Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - November 02, 2023


Ep 901 ｜ Does the Age of the Earth Matter？ ｜ Guest： Dr. Sean McDowell (Part Two)


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Length

34 minutes

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171.20145

Word count

5,944

Sentence count

350

Harmful content

Misogyny

8

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Hate speech

20

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Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Dr. Sean McDowell is back with us for part two of our two-part conversation on the age of the earth and how to reconcile science and faith. How old is the earth? How old was there a Noah? How long ago did the earth exist? How did dinosaurs exist? What is the difference between a young earth and an old earth perspective? What are the differences between creationism and creationism? How do we reconcile science with faith? And how do we talk about all of these issues with our children in a way that they can understand and understand them?

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.700 How old is the earth?
00:00:02.900 How do we reconcile science and faith?
00:00:06.260 How do we know that Jesus really existed and was raised from the dead?
00:00:10.880 And then how do we talk about all of these issues and all kinds of faith issues with
00:00:17.380 our children in a way that they can understand and will really make an impact on their worldview?
00:00:23.500 Dr. Sean McDowell is back with us today for part two of our two-part conversation,
00:00:28.580 answering these questions for us.
00:00:31.020 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
00:00:34.140 Go to GoodRanchers.com.
00:00:35.580 That's American Meat Delivered.
00:00:37.220 Use code Allie at checkout. 1.00
00:00:39.000 That's GoodRanchers.com.
00:00:40.340 Code Allie. 1.00
00:00:50.180 This is not something that I have really covered in depth on my podcast.
00:00:53.480 And just to be honest, it's not really something that, I mean, yes, of course,
00:00:58.140 as a lifelong Christian, I went to a Christian school and all of that.
00:01:02.200 Thank the Lord for all of that.
00:01:04.040 But, and so we've studied creation, the different theories about creation, young earth, old earth,
00:01:10.240 dinosaurs, all of those things.
00:01:12.020 But personally, in my adult life, I have not really dug that much into all of the different
00:01:18.440 camps surrounding Genesis 1 through 3.
00:01:20.900 So I know that's a huge question, and I'm not asking you to land on a particular conclusion
00:01:26.040 or a particular view.
00:01:26.960 But how do we even start kind of navigating as Christians, okay, how old is the earth?
00:01:32.740 Does it really matter?
00:01:34.340 Like, does it really matter when dinosaurs existed and all of that?
00:01:37.860 You mentioned that people care about science.
00:01:40.040 They don't want to abandon science for Christianity. 0.96
00:01:41.840 So I guess it does matter.
00:01:43.120 Like, we should be able to answer these questions.
00:01:44.680 So where do we start?
00:01:45.780 So this might be helpful.
00:01:48.900 My father and I wrote a book together a few years ago called Evidence It Demands a Verdict,
00:01:53.100 and we added a chapter on Genesis.
00:01:56.520 And basically, one of the things we said is there's certain essentials that Christians
00:02:00.920 have to be committed to.
00:02:02.580 Number one, that God is the creator.
00:02:05.700 That is an essential belief for Christians.
00:02:09.160 Issue number two is that the Bible is authoritative, and it's God's word.
00:02:13.660 And we have to be committed to interpreting it properly.
00:02:17.760 But how we reconcile scientific beliefs and faith, there always has been, and there still
00:02:24.720 are, a range of views within the Christian fold.
00:02:28.440 So I just want to make that distinction between things that are essential.
00:02:31.920 The Bible is God's word.
00:02:33.780 God is the creator.
00:02:35.340 If you give those up, I would argue you are outside of the Christian fold. 0.98
00:02:39.760 But how we interpret the Bible, the means by which God created, these are important issues
00:02:45.920 that play out a lot in our practical lives in the intersection of science and faith, but
00:02:51.520 they're areas in which Christians can disagree.
00:02:54.580 So when it comes to something like the age of the earth, there's a range of views.
00:02:58.080 We actually walked in that chapter, 10 different options, and there's more than that.
00:03:02.480 But one option would be a young earth perspective, which would say probably 10 to 12,000 years
00:03:09.540 old is how old the earth is.
00:03:11.880 And they would tend to take Genesis, the days in Genesis 1, in a straightforward, literalistic
00:03:18.120 24-hour period.
00:03:20.820 And of course, that means that humans lived with dinosaurs, and dinosaurs either died out
00:03:25.380 in the flood, or they died subsequently in some, say, natural disasters, or they just went
00:03:32.020 extinct.
