Ep 898 ｜ Are Aliens Biblically Possible？ ｜ Guests： Jeremiah Roberts & Andrew Soncrant of 'Cultish'
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Summary
Are aliens real? And if so, how does this fit into biblical theology? Our guests today, Andrew Sondkrant and Jeremiah Roberts from The Cultish Podcast, are going to answer these questions for us today.
Transcript
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Are aliens real? And if so, how does this fit into biblical theology? Our guests today,
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Andrew Sondkrant and Jeremiah Roberts from the Cultish podcast are going to answer these questions
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for us today, and many more are talking all about extraterrestrial life and alien encounters,
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what the government may know or not know. What is really going on here? There are a lot of
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questions and a lot of controversies about this, and we're going to do our best to wade into as
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many of them as possible. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to
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GoodRanchers.com. Use promo code Allie at checkout. That's GoodRanchers.com, code Allie.
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All right, guys. Welcome back. We're going to talk about aliens today. I have talked about aliens,
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I think, one other time, but I didn't really get the answers that I was looking for.
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So I've got questions for y'all. I just want to know, do you think it is possible, theologically,
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physically possible, for there to be extraterrestrial creatures out there on another planet?
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So the short answer is yes. The rest of the podcast will probably be some conversations about
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how do we actually expound on that? And there's a lot of different places to begin. So I'm going to,
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you know, there's a lot of different areas. And you think about the culture, you know, aliens,
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UFOs, alien abductions. This is articulated in, you know, different movies. This is articulated
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both in pop culture. And now you're seeing it on regularly on, you know, shows like Tucker Carlson,
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when he was, when he was around on Fox News. I mean, on all the different channels, you've seen
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even people like Marco Rubio and politicians are talking about, we need to have more transparency,
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what whistleblowers can come forward without consequence. So what normally has been really
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kind of like a tinfoil, X-Files, you only talk about this in Reddit chats. This has now been
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something that you see on the nightly news in conversation on a regular basis, where this is
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becoming very normative, where it was very taboo just a couple decades ago. And a lot of us were
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wondering, okay, well, where do we begin? Because there's so many different layers of storylines.
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Do you begin with, you know, the government coverups of Roswell? Do you begin with any of
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the other UFO appearings? And so what I want to talk about, actually, and this is something that
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may surprise you, I want to talk about Tom DeLonge from Blink-182. Now that may surprise you. What
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on earth does Tom DeLonge from Blink-182 have to do with UFOs and aliens? Or really in a very simplistic
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terms, his story is that, you know, when you think about 20 years ago, when they are on tour,
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when they hit the big times is that, you know, you didn't have your phone, you didn't have Facebook,
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you didn't have social media, you really had a lot of free time in between tour dates. And so he just
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became obsessed with studying up everything that he could. He was always fascinated from a very young
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age with a topic of UFOs and aliens. And really, at some point, he really, he would end up happening
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is that he always realized that when it comes to the government, I mean, of course, the United States
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government does not have the greatest history of always being transparent with their citizens.
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That's not just when it comes to the topic of UFOs and aliens. Look at 2020, right? Two days of
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flattening, two days of flattening the curve, right? And so when you, Tom DeLonge, what ended up
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happening is he watched the film 13 Days, which is about the Cuban Missile Crisis. And he really saw
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that in that, a lot of what was told about the Cuban Missile Crisis, he was able to really understand
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the complexities of what the Kennedy administration and what was going on during those times to avoid
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really a potential nuclear holocaust. And so he had this idea, well, how will I kind of work as a
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liaison, as a catalyst to talk to the government to say, hey, how can I help you guys decipher this
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information? Because you're not the best, you don't have the best PR. How can I help you decipher
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this information to the public in a way that's digestible and palatable? And so he really had
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studied in depth the different UFO abductions, UFO coverups, those sorts of things. And it was very,
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very interesting. I remember hearing him back on the Joe Rogan experience. This is back in 2016 or
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2017. And most people, when they heard that interview, thought he had completely lost his
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marbles. He was talking about how he's working in coercion with the government to move forward,
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talk about all these different alien revelations and disclosures. A lot of people thought he was
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crazy. Well, it was actually confirmed he was doing, working alongside the government. When the whole
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WikiLeaks case came out back in the 2016 election, part of that WikiLeaks stump was Tom DeLonge had a
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little cameo appearance that he actually was working alongside different government institutions. And so
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you can actually look this up online. He has an organization called To the Stars Academy. And in
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that, he's working alongside a bunch of different scientists, physicists, with people with very,
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very highly credentialed to really explore this issue of UFOs, or really the proper term people
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are referring to now is unidentified aerial phenomena. So what you're seeing is that it's
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gone to a point where there's been multiple moments of collaboration of different points all over the
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world of people who are seeing objects in the sky that are moving in such a way that really defies the
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laws of physics, where they're moving very quickly, they're stopping, they're making turns, which no
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aircraft of any government is able to, that has any sort of craft that can articulate those sorts of
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movements. Another example would be somebody named Commander David Frazier. Frazier, and he was a F-16
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pilot, and he had an encounter off of, I believe, off in California. And he captured on his,
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on his, on his F-16, this, they call it a tic-tac. And this, this was moving in such a way that,
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again, defied the laws of physics. If this had been an actual, actual spacecraft or something from
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another, another government, it would have been considered an act of war because it was in a
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restricted airspace. And so what you're really seeing is that there is something going on that
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is, like I said, irrefutable, incontrovertible. There is a phenomena in the sky. Multiple people have
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seen these. And where it comes, and we can definitely unravel this with questions that you
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have, Allie, is that as Christians, this is something that the world is taking very, very
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seriously. When you actually look at the people involved in To The Stars Academy, these are people
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who are highly accredited. They're not, they initially didn't get these credentials to go,
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hey, I'm going out there to talk about UFOs and this unidentified area of phenomena. But they see this
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as important to explain and to discuss. And the importance is that when people approach this
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subject, regardless of what worldview you have, what immediately comes into question is like,
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what is the nature of truth? What is the nature of reality? If there truly are aliens or extraterrestrials
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who live on another planet, what does that say if you are a Christian? If you believe that Jesus is
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God come in the flesh, that he became a man, that he died on the cross for our sins, what, like,
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how do aliens fit into that? So I think as being a Christian, we look at all the developments,
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for example, with what Tom DeLonge has done with To The Stars Academy, or if you look at all the
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other documentaries that have come out recently, there's a documentary, if you want to, we'll
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talk about in a little bit called Point of Contact, or Moment of Contact. It's what we call one or the
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other. It's by someone named James Fox, who's recently on the Joe Rogan Experience. He's talking about
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this event that took place in 1996 in Brazil, of a, from this wall town, it's called Varginia. Brazil
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sounds like Virginia, but it's called Varginia, where there's multiple people 20 years later who all
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independently verify and really believe and insist that there is a spacecraft that crashed.
