Ep 904 ｜ My Response to Andy Stanley's LGBTQ Sermon
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 1 minute
Words per Minute
170.85342
Summary
Pastor Andy Stanley hosted a conference called The Unconditional conference that many have accused him of being gay affirming. In this episode, Allie gives her thoughts on this conference, as well as Andy s explanation of this conference.
Transcript
00:00:00.900
Pastor Andy Stanley hosted a conference called the Unconditional Conference that many are
00:00:09.440
I am finally giving you my thoughts, my commentary on this conference, and also Andy Stanley's
00:00:17.520
This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
00:00:36.380
Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far.
00:00:38.620
Okay, we're finally getting into this Andy Stanley LGBTQ sermon.
00:00:44.840
I said several weeks ago on Instagram that I was going to give you my response on it,
00:00:54.100
And so I'm kind of glad I did wait, though, because now I've really had time to think about
00:00:58.980
it, and I'm able to give a proper, thoughtful, more thoughtful response on the podcast.
00:01:07.440
There have been so many Christians, so many people that have reacted to it and have given
00:01:13.340
So I'm not sure that I'm going to say anything that you haven't already heard, but for a lot
00:01:18.120
of you, this is the only podcast that you listen to, and you've been waiting on my reaction
00:01:22.860
to the sermon, and so I wanted to be sure to give you my thoughts.
00:01:27.280
And just so you know, a couple things I want to say.
00:01:30.560
I have listened to this sermon now three times, and so I'm not attempting to take anything
00:01:39.900
I listened very thoroughly, and I was hoping to be pleasantly surprised by the sermon.
00:01:44.800
As you will hear, I was not pleasantly surprised.
00:01:46.820
I was very saddened by what I heard, and I'll explain why.
00:01:50.620
But I really listened to it from a place of hoping to be able to understand and hoping
00:01:59.000
that the crux of the message would be something that I would be able to agree with.
00:02:03.980
As you will hear, there are parts of this sermon that I did agree with.
00:02:09.420
But I really think it missed the mark in a very, very big and eternal way, actually.
00:02:14.540
And just so you know, I have reached out to Pastor Andy Stanley.
00:02:18.880
We reached out, our team did, in the hopes that he would come on the show, and he was
00:02:27.300
I certainly don't accept every interview invitation that I receive.
00:02:32.300
But I genuinely did want to have a conversation with him because I like a lot of what Andy
00:02:38.580
I mean, let's just acknowledge that he is an excellent communicator.
00:02:41.820
I think there is a lot that we can learn from him when it comes to communication.
00:02:46.700
He might be one of the best communicators that I know.
00:02:52.080
I think that there are many pastors that can learn from Andy Stanley's communication style
00:02:58.080
and the way he is able to simplify very complex ideas.
00:03:09.220
As someone who is always seeking to do that myself, to simply and concisely, and maybe
00:03:14.440
not concisely, but clearly explain something that's complicated, I very much appreciate
00:03:19.340
However, there are some major theological things that I disagree with him on.
00:03:23.860
And one of them is how he talks about the issue, if you will, of LGBTQ.
00:03:30.080
Before we actually get into the sermon, let me back up a little bit and explain to you
00:03:36.820
why we're talking about this, why he even gave the sermon that he did.
00:03:41.760
So several months ago, there were headlines that were published.
00:03:46.680
I first saw it, I think, in the Christian Post that there was a conference that Andy Stanley's
00:03:52.140
church, North Point Community Church, major church in Atlanta, has campuses in different
00:03:56.780
areas, that they would be hosting a conference called the Unconditional Conference.
00:04:01.700
And the Unconditional Conference was supposed to be for parents of those who identify as LGBTQ.
00:04:13.940
So this was to provide resources for them, community for them in a way that was meant to ensure
00:04:21.720
that these parents could maintain or restore relationships with their children.
00:04:25.980
The stated purpose was also to make sure that these parents were equipped to show the
00:04:31.520
children, their children, the love of God, the love of Christ, it says, to build bridges
00:04:37.060
between LGBTQ plus individuals, their families, and the church, not in spite of the Bible, but
00:04:42.200
because of the Bible, drawing parents and children into a deeper relationship with each other
00:04:50.140
So this is by Embracing the Journey, which is a ministry that was founded by people named
00:04:58.460
Greg and Lynn McDonald, and they have experiences, we will talk about Andy Stanley explained, as
00:05:05.600
Christian parents with a son who came out as gay.
00:05:08.720
And so their ministry kind of initiated this conference, helped build this conference, and
00:05:15.640
so their mission was also the mission of the Unconditional Conference.
00:05:19.120
Now, the reason why this was making headlines was because of some of the people who were
00:05:26.280
And I will get into this a little bit more, but some of the people were seen as very
00:05:31.980
Even Greg and Lynn McDonald themselves were seen by many people as controversial because
00:05:38.900
And this son is now, I believe, still engaged to be married, or maybe in what they would
00:05:46.640
They have a picture with their entire family, including the fiancé, on the website of the
00:05:51.700
ministry that says, you know, this is a picture of our family, including our son's fiancé.
00:05:56.400
And so it caused a lot of people to raise their eyebrows and ask the question, is this couple
00:06:05.260
And then someone that people have fewer questions about, but more concerns about, was a person
00:06:11.480
named Justin Lee, who is in what some would call a gay marriage.
00:06:22.460
He runs an organization that seeks to reconcile Christianity and particularly evangelicals with
00:06:34.240
And so, of course, people looked at some of these speakers, in particular, Justin Lee
00:06:39.540
and his partner, Brian, and said, well, is this a gay affirming conference?