00:03:32.900 That's a young earth position, has been held by some in the history of the church and many
00:03:36.640 Christians today.
00:03:37.440 But there's also a lot of Christians who hold what's called an old earth perspective, where
00:03:42.900 they would adopt kind of what you might say is just kind of a modern scientific understanding
00:03:47.900 of the age of the universe, maybe 13.8, 13.9 billion years old, the earth maybe 3.7 billion
00:03:55.120 years old.
00:03:56.320 And they would say one of two things with Genesis.
00:03:58.640 Either the days are like 1,000 years to the Lord, their extended period of time, just like
00:04:05.240 we might say today is the day of artificial intelligence, or they would look at things
00:04:09.880 like Genesis and say, it's not even trying to give us a specific scientific account.
00:04:16.080 This is written 3,000 plus years ago, roughly.
00:04:18.760 And it's not trying to tell us the specific ways that God did create.
00:04:25.440 Those are the two camps.
00:04:27.460 Now, for me, I don't die, so to speak, on one of the twos.
00:04:31.080 I have those two perspectives.
00:04:32.440 I have my own opinions, and I have my own leanings.
00:04:35.000 But this is an in-house Christian debate.
00:04:37.980 And we've got to follow where the science leads, got to follow the best biblical exegesis.
00:04:44.220 And what I believe is when we do the science well, unencumbered by a kind of naturalistic
00:04:49.720 worldview, and we understand the theology correctly, the two will line up.
00:04:55.000 So I would appeal to Christians to follow the facts, debate this.
00:04:58.480 But we don't have time as a body of Christ to divide over this issue today.
00:05:02.780 We have far more pressing issues at hand.
00:05:06.500 Yeah.
00:05:07.580 Okay, that's good.
00:05:08.700 I think that leads us to a good place and just emphasizes why it is important for us to
00:05:13.600 be thoughtful about this and to at least have an answer.
00:05:17.200 And that doesn't necessarily mean, so if you had like an unbeliever ask you, okay, well, 0.93
00:05:21.680 how old is the earth?
00:05:22.640 Or what about these fossils or something?
00:05:24.860 We don't have to have an exact answer in order to be prepared to engage in that kind of
00:05:30.520 conversation with someone who is an unbeliever and is demanding those answers, right? 0.99
00:05:35.400 I totally agree.
00:05:36.560 Here's what I would say.
00:05:37.300 If somebody said, hey, how old do you think the earth is?
00:05:39.500 And they're not a Christian. 0.94
00:05:40.600 I'd say, I'm happy to give you my opinion, but I'm curious of all the questions you can
00:05:45.800 ask about the Christian faith.
00:05:47.740 Why is that one so pressing to you?
00:05:50.700 I want to know where that question comes from, because oftentimes people have been told if they
00:05:56.420 don't adopt a certain view of the age of the earth, then they cannot be a Christian. 0.97
00:06:02.600 Now that tends to be typically coming from certain young earthers, but I've heard that
00:06:06.760 from old earthers as well.
00:06:08.440 So there I would want to just find out if somebody said, yeah, I, I, I've been told that if you
00:06:13.280 don't think the earth is 10,000 years old, you can't be a Christian. 1.00
00:06:16.220 All I would want to do is just unpack that and say, you know what?
00:06:19.540 That is one position.
00:06:21.000 And there's a lot of really smart young earthers who have put forward arguments for this position.
00:06:26.260 You should take seriously, but it's not the only position.
00:06:29.540 And there's very smart scientists and biblical scholars who make a case for the old earth.
00:06:36.080 So really then I'm going to shift the question to either who is Jesus or is there evidence
00:06:41.280 for a designer?
00:06:42.660 Bottom line, Allie, I want to make sure I die on the right hills and I don't always do this.
00:06:47.660 I'm not going to pretend that I do, but I want to keep the main thing.
00:06:50.820 The main thing and shift it back to, is there evidence for a designer in the universe?
00:06:54.940 Who is Jesus?
00:06:56.280 And then we can get to some of these important, but secondary issues in due time.
00:07:01.280 Yeah.
00:07:01.520 And let's talk about Jesus.
00:07:03.160 You know, I didn't know that it was even a debate that Jesus existed, but I do see some
00:07:09.740 atheists saying, um, and it's typically atheists.
00:07:13.160 It's not typically people of other faiths saying Jesus didn't even exist.
00:07:17.900 I didn't even know that that was a debated issue.
00:07:20.060 Yes, of course, there's debate over whether he was God, not within Christianity, but outside
00:07:24.820 of Christianity, people don't believe that he was God.
00:07:28.080 Um, but I mean, is there, is there a debate about the historicity of the existence of Jesus?
00:07:35.100 Well, of course, when we say, is there a debate, we have to clarify what form we're talking
00:07:39.480 about because people, as you know, literally debate everything on the internet.