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There is these small, black-like, weird, alien-looking creatures. They're very similar to every other
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articulation, even all other parts of the world, that worked their way into this town, and they
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actually showed up at a small boarding school, which there were several women who at that time
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were 13 to 14 years old who had this encounter with these creatures, and they still all attest to
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it to this day. And so the question is, when people look at these things, they immediately begin to
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question, okay, what is the nature of truth? What is the nature of reality? And what also ends up
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happening, which will unravel this, it always, always lead, UFO sightings, they always lead to
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interest in extraterrestrials, which always leads to interest in extraterrestrial contact. And what
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you'll find out is that once you go down that rabbit hole, that extraterrestrial contact comes by
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typically occult or New Age practices, which, God forbids, but almost always go there. They're
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inseparable from each other, and that's why important as Christians, we need to be able to
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engage this in a biblical way and not be afraid of it. Yeah. Andrew, what would you add to that?
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Yeah, I think it's important to define terms as well when we're talking about UAPs, UFOs, aliens.
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We've been using the term extraterrestrial, but there's also interdimensional. I believe that the
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Bible is very clear in the creation account. I believe that the creation account is literal. It's a
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literal six days. Moses recounts it in Exodus 20, 11 by saying it was days, Exodus 31 as well.
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And what we notice in the creation account is that the earth is actually created before all of the
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sun, moon, and stars. And that's reality according to the creation account, and that humans are the
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pinnacle of the creation. So in terms of Christians believing in extraterrestrial life, other places in
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the universe, I don't think there's anyone else made in the image of God. I think humans are that
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pinnacle of God's creation. There could be organisms which have been found on different
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planets. I believe according to the evidence that we have shown in with these appearances of these
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beings, they tend more to lean towards interdimensional beings than they do actual
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extraterrestrial beings that have formed through evolutionary processes. One documentary as well that
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we can talk about is Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind with Dr. Stephen Greer. You can watch videos with
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him as well. I'm not sure if he's been on Joe Rogan. Has he been on Joe Rogan?
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So he also has experiences, and Tom DeLonge has experiences with Stephen Greer as well,
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to where they get extraterrestrial contact, or I would say interdimensional. See, even me,
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I use the terms that we use all the time. Interdimensional being contact through forms of
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transcendental meditation. You can watch videos where orbs start appearing, shooting and darting
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around the sky. I mean, even the book of Ezekiel in the first chapter, it describes forms of angels
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like hot metal burning coal circles, dashing to and fro like lightning. So it would be no surprise to
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me that demons can take very similar forms that defy physics and laws of nature because they're not
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from this dimension essentially, but can take form and shape. So that's my personal opinion in terms of
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being in a more biblical form or construct. I don't see extraterrestrial life made in the image
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of God being something that's somewhere else in the universe, according to the creation account.
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Tell me a little bit more about where this all does fall within being that like creation,
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the fall, redemption, because the resources that I've seen have basically said, no, it's not possible
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for there to be anything outside of demons, angels, and human beings, and of course, animals and plants
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and things like that. So tell us a little bit more. So I'm going to explain where they kind of fall in
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line with all of this. Are you talking about whether or not there could actually be extraterrestrials
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outside of Earth? Like whether or not that's possible? Is that what you're referring to?
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Something in between like animal and human or something other than human, those kind of
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creatures that could exist. Like where does that fall in line with the creation order that we see
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in Genesis? Yeah. So a lot of this is really the subject of like what actually are aliens,
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what categories this fall to. A lot of Christians really differ on that. There are people who do
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actually. I was just talking this morning with somebody who's about one of our previous guests.
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I was actually chatting in the thread saying we're going to be on here and kind of recouping
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like what are the things to talk about? And there are those who do don't believe that's
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inconsistent to think that there could be someone that there could be extraterrestrials that live
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on another planet. Right. So what I think is the most what I'm really focused on is what
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is the actual evidence show with these sorts of appearances of an identified aerial phenomena?
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And what you're seeing is that they move in such a way to where all the known and a lot of physicists
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will talk about this too, where the way a lot of these spacecraft even move, to go from one galaxy
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to another in the amount of time that it would take, there's no, they would burn up. The elements
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aren't possible to sustain. If you've seen Top Gun Maverick, you've seen at the very beginning when Tom
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Cruise, we may have released an episode on Scientology by this time, but there's a moment
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where he has this craft and he accelerates it to Mach 10 and eventually that blows up. Right. So
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you look at the most, one of the most evolved space like craft at that time made by humans,
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it disintegrates. And so what you end up seeing is that there's not, there's elements that just
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don't add up with the ability for it to, for aliens to be going to have another civilization,
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another planet. That's, that's my, that's my take on it. There's other Christians who may disagree
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with that. And so what I think when it comes to creation and how that fits in, I think it would
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fit into the heavenly hosts, fallen angels. And I think one of the main reasons is, is that whenever
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you start going down this rabbit trail, you look at any, almost anyone who is a person that's into
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UFOs and aliens, that the rabbit trail almost always goes down to alien contact, finding out
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about who we really are as people and what, what the form of spirituality is. And so when you look at
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a lot of these documented cases of actual alien contact, the information that they're getting,
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they're getting, when you look at the stuff like ancient aliens and a lot of these ideas of ancient
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civilizations, it's not about some sort of evolved technology or materials or, or like,
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how can we actually take this to improve this alien technology we can take to improve our everyday
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lives? It's always questions on spirituality. It's almost immediately cut to the chase. Who is Jesus?
