Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 902 ｜ Kat Von D on Becoming a Christian

00:00:00.620 We are back from maternity leave. Relatable listeners, happy Monday. And we have a very

00:00:07.100 special guest for you today. We've got Kat Von D, the famous tattoo artist and musician. She is

00:00:13.540 here to share her testimony of how she recently in the last few years became a Christian. She

00:00:19.520 shared this beautiful video of her baptism, which received so much attention, mostly positive

00:00:26.700 attention, but a little bit of negative criticism as well. Let me play you a clip from the video

00:00:33.260 that she posted.

00:00:56.700 So today she is going to be sharing about her life and about her faith. And you are going

00:01:05.520 to absolutely love this conversation. Before we get into it, I have a couple of things to

00:01:09.860 say. Since it is Monday, let me tell you to do the next right thing in faith with excellence

00:01:15.600 and for the glory of God. That is the only thing that we can ever do in any given moment.

00:01:21.120 Let that be your mentality, your prayer this week, every second. Do the next right thing

00:01:27.240 in faith with excellence and for the glory of God. And speaking of that, friends, family,

00:01:33.840 related gals and related bros, we've got some new merch for you. It's really exciting. I'm

00:01:39.440 so excited about it. Look, if you're not watching on YouTube, you should watch on YouTube. This

00:01:44.340 is a crew neck sweatshirt. I'm so excited about it. It's like a rose color, which I think is

00:01:48.540 beautiful on the front of it. So this is similar to the shirts that we have also on the website.

00:01:54.120 It's AllieMerch.com, right? AllieMerch.com. Forgot it. I'm a little rusty. Do the next right

00:02:00.260 thing. And then it's got this with the in faith with excellence and for the glory of God on

00:02:06.600 the back. Super cute. This would be a great Christmas present related bros out there for

00:02:13.420 your wife or your significant other. And then we've got this. I don't know. It's a flower. It's

00:02:19.580 a son. It's a character. Right, Brie? Yep. I don't know. It's a cute little gal. And she is saying

00:02:26.360 raise a respectful ruckus. I don't know. I think it's really cute. I'm super excited to wear this.

00:02:31.900 I'll probably wear it tomorrow on the show. And then we've also got some like related bro color.

00:02:37.380 So we've got the navy and the yellow. Do the next right thing crew neck. And we've also got a black

00:02:42.340 and a white. And we've got one other color on the site for the crew necks. But great sweatshirt for

00:02:49.620 fall and for winter related gals and related bros. Don't forget Allie10. Allie10 is the discount code

00:02:56.620 for 10% off your order. So go to AllieMerch.com. You'll get 10% off your order with code Allie10.

00:03:05.680 Man, oh man, guys, we've got a ton to talk about. Not just today, but this week and until the end of

00:03:11.740 the year, I don't know how we're even going to catch up. We've got a lot of stuff that we'll be

00:03:15.500 talking about this week. Tomorrow is probably going to be like kind of a catch up show a little bit.

00:03:20.020 If you want to, I will talk about my birth story. So please send me a message. I know it's not for

00:03:25.620 everyone, but a lot of you do want that. So I'll at least talk about just like how the last few weeks

00:03:30.560 have been for me. And then on Wednesday, I am going to respond to the Andy Stanley sermon. I know

00:03:35.040 that's a little bit of old news. By now, we asked Pastor Andy Stanley to come on the show.

00:03:41.640 Unfortunately, he is not available to do so. So I will be responding to his LGBTQ sermon on the show

00:03:48.280 on Wednesday. And then Thursday, we are going to talk as much as we can about what's going on

00:03:52.820 between Israel and Hamas, Palestine. And I will try my best to give a biblical perspective on that.

00:04:04.140 There's so many aspects of it we won't be able to cover in one episode, but that's the plan for

00:04:08.380 the week unless something else happens. I'm so excited to be back. I missed you guys. I love

00:04:12.920 you guys. I'm so excited that this is the episode, the interview, the conversation that we are having

00:04:19.020 on the first non-maternity leave episode in many, many weeks. Thank you guys so much for listening and

00:04:26.720 for being here. All right. This episode, as always, is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:04:33.620 Just go to GoodRanchers.com and use code Allie for a discount. That's GoodRanchers.com, code Allie.

00:04:39.920 Okay. Without further ado, here is Kat Von D.

00:04:53.860 Kat Von D., thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

00:04:57.000 Yeah. Thanks for having me.

00:04:58.340 Okay. Your full name. Can you pronounce your last name for us?

00:05:00.980 Um, yeah. So my, my full name is Catherine Von Drakenberg or Drakenberg.

00:05:06.300 Oh, I like that. I like that.

00:05:08.320 It's very Dracula. Um, but a long time ago, a friend of mine, uh, just, you know, kind of dumbed

00:05:15.400 it down because it's very hard to pronounce. It's hard to read. So Kat Von D was a lot easier for

00:05:19.980 people. So it kind of stuck and became a bit of a nickname.

00:05:23.700 Yeah. It's worked out. It's worked out. Okay. So a lot of people, most people watching know who you

00:05:29.980 are. They know you maybe from LA Inc. That's what I originally know you from watching it on TLC a long

00:05:36.900 time ago. They know you from your makeup line. They know you from your music, lots of things.

00:05:40.560 Yeah.

00:05:40.760 They may be surprised that you are on the relatable podcast with Allie Beth Suckey. So first,

00:05:45.980 before we get into your story, can you talk about how we got connected?

00:05:50.940 Yeah, sure. And I will say, you know, the reason I wanted to come and talk to you is because I just

00:05:56.620 assumed that a majority of your followers and stuff might not know who I am either. And I love that you

00:06:02.760 have like a very large, like Christian, like faith based following. And that's who I want to talk to

00:06:09.080 right now versus like, you know, talking to my usual fans that I always talk to. But, um, but yeah,

00:06:15.040 we met, well, I've been following you for a long time, which you probably don't know. Um,

00:06:18.720 just stalking you on Instagram, but I, I, I love your podcast and been listening to it a lot. And

00:06:24.280 you actually like, um, helped me find a lot of the answers that I was looking for at the time.

00:06:29.660 And, and then I remember I DM'd you a few times about, um, like looking for a specific, I saw a

00:06:36.780 clip of like, uh, a debate that you had or a conversation that you had, uh, regarding like

00:06:42.060 Catholicism versus, um, baptism, baptism or Protestant. And so I was like, Oh, I really

00:06:48.060 want to see that. And I'm going to see if she'll, she'll see my DM. And then you did. And, um, and

00:06:52.240 then you, you know, you recommended a Bible, which I got, and I'm so grateful for because

00:06:55.620 it's really helped in my Bible studies. So, so I feel like, you know, we just kind of

00:06:59.720 connected through that.

00:07:01.460 Yeah. Yes. ESV study Bible. It also helps me so much with all the questions that I have.

00:07:06.860 Yeah. Um, yeah. So when you did your Instagram life, a lot of people reached out to me and

00:07:12.340 was like, Oh my gosh, you know, cat. And, um, I was so thankful that you messaged me and

00:07:17.640 I loved your baptism video, which we'll talk a little bit more about. And I really, I don't

00:07:22.720 think you know this, but I really wanted to ask you to come on the show after that, but

00:07:26.500 I didn't want you to think that I just wanted you for a guest on my show. And really like

00:07:33.960 I cared about our friendship and our, our back and forth that we were having. And so I

00:07:39.360 reached out to Bree and I was like, I really want to ask her, but I just don't want her

00:07:42.460 to think that I just want her for relatable. I want her to know that I really care about

00:07:46.720 her faith and her story, just like from a friend perspective. And so I have the same

00:07:51.740 feelings too. I was like, I want to ask her, but you know, I know she's on maternity leave

00:07:55.240 and I know what it was like. Like I took 40 days off after I had my baby. I was like,

00:07:59.700 I didn't talk to anybody. So it was like, I was very strict about that. And I'm like,

00:08:03.320 I don't want to be like, Hey, I know you've got like bigger fish to fry, but like, can we

00:08:07.780 talk? And so I was just so grateful that you were, you even made this happen. So.

00:08:11.700 Yes. And then, well, you reached out to me and you said something about it. Cause I'm

00:08:15.560 sure after the baptism video that you got a lot of requests for interviews. Did you?

00:08:21.220 I did. I'm sure from conservative and Christian media. And so that's the same thing. I was

00:08:25.520 thinking the same thing. I'm like, Oh my gosh, she probably has so many interview requests. So

00:08:28.460 I feel like God really did just bring it together. We reached out to me and asked to come on the

00:08:32.900 show. I was like, Oh my gosh, absolutely. So I'm so glad that we made it happen. And people are so

00:08:37.500 excited. So excited to hear the story. So before we even get into how you became a Christian,

00:08:42.500 I kind of want to go all the way back. So who is Kat Von D? How were you raised?

