Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 904 ｜ My Response to Andy Stanley's LGBTQ Sermon

00:00:00.900 Pastor Andy Stanley hosted a conference called the Unconditional Conference that many are

00:00:06.280 saying was gay affirming.

00:00:09.440 I am finally giving you my thoughts, my commentary on this conference, and also Andy Stanley's

00:00:15.260 explanation of this conference.

00:00:17.520 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:20.280 Go to goodranchers.com.

00:00:21.400 Use code Allie. 1.00

00:00:22.140 That's goodranchers.com, code Allie.

00:00:30.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable.

00:00:34.980 Happy Wednesday.

00:00:36.380 Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far.

00:00:38.620 Okay, we're finally getting into this Andy Stanley LGBTQ sermon.

00:00:44.840 I said several weeks ago on Instagram that I was going to give you my response on it,

00:00:50.020 and then I just ran out of time.

00:00:51.980 I just didn't have time.

00:00:53.020 I'm a busy girl.

00:00:54.100 And so I'm kind of glad I did wait, though, because now I've really had time to think about

00:00:58.980 it, and I'm able to give a proper, thoughtful, more thoughtful response on the podcast.

00:01:05.580 And so I know I'm a little behind.

00:01:07.440 There have been so many Christians, so many people that have reacted to it and have given 0.97

00:01:12.200 really good responses.

00:01:13.340 So I'm not sure that I'm going to say anything that you haven't already heard, but for a lot

00:01:18.120 of you, this is the only podcast that you listen to, and you've been waiting on my reaction

00:01:22.860 to the sermon, and so I wanted to be sure to give you my thoughts.

00:01:27.280 And just so you know, a couple things I want to say.

00:01:30.560 I have listened to this sermon now three times, and so I'm not attempting to take anything

00:01:36.680 out of context.

00:01:37.820 I did not listen.

00:01:39.900 I listened very thoroughly, and I was hoping to be pleasantly surprised by the sermon.

00:01:44.800 As you will hear, I was not pleasantly surprised.

00:01:46.820 I was very saddened by what I heard, and I'll explain why.

00:01:50.620 But I really listened to it from a place of hoping to be able to understand and hoping

00:01:59.000 that the crux of the message would be something that I would be able to agree with.

00:02:03.980 As you will hear, there are parts of this sermon that I did agree with.

00:02:07.360 Absolutely.

00:02:08.140 And I will talk about that.

00:02:09.420 But I really think it missed the mark in a very, very big and eternal way, actually.

00:02:14.540 And just so you know, I have reached out to Pastor Andy Stanley.

00:02:18.880 We reached out, our team did, in the hopes that he would come on the show, and he was

00:02:24.300 not available to do so.

00:02:25.600 That's fine.

00:02:26.240 I have no hard feelings.

00:02:27.300 I certainly don't accept every interview invitation that I receive.

00:02:30.540 And so he wasn't able to come on.

00:02:32.300 But I genuinely did want to have a conversation with him because I like a lot of what Andy

00:02:37.340 Stanley says.

00:02:38.580 I mean, let's just acknowledge that he is an excellent communicator.

00:02:41.820 I think there is a lot that we can learn from him when it comes to communication.

00:02:46.700 He might be one of the best communicators that I know.

00:02:49.880 His father was a great communicator, too.

00:02:52.080 I think that there are many pastors that can learn from Andy Stanley's communication style

00:02:58.080 and the way he is able to simplify very complex ideas.

00:03:03.200 Not everyone has that skill.

00:03:04.500 Not everyone has that talent.

00:03:06.100 Andy Stanley does.

00:03:07.300 And I very much appreciate that.

00:03:09.220 As someone who is always seeking to do that myself, to simply and concisely, and maybe

00:03:14.440 not concisely, but clearly explain something that's complicated, I very much appreciate

00:03:18.220 that about him.

00:03:19.340 However, there are some major theological things that I disagree with him on.

00:03:23.860 And one of them is how he talks about the issue, if you will, of LGBTQ.

00:03:30.080 Before we actually get into the sermon, let me back up a little bit and explain to you

00:03:36.820 why we're talking about this, why he even gave the sermon that he did.

00:03:41.760 So several months ago, there were headlines that were published.

00:03:46.680 I first saw it, I think, in the Christian Post that there was a conference that Andy Stanley's

00:03:52.140 church, North Point Community Church, major church in Atlanta, has campuses in different

00:03:56.780 areas, that they would be hosting a conference called the Unconditional Conference.

00:04:01.700 And the Unconditional Conference was supposed to be for parents of those who identify as LGBTQ.

00:04:13.940 So this was to provide resources for them, community for them in a way that was meant to ensure

00:04:21.720 that these parents could maintain or restore relationships with their children.

00:04:25.980 The stated purpose was also to make sure that these parents were equipped to show the

00:04:31.520 children, their children, the love of God, the love of Christ, it says, to build bridges

00:04:37.060 between LGBTQ plus individuals, their families, and the church, not in spite of the Bible, but

00:04:42.200 because of the Bible, drawing parents and children into a deeper relationship with each other

00:04:47.960 and vertically with God.

00:04:50.140 So this is by Embracing the Journey, which is a ministry that was founded by people named

00:04:58.460 Greg and Lynn McDonald, and they have experiences, we will talk about Andy Stanley explained, as

00:05:05.600 Christian parents with a son who came out as gay.

00:05:08.720 And so their ministry kind of initiated this conference, helped build this conference, and

00:05:15.640 so their mission was also the mission of the Unconditional Conference.

00:05:19.120 Now, the reason why this was making headlines was because of some of the people who were

00:05:25.020 invited.

00:05:26.280 And I will get into this a little bit more, but some of the people were seen as very

00:05:30.980 controversial.

00:05:31.980 Even Greg and Lynn McDonald themselves were seen by many people as controversial because

00:05:36.700 they have a son who has come out as gay.

00:05:38.900 And this son is now, I believe, still engaged to be married, or maybe in what they would

00:05:44.260 call a marriage relationship.

00:05:46.640 They have a picture with their entire family, including the fiancé, on the website of the

00:05:51.700 ministry that says, you know, this is a picture of our family, including our son's fiancé.

00:05:56.400 And so it caused a lot of people to raise their eyebrows and ask the question, is this couple

00:06:02.180 affirming the LGBTQ lifestyle or not?

00:06:05.260 And then someone that people have fewer questions about, but more concerns about, was a person

00:06:11.480 named Justin Lee, who is in what some would call a gay marriage.

00:06:16.040 He is actively gay. 0.98

00:06:17.760 He is in a romantic relationship with a man. 0.95

00:06:20.840 He professes Christianity.

00:06:22.460 He runs an organization that seeks to reconcile Christianity and particularly evangelicals with

00:06:32.300 LGBTQ people.

00:06:34.240 And so, of course, people looked at some of these speakers, in particular, Justin Lee

00:06:39.540 and his partner, Brian, and said, well, is this a gay affirming conference?

00:06:46.100 Is Andy Stanley gay affirming? 0.83

00:06:48.580 This is a little bit troubling for someone who says that he holds to the definition of

00:06:53.580 biblical marriage.

00:06:55.620 And so that's why this was making headlines.

00:06:58.080 This is why I originally talked about it.

00:07:00.380 There were a couple more speakers that were speaking and then pulled out of the conference

00:07:04.280 that I was troubled by.

00:07:06.100 But I was particularly troubled, disturbed by the invitation or the platforming of a man

00:07:13.400 who claims to be an active Christian and is living an active gay lifestyle.

00:07:18.760 Apparently, he was seen as a trusted, good, reputable, even biblical resource for Christian parents

00:07:26.940 whose kids have come out as gay or confused about their gender.

00:07:31.400 This prompted Dr. Al Mohler.

00:07:34.540 He's been on this podcast before.

00:07:36.920 I really respect Dr. Mohler.

00:07:39.020 And he is the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville.

00:07:45.680 He is a big name in the SBC, has been for a very long time.

00:07:50.020 And he wrote an article for World Magazine that says,

00:07:54.880 Go and sin no more.

00:07:56.460 Andy Stanley doubles down on his departure from biblical Christianity.

00:08:01.600 He wrote an article on September 18th called,

00:08:04.780 The Train is Leaving the Station, Andy Stanley's Departure from Biblical Christianity. 0.51

00:08:10.240 He starts the article like this.

00:08:11.560 It's not like we have not seen this coming.