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Was Jesus really the son of God? And so it really, it's under what happens is that the underlying
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worldviews of Christianity and also of Jesus begin to be immediately questioned. So I mean, that would
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be it a red flag when it comes to the UFO conversation, that there's something about this
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that is insatiably, uh, and unequivocally connected to, uh, what, uh, God says about the world because
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they, when he cut, when alien contact happens, there's a worldview that's advocated that's completely
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antithetical, uh, to the Christian worldview specifically, uh, in regards to, uh, the occultic
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Yeah. Just to echo on that, we just have to be careful, uh, in terms of the way that
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we're viewing information that we're receiving. So what we got to understand is what we have
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video of is also extremely blurry, right? We have no high def images. Maybe there are some
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from the government that we haven't had, haven't seen yet, but a lot of what we think we know
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about what we are seeing are things that we're extrapolating from videos and information that
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we don't really have fully. It's like, we're looking through a lens kind of dimly, but what
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we do have is God's word to guide us with what we should be knowing. And I see nothing in scripture
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that tells me other than human beings being the pinnacle of God's creation, that there's
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some other type of highly advanced, highly evolved life form out there that is coming, uh, to earth
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and earth specifically for some reason. That's just things that we extrapolate from our own human
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imagination, things that we want to believe because there's two possibilities, right? When
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we hear and see UAPs, there's another life form out there from another advanced civilization that
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maybe for somehow through billions of years of unguided processes of evolution has a society
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that has now, for some reason, have purpose and meaning that is coming over here. It's like
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the Star Trek thing, right? Like if that's true, I'd say if that is true, then what's going
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on and what we're told in the Bible is in conflict with that. Uh, and I, and that it's hard for
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me to be able to grasp something of that nature when I think the Bible speaks very clearly on
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the creation account and the things that we need to know. And like Jerry is saying, uh,
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the way you get in contact with these beings is through things that the Bible says is an abomination
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in Deuteronomy 18, sorcery, uh, transcendental meditation, trying to use specific processes to
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contact interdimensional life forms, to gain knowledge. And God says, do not do that.
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Okay. What do y'all think about the Nephilim in Genesis 6?
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Oh boy. Because I, okay. My last guest, they talked about this and, you know, their support
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for the idea that, you know, this is basically what aliens are. So I'm just, I honestly, I hadn't
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even heard that before. So sorry if this is a curve ball, but I'm sure that y'all have good
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And you want to tackle that one? Cause you did a whole, uh, statement on the book of Enoch
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Yeah. Um, I haven't done as much research. There's different differing beliefs on what the
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Nephilim are. I mean, we can read it now in Genesis 6. I'll pull it up. So I have it right
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here. So it says, now it happened when men began to multiply on the face of the land and
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daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were good
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in appearance and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. Then Yahweh said, my spirit
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shall not strive with man forever because he is indeed flesh. Nevertheless, his day shall
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be 120 years. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days. And also afterward, when the sons
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of God came into the daughters of men and they were born children to them, these were
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the mighty men who were of old men of renown. Then Yahweh saw that the evil of man was great
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on the earth and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart is only evil continually. And then
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we understand from there that God, uh, wipes out the earth with the great flood. So the assumptions
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there is that the sons of God could be fallen angels that procreated with humans, uh, and created
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giant offspring called the Nephilim. Uh, a lot of that also comes from, uh, sources like the book
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of Enoch as well. That goes into a lot more detail of this account. Again, we don't really have many
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places in the Bible that talk about the Nephilim. Uh, this is one of them. Uh, there's other thoughts
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that the sons of God were a lineage of people that actually loved God and they fell away and they
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mated with the daughters of men in that term. And it created men of renown, but you know,
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the position itself is hard for me at this point to state that for some reason, uh, angels fell from
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heaven and could mate with humans, but now they can't. Yeah. Why not now? Why isn't that happening
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today? Well, some people would say that, okay, so some people would say that it is. Some people would
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say that these hybrid type people still exist today and that they have a lot of power. Now
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there's a lot of steps that you have to take to get there, obviously, but I mean, there are people
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who believe that these, we can't see them or recognize them necessarily as hybrids, but there
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are professing Christians, you know, who actually believe that they do still exist today.
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Yeah. I think it's important, uh, as Christians for us to think, uh, critically in such a way to where
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we have one little section of the Bible and it's hard to extract so many conclusions from this one
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thing, right? We will know when we die for sure. In certainty. Uh, I think that will be revealed to
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us, but I think Jerry has a really good, uh, description of how really grand conspiracies,
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the more grander they are, the more difficult it is for it to pull off. Cause there's so many
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moving parts. Jerry, can you kind of describe, described it before? Yeah. Well, a couple different
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levels. I'll say this when it comes to Genesis six, my, my take, when it comes to biblical
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interpretation, like, and dealing with these things is that if you're viewing something of
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anywhere in the Bible, that your approach should want you to check out other areas of the Bible.
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And there's still areas outside the Bible that would make sense. Okay. This makes sense then of
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the outside worlds that they go on in the first century. My main issue is with a lot of people who do
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go into Genesis six, which is obviously scripture and also the book of Jude, which sort of mentions
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the book of Enoch in passing the people, most of the time who get into those topics, they tend to stay
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in Genesis six. They tend to stay there. And the longer you stay there, the stranger it gets.