00:08:47.540 Um, well, I was born in Mexico, um, in 1982 and my, my parents are, they're missionary

00:08:55.780 Christians. They're both from Argentina, from South America. And so at the time of the birth

00:09:01.820 of me and my siblings, my, my dad was, uh, on a mission in a very tiny pueblito in the

00:09:07.380 middle of nowhere in Mexico called Monte Morelos. Um, it's in the state of Nuevo Leon, which

00:09:12.440 is about seven hours South of Texas. And he was building clinics in places that just didn't

00:09:17.420 have them. And my dad's a pretty inspiring guy. And so, um, we were born in a literal

00:09:23.820 third world country environment and had no idea. And it was one of the most abundant times

00:09:28.960 in our lives. You know, like our, I remember like the floors in our house were just packed

00:09:35.060 dirt. We had no running water, no electricity. And, um, I remember spending a crisp, like my

00:09:41.720 first memory of my first Christmas was on those dirt floors, opening up like a little homemade

00:09:45.860 present that my parents got us. And it was just, uh, an amazing time for me. When I think

00:09:50.600 about those years, it's like, uh, there's some of the best, best years of my childhood.

00:09:55.240 And hopefully I can kind of somehow give something like that to my son in this crazy wonky world

00:10:00.920 we live in now. But, um, so, so we were brought up obviously with God in our household. Um, you

00:10:08.920 know, we're, my parents were quite strict with that. And, um, you know, we moved to America

00:10:15.000 by the time I was six years old in Southern California. And, um, you know, I talked to my

00:10:22.420 pastor about it now because I ended up straying, you know, I ended up like being a pretty wild

00:10:29.500 teenager and leaving home at the age of 14 and running away and putting my, my parents

00:10:33.620 through, through a literal hell that I've made amends for now. But, um, yeah, uh, I had

00:10:41.600 a lot of questions as a kid and I don't think my parents were equipped with the answers.

00:10:46.580 And so that's like one of the things that I really, as a parent now that I really want

00:10:49.960 to be able to do with my son when he asks questions and I don't want to just be like,

00:10:54.980 oh, well, we just believe, you know, or, or it's just, uh, like, that's what faith is.

00:10:59.140 You just got to believe it. It's like, yeah, but I have legit questions. Like whether it's,

00:11:03.000 you know, elementary school level of dinosaur questions to, um, like what the resurrection

00:11:08.960 was and, and they didn't really have that. So I did go to Bible studies as like a child. Um,

00:11:14.420 like I remember up until my early teens, I had read the Bible twice, but I read it not really like

00:11:19.640 understanding or I just read words, you know, front to back. And so, um, yeah, sorry if I jump

00:11:26.680 around, you can always stop me. Um, but I ended up, uh, you know, uh, going astray in

00:11:33.700 a way. Like I, I, I think I discovered punk rock music at a very early age. And I don't

00:11:39.840 want to blame that for my decision to like walk away from God, but, um, because, because

00:11:46.020 in reality, I think that's what actually brought me back to God, but, um, was just this free

00:11:51.720 thinking mentality is like to question everything, especially authority.

00:12:07.340 And this was when you were kind of early teen, cause you said you ran away when you were how old?

00:12:11.220 14. Yeah. And so was this right around that time, but you kind of started questioning things.

00:12:16.280 Yeah. The punk rock world.

00:12:17.760 Yeah. And I kind of actually like resent, resented it too, because again, I didn't really have

00:12:21.900 certain understandings. I just went to church because that's what you do. Um, if you look

00:12:27.240 different than you don't belong here, like there, which is not, which is not how it should be. Um,

00:12:33.520 and so, yeah. Um, so it's not that I went around thinking about it, like going like, I'm an atheist

00:12:40.300 or I'm a this or anything. I just didn't care. I was just like, uh, I don't, I don't believe in

00:12:45.440 this. I don't like, you know, and then as I got into my twenties, I guess, like, um, I started

00:12:51.860 looking without knowing into like new age stuff, I guess. Uh, I will say this that like, after I posted

00:13:00.580 my baptism video, I saw like a lot of headlines and things. And I think people like to, especially

00:13:06.460 the media, they like to sensationalize stories and make them a lot more extreme than they really

00:13:10.180 are. Like I was never in a cult. I was never in a, uh, I was never a witch, like a self,

00:13:15.560 like a self-proclaimed witch or anything like that. Um, I was definitely not a Satanist, you know,

00:13:20.460 but I think it kind of reads more enticing when you, when you see like an extremeness of something.

00:13:25.860 I, I definitely, I know I look and dress like a villain, so it's easy to, to like be like, oh,

00:13:31.540 well this is an exceptional story, but I don't really have like a testimony that's like, I don't know,

00:13:36.440 I've heard a lot more inspiring testimonies than my own, but it's not that crazy, you know? But I

00:13:41.840 think that, um, I was just searching for answers and meaning in so many of the wrong places, like

00:13:52.300 most people do. And, um, I, I, uh, yeah, I think, um, I mean, I don't know if I should just jump to

00:14:02.740 where we are now because we can back up, let me back up a little bit. So you ran away when you

00:14:08.480 were 14, you put your parents through a lot as all teenagers do, but running away is obviously a big

00:14:13.680 deal. Um, and I read that you were sent to boarding school when you were 15, correct?

00:14:19.080 Kind of. Um, are you talking about like the, the, the Utah thing or, um, so, um, I ran away when I was

00:14:27.420 14. I came back and tried to work it out with my parents and you have to understand, you know,

00:14:31.700 I had like a Mohawk at the time I shaved my head. I started getting tattooed at the time.

00:14:36.220 So they were worried. This was a shock. And not to mention like my poor parents,

00:14:40.040 they're not Americanized by any means at this time. Like they're coming from a completely

00:14:44.060 different culture. They're really, they really believe like their child has been possessed by

00:14:48.200 a demon, you know? And which was not the case. I tried to explain that to my parents, but they,

00:14:52.700 you know, it's, it's a different generation. And, um, and, you know, I think there could have been

00:14:58.020 conversations that could have been had to help, but at the same time, I, I wouldn't change anything

00:15:05.760 because it's really what brought me to where I am now anyway. So, um, so yeah. Um, and then at,

00:15:12.960 at one point, my parents were pretty desperate to like fix me, you know, or fix whatever they thought

00:15:21.340 was wrong or help you. They probably thought that they were just trying to help you. If they thought

00:15:25.700 that you were possessed in some way or. Yeah. Or just worried, you know what I mean? Like at the

00:15:29.560 time you have to understand there wasn't any like TV shows that normalized tattoos or anything like

00:15:34.360 that. The only people getting tattooed back then were like, you were a gang member or a prostitute

00:15:37.880 or a drug addict. So like, and this was like mid nineties, right? Whatever you're that. Yeah. Yeah.

00:15:43.300 And so, uh, you know, my poor parents, uh, um, and so they sent me off to a school and I, I,

00:15:51.420 I don't really consider it a school. I think it was, it's, uh, like, um, I don't understand why

00:15:56.240 these institutions are even still legally, uh, you know, available to parents, but, um, I think

00:16:03.480 that's like for another podcast and basically it's just, uh, you know, this, these, uh, how would

00:16:10.140 you describe it? It's a, I call it a lockdown facility. You know, it's a, it's a place where

00:16:15.080 parents write off their rights to their child and put them in the hands of people with no

00:16:20.680 supervision. And, um, there was just a lot of abuse, not, not to me that thankfully I didn't

00:16:25.420 have to endure some of it. I think there was some mental abuse obviously, but nothing, um,

00:16:29.540 physical that I saw with other people there. And, uh, was it a religious institution or no?

00:16:34.300 It was, I, I don't, I wouldn't say it was religious, but the people that worked there were

00:16:38.880 all, um, it was in Utah. So they're all Mormons and, um, but they didn't like make us go

00:16:44.960 to their church or anything like that. Um, and no, it was just, I think honestly, it's

00:16:49.880 like a big scam where they just scam, like scared parents out of money. And I was there

00:16:53.720 for about six months. I lied my way out of there and then was taken to like another, like,

00:17:00.000 like kind of like a transitional boarding school, like situation. But at that point I started

00:17:05.020 drinking, um, and about 16, 17. Yeah. And so I started drinking, not for fun. I was for,

00:17:13.200 uh, to cope with probably some of the trauma. And I didn't understand that that was like kind

00:17:18.600 of the beginning of my addiction. And, um, I came back home, tried to work it out. It didn't

00:17:23.600 really work out at that point. Both my parents and I like agreed, this isn't good for any of us.

00:17:28.400 You should probably go, go on your own. And so I had already started tattooing at that point.

00:17:33.320 And, um, I was making a lot of good money for a teenager and living in really rough areas.

00:17:39.060 Were you in LA? Yeah, I was in, I was outside of LA in San Bernardino, which is about an hour and a

00:17:44.820 half, two hours with traffic. And, and yeah, so, um, and then I fell in love with tattooing,

00:17:52.160 you know, I, I really saw that as a calling. Um, I was good at it. I was good at people. I was a good

00:17:59.100 listener and, um, and I was an artist, so it just, you know, worked, worked out. And, um,

00:18:07.200 and then I just like started quickly kind of outgrowing the, the, the little ponds that I was

00:18:12.000 in. And so I jumped to like another tattoo shop with more experienced artists. And, and then I

00:18:16.960 made my way towards Los Angeles and, um, yeah. And I guess, yeah, from there, I just, I got, I got

00:18:25.580 on TV, I guess. Yeah. When did you do that you had artistic talent? Since I was, I can remember.

