Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 900 ｜ How to Reach Gen Z with the Gospel ｜ Guest： Dr. Sean McDowell (Part One)

00:00:00.180 Today, we are talking to Dr. Sean McDowell. He is an author as well as a professor of Christian

00:00:06.320 apologetics at Biola University. And this is the first part of a two-part series. In this first

00:00:12.220 conversation, we will be talking about how to approach apologetics issues with young people.

00:00:18.580 He deals with this every day and the questions that they have, is Christianity good? How do we

00:00:23.720 deal with matters of identity? How much do feelings matter versus truth? How do we

00:00:30.180 approach these very sensitive topics like LGBTQ issues? He is going to prepare us today for those

00:00:36.100 conversations that we have with the next generation in this first part of this two-part series. This

00:00:43.420 episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to goodranchers.com. Use code

00:00:47.940 Allie at checkout. That's goodranchers.com. Code Allie.

00:00:59.820 Dr. McDowell, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. For those who maybe haven't read your

00:01:05.400 many, many books or seen your videos and all the awesome content that you put out, could you just

00:01:10.560 tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do? Yeah, honored to be here with you. I've been

00:01:15.900 following your stuff for a while, so it's great to connect. I teach full-time at Biola University

00:01:21.120 Christian School in Southern California, and I'm in the Department of Apologetics. And we can maybe

00:01:27.440 get into that, but basically my job and my task is to defend the Christian faith as best that I can.

00:01:35.060 So I'm an author. I'm a speaker. I have a YouTube channel like you do. I basically speak. I am a

00:01:41.520 communicator with a heart on defending the Christian faith and also trying to reach the

00:01:47.320 next generation. All right. So you're in an interesting spot for an apologist and someone

00:01:52.080 who teaches apologetics. You are, one, at a university, and two, you're at a Southern

00:01:58.080 California university. And so you're in a different position than a lot of people are, certainly people

00:02:04.260 in the Bible Belt, where you have most people around you are kind of familiar, or not you, but the

00:02:09.920 general you of the people who live in the South are familiar with Christianity, kind of even have a

00:02:15.820 Christian basis, a little bit of a Christian worldview. I have never lived in Southern California,

00:02:21.500 but I've been to Southern California many times. So I imagine the students that you are interacting

00:02:25.780 with and trying to equip, they face a lot of challenges in an area that is more hostile, I think,

00:02:33.600 it seems like, to Christian views, certainly on marriage and gender and sexuality and abortion.

00:02:39.920 Then say you would find maybe in Georgia or Alabama or Texas. So tell us a little bit about what that's

00:02:45.520 like. How do you navigate those fears? So up until about two or three years ago, whenever I would

00:02:51.800 travel and tell somebody I was from California, there was kind of a sense of like, wow, that's cool.

00:02:57.760 I wish I lived in California. Now, when I tell people, there's almost a sense of like pity and people

00:03:04.460 look at me like, why do you still live there? What's the matter with you? That has shifted.

00:03:09.640 You're right. There's unique challenges to being in California. Now I do live in Orange County. So

00:03:14.940 things are far more secular and liberal to the North in California and far more secular and liberal to the

00:03:21.320 South in San Diego. But there's a ton of churches and influence of kind of conservative theological and

00:03:27.560 political ideas in Orange County where I live. But bottom line, in some ways, it doesn't matter where a kid

00:03:32.900 lives anymore today because really the influence is coming through YouTube. It's coming through

00:03:37.660 TikTok. It's coming through Twitter, you name it. So the kids in Southern California really have the

00:03:45.860 same challenges. When I go and talk to young people in Oklahoma, I go talk to young people in Texas.

00:03:52.080 I think social media has really leveled the playing field. Now, the data does show that parents are the

00:03:58.540 most primary influencers of the next generation. But a lot of parents don't know how to capitalize

00:04:03.740 this and speak into their kids. And there's so many endless voices coming to this generation

00:04:09.620 that I think they're actually far more, and I mean, Christian young people, far more secular in the way

00:04:15.240 that they think than even biblical in the way that they think. How long have you been in the university

00:04:20.560 system? So I'm finishing up two decades of teaching high school. I taught high school 10 years full

00:04:27.880 time. And then I've been doing it part time for the past 10 years. And I'm also just finished up

00:04:32.920 actually turning my grades last week. I finished up 10 years at Biola University.