00:06:48.580
This is a little bit troubling for someone who says that he holds to the definition of
00:07:00.380
There were a couple more speakers that were speaking and then pulled out of the conference
00:07:06.100
But I was particularly troubled, disturbed by the invitation or the platforming of a man
00:07:13.400
who claims to be an active Christian and is living an active gay lifestyle.
00:07:18.760
Apparently, he was seen as a trusted, good, reputable, even biblical resource for Christian parents
00:07:26.940
whose kids have come out as gay or confused about their gender.
00:07:39.020
And he is the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville.
00:07:45.680
He is a big name in the SBC, has been for a very long time.
00:07:50.020
And he wrote an article for World Magazine that says,
00:07:56.460
Andy Stanley doubles down on his departure from biblical Christianity.
00:08:04.780
The Train is Leaving the Station, Andy Stanley's Departure from Biblical Christianity.
00:08:13.360
And it's not like we have not seen this coming.
00:08:15.280
In the coming days, Andy Stanley is set to host the unconditional conference
00:08:18.080
at a campus of North Point Community Church in the metro Atlanta area.
00:08:21.380
And the website for the conference bills it as a two-day premiere event,
00:08:32.180
as you hear from leading communicators on topics that speak to your heart, soul, and mind.
00:08:37.760
And then they promised a, quote, unquote, quieter middle space.
00:08:43.980
This might appear attractive given the volatility of cultural discourse on LGBTQ issues
00:08:48.460
and a conference designed to help parents of these children and ministry leaders
00:08:51.580
work through these issues in clearly biblical terms would be a welcome development.
00:08:57.220
The advertising for the unconditional conference indicates clearly that this event
00:09:00.480
is designed as a platform for normalizing the LGBTQ revolution
00:09:04.420
while claiming that the conference represents the quieter middle space.
00:09:07.460
In truth, there is no middle space on these issues,
00:09:09.640
and it is no longer plausible to claim that such middle space exists.
00:09:14.800
Then he goes on to talk about some of these speakers,
00:09:19.440
one of whom I just described to you, Justin Lee,
00:09:22.460
and what he would call his husband, Brian Neetzel.
00:09:25.700
Then he also says another major speaker is David Gushie,
00:09:28.380
a prominent intellectual who has been honest about his own change of mind
00:09:31.420
on the moral status of LGBTQ plus behaviors and relationships.
00:09:34.740
In the definitive edition of his book, Changing Our Mind,
00:09:38.820
subtitled as A Landmark Call for Inclusion of LGBT Christians,
00:09:43.900
he traces his own pilgrimage to eager LGBTQ advocacy.
00:09:49.020
So that was another speaker at this event hosted by Andy Stanley and his church.
00:09:59.040
From what we see, at least on the roster of speakers,
00:10:01.720
there weren't anyone who would actually represent.
00:10:04.000
I don't even know if I would call it the conservative theological position on marriage,
00:10:08.200
but just the historic belief of marriage, the biblical definition of marriage.
00:10:14.720
It was an affirming conference, at least what we could see from the website.
00:10:21.240
And then Albert Miller goes on to say that Andy Stanley is one of the most influential pastors
00:10:27.400
in the United States, and that he goes through some of the controversies
00:10:31.300
that he's been embroiled in over the years based on some of the things that he has said.
00:10:37.240
One of the quotes that I thought was interesting that Albert Miller pulled was,
00:10:42.120
like if there's somebody you can't minister to because of your theology,
00:10:48.560
as we look at some of the things that Andy Stanley said in his sermon that we're about to get into.
00:10:56.960
And so Albert Miller goes on to say that, you know,
00:11:01.700
Maybe the conference won't actually be affirming.
00:11:04.940
Maybe it's something totally different than it's being advertised,
00:11:08.360
but that would be a really big change from what we are actually seeing at the website.
00:11:12.660
So the sermon that Andy Stanley preached is in response to this article.
00:11:21.360
So we'll get in to that as well as what actually happened at the conference,
00:11:26.000
which happened before Andy Stanley gave his sermon responding to this Albert Miller article.
00:11:42.660
All right, so Andy Stanley was not happy about this article published in September by Al Mohler,
00:11:49.520
But he responded to it after this unconditional conference that Al Mohler wrote his article about.
00:11:55.960
So let me tell you a little bit about that conference.
00:12:01.380
I wasn't planning to attend the conference, just to be perfectly honest.
00:12:04.200
But I can tell you some of the reaction to that conference by people who were there.
00:12:14.500
And I think that's probably as close as we can get to a proper understanding of what actually went down.
00:12:24.260
And so there was an attendee who talked about his experience on Twitter.
00:12:30.140
His name is Zach Lambert, and he is a progressive.
00:12:34.080
I believe he's a pastor, but he gives a lot of progressive commentary on Twitter or X.
00:12:39.960
And his biblical interpretation is very progressive, very liberal.
00:12:46.460
He attended the conference because he wanted to see what it was about.
00:12:49.240
So here's what he had to say about Andy Stanley's unconditional conference.
00:12:52.740
He said, I was at the now infamous unconditional conference last week at Andy Stanley's North Point Church,
00:12:59.640
I went to be with some dear friends, but more than that, I want to see if this conference would be yet another bait and switch,
00:13:04.380
a space that claimed to be safe and supportive of the LGBTQ plus folks,
00:13:07.700
but was actually all about telling them they need to leave behind their sexual orientation and or gender identity to fully follow Jesus.
00:13:20.540
They explicitly communicated that they were not trying to change anyone's theology, and they didn't.
00:13:25.160
But every speaker, video, book, and breakout, I saw fully affirmed LGBTQ folks.
00:13:34.800
I saw pastors advocating for inclusion, parents welcoming their children's same-sex partners into the family,
00:13:39.520
trans folks sharing their transition stories, and queer people leading at literally every level.