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And then you start having to reinterpret everything and part of just two passages of the Bible. So I think
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that's an area where I sometimes have a lot of caution when it comes to how someone approaches
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the issue. I mean, Genesis six is there. It does talk about giants. There are some very interesting
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aspects of history, especially when you look into the Bigfoot, uh, counter to Bigfoot, which is a
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whole nother conversation. But usually when it comes to conspiracies, and this is also has to do
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with UFOs is that there is a principle called Occam's razor, which basically states that the simplest
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solution is highly, the most probable answer because the more elaborate you make conspiracies,
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the higher probability there is for error. Because yeah, while it is human nature for people to
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conspire in secret, that shouldn't surprise us when that happens. And the book of John, it says,
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no one comes to the light, uh, less their deeds be exposed. People do conspire in secret, but there's
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also that, that acquisition for power does not like to be shared. So not only do you have people
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collaborating, you always have someone looking to take the other person out. The law, the more
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players you put into a conspiracy, the more complex it gets. And what makes the UFO conversation very
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interesting is that you have spacecraft, not just in the 1950s, but you see a lot of even paintings
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from like around the Renaissance of some of like objects like that are in the sky. Um, you, a lot of
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times even when we've made posts, for example, of recent news headlines about, uh, you know,
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there's some sort of, uh, alien revelation or people mistook a Chinese spy weather balloon as a
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UFO. Most people will say, well, this is just the Biden administration doing a wag the dog tactic,
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right? Uh, they're trying to distract from, you know, whatever, whatever, you know, nefarious things
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that they're doing, sending another a hundred billion dollars to Ukraine or what have you.
00:23:37.940
But the reality is, is that this issue of these unidentified aerial phenomena, this goes back
00:23:43.960
decades through multiple, uh, administrations, both, uh, Republicans and Democrats. You have
00:23:50.080
somebody like, uh, Senator Harry Reed. Uh, he passed away, uh, not too long ago, but he was very,
00:23:56.200
and he was actually LDS, which is the whole, uh, very interesting to kind of take that into account.
00:24:00.740
But he had a huge interest in, uh, the government relations in regards to being transparent about
00:24:06.340
UFO disclosures. And he's somebody who was a prominent Democrat. And then you have somebody
00:24:10.660
like Marco Rubio, who is a very prominent Republican. He was a presidential candidate
00:24:15.220
during the 2016 elections. He's been one of the most outspoken people when it comes to,
00:24:20.620
uh, pushing for government transparency, when it comes to UFO revelations. And then you have,
00:24:24.900
like I said, the, the account, uh, in Brazil, uh, with this event in 1996. And this is another area
00:24:32.280
too, uh, when it comes to, uh, the nature of aliens. And I might be jumping forward and maybe
00:24:37.380
answering some of your questions here too, Allie. A lot of people will ask, well, what are aliens?
00:24:41.780
Are they, are aliens just demons? And usually people tend to swing one way or the other,
00:24:46.640
really depending on their worldview. So you have somebody, and this is somebody who is,
00:24:50.740
he's not on the board anymore, but he's somebody who's been very outspoken when it comes to,
00:24:55.060
uh, the issues of, uh, UFOs and unidentified aerial phenomena. Someone named, uh,
00:25:00.620
Louie Elizondo. And he's somebody who I believe he's, uh, atheist. He's not a religious person.
00:25:07.240
So he would view UFOs through strictly naturalistic materialism. So the only concern he has when it
00:25:14.120
comes to this unidentified, unidentified aerial phenomena is national security. He doesn't really
00:25:18.160
have concerns about the spiritual implications. However, when you look at where UFOs end up,
00:25:25.380
usually people will swing the exact opposite way, which would be, oh, UFOs are just
00:25:30.620
demons. Where in reality, I think the most level-headed approach, and you can definitely,
00:25:34.700
you know, we can definitely unravel this, is that I believe they are interdimensional. And I think
00:25:39.560
the best way to view this honestly is through the lens of the incarnation where, you know, Christ was
00:25:44.980
fully God, fully man. There is this, there's no duality between them. And in the same way how,
00:25:51.580
uh, when Moses did, uh, did miracles in Egypt, how he turned the stat, how this, how, uh,
00:25:58.440
he turned the rod into a snake. Pharaoh's magicians were able to emulate that and do the exact same
00:26:04.480
thing. So I believe that there are these cat, these creatures do fall into the category of
00:26:10.760
fallen angels. And in many ways they can sort of articulate a counterfeit version, a counterfeit
00:26:16.380
version of the incarnation. So for example, when you look at this encounter in 1996 in Virginia,
00:26:23.040
Brazil, you have multiple witnesses who saw some sort of spacecraft land with some sort of material
00:26:29.960
that you could fold down and it would automatically go back into its original form. It was some sort of
00:26:36.220
very light base metal that they couldn't articulate. You had people that had encounters with these
00:26:41.380
aliens. You had somebody who was a young soldier when the Brazilian government got involved to cover
00:26:45.680
this up, who attested to handle one of these creatures. And they, and there's eyewitnesses say
00:26:50.680
something smelled like sulfur. And then one of the soldiers ended up passing away and dying in a very
00:26:57.760
short amount of time because of whatever he handled ended up, it was, it was consequential to ending his
00:27:02.860
life. And so you really see, uh, when it comes to conspiracy, something where it's not something you can
00:27:08.060
just sort of wipe away the broad brush. There is something really going on, um, with these sorts of
00:27:14.400
encounters that we can't ignore. So that would be my, uh, short and long tailed answer.
00:27:20.680
I'm wondering like, why are these encounters so much like Bigfoot or like the Loch Ness monster
00:27:36.820
where they're so slippery and like, why haven't we seen very clear depictions of this? I mean,
00:27:43.060
I know, I guess they're rare, but it does kind of strike me as similar to stories that we've heard
00:27:48.220
about these, you know, these other, uh, creatures. Like, why don't we have further evidence then if,
00:27:55.740
if they exist and so many people are talking about them?
