connecting with my mom.

00:31:10.160 I needed to see that I was like her, that my mom loved me, that she was, and really to

00:31:15.420 understand some of the problems she was going through, she was in so much pain.

00:31:19.340 She used to go to pastors and just cry out to them and say, I'm trying so hard to live

00:31:25.820 this Christian life.

00:31:26.700 And she was so stressed out.

00:31:28.220 She was burned out.

00:31:29.000 She was just maxed out.

00:31:30.720 In fact, she started having heart problems.

00:31:32.340 She was under so much stress and, um, these pastors would say, Francine, you just need

00:31:37.240 to try harder.

00:31:38.260 And she was giving, given no help.

00:31:41.040 And so now I have a profound respect for what my mom was going through.

00:31:46.180 Yeah.

00:31:46.640 And I think in the church, we have so many people that are struggling that are just at

00:31:50.280 the rope's end, but we have, I think so often we try to project this perfect image

00:31:56.300 and we don't realize how much people are hurting.

00:32:02.340 The second similarity that I saw between your stories is that moment after the double

00:32:16.900 mastectomy.

00:32:17.760 That's exactly what I heard from Sophie and I've heard from many others.

00:32:22.120 You look in the mirror and you say, hang on, I'm still not a man.

00:32:26.780 For her, she was looking at her physical self.

00:32:29.360 She was saying, hang on, I still have hips. 1.00

00:32:31.260 I still have curves.

00:32:32.340 I'm still not as strong as my male friends.

00:32:35.640 Hang on.

00:32:36.080 Am I ever, is this ever going to really be real?

00:32:41.340 And yet we hear from a lot of activists who say, no, these surgeries, these procedures,

00:32:49.080 even for minors, it is necessary to, and this is what they put on parents especially, but

00:32:54.060 also on the rest of us, that all of these things have to be allowed even for minors because

00:32:59.360 it's preventing suicide.

00:33:01.100 Right.

00:33:01.500 And so the unhappiness or depression that these people might feel, we're told, is not

00:33:07.160 because of their confusion or any past experiences, but it's because of people like you and me.

00:33:12.220 It's because of Christianity. 0.91

00:33:13.620 It's because of Republicans.

00:33:15.060 It's because of these laws.

00:33:16.660 And it's because you're not allowing them as easily as they would like to do what they

00:33:20.980 want.

00:33:21.220 Really, then they would be happy.

00:33:23.100 If they were fully affirmed, it would really be real.

00:33:26.640 Just speak, if you can, to that lie, because a lot of people are extorted by that.

00:33:32.720 When you're told, if you don't affirm this and celebrate this and allow this, you are causing

00:33:37.140 someone to kill themselves, that's a form of emotional and moral extortion that a lot

00:33:42.760 of people can't resist, especially parents.

00:33:45.240 Yeah, absolutely.

00:33:47.000 And that is the real tragedy.

00:33:48.820 And I'm on a part of a Reddit forum that has over 45,000 members now.

00:33:56.100 And of course, I can't guarantee they're all detransitioners. 1.00

00:33:58.760 They're supposed to be either detransitioners or those that are at least questioning. 1.00

00:34:02.480 But there are thousands and thousands.

00:34:04.380 I can go in there every day and see a post from a new detransitioner who is on there talking

00:34:09.040 about how they were lied to.

00:34:11.440 Why didn't anybody tell me the truth?

00:34:13.080 Why did the doctors let me do?

00:34:14.640 I remember one kid saying I was 14.

00:34:16.540 Like, who lets a 14-year-old make this decision?

00:34:19.600 And they had chest surgery.

00:34:21.300 And so much regret.

00:34:23.560 So much.

00:34:24.780 And these kids are still suicidal.

00:34:27.000 And there are people on there, I can't live with this.

00:34:29.000 I can't live with what I've done to my body.

00:34:31.040 I remember hearing a story of one girl who had a double mastectomy.

00:34:35.180 And then she went back to the doctors six months or a year later and said, I've changed

00:34:38.720 my mind.