00:13:46.540
So it's interesting because, as we'll talk about, Andy says, this was not a conference to change people's minds,
00:13:52.660
to debate, to change people's theology, and yet it was.
00:13:57.160
I'm sure that if a conservative person walked into that room or someone who held to the tenets of biblical sexuality
00:14:05.080
and all they heard was affirmation, affirmation, affirmation, what is that but an attempt to persuade in a particular direction?
00:14:15.480
But if everyone is coming from a particular perspective, that is persuasion.
00:14:20.760
Even if someone is not pointing their finger at you and saying, you must believe this.
00:14:26.480
He knows the power of communication and persuasion.
00:14:29.240
And, of course, if you have everyone presenting one particular position, that is going to be persuasive.
00:14:37.840
It wasn't something where they were having an interesting and nuanced discussion about what position to take,
00:14:45.920
It was just one position, one perspective, which is that of, according to this person, affirmation.
00:14:52.940
And then he said, on Sunday, Andy preached a sermon explaining why North Point hosted the conference.
00:15:01.200
He said, North Point still teaches that biblical marriage is between one man and one woman.
00:15:06.660
Andy Stanley does say that in his sermon that we're about to get into in 48 minutes of advocating for full inclusion of LGBTQ plus folks in the church.
00:15:15.140
Andy said this is an issue where they don't want to draw lines that exclude,
00:15:17.940
but circles that fully include everyone, married, gay folks, trans folks, and everyone else.
00:15:25.120
So that is someone who attended the conference, who was a progressive, who was very happy with the conference that everyone was affirming.
00:15:33.200
Now, one of the conference speakers, Brian Neetzel, he is the guy who was a quote unquote husband to Justin Lee,
00:15:39.020
another conference speaker who Andy Stanley platforms and actually says in his sermon that Brian and Justin have talked multiple times at North Point Church.
00:15:50.840
Here's something that he says in a tweet thread after the conference.
00:15:55.200
He said this, he quoted a gay affirming pastor in his thread that says,
00:16:02.440
I've come to realize that LGBTQ plus people are the ones who are going after the sheep that lost their way.
00:16:11.220
Consider that LGBTQ plus people may be our rescuers,
00:16:15.280
that they are the ones who can help us back to God's love by showing us where we have gone wrong.
00:16:22.340
So this was one of the conference speakers. This is what he believes.
00:16:25.460
That was not his quote. He's quoting someone else saying that,
00:16:28.060
but he put that in his tweet as something that he appreciates and believes.
00:16:30.920
This was someone who spoke at Andy Stanley's conference, someone who is in a quote unquote gay marriage.
00:16:37.620
There's so much wrong with this quote, replacing Jesus,
00:16:42.200
who is supposed to be the shepherd that finds the lost sheep with gay people.
00:16:47.940
But you are saying that people who are living in act of sin and rebellion against God's word,
00:16:53.160
that they are actually the shepherd going after the lost sheep who are the non-affirming people.
00:16:59.320
This is the kind of person that spoke at this conference.
00:17:01.960
Okay, let's get in to the actual sermon by Andy Stanley, responding to all the criticism,
00:17:09.340
talking about the conference, responding in particular to Al Mohler.
00:17:15.340
So he talks about, he just brings up, he doesn't say Dr. Mohler's name.
00:17:21.360
He just says, there's a very influential Christian leader who wrote this article about me that I think is so terrible.
00:17:29.060
And it's called, The Train is Leaving the Station, Andy Stanley's Departure from Biblical Christianity.
00:17:37.880
And then here's what he has to say about Albert Mohler and the article.
00:17:41.420
His version of Biblical Christianity is the problem.
00:17:47.640
His version, this version of Biblical Christianity is why people are leaving Christianity unnecessarily.
00:17:54.080
It's the version that causes people to resist the Christian faith
00:17:58.840
because they can't find Jesus in the midst of all the other stuff and all the other theology
00:18:03.540
and all the other complexity that gets globbed on.
00:18:09.940
He goes on to say that Jesus did not draw lines.
00:18:14.740
That he and Dr. Mohler do not have the same version of Christianity
00:18:18.520
and that Dr. Mohler's version of Christianity is actually what is pushing people away.
00:18:23.800
So what's ironic about this is that he accuses Dr. Mohler of being divisive.
00:18:31.500
He accuses Dr. Mohler of creating fault lines, I guess, where there shouldn't be
00:18:43.260
He's drawing a big line, not just between himself and Dr. Mohler.
00:18:47.040
He is apparently drawing a really big line between himself
00:18:50.560
and everyone who believes the same thing that Dr. Mohler does,
00:18:54.600
which is, of course, the biblical definition of sexuality and gender and marriage.
00:19:00.000
I mean, talk about drawing a line by saying that someone who does not subscribe
00:19:05.440
to the same doctrines that you do, the same beliefs that you do,
00:19:18.420
So you draw circles, but Dr. Mohler is the one who stands outside of the circle.
00:19:27.100
He goes on to basically explain why they had this unconditional conference.
00:19:34.160
Then he goes back to 2011, where he says that there was an issue that the church was facing,
00:19:39.020
that middle school and high school leaders, that the ministry leaders of the middle school
00:19:45.620
and high school ministries at North Point Community Church came to Andy and said,
00:19:49.160
look, our small group leaders don't know how to deal with students who are coming out to them.
00:19:57.700
So can we create some kind of curriculum, some kind of toolkit to give these kids so they know
00:20:02.340
how to respond to these students who are coming out to them?
00:20:07.060
And Andy Stanley said, yes, we should absolutely, that we should absolutely do this.
00:20:13.640
And he goes on to explain, which I think is true, how difficult it is for a young Christian
00:20:19.280
kid to realize that they have feelings of same-sex attraction.