00:08:13.360 And it's not like we have not seen this coming.

00:08:15.280 In the coming days, Andy Stanley is set to host the unconditional conference

00:08:18.080 at a campus of North Point Community Church in the metro Atlanta area.

00:08:21.380 And the website for the conference bills it as a two-day premiere event,

00:08:23.960 especially designed for parents of, quote,

00:08:26.460 LGBTQ plus children and ministry leaders.

00:08:29.200 You'll be equipped, refreshed, inspired,

00:08:32.180 as you hear from leading communicators on topics that speak to your heart, soul, and mind.

00:08:37.760 And then they promised a, quote, unquote, quieter middle space.

00:08:43.020 And Mohler says,

00:08:43.980 This might appear attractive given the volatility of cultural discourse on LGBTQ issues

00:08:48.460 and a conference designed to help parents of these children and ministry leaders

00:08:51.580 work through these issues in clearly biblical terms would be a welcome development.

00:08:55.760 But, Mohler says,

00:08:57.220 The advertising for the unconditional conference indicates clearly that this event

00:09:00.480 is designed as a platform for normalizing the LGBTQ revolution

00:09:04.420 while claiming that the conference represents the quieter middle space.

00:09:07.460 In truth, there is no middle space on these issues,

00:09:09.640 and it is no longer plausible to claim that such middle space exists.

00:09:14.800 Then he goes on to talk about some of these speakers,

00:09:19.440 one of whom I just described to you, Justin Lee,

00:09:22.460 and what he would call his husband, Brian Neetzel.

00:09:25.700 Then he also says another major speaker is David Gushie,

00:09:28.380 a prominent intellectual who has been honest about his own change of mind

00:09:31.420 on the moral status of LGBTQ plus behaviors and relationships.

00:09:34.740 In the definitive edition of his book, Changing Our Mind,

00:09:38.820 subtitled as A Landmark Call for Inclusion of LGBT Christians,

00:09:43.900 he traces his own pilgrimage to eager LGBTQ advocacy.

00:09:49.020 So that was another speaker at this event hosted by Andy Stanley and his church.

00:09:55.640 And so he is concerned about this.

00:09:57.480 Is this really a middle space?

00:09:59.040 From what we see, at least on the roster of speakers,

00:10:01.720 there weren't anyone who would actually represent.

00:10:04.000 I don't even know if I would call it the conservative theological position on marriage,

00:10:08.200 but just the historic belief of marriage, the biblical definition of marriage.

00:10:14.720 It was an affirming conference, at least what we could see from the website.

00:10:21.240 And then Albert Miller goes on to say that Andy Stanley is one of the most influential pastors

00:10:27.400 in the United States, and that he goes through some of the controversies

00:10:31.300 that he's been embroiled in over the years based on some of the things that he has said.

00:10:37.240 One of the quotes that I thought was interesting that Albert Miller pulled was,

00:10:40.440 if your theology gets in the way of ministry,

00:10:42.120 like if there's somebody you can't minister to because of your theology,

00:10:45.300 you have the wrong theology.

00:10:46.820 I think that's an important quote to remember

00:10:48.560 as we look at some of the things that Andy Stanley said in his sermon that we're about to get into.

00:10:56.960 And so Albert Miller goes on to say that, you know,

00:10:59.860 maybe we can give the benefit of the doubt.

00:11:01.700 Maybe the conference won't actually be affirming.

00:11:04.940 Maybe it's something totally different than it's being advertised,

00:11:08.360 but that would be a really big change from what we are actually seeing at the website.

00:11:12.660 So the sermon that Andy Stanley preached is in response to this article.

00:11:19.620 It's in response to this article.

00:11:21.360 So we'll get in to that as well as what actually happened at the conference,

00:11:26.000 which happened before Andy Stanley gave his sermon responding to this Albert Miller article.

00:11:42.660 All right, so Andy Stanley was not happy about this article published in September by Al Mohler,

00:11:48.580 so he responded to it.

00:11:49.520 But he responded to it after this unconditional conference that Al Mohler wrote his article about.

00:11:55.960 So let me tell you a little bit about that conference.

00:11:58.540 I did not attend that conference.

00:12:00.120 I had just had a child.

00:12:01.380 I wasn't planning to attend the conference, just to be perfectly honest.

00:12:04.200 But I can tell you some of the reaction to that conference by people who were there.

00:12:14.500 And I think that's probably as close as we can get to a proper understanding of what actually went down.

00:12:24.260 And so there was an attendee who talked about his experience on Twitter.

00:12:30.140 His name is Zach Lambert, and he is a progressive.

00:12:34.080 I believe he's a pastor, but he gives a lot of progressive commentary on Twitter or X.

00:12:39.960 And his biblical interpretation is very progressive, very liberal.

00:12:44.080 He is very LGBT affirming.

00:12:46.460 He attended the conference because he wanted to see what it was about.

00:12:49.240 So here's what he had to say about Andy Stanley's unconditional conference.

00:12:52.740 He said, I was at the now infamous unconditional conference last week at Andy Stanley's North Point Church,

00:12:57.800 put on by embracing the journey.

00:12:59.640 I went to be with some dear friends, but more than that, I want to see if this conference would be yet another bait and switch,

00:13:04.380 a space that claimed to be safe and supportive of the LGBTQ plus folks,

00:13:07.700 but was actually all about telling them they need to leave behind their sexual orientation and or gender identity to fully follow Jesus.

00:13:15.680 He said this was not a bait and switch.

00:13:17.920 It was safe, supportive, and affirming.

00:13:20.540 They explicitly communicated that they were not trying to change anyone's theology, and they didn't.

00:13:25.160 But every speaker, video, book, and breakout, I saw fully affirmed LGBTQ folks.

00:13:32.520 Okay, that's what this attendee said.

00:13:34.800 I saw pastors advocating for inclusion, parents welcoming their children's same-sex partners into the family,

00:13:39.520 trans folks sharing their transition stories, and queer people leading at literally every level.

00:13:46.540 So it's interesting because, as we'll talk about, Andy says, this was not a conference to change people's minds,

00:13:52.660 to debate, to change people's theology, and yet it was.

00:13:57.160 I'm sure that if a conservative person walked into that room or someone who held to the tenets of biblical sexuality

00:14:05.080 and all they heard was affirmation, affirmation, affirmation, what is that but an attempt to persuade in a particular direction?

00:14:11.740 You can say that's just shepherding.

00:14:13.460 You can say that's just pastoring.

00:14:15.480 But if everyone is coming from a particular perspective, that is persuasion.

00:14:20.760 Even if someone is not pointing their finger at you and saying, you must believe this. 0.99

00:14:25.220 I mean, Andy Stanley knows this.

00:14:26.480 He knows the power of communication and persuasion.

00:14:29.240 And, of course, if you have everyone presenting one particular position, that is going to be persuasive.

00:14:35.220 So he's right.

00:14:35.900 It wasn't a debate there.

00:14:37.840 It wasn't something where they were having an interesting and nuanced discussion about what position to take,

00:14:44.240 apparently, according to this person.

00:14:45.920 It was just one position, one perspective, which is that of, according to this person, affirmation.

00:14:52.940 And then he said, on Sunday, Andy preached a sermon explaining why North Point hosted the conference.

00:14:56.640 The sermon was compiled of one minute.

00:14:58.260 I completely disagreed with.

00:15:01.200 He said, North Point still teaches that biblical marriage is between one man and one woman.

00:15:06.660 Andy Stanley does say that in his sermon that we're about to get into in 48 minutes of advocating for full inclusion of LGBTQ plus folks in the church.

00:15:15.140 Andy said this is an issue where they don't want to draw lines that exclude,

00:15:17.940 but circles that fully include everyone, married, gay folks, trans folks, and everyone else.

00:15:25.120 So that is someone who attended the conference, who was a progressive, who was very happy with the conference that everyone was affirming.

00:15:33.200 Now, one of the conference speakers, Brian Neetzel, he is the guy who was a quote unquote husband to Justin Lee,

00:15:39.020 another conference speaker who Andy Stanley platforms and actually says in his sermon that Brian and Justin have talked multiple times at North Point Church.

00:15:50.840 Here's something that he says in a tweet thread after the conference.

00:15:55.200 He said this, he quoted a gay affirming pastor in his thread that says,

00:16:02.440 I've come to realize that LGBTQ plus people are the ones who are going after the sheep that lost their way. 0.99

00:16:08.600 As a pastor, I'm the sheep that needed saving.