00:07:44.220 Was there a Holocaust is the earth flat, et cetera. 0.90
00:07:48.560 So sure.
00:07:49.260 There's an internet debate about this.
00:07:51.260 Is there a scholarly debate about this?
00:07:54.160 I would say essentially no.
00:07:56.720 Even scholars like Bart Ehrman, who's kind of an agnostic, atheist, uh, textual critic,
00:08:03.440 obviously an expert in his lane, even though we differ out a lot about a lot of stuff.
00:08:07.480 About 10 or 12 years ago, he wrote a book on the existence of Jesus.
00:08:12.020 Now he rejects the supernatural.
00:08:14.360 He rejects the resurrection.
00:08:15.520 But he says this idea that Jesus didn't exist is actually a modern myth.
00:08:22.200 And I would agree with him that the reason is just, we have too much evidence from such
00:08:26.800 a range of different views.
00:08:28.460 So whether it's the new Testament, and I don't even start there assuming it's inspired.
00:08:32.880 I'm just saying we have four biographies of Jesus.
00:08:35.640 We have the book of Acts.
00:08:37.080 We have Hebrews.
00:08:38.540 We have the writings of Paul.
00:08:40.180 These are multiple letters.
00:08:41.900 Then we have early church fathers in the first century, the end of the first century.
00:08:47.120 We have extra biblical writers, such as Josephus, a Jew, Tacitus, a Roman.
00:08:53.380 There is no good reason to debate that Jesus existed, even though a handful of scholars will
00:09:01.420 push back on this.
00:09:02.500 To give a little context, some people would say the same thing about evolution.
00:09:05.720 They'd say it's so obvious that Darwinian or neo-Darwinian evolution is true.
00:09:09.940 There's no debate about this.
00:09:11.900 Well, you could probably count on one, maybe two hands, as far as I'm aware, the number
00:09:17.200 of scholars who doubt the existence of Jesus.
00:09:19.820 There are hundreds of scholars with PhDs in science who don't necessarily believe in
00:09:26.880 intelligent design, but who doubt the mechanism of neo-Darwinism, or at least doubt that we
00:09:32.960 can explain naturalistically the origin of life and the complexity and diversity of species.
00:09:38.740 So there's far more debate about questions of evolution than there are about the existence
00:09:44.660 of Jesus, even though the majority of scientists, as far as I'm aware, would embrace some kind
00:09:49.560 of evolutionary model.
00:10:02.600 And then how do we get in the conversation from the existence of Jesus to, yes, Jesus really
00:10:08.800 said that he was God, and we know that he was God?
00:10:12.200 Well, there's a few ways to go about this.
00:10:16.060 One is to just look at the evidence for the Gospels themselves.
00:10:20.260 Are these books reliable, and are they historical?
00:10:24.000 Now, of course, we'd have to look at the manuscript evidence of how they were copied over time,
00:10:28.140 how early these manuscripts are, how many claimed mistakes there are.
00:10:31.780 And I think when you compare the manuscript authority of the New Testament with other ancient
00:10:37.020 books, even many classicists would say this book was very, very carefully preserved.
00:10:42.480 We could look at some of the internal evidence for the Gospels, things like the Gospel writers,
00:10:47.060 including embarrassing details, which are not the kind of things that you would invent, which
00:10:54.340 tells us their concern with truth.
00:10:56.300 We can start to look at the archaeological records.
00:10:59.080 Some of the people mentioned within the Gospels, even I think it's in Luke chapter 3, Lysanias
00:11:04.820 is mentioned, this incidental name, and we found an inscription matching up, likely being
00:11:11.680 that Lysanias. 0.98
00:11:12.980 So we just would have to historically look at the Gospels and ask, are these reliable historical
00:11:18.420 documents?
00:11:19.000 And I think a powerful case can be made so.
00:11:21.900 And then within the New Testament, we have to say, okay, who did Jesus understand himself
00:11:25.760 to be?
00:11:26.380 Who did the other followers of Jesus understand himself to be?
00:11:32.360 And I think you can even go to the earliest Gospel of Mark.
00:11:36.180 The vast majority of scholars will make the case that Mark was the first Gospel, and then
00:11:41.840 Matthew and Luke, the other synoptics, used Mark as a source.
00:11:46.660 Now, most would concede that John, written the latest, clearly lays out that Jesus claimed
00:11:51.200 to be God.
00:11:51.700 But if you look at the Gospel of Mark, just at the beginning, it's really interesting.
00:11:56.000 There's some clues that Jesus claimed to have divine authority.
00:11:59.600 For example, it starts with a prophecy, a reference from Isaiah about the coming of a one who will
00:12:06.380 proclaim the Lord.
00:12:08.120 And then it references to John the Baptist proclaiming the coming of Jesus.
00:12:11.820 Because Jesus is the Lord of the Old Testament.
00:12:16.740 You shift to Mark chapter 2.
00:12:18.700 Jesus heals somebody who had sinned against God.
00:12:23.140 Why?