00:20:22.500
He goes on to explain that a lot of these kids do not want this, that they're terrified
00:20:26.500
by the feelings that they find themselves having, that they pray it away, and they hope that
00:20:33.980
And when they do finally work up the courage to tell someone that they're telling these
00:20:38.520
small group leaders and these small group leaders don't know what to say, but they should
00:20:45.520
I do think kids that wrestle with these feelings are terrified.
00:20:49.440
They do feel alone and that Satan wants them to stay alone.
00:20:57.220
I do think it is wonderful that they felt safe enough, that they felt secure enough at
00:21:03.360
their church, that they were coming to their small group leaders, that they were coming
00:21:06.360
to church leaders and saying, hey, here's what's going on in my heart and mind and body.
00:21:15.120
I think we can empathize with those feelings of confusion and those feelings of fear and
00:21:22.140
And I also agree with what Andy Stanley says when he says, the church should be the safest
00:21:27.140
place for students to talk about anything, including same-sex attraction.
00:21:32.860
I agree with that, except I would ask, what is actually meant by the word safe?
00:21:39.760
By safe, do you mean that they are going to receive love, biblical love, which is inextricably
00:21:54.260
It's okay to embrace feelings of same-sex attraction.
00:21:59.120
It's okay to embrace a different identity that is the opposite of your biological sex.
00:22:06.620
If you just mean that, yes, they are going to receive kindness, they are going to receive
00:22:11.700
love and gentle admonition and truth and someone to walk alongside them and disciple them as
00:22:18.540
they learn to walk in repentance, as we all must do, no matter what our struggles are, then
00:22:24.580
But if by safe you mean affirming, then I cannot agree with that because it is not loving ever
00:22:29.900
to affirm the thing that is going to kill someone, which is sin, which is sin, all sin.
00:22:35.440
Um, here's what he has to say when he is explaining kind of the plight of these students who are
00:22:43.320
Depending on the church that they attend, they are literally afraid they are going to hell.
00:22:50.540
Not because of anything they've done, but because of who they are, because of the message,
00:23:02.160
Hmm, I have a lot to say to those last few words.
00:23:18.400
So Andy Stanley right there, and this is something that he says in a few different ways a few times
00:23:23.160
throughout this sermon that I think is the fundamental flaw of all of this and is actually
00:23:28.220
upstream from a lot of the other things he says that I just disagree with.
00:23:31.780
They feel shame not for something that they've done, but for who they are.
00:23:51.440
And yes, thoughts, lust, desire for same-sex attraction, that is a sin.
00:24:00.780
Romans 1 actually explains that very well, that these are sinful desires.
00:24:06.080
And so no, these students are not ashamed of who they are because they are not their thoughts.
00:24:14.880
These are sinful inclinations that they all have because we all have sinful thoughts.
00:24:19.620
We all have sinful attractions to some things or sinful temptations.
00:24:29.980
Because if you say that this is their identity, then you tell them that this is inescapable,
00:24:34.840
that this is a core part of you and your identity.
00:24:45.000
What they are ashamed of, they are ashamed of their temptations.
00:24:55.300
That is a very scary and fearful feeling, absolutely.
00:25:03.300
And that is so important, I think, to separate our identity from the sexual feelings that we
00:25:08.340
have, from the sexual attraction that we have, from whatever confusion that we have.
00:25:16.040
Someone who is in Christ, someone who is a Christian, has been bought with a price by
00:25:25.380
I mean, 1 Corinthians 6, 19 through 20 is very relevant here.
00:25:29.380
Or do you not know that your body, your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you,
00:25:37.300
You are not your own, for you were bought with a price.
00:25:43.700
For whatever struggle you have, for whatever temptation you have, whatever feelings or
00:25:47.280
attractions you have, that you are not those things.
00:25:50.280
That you are in Christ, if you are a Christian, bought with a price, you are indwelled by the
00:26:01.080
You are no longer mastered by those desires, mastered by those feelings, because you were
00:26:06.000
bought with a price, which is the blood of Christ.
00:26:08.720
So you can, you have the power to, with the Holy Spirit that is in you, glorify God in your
00:26:16.680
All of us can through the power of the Holy Spirit.
00:26:23.840
And we are all ashamed in one way or another of maybe the struggles we have had in the past
00:26:31.220
But no, Andy Stanley, your attraction is not who you are.
00:26:37.760
I also noticed that in this vein, he often says LGBTQ plus, and he states that as an identity.
00:26:54.980
The plus really means that it can be anything because we're not even putting the letters
00:27:02.240
I think that we have to be very careful using our language.
00:27:05.900
Are you really saying that everything in the plus falls under this umbrella of someone's
00:27:14.440
So anyway, I think that's the premise that he's starting from.
00:27:17.980
And that is why there are so many, I think, really big theological errors in what he says.
00:27:24.000
So he talks about parent connect because of this problem, which I think is a real issue
00:27:28.640
and a real thing that churches do have to confront honestly and biblically, though, is that there
00:27:33.780
are going to be students wrestling with same-sex attraction.
00:27:36.420
There are going to be students confused about their gender.
00:27:38.760
And now more than ever, there are going to be students who do not see any problem with
00:27:43.160
And I agree that ministry leaders absolutely have to be equipped to talk to these kids
00:27:48.700
in love and kindness and biblical truth, by the way.
00:27:53.340
They started Parent Connect, and they wanted to equip parents to talk about these issues
00:27:59.380
Christian parents talk about these issues with their kids.
00:28:10.040
I'm not saying that everything that has ever been said there has been bad and unbiblical.
00:28:16.600
He does say something that I agree with, that parents, Christian parents of kids who come
00:28:22.880
out to them as trans or gay or whatever, that they do need community.
00:28:28.020
They do need to see that there are other Christian parents who are going through the same thing.