00:28:00.300
Yeah. I mean, if, if, if indeed these things are fallen, uh, angels and they are there to deceive
00:28:07.640
people, I don't see why there would be, uh, a certain amount of evidence given for them to cause
00:28:14.320
people to want to repent. You know, uh, I think it's always going to be one of those situations
00:28:18.580
where it's that fine line between what we can see and what we can't see. Uh, like there's even,
00:28:24.660
there's even that story in the Bible. I forget which prophet it is, but there's a man that was
00:28:27.820
scared and the prophet says, don't be scared. Look, there's a host of angels around us. And then
00:28:31.760
the eyes are opened of the man and he sees the heavenly realm essentially where there's these angels
00:28:36.240
and these demons. And there's essentially like a battle that is actually going to be happening,
00:28:41.000
but they're protected right there by the heavenly host of God. So I think that these things are
00:28:45.100
around us. It's just something that we're not able to see all of the time. Uh, for example,
00:28:49.740
when Steven is being martyred, it states that he looked up and he saw Jesus at the right hand of
00:28:55.560
God standing, standing where standing in heaven. Uh, there's just something that's hard for us to
00:29:02.000
grasp as humans living in this material reality that heaven in this realm is not necessarily something
00:29:08.900
that is far off. It's just not where we are. If that makes sense. And the blurring of the lines
00:29:14.840
between the realms, like with fallen angels and taking on forms, we have precedent of that in
00:29:20.500
scripture. We see that actually happening. Uh, there's theophanies, right? Where I would say
00:29:25.440
the pre-incarnate Christ takes on flesh and even appears to Abraham. I'd say he is the one who also
00:29:29.940
appeared to Gideon in whom Gideon gave a sacrifice to, but also in Ezekiel, we see the forms of angels and
00:29:35.640
heavenly beings that are descriptive, very descriptive to like modern UAPs and UFOs that
00:29:40.240
are taking forms as molten glowing balls of fire that dash to and fro like lightning things that we
00:29:46.680
are seeing even to this day. But in terms of deception, that's what the enemy looks to do.
00:29:53.080
I mean, there's a reason why Paul in Titus actually, one of his pastoral epistles states this,
00:29:57.400
he says, therefore rebuke them sharply that they may be sound in the faith, not devoting themselves to
00:30:01.200
Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth. When we start dabbling
00:30:05.580
in the forms of, well, who exactly are the Nephilim? And then going to the book of Enoch,
00:30:09.760
I think that Paul is referring to something like the book of Enoch here, Jewish myths that are
00:30:14.160
turning people away from the truth. Uh, we have the ability to fall into a hole and stay there,
00:30:19.620
uh, and not come out. And we shouldn't have that, uh, mindset. We don't have just Genesis six. We have
00:30:25.300
the whole, uh, council of God here to try to keep our relationship with God in check. And it's
00:30:30.320
important to understand that. So when we're looking at, Oh, go ahead. You can,
00:30:34.240
you can add to that if you want to Jeremiah. Um, no, I'll let you go ahead.
00:30:37.980
Well, I was just going to ask, like, we talked about the U S government and these different kinds
00:30:41.740
of encounters and if they really are like fallen angels, do you think then, like, if you're looking
00:30:47.580
at something like area 51, that the government knows something that it's not telling us, or is
00:30:53.960
the government being what it is? Like, do they even know? Like, do they even have any real idea?
00:30:59.880
Maybe they're not covering anything up. Cause it's hard for me to understand how they would even
00:31:03.540
discern anything that has spiritual implications. I don't know. Like, what do you think is going on
00:31:09.080
with government possible coverup and things like that? Yeah, that's a, that's a good question. In
00:31:14.780
fact, uh, one of the stories, you know, we're talking about like Tom DeLonge and to the stars
00:31:18.340
Academy and his involvement with being helped try. He thinks that, you know, he wants to help the
00:31:22.840
government be more transparent through transparent through a lot of the films he wants to release and
00:31:28.040
debut. In fact, that was, that's what he was doing. He, I think he took around a seven year
00:31:32.720
break from Blink-182, uh, because he wanted to work directly on these projects with the government,
00:31:37.920
uh, to help them do these disclosures. So one of the reasons why he just rejoined with a band,
00:31:42.100
why they did the tour and did the new album, because he's pretty much done with that phase
00:31:45.440
and he's kind of back into the limelight of both being a musician, but I think he's also using,
00:31:50.340
utilizing, you know, him being, uh, back with Blink as a way to really talk about his belief in
00:31:55.940
aliens. You see him really kind of sort of proselytizing in the sense, his belief about
00:31:59.520
UFOs a lot of times from the stage, which, uh, happens a lot of times, but really one of the
00:32:04.460
other stories too was, uh, somebody by the name of Bob Lazar, uh, there, he was somebody who was,
00:32:09.760
I believe it's an engineer who worked in Area 51 and he is very adamant and he's had the same
00:32:15.500
testimony for decades that he saw, uh, he was designated to actually work on and, and analyze
00:32:22.180
this alien spacecraft that the government had captured. And there is this element that was
00:32:27.300
from, not from this earth called element one 15 and his, it's very fast. It's a very fascinating
00:32:32.180
story. Um, you could definitely get into it's another just component in the UFO conversation
00:32:37.060
when it comes to the relationship with the state, you know, this is something that has been
00:32:41.900
throughout multiple decades and multiple generations that have dealt with us. You know,
00:32:45.620
you think it's a totally different generation that dealt with Roswell than versus what we're dealing
00:32:49.660
with now. I think honestly, you know, the nature of government, the nature of state is that you,
00:32:55.700
they always want to be seen as the people who are competent, who know what they're doing in spite of
00:33:00.520
their incompetence, which is why they usually typically don't emit faults, even with all the
00:33:03.860
evidence right in front of them. I think they don't, for them to truly explain what this is, it,
00:33:12.460
they, in a sense have to explain their, uh, inability to be the ultimate arbiter of, uh, truth and
00:33:21.960
reality and to be the, for them to be the final measure of all things. I don't think the UFO
00:33:26.740
phenomena is something that they can truly articulate, uh, accurately and truthfully without giving up
00:33:32.240
their position of power. If that makes sense. Uh, Andrew, what'd you, what, how would you,
00:33:36.500
would you, how would you, how would you think about that? Are you, do you catch what I'm saying
00:33:39.000
here? Yeah. Yeah. Well, in, in, I'm thinking in terms of like area 51, uh, government technology,
00:33:44.700
things that we don't know. I mean, we have historical precedents with MK ultra that there's
00:33:49.360
things going on that we're not told about, uh, the government testing things on their people.