00:18:31.200 Yeah. Yeah. Um, my parents, we were very, you know, we were not well off at all. I don't,

00:18:35.880 I don't come from money. So, um, I remember going to church and like being bored out of my mind and

00:18:41.480 like during the sermon, you know, as a child on the floor, just drawing, I would take the tithe

00:18:45.080 envelopes and open them up and, and take the little pencils that were in the pews. Yeah. And just start

00:18:50.360 drawing. And I really gravitated towards realism. I loved drawing people. Like I would draw my family

00:18:56.280 members or, um, if I saw a pretty girl in a magazine, I would, I loved facial structure and,

00:19:02.000 um, kind of try to reproduce that with my human abilities. Yeah. And you're also a classically

00:19:07.480 trained pianist. Yeah. My grandmother was a pianist. So she started training us when I was five.

00:19:13.200 So you, like you said, you jumped to bigger and bigger ponds, got closer to LA as a tattoo artist.

00:19:31.420 At this point, you're like late teens, early twenties. Yeah. Yeah. And when, how old were you

00:19:36.460 when LA Inc. started? So I first got on a show called Miami Inc. And I was, um, 20, barely 21 or so.

00:19:46.360 And I was, uh, at this point, a full blown alcoholic. I was drinking all the time. I was, um,

00:19:53.740 I got introduced to drugs at that point, but I was functioning. So, uh, like somehow I miraculously

00:20:01.000 like showed up to work every day and I did a great job, you know? And then, but behind that was just,

00:20:05.920 um, you know, this growing addiction. And, uh, I did Miami Inc. for as long as I could,

00:20:14.020 uh, as long as I contractually had to, because it was very, a very miserable experience.

00:20:18.660 And, um, you know, I had, I had signed the contract while I was drunk without a lawyer or

00:20:24.320 anything like that. And I had no idea that I had signed away the rights to my name and my likeness

00:20:28.720 and my art and everything I created. And so to nullify that contract, um, I was offered,

00:20:33.500 I was offered to do LA Inc. And so I didn't want to, I just wanted to get away from whatever

00:20:40.320 that whole process was. I never, I wasn't the type of person that was like, I want to

00:20:45.020 be on TV and I want to be famous. I just like love tattooing and I wanted to be a good representation

00:20:48.760 of the industry that I was in. And, um, but the people that, you know, I was casted with,

00:20:55.800 we just didn't, um, get along. And so I was like kind of forced to be with people that didn't

00:21:02.120 respect me or whatever. Yeah. So I signed the contract for LA Inc. and, um, and opened

00:21:08.220 up my shop in LA and I had that shop for about 12 years. So, but we filmed the show for another

00:21:14.880 39 episodes or something like that. Yeah. And you said at this time, mid twenties, you kind

00:21:20.140 of got into the new age. You were still an alcoholic at this point, right? Yeah. And I wasn't

00:21:24.100 like full blown into it, but I was like, you know, I think I was a seeker. So, but, but

00:21:28.920 nothing, I wasn't, I wasn't really actively pursuing any belief system. Yeah. I just was,

00:21:36.080 um, sad, you know, I was drinking and I was trying to find, um, answers in the wrong places.

00:21:42.720 And it wasn't until I got sober, which is, it'll be 17 years ago in July that I, um, you

00:21:51.020 know, really opened up my eyes to wanting to fix myself. And that's when I started getting

00:21:57.320 into a lot of the new age stuff, like a lot of self-help books, you know, that's kind

00:22:01.800 of, that was kind of like the gateway into it. Like law of attraction type stuff or not

00:22:06.380 really? No, I was like into, and I mean, I don't want to obviously like dis any like

00:22:10.540 authors or anything, but just like, um, like into meditation, a lot of meditation and, um,

00:22:19.420 and spiritual. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, so yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't like, I was like, I'm going

00:22:25.240 to go sell my soul or anything like that. I honestly, like, um, Satan is not on the radar

00:22:29.460 for me. Uh, when I got sober, I didn't go to AA. I, I read the big book, which I loved.

00:22:35.620 And I, I still love that book. I feel like, um, I do have notes, but like, you know, I

00:22:41.800 think, I think in, in general, like doing a 12 step for everybody, everybody would benefit

00:22:46.940 from, you know, doing your inventory and making amends and doing all that stuff. That was very

00:22:51.460 helpful for me. Um, you know, they really talk about having a higher power and that's

00:22:55.580 the part where I'm like, Oh, I feel like you're missing the God part. Cause like, you know,

00:22:59.120 they, they won't like have a, uh, like they don't ever talk about your, your higher power

00:23:03.480 can be this cactus in the corner, you know, it can be, um, Ozzy Osbourne or something,

00:23:07.560 you know, it's not, whereas like for me, I feel like, um, I've been sober for a long

00:23:13.040 time, but I don't feel like I was free from all until I found God, you know? And I, I feel

00:23:17.520 like, um, that would be so cool if, I mean, whatever, I'm not going to really dis on the AA

00:23:23.060 program because it helps a lot of people. But, um, so yeah, I think that's when I just

00:23:27.620 started looking into, um, that type of literature and, and then I started learning about transcendental

00:23:35.460 meditation and I was like, Oh, like it was always these very like short lived band-aids

00:23:41.540 on a sinking ship, you know, that's kind of how I see it. It's like, uh, Oh, this feels

00:23:46.300 really good. And I'm like, so at peace. And I've like been able to like, um, you know,

00:23:50.700 I'd have anxiety at the airport and I'd go into the bathroom and like say my mantra and

00:23:55.100 then, um, and I'll be fine. It's like, but it's, it was these crutches, you know?

00:23:59.820 Right. So now I'm going to fast forward to like the first post that I ever made about

00:24:04.040 talking about like throwing away my, my occult books. Yeah. And I think that everybody kind

00:24:09.300 of honed in my fans included, um, on the witchcraft books, cause there was a lot more of those

00:24:14.780 and there was the others, but I actually threw away all my meditation books, all my books on

00:24:19.620 yoga, all my, like, it wasn't just the, the, the stuff that people considered spooky, which,

00:24:25.440 you know, I don't think some of it is, but, um, and, and I think that it's easier to look

00:24:31.340 at like a story, like what I wrote and, and mind you, I prayed a lot about that post prior

00:24:36.720 to doing it. Um, like I spent time on writing that caption because I knew the intentions behind

00:24:43.300 it were to like start being able to talk about where I'm at in life, you know? And that was

00:24:48.940 what, 2020? Yeah. Or so. I think so. Yeah. And, uh, and it was such an, so, so I posted

00:24:56.260 this post on Instagram where I just took a picture of, um, a good chunk of these books

00:25:01.660 that I took from my library. I have a library of like three to 500 books. And so this was

00:25:05.520 a very small, like a small amount of books out of that collection that I just wanted to get

00:25:11.020 rid of. Like it, I don't want to say that they were haunting me, but it's like, I already

00:25:14.360 knew they were there. I have my son who's growing up and is becoming curious. And it's like, um,

00:25:19.880 you know, there were some art books I threw away too, that weren't in that picture that

00:25:22.600 were like, I don't know if I want my kid to look at that, you know? Like, um, and, but

00:25:27.380 to me, it was like, I came to this really awesome realization that, that night that I, that

00:25:32.320 I, um, decided to post that was that like, I don't want these crutches in my life anymore,

00:25:37.800 you know? And that's what I really saw them as is like, okay, like,

00:25:41.400 um, I just want Jesus. And it's a very narrow, a narrow road, right? Like, I feel like all these

00:25:49.220 other, like these breathing techniques or these, um, or like spell work or whatever, like, um,

00:25:56.820 nature worship, all these things, it's like, um, they're just crutches. They're not really like

00:26:02.220 my answer. And so for me, I would rather eliminate any distractions. And this is just

00:26:08.040 what works for me, you know? So that was like, it was a symbolic gesture, I guess, in a way, but it

00:26:14.780 was, it was my first like proclaiming of where I stand with certain things. And it was crazy to

00:26:21.520 watch the reaction because in the comments, it was like, I literally, I feel like you could see

00:26:26.940 literal demons hissing at each other. And, um, and it was coming from both sides, you know, from people

00:26:33.480 that were like, oh, I don't think Aleister Crowley is evil or, um, or Hey, like, why would you throw

00:26:38.360 this away? You should give them to people like, that's so wasteful or whatever, or there's nothing

00:26:43.200 wrong with what I see in these pictures. And then there would be the Christians that are like

00:26:46.280 attacking and kind of saying, saying equally as evil things too, you know, that weren't helping

00:26:52.240 anybody. And, um, and that night, um, I feel like two people came to my house. So at the time we lived

00:27:01.040 in LA and we had a gated house and I was upstairs with my son and the doorbell rang and we had like a

00:27:07.120 security system and my husband looks and it was, uh, he screenshotted it and it was just this

00:27:12.160 possessed person, you know, who just was like, hi, um, you know, I, I don't want to freak you out,

00:27:20.220 but I'm just, I just want to know if I could please have those books, you know, like I really need those

00:27:24.260 books. I need those books. And it was just like, and you could see the, the darkness in this eye and

00:27:29.440 like, like why I think like when I say things, I, I, I definitely think that people over, over

00:27:37.920 over spiritualize. No, I just, I just think a lot of people, especially in the Christian community,

00:27:43.600 like call everything demonic and I don't think everything is demonic. Like, um, but in this

00:27:49.600 case, I was like, I think this is a definition of a demon. Like this person is possessed and is no

00:27:55.280 longer in control of what they would normally do because a, they're obsessed either with fame or

00:28:00.420 with the desire to, to bring certain evils into your life. You know, I think that's crazy. You

00:28:08.020 know, my, my husband ushered him away. Then the second person came and they tried to break into

00:28:11.640 our trash cans, which I had already thrown, huh? To get the books. Yeah. Yeah. Which were all readily

00:28:18.020 available online anyway. I mean, I did have like first editions of stuff, but like, but it's like,

00:28:22.780 what is it in you? That's like, so, um, desperate for, you know, like, again, trying to find these

00:28:30.580 answers in the wrong places, a literal trash can, you know? And it, it kind of was like a very like

00:28:36.660 sobering moment for me because I was like, man, like this, uh, I don't want to have anything to do

00:28:40.960 with this anymore. So in 2020, when you posted that, you said that you saw those as crutches

00:28:59.300 and all you wanted was, was Jesus. So at that point you were a Christian. Yeah. Oh yeah. Okay.