00:04:38.940 Wow. Okay. So has there been any kind of change for the better or for the worse that you've seen in

00:04:46.760 these young people coming up when it comes to their preparedness as Christians to kind of face the

00:04:52.040 different questions and challenges that people have for Christianity? That's an interesting way

00:04:57.780 to put it. I'm not sure that there's been a great change in the preparedness of this generation.

00:05:03.620 I think what's happening is the voices from the outside are encroaching more and more. And then when

00:05:10.160 young people aren't ready to defend their faith, it costs them more. So there's always been a 1.00

00:05:15.860 challenge. I mean, my dad was teaching Christians to defend the faith starting in the 60s, the 70s and

00:05:21.660 the 80s. We have never been great as a Christian community, knowing what we believe and why we 1.00

00:05:27.840 believe it. But broadly speaking, Christian beliefs, you might say, I know there's exceptions to this,

00:05:34.720 but if you told someone you're a Christian, people might not follow those beliefs, but you'd kind of get

00:05:39.560 a pat on the back like, good for you. But now with this generation, what happens is if you hold

00:05:46.020 Christian beliefs, and in particular, when it comes to issues of sexuality, you are bigoted, 0.99

00:05:51.660 you are hateful, you are homophobic, and you are intolerant. And many people will shame you. 0.99

00:05:58.260 So I don't know that it's more or less that we have a generation that's able to defend their faith.

00:06:03.320 We've never been great at this. But it's personal with their friends. It's everywhere on social

00:06:09.140 media. So you might say it costs this generation more than it has previous generations, if they

00:06:15.420 don't know what they believe, and why they believe it. What are some of the biggest questions that you

00:06:21.100 get when when you're talking to these students, and they come to you, they say, I just don't know how

00:06:25.900 to answer X. What is that typically? So this might be a helpful way to frame it. I think there's

00:06:33.300 timeless questions, and there's timely questions. So there's certain timeless questions every

00:06:40.120 generation is going to ask things like, why is there evil and suffering? Does God exist? Is there a

00:06:46.500 purpose to my life? These kind of questions people have always asked, and this generation in the right 0.77

00:06:51.720 setting and the right way is asking them to. But I also think there's certain timely questions that

00:06:57.960 this generation is wrestling with. And I'd put them in a few big categories. One is I would say 0.84

00:07:03.200 something about the exclusiveness of Christianity. I mean, some of the biggest, what you might say, 0.94

00:07:09.340 virtues that are pushed today on this generation are things like diversity and inclusiveness.

00:07:15.040 And Christianity, at the heart of it is Jesus, who claims to be the only way that can feel very

00:07:22.380 exclusive. So there's kind of questions on that level. There's questions about the goodness of

00:07:27.640 Christianity. I think some of the questions have shifted. For example, again, when my father was

00:07:31.920 debating on college campuses in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, there was kind of an assumption that there's such

00:07:37.640 a thing as truth. Truth mattered. We could discover it. Give me the evidence for it. Now, some of the

00:07:44.800 key questions are about the goodness of Christianity. It's not infrequent to hear many young people

00:07:50.760 think, you know what, even if it is true, I don't want to believe it or follow it if it's not good.

00:07:56.920 So there's questions about the uniqueness and exclusiveness of Christianity, questions about

00:08:00.960 the goodness of Christianity. There's a lot of questions about science and faith. And this could

00:08:06.000 be the age of the earth, but even more so, science still is a kind of authority, I think, within our

00:08:12.240 culture and this generation, even though things are shifting towards feelings in some way. But

00:08:16.920 there's a sense amongst many young people that's like, if I follow Christianity, do I have to give

00:08:22.560 up science? There's a lot of tension there. And then the last one, which in many ways is the elephant

00:08:27.940 in the room, are questions of LGBTQ and sexuality. If I open up for questions with this generation,

00:08:33.840 these are always the top five about sexuality, about gender, about marriage. That question is probably

00:08:40.380 some of the leading questions that I get. Yeah. And that last one about issues of identity

00:08:46.600 and sexuality, I would guess is kind of paired with the first one, or they kind of go hand in hand.