00:16:11.220 Consider that LGBTQ plus people may be our rescuers, 1.00

00:16:15.280 that they are the ones who can help us back to God's love by showing us where we have gone wrong.

00:16:22.340 So this was one of the conference speakers. This is what he believes.

00:16:25.460 That was not his quote. He's quoting someone else saying that,

00:16:28.060 but he put that in his tweet as something that he appreciates and believes.

00:16:30.920 This was someone who spoke at Andy Stanley's conference, someone who is in a quote unquote gay marriage.

00:16:37.620 There's so much wrong with this quote, replacing Jesus, 0.95

00:16:42.200 who is supposed to be the shepherd that finds the lost sheep with gay people. 1.00

00:16:46.480 Jesus shouldn't be replaced with anyone. 0.88

00:16:47.940 But you are saying that people who are living in act of sin and rebellion against God's word,

00:16:53.160 that they are actually the shepherd going after the lost sheep who are the non-affirming people. 1.00

00:16:59.320 This is the kind of person that spoke at this conference.

00:17:01.960 Okay, let's get in to the actual sermon by Andy Stanley, responding to all the criticism,

00:17:09.340 talking about the conference, responding in particular to Al Mohler.

00:17:15.340 So he talks about, he just brings up, he doesn't say Dr. Mohler's name.

00:17:21.360 He just says, there's a very influential Christian leader who wrote this article about me that I think is so terrible.

00:17:29.060 And it's called, The Train is Leaving the Station, Andy Stanley's Departure from Biblical Christianity.

00:17:34.340 And that's how he kind of starts the sermon.

00:17:36.120 He says, it's absolutely wrong.

00:17:37.880 And then here's what he has to say about Albert Mohler and the article.

00:17:41.420 His version of Biblical Christianity is the problem.

00:17:47.640 His version, this version of Biblical Christianity is why people are leaving Christianity unnecessarily.

00:17:54.080 It's the version that causes people to resist the Christian faith 0.99

00:17:58.840 because they can't find Jesus in the midst of all the other stuff and all the other theology

00:18:03.540 and all the other complexity that gets globbed on.

00:18:06.380 Wow. Wow. That's a really big statement.

00:18:09.940 He goes on to say that Jesus did not draw lines.

00:18:13.000 He drew circles.

00:18:14.740 That he and Dr. Mohler do not have the same version of Christianity

00:18:18.520 and that Dr. Mohler's version of Christianity is actually what is pushing people away.

00:18:23.800 So what's ironic about this is that he accuses Dr. Mohler of being divisive.

00:18:28.480 He accuses Dr. Mohler of drawing lines.

00:18:31.500 He accuses Dr. Mohler of creating fault lines, I guess, where there shouldn't be

00:18:36.720 and, you know, punching below the belt.

00:18:40.000 And yet he does the same thing here.

00:18:41.660 He's drawing a really big line.

00:18:43.260 He's drawing a big line, not just between himself and Dr. Mohler.

00:18:47.040 He is apparently drawing a really big line between himself

00:18:50.560 and everyone who believes the same thing that Dr. Mohler does,

00:18:54.600 which is, of course, the biblical definition of sexuality and gender and marriage.

00:19:00.000 I mean, talk about drawing a line by saying that someone who does not subscribe

00:19:05.440 to the same doctrines that you do, the same beliefs that you do,

00:19:09.880 is repelling people from Christianity. 0.53

00:19:13.380 That's quote unquote divisive, isn't it?

00:19:16.040 Isn't that a dividing line?

00:19:18.420 So you draw circles, but Dr. Mohler is the one who stands outside of the circle.

00:19:23.460 That's really interesting.

00:19:25.540 That's a really intense thing to say.

00:19:27.100 He goes on to basically explain why they had this unconditional conference.

00:19:32.220 He goes all the way back to 2014.

00:19:34.160 Then he goes back to 2011, where he says that there was an issue that the church was facing,

00:19:39.020 that middle school and high school leaders, that the ministry leaders of the middle school

00:19:45.620 and high school ministries at North Point Community Church came to Andy and said,

00:19:49.160 look, our small group leaders don't know how to deal with students who are coming out to them.

00:19:55.440 They don't know what to say.

00:19:56.420 They don't know what their response is.

00:19:57.700 So can we create some kind of curriculum, some kind of toolkit to give these kids so they know

00:20:02.340 how to respond to these students who are coming out to them?

00:20:07.060 And Andy Stanley said, yes, we should absolutely, that we should absolutely do this.

00:20:13.640 And he goes on to explain, which I think is true, how difficult it is for a young Christian

00:20:19.280 kid to realize that they have feelings of same-sex attraction.

00:20:22.500 He goes on to explain that a lot of these kids do not want this, that they're terrified

00:20:26.500 by the feelings that they find themselves having, that they pray it away, and they hope that

00:20:30.820 God changes them.

00:20:31.820 They don't want to talk to anyone.

00:20:33.980 And when they do finally work up the courage to tell someone that they're telling these

00:20:38.520 small group leaders and these small group leaders don't know what to say, but they should

00:20:41.420 know what to say.

00:20:42.440 All of that, I agree with.

00:20:44.540 I agree with that.

00:20:45.520 I do think kids that wrestle with these feelings are terrified.

00:20:48.440 They do feel isolated.

00:20:49.440 They do feel alone and that Satan wants them to stay alone.

00:20:52.860 Satan wants them to remain in the darkness.

00:20:55.380 Satan wants them to not tell anyone.

00:20:57.220 I do think it is wonderful that they felt safe enough, that they felt secure enough at

00:21:03.360 their church, that they were coming to their small group leaders, that they were coming

00:21:06.360 to church leaders and saying, hey, here's what's going on in my heart and mind and body.

00:21:10.720 Help me.

00:21:11.420 I don't know what to do with this.

00:21:14.040 I agree with that.

00:21:15.120 I think we can empathize with those feelings of confusion and those feelings of fear and

00:21:20.620 isolation.

00:21:22.140 And I also agree with what Andy Stanley says when he says, the church should be the safest

00:21:27.140 place for students to talk about anything, including same-sex attraction.

00:21:32.860 I agree with that, except I would ask, what is actually meant by the word safe?

00:21:38.120 What is meant by the word safe?

00:21:39.760 By safe, do you mean that they are going to receive love, biblical love, which is inextricably

00:21:46.320 intertwined with truth?

00:21:47.980 Is that what you mean by safe?

00:21:50.220 Or do you mean affirming?

00:21:52.240 Do you mean it's okay?

00:21:54.260 It's okay to embrace feelings of same-sex attraction. 0.95

00:21:59.120 It's okay to embrace a different identity that is the opposite of your biological sex. 1.00

00:22:05.140 What is meant by safe?

00:22:06.620 If you just mean that, yes, they are going to receive kindness, they are going to receive

00:22:11.700 love and gentle admonition and truth and someone to walk alongside them and disciple them as

00:22:18.540 they learn to walk in repentance, as we all must do, no matter what our struggles are, then

00:22:23.540 I agree with that.

00:22:24.580 But if by safe you mean affirming, then I cannot agree with that because it is not loving ever

00:22:29.900 to affirm the thing that is going to kill someone, which is sin, which is sin, all sin.

00:22:35.440 Um, here's what he has to say when he is explaining kind of the plight of these students who are

00:22:42.000 struggling with sexuality.

00:22:43.320 Depending on the church that they attend, they are literally afraid they are going to hell.

00:22:50.540 Not because of anything they've done, but because of who they are, because of the message,

00:22:58.200 not of culture, the message of the church.

00:23:02.160 Hmm, I have a lot to say to those last few words.

00:23:18.400 So Andy Stanley right there, and this is something that he says in a few different ways a few times

00:23:23.160 throughout this sermon that I think is the fundamental flaw of all of this and is actually

00:23:28.220 upstream from a lot of the other things he says that I just disagree with.

00:23:31.780 They feel shame not for something that they've done, but for who they are.

00:23:38.000 No, no, you are not your attractions.

00:23:43.100 You are not your feelings.

00:23:45.380 You are not your temptations.

00:23:48.860 You are not your sin.

00:23:51.440 And yes, thoughts, lust, desire for same-sex attraction, that is a sin.

00:23:59.600 It is sinful.

00:24:00.780 Romans 1 actually explains that very well, that these are sinful desires.

