Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 914 ｜ Holistic Parents vs. the State of Iowa ｜ Guest： Emily Donlin

00:00:00.000 An Iowa mother has been accused by the state of using cocaine while she was pregnant with her son and since then has been embroiled in a conflict with DHS over custody of her two boys.

00:00:18.440 She claims she has never done drugs in her life. She doesn't even take pain relievers.

00:00:24.840 So today she's here to tell us her story, what has really gone on, the nightmare of the past few months of trying to protect her family and to protect her sons from the predation of the government.

00:00:36.860 You will be absolutely blown away by this story and there's a lot to learn, I think, from her testimony.

00:00:44.420 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to GoodRanchers.com. Use code Allie at checkout. That's GoodRanchers.com, code Allie.

00:00:54.840 Thank you so much for taking the time to join us. I really appreciate it.

00:01:05.800 Hi, Allie. Thanks. I'm glad. I'm happy to be here.

00:01:08.320 Yeah. So I'm bringing you on to talk about your story, which I originally, I think I saw it on Instagram.

00:01:15.460 You posted a video that just, it broke my heart because you were talking about what happened with your son who is now eight months old.

00:01:24.440 Eight months, yeah.

00:01:25.440 So I'll just kind of give you the floor. Tell us what happened.

00:01:28.760 Yeah. So I've never, I guess, had so many people listening to me. And so if I, bear with me if I have trouble.

00:01:41.800 So my, my son is eight months old. My son, Paul, he was born at the end of March and he was actually born in an unplanned home birth.

00:01:55.360 And we, he was born healthy and it was actually a really, maybe at some point I'll tell that story too. It's really amazing.

00:02:04.600 But he was born and we went into the hospital afterwards to just, you know, make sure everyone is fine and that he's okay.

00:02:12.640 So you didn't plan this. This was just a very precipitous birth. It just happened really fast.

00:02:17.080 Yes.

00:02:17.300 Like, uh-oh. And so he was born at home. That wasn't the intention.

00:02:21.860 Yes. No, that was not the intention. I actually love home birth, but we had some financial struggles.

00:02:31.120 And so we decided to go through insurance and that's why we went through the hospital.

00:02:36.760 But his birth, no, it was not planned to be at home. It actually wasn't precipitous necessarily.

00:02:43.980 It lasted about 10 hours. And my first labor was, I think, 28 hours. And so we really thought we had at least five more hours or something.

00:02:55.100 So you have, you have an older son and how old is he?

00:02:58.440 Yes. He's two and a half.

00:02:59.620 He's two and a half. So this was your second birth. So as you said, it wasn't like it was super fast.

00:03:05.020 You just thought you had more time.

00:03:06.220 Yeah, exactly. And so, uh, we went into the hospital afterwards and everything checked out. Okay.

00:03:12.760 Um, he was perfectly healthy, no concerns or anything. Um, I had some complications in the hospital, but we were able to resolve them.

00:03:21.220 Um, and, uh, then we went home and settled in. And, um, two weeks later, uh, we got a knock on our door unannounced and it was DHS with a sheriff.

00:03:34.000 And they told us that our son tested positive for cocaine and DHS stands for, um, department of health and human services, DHHS.

00:03:44.340 Yeah. So in other, like some places, child protective services, CPS, same kind of thing.

00:03:50.240 Yeah. Um, and so when they knocked on our door, we were completely shocked and blindsided and extremely fearful, uh, because when, when you get a knock on your door from DHS, you just kind of jumped to the, the possibility, um, of them coming to remove your children.

00:04:10.700 So tell us about that moment. You open the door and you see two people or however many, however, however many people as two people that you didn't know, I'm guessing.

00:04:22.620 And they're, you know, I don't know what kind of like official guard they had on probably very serious. Were you just completely confused at first? Were you like, this is, this has got to be a mistake. You've got the wrong person.

00:04:35.280 Yeah. A lot of confusion. Um, I actually was recovering. I hemorrhaged in the hospital after the birth. Um, and so I became anemic and I was, um, you know, obviously had a, a really large, like harder recovery from like my past birth. Um, and so I, I was also like very weak and, um, I had, I was nursing my son.

00:05:01.340 And, and so you can kind of imagine like the hormones and the emotions that are going on at that time. Um, and so, uh, yeah, all of that was going on. And so when we, uh, answered the door, uh, we were very shocked. We were extremely upset. Um, and yeah, we, uh, we kind of just didn't know what to say.

00:05:23.920 And, you know, you say all these things like, well, that's impossible. I've never done cocaine. Um, I've never done cocaine in my life actually. Um, and so they, when they, when you open the door, it did, were there, were there any pleasantries? Like, how did they say, this is why we're here?

00:05:41.760 Um, all I can remember really is that she said, hi, my name is, you know, her name, um, with DHS. Um, and, you know, she asked me, are you Emily Donlan? She said, are, are you the mother of Paul Donlan? And, um, then, uh, I answered yes and yes.

00:06:06.740 And then she said, uh, well, Paul, uh, tested positive for cocaine. And then, uh, yeah, at that point we just kind of said, um, you know, everything we could think of. Um, she, we'll get into more of this, I guess, in a little bit, but, uh, she didn't really like lead us through the, the situation. Um, and so we were kind of like confused, like, what are we supposed to do?