00:12:23.520 Because Jesus has divine authority within himself.
00:12:27.840 You shift further.
00:12:28.820 Jesus has the authority to override the Sabbath, which was instituted by God himself.
00:12:35.840 Why?
00:12:36.680 Because Jesus is God in human flesh.
00:12:39.300 And of course, in the Gospel of Mark, it really culminates where you have Jesus on the cross.
00:12:44.600 And even the Roman centurion says, surely he's the son of God.
00:12:48.260 And that's why in Mark chapter 14, Jesus is asked, you know, are you the Messiah, the coming
00:12:55.580 one?
00:12:56.360 And Jesus cites Daniel chapter 7, which is a reference of this divine figure coming on the
00:13:03.100 clouds of heaven.
00:13:04.260 It comes full circle at the end of Mark.
00:13:07.080 So to answer your question, I'm happy to look at the evidence that the New Testament and
00:13:11.660 the Gospels in particular are reliable.
00:13:14.180 And then we just look at the claims that Jesus made.
00:13:16.900 And I think it's very clear that he understood himself to be God in human flesh.
00:13:21.620 And his followers like Paul and Peter and the book of Hebrews understood that as well.
00:13:26.320 And then, of course, a central distinction is his resurrection from the dead, because there
00:13:32.220 were other men around Jesus's time claiming to be some kind of Messiah, which some people
00:13:37.720 point out as, well, see, Jesus was just one.
00:13:41.460 He was just one of the many who claimed to be a Messiah.
00:13:43.960 And then he was killed for the trouble that he caused in Rome.
00:13:47.460 I've heard that line of reasoning often.
00:13:51.620 But we believe that Jesus was raised from the dead.
00:13:55.340 So what evidence do we have for that?
00:13:58.160 I think you're right to point to it.
00:13:59.700 This is the ultimate miracle.
00:14:01.760 In John chapter 2, the religious leaders asked Jesus for a sign.
00:14:05.680 And what does he say?
00:14:06.720 He says, I'm going to destroy this temple and three days raise it again.
00:14:10.220 And they didn't understand that he meant the temple of his body.
00:14:12.780 He thought they meant the temple in Jerusalem.
00:14:14.340 Later, his apostles looked back and realized, oh, my goodness, he was talking about his
00:14:18.740 resurrection, which, of course, he also prophesied three times in Mark 8, 9, and 10.
00:14:23.760 So what's the evidence?
00:14:24.660 Number one, there's no doubt Jesus lived.
00:14:27.180 Second, we actually have very good evidence that Jesus was crucified.
00:14:30.520 We have the biblical account.
00:14:32.160 We have the extra biblical account, early church fathers, Josephus and Tacitus.
00:14:37.680 And also, if they were inventing a Messiah, they would not invent one that was shamefully
00:14:44.000 crucified.
00:14:45.780 So we know Jesus lived.
00:14:48.220 He died by crucifixion.
00:14:50.100 We have very good reason.
00:14:51.520 Gary Habermas right now, probably the leading resurrection scholar in the world, is working
00:14:55.140 on a four-volume, I think 5,000-word defense of the resurrection.
00:15:00.620 And as far as I'm aware, he's advanced 21 arguments for the empty tomb.
00:15:04.480 Just one of them that's interesting is that the tomb is discovered by women. 0.83
00:15:08.100 Now, why does that matter?
00:15:08.960 In that society at that time, a woman's testimony was not considered as significant as a man's.
00:15:16.520 So if they're inventing a story about an empty tomb, trying to appeal to their audience,
00:15:22.160 why would all four Gospels report that the tomb was discovered empty by women?
00:15:27.180 That's one argument.
00:15:28.740 And then we have to shift to the appearances.
00:15:31.060 Do we have reason to believe that Jesus appeared to people?
00:15:33.600 We have multiple accounts, again, in the Gospels, in the letters of Paul.
00:15:40.300 And what's amazing is the vast majority of scholars agree that the disciples had appearances,
00:15:46.420 had experiences that they believed were of the risen Jesus.
00:15:52.100 So Jesus lived, died.
00:15:54.220 We have evidence the tomb is empty.
00:15:55.740 And all these claims that Jesus appeared to them, that's a pretty solid case.
00:16:00.180 But then people will come up with what are called naturalistic hypotheses.
00:16:04.840 Things like maybe the apostles had hallucinations.
00:16:08.280 Well, one problem is, is that hallucinations, there's minimal evidence that they could ever
00:16:14.320 be group hallucinations, like dreams, their individual experiences.
00:16:19.740 So there is no other alternative that can account for all the facts like the resurrection.
00:16:25.380 I think what it boils back to, and Gary Habermas has said this too, is really just a resistance
00:16:31.400 to miracles, a commitment to naturalism that says, even if the evidence is pointing this
00:16:37.380 direction, we know there has to be some other explanation because people don't rise from
00:16:41.720 the grave.
00:16:42.580 But I think for those who are open to following the evidence where it leads, a compelling case