00:24:06.080 And so no, these students are not ashamed of who they are because they are not their thoughts.

00:24:11.740 They are not their lust.

00:24:13.200 They are not their attraction.

00:24:14.880 These are sinful inclinations that they all have because we all have sinful thoughts.

00:24:19.620 We all have sinful attractions to some things or sinful temptations.

00:24:25.580 But no, this is not who they are.

00:24:27.860 This is not their identity.

00:24:29.980 Because if you say that this is their identity, then you tell them that this is inescapable,

00:24:34.840 that this is a core part of you and your identity.

00:24:40.200 And that is simply not biblical.

00:24:42.560 We are not our feelings.

00:24:45.000 What they are ashamed of, they are ashamed of their temptations.

00:24:48.260 They are ashamed of their feelings.

00:24:49.400 They're scared of these things.

00:24:50.580 They're scared of their feelings.

00:24:51.880 They're scared of their temptations.

00:24:53.720 And yes, that is very normal.

00:24:55.300 That is a very scary and fearful feeling, absolutely.

00:25:00.240 But it is not who they are.

00:25:03.300 And that is so important, I think, to separate our identity from the sexual feelings that we

00:25:08.340 have, from the sexual attraction that we have, from whatever confusion that we have.

00:25:14.580 That is not their identity.

00:25:16.040 Someone who is in Christ, someone who is a Christian, has been bought with a price by 1.00

00:25:22.660 him and is a new creation.

00:25:25.380 I mean, 1 Corinthians 6, 19 through 20 is very relevant here.

00:25:29.380 Or do you not know that your body, your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you,

00:25:35.560 whom you have from God.

00:25:37.300 You are not your own, for you were bought with a price.

00:25:39.940 So glorify God in your body.

00:25:42.240 That is the good news.

00:25:43.700 For whatever struggle you have, for whatever temptation you have, whatever feelings or

00:25:47.280 attractions you have, that you are not those things.

00:25:50.280 That you are in Christ, if you are a Christian, bought with a price, you are indwelled by the 1.00

00:25:56.880 Holy Spirit that God has graciously given you.

00:25:59.260 And you are no longer your own.

00:26:01.080 You are no longer mastered by those desires, mastered by those feelings, because you were

00:26:06.000 bought with a price, which is the blood of Christ.

00:26:08.720 So you can, you have the power to, with the Holy Spirit that is in you, glorify God in your

00:26:14.320 body.

00:26:14.780 Yes, you can do that.

00:26:16.680 All of us can through the power of the Holy Spirit.

00:26:18.960 No, this is not who you are.

00:26:22.620 This is a struggle.

00:26:23.840 And we are all ashamed in one way or another of maybe the struggles we have had in the past

00:26:28.880 or the temptations that we face today.

00:26:31.220 But no, Andy Stanley, your attraction is not who you are.

00:26:37.760 I also noticed that in this vein, he often says LGBTQ plus, and he states that as an identity.

00:26:46.240 It's very, like it's, that's very progressive.

00:26:48.960 Say LGBTQ plus, what does the plus even mean?

00:26:52.740 I mean, the plus really means infinity, right?

00:26:54.980 The plus really means that it can be anything because we're not even putting the letters

00:26:58.840 after that.

00:26:59.400 We're not even specifying.

00:27:00.880 So what do you mean by plus?

00:27:02.240 I think that we have to be very careful using our language.

00:27:04.820 What do we mean by plus?

00:27:05.900 Are you really saying that everything in the plus falls under this umbrella of someone's

00:27:12.520 identity, of who they are?

00:27:14.440 So anyway, I think that's the premise that he's starting from.

00:27:17.980 And that is why there are so many, I think, really big theological errors in what he says.

00:27:24.000 So he talks about parent connect because of this problem, which I think is a real issue

00:27:28.640 and a real thing that churches do have to confront honestly and biblically, though, is that there

00:27:33.780 are going to be students wrestling with same-sex attraction.

00:27:36.420 There are going to be students confused about their gender.

00:27:38.760 And now more than ever, there are going to be students who do not see any problem with

00:27:42.120 this.

00:27:43.160 And I agree that ministry leaders absolutely have to be equipped to talk to these kids

00:27:48.700 in love and kindness and biblical truth, by the way.

00:27:53.340 They started Parent Connect, and they wanted to equip parents to talk about these issues

00:27:58.280 with their kids.

00:27:59.380 Christian parents talk about these issues with their kids.

00:28:02.200 And he applauds his church for doing this.

00:28:05.360 And maybe a lot of this is good.

00:28:06.800 I haven't been to these ministries myself.

00:28:08.900 I haven't been to these meetings.

00:28:10.040 I'm not saying that everything that has ever been said there has been bad and unbiblical.

00:28:13.700 And so I'm sure that there is a benefit to it.

00:28:16.600 He does say something that I agree with, that parents, Christian parents of kids who come

00:28:22.880 out to them as trans or gay or whatever, that they do need community.

00:28:28.020 They do need to see that there are other Christian parents who are going through the same thing.

00:28:32.280 They do need to know that they can find community and prayer and encouragement and steadfastness

00:28:38.340 and faithfulness from their Christian friends.

00:28:40.920 They shouldn't be isolated.

00:28:42.560 Satan loves to keep us isolated.

00:28:44.320 That's how he robs us of our hope and of our joy and even our determination to obey the

00:28:51.580 Lord.

00:28:51.840 So I agree with that, that there needs to be community for parents who are going through

00:28:57.140 going through the same thing, which is their child coming out to them in a certain way.

00:29:02.980 Now, he does say this.

00:29:04.160 He says, you shouldn't be criticizing us, all these people out here, probably myself included.

00:29:09.220 You should be learning from us.

00:29:10.840 Maybe that's true in some ways.

00:29:12.420 I think that there are churches that should get better about being able to talk about this

00:29:16.060 openly that should be a safe place, a biblically safe place for people to talk about these

00:29:22.340 struggles that can absolutely feel very shameful.

00:29:26.520 And he says this helps parents not feel isolated, unequipped.

00:29:30.620 Agree with that.

00:29:31.400 He talks more about Lynn and Greg McDonald.

00:29:34.380 Again, I'm sure that there are a lot of things, Lynn and Greg McDonald, the people who started

00:29:38.660 embracing the journey, I'm sure that there's a lot of things that we agree on.

00:29:41.280 He describes them as Christian conservatives or conservative Christians.

00:29:44.400 I'm not saying that everything that they say or everything that they've done has been wrong

00:29:47.860 or harmful or anything like that, but it does seem, based on what people have said about

00:29:52.540 this conference, based on what people say about their ministry, that it leans affirming.

00:29:56.760 And so you can tell me if you're out there and you think that's absolutely wrong and they

00:30:00.080 are 100% steadfast on the biblical definition of marriage and gender, and they are very clear

00:30:05.560 about sin and the importance of repentance from sin.

00:30:07.760 You can tell me if I am wrong about that or about my assessment.

00:30:13.540 He said the purpose of the conference wasn't to equip parents to debate with kids, but to

00:30:16.660 connect with them, and to keep their kids connected to Jesus.

00:30:21.060 Of course, I'm all for that.

00:30:22.920 I absolutely believe in trying to, as much as you can, maintain relationships with your

00:30:27.520 kids who are wayward in any way or who do or say anything that you disagree with insofar

00:30:34.260 as you are obeying the Lord.

00:30:36.440 Insofar as you are obeying the Lord.

00:30:39.200 Insofar as you are not compromising on the truth.

00:30:43.480 Um, because when you see some of the stories that were platformed, um, people who are affirming,

00:30:51.520 who are in relationships that are gay, parents who have embraced same-sex relationship, not

00:30:58.240 just tolerated, but, like, embraced and celebrated the same-sex relationships of their kids.

00:31:02.500 These are the stories that were platformed at this, uh, at this conference reportedly.

00:31:06.720 Uh, that's actually, these are stories of sadness and hopelessness for a lot of Christians.

00:31:12.160 Like, understand that.

00:31:13.320 Like, these are, these are not happy stories for a lot of Christians who are being told,

00:31:18.620 basically, as parents that, look, either you affirm and accept and you celebrate the choices,

00:31:24.480 the lifestyle that your child is making, or you are going to ruin your relationship with

00:31:29.540 them, and that's absolutely the last thing that you want to do.

00:31:31.820 No, the last thing that we want to do is disobey God.