00:33:53.720
Uh, wait, just, you gotta pause. You just gotta tell someone, you just gotta tell people who may
00:33:58.000
not know really quickly what MK ultra is. Yeah. Okay. So MK ultra was a mind control experiment that was
00:34:06.300
done by the government. They actually, uh, were charged in a series of hearings. I forget what the
00:34:11.260
hearings are called. We did a few episodes on it back when we actually did it with a crossover with
00:34:16.360
sheologians talking about, uh, Charles Manson and MK ultra and the ties that are there through the book
00:34:21.000
chaos that was written. I forgot the guy who wrote it. Jerry could clarify Tom O'Neill. Yeah. Jerry's got such
00:34:25.960
a good memory. I love him so much. Okay. So MK ultra essentially was testing to develop a certain
00:34:32.160
type of cocktail that could be used in war to create mind controlled, uh, people, uh, essentially. And what
00:34:39.940
was going on is that they were luring people into these bunk houses and giving them high qualities of
00:34:46.780
drugs that would, uh, make their minds get a little bit loose. And they would, the government would then
00:34:53.540
give people like prostitutes to sleep with these men and then we'd start giving up information. Oh, that's what
00:34:58.660
they're called. They're trying to invent something called the Manchurian candidate. And that was the
00:35:02.180
person that was like essentially a mind controlled, uh, United States operative. But the point is, is
00:35:07.580
that the United States was doing this to our own citizens without anyone knowing they were luring
00:35:11.860
people back into these bunk houses. A lot of it was done in California where the, the FBI would have
00:35:17.060
like a, like a hole in the wall. You know what I mean? And they'd be watching through a hole in the
00:35:20.560
wall. And these people were getting experimented on without even knowing that actually happened.
00:35:26.500
Yes, this is real. It's called the church committee, by the way, the, uh, this is 1975.
00:35:32.940
Um, right. When they were, you know, actually questioning the CIA, this is real. Like the CIA
00:35:38.260
actually experimented on Americans, you know, basically blackmailed them in a lot of cases,
00:35:45.860
the Manchurian candidate that they could totally control. All of that is real. And it goes back
00:35:50.700
a long time. And there's probably, I mean, there has to be more that we don't know about. So anyway,
00:35:54.960
I know I kind of derailed us a little bit, but I just, yeah. So in terms of technology,
00:36:00.060
I mean, in 1964, the first time it was flown, uh, at least for us to know publicly was in
00:36:05.700
the SR 71, which can fly at speeds of Mach three plus at 85,000 feet. No one knew this type of
00:36:12.280
technology even existed then. Imagine seeing something like that, just boom, going past you
00:36:16.780
in the sky when you're even working in the United States government. I mean, the way that our military
00:36:20.200
works is compartmentalization. You know, if you don't have the classified, uh, confidentiality
00:36:25.700
layers to get to the top, you're not going to know what's going on. So the things that we're
00:36:29.040
going to see, if we don't know, we're going to extrapolate things. So with area 51, do I think that
00:36:36.700
they have extraterrestrial technology? I don't think they have extraterrestrial technology. I think
00:36:42.700
the human imagination is such a awesome and amazing gift that God has given us, but we use it to
00:36:47.920
search after other gods in order to think that we're not going to face judgment one day.
00:36:51.960
And I think the ideas of extraterrestrial life, give people, uh, a reason to not to deny the God
00:36:58.380
of the Bible and think that they won't face judgment when I, but the wages of sin is death and we will
00:37:02.940
all have to get an account for our sins. There's a reason why we die. Uh, the universe is not a place
00:37:08.700
that is essentially what it was before the fall. I think the whole world and the whole universe,
00:37:14.620
uh, was impacted by the sin of man, but one day it will be renewed by the power and blood of Jesus
00:37:20.960
Christ through the power of the gospel. Like first Corinthians 15 states that when Jesus Christ
00:37:24.900
returns, he has the keys of the kingdom over the father and death is destroyed once for all. Like
00:37:29.780
we've seen the book of revelation as well, cast into the lake of fire with the devil. I think the
00:37:33.800
whole universe will be renewed, uh, at that point. I think that's the implications and the weight of
00:37:38.000
our sin to, to believe something else denies, uh, the fact that we are so culpable that as image of
00:37:44.700
God bearers, we actually shed a broken image to God, not just to the world, but to the rest of the
00:37:49.300
universe. It's cosmic treason as, uh, R.C. Sproul states. Yeah. Yeah. And so one thing I also want to
00:37:54.680
say too, is that of course we would take, honestly, at this point, I don't get surprised by anything the
00:37:59.440
government does from any, honestly, any administration. It's like, how do you know, like, how do you know when a
00:38:03.680
politician is lying and pretty much my standards when they're flapping their gums? Like that's,
00:38:07.960
that's just, it's what I expect and nothing really surprises me anymore. So honestly, any sort of
00:38:12.880
official government account of what UFOs and aliens are, I'm going to probably take with a grain of
00:38:16.640
salt. There's even people, if you look at the whole Bob Lazar story who might even say that he was a
00:38:21.600
disinformation agent or maybe he was fed, uh, false information or maybe tricked into thinking that he
00:38:27.440
saw a spacecraft or maybe this, he didn't really see this element, even though he really holds to his
00:38:31.640
story and really genuinely believes this. I think it's really, you look at the fruit, like, where
00:38:37.400
is the, where does all of this go? Right? So you have, you think about the Steven Spielberg movie,
00:38:42.380
Close Encounters of the Third Kind. I want to just quickly define terms. I actually pulled this up
00:38:46.280
just so people will know the different types of encounters. And this is the collaborative evidence
00:38:50.740
across multiple generations, across multiple governments, across, you know, every, every different
00:38:56.100
lines. We're not just talking about the current Biden information, uh, Biden administration
00:38:59.980
trying to cover up a Chinese, uh, spy balloon, but really this is the term. So when a person sees
00:39:05.040
a UFO within 150 meters, that's considered an encounter of the first kind. And then when there's
00:39:10.720
an encounter with a UFO in the sky or on the ground and leaves evidence behind such as scorched marks on
00:39:16.660
the ground or, or incidents, that's of a second kind. And then when there's a counter and when an
00:39:22.740
encounter is with visible occupants inside the UFO, it's of a third kind. The fourth kind involves a
00:39:29.540
person being taken and experimented on inside of an alien craft. The fifth kind involves direct,
00:39:36.060
uh, communication between aliens and humans. That's a, it's called a CE-5, uh, Close Encounters
00:39:41.420
of the Fifth Kind. So initially, the initial appearances are tentatively physical in nature.