00:29:03.960 So when did that happen? Probably like a year before that. A year before that. So let's talk

00:29:07.640 about that a little bit. How did, how did you become a Christian out of the world of just kind

00:29:12.640 of spiritualism? So funny, it was funny enough. I kind of blame my husband or give him the credit.

00:29:18.640 Um, he, it was during like right before, uh, right when the lockdowns happened, um, was I came

00:29:28.040 downstairs and he just said, Hey babe, I think we got it wrong. You know, I think we got a lot of things

00:29:32.080 wrong. And I was like, no, no, you know? And I'm, I was never like a politically charged person. I

00:29:38.280 would say, um, like ignorant political things just out of like, uh, you know, cause I don't watch TV.

00:29:43.180 I don't like really know. I mean, I would see like whatever my friends would post or things like

00:29:48.600 that, but I was never like, I couldn't tell you who's an office or anything like that, you know,

00:29:53.380 at the time. And then, so my husband was like, Hey, like I want, I want to show you some stuff,

00:29:58.200 you know, like it would be some articles and some videos and stuff. And I was like, Oh man, like

00:30:02.240 I really got to start rethinking a lot of things that I thought were true, you know? And that was

00:30:07.820 kind of the first step into questioning everything I had been doing. Yeah. Um, was it mostly, we don't

00:30:13.000 have to get into the details on this, but like the stuff that he was showing you, did it, cause you

00:30:17.420 said it was around the lockdowns. Yeah. Was it mostly regarding that kind of thing or was it more

00:30:23.300 theological in nature, the things that he was talking about? I, no, it was like revolving

00:30:28.020 more around like political things. And, um, and you know, you have to understand at that time,

00:30:33.380 like, like BLM was going hard and in LA and I was in the middle of it. Like I lived three doors down

00:30:38.760 from the mayor of LA. So we had Antifa like on our front yard, you know, after they threatened to

00:30:44.500 like do the maltaf cocktails and stuff like that. And like, you know, so we were just like seeing

00:30:49.880 things in real time and, and they were much worse in real life than I think what people even put

00:30:54.880 on TV. And so, so I was like, man, maybe like, you know, so I started just kind of like

00:30:59.960 reevaluating, kind of going down the list of what I'm doing with my life and like what my

00:31:05.500 perspectives are. And then it got to the part of like my spirituality. And that's where I started

00:31:10.380 really rethinking a lot of things. And so I, um, I think a friend had sent me a sermon from

00:31:19.560 pastor Jack Hibbs and I, I loved it. Like it really spoke to me and, and like it answered

00:31:25.900 a lot of questions that I had. And so then I started that my, my, my son at the time was

00:31:30.880 like still a baby. So I wasn't going to church, but I would, we would watch like sermons every

00:31:35.760 Sunday. And, um, and so that was kind of like, I just desired more and more and more. And so

00:31:42.260 I just started studying the Bible and, um, and it was like, I think it was, um, it's, it's

00:31:50.360 so cool to be able to do it as an adult. You know, I think like, I was very lucky that I

00:31:55.320 had parents that were Christian and for certain things at a time when I couldn't understand

00:32:01.220 things, even though it wasn't as effective. Like I do credit my dad for everything because

00:32:07.000 I remember finding myself in very dark moments and like intuitively I was praying, you know,

00:32:14.180 and it wasn't because, um, my dad made me like, it was because I, he was, cause, cause he'd

00:32:20.580 been waiting. That's all, you know? And so like when you can fall in love and learn as an adult,

00:32:27.840 it's so much more meaningful and real than it is when you're a child just doing it because

00:32:34.600 this is what we do, you know, and this is, um, this is how we do it, you know? So, um, so I mean,

00:32:41.240 I'm like, I'm on fire for Jesus. Like I, I, I don't plan on this dimming out. Like the more and

00:32:47.440 more I learn, the more and more excited I get about things and the more at ease I am about what's

00:32:52.180 happening in this world and what's happening, um, like, uh, in my marriage or in, you know,

00:32:58.340 and all of it. So, um, so I w I do want to go back though, to like the, the occult stuff because,

00:33:04.680 um, I don't want to say occult stuff, but like, you know, just like the, like the tarot cards and

00:33:10.280 all that stuff, like, you know, not to diss any of my friends because I have a lot of friends that

00:33:15.540 are into that stuff and I love them so much, you know? Um, I have actually more empathy and

00:33:20.600 understanding than I think an average person cause I've been there, but like, but I will say that

00:33:26.280 and my husband and I, we look at our, the roll decks of friends that we have and

00:33:30.040 the ones that are dictating their life through that. And they're making life decisions through

00:33:35.780 tarot or through, um, you know, some of the witchcraft stuff, like, uh, even the meditations

00:33:42.460 or like, you know, and I'm probably, I'm going to definitely offend a lot of people, but like

00:33:47.320 the ayahuasca trips or the, the meditation caps and silent retreats, all the things that I used to do,

00:33:53.780 except I never did ayahuasca, but like, they're also miserable. Yeah. And like, they're the most

00:33:59.720 broke people. Usually most of them are single. They don't have stability. And I'm talking about

00:34:04.660 like both financial and like the love around them. Right. There's always this, this drama and dread

00:34:10.920 and doom and gloom. And I was one of them, you know? And it's like, that's one thing that I would

00:34:16.780 look around at my Christian friends and I'm like, they're not perfect by any means, but I want what you

00:34:22.420 have, you know, like, I love the light that you have. And it's like, um, so, so, you know, we're

00:34:29.900 like, let's not be dummies anymore. And let's just like, figure out what this, like, this obviously

00:34:33.440 hasn't worked for us, you know, let's like explore this. And so that's kind of like my whole perspective

00:34:39.280 on it. I don't, I, you know, I think, um, again, like I have no intentions of cutting off my friends

00:34:45.200 that I don't necessarily agree with or, um, you know, don't see things the same way. I don't think

00:34:51.400 Jesus would either. And so it's like, cause I do, I, I, I got a lot of criticism after I posted that

00:34:57.380 baptism video. And, um, I think that like Christians, um, you know, when you do that, you don't realize

00:35:09.520 how much harm you're doing, you know, like I would look at a lot of the comments that I got, um,

00:35:14.980 and it was, they were really cruel and very, very, um, annoyingly holier than thou. And I would look

00:35:22.300 at some of them and say, okay, let's look at like, what is to be gained from this comment? Like, who

00:35:27.760 does it help like to be a know-it-all? Like, who does it help? Does it help me? Does it help all my

00:35:33.680 other followers following and, and like witnessing the, the judgment and the criticism and, and,

00:35:40.800 and definitely of not knowing the other person, you know, like everyone's like, oh, well, she's a

00:35:44.120 baby Christian. So, you know, you should get cut her some slack. It's like, I'm not a baby Christian.

00:35:48.240 I mean, I, yeah, I just recently got baptized, but like, I'm not like, this didn't happen yesterday.

00:35:54.480 Like I have an understanding of, of a lot of the things that people are talking about. Like,

00:35:58.500 I'm not going to dress like how you think I'm going to dress. Like nothing's changing in that

00:36:02.280 department. Like even like with like the, you know, the music that I make or, or some of the

00:36:07.660 content that I make, it's like, it's not, it's not for you. You know, it's not, it's not for you.

00:36:12.060 You have no idea how many DMS that I got from like other goth kids that are in the same boat as I was.

00:36:17.900 They're going, man, I'm at this crossroad and I want to go back to church, but like,

00:36:21.620 um, I don't have a church to go to. Or I feel like, like even within my own family unit, people

00:36:26.960 have like, I'm an outcast and like, and I'm trying to make my way back to Jesus. But like these

00:36:32.180 people, you know, like thank you for doing that, you know? And it's like, so I don't have any

00:36:37.740 intention on like, like conforming to what somebody's like uniform or what their idea of

00:36:45.420 darkness is, you know, because I don't, I don't think I'm a dark person. I have, I wear dark clothes,

00:36:50.760 but like, I, like people's like definition of darkness is a lot different, you know, like,

00:36:56.420 like what's dark to you might not be to me. Like, I'm not, I don't, I'm not scared of death.