00:31:33.760 The last thing that we want to do is displease God.

00:31:37.280 Now, the ideal, of course, is to maintain forever a loving and a close relationship with

00:31:43.240 your kids and obey the Lord.

00:31:45.040 That's every parent's hope.

00:31:46.060 That's every Christian parent's hope.

00:31:47.720 But if one has to give, which I pray and ever does, worst nightmare, worst nightmare for parents

00:31:53.940 to have to choose between these things.

00:31:56.680 If one has to give, either it's obey the Lord or get my child to like me.

00:32:04.060 And to be okay with my perspective.

00:32:07.140 And you've got to go with obeying the Lord.

00:32:08.700 That's the call for the Christian. 0.95

00:32:10.840 That's part of the dying to self.

00:32:13.980 It's the most, I think, one of the most difficult things that Jesus says that if you're not willing

00:32:17.640 to hate your father or mother, your brother or sister, if you're not willing to hate these

00:32:23.880 people, then you are not worthy of following me.

00:32:26.200 Now, of course, again, the hope is that it never comes to that.

00:32:29.300 I do believe in trying to maintain those relationships as much as possible.

00:32:33.520 But if something has to give, if you're going to go with one or the other, it has to be obeying

00:32:40.360 the Lord who is kinder and better and wiser than we are.

00:32:44.560 Um, the message seems to be from Andy Stanley that homosexuality, sexual gender issues are

00:32:59.200 something that cannot be fully repented of.

00:33:03.080 That you cannot be fully sanctified from these things.

00:33:10.140 It just seems to me, and I'll talk about this more in a second, that Andy Stanley thinks that

00:33:14.760 these sexual and gender issues, um, are unique.

00:33:17.820 Like, that they are, and they are unique in a sense, and that sexual sin is a sin against

00:33:23.080 your, is a sin against yourself.

00:33:24.960 That's biblical.

00:33:26.080 But that they can't be fully repented of, which is why I think he platforms people like

00:33:31.980 Justin Lee and, uh, his, his partner and, um, why they've spoken at their church several

00:33:39.280 times.

00:33:39.560 And this is what Andy Stanley has to say about that.

00:33:41.480 This is why Justin and Brian were invited, the two married gay men at the center of all

00:33:47.520 the controversy.

00:33:48.160 And I'm sure that you've read all about that.

00:33:50.220 And here's the thing about Brian and Justin, their stories and their journeys of growing

00:33:56.020 up in church and maintaining their faith in Christ and their commitment to follow Christ

00:34:02.140 all through their high school and college and singles and all up to the time that they

00:34:07.160 were married, their story is so powerful for parents of gay, especially kids, that it's

00:34:13.840 the story gay parents with gay kids need to hear. 0.78

00:34:18.440 Again, that's not encouraging for Christian parents who desperately want their children 1.00

00:34:23.860 to hold to a sexual ethic because they know that God's way is better.

00:34:27.440 So what he's saying is that two men who are in a romantic relationship, one of whom leads

00:34:31.400 an organization aimed at encouraging Christians to be LGBTQ affirming.

00:34:35.520 These are the examples to set before the church to encourage Christian parents.

00:34:40.220 That's what Andy Stanley is saying.

00:34:41.380 As far as we can tell from the state of their relationship currently, these two men are

00:34:45.940 unrepentant.

00:34:46.960 So that means that they reject God's authority when it comes to sex, marriage, gender, their

00:34:51.560 relationships, completely reject it and say, no, thank you, Jesus.

00:34:55.560 I think that I know best.

00:34:57.280 I'm going to go my own way, do my own thing.

00:34:59.800 As all of us sinners, by the way, have done at one point, as all of us did before Christ,

00:35:05.520 but this, Andy Stanley says, is supposed to be equipping and encouraging to Christian

00:35:09.100 parents.

00:35:10.480 This is the best outcome that Christian parents can hope for, that their children profess to 0.99

00:35:14.400 love a God whose parameters and boundaries and definitions that they reject and rebel

00:35:17.840 against.

00:35:19.300 Again, not encouraging for Christians who believe that God is wiser and better and more compassionate 1.00

00:35:26.840 and that his ways actually have a purpose.

00:35:29.160 And therefore, the longing of their hearts is for their children to know and to follow that

00:35:33.280 God with their whole lives, as difficult as it may be.

00:35:38.140 He says that they can offer a perspective for straight parents on what their gay kids

00:35:41.900 in church are thinking.

00:35:42.820 I have no doubt about that.

00:35:45.180 But you know what?

00:35:45.980 So can other Christian men and women who decided not to reject God and his word, but instead

00:35:51.020 to abide by it.

00:35:52.760 And I just think about what about some of the incredible guests that I've had on this show?

00:35:59.060 I've had the privilege of talking to.

00:36:01.000 I think of Laura Perry.

00:36:02.260 She was a maternity leave episode. 0.71

00:36:04.140 So this came out just a couple weeks ago.

00:36:06.420 She wandered, as you heard probably in her testimony, so far from the Lord and her parents

00:36:13.120 while she transitioned, quote unquote, to try to be a man. 0.73

00:36:16.720 And then because of God's kindness and because of her parents' relentlessness in praying for

00:36:22.580 her and speaking truth to her, she was brought back to a place of repentance and restoration.

00:36:28.800 Go listen to that testimony if you haven't already.

00:36:31.540 Her parents never wavered.

00:36:33.320 They never compromised.

00:36:35.260 And because of that, because they continued to tell her God's word and to tell her the

00:36:40.340 gospel and to tell her God's truth while also being kind to her and loving her and all

00:36:44.720 of their church friends did, she was brought back to a place of repentance.

00:36:49.360 I think of Christopher Yuan, whom we've had on this podcast a couple of times.

00:36:52.440 He's a former drug dealer. 0.90

00:36:54.220 He was reveling at the time in the promiscuous gay lifestyle. 1.00

00:36:57.200 He was saved in prison thanks to the Holy Spirit and the prayers of his newly converted

00:37:01.140 Christian parents.

00:37:02.660 He is not married to a woman now, but has, by God's grace, chosen to live a life of sexual 0.99

00:37:08.080 purity that honors the Lord.

00:37:09.460 The same is true of Beckett Cook.

00:37:11.200 Or what about Rosaria Butterfield?

00:37:13.220 And I'll get to her response to all this in a second.

00:37:15.820 She is the former queer theory professor, former lesbian, who tried every way she could, 0.99

00:37:22.960 you know, 20 plus years ago to unite her homosexuality with her Christianity. 0.88

00:37:27.320 But the Holy Spirit, because this is what he does, he wouldn't let her do it.

00:37:34.040 Because when Christ takes over, he takes over everything.

00:37:37.720 Over time, he kills sin, he kills sin, and he kills sin, and he sanctifies, and he molds,

00:37:46.240 and he changes.

00:37:47.020 He's a king taking dominion over your heart, and your mind, and your soul, and yes, your

00:37:53.020 sexuality.

00:37:55.060 And this is just as true in all of us as it is true with people who wrestle with same-sex

00:38:00.680 attraction or gender confusion.

00:38:02.300 We are all being rid of our sin.

00:38:04.640 We are all being called to die to self.

00:38:06.140 We are all called to repentance.

00:38:07.500 We are all called to sexual purity.

00:38:09.420 That doesn't mean that we will never sin again.

00:38:11.600 That doesn't mean that we will never have sinful feelings, that we will never have sinful

00:38:16.140 attractions.

00:38:16.700 That doesn't mean that we will never be tempted.

00:38:19.460 Of course, that is true from now until glory.

00:38:23.300 But Jesus is sanctifying us and helping us to resist sin.

00:38:28.440 That is the calling of every single Christian.

00:38:33.100 So he responded to a question, Andy Stanley did, about why he chose not to include someone

00:38:40.420 like Rosaria Butterfield at this conference.

00:38:42.660 Why was it only from one perspective?

00:38:44.120 Like, why didn't you talk to Christopher Yuan or Breckitt Cook or these people?

00:38:48.340 Why weren't they invited?

00:38:49.960 Obviously, they've experienced this.

00:38:51.440 And he has a very interesting response that I'll get to.

00:39:05.860 So in a public Q&A session, he was asked this.

00:39:08.560 He was asked about, I guess, Beckett Cook, Christopher Yuan, Rosaria Butterfield.

00:39:13.140 Stan, this is according to churchleaders.com.