00:16:48.040 can be made that Jesus, in fact, rose on the third day.
00:16:50.920 Yes, and there has to be, I mean, even just looking from a practical perspective, there
00:16:56.320 has to be some explanation for why Jesus stuck.
00:16:59.760 If there were all these men who claimed to be a Messiah, and they all ended up dying, they
00:17:04.560 all kind of taught things and said that they were the fulfillment of prophecies, why is it
00:17:10.020 Jesus that we base our entire timeline, all of history off of?
00:17:14.640 Why has it been Jesus who has started this movement that has spread like wildfire and
00:17:20.720 has forged civilizations and has changed nations?
00:17:24.920 Like, why is it Jesus who's stuck if not for the resurrection, if not for the evidence that
00:17:29.780 we have for him?
00:17:30.360 I think that's just, I don't know, that's a question that I go back to because we all
00:17:34.520 have times where we're wrestling with, well, what is this?
00:17:37.680 Did this really happen?
00:17:38.760 I just think about the centrality of Jesus and the inescapableness or inescapability,
00:17:46.140 maybe, of Jesus to even the non-believer.
00:17:50.100 He is literally what you are basing time off of, what you are basing your calendar off
00:17:56.340 of, whether you believe in him or not.
00:17:59.640 I think that's a great question.
00:18:01.240 Now, some skeptics might push back and say, well, the reason Jesus took is because we had
00:18:06.800 the Pax Romana at this time, and now we had roads.
00:18:11.120 Now we had the ability to travel and spread a message.
00:18:14.760 We had written texts.
00:18:15.980 So it's this coincidence of all these factors that come together.
00:18:19.640 And I would say those factors are necessary, but not sufficient to explain, like you said,
00:18:26.320 the explosion of the origin of the church.
00:18:29.540 One reason is there's a lot of other people claiming to be messiahs.
00:18:33.460 There were a lot of other religions at that time.
00:18:36.420 So why this one?
00:18:37.700 And then the other piece is you also have the apostles willing to suffer and willing to
00:18:44.120 die for their beliefs that they had seen the risen Jesus.
00:18:48.540 Why put yourself in harm's way if you don't minimally have the belief that Jesus has risen
00:18:57.080 from the grave?
00:18:58.340 And, you know, Ali, to kind of bring this full circle to a point that's made early, it's
00:19:01.260 really interesting.
00:19:01.760 We hear today that people say the Christian message is bigoted and it's harmful to women.
00:19:07.700 In the early church, it was largely led by masses of women who embraced the Christian faith.
00:19:15.300 I was just preaching on Acts 17 recently, how Paul goes to Berea, Thessalonica, and Athens.
00:19:23.320 And in all three places, it tells us that some women believed.
00:19:28.800 Why?
00:19:29.640 Because the message of Jesus was liberating.
00:19:32.360 It said that women are not just objects, they are made in the image of God and should 0.99
00:19:38.540 be treated with dignity.
00:19:40.000 That you are to honor a promise in marriage.
00:19:43.920 That there is no distinction before Christ between slave and free, Greek and Jew, male 0.56
00:19:51.500 and female.
00:19:53.020 Children are valuable.
00:19:54.880 So I think it's not only the evidence for Christianity, I think it's the power of the
00:20:01.200 message of Christianity that led to, through the Holy Spirit, of course, that led to turning 0.99
00:20:06.300 the world upside down against all odds that now J.P.
00:20:11.560 Moreland, someone I teach with at Biola, he said, we call our dogs Caesar, but we call our
00:20:16.460 kids Peter, Paul, and James.
00:20:18.760 Wow.
00:20:18.860 Yeah, that's such a good point.
00:20:21.260 I don't know if you've read the book by Owen Backey.
00:20:25.320 I think it's called When Children Became People.
00:20:28.260 If that's not the title of it, that's the concept of it.
00:20:30.640 And basically, he talks about, I just think this is so fascinating, exactly what you're
00:20:34.860 saying, how when Christianity burst onto the scene, it revolutionized over time how society
00:20:42.040 saw women and children.
00:20:43.520 I mean, the adult free male was really the nucleus of society, really not only seen as
00:20:49.880 the person kind of with rights, but really the person with the only capability, the full
00:20:57.460 capability to be a real person that had the logos, the ability to reason and to debate
00:21:05.360 and to really do anything that was productive or contributed to society.
00:21:11.300 And of course, slaves and the elderly and the disabled and women and children were seen
00:21:16.220 as truly kind of on the marginalized, and particularly children, because there was such a high mortality
00:21:23.420 rate for children.
00:21:24.940 They were very often used for manual labor.
00:21:27.920 They were very often disregarded or they were used as sexual objects.
00:21:31.560 When Christianity came along and said, actually, these vulnerable people are made in the image