00:34:39.120 I don't want this.

00:34:39.940 Can you put them back on?

00:34:41.060 Didn't realize that that was not just replaceable.

00:34:43.520 I mean, you can, like, I have fake breast implants now, but it's not the same.

00:34:48.180 It's not the same as just putting your breasts on. 0.80

00:34:50.640 You can't, you don't have the mammary glands. 1.00

00:34:52.600 You sometimes don't have the nerves and the feeling and all of that.

00:34:55.920 Yeah.

00:34:56.100 It's just, it's not the same, you know?

00:34:58.420 And it's just, it is so heartbreaking to see the reality.

00:35:03.380 And they've done studies.

00:35:04.260 And of course, there is so much misinformation on, um, on Google and it can be really hard

00:35:10.100 to find the truth.

00:35:11.520 Um, there, they buried some of these studies, but there are studies out there that, that

00:35:16.060 tell the truth.

00:35:16.740 And there was one that was done in Sweden, which was a, it was either Sweden or Switzerland.

00:35:20.860 It was Sweden.

00:35:21.580 Sweden.

00:35:21.840 Okay.

00:35:22.260 If it's the one I'm thinking of.

00:35:24.040 Yeah.

00:35:24.460 Yeah.

00:35:24.700 Which is a very trans affirming country, very liberal.

00:35:28.260 And they, um, did this study and they found that the suicide rates were about the same

00:35:33.600 before and after surgery, but that the, the suicide rates were much higher than the general

00:35:38.280 population, but this did not resolve the problem.

00:35:40.840 And now we're seeing thousands and thousands of detransitioners, but we're also seeing people 1.00

00:35:46.320 who are not detransitioning because they don't really see the point, like I mentioned earlier,

00:35:50.780 but are speaking out against this very boldly.

00:35:54.080 Um, like, um, and I don't know their real names.

00:35:56.680 I would prefer to use their, their real birth names if I knew them, but the one that goes

00:35:59.980 by Scott Nugent, um, Renee Jacks, there are many others that are speaking so boldly on

00:36:05.260 this and warning people and that they're being maligned by the media and being, um, really

00:36:10.840 being put down and being villainized really, um, for speaking the truth and they're warning

00:36:16.100 people.

00:36:16.820 In fact, Renee Jacks has one that, um, has a book called don't get on the plane and talks

00:36:21.740 about that moment of, you know, going on a plane for an out of town surgery to have the,

00:36:27.920 the genital reassignment surgery, as I call it, and wishing he'd never gotten on the plane.

00:36:33.920 Yeah.

00:36:35.180 So for the people who are listening to this, they have a loved one in their life who maybe

00:36:39.940 is trying to live as the opposite sex. 1.00

00:36:42.200 And they're being told over and over again by this person that they love by the world.

00:36:48.300 You have to affirm, you have to use the pronouns.

00:36:50.880 You have to go along with it.

00:36:52.120 You have to celebrate or else you are not loving.

00:36:55.200 Everyone wants to be loving.

00:36:56.720 Everyone wants to be seen as empathetic, especially Christians.

00:36:59.940 We're even given this kind of like counterfeit version of love that we have to emulate.

00:37:04.220 That just means affirmation and tolerance of everyone's sin.

00:37:07.820 But like, what, what's your advice?

00:37:10.740 Like, how should they approach this person if there's already a relationship?

00:37:15.060 How do they really speak the truth in love?

00:37:18.380 I think, well, one, um, a lot of prayer first, really listening to the Lord.

00:37:24.060 Um, but also, um, start with a lot of questions.

00:37:27.680 They want desperately to be heard.

00:37:29.900 There's so much pain inside and just asking them about their life or sometimes if they won't

00:37:35.260 open up, I think one of the, the ways I really learned, um, is to open up first to, um, I

00:37:42.900 learned this with my own stepson and, uh, when it was really transparent about some of the

00:37:47.560 things I'd been through.

00:37:48.340 And as I was transparent, he began to be transparent about himself.

00:37:51.560 And so I, and I've learned that with other people.