00:08:53.060 You mentioned that the values that are kind of, that we're told are paramount today are diversity

00:09:00.060 and inclusion. I would also say that empathy seems to be one. And that empathy is the best and the

00:09:08.160 biggest thing for which a person should strive. And that is kind of, it seems, linked with this

00:09:14.360 idea of needing to affirm and the name of empathy or some kind of newfangled definition of love

00:09:20.260 people's choices when it comes to so-called gender identity or so-called sexual orientation. So

00:09:25.680 tell me how you walk students through that. I mean, obviously, all students or all people

00:09:31.240 everywhere, no matter what part of the world or America you're in, you're dealing with those

00:09:36.380 questions, but especially where y'all are, where it's just, I don't know if it's necessarily more

00:09:42.200 common, seems to be more flagrant, kind of more in your face. So tell us how you walk students

00:09:47.820 through those issues. So the first thing I would say is I love that you brought up the idea of empathy

00:09:53.140 because sometimes adults and the older we get, we look at this new generation through a negative lens

00:09:59.000 and are critical. I ask parents, teachers, youth workers, pastors to describe this generation.

00:10:06.920 And some of the first words that come out are like entitled, coddled, disconnected. And then I'll ask

00:10:13.280 people, I'll say, okay, were the words that you used positive or negative? And then you'll see the

00:10:18.980 eyes opening up of the audience and they realize, wow, I have a really negative view of this generation.

00:10:23.420 And I'll say the way you view this generation is going to shape the way you relate to them.

00:10:30.780 So I do have concerns about our culture. I do have concerns about Gen Z, but to me, 1.00

00:10:36.280 it's an opportunity to minister to and relate to this younger generation. Now, how do I approach it?

00:10:43.140 One of the first things I do is I just want to listen to somebody. I mean, in the back of somebody's

00:10:48.100 mind so often is, if you're a Christian, you're bigoted, you're intolerant, you're hateful. 0.97

00:10:55.020 God doesn't like gays is the understanding. And I think one of the ways to start turning this 0.94

00:11:01.080 is to just be the kind of person that says, you know what? I love you. I care about you.

00:11:05.660 I want to hear out your story first. So if somebody comes out to me and that's happened many times,

00:11:13.040 or somebody wants to have a debate about these issues, I'll just take a step back and say,

00:11:16.760 tell me what you think. Tell me why you think that. Help me understand where you are coming from

00:11:22.300 and hear their story and make sure they understand that I care, that I'm a safe person,

00:11:27.120 not in the sense that I won't challenge ideas, but I'm not going to judge them.

00:11:30.520 And I'm up for conversation with them. So that's step number one is don't freak out.

00:11:35.880 Just ask questions. Enter into a relationship because I'd like to have an ongoing conversation

00:11:42.400 with this young person for a long time. And then the second thing I found I have to do is just

00:11:47.440 slightly deconstruct certain assumptions about what Jesus taught about sexuality and about why

00:11:54.740 the Bible has certain teachings that it has. So I found whether it's non-Christians or Christian kids,

00:12:01.280 they don't have a clue why the Bible teaches what it teaches. So I would help young people understand,

00:12:07.520 God's given us certain commandments, but these commandments are not to steal your fun, not to

00:12:12.300 oppress you. These commandments are actually to set you free. They're for your good and they're to help

00:12:19.100 you flourish as an individual. That's where I want to shift the conversation to if possible.

00:12:37.520 So we talk a lot on this podcast about what the Bible says about marriage, about sexuality, about

00:12:44.740 gender and things like that. But when you're talking in a one-on-one conversation, you said that

00:12:50.100 you've got students who tell you, look, I'm same-sex attracted or whatever. And they hear you say,

00:12:58.600 look, God says that he made us male and female, brought male and female together in the bonds of

00:13:03.860 marriage for your good. I imagine that that is really difficult for someone to hear. If your

00:13:11.180 feelings feel like your reality, they even feel like your identity. And to be told that how you feel

00:13:18.180 and what you think defines you is actually sin, I imagine that that's a difficult thing to hear

00:13:25.540 and it's difficult to understand. But why? Like, why would I have these feelings? Why does God say that

00:13:31.800 one thing is good and one thing is wrong when it comes to this? So how do you approach that from

00:13:36.020 a personal and relational level? Well, one of the main things I'm going to do is I'm going to ask a

00:13:42.480 lot of questions to understand exactly where this young person is coming from. So if it's somebody who

00:13:47.820 has same-sex attraction, tell me the first time you experienced same-sex attraction. Tell me who you

00:13:53.540 came out to first and why. Tell me how they treated you. How did this affect the way you think about

00:13:58.380 God? There's a whole lot in the Bible that talks about listening before you speak. It's in James