00:21:36.660 of God, they have equal worth and equal dignity.
00:21:39.960 And actually, the most vulnerable need to be cared for even more.
00:21:43.180 They deserve even more of our honor, more of our time, more of our resources rather than
00:21:47.920 less.
00:21:48.860 That that completely changed how the world saw these different classes of people.
00:21:54.580 Of course, that's not to say that it's perfect today, that everything has been changed and
00:21:58.880 everyone sees people as made in the image of God.
00:22:01.380 But wow, the impact that Christianity, that the gospel had, that Jesus had on how we see
00:22:08.640 vulnerable people, people other than the adult free male, it's totally incalculable. 0.74
00:22:13.860 And I think that that's one thing that we take for granted today.
00:22:16.640 All of these things that we attribute to secular movements or just attribute to, I don't know,
00:22:22.220 nebulous progress that I guess some believe is just inevitable.
00:22:27.080 It really goes back to the gospel.
00:22:28.980 It goes back to the person of Jesus and who he is and what he taught, right?
00:22:35.220 You know, Wednesday night, I was speaking at a local church and then we did a live Q&A and
00:22:39.820 it was mostly Christians, but there were some atheists and skeptics there.
00:22:43.500 And a lady asked a question. 0.99
00:22:45.460 She just said, I've been coming to church and I want to believe that every time I get
00:22:49.580 closer to believe, I just see Christians who are hypocrites and they fail to live out what 1.00
00:22:55.920 they say, and I know you feel this way too, but I just sat there and like, my heart just
00:23:00.720 aches because as much as we want to say, well, they're just not leaving the message of Jesus.
00:23:05.980 If you know a Christian, that person represents Jesus to you.
00:23:09.880 And so the idea that Christians have fallen short is well known in the world today, where
00:23:16.320 there's different sexual scandals, where there's church failures.
00:23:20.420 We as a church need to plead guilty that we have to do better, but that's
00:23:25.920 only a piece of the story.
00:23:27.780 I think we also should be proud as Christians of the legacy of human rights, distinctly brought
00:23:35.700 on by people motivated with a Christian worldview.
00:23:40.320 There has never been a greater force for good in the history of the world than the Christian
00:23:47.140 message when practiced by believers loving their neighbors.
00:23:51.980 And this goes back to the first century.
00:23:53.940 Why does James say this is good and true religion?
00:23:57.700 You care for widows and orphans in the culture at that time, widows and orphans could be discarded 1.00
00:24:03.680 because they had no instrumental value for society.
00:24:07.180 The Romans could take their children. 0.93
00:24:09.840 They didn't want them and go put them on a hill to just die.
00:24:13.840 Christians came along and said, wait a minute, widows and orphans are made in the image of God. 0.99
00:24:19.020 They have value.
00:24:20.760 So it's Christians who started hospitals, Christians who started orphanages, Christians who led the 1.00
00:24:29.160 anti-slavery movement, even though certainly there were some Christians who tried to use
00:24:34.080 the Bible to defend their power.
00:24:35.820 Unfortunately, William Wilberforce motivated by his Christian commitments.
00:24:41.740 Dietrich Bonhoeffer resisting the Nazis, laying his life down because of his Christian commitments.
00:24:48.120 Martin Luther King Jr., unashamedly cited the prophets and Amos of letting justice roll down.
00:24:56.460 So Christians have fallen short, but it is the Christian message that has positively turned 1.00
00:25:02.340 the world upside down when we just love our neighbors.
00:25:06.420 And sometimes I get tired of our society pushing back so much and trying to shame Christians to 0.57
00:25:12.160 not be proud of that.
00:25:13.040 I think we should recognize the fault, but be proud of the good that Christianity has brought
00:25:19.000 to the world as well and try to practice it better in our lives today.
00:25:22.560 I think there's a lot of questions today about raising kids and what seems like such a post-truth
00:25:40.140 crazy environment.
00:25:41.080 It's a scary world to be in when you were even rejecting such basic biological definitions
00:25:46.360 as male and female.
00:25:47.380 And it seems like it's encroaching more and more.
00:25:50.660 It's more and more difficult to kind of protect our kids from some of these lies and to prepare
00:25:55.160 them at such a young age.
00:25:56.860 But something that I take comfort in is, look, like Christians have been battling against the 0.99
00:26:02.680 culture, have been battling against wickedness, have been battling against the powers that be
00:26:08.140 since its inception.
00:26:09.800 And what Christians did at the very beginning, we are still called to today.
00:26:15.600 We are still called to abide by Jesus's teachings.
00:26:18.540 We are still called to not fear.