00:37:01.260 Like I talk about it all the time. My entire career was based on that. You know, I tattooed

00:37:05.220 portraits of dead people on their loved ones for decades. And like, so I've read every grieving

00:37:11.100 book. I've read every bereavement book I've read, like, you know, that's, I think death is something

00:37:16.520 that like, we should be able to talk about. And, you know, when I see a skull, I don't think like,

00:37:22.380 oh, that's demonic. I just, it's just not for me. But if it triggers you spiritually, then

00:37:27.100 keep scrolling, you know, like, or don't listen to my music or whatever it is. But,

00:37:31.300 but I think that like the, the amount of like critical Christians on my Instagram now have

00:37:39.940 become such a, a turnoff to people who are actually seeking God that like, I had to just

00:37:46.240 block and delete. Like, even if it's good stuff, I just like, if people talk about, I just, this is

00:37:51.820 not for you, you know? And it's like, you end up pushing people away. And like, the one person

00:37:58.380 that I think about through all this is my husband, you know, because when we got together, we were

00:38:02.800 both not Christian, you know, we got married and then he's really helped me without knowing find my

00:38:11.120 way. And he's not necessarily on the same page. I mean, in some ways he is, you know, he's very

00:38:15.940 supportive. We go to church together, you know, every, every Sunday, my, he always supports me.

00:38:20.580 We pray together, but there's parts of him that's still questioning. And like, after that,

00:38:26.860 getting so much grief from people that spilled over into my husband, he was like, I remember the

00:38:34.060 next morning, he was like, babe, I don't want to be a part of that. You know? And it like,

00:38:39.100 I'm trying not to get emotional because it's like, I've been working for years, like trying to like

00:38:44.340 lead by example and share what I, you know, the, the step, my own stepping stones with him to like,

00:38:50.580 hopefully one day he can come to me and say, Hey, guess what? Like I've given my heart to Jesus.

00:38:54.240 That hasn't happened yet. But when you, when you have like an entire community of people,

00:38:59.020 like attacking you, like, man, like you're, you know, not to say that my husband is like,

00:39:05.520 you know, going to do something based on a comment on Instagram, but when it's getting amplified so

00:39:10.060 much, like it turns people off, you know, and not everyone's like that. You know, like our church

00:39:15.120 is amazing. Like the first day we went, um, you know, my husband didn't want to go. He's like,

00:39:20.540 do I have to go? And I'm like, yeah, you have to go. Like, that's going to be a rule now, you know?

00:39:24.580 And you know, my, when we moved to Indiana, I was like, our first mission is to find our church,

00:39:29.940 you know? And like, it's, it might take us a year, it might take us a week, but we got to just try.

00:39:34.100 And I had a list of Baptist churches that I wanted to explore. And the first one.

00:39:37.860 Why Baptist? Sorry to interrupt you, but I'm just curious about that.

00:39:41.440 Um, well, I mean, I'm not too much into denominations either, but I feel like when I

00:39:46.840 look at the breakdown of like their approach to scripture is just like aligns with what, you know,

00:39:56.020 like what I feel. So, um, yeah. I mean, I'm for it, obviously. I'm supportive as a lifelong

00:40:02.640 Baptist myself, but I just was curious about that. Okay. Yeah. And I wasn't born into a Baptist church.

00:40:07.380 So it's like, you know, I think like, to me, it was, it's cool to be able to, um, like I said,

00:40:12.260 as an adult, have an understanding. And I looked at things like, there's things about, um, you know,

00:40:18.240 uh, you know, I'm seeking more traditionalism. Like I don't, um, like when it comes to my worship,

00:40:28.660 this is just for me, it's like, I, I want to worship. Like, I don't want to go to a concert. I don't want to,

00:40:34.760 um, I don't like, like I dress, we, we all dress nice when we go to church. That's just our own

00:40:40.280 personal thing. Like, this is a sacred space. And like, I, um, like that's how, how I do it. And I

00:40:47.700 feel like, um, other, other outlets and stuff, like just didn't really align with, um, with what,

00:40:56.300 what, what I'm looking for, you know, but so, so I feel like God just like spit me out in,

00:41:02.300 like on the doorsteps of the most perfect church for us. And we go in there and there's,

00:41:06.760 you know, it's a very small congregation. It's, it's a lot of old people. And, um,

00:41:12.260 they, my parents were always late as, as a kid. So I have anxiety about being late. I do not like

00:41:16.660 being late. And so I was like, all right, well, I got there too early. And they were,

00:41:19.860 we interrupted their prayer circle and these people just stood up and embraced us. And, um,

00:41:26.900 they were just, they didn't really care about who people think we are. You know, they were just

00:41:32.460 like, Oh yeah, you're the lady that bought the house down the street. And we've been, we've actually

00:41:35.900 been praying for you. And like, um, and so then I was like, okay, well, let's try this, this out.

00:41:40.720 Cause it's like, you know, I want to see if, if what, what the pastor's all about pretty much.

00:41:45.600 Like, I, I want to learn about the Bible. Like, I don't want like necessarily feel good stories or,

00:41:50.600 you know, like, like I'm here to learn. And so, and then, you know, pastor Brian is like,

00:41:54.860 um, that's, that's what he's all about. So, so I was like, man, I can't believe that,

00:42:00.720 you know, we got lucky and found this place so quickly and we love it. And so my husband

00:42:06.160 responds to that. And like, you know, we, um, he's, he's learning in his, in his own,

00:42:13.940 you know, on his own path and his own way. And our, you know, um, so that's been good. But then

00:42:20.140 I feel like when we step out of that, our, that place, like that's when it becomes like

00:42:25.660 triggering for him, you know, and, um, you're in a unique position because you have such a large

00:42:31.200 audience that you are going to attract the, you know, extremes of anything just by being a person

00:42:40.500 on the internet. Um, I do want to talk about the baptism video a little bit just for some people

00:42:45.520 who may have missed that. And we talked about it a little bit in the introduction, but, um,

00:42:50.980 you posted this beautiful, beautifully artistic baptism video. Is that your actual church?

00:42:56.160 Yeah. The building. It's beautiful. Thank you. Um, it is beautiful. And like you said,

00:43:00.780 you received, well, you received a lot of, um, positivity, a lot of positivity, but then you

00:43:05.820 said that you received some criticism and you talked a little bit about the holier than now kind

00:43:10.020 of self-righteous comments that you got, but specifically what were they criticizing you for?

00:43:15.440 Or was it like, this is not genuine? Yeah. So there's a lot of it. There was, I mean, like

00:43:21.040 it went from, well, her hand wasn't like completely submerged into water. So this is fake or it doesn't

00:43:30.220 count. That kind of stuff. I've never heard that. Yeah. Like you have to be fully submerged,

00:43:35.540 but like, you know, I was holding onto pastor Brian's hands when, you know, and I weigh 150

00:43:40.800 pounds. Like he's like an older gentleman. Like I was like, thankful he didn't drop me or whatever,

00:43:44.980 you know? So, but, and then other people were like, um, she's faking it. This is just for a PR

00:43:49.960 stunt. And, uh, and like, um, you know, I didn't, um, you weren't there, you know, it's like people

00:44:00.400 weren't there. And like, uh, there was one recently that, that I saw that was, and I, I, like I said,

00:44:06.160 I typically do not respond to just block and delete, but one of them I responded to recently

00:44:09.740 because it was just so crappy, just like who would say this, but right before I went into the water,

00:44:17.780 my, so, so I joined the church choir and, um, I wanted to sing my tribute, this song called my

00:44:25.600 tribute. And, um, on that day. And so I sang that with my choir and my dad plays the trumpet and,

00:44:31.580 um, he ended up doing a trumpet version of my tribute as when I was in the back getting ready

00:44:39.060 to go in the water. So I was already crying before we even went in. And, um, and so the whole entire

00:44:45.420 time, you know, I'm listening to pastor Brian when he's saying, and the whole world was disappeared.

00:44:52.280 And I'm in this water with, um, with my pastor. And then he calls me his sister in Christ. And I

00:44:58.680 just, the whole time I was just fighting tears, you know? And so in the video, I'm doing this,

00:45:04.140 like, you know, and so, and somebody was like, look, she's just laughing the whole time. Like

00:45:08.420 it's fake. And I was like, man, you know, you're no fun. Like I just like people, like, what are you

00:45:14.840 guys? Cause I don't have that within me when I'm, when I'm on Instagram, like I see plenty of stuff

00:45:20.060 that I don't like, or that I don't agree with, or that I think is silly or, I just don't care,

00:45:26.700 you know, but to somebody to like rain on somebody's like, I like, you don't, it's so

00:45:32.560 looking for something. It's so crazy. But you know, I, I also, I'm not an idiot. I knew that

00:45:38.040 when I posted that video that people would have questions. And I also knew like the moments leading

00:45:43.800 up to it, it wasn't like, um, it wasn't planned, you know, I strategically like, um, you know, I, I,

00:45:51.880 I hired a camera guy, you know, I wanted to, to me this, I, I've been documenting my life since I was

00:45:56.220 20. And I, this was one of the most important days of my life. Like I want to document it just

00:46:03.580 like I would document my wedding, you know, and to share it with, with the world, it was intentional.