00:37:54.220 And sometimes that, that gives permission to people to, to know it's safe.

00:37:58.940 And so, you know, even if you haven't had the same struggles and I'm sure most of the,

00:38:02.780 the people listening may not have the same struggle, but say, you know, I felt like this

00:38:07.820 once, not even necessarily related to gender, whatever it might be, but actually I know

00:38:11.680 I've been told by many, many, many parents.

00:38:15.060 And I've seen many comments on YouTube, um, on, if you go into like, uh, stories of detransitioners,

00:38:21.320 there will always be comments about somebody that said, I felt like this, a child, as a child,

00:38:25.640 I'm so glad I wouldn't, didn't grow up in this generation because I would have been pushed

00:38:29.540 down this transgender road. But as a result, I just grew out of it. I've heard many stories 1.00

00:38:34.640 like that. So if you have a story like that, you can share, or just what God has done in

00:38:38.860 your life, but share about your struggles in some way that can relate to that person.

00:38:43.760 Even if it's not about gender, some way you didn't like yourself, some way you felt like

00:38:47.780 you didn't fit in, um, some way that you were hurt by others. Everyone has that kind of story

00:38:52.660 and how you've been helped, how you've overcome. Um, but also asking them about their story. Um,

00:38:59.840 and really this, this ultimately, I know maybe not every viewer out here is a Christian. For me,

00:39:04.820 this is really about the gospel. I, I, the Lord has done such an incredible healing work in me.

00:39:11.340 And I know that what they ultimately need is Jesus.

00:39:14.500 Yes. And amen. And they might not respond to that right away, but our, uh, our obedience is not

00:39:23.460 measured by people's response to our obedience. God measures our obedience by obedience. And so

00:39:31.100 we do our best to prayerfully speak the truth in love. And I like to remind people, this is a comfort

00:39:37.420 to me too. When I am, when I am tempted to compromise or to do what a lot of, you know,

00:39:44.200 Christians do is like, let God off the hook and that we try to pretend that the Bible doesn't say 1.00

00:39:49.740 what it really says about marriage or sexuality or gender and things like that in an attempt to

00:39:54.300 seem more loving. But if God is love first John four, eight, then we can't out love him. We can't

00:40:01.640 out love him. And to actually think that we can out love him by disagreeing with him is saying we

00:40:06.680 are more loving than God and we're not. So there's a lot of good news. If God is love first John four,

00:40:12.100 eight, he made us male and female Genesis one 27, then the most loving thing we can do

00:40:17.320 is to consistently and gently affirm that truth. Um, before we go, if you could just tell people

00:40:25.240 where they can find you and I know you wrote a book. Um, so tell us a little bit about that

00:40:29.760 and where they can buy it. Yeah. My book is called transgender to transformed. Um, and it's

00:40:34.940 my testimony, but I also give, um, some practical tips in there as well. I'm actually working on

00:40:40.260 another book at the moment. So, uh, keep your eyes peeled. You can go to my website and sign up for

00:40:44.520 my newsletter at transgender to transformed.com. Um, my next book really is going to be a little

00:40:50.280 bit of what I talked about, about God's incredible design of male and female and how, um, he's wired

00:40:56.140 us and designed us to display his glory, why it's important. And then, um, you can also contact me at

00:41:01.420 the organization I work for is called first stone ministries. Um, you can go to first stone.org

00:41:07.320 and there's a contact page there. So please reach out and I would, I'd love to get in contact with

00:41:12.100 you. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming on and taking that step to share your

00:41:18.140 testimony. So thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for having me.

00:41:22.200 Hey, related bells and related bros. If you could please leave us a five-star review wherever you

00:41:40.100 listen to relatable, that would mean so much to us. And it really does help the show. Also,

00:41:45.540 if you haven't subscribed to our YouTube channel, please do. Thanks.

00:41:52.200 Bye.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - October 26, 2023

Ep 897 ｜ A Detransitioner on the Lie of Trans ‘Joy’ ｜ Guest： Laura Perry Smalts (Part Two)

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