00:39:15.100 Stanley criticized the three authors, claiming that their advice isn't, quote, pastoral, adding

00:39:19.720 that they only spoke about the issue from a 30,000-foot view.

00:39:23.860 Stanley explained that he decided to reference those three because of the criticism he received

00:39:28.540 for not inviting any of them to speak at the conference.

00:39:32.520 Why were they invited?

00:39:33.500 He said, because, in my opinion, they have nothing helpful to say to parents.

00:39:39.400 Now, if you have heard Christopher Yuan's story, you will know that his story is wrapped up

00:39:48.780 in his mom's story, that their testimonies are intertwined.

00:39:52.880 I mean, he wrote a book with his mom about this.

00:39:55.820 And I think his mom would be an excellent person to share her wisdom.

00:40:01.060 I mean, how she prayed for him and just wanted him so badly to repent of his sin and to know

00:40:06.840 Christ and to hear the gospel and to understand it.

00:40:09.980 I think that she would offer a lot of wisdom.

00:40:12.940 Beckett Cook also talks a lot about his parents.

00:40:15.100 Now, Rosaria Butterfield, she came out later in life, so maybe that's a little bit different,

00:40:20.020 but they certainly have a lot of wisdom to share.

00:40:22.040 It's really hard not to think that the only reason they weren't invited is because they

00:40:25.100 don't affirm it.

00:40:26.600 I mean, you see that.

00:40:27.760 Andy Stanley, right?

00:40:28.520 Like, you see why people would think that?

00:40:30.740 That you only didn't invite them, not because they don't have something to say.

00:40:33.260 Of course they have something to say.

00:40:34.720 Of course they have something to say.

00:40:35.920 They're Christians who have struggled with same-sex attraction, who all lived actively

00:40:40.780 gay lifestyles. 0.94

00:40:41.640 Of course they have something to say.

00:40:42.900 Don't you see how people would maybe see their exclusion and think, wow, you just didn't

00:40:48.640 want to include them because they're not gay affirming. 0.98

00:40:51.020 You didn't want to include them because they talk about repentance.

00:40:56.200 Rosaria Butterfield had something to say to that.

00:40:59.300 She said this in a podcast with Josh Dawes, The Great Awakening podcast.

00:41:08.760 She said this, you just kind of wonder whether any of these people ever took a logic class,

00:41:13.280 she added, saying that the teaching presented at the Unconditional Conference was based on

00:41:16.580 emotional manipulative analogies.

00:41:19.220 You need to be shepherded by a shepherd who is actually doing battle against the forces

00:41:23.560 of darkness, not inviting the forces of darkness into your church for tea.

00:41:27.820 No one says it like Rosaria Butterfield.

00:41:30.280 She's so good.

00:41:31.320 I'm here to tell you that there's only one person who doesn't want people to repent of

00:41:35.720 their sin, and that's Satan.

00:41:38.140 Well, I would say there's a lot of people, and I'm sure she would agree with this, there's

00:41:42.420 a lot of people who don't want you to repent of your sin, but it's all motivated by Satan.

00:41:47.480 Absolutely.

00:41:49.000 Butterfield went on to rebut the idea that the Unconditional Conference offered anything

00:41:52.740 that could be commended, saying you can't wrench some kind of a good application from

00:41:58.380 a Satan-drenched theology.

00:42:01.100 Like, she is so, she's so sharp.

00:42:03.580 Go back and listen to my conversation with her, where she refutes some of the things

00:42:08.880 said by people who use pronoun politeness, who are, who say that it's respectful to use

00:42:16.200 the preferred pronouns of someone, even though you know that they are not biologically accurate.

00:42:20.220 She's just, she's so good.

00:42:21.940 And even her original response to Jen Hatmaker, when Jen Hatmaker came out as gay affirming back 0.53

00:42:26.900 in 2014 or 15, and her response to Rosaria Butterfield's response in the Gospel Coalition,

00:42:31.580 she's so good.

00:42:33.180 She's so good at just so clearly explaining the Gospel.

00:42:38.940 And then there was a pastor and author, Sam Albury, is same-sex attracted, but adheres

00:42:45.140 to a traditional sexual ethic.

00:42:46.760 Here's in part what he said for Christianity Today, which I was proud of Christianity Today

00:42:50.220 for publishing this because it's not normal.

00:42:52.360 The problem at the Unconditional Conference is not just that inappropriate speakers were

00:42:55.740 platformer that Stanley gave at best mixed messaging about sexual sin.

00:43:02.060 North Point as a whole is implicated.

00:43:05.820 So he just goes on to talk about how it was completely unbiblical conference that affirmed

00:43:10.620 sin rather than calling people to repentance, which is the most loving thing that you can

00:43:17.380 possibly do.

00:43:18.780 So, okay, here is another snippet of what Andy Stanley said, and I'll respond to it.

00:43:25.160 Many are convinced that traditional marriage is not an option for them.

00:43:28.940 So they commit to living a chaste life, an old-fashioned word.

00:43:34.360 And for many men and women who put their faith in Christ, they just decide, okay, I'm just going

00:43:39.580 to buckle down.

00:43:40.300 I'm just going to bear down.

00:43:41.860 I'm just going to be by myself.

00:43:43.200 I'm not going to have family.

00:43:44.020 I'm going to be sexually pure.

00:43:46.400 And many, many, many, many do that for long seasons of time.

00:43:49.940 And for some, it's their whole life.

00:43:52.880 But for many, that is not sustainable.

00:43:58.720 And so they choose a same-sex marriage, not because they're convinced it's biblical.

00:44:05.520 They read the same Bible we do.

00:44:07.840 They chose to marry for the same reason many of us did.

00:44:11.840 It's love, companionship, and family.

00:44:18.080 Hmm.

00:44:19.080 Okay.

00:44:19.960 It's just not sustainable.

00:44:23.020 And so they choose to get married.

00:44:24.680 I think he's right that they choose to get married, or what they would call marriage.

00:44:29.140 Again, I say that because only God can define marriage, and God defines marriage only one 0.61

00:44:34.140 way, and that is between one man and one woman. 1.00

00:44:36.120 So I know it's kind of the colloquial term that we use, and legally, it is deemed a marriage.

00:44:41.660 But it is not by the real definition of marriage.

00:44:44.660 So it's a union.

00:44:45.640 They have a wedding.

00:44:46.400 They celebrate it.

00:44:47.240 But it is not by God's definition.

00:44:49.020 The God who created marriage, actually, a marriage.

00:44:51.700 And so he says that they choose, quote-unquote, marriage for companionship and love.

00:44:55.460 And I absolutely believe that's true.

00:44:56.980 I do not think it's true that they don't think it's biblical.

00:44:59.680 I absolutely think that people who say, I'm a Christian, and I'm going to embrace the

00:45:03.520 gay lifestyle, that they do try very hard to reconcile those two things, and that there 0.91

00:45:07.660 are many, many speakers, many of whom speak at the unconditional conference, that are willing

00:45:11.280 to tell them, yes, these two things can go together.

00:45:13.640 They can be reconciled.

00:45:15.460 I take such issue with what he says here, that it is not sustainable.

00:45:22.160 Repentance from sin is not sustainable?

00:45:25.240 What's the point of any of this?

00:45:27.680 Like, this is the one sin that Jesus is not powerful enough to sanctify you of?

00:45:34.340 That he is going—this is the one sin that if you struggle with this sin, Jesus is going

00:45:38.980 to let go of your hand?

00:45:40.400 He's not going to protect you?

00:45:41.720 He's not going to help you?

00:45:42.780 That the Holy Spirit is really powerful, but not powerful enough to help you from acting

00:45:47.240 upon your feelings of same-sex attraction?

00:45:52.880 That God is not strong enough for that?

00:45:56.500 That God's omnipotence is limited by a man being attracted to a man or a woman thinking 0.84

00:46:03.140 that she is a man?

00:46:05.420 What kind of God is that?

00:46:07.800 What kind of Holy Spirit is that?

00:46:09.540 That is not strong enough to sustain you as you are tempted in your sexuality?

00:46:15.720 How sad.

00:46:16.620 That's not good news, Andy Stanley.

00:46:18.460 That's not good news.

00:46:20.320 It's not good news.

00:46:21.820 If there is a sin that the Holy Spirit cannot protect me from, cannot convict me of, and

00:46:28.480 cannot help me resist, if there is a sin out there that is stronger than God, then what's

00:46:34.960 the point of all of this?