00:28:32.280
They do need to know that they can find community and prayer and encouragement and steadfastness
00:28:44.320
That's how he robs us of our hope and of our joy and even our determination to obey the
00:28:51.840
So I agree with that, that there needs to be community for parents who are going through
00:28:57.140
going through the same thing, which is their child coming out to them in a certain way.
00:29:04.160
He says, you shouldn't be criticizing us, all these people out here, probably myself included.
00:29:12.420
I think that there are churches that should get better about being able to talk about this
00:29:16.060
openly that should be a safe place, a biblically safe place for people to talk about these
00:29:22.340
struggles that can absolutely feel very shameful.
00:29:26.520
And he says this helps parents not feel isolated, unequipped.
00:29:34.380
Again, I'm sure that there are a lot of things, Lynn and Greg McDonald, the people who started
00:29:38.660
embracing the journey, I'm sure that there's a lot of things that we agree on.
00:29:41.280
He describes them as Christian conservatives or conservative Christians.
00:29:44.400
I'm not saying that everything that they say or everything that they've done has been wrong
00:29:47.860
or harmful or anything like that, but it does seem, based on what people have said about
00:29:52.540
this conference, based on what people say about their ministry, that it leans affirming.
00:29:56.760
And so you can tell me if you're out there and you think that's absolutely wrong and they
00:30:00.080
are 100% steadfast on the biblical definition of marriage and gender, and they are very clear
00:30:05.560
about sin and the importance of repentance from sin.
00:30:07.760
You can tell me if I am wrong about that or about my assessment.
00:30:13.540
He said the purpose of the conference wasn't to equip parents to debate with kids, but to
00:30:16.660
connect with them, and to keep their kids connected to Jesus.
00:30:22.920
I absolutely believe in trying to, as much as you can, maintain relationships with your
00:30:27.520
kids who are wayward in any way or who do or say anything that you disagree with insofar
00:30:39.200
Insofar as you are not compromising on the truth.
00:30:43.480
Um, because when you see some of the stories that were platformed, um, people who are affirming,
00:30:51.520
who are in relationships that are gay, parents who have embraced same-sex relationship, not
00:30:58.240
just tolerated, but, like, embraced and celebrated the same-sex relationships of their kids.
00:31:02.500
These are the stories that were platformed at this, uh, at this conference reportedly.
00:31:06.720
Uh, that's actually, these are stories of sadness and hopelessness for a lot of Christians.
00:31:13.320
Like, these are, these are not happy stories for a lot of Christians who are being told,
00:31:18.620
basically, as parents that, look, either you affirm and accept and you celebrate the choices,
00:31:24.480
the lifestyle that your child is making, or you are going to ruin your relationship with
00:31:29.540
them, and that's absolutely the last thing that you want to do.
00:31:31.820
No, the last thing that we want to do is disobey God.
00:31:33.760
The last thing that we want to do is displease God.
00:31:37.280
Now, the ideal, of course, is to maintain forever a loving and a close relationship with
00:31:47.720
But if one has to give, which I pray and ever does, worst nightmare, worst nightmare for parents
00:31:56.680
If one has to give, either it's obey the Lord or get my child to like me.
00:32:13.980
It's the most, I think, one of the most difficult things that Jesus says that if you're not willing
00:32:17.640
to hate your father or mother, your brother or sister, if you're not willing to hate these
00:32:23.880
people, then you are not worthy of following me.
00:32:26.200
Now, of course, again, the hope is that it never comes to that.
00:32:29.300
I do believe in trying to maintain those relationships as much as possible.
00:32:33.520
But if something has to give, if you're going to go with one or the other, it has to be obeying
00:32:40.360
the Lord who is kinder and better and wiser than we are.
00:32:44.560
Um, the message seems to be from Andy Stanley that homosexuality, sexual gender issues are
00:33:03.080
That you cannot be fully sanctified from these things.
00:33:10.140
It just seems to me, and I'll talk about this more in a second, that Andy Stanley thinks that
00:33:14.760
these sexual and gender issues, um, are unique.
00:33:17.820
Like, that they are, and they are unique in a sense, and that sexual sin is a sin against
00:33:26.080
But that they can't be fully repented of, which is why I think he platforms people like
00:33:31.980
Justin Lee and, uh, his, his partner and, um, why they've spoken at their church several
00:33:39.560
And this is what Andy Stanley has to say about that.
00:33:41.480
This is why Justin and Brian were invited, the two married gay men at the center of all
00:33:50.220
And here's the thing about Brian and Justin, their stories and their journeys of growing
00:33:56.020
up in church and maintaining their faith in Christ and their commitment to follow Christ
00:34:02.140
all through their high school and college and singles and all up to the time that they
00:34:07.160
were married, their story is so powerful for parents of gay, especially kids, that it's
00:34:13.840
the story gay parents with gay kids need to hear.
00:34:18.440
Again, that's not encouraging for Christian parents who desperately want their children
00:34:23.860
to hold to a sexual ethic because they know that God's way is better.
00:34:27.440
So what he's saying is that two men who are in a romantic relationship, one of whom leads
00:34:31.400
an organization aimed at encouraging Christians to be LGBTQ affirming.
00:34:35.520
These are the examples to set before the church to encourage Christian parents.
00:34:41.380
As far as we can tell from the state of their relationship currently, these two men are
00:34:46.960
So that means that they reject God's authority when it comes to sex, marriage, gender, their
00:34:51.560
relationships, completely reject it and say, no, thank you, Jesus.
00:34:59.800
As all of us sinners, by the way, have done at one point, as all of us did before Christ,
00:35:05.520
but this, Andy Stanley says, is supposed to be equipping and encouraging to Christian
00:35:10.480
This is the best outcome that Christian parents can hope for, that their children profess to
00:35:14.400
love a God whose parameters and boundaries and definitions that they reject and rebel
00:35:19.300
Again, not encouraging for Christians who believe that God is wiser and better and more compassionate
00:35:29.160
And therefore, the longing of their hearts is for their children to know and to follow that
00:35:33.280
God with their whole lives, as difficult as it may be.