00:39:48.020
And because there are, there's, so example, when you look at Commander David Fraser had this
00:39:51.920
tic-tac encounter when he was a pilot and saw this sort of spacecraft, it was really a heat sensor.
00:39:57.280
He wasn't going out there to find a UFO. He just saw this. And in fact, if you listen to his
00:40:02.740
interview on the Joe Rogan experience, it's super fascinating. But eventually when you go further
00:40:07.360
down the rabbit hole, you look at the fruit, uh, and there might even be people in your audience,
00:40:11.800
Allie, maybe who had a background, uh, in the new age. A lot of them will attest that they had some
00:40:17.380
sort of encounter that was in Close Encounters specifically of the fourth and fifth kind where
00:40:22.060
they believed they were abducted and were being experimented on. Uh, those, that came about
00:40:27.520
directly by their involvement, uh, in the occult. And do you know what actually stopped their
00:40:32.600
encounter of being, for example, experimented on in this alien spacecraft? They didn't know what to
00:40:38.400
do, and so they're just trying to cry out. They're not even Christians. They call out to the name of
00:40:42.360
Jesus. Guess what happens? And this is independently verified. There's scores of people who have made,
00:40:47.680
who have given testimonies about this, the torturing and the abduction stops. And a lot
00:40:53.260
of times that initial experience is the catalyst for them to actually come to Christ. And then what
00:40:59.240
you end up having are called CE5 disclosures. And this is the case with everyone. So in Tom DeLonge,
00:41:04.420
when he talks about his whole progress of going down the UFO rabbit trail, he talks about
00:41:07.760
being out in the desert with a group of people and having, uh, doing, going through a process to do a
00:41:14.220
CE5 disclosure, then waking up at three o'clock in the morning in contact with little green men.
00:41:19.180
He's more than likely was working with someone by the name of Dr. Steven Greer,
00:41:23.280
who, if you've watched his documentary, he kind of goes into the initial aspects of government
00:41:27.920
coverup. But then the second part of it, it looks like some sort of ancient druid ritual from like
00:41:34.120
ancient times in some sort of old Viking movie where they're trying to do an occultic seance.
00:41:38.820
And then you start seeing these lights and phenomena in the sky. So a lot of your audience,
00:41:43.860
Sally might be familiar with, uh, Demi Lovato. Uh, she has been very much making the rounds the
00:41:49.220
last couple of years that she is almost sort of a pioneer and catalyst with this whole, uh,
00:41:53.980
pronoun craziness that we're all dealing with, whether you're binary and non-binary. Well,
00:41:59.280
her catalyst to get into that was her, uh, interactions with Dr. Steven Greer. She got in
00:42:05.700
contact with him and with her, you know, she is somebody who's made in the image of God who wants
00:42:09.360
to understand who she is. And she had this really, I believe a heart, uh, vacuum that only Jesus can
00:42:14.980
fill. She went to find her meaning and truth behind these CE5 disclosures. And she shared this on her
00:42:20.960
own social media where she's out with Dr. Steven Greer doing these occultic rituals and seances
00:42:25.920
and seeing this phenomena in the sky as a direct result of these CE5 disclosures. And she actually
00:42:31.960
even accredits a lot of her, um, you know, her different gender identities, uh, to these initial
00:42:38.720
CE5 disclosures, which goes back to what this really is, what ancient occultism really is, is ancient
00:42:44.860
paganism, which Paul talks about in Romans chapter one. And what happens when you engage in paganism,
00:42:51.200
people worship the creation rather than the creator. And immediately, immediately there's a swapping
00:42:56.720
between the roles of masculine and feminine. So what you actually see with Demi Lovato is that she,
00:43:02.640
what is happening with all of her issues of the gender identity and, and just her pronouns and binary,
00:43:07.600
non-binary, that's all a by-product of her initial pursuit to find her identity in these close encounters
00:43:14.880
of the fifth kind with Dr. Steven Greer. Um, so that's why as, as Christians, you know, this is something
00:43:20.720
that we should be afraid of. The idea, in all honesty, there's a friend of mine who just, uh,
00:43:26.000
lives here in Phoenix, sent me a message and they actually, there's something that showed up,
00:43:30.600
uh, something in a phenomena in the sky that is completely, uh, similar to a lot of other
00:43:36.700
testimony of seeing some sort of unidentified aerial phenomena. So as a Christian, some people
00:43:41.260
might see it like, Oh, that's crazy. Well, I saw it and didn't shake me like, Oh, I'm not surprised
00:43:47.300
one bit. I, so I think honestly, this is this whole topic is something that shouldn't be, I mean,
00:43:53.080
you have to work through it. Ultimately it shouldn't be taboo because everything, all the creation,
00:43:57.880
both invisible and invisible, they're created by Christ and for Christ. So I, we, as Christians,
00:44:03.400
we should have confidence that this whole discussion of aliens, demons, unidentified aerial phenomena,
00:44:10.560
this is, this exists in the universe that Christ is upholding by the word of his powers. So that's
00:44:15.920
why this is something as Christians, we can't ignore. Um, but something we want to face head on.
00:44:23.080
And that actually is a perfect segue into my last question. And Andrew, I'll just let you
00:44:37.740
answer it since Jeremiah kind of just did, but I was going to ask like, why does this matter for
00:44:42.520
the Christian? Because I can see a lot of people listening to this and be like, well, that's just,
00:44:46.860
it's just too much for me. It's kind of scary. It's kind of overwhelming, anxiety inducing. I don't
00:44:50.840
really want to think about this. Why do Christians, why should Christians really care about this?