00:46:09.480 You know, it's like, I've, um, I mean, there, there's, there's the symbolic gesture of baptism,

00:46:17.260 but there's also a part for me is like a bit of a making amends with, with my followers, because,

00:46:24.920 um, for so many years I've been putting out a certain message that, um, that makes me sad that I

00:46:32.340 was ever even a part of, you know? And so to, to like publicly proclaim this was, um,

00:46:39.480 was me setting some things right, you know, and this just is for me, you know, it has nothing to

00:46:44.240 do with, um, you know, my church isn't involved in that thought process, you know, but, um, it was

00:46:49.320 important to me to share that, you know, because I could have just kept it to myself and just kept

00:46:52.800 going on. But I was like, no, this is something I want to celebrate. And I want to be like open and

00:46:57.040 honest about it. And I don't plan on being, um, evangelical in a sense of like, like posting

00:47:05.800 about my faith or, um, you know, like, to be honest that outside of talking to you, I really

00:47:12.680 don't plan too much to talk about it. And that's just my own, like where I'm at with it. You know,

00:47:20.900 I feel like, like, uh, there are some people that, that have the gift of that, you know, like,

00:47:27.260 like my pastor or like you and, um, like pastor Jack Hibbs or whatever. And I think that there's

00:47:33.740 some people that like, can be quiet witnesses and that's me, you know, like I do better like

00:47:39.900 one-on-one with people. And I feel like now that I've like come out and shared where I stand with

00:47:48.760 my faith. Like if somebody DMs me or if someone on the street comes up to me or talks to me or one

00:47:53.980 of my friends, which this has already happened says, Hey, like, I want to know more about this,

00:47:57.640 like totally cool, but I'm not going to be like, um, you know, pounding on everybody's like front

00:48:05.420 door. It's just not, that's just not, I'm Amish about it. Yeah.

00:48:18.760 Okay. So I do want to ask a couple of questions that some people might have, and this is just as

00:48:26.940 someone who has never been in the punk rock world. It's a totally different world than most of my

00:48:33.440 audience is familiar with me too. Yeah. So, um, like you said, your style is your style. The kind

00:48:41.560 of music that you play is the kind of music that you play. Some people who are, you know, just totally

00:48:47.300 outside of that world. They will look at something like vampires or black or whatever it is or, or

00:48:54.720 Marilyn Manson or things like that. And it's, it's scary and it does feel dark. And so I think some

00:49:02.700 people have the question of like, Oh, how can you hang out? How can you like run in these circles and

00:49:07.240 like be promoting things that do seem ghastly or, you know, deathly or whatever. And so kind of,

00:49:14.100 how do you approach that? Yeah. I mean, there's different, so there's a few parts to that. I

00:49:18.260 think like, um, you know, like I've listened to all of your episodes on, um, like Halloween and

00:49:24.520 stuff like that. Um, I think like as somebody, like, this is an easy way to explain it for me is

00:49:31.200 like, uh, I'm sober, you know, I, I used to do drugs and drink and I no longer do that. Um, I can be

00:49:37.480 around it and not be tempted, but I choose not to be around it. Like the, especially the drug stuff,

00:49:43.380 you know, like, I, like if, if you're doing drugs in front of me, I'll, I'll, I'll leave. Like,

00:49:47.780 it's just not my thing. Um, it's a, it's a trigger for me or whatever. I don't even like that word,

00:49:52.420 but you know, um, whereas there's, I have friends of mine that they can have a glass of wine on the

00:49:58.860 weekend and they're still in control of themselves. Like, and they're not, um, you know,

00:50:04.260 abusing it. Like I was, you know, like I personally cannot have one drink, one drop of tequila or I

00:50:10.740 will destroy my life and everything around it. That's just how it is for me. And so I think like

00:50:15.280 when it comes to things like Halloween or like, you know, like I said, I don't like using the term

00:50:21.600 dark stuff. Cause I don't really consider it dark, but, um, but like, if it triggers you,

00:50:25.940 then just don't participate in it. Like, you know, if it doesn't trigger you, I feel very sound in my

00:50:31.540 faith. Like, I don't, I'm not going to be swayed by my neighbor to, um, become, to join a cult. I'm

00:50:38.920 just, I'm just not, you know? Um, but I think when it comes to music and I've been thinking so much

00:50:44.180 about this lately, because I don't, you know, you have to bear with me because I'm still kind of,

00:50:48.420 um, refining how I think about it, but like, like secular music, you know, like I listened to

00:50:53.860 secular music. I do not listen to worship music. Like, um, I, I like to sing it in church. And when I'm

00:51:00.840 singing hymns at church, like I, I, it's, it's a whole different experience than when I listened

00:51:06.580 to, um, you know, the cure or whoever, Depeche Mode, whoever I'm listening to, you know, it's,

00:51:12.320 it's like a, a different process, you know? So I went to like a big church when I was in California,

00:51:21.980 um, recently, and, um, I'd never been to a church like that before. And I loved the sermon. I loved the

00:51:29.000 message. The people were so nice and great and everything, but I will say I didn't like,

00:51:32.940 I, I couldn't enjoy the song part of it, you know, like both my husband, I looked at it was like,

00:51:38.940 it just didn't feel, it feels weird to us. Like, it feels like we're watching a concert. I'm watching

00:51:42.620 somebody sing a song. And because I know how to write a pop song, I'm like, I, all I'm thinking

00:51:47.500 of is the songwriting session that it took to get to this and like the emotional cues and then the

00:51:52.800 repetitiveness of it, the drop. And then here comes this. And it's just like, I don't, it doesn't,

00:51:57.220 and everybody was singing along. I'm like, okay. So they listened to that in their cars. Like,

00:52:01.160 that's what they listened to. And that's, that's totally cool. It's just not for me, you know,

00:52:04.980 like I, I just want to listen to like the old, the old stuff, you know, and that, so, so I'm like,

00:52:10.920 should I stop listening to, um, love songs? You know, cause that's, that's my genre is like,

00:52:17.080 I just write love songs. Um, and a lot of them are reflection. They're, they're sad love songs,

00:52:21.900 you know, they're like reflections of experiences I've had or, um, or feelings I've had when my husband and I

00:52:27.100 going to fight or whatever it is, you know, like these are expressions of my experience. And do I,

00:52:32.160 and, and, and I think like, is it wrong? And you can help me maybe figure this out. Is it wrong that,

00:52:37.920 um, that not everything is about God in a sense or Jesus? Like, is it like, is it, is it wrong that,

00:52:47.880 um, like some people like listen to the Bee Gees sometimes or Holland, my dad likes Hall notes,

00:52:52.780 you know, or whatever. Um, like should we only listen to at all times? And, and to me, I'm like,

00:52:58.840 I don't know. I don't think Jesus would be bummed at me for listening to the cure. I, I, I don't,

00:53:03.560 um, like I think about sports. I don't know anything about sports at all, but people like to watch

00:53:08.680 sports and they're obsessed with it. I haven't think where I live right now, everybody's wearing

00:53:11.960 orange t-shirts I'm assuming. Cause there's like an orange, like football team or something. And it's

00:53:16.540 like, is that wrong? Cause like, I don't, I don't know, you know, like, but they're enjoying it or

00:53:22.300 is eating like food. That's not good for us. Like that's not about Jesus, but we enjoy it. We enjoy

00:53:30.860 this form of entertainment that, you know, at the end of the day, I just know I'm not going to listen

00:53:36.440 to something that doesn't sit right with my heart, with my faith, with whatever, you know, like, um,

00:53:43.240 there's certain things that I won't listen to like, and those are my, my own boundaries,

00:53:46.940 you know, but so I don't know. I don't have the answer to that, you know? So there's that part

00:53:51.820 with the music, but maybe you can talk about that more. Yeah. Well, I certainly wouldn't say that I

00:53:56.160 have all the answers cause those are, those are really good questions. The thing that comes to mind

00:54:00.420 is that God is the source of all truth and all beauty. So all truth is God's truth. Just because

00:54:08.700 something that is mathematically true, isn't necessarily something that you would find in

00:54:13.400 the Bible doesn't mean that it's outside of Christianity or not of God. God created it.

00:54:19.240 God created all beauty. He created all truth. So something can glorify him, even if it's not,

00:54:25.340 I think, specifically about Jesus or quoting the Bible because he created that person to have

00:54:30.700 artistic talent. He created those words. He created poetry. He created literature. And so,

00:54:36.220 yes, I listen to secular music too, but here's an example. Yeah. And I've got my producer is a

00:54:41.140 Swifty, so I don't know if she'll be offended by this, but okay. So there are Taylor Swift songs that

00:54:47.500 I really like and I can listen to. There are lots of songs like this, but then there are some songs

00:54:52.060 that I hear it and I'm like, I just can't listen to this without it feeling convicted. One of the songs

00:54:59.020 that I just cannot listen to by Taylor Swift is Karma. I don't know any Taylor Swift songs.