00:35:38.140
He says that they can offer a perspective for straight parents on what their gay kids
00:35:45.980
So can other Christian men and women who decided not to reject God and his word, but instead
00:35:52.760
And I just think about what about some of the incredible guests that I've had on this show?
00:36:06.420
She wandered, as you heard probably in her testimony, so far from the Lord and her parents
00:36:13.120
while she transitioned, quote unquote, to try to be a man.
00:36:16.720
And then because of God's kindness and because of her parents' relentlessness in praying for
00:36:22.580
her and speaking truth to her, she was brought back to a place of repentance and restoration.
00:36:28.800
Go listen to that testimony if you haven't already.
00:36:35.260
And because of that, because they continued to tell her God's word and to tell her the
00:36:40.340
gospel and to tell her God's truth while also being kind to her and loving her and all
00:36:44.720
of their church friends did, she was brought back to a place of repentance.
00:36:49.360
I think of Christopher Yuan, whom we've had on this podcast a couple of times.
00:36:54.220
He was reveling at the time in the promiscuous gay lifestyle.
00:36:57.200
He was saved in prison thanks to the Holy Spirit and the prayers of his newly converted
00:37:02.660
He is not married to a woman now, but has, by God's grace, chosen to live a life of sexual
00:37:13.220
And I'll get to her response to all this in a second.
00:37:15.820
She is the former queer theory professor, former lesbian, who tried every way she could,
00:37:22.960
you know, 20 plus years ago to unite her homosexuality with her Christianity.
00:37:27.320
But the Holy Spirit, because this is what he does, he wouldn't let her do it.
00:37:34.040
Because when Christ takes over, he takes over everything.
00:37:37.720
Over time, he kills sin, he kills sin, and he kills sin, and he sanctifies, and he molds,
00:37:47.020
He's a king taking dominion over your heart, and your mind, and your soul, and yes, your
00:37:55.060
And this is just as true in all of us as it is true with people who wrestle with same-sex
00:38:09.420
That doesn't mean that we will never sin again.
00:38:11.600
That doesn't mean that we will never have sinful feelings, that we will never have sinful
00:38:16.700
That doesn't mean that we will never be tempted.
00:38:23.300
But Jesus is sanctifying us and helping us to resist sin.
00:38:33.100
So he responded to a question, Andy Stanley did, about why he chose not to include someone
00:38:44.120
Like, why didn't you talk to Christopher Yuan or Breckitt Cook or these people?
00:38:51.440
And he has a very interesting response that I'll get to.
00:39:08.560
He was asked about, I guess, Beckett Cook, Christopher Yuan, Rosaria Butterfield.
00:39:15.100
Stanley criticized the three authors, claiming that their advice isn't, quote, pastoral, adding
00:39:19.720
that they only spoke about the issue from a 30,000-foot view.
00:39:23.860
Stanley explained that he decided to reference those three because of the criticism he received
00:39:28.540
for not inviting any of them to speak at the conference.
00:39:33.500
He said, because, in my opinion, they have nothing helpful to say to parents.
00:39:39.400
Now, if you have heard Christopher Yuan's story, you will know that his story is wrapped up
00:39:48.780
in his mom's story, that their testimonies are intertwined.
00:39:52.880
I mean, he wrote a book with his mom about this.
00:39:55.820
And I think his mom would be an excellent person to share her wisdom.
00:40:01.060
I mean, how she prayed for him and just wanted him so badly to repent of his sin and to know
00:40:06.840
Christ and to hear the gospel and to understand it.
00:40:12.940
Beckett Cook also talks a lot about his parents.
00:40:15.100
Now, Rosaria Butterfield, she came out later in life, so maybe that's a little bit different,
00:40:20.020
but they certainly have a lot of wisdom to share.
00:40:22.040
It's really hard not to think that the only reason they weren't invited is because they
00:40:30.740
That you only didn't invite them, not because they don't have something to say.
00:40:35.920
They're Christians who have struggled with same-sex attraction, who all lived actively
00:40:42.900
Don't you see how people would maybe see their exclusion and think, wow, you just didn't
00:40:48.640
want to include them because they're not gay affirming.
00:40:51.020
You didn't want to include them because they talk about repentance.
00:40:56.200
Rosaria Butterfield had something to say to that.
00:40:59.300
She said this in a podcast with Josh Dawes, The Great Awakening podcast.
00:41:08.760
She said this, you just kind of wonder whether any of these people ever took a logic class,
00:41:13.280
she added, saying that the teaching presented at the Unconditional Conference was based on
00:41:19.220
You need to be shepherded by a shepherd who is actually doing battle against the forces
00:41:23.560
of darkness, not inviting the forces of darkness into your church for tea.
00:41:31.320
I'm here to tell you that there's only one person who doesn't want people to repent of
00:41:38.140
Well, I would say there's a lot of people, and I'm sure she would agree with this, there's
00:41:42.420
a lot of people who don't want you to repent of your sin, but it's all motivated by Satan.
00:41:49.000
Butterfield went on to rebut the idea that the Unconditional Conference offered anything
00:41:52.740
that could be commended, saying you can't wrench some kind of a good application from
00:42:03.580
Go back and listen to my conversation with her, where she refutes some of the things
00:42:08.880
said by people who use pronoun politeness, who are, who say that it's respectful to use
00:42:16.200
the preferred pronouns of someone, even though you know that they are not biologically accurate.