00:14:04.020 1. It's all over the Proverbs. So I'm going to listen a whole lot to this person and just try to

00:14:09.760 understand their worldview, where they're coming from. Then I'll probably shift and I'll say,

00:14:13.720 do you understand what the Bible teaches about this? A lot of people don't even understand what

00:14:19.340 the Bible actually teaches about sexuality. And then I'm going to simply ask questions like,

00:14:25.400 why do you think the Bible teaches this? Have you ever thought through why the Bible says marriage

00:14:32.460 is one man and one woman for life? Why do you think God set it up this way? And I'm going to listen 0.98

00:14:39.400 and I'm just going to push back to God's design and God's intent. Now, in one sense, all of us,

00:14:46.320 the biblical message is that we are all sinners and fallen short. So the biblical message on this issue

00:14:52.540 or any issue is offensive. I don't want to soften that and pretend that God doesn't have certain

00:14:58.920 standards on sexuality. One way to do this is I do think we owe it to people to be very clear what

00:15:04.980 the Bible says. We can't sidestep that. But in many conversations, I've framed this as somebody I've

00:15:10.220 said, look, if there were a God who loved you and he gave certain design for sexuality and

00:15:17.380 relationships, would you be willing to listen to and follow what that God said? Now, that's a very

00:15:24.400 revealing question because it reveals whether the person says, I don't care what God says. I'm going

00:15:30.180 to live however I want to. Then that person is not really even open to it. If they say, yes, I would

00:15:37.040 follow what God says. I'd say, okay, let's look at what God says. Let's look at the person of Jesus as

00:15:43.560 much as I can, Allie. I try to get to the person of Jesus and ask the question, who is Jesus?

00:15:50.120 Because I think he speaks to every generation, but in particular, this generation, he cries out

00:15:54.860 against hypocrisy. Jesus loved those who are marginalized. And of course, when we use the

00:16:00.580 word marginalized, that has a little bit of a different understanding today than it did in the

00:16:04.540 time of Jesus. But he valued those who were hurting that were not valued by society. I want to draw

00:16:10.820 to the love and compassion and person of Jesus. And then say, what did Jesus view about marriage

00:16:17.280 and why? Now, if the person is open to it, here's kind of an exercise that I will try to do. This is

00:16:24.240 oftentimes more kind of in a classroom, but if an individual is open to it, I've asked him this

00:16:28.100 question a few times. I'll say something like, how do you think the world would be if everybody lived

00:16:35.580 out the sexual ethic of Jesus? Would it be better? Would it be the same? Or would it be worse?

00:16:41.920 Now, before I ask him to answer that, and you know this, Allie, I'm going to have to define

00:16:45.440 what the sexual ethic of Jesus is. And very simply, there's two ways to live in God-honoring

00:16:52.300 relationships. Number one is being single, and number two is being married. Now, if you are single,

00:16:57.960 Jesus was single, Paul was single, Jeremiah was likely single, then you're not sexually active.

00:17:02.700 If you are married, it's one person of the opposite sex who become one flesh for one lifetime. 0.99

00:17:09.820 And then I'll just ask, I'll say, imagine if everybody who was single was not sexually active,

00:17:13.920 and those who are married to some of the opposite sex were only sexually active with their spouse.

00:17:19.180 How would that affect society? And very quickly, people start to realize,

00:17:25.000 wow, there'd be no crude sexual humor. There'd be no need for the Me Too movement.

00:17:29.520 There'd be no abortion. And the dead, unborn babies, not to mention the hurt in the lives of

00:17:36.000 women. There'd be no pornography. There'd be no divorce. The point in that question is to try to

00:17:43.860 challenge a young person to think, without just pointing to the Bible, as powerful as that is,

00:17:48.300 is that maybe God has a design for sex and sexuality that is for our objective good.

00:17:55.140 But that's where I want to move things, if a young person is open to it.

00:18:00.260 Yes. And then just the conversation about what we feel, whether it's sexuality or anything,

00:18:06.980 because all of our feelings drive us at some point, really all sin, anytime we disobey God,

00:18:13.260 it is self-worship. It's saying, we know better than God. I know God says this. I'm going to do

00:18:18.820 something else because my feelings are so strong and I would rather follow them than follow the

00:18:25.420 God of the universe. How do you approach that conversation? Especially, as you mentioned

00:18:29.680 earlier, with a generation, again, we're all guilty of this to some extent, but with a generation

00:18:34.760 that has placed so much emphasis on feelings, where feelings really have become God. You mentioned

00:18:41.020 that at one point, there was at least some kind of general assumption in society that truth exists.