00:55:05.420 Yeah. Well, just the whole concept of karma, you know, you're familiar with it. People are

00:55:10.200 familiar with it, but she's basically talking about how karma is on her side because of all

00:55:15.020 these good things that she's done. It's against this person who is against her. I can't listen

00:55:19.700 to that because like, I think about the millions of girls who are taken in the theology of that song

00:55:24.700 and getting so confused and so miserable. Like you were saying people caught in the new age,

00:55:30.380 but that doesn't mean that I can't listen to, I don't know, Love Story by Taylor Swift or like my

00:55:36.760 husband and I love watching The Office. It's entertaining. Is every single part of it God

00:55:41.980 glorifying or is every single part of it biblical? No, but it's kind of like one of those things like

00:55:48.020 you were talking about. Yeah. Some of it's individual and then obviously I do think there

00:55:52.120 are objective standards of sin in the Bible too. Yeah. There are some things we definitely shouldn't be

00:55:55.980 listening to definitely shouldn't be watching because they glorify sin. Yeah. Yeah. So that's

00:56:02.040 like a very general answer. So vampires for me, it's like vampires aren't real. I like, to me, I like,

00:56:08.060 I think it's entertaining to think about certain things, you know, like, like, I've like, you know,

00:56:12.780 when you're a kid, you're like, what if I could fly? Or what if I was invisible? What would be your,

00:56:16.300 you know, like, these are just thoughts. Like I, I always thought like this weird fascinate people's

00:56:21.860 fascination with wanting to live forever, which would, to me would be like such a curse, you know?

00:56:25.820 Yeah. And it's like, so, and how we wrote people romanticize that, you know, but, um, or like

00:56:31.820 exorcism movies. Like I used to, that was my favorite genre before. I don't watch horror movies

00:56:36.540 anymore. Just not for any other reason. I just, I just don't want to get scared anymore. But, um,

00:56:42.240 but some of my favorite movies to this day are about exorcisms. And like, there was like one

00:56:47.160 specifically about, um, the exorcism of Emily Rose, which was more, it wasn't a horror movie as

00:56:51.960 more of like a court case movie about, uh, like a real, and it happened in real life. Like where a

00:56:57.820 lady, a girl got, um, supposedly possessed by a demon and, and the church didn't, you know,

00:57:03.800 there was a court case between the church and the medical field, like trying to figure out like what

00:57:08.440 was, would have been the right way to help this person. And I reflect on that on, in such a biblical

00:57:13.320 way. Like I, I, I, I can see like, like I see demonic possessions, like I say, especially in

00:57:19.340 addiction and in, um, like the guy who came to my door like that, that night. Like, so I, when I do

00:57:27.220 watch some of that stuff, like I do think about, um, you know, my faith. I don't think about like,

00:57:35.000 oh, this is so great and gory. That's not, that's not my approach to it. I'm looking at thinking in a

00:57:39.060 more, um, you know, I don't want to say philosophical, but like, I'm, I'm thinking

00:57:44.480 about it in a different, in a different way than just like getting off on darkness, you know? So,

00:57:49.080 and that, but that's just for me, like a lot of people don't like talking about death or demons

00:57:55.880 and things like that. Like to me, it's not, I don't have a problem with that, but to go back to

00:58:00.020 answer your other question about like people like Meryl Manson in my life, um, or my husband, for

00:58:04.260 example, you know, he, he writes extremely dark lyrics, which, you know, now that we're at a certain

00:58:08.760 point, he, you know, he does plan on retiring a lot of songs that he won't sing anymore. Like

00:58:13.480 people change, you know, like I've said some really cringy and awful things in my

00:58:18.020 past interviews that I'm like, oh, I hope nobody ever looks that up. Or even the books I've written

00:58:23.440 in the past. I'm like, oh, I was a 20 year old dumb kid. Like, you know, that's not who I am

00:58:28.140 anymore. You know? Um, I met Meryl Manson through sobriety, you know? Um, he, I think he,

00:58:35.840 I believe he just celebrated two years of sobriety now. And, um, that was, like I said,

00:58:41.640 that was a little bit of a gateway for me to like find my way back to God. And so I happily

00:58:46.980 facilitated a friendship over that. You know, I, I believe that all people have the ability to

00:58:51.540 change, you know, um, Ted Bundy on his like last, um, you know, inner final interview before being

00:58:58.420 killed, uh, had turned his life to God. And, and so I just feel like, like, why would I,

00:59:03.980 um, turn away my friends who, who know where I stand on things and know that I will always be

00:59:11.380 an open door if ever the time comes that they have a question, because that happened for me,

00:59:15.760 you know, like when I made my way back, like, I remember I called my friend Tara, like my friend

00:59:21.080 Tara never like, you know, banished me, you know, because of the dumb things that I said and did,

00:59:28.160 you know, and, and we're still very close now because of it, you know? And so I feel like when

00:59:34.480 people say things like that, like, Oh, how could you be friends with them? It's like, what do you

00:59:37.880 think I should do? Should I just, um, leave this guy with a bad taste of what Christianity looks like?

00:59:43.480 You know, like, no, I'm not. And I'm still going to love my friends who, who are, you know, I have

00:59:48.380 friends who are prostitutes. I have friends who are drug addicts. I have friends who are, you know,

00:59:52.060 going through really rough times or, you know, people who are cheating on their spouses. Not,

00:59:55.160 this is not all my friends, obviously, but I have, I have people that, that go through things and like,

00:59:59.740 um, you know, and, and I pray for them just as much. And I wish that, like,

01:00:03.240 I think that's what I wish the most was like, if these people genuinely cared about me or my husband,

01:00:09.200 instead of like picking us apart or picking him apart, like, I would hope that you would just pray

01:00:15.780 for us instead, you know? Cause it's already like hard enough in real life to like,

01:00:21.660 you know, live through, through a lot of this stuff, you know? And like,

01:00:24.740 then to just publicly like harass or humiliate you, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And also to like,

01:00:31.800 I don't know, I don't know when I look at people, I just don't understand what you're going through,

01:00:35.600 you know? Like, I remember tattooing a man who like accidentally killed his only son,

01:00:42.000 you know? And he got a portrait of, you know, that was, uh, paying homage. And it's like,

01:00:48.460 how did, how are you still here? You know? And like, I remember that day I was like pulling out of my

01:00:53.460 tattoo shop and I was leaving and I saw him, you know, bandaged up and he was crossing the street

01:00:57.220 to go back to his car. And I'm at the stoplight and he's just passing people. I'm like, the people

01:01:02.320 that are passing him have no idea what this man's carrying right now. And it's like, I, I mean,

01:01:09.620 it's like, and we just treat each other so poorly all the time, you know? Just like, ah, like,

01:01:14.620 um, look what he's wearing. Look at, you know, it's like, man, you just don't know, you know?

01:01:21.280 Yeah. Like even the people that hate me, I'm like, oh man, they got to be miserable in their own life.

01:01:24.740 Like, I'm not going to just be like, let me go look at your profile. Cause you're probably pretty

01:01:27.620 easy to break down too, you know? But I just think like, oh man, like you must not have a fun life.

01:01:33.080 You just don't know. Yeah. You just don't know. So yeah. I'm, um, I love Merrill Manson. I think

01:01:39.120 he's a good guy and I think he's actually like, you know, making a lot of deep, meaningful changes

01:01:44.800 that it's not my place to talk about that for him. But like, if you, if you knew you'd, you'd feel bad

01:01:50.160 about criticizing, you know? Yeah. So, um, so I don't know. Yeah. I think a lot of people are just

01:01:56.840 very unfamiliar. Yeah. Like with the world. And I just, I listened to your story and I think about

01:02:03.020 people that are in your circles, like the ones that you listed who don't know Christ at all or are

01:02:08.260 looking, like we all did at one point for that happiness and satisfaction. Like everyone's just

01:02:13.760 looking for that thing that lasts. Like, will something just keep me stable forever? Yeah.

01:02:19.280 And it can't be found outside of Christ. It's so obvious to me, like that the Lord is going to use

01:02:23.740 you and your testimony for these friends that you have. That maybe the outside world does look at

01:02:29.500 someone like Merrill and Manson or other people in your circle and think, wow, like, you know,

01:02:33.740 they're my enemy or they hate me and what I stand for, or they can't be redeemed. But you know,

01:02:38.940 personally that we're all just people. They're all just people all looking for the same things that

01:02:44.520 we're all looking for. Yeah. And I just think that you're in such a unique position that a lot of

01:02:50.960 people are not to help show those people, like where the love is that actually lasts and satisfies.

01:02:58.680 Or just to even see it as an option. Like, cause I didn't really have anybody other than Alice

01:03:02.500 Cooper, to be honest. Like, and I remember like after, after I posted that baptism video

01:03:07.380 and I was getting all this heat, I was like, I wonder how Alice like deals with this, you know?