00:46:37.180 Like, is that the gospel?

00:46:38.500 Is that the gospel?

00:46:40.080 That Jesus died for some of your sins?

00:46:41.980 That you can die to yourself almost?

00:46:47.100 That Jesus can almost help you resist sin, but not this one?

00:46:53.880 It's not good news.

00:46:55.640 It's really bad news.

00:46:56.740 But it goes back to his erroneous belief, his unbiblical belief that you are your feelings,

00:47:04.380 that you are who you're attracted to, and you're not, that you're not.

00:47:11.060 He says multiple times that if someone's same-sex attraction, that their same-sex attraction is

00:47:15.640 who they are.

00:47:17.260 But this is a secular definition of same-sex attraction.

00:47:21.460 Never does the Bible say that our desire, that our feelings, that who we're attracted

00:47:25.540 to is some immutable, irresistible identity, a central part of who we are that must be placed

00:47:32.760 on a prominent spot in our life.

00:47:34.580 That is not biblical, that is a secular, psychological idea, that our desires, that our thoughts,

00:47:42.240 our feelings, that our wanting, that our attractions are who we are.

00:47:46.320 That's how we get these terms like gender identity or sexual orientation.

00:47:50.920 The world believes that.

00:47:53.140 The world believes that what you feel and whom you want is who you are.

00:47:58.620 And the Bible categorically rejects that idea, rejects the idea that same-sex attraction is

00:48:03.520 somehow more a part of your core identity than other kinds of sinful attractions or other

00:48:09.280 kinds of thoughts and desires.

00:48:12.860 Stanley, he says, and I'll actually play the clip of him saying this, but I want to say this

00:48:18.720 first.

00:48:19.020 He says that this is a category in and of itself, that this is the one thing, I guess,

00:48:26.040 that Christ cannot help you resist.

00:48:30.280 Dr. Michael Brown, he tweeted about an interaction that he had with Andy Stanley, and he asked Andy

00:48:37.480 Stanley, is all same-sex behavior a sin?

00:48:42.100 And Dr. Michael Brown said that he will not say that.

00:48:46.120 He will not say that, but rather he said that sometimes ministry preempts clarity.

00:48:53.940 That sometimes ministry, according to Dr. Michael Brown, this is what Andy Stanley told him,

00:49:00.400 preempts clarity.

00:49:02.120 That's a problem.

00:49:04.120 That's a problem.

00:49:05.640 If you really love people and you love God and you believe that God is good and you believe that

00:49:10.520 God is loving, then that means that you believe his word is true.

00:49:16.360 That means that we will trust him when he says that homosexuality is a sin, something that we have 1.00

00:49:23.900 to resist, something that we have to be sanctified of.

00:49:27.040 That means we are going to believe him when he gives us the definition of holy sexuality,

00:49:30.920 when he gives us the definition of marriage, that his ways are better and higher than ours.

00:49:37.020 What is ministry if it is not that?

00:49:41.420 The truth is, is that people who leave the church,

00:49:46.880 people who leave the church because of sexual sin or sexual confusion or gender identity,

00:49:52.820 who say, I just can't be a Christian,

00:49:55.200 maybe they say it's because of a bad experience.

00:49:57.520 Maybe they say it's because the church isn't affirming.

00:50:00.580 Maybe they say it's because my parents want me to repent of my sin and I don't want to,

00:50:04.580 or my mom threw Bible verses at me and I didn't like that.

00:50:07.700 And maybe that's part of their unattraction to the church.

00:50:11.720 But they are running, essentially, ultimately, fundamentally,

00:50:16.220 away from what all sinners are running away from,

00:50:19.160 from what we all ran away from at one point, and that is John 14, 6.

00:50:23.700 That Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life,

00:50:25.500 and that no one can come to the Father except through him,

00:50:28.120 and that following him actually means dying to ourself,

00:50:30.740 taking up our cross, and following Christ.

00:50:33.340 That is what every single person, no matter your attraction,

00:50:36.180 no matter your temptation, no matter your sin struggle,

00:50:38.860 is essentially running from.

00:50:43.400 That is it.

00:50:45.060 It's not all of the, what Andy Stanley would call, clobber verses.

00:50:48.420 It is essentially the gospel.

00:50:53.180 It is the call to repentance.

00:50:54.580 That is what all of us are running from when we are running from Christ.

00:51:01.080 Let me play you one last, one last clip from Andy Stanley.

00:51:06.160 All of us have felt shame about things we've done.

00:51:09.740 All of us have felt shame about things we haven't done.

00:51:12.640 But I bet you've never carried shame about who you are.

00:51:19.640 That's the difference.

00:51:21.660 And when people say to me, well, Andy, it's just like, I just stop him.

00:51:24.680 I say, no, this is not like anything.

00:51:28.100 This is an is.

00:51:29.700 It is a category all unto itself.

00:51:34.740 I got a lot to say to that.

00:51:36.080 The Bible has a lot to say to that.

00:51:37.300 So Andy Stanley says that that is, that that's a category in and of itself,

00:51:55.440 that gender confusion or sexual attraction is a category in and of itself,

00:51:59.260 that no one can relate to it, that no one can compare one sin to this sin.

00:52:04.900 This is the sin, the sin.

00:52:07.820 That Christ cannot help you or a lot of people resist.

00:52:11.720 It's not sustainable to remain in a place of chastity or repentance for many people,

00:52:18.400 he says, many Christians, he says, if they struggle with this.

00:52:22.080 This is its own category.

00:52:23.200 But the Bible does not put this in its own category.

00:52:26.440 He doesn't.

00:52:27.260 Let's look at 1 Corinthians 6, 9 through 11.

00:52:31.720 And I know maybe he would call this a clobber verse, but it is God's word.

00:52:36.200 It's God's word and God is love.

00:52:37.800 First John 4, 8.

00:52:38.520 So what he says is always going to be more loving than what we think.

00:52:43.020 So 1 Corinthians 6, 9.

00:52:45.460 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

00:52:49.920 Do not be deceived.

00:52:51.140 Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 0.96

00:52:57.200 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers who inherit the kingdom of God. 0.97

00:53:02.680 God, listen, here's the good news.

00:53:05.420 Here's the good news.

00:53:06.280 Andy Stanley, do not miss this.

00:53:09.240 And such were some of you.

00:53:12.500 Such were some of you.

00:53:14.800 But you were washed.

00:53:17.540 You were sanctified.

00:53:18.380 You were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

00:53:24.220 I just want to give hope to anyone who was struggling with any sin,

00:53:27.180 whether it's same-sex attraction or whether you were confused about your gender,

00:53:31.580 whatever it is, whatever sin you struggle with,

00:53:35.060 that this is possible for you, that Christ can save you,

00:53:37.820 that he can save you from your sin,

00:53:40.240 that he can bring you to a place of repentance,

00:53:42.640 that you can walk in purity by the power of the Holy Spirit.

00:53:45.680 And such were some of you.

00:53:47.480 But you were sanctified.

00:53:48.780 You were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

00:53:53.640 That is possible.

00:53:54.780 And you know why I know it's possible?

00:53:56.140 Not just because of this verse, but I look at Ephesians 2.

00:53:59.080 Ephesians 2 says that you were dead in sin apart from Christ.

00:54:04.260 You were led by the Prince, the power of the air,

00:54:06.300 the Spirit that is alive and working in the sons of disobedience.

00:54:09.600 You were dead.

00:54:11.200 But by grace, you have been saved through faith and were made alive in Christ.

00:54:18.080 So you're telling me that this gospel,

00:54:21.260 that this Holy Spirit can make a man who is spiritually dead alive by grace through faith,

00:54:28.380 but it can't help someone resist same-sex attraction?

00:54:32.820 Like, it can raise dead people to life.

00:54:35.900 It can save sinners from hell,

00:54:37.600 but it cannot sustain a person in a place of repentance for the rest of their lives.

00:54:43.080 I don't know about that.

00:54:46.920 I don't know about that.

00:54:48.500 That doesn't sound like good news to me.

00:54:51.200 It doesn't sound like the gospel to me.

00:54:54.240 Now, he talks about a few more things.

00:54:58.320 He talks about a family whose son came out to them,

00:55:03.920 sent Andy Stanley an email that they are very thankful for the resources that North Point gave them.