00:18:45.400 Now, of course, as you've heard, it's my truth and it's your truth, and it's really based on just

00:18:50.920 how you feel. Everything is subjective. So how do you approach that conversation? Whether it's about

00:18:56.040 sexuality, whether it's about gender, just morality and truth in general, why don't feelings trump

00:19:02.260 objective reality or some kind of universal morality? So one thing I don't want to do is downplay

00:19:09.180 the importance and value and beauty of feelings. Sometimes apologists and Christian thinkers

00:19:15.080 will just push you down. Don't ever follow your feelings. You can't trust. And I think, well,

00:19:18.800 maybe we're swinging a little bit too far to the other direction, but I will just ask simple

00:19:23.460 questions like, do you think it's wise to live a life based solely or entirely or primarily upon how

00:19:31.960 you feel? Would that set you more free or would that invite more problems into your life? One of my

00:19:39.880 biggest strategies, Ali, is I just ask questions. Jesus told stories and he asked questions. He asked

00:19:47.100 339 questions. We have 262 questions from Paul. So in interacting with anybody, and especially with

00:19:54.520 the younger person, I want to put the burden of proof upon them and just make them think.

00:19:59.380 So if I say it's a bad idea to live your life on feelings, up comes the defense from an adult telling

00:20:05.920 a young person how to live. And I was that way too. But if I just say, Hey, think about your life.

00:20:12.100 How do you think your diet or your job or anything in life would be if you based it upon your feelings?

00:20:21.400 And I think young people can start to unravel and realize that it's not going to work out. Now,

00:20:26.740 lurking behind this, I think is one of the biggest confusions that this generation has.

00:20:31.840 It's about the nature of freedom. I think one of the biggest lies this generation is tempted to

00:20:37.420 believe is about what freedom is. So when you ask almost any young person, really not just a young

00:20:42.560 person, how would you define freedom? Essentially freedom is, here's the definition that I've been

00:20:48.640 given many times, doing whatever you want without restraint. You be you. If you want it, do it. That's

00:20:58.700 what the real freedom is. So I've had many conversations with young people and I'll say,

00:21:03.760 okay, do you think it's possible to do what you want and not be free? Even if you feel like it and

00:21:10.120 you want it, is it possible to have that desire and do it and not be free? An example I'll give,

00:21:16.700 I'll say, what if a husband or a wife comes home from work and says, I don't really want to be with 0.99

00:21:21.740 my spouse and kids tonight. I just want to go look at pornography alone. And that's what they want to do.

00:21:28.040 And they do it. Are they more free? I think everybody realizes just doing what you feel

00:21:33.820 or doing what you want doesn't necessarily live to freedom. And the reason is because we can have

00:21:40.980 the wrong wants. I want to introduce to this generation, freedom's not do whatever you feel,

00:21:47.740 whatever you want. It's actually cultivating the right wants. And then second, I'll say is freedom

00:21:54.180 rejecting restraint. Remember again, the definition is do whatever you want without restraint.

00:22:00.460 And I'll, an example I like to use, I'll say, take a piano. One person takes a bat and just says, 0.97

00:22:04.300 I can do whatever I want. No restraint. I feel like this and just bashes a piano.

00:22:08.800 The other person says, wait a minute, I understand what a piano is for its design.

00:22:14.640 And they've cultivated the ability to play and they sit down and they play Bach or Mozart or

00:22:19.480 beautiful worship music. I'll ask young people, which student is more free? And I think they

00:22:26.940 intuitively understand that freedom is not just rejecting restraint. It's embracing the right

00:22:32.820 restraint. So freedom's not doing whatever you feel like or whatever you want. If your feelings

00:22:39.440 don't match up with what is good, or if you have the wrong wants, freedom's not rejecting restraint.

00:22:45.540 It actually comes with the right restraint. I am free in my relationship with my wife because we

00:22:51.980 say no to everybody else. It's actually those restraints that set us free. So I'm unpacking this

00:23:00.420 alley because I think behind these phrases that young people will say things like, you know, freedom

00:23:05.300 is just live your truth. We have to spend far more time clarifying, okay, what is truth? How do we find

00:23:12.640 it? What is freedom? What is the good life? We have to recognize that beneath these simple aphorisms

00:23:20.000 that we hear from young people are just a host of secular ideas that they've imbibed. We've got to

00:23:25.820 slowly deconstruct them and replace them with the truth.