01:03:11.940 And I just Googled like Alice Cooper, like faith, like YouTube, whatever. And I saw some of his

01:03:17.300 interviews and I was like, man, that's so cool. Like, you know, he was saying, and I'm not quoting

01:03:22.440 cause I'm going to butcher it, but he was saying about how, like when he had first found Jesus that

01:03:28.440 he was like, do I have to drop this Alice Cooper thing? You know, do I have to like, not have a

01:03:34.340 career anymore? Not saying like, and he's like, but no, God sent me here as Alice Cooper to be able

01:03:39.520 to like inspire people that would listen to somebody like him versus like somebody that, you know,

01:03:45.920 doesn't like, I don't, I don't feel like I relate to a lot of people in like the, um, in the,

01:03:51.400 in the Christian, uh, realm that, I mean, I, I do relate in, on, on matters of, of the Bible and

01:03:58.960 that's, that's what makes me love all my Christian, you know, family that way. But, um, but as far as

01:04:04.960 like understanding where we come from and like what, what, like what our normal is, like, you know,

01:04:11.380 um, it's, I don't know, it's just not, we don't have a lot of that. We have our friends,

01:04:17.540 you know, like the, the people that came out to my baptism, like they're, they're on the same page

01:04:21.680 and, and you wouldn't think that that was like another thing that people criticize is like, Oh,

01:04:26.000 look at all these like witches inside of a church. And it's like, what are you talking about? Those

01:04:29.840 people have been Christian longer than I have. The other thing about like criticizing people's

01:04:45.580 faith on social media, which I think like debates are fine or disagreements are fine. If someone

01:04:52.660 posts something like some commentator posts something that's theologically untrue, I might

01:04:56.520 respond to that. But just like judging a book by its cover and saying, wow, this person is,

01:05:02.000 looks like this or is making this mistake. They must not be a Christian. I think people forget so

01:05:07.220 quickly and so easily like their own sanctification journey. What you're seeing in someone's faith on

01:05:13.180 social media is just a snapshot of where they are. But there was a time like when I was younger that

01:05:18.840 I used to listen to the prosperity gospel and I was into that kind of stuff. I used to have a

01:05:23.500 different stance on abortion. I was a lot more liberal on it. I just didn't know. And there were

01:05:28.600 probably people maybe in my life then when I was listening to some of those teachers and having

01:05:32.940 some of those views in college who would have been like, if I'd put that publicly, Oh, you're not a

01:05:37.060 real Christian. No, I was, but I was still and am still as we all are being sanctified. So no,

01:05:44.760 no one has perfect wisdom. And so someone sharing their testimony, I think it's really easy to

01:05:51.740 criticize while forgetting like where we all were when we became Christians. Not saying that's you,

01:05:58.280 but like all of us are being sanctified and learning and gaining wisdom and are changing for the better.

01:06:05.020 And so, yeah, I think, I think like the important change too is like, it's not outward. Cause I see

01:06:12.700 a lot of that. Um, you know, I've, I follow like Christian accounts and I, I, a lot of the content

01:06:17.280 that I engage with is in that world. So a lot of the, you know, how Instagram, the algorithm will

01:06:23.300 show you stuff. So I get a lot of like flashes of people like, Oh, look before Christ. And it was

01:06:28.460 like somebody dressed a certain way. And it's like after Christ and they're just like modest and stuff.

01:06:31.880 And they're blonde. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, and, and, and to be honest, like I've actually been

01:06:36.020 pretty modest, like most of my life. I know I don't, but like, if you look at like my history,

01:06:40.540 like you won't find naked photos of me. Like, I'm just not like generally that that's never been my

01:06:46.580 vibe, you know? But, um, but, uh, I, I think that the, the, the more meaningful changes like happen,

01:06:54.700 at least for me was, I mean, they're just groundbreaking changes that happened internally,

01:06:59.780 you know? And that's what people were like, there's like one annoying comment that people

01:07:03.660 put in it. I know it's, um, regarding a verse, something about like, show me the fruits or

01:07:09.160 whatever. Like, um, like we'll, we'll see, we'll see if she's really Christian once we,

01:07:13.780 a tree shall be known. Yeah. Yeah. And that I'm like block delete, but, um, but it's like,

01:07:19.280 you know, I, if you would have known my heart and mind before and to where I am now,

01:07:28.400 you would be like, your mind would be blown. Like I told Rafa, my husband, Raphael one time,

01:07:35.480 I was like, do you know that? Like you, you leading me back to where I am now has,

01:07:44.120 is probably the reason that we're, we're together now, you know? Like, I feel like I'm the best wife

01:07:50.300 and the best mother I can be now because of the changes that I've had. I mean, there's been,

01:07:54.880 it's like a deep programming that has taken place. Things that I used to find attractive

01:08:00.580 are, are disgusting to me, you know? And it's like, like, um, I wish I could put into words,

01:08:08.560 like how amazing those changes are that I, that I've been able to experience through all this.

01:08:13.280 And it's so cool. You know, is there an example that you can think of, of like something that

01:08:17.200 you used to like that you find disgusting? Um, I just think like the things that I even like

01:08:22.840 would find just attractive in general, like in, in, in people, like, you know, I used to think it

01:08:28.760 was, um, like, I don't know, like, I don't, I mean, there's a lot. I think like an easy one is like,

01:08:40.980 um, my life before, like, I would have just been like this career boss, babe, or whatever it is that

01:08:47.880 they call them. It's like, I have no interest in that anymore. It's not, I mean, I, I, I love to

01:08:53.000 be creative and I love to have ideas and, and make them come to life with my mind in my hands. But,

01:08:58.380 um, but my priorities have, have shifted like a great deal, you know? And I think like how I see

01:09:06.120 my husband now is just, I mean, um, it's just, it's just awesome, you know? So to end,

01:09:15.380 what message would you give someone who is watching this, who may be there in the position

01:09:24.260 to where they're like, yeah, you know, I want to believe that God is real, but there are things

01:09:30.520 holding me back, whether it's their past or whether it's who they are now, or whether it's

01:09:36.240 that they don't like what they see from Christians. It's just not attractive to them. Like, what would

01:09:41.580 you tell that person? Oh man, I'm not, I'm not good at these kinds of giving messages out or advice.

01:09:47.060 What would you have told yourself? I don't, I mean, you know, I think what's exciting to me is to look,

01:09:51.560 like, I loved researching like the historical aspect of the Bible because then there, you just start

01:09:56.600 seeing actual truths. And I think a lot of people, when they think of like, um, oh, it's like, um,

01:10:03.160 you know, some guy with a beard and in the clouds and like, like miracles didn't really happen like

01:10:09.680 this kind of, but when you start looking at like, there's so much evidence that is so undeniable.

01:10:15.440 I mean, it's so cool. That's the part where I was like, okay, this isn't, this isn't just about

01:10:20.280 blind faith. Oh, I just believe because this is like what I was talking about with my childhood.

01:10:24.100 It's like, I just believe because that's what my parents told me to do. It's like,

01:10:26.420 no, no, no. There's actual like, like evidence and information that's like so exciting and

01:10:31.480 inspiring. So, you know, like I said, when you, um, gifted me the idea of getting that Bible,

01:10:38.240 like it really helped me out because I go to, I have like a little women's Bible study class that

01:10:42.660 I go to on Tuesdays at my church and stuff, but we are a little bit of like, not the blind leading

01:10:47.620 the blind, but we're all figuring it out together, you know? And so it's like, um, you know,

01:10:52.980 I, I, I don't know what the advice is. You know, I got really lucky with a pastor that

01:10:57.880 has like a doctrine in theology and like, like is very knowledgeable and I can ask certain

01:11:01.700 questions that we can talk about it. And he has like, you know, opened my mind to certain

01:11:06.080 things. And I don't, I don't know how to tell people how to find that, you know? I mean,

01:11:09.880 you're probably better at it than me. I just, I just know that it's within me and that's what

01:11:13.820 I want to do.

01:11:14.700 Yeah. Well, I think you answered the question just by giving your testimony of talking about

01:11:18.400 how God draws people and kind of what you did to seek that out and the questions that

01:11:23.320 you asked. I think it's just good for people to hear too, that it's okay to have questions

01:11:28.220 and that you don't have to have it all figured out. And actually we are all figuring it out

01:11:33.380 whether you've been a Christian for five minutes or 50 years, there are going to be questions

01:11:37.960 that are unanswered, but there are also like, I see a lot of people saying, well, I can't be

01:11:44.320 a Christian because this question, this question, this question, or whatever it is. And I think a

01:11:49.860 lot of people have some arrogance in believing that no one else has ever asked the questions or

01:11:56.520 had the doubts that you do when really, thankfully, like we have thousands of years of very smart,

01:12:02.680 very knowledgeable, very wise theologians who have wrestled with a lot of those questions. So

01:12:07.740 like chances are, there are a lot of answers to the questions that we have, not perfect in all of

01:12:13.440 them. But like you said, like you asked people, you sought people who knew what they were talking

01:12:19.080 about. You read the Bible, you got to study Bible. I think that is a good answer. Like seek the

01:12:23.880 questions that you have. Don't just sit with them. Like seek the truth about them because

01:12:28.220 chances are there's a lot of wisdom out there for you. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Well, Kat, thank you so

01:12:33.960 much for taking the time. We could talk a lot more. It's already been an hour and seven minutes.

01:12:38.220 That was a beautiful job sharing your testimony. Oh, thanks. I know it's going to encourage a lot of

01:12:41.920 people. So thank you so much. Oh, no, thank you. And sorry if I rambled a lot. I tend to do that.

01:12:46.180 You didn't. It was beautiful. It was perfect. Thank you.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - November 06, 2023

Ep 902 ｜ Kat Von D on Becoming a Christian

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