00:42:21.940
And even her original response to Jen Hatmaker, when Jen Hatmaker came out as gay affirming back
00:42:26.900
in 2014 or 15, and her response to Rosaria Butterfield's response in the Gospel Coalition,
00:42:33.180
She's so good at just so clearly explaining the Gospel.
00:42:38.940
And then there was a pastor and author, Sam Albury, is same-sex attracted, but adheres
00:42:46.760
Here's in part what he said for Christianity Today, which I was proud of Christianity Today
00:42:52.360
The problem at the Unconditional Conference is not just that inappropriate speakers were
00:42:55.740
platformer that Stanley gave at best mixed messaging about sexual sin.
00:43:05.820
So he just goes on to talk about how it was completely unbiblical conference that affirmed
00:43:10.620
sin rather than calling people to repentance, which is the most loving thing that you can
00:43:18.780
So, okay, here is another snippet of what Andy Stanley said, and I'll respond to it.
00:43:25.160
Many are convinced that traditional marriage is not an option for them.
00:43:28.940
So they commit to living a chaste life, an old-fashioned word.
00:43:34.360
And for many men and women who put their faith in Christ, they just decide, okay, I'm just going
00:43:46.400
And many, many, many, many do that for long seasons of time.
00:43:58.720
And so they choose a same-sex marriage, not because they're convinced it's biblical.
00:44:07.840
They chose to marry for the same reason many of us did.
00:44:24.680
I think he's right that they choose to get married, or what they would call marriage.
00:44:29.140
Again, I say that because only God can define marriage, and God defines marriage only one
00:44:34.140
way, and that is between one man and one woman.
00:44:36.120
So I know it's kind of the colloquial term that we use, and legally, it is deemed a marriage.
00:44:41.660
But it is not by the real definition of marriage.
00:44:49.020
The God who created marriage, actually, a marriage.
00:44:51.700
And so he says that they choose, quote-unquote, marriage for companionship and love.
00:44:56.980
I do not think it's true that they don't think it's biblical.
00:44:59.680
I absolutely think that people who say, I'm a Christian, and I'm going to embrace the
00:45:03.520
gay lifestyle, that they do try very hard to reconcile those two things, and that there
00:45:07.660
are many, many speakers, many of whom speak at the unconditional conference, that are willing
00:45:11.280
to tell them, yes, these two things can go together.
00:45:15.460
I take such issue with what he says here, that it is not sustainable.
00:45:27.680
Like, this is the one sin that Jesus is not powerful enough to sanctify you of?
00:45:34.340
That he is going—this is the one sin that if you struggle with this sin, Jesus is going
00:45:42.780
That the Holy Spirit is really powerful, but not powerful enough to help you from acting
00:45:56.500
That God's omnipotence is limited by a man being attracted to a man or a woman thinking
00:46:09.540
That is not strong enough to sustain you as you are tempted in your sexuality?
00:46:21.820
If there is a sin that the Holy Spirit cannot protect me from, cannot convict me of, and
00:46:28.480
cannot help me resist, if there is a sin out there that is stronger than God, then what's
00:46:47.100
That Jesus can almost help you resist sin, but not this one?
00:46:56.740
But it goes back to his erroneous belief, his unbiblical belief that you are your feelings,
00:47:04.380
that you are who you're attracted to, and you're not, that you're not.
00:47:11.060
He says multiple times that if someone's same-sex attraction, that their same-sex attraction is
00:47:17.260
But this is a secular definition of same-sex attraction.
00:47:21.460
Never does the Bible say that our desire, that our feelings, that who we're attracted
00:47:25.540
to is some immutable, irresistible identity, a central part of who we are that must be placed
00:47:34.580
That is not biblical, that is a secular, psychological idea, that our desires, that our thoughts,
00:47:42.240
our feelings, that our wanting, that our attractions are who we are.
00:47:46.320
That's how we get these terms like gender identity or sexual orientation.
00:47:53.140
The world believes that what you feel and whom you want is who you are.
00:47:58.620
And the Bible categorically rejects that idea, rejects the idea that same-sex attraction is
00:48:03.520
somehow more a part of your core identity than other kinds of sinful attractions or other
00:48:12.860
Stanley, he says, and I'll actually play the clip of him saying this, but I want to say this
00:48:19.020
He says that this is a category in and of itself, that this is the one thing, I guess,
00:48:30.280
Dr. Michael Brown, he tweeted about an interaction that he had with Andy Stanley, and he asked Andy
00:48:42.100
And Dr. Michael Brown said that he will not say that.
00:48:46.120
He will not say that, but rather he said that sometimes ministry preempts clarity.
00:48:53.940
That sometimes ministry, according to Dr. Michael Brown, this is what Andy Stanley told him,
00:49:05.640
If you really love people and you love God and you believe that God is good and you believe that
00:49:10.520
God is loving, then that means that you believe his word is true.
00:49:16.360
That means that we will trust him when he says that homosexuality is a sin, something that we have
00:49:23.900
to resist, something that we have to be sanctified of.
00:49:27.040
That means we are going to believe him when he gives us the definition of holy sexuality,
00:49:30.920
when he gives us the definition of marriage, that his ways are better and higher than ours.
00:49:41.420
The truth is, is that people who leave the church,
00:49:46.880
people who leave the church because of sexual sin or sexual confusion or gender identity,
00:49:55.200
maybe they say it's because of a bad experience.
00:49:57.520
Maybe they say it's because the church isn't affirming.
00:50:00.580
Maybe they say it's because my parents want me to repent of my sin and I don't want to,
00:50:04.580
or my mom threw Bible verses at me and I didn't like that.
00:50:07.700
And maybe that's part of their unattraction to the church.
00:50:11.720
But they are running, essentially, ultimately, fundamentally,
00:50:16.220
away from what all sinners are running away from,
00:50:19.160
from what we all ran away from at one point, and that is John 14, 6.