00:44:55.840
Why should this be a part of our theology and worldview that we should have a reasonable answer
00:45:00.540
for? Absolutely. Because first Peter three 15 says, separate Christ as Lord is your heart and
00:45:05.960
always be ready to have a reasonable defense for the hope that is within you. And this is one of the
00:45:09.900
issues that we are being faced with today. We need to be able to have a defense, a reasonable
00:45:14.200
defense for what we are seeing with this phenomenon. And we need to be able to stand on God's
00:45:19.420
word and first have the Lord separated in our heart. Like Paul says to pray that our speech be
00:45:24.060
seasoned like salt so we can know how to answer any person in any situation. And we need to be deep
00:45:28.060
in the word of God in order to have that conversation with people because too many times
00:45:32.160
that large Christians shrink back from popular culture and we end up letting the secular world
00:45:36.600
interpret the evidences through their own presuppositions and come up with conclusions that
00:45:40.960
are antithetical to worldview. So we need to be well-educated. We need to be in God's word and we need to be
00:45:46.740
speaking out in the public sphere. That's why God commands us to. Yeah, it's it's kind of like when
00:45:51.280
the government doesn't tell you the whole truth or doesn't tell you when something is going on or
00:45:54.860
the media is constantly lying to you. It's no surprise that conspiracy theories crop up or you get these
00:46:00.580
false prophets saying, well, this is what's going to happen. This is what COVID-19 really is. And in
00:46:05.380
September, I foresaw all these things happening. Of course, people are seeking truth. They're seeking
00:46:10.760
clarity. People want to know what is really going on behind the scenes, what's being told. And so I
00:46:16.660
think that's a really good point that Christians need to have an answer for it. We need to have a
00:46:21.020
solid answer for it. And not to say that we have all the answers. I don't think that we do. I
00:46:25.980
certainly don't have all the answers and what is going on and all the different scenarios and news
00:46:31.020
stories where they claim that aliens have been encountered. But I think the simple point that both
00:46:36.920
have you made about Christ's authority, that he has the authority over all of it, that everything
00:46:43.180
has been made for him and by him. And I just immediately thought of Matthew 28, 18, the Great
00:46:49.360
Commission. And Jesus came and said to them, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given
00:46:54.140
to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and
00:46:58.700
the Son and of the Holy Spirit. So having both the right and the responsibility because of Jesus's
00:47:04.600
authority to make disciples. I think that is also a comfort in all of this. There's a lot of mystery
00:47:11.480
in the world. There's a lot of confusion, but we don't have to wonder. Isn't that the greatest thing?
00:47:16.540
We don't have to wonder who is in charge. Our kids, when something happens, they get lost in a
00:47:21.540
water park or something like that. They want to know where their parent is. They might not have all of
00:47:25.920
the answers about where they are, where they're going, or what's going on around them. As long as they
00:47:30.320
can find mom and dad, they feel safe. And that just gives me a lot of comfort, what both of you said,
00:47:36.220
that Christ is Lord. He is the authority over all of this. I don't have to have all the answers,
00:47:40.520
but I do need to be as prepared as possible to give a reasonable and Christ-filled response.
00:47:45.800
Absolutely. And if anyone wants to know about any of the further content that we have,
00:47:49.700
we've done multiple episodes on our podcast regarding the UFO and alien phenomenon question.
00:47:54.840
And in fact, by the time you drop this episode, we're going to have a little sort of mini-series
00:48:00.040
called Alien Revelations. It's going to be season one. It's the first time we've ever done something
00:48:04.500
like this, where we have eight to nine episodes. And it's actually narrated by our friend,
00:48:08.900
Colin Simul. Just real quick, the Cliff Notes story is that he messaged me right when Colt
00:48:14.080
started a couple of years ago. And we talked on the phone and he said, you have got to pay attention
00:48:19.400
to what's happening with Tom DeLonge and all these people who are like, you're going to see,
00:48:23.800
government, like the whole UFO conversation showing up in the news on a regular basis.
00:48:28.740
And people are going to be starting to bring into question spirituality. We have to embrace this as
00:48:32.560
Christians. And I said, okay, well, let's talk about it. Let's, let's figure it out. And sure
00:48:37.080
enough, a lot of what he initially talked to me about has come to fruition. And in that are a lot
00:48:43.160
of prominent figures like Joe Rogan and Russell Brand and Lex Friedman now bringing into worldview
00:48:48.820
issues as far as like, what is this phenomenon? What does this say about ourselves? What is the
00:48:53.300
nature of truth? So as Christians, we know that neutrality is a myth and we need to bring the
00:48:57.340
light and the hope of the gospel even into this conversation. So by the time you've actually
00:49:00.920
dropped this series, we're actually going to have a series available like on our podcast portfolio
00:49:04.980
called Alien Revelations is around eight to nine episodes that goes into the whole history,
00:49:09.760
even going back to the Renaissance era of like, where, how does this fit in with this
00:49:15.300
unidentified area of phenomena? How does it fit in within a Christian worldview? So again,
00:49:18.660
just a reiterate, this is something that as Christians, we shouldn't find taboo. It's an
00:49:24.080
area that honestly, Christians have not tackled as good as we can. I mean, if you look back to the
00:49:28.680
1970s, the only prominent figure I'm familiar with, who was even addressing flying saucers,
00:49:35.200
which they referred to a lot as that time was the late Dr. Walter Martin of who wrote Kingdom of
00:49:40.400
the Occult and Kingdom of the Occult. He's the only person I can really find from that area who
00:49:44.700
publicly lectured about. What do we do with these types of encounters? What does this say about the
00:49:49.980
nature of truth? What does this say about the Bible? And so it's something that whether it's
00:49:53.760
this or any other topic, no matter how taboo or fringe it is, we need to be able to jump it
00:49:57.720
head on. When Paul talks about tearing down every idea which is set aside against the knowledge of
00:50:02.400
God, he doesn't pick and choose. He talks, he says every. So I think definitely this whole
00:50:07.920
discussion definitely falls into that category. Yeah. Wow. This is so fascinating. I really do
00:50:12.840
encourage people to check out y'all's resources on it. Once again, something that we could talk about
00:50:16.780
for a lot longer. Thank you guys so much for coming on and talking about this fun and
00:50:21.520
kind of controversial subject. Absolutely, Allie. Always a pleasure.