00:26:20.460 We are still called to be a refuge for the vulnerable of clarity and of courage in an age
00:26:25.940 of chaos and cowardice.
00:26:27.800 Yes, it might look different than it did 10 years ago or a thousand years ago, but the role
00:26:32.400 and the responsibility is the same.
00:26:34.380 And Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
00:26:37.420 And he equips every generation exactly how he sees fit.
00:26:42.940 Amen to that.
00:26:44.000 Since you mentioned parents, maybe I could give a little bit of encouragement to parents
00:26:47.340 that are listening.
00:26:48.100 I've been studying the data on faith transmission going back to the early 70s.
00:26:53.400 This is work by like Christian Smith, for example, at the University of Notre Dame.
00:26:57.660 And the studies show consistently, and it's true today, that the number one influence in
00:27:02.760 the life of a young person in their worldview is not Netflix, it's not the educational system,
00:27:09.180 it's not some political figure, it's not TikTok.
00:27:12.700 It's mom and it's dad.
00:27:15.620 We have the primary power.
00:27:17.960 Now, there is no formula for passing on your faith, so to speak, because people have free
00:27:23.280 will.
00:27:23.560 But if there were to be a formula, here's the three things, as simply as I can put it,
00:27:30.360 that parents ought to do.
00:27:31.920 Number one, you have to live a life that's authentic, not perfect.
00:27:37.460 You have to model what it means to really follow Jesus.
00:27:41.480 If we don't live it out, then it doesn't matter what we say.
00:27:44.160 So number one, model it.
00:27:45.920 Number two, build relationships with your kids.
00:27:50.160 Build intimate, close relationships with your kids.
00:27:53.840 The largest secular study I'm aware of, a faith transmission, says the number one factor
00:27:59.300 that prevents a kid from abandoning their faith is a, quote, warm relationship with the
00:28:06.220 father.
00:28:07.420 And I could back that up if we wanted to get into detail on it.
00:28:09.760 But number one, model it.
00:28:11.120 Number two, build relationships.
00:28:12.300 That is mom and that is dad.
00:28:14.420 Number three, have meaningful spiritual conversations with our kids.
00:28:19.760 Spiritual conversation.
00:28:20.840 Of course, we see this in Deuteronomy 6.
00:28:22.800 Love Lord God, the heart, soul, mind, strength, and talk about these things you do to kids
00:28:25.980 when they wake up, when they lie down, when you go along the way.
00:28:29.940 So model it, build relationships with your kids, and seek intentional spiritual conversations.
00:28:35.740 Now, what might this look like?
00:28:37.060 One quick story.
00:28:38.440 I think it was five years ago.
00:28:40.180 My son, who's now 19, when he was 14, wanted to see that movie, Bohemian Rhapsody,
00:28:44.520 by the rock band Queen.
00:28:46.640 And I had some concerns with the messaging up.
00:28:49.160 I thought, you know what?
00:28:49.640 He's 14.
00:28:50.740 It's PG-13.
00:28:52.480 I said, I'll take you and a buddy and spend $100 on tickets and popcorn.
00:28:56.940 If, when we're done, I said this to my son, if you'll just talk with me about it.
00:29:01.340 I want to know what you think.
00:29:02.160 He goes, sure, dad.
00:29:03.080 So I took him and his friend in the movie.
00:29:04.440 We'd come back, sit down at the dinner table.
00:29:05.920 And probably 30 minutes, Allie.
00:29:07.340 I just said, hey, what'd you think about the movie?
00:29:09.040 Did you enjoy it?
00:29:09.780 What was your favorite scene?
00:29:11.660 I said, as Christians, is there anything in this movie that we can agree with and we can
00:29:15.320 celebrate?
00:29:16.540 And I said, is there anything in this movie that gives you pause as a Christian?
00:29:21.080 Were there any times you felt this movie was preaching at you and it was just a meaningful
00:29:27.360 conversation amidst the relationship?
00:29:31.520 Those opportunities are there if we as parents will intentionally try to seek them out with
00:29:37.440 our kids.
00:29:38.000 Hmm, that's really good.
00:29:40.400 That's good encouragement because our kids are just, they're so curious from the youngest
00:29:45.380 ages.
00:29:46.000 And I've just, I've been so, I mean, blessed by, but just pleasantly surprised by also how
00:29:52.880 much young kids can understand, not fully, of course, but how much they memorize, how much
00:29:59.900 they soak up, how much they repeat what you say, whether you like it or not.
00:30:04.040 And I would say also just for parents, like challenge yourself and challenge your kids
00:30:09.960 to hide God's word in your heart.
00:30:11.360 You will be surprised by how much I think they want to and are also able to do that.
00:30:16.660 I think sometimes we underestimate how much our kids want to know and need to know.
00:30:21.340 And I think that's a, that's a comfort too, that God has written on eternity on their hearts
00:30:26.300 as well.
00:30:26.760 And they are seeking after those things.
00:30:30.640 Amen.
00:30:31.160 I think we have to talk with our kids early.