00:55:09.940 And she talks about, this is kind of just an aside,

00:55:12.660 but she talks about how she was a NICU nurse and how she saw babies who had ambiguous genitalia

00:55:19.840 and that that has made her feel a lot more understanding for people who struggle with gender confusion.

00:55:24.700 And the fact, this is actually important because the fact that Andy Stanley brought this up shows,

00:55:28.700 it shows that this woman who wrote this email and Andy Stanley himself,

00:55:31.980 because he read this to his congregation, do not understand.

00:55:34.880 You don't understand what transgenderism is. 0.63

00:55:36.680 It has nothing to do with people who are born with ambiguous genitalia,

00:55:40.800 who, by the way, are still male or female.

00:55:44.460 They're still male or female.

00:55:45.780 They're not both.

00:55:46.580 Their insides, it's not, their DNA is not confused.

00:55:50.580 These are disorders that have nothing to do with gender identity,

00:55:54.240 have nothing to do with transgenderism.

00:55:56.240 That is not what the movement is about.

00:55:57.700 That's not what the debate is about.

00:55:58.860 That's not where the threat comes from.

00:56:00.280 That's not where the danger is.

00:56:01.660 That's not where the confusion lies at all.

00:56:03.200 That is a complete red herring that has nothing to do with transgenderism. 0.57

00:56:06.980 It's not part of the LGBT and the LGBTQ+.

00:56:10.180 Okay?

00:56:10.920 That is completely different than what people are talking about

00:56:13.620 when they are afraid of grown men going into women's bathrooms, 0.98

00:56:17.080 which absolutely happens,

00:56:18.000 of being housed in women's prisons and domestic abuse shelters

00:56:20.660 and boys playing against girls in sports

00:56:23.740 and children, minors, young women, 0.99

00:56:26.380 getting their healthy breasts cut off 0.98

00:56:27.900 because they think they're the opposite sex. 0.99

00:56:29.320 Okay?

00:56:29.620 It's not about babies with ambiguous genitalia.

00:56:33.040 So, to me, that just shows a lot of confusion

00:56:36.200 on the entire issue.

00:56:39.200 And I do think that that matters.

00:56:42.060 There's a lot more that I could talk about

00:56:43.980 when it comes to this.

00:56:45.280 There's a lot more that I could talk about when it comes to this sermon.

00:56:47.920 He does say, just to give him credit,

00:56:49.620 that they do teach that you should live a life of sexual purity,

00:56:55.820 that you should not be having sex before marriage, 0.78

00:56:57.680 or you should not sexualize relationships outside of marriage.

00:57:01.240 Maybe he could talk to some of the people that attend his church

00:57:04.620 who are LGBTQ,

00:57:06.100 who affirm that,

00:57:07.640 and who are living that lifestyle,

00:57:09.160 if they also agree with that.

00:57:10.860 Because I haven't seen that.

00:57:12.340 I have not seen someone who was like,

00:57:13.860 yeah, I believe that God thinks that gay marriage is holy, 0.87

00:57:16.640 and I am also saving all sexuality for marriage.

00:57:20.200 I haven't seen that.

00:57:22.240 They typically go together.

00:57:23.760 If you're going to reject something so major in the Bible

00:57:26.680 as the definition of marriage,

00:57:27.880 you tend to reject the sexual ethic altogether.

00:57:31.560 But he does,

00:57:32.460 I am glad that he teaches that.

00:57:33.920 I'm glad that he teaches that.

00:57:35.140 I'm glad that his church teaches that.

00:57:36.220 He does say that marriage is between a man and a woman.

00:57:39.060 That's great.

00:57:39.700 That deserves, I think, the entire sermon.

00:57:42.680 I think clarity is so important.

00:57:44.800 He says that ministry preempts clarity.

00:57:47.340 I think that clarity is necessary for proper ministry.

00:57:51.180 I mean, in a world of chaos and confusion,

00:57:53.220 people are desperate for clarity.

00:57:55.060 We are desperate to know what God's word actually says

00:57:58.360 about these very confusing issues.

00:57:59.980 And God is better than us.

00:58:01.560 He's more loving than us.

00:58:03.340 Because Andy Stanley is an amazing communicator,

00:58:05.940 I think that he would probably appreciate the alliteration

00:58:08.480 that we've been using on Relatable for probably five years,

00:58:11.600 plus years now.

00:58:13.120 God's definition of marriage.

00:58:14.580 You could probably say it.

00:58:15.360 I feel like a teacher that everyone out there driving,

00:58:17.520 walking, washing your dishes,

00:58:19.020 that you can repeat what I'm,

00:58:21.180 or that you can tell me what I'm about to say.

00:58:23.100 God's definition of marriage is what?

00:58:25.580 Rooted in creation as we see in Genesis 1.

00:58:28.500 It is reiterated throughout scripture as we see in,

00:58:31.500 for example, honor your father and mother.

00:58:34.480 Rather, it is representative of Christ and the church 0.96

00:58:37.720 as we read so beautifully in Ephesians 5.

00:58:39.600 And therefore, it is reflective of the gospel.

00:58:42.200 The Bible starts with the marriage and ends with a marriage, 0.96

00:58:45.500 the marriage between Adam and Eve

00:58:46.680 and the marriage between Christ and his church.

00:58:49.360 That matters.

00:58:50.340 It's not just a verse in Leviticus.

00:58:52.200 It's not just a verse in Romans 1.

00:58:53.800 It's not just a verse in 1 Corinthians 6.

00:58:56.280 All of those verses absolutely do matter.

00:58:59.060 They tell us what not to do.

00:59:00.460 But actually, God paints a beautiful picture

00:59:02.620 of what we are to do.

00:59:04.780 A union between a man and a man 0.98

00:59:06.460 cannot reflect Christ and the church.

00:59:08.080 Therefore, it's not a marriage.

00:59:09.760 It's not a marriage between the bridegroom and the bride.

00:59:13.320 Those gender designations are purposeful. 0.99

00:59:16.120 They actually have meaning.

00:59:17.120 They have eternal and spiritual value.

00:59:19.820 That is what we should be teaching people

00:59:21.580 because that's what God created.

00:59:23.280 And again, God is love.

00:59:24.800 We are not, we cannot out-love God, Auntie Stanley.

00:59:27.620 You can't out-compassion God.

00:59:29.160 You can't out-goodness him.

00:59:31.380 You can't out-empathy him.

00:59:33.660 The God who is love also created us, male and female.

00:59:36.960 The only loving thing that we can do

00:59:38.980 is to affirm that over and over again

00:59:40.720 and platforming people that say,

00:59:42.720 yes, you can be a Christian

00:59:44.100 and actively rebel against God and his design.

00:59:47.260 That is not loving.

00:59:48.720 That is not Christ-like ministry.

00:59:50.460 I think that you probably get it right

00:59:52.000 in a lot of different areas,

00:59:53.180 but this is a big one.

00:59:54.620 I think, I think in a lot of ways,

00:59:57.200 you have gotten wrong.

00:59:58.200 So that's all I have to say about that.

01:00:13.320 Okay, that's all we've got for today.

01:00:14.780 Tomorrow, we'll finally talk about Israel-Palestine.

01:00:17.300 We'll have a guest to kind of break things down for us,

01:00:19.620 but I do just want to encourage you guys

01:00:21.340 to go out and see The Blind.

01:00:22.820 This is the real story of Phil and Kay Robertson,

01:00:25.980 how they came to Christ.

01:00:27.740 And you've heard him tell his testimony on my show.

01:00:30.300 You've probably heard him on his show,

01:00:32.380 The Unashamed podcast.

01:00:33.920 They're amazing people.

01:00:35.360 I love how Phil Robertson shares the gospel.

01:00:38.240 It is so clear and so simple, so compelling.

01:00:41.080 And their story is really amazing.

01:00:42.720 Their testimony is incredible.

01:00:44.240 Go out, support this movie.

01:00:45.940 It's a great way to just send a message

01:00:47.960 that we want these kinds of God-glorifying projects, movies.

01:00:52.740 So go to blazetv.com slash The Blind. 0.85

01:00:56.420 You can buy it today for $19.99.

01:00:58.380 That's blazetv.com slash The Blind.

01:01:00.820 All right, thanks guys so much for listening and watching.

01:01:03.220 We'll see you back here tomorrow.

01:01:04.120 We'll see you next time.

01:01:14.000 We'll see you next time.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - November 08, 2023

Ep 904 ｜ My Response to Andy Stanley's LGBTQ Sermon

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