00:23:41.120 Because I'm a mom of young kids, of toddlers, I always think of these kind of metaphors. And it's

00:23:47.040 so true in different areas of raising young kids. But my kids are a lot freer in the backyard than they

00:23:52.940 are in the front yard. The reason why you don't have to worry as much, they don't have as many

00:23:56.520 rules, they can run around as much as they want to go as far as they possibly can is because there's

00:24:01.400 a fence there. And the front yard, we're right by the street. And so I am a lot more, I'm a lot

00:24:08.660 quicker to put restrictions on what they do, how, you know, what they can go get, how far they can

00:24:13.580 throw the ball, how far they can run, because there's no boundaries, there's no fences there. So

00:24:18.140 they're actually less free when there are no boundaries and no restrictions than they are in

00:24:22.720 a place where there are boundaries. It's the same thing is true of a crib or a pack and play or any

00:24:26.660 of these things. These things actually make our kids not just safer, but more free because within

00:24:31.760 those boundaries, they can move around as much as they want to. When we remove those boundaries,

00:24:36.460 there's dangers all around that we actually have to, that they can fall into if there aren't those

00:24:41.740 restrictions. So I think about that as you're talking, I think that's such a good point.

00:24:45.980 And then I also think about Galatians 5, that talks about the very principle that you are speaking

00:24:52.640 to. Of course, verse 1 says, for freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, do not

00:24:58.020 submit again to a yoke of slavery. And then he talks about, you know, the Christians falling back into the 0.94

00:25:04.400 law and the different forms of legalism that they were told would be symbols of holiness. And he says,

00:25:10.740 no, that's not what we're doing anymore. We're not called to find our holiness and our

00:25:15.600 righteousness in these different kind of external symbols that are given to us by the law. But he

00:25:22.540 says in verse 16, but I say, walk by the Spirit and you will, or sorry, actually, let me back up a

00:25:29.220 little bit. Verse 13, for you are called the freedom brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an

00:25:34.160 opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. So that's what you're talking about.

00:25:39.500 Freedom doesn't mean doing whatever you want without restraint. It means being restrained by

00:25:44.680 something better, right? So I think there's two ways to look at freedom that you're unpacking.

00:25:50.900 Number one is freedom from. This is what we might call negative freedom. Freedom from fear. Freedom from

00:25:58.640 guilt. Freedom from sin, as Paul talks about in Galatians. That's negative freedom. But there's

00:26:05.940 also freedom for, which is positive freedom. So for example, if I pick up my smartphone,

00:26:12.580 this has been designed by somebody. It's not a waffle maker. It's not a scuba tank. It's certainly

00:26:18.780 not a parachute. It's only when I understand what this is for and use it accordingly that somebody is

00:26:26.480 set free. So there's no coincidence that the Bible starts with, in the beginning, God created.

00:26:34.620 The first thing we're told about God is not that God is love or just or holy or merciful,

00:26:39.480 but that God is a creator. Because if we are created, there's a purpose for us, like a smartphone,

00:26:47.300 about how we're supposed to operate, so to speak. That's why the issue of creation is so heated and so

00:26:55.500 debated. Because people realize if there is a creator, then purpose is built into the world.

00:27:02.460 And I'm only free when I understand that purpose. It was G.K. Chesterton, the great British writer,

00:27:09.520 over a century plus ago. He kind of made the point. He said, there's no freedom without truth.

00:27:15.280 Take, for example, a camel. You can free a camel from the zoo, but don't free a camel from its hump.

00:27:23.540 Having a hump is part of what it means to be a camel. Same with a tiger. You can free a tiger from the

00:27:27.900 zoo, but don't free it from its stripes. It's only when we understand what a camel is, we understand 0.92

00:27:34.260 what a tiger is, and help it live according to its design that it's set free. So this raises the

00:27:43.040 question, is there a God who's designed us to live a certain way? If not, then live however you want.

00:27:50.380 Just follow your feelings. Seize the day, so to speak. But if there is a God who's designed us to

00:27:57.120 live a certain way, then just like you read from Galatians, we are only free when we know the world

00:28:03.700 as God has made it and conform our lives to that truth. That's what brings real freedom. And that

00:28:11.960 brings you back to the example you gave with your kids. God has given us fences and boundaries of

00:28:16.920 marriage. He's given us fences and boundaries of gender. And it's not rejecting those that brings

00:28:23.840 freedom. It's actually following them that brings the most freedom for individuals and for society.