00:30:33.100 Just yesterday at breakfast alley, I was having breakfast with my 10 year old son and I said,
00:30:37.920 Hey buddy, I've been reading the book of Colossians.
00:30:39.720 And I got in a chapter one where it talks about how Jesus made everything visible and invisible.
00:30:46.360 So I said to my son, I said, do you think, what things can you think of that are real,
00:30:51.440 that are invisible?
00:30:53.440 Are numbers real?
00:30:55.460 Are angels real?
00:30:58.060 I said, what about moral values?
00:30:59.700 Keep in mind, my son is 10 and he didn't fully get it, but I'm engaging him in kind of a question
00:31:05.960 of metaphysics because in our culture today, we tend to think that only physical things you can
00:31:11.080 touch, taste and see are real.
00:31:14.100 I said, is history real?
00:31:16.300 I said, because God is not physical.
00:31:19.220 Is God real?
00:31:21.720 So then last night I was like, Hey, did you think of anything else that exists?
00:31:25.060 That's invisible.
00:31:26.020 Now it's not like my son sits there and goes, dad, let's talk metaphysics.
00:31:29.480 But I just look for these opportunities.
00:31:31.580 Most of our conversations are about the basketball playoffs or superheroes.
00:31:35.960 But I just look for these opportunities to engage him in conversation young.
00:31:42.220 In fact, two years ago, when we were driving in the car, my son, because when you're the
00:31:46.000 your youngest kid, whoever this is, will experience and hear things way earlier than your oldest
00:31:53.360 kid.
00:31:53.760 It's just the way it works.
00:31:54.680 And they have older siblings.
00:31:55.820 So we're driving the car.
00:31:56.860 My eight-year-old son goes, dad, what's abortion?
00:32:00.860 Now, a lot of parents would change the subject quickly.
00:32:03.940 And I thought in my mind, you know what?
00:32:06.460 Just like I said at the beginning of this conversation, these, the way we engage Gen Z
00:32:11.240 and others is an opportunity.
00:32:13.760 So I thought, here's an opportunity to talk with my son.
00:32:16.280 Now I've got to make it age appropriate.
00:32:18.460 But I said, great question, buddy.
00:32:20.980 Well, why do you ask first?
00:32:22.960 And then second, I said, sometimes women will get pregnant and decide they don't want to 1.00
00:32:27.980 keep the baby.
00:32:28.640 Why would a woman do that? 1.00
00:32:31.320 I started to walk him through it.
00:32:32.940 He goes, well, how does somebody do an abortion?
00:32:34.740 Now I'm thinking, okay, how do I explain this to an eight-year-old?
00:32:37.740 But the bottom line is these conversations start a lot earlier than we think.
00:32:42.380 Kids are curious.
00:32:44.140 And they're not going to you and me primarily with their questions.
00:32:47.180 They're going to TikTok.
00:32:48.200 They're going to Google.
00:32:50.380 Now they're going to chat GPT.
00:32:52.100 I want to build a relationship with my kids so they feel safe and eager and willing to
00:32:59.140 talk with me.
00:33:00.160 That's what I try to do.
00:33:01.960 Yes.
00:33:02.460 And one thing that we can do is equip ourselves, make sure that we know God's word and we don't
00:33:07.000 have to be perfect in knowing the answers to all the questions, but it is good for us
00:33:11.560 to explore those questions.
00:33:12.560 And that's what you help people do.
00:33:14.540 So is the best place for people to find you, your website, because you have authored or co-authored
00:33:20.780 over 20 books, you've got a podcast, Thinking Biblically, where else can people find resources
00:33:26.440 that you've provided?
00:33:28.480 So my website, seanmcdowell.org, is kind of the hub that links to the podcast, which is
00:33:33.680 a weekly podcast in which my co-host and I at Biola look at some worldview cultural issue
00:33:39.940 through a biblical lens.
00:33:41.360 Links to my YouTube channel, which is really focused on worldview and apologetics.
00:33:46.680 I'm on Twitter, Instagram, even have a TikTok.
00:33:50.880 My son, two years ago, he goes, Dad, if you want to reach my generation, you got to get
00:33:53.900 on TikTok.
00:33:54.500 So I post on TikTok, have a blog, but probably seanmcdowell.org is the hub that would link
00:34:01.580 to the different avenues that I'm trying to influence through.
00:34:05.820 Perfect.
00:34:06.400 Well, thank you so much for taking the time to come on.
00:34:08.540 This was very edifying and educating for me.
00:34:10.740 I know it will be too for my audience.
00:34:13.040 I encourage people to go to your website and find all the stuff that you provided over
00:34:17.000 the years.
00:34:17.380 It's really, really helpful.
00:34:18.560 Thank you so much.
00:34:20.280 Thanks for having me on, Allie.
00:34:21.560 Keep up the good work.
00:34:26.500 Hey, Relatables and Relatables, if you could please leave us a five-star review wherever
00:34:31.800 you listen to Relatable, that would mean so much to us and it really does help the show.
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00:34:42.440 Thanks.