00:50:23.700
That Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life,
00:50:25.500
and that no one can come to the Father except through him,
00:50:28.120
and that following him actually means dying to ourself,
00:50:33.340
That is what every single person, no matter your attraction,
00:50:36.180
no matter your temptation, no matter your sin struggle,
00:50:45.060
It's not all of the, what Andy Stanley would call, clobber verses.
00:50:54.580
That is what all of us are running from when we are running from Christ.
00:51:01.080
Let me play you one last, one last clip from Andy Stanley.
00:51:06.160
All of us have felt shame about things we've done.
00:51:09.740
All of us have felt shame about things we haven't done.
00:51:12.640
But I bet you've never carried shame about who you are.
00:51:21.660
And when people say to me, well, Andy, it's just like, I just stop him.
00:51:37.300
So Andy Stanley says that that is, that that's a category in and of itself,
00:51:55.440
that gender confusion or sexual attraction is a category in and of itself,
00:51:59.260
that no one can relate to it, that no one can compare one sin to this sin.
00:52:07.820
That Christ cannot help you or a lot of people resist.
00:52:11.720
It's not sustainable to remain in a place of chastity or repentance for many people,
00:52:18.400
he says, many Christians, he says, if they struggle with this.
00:52:23.200
But the Bible does not put this in its own category.
00:52:31.720
And I know maybe he would call this a clobber verse, but it is God's word.
00:52:38.520
So what he says is always going to be more loving than what we think.
00:52:45.460
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
00:52:51.140
Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
00:52:57.200
nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers who inherit the kingdom of God.
00:53:18.380
You were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
00:53:24.220
I just want to give hope to anyone who was struggling with any sin,
00:53:27.180
whether it's same-sex attraction or whether you were confused about your gender,
00:53:31.580
whatever it is, whatever sin you struggle with,
00:53:35.060
that this is possible for you, that Christ can save you,
00:53:40.240
that he can bring you to a place of repentance,
00:53:42.640
that you can walk in purity by the power of the Holy Spirit.
00:53:48.780
You were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
00:53:56.140
Not just because of this verse, but I look at Ephesians 2.
00:53:59.080
Ephesians 2 says that you were dead in sin apart from Christ.
00:54:04.260
You were led by the Prince, the power of the air,
00:54:06.300
the Spirit that is alive and working in the sons of disobedience.
00:54:11.200
But by grace, you have been saved through faith and were made alive in Christ.
00:54:21.260
that this Holy Spirit can make a man who is spiritually dead alive by grace through faith,
00:54:28.380
but it can't help someone resist same-sex attraction?
00:54:37.600
but it cannot sustain a person in a place of repentance for the rest of their lives.
00:54:58.320
He talks about a family whose son came out to them,
00:55:03.920
sent Andy Stanley an email that they are very thankful for the resources that North Point gave them.
00:55:09.940
And she talks about, this is kind of just an aside,
00:55:12.660
but she talks about how she was a NICU nurse and how she saw babies who had ambiguous genitalia
00:55:19.840
and that that has made her feel a lot more understanding for people who struggle with gender confusion.
00:55:24.700
And the fact, this is actually important because the fact that Andy Stanley brought this up shows,
00:55:28.700
it shows that this woman who wrote this email and Andy Stanley himself,
00:55:31.980
because he read this to his congregation, do not understand.
00:55:36.680
It has nothing to do with people who are born with ambiguous genitalia,
00:55:46.580
Their insides, it's not, their DNA is not confused.
00:55:50.580
These are disorders that have nothing to do with gender identity,
00:56:03.200
That is a complete red herring that has nothing to do with transgenderism.
00:56:10.920
That is completely different than what people are talking about
00:56:13.620
when they are afraid of grown men going into women's bathrooms,
00:56:18.000
of being housed in women's prisons and domestic abuse shelters
00:56:29.620
It's not about babies with ambiguous genitalia.
00:56:45.280
There's a lot more that I could talk about when it comes to this sermon.
00:56:49.620
that they do teach that you should live a life of sexual purity,
00:56:55.820
that you should not be having sex before marriage,
00:56:57.680
or you should not sexualize relationships outside of marriage.
00:57:01.240
Maybe he could talk to some of the people that attend his church
00:57:13.860
yeah, I believe that God thinks that gay marriage is holy,
00:57:16.640
and I am also saving all sexuality for marriage.
00:57:23.760
If you're going to reject something so major in the Bible
00:57:27.880
you tend to reject the sexual ethic altogether.
00:57:36.220
He does say that marriage is between a man and a woman.
00:57:47.340
I think that clarity is necessary for proper ministry.
00:57:55.060
We are desperate to know what God's word actually says
00:58:03.340
Because Andy Stanley is an amazing communicator,
00:58:05.940
I think that he would probably appreciate the alliteration
00:58:08.480
that we've been using on Relatable for probably five years,
00:58:15.360
I feel like a teacher that everyone out there driving,
00:58:28.500
It is reiterated throughout scripture as we see in,
00:58:34.480
Rather, it is representative of Christ and the church
00:58:42.200
The Bible starts with the marriage and ends with a marriage,
00:58:46.680
and the marriage between Christ and his church.
00:59:09.760
It's not a marriage between the bridegroom and the bride.
00:59:24.800
We are not, we cannot out-love God, Auntie Stanley.
00:59:33.660
The God who is love also created us, male and female.
01:00:14.780
Tomorrow, we'll finally talk about Israel-Palestine.
01:00:17.300
We'll have a guest to kind of break things down for us,
01:00:22.820
This is the real story of Phil and Kay Robertson,
01:00:27.740
And you've heard him tell his testimony on my show.
01:00:47.960
that we want these kinds of God-glorifying projects, movies.
01:01:00.820
All right, thanks guys so much for listening and watching.