00:28:31.660 Yes. And that really gets to the heart of everything. As you just mentioned, whether it's

00:28:35.980 gender or sex or abortion, it all goes back to really the first verse of the first chapter of the

00:28:42.360 Bible that God created the heavens and the earth. If you believe that, that really changes

00:28:46.280 everything. That means he not just created it, but if he created it, he is the authority over all of it.

00:28:51.820 He is the definer of all of it. He is the arbiter then of right and wrong, true and false, what is and

00:28:57.120 what isn't, male and female, all of that. I mean, there's a lot packed into that. And it really is a

00:29:02.600 debate over telos. It's a debate over purpose. Like, were we given an intrinsic purpose? Are we human

00:29:10.880 beings made in the image of God with innate value, with an innate purpose? Or are we all just cosmic

00:29:16.720 accidents? Are we all just clumps of cells and balls of matter? If that's the case, why not

00:29:22.020 self-identify? Why not just follow your feelings? Why not just subject objective reality to whatever

00:29:28.380 you want and however you feel? Why not just decide that a baby in a womb is not really a human because

00:29:35.400 you don't want it to be? It really all goes back to who is in charge and who created us and why,

00:29:42.860 don't you think? I do. And I think here's what's important for people to realize. When we debate

00:29:49.300 or discuss abortion or we debate marriage or racial injustice, whatever topic we want to talk about,

00:29:56.000 we tend to think it's just about the facts and it's about the particular issue at play.

00:30:01.120 What people don't realize is behind it, there are entirely different worldview assumptions at play.

00:30:09.040 Is there a God who made us? Is there a purpose built into the world? Are we actually made in God's

00:30:16.940 image as male and female? Do human beings have intrinsic value? I mean, for me, at the root of

00:30:25.340 biblical justice is we should be against racial injustice because every single person, regardless

00:30:31.920 of their skin color is made in the image of God. The reason we should care about poverty is because 0.99

00:30:38.100 everybody, rich or poor, is made in the image of God. The reason we should think about marriage 0.85

00:30:44.720 and care about marriage and defend marriage is because God has made us male and female and built

00:30:53.500 that into the fabric of society. And kids need a mom and kids need a dad. The reason we should care 0.99

00:31:02.340 about pro-life is because every single human being, whether in the womb or out of the womb, rich or poor,

00:31:11.420 black or white, male or female, is made in the image of God and has infinite dignity and value and worth.

00:31:21.580 So behind all these issues are deeper worldview commitments. So if we just discuss on the surface

00:31:29.400 and don't get to some of those deeper worldview commitments, number one, our society is going

00:31:34.240 to get more and more divided, but we'll not make any headway in our conversations with people.

00:31:40.700 And of course, with all of those things, like something that is kind of is,

00:31:44.340 there's so many things packed into a term like racial justice or social justice. Anytime you put an

00:31:49.380 adjective before justice, we have to define our terms. And as Christians, we have to define justice

00:31:55.400 how God defines justice. Of course, I totally agree with your principle. I just kind of wanted

00:32:00.820 to put that caveat in there that we don't want to just accept what the world says is racial justice

00:32:06.480 or social justice or any of these things, inclusion, diversity, all of that stuff. We have to make sure

00:32:10.920 that we're going back to the definer of all things to make sure that our definitions align with his.

00:32:20.200 Okay. I know that you guys were so encouraged by that conversation. I was too. We talk about these

00:32:25.580 issues a lot. And yet I feel like I learned so much from someone who is in these kinds of debates

00:32:31.660 and discussions on a daily basis on a college campus. So I hope that was helpful to you guys.

00:32:36.420 That was part one. Part two is coming. We're going to talk about creation, young earth versus new

00:32:41.940 earth. What is the support for these kinds of arguments? How should we approach them? How should

00:32:47.120 we approach them in conversations with unbelievers, as well as the evidence that we have for Jesus

00:32:53.100 Christ, for the resurrection, and why those things matter? And then he's also going to give even more

00:32:59.920 encouragement to us too, and helping the next generation think through these things.

00:33:03.900 So thanks so much for listening. Stay tuned for part two.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - November 01, 2023

Ep 900 ｜ How to Reach Gen Z with the Gospel ｜ Guest： Dr. Sean McDowell (Part One)

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