00:06:36.140 So, you know, most people, they don't have, they don't know anything about DHS until they knock on their door. Right. They don't know how they're supposed to react. So now looking back, I would have said, you can wait outside. I'm going to call our lawyer or I'm going to call a lawyer, um, before I let them in. But, um, you know, we, we didn't know that at that point. So.

00:06:57.480 So they came into your house. I'm sure that you were just desperate to prove that this was a mistake. Yeah. Because you said that you've never done cocaine in your life, right? Never. Okay. And I mean, so how did, how did they, and maybe this is what you're about to say, but they said he tested positive for cocaine. How, what did they test?

00:07:21.260 Um, yes. So they, they took an eight to 10 inch sample from, um, my, his umbilical cord. Right. And they, they tested it. Um, they send it to, I don't believe they do the testing at the hospital. They actually send it to a lab.

00:07:37.300 And so then they tested at the lab and received the results. Uh, they, they say this is for continuation of care. So they say, if, if a baby is exposed to cocaine, we, we need to know, or not just cocaine, but drugs in utero. We need to know, uh, what that is so that we can, um, continue to care for the child, uh, through their withdrawal, if they're having it. Um, they, they say that this is the, the purpose of this drug test. Um, however, we did not ever receive any,

00:08:07.300 continuation of care for our child. So there was no call from the hospital following up. They didn't even, they don't even receive. And in our case, they didn't receive the test, um, until seven days after the birth anyway. And so.

00:08:20.500 And the hospital, you didn't get a call from the hospital saying you got this positive test and we need to make sure that your child is okay. You just got the knock on the door from DHS. And that's all they said. They said, tested positive for cocaine.

00:08:35.600 We found it in the umbilical cord and you, I'm sure, as I said, desperate to prove your innocence. You just invited them in. Right. Yeah. And so tell us what happened from there.

00:08:45.680 Yeah. So we had faith that they were going to, uh, obviously, you know, we have nothing to hide, so we're going to let them in. We're going to tell them the story. And, and obviously they're going to see that I didn't do cocaine, that I, that this isn't what happened, you know?

00:09:02.380 And so we, we trusted that, that, that they were going to see that, um, they came in, we, we sat down at our table, our dining table. Um, we told her the whole story of the birth and all that.

00:09:13.220 And, you know, well, could there be a false positive, you know, could there be a mislabel? Could there be all of these things? Um, and, uh, you know, we're a very holistic family.

00:09:23.400 So we, you know, there are several things that we are concerned about ingredients in our food, things that, you know, medications we're taking. I don't even take ibuprofen if I have a headache. Um, I don't give our sons, uh, Tylenol, things like that. So we, we explained all of this to her to try to just let her know who we are and how upsetting this is.

00:09:43.780 And we were also very concerned about the potential baby that was exposed cocaine. If it wasn't my son and it was a mix up, you know, what happened with that baby? Um, and if it, if it is my son, if my son was exposed to cocaine, you know, uh, that's a huge problem for us.

00:10:02.520 Right. And there is no possibility that there was any cocaine in your home.

00:10:08.100 No, none.

00:10:09.540 And so as you were telling them all of this, what was their reaction? Did it seem like they were like, oh yeah, okay. I did. It seemed like they were kind of responsive to what you were saying or.

00:10:20.780 Um, yeah, she seemed pretty responsive. Um, you could tell, you know, uh, she didn't really know what to think. Um, I've, you know, later on, I heard that like they get this all the time.

00:10:32.320 Obviously if somebody tests positive, they say, well, I didn't do it, you know, or it's, it's a false positive. So we had that playing against us. Right. Because many, most people in this situation, if, if they were actually caught doing drugs, they're not going to say, well, this is, yeah, this is true probably the first time.

00:10:50.260 Um, so I think she was kind of confused. Um, but you know, she looked at our home, she asked to see the kids, um, and, you know, obviously there were no safe safety concerns.

00:10:59.960 And, um, typically they would create a safety plan, um, after that from, to my knowledge, but she never created a safety plan. She told us, you know, we don't have any behavioral indicators. So she wasn't concerned about, you know, the situation. Uh, she didn't see any signs of drug use obviously in our home or anything. So, um, so yeah, uh, uh, I think she was confused by this situation.

00:11:23.800 Yeah.

00:11:36.300 So you had denied, um, newborn vaccines, which lots of parents do, um, vitamin K, hep B, the eye ointment. Um, I think I read something about DTAP too, but they don't give that right at birth.

00:11:51.440 I don't think so. No, I think it's the hep B is what they do.

00:11:54.460 Yeah. Um, so did they, did the hospital push back on that? Like, did you feel like they were kind of questioning your abilities as a mother because of your holistic approach? Like, was that playing through your mind when all of this was happening?

00:12:10.100 You know, it's really interesting because I thought that's how it would be. Um, because of, you know, the things you hear, like when you are wanting to do alternative choices like that for your children. Um, but I actually felt, I did feel like they were respectful of all of our choices. Um, we did our, our prenatal care with, they have a really great midwife department at this hospital, which is why we chose this hospital.

00:12:33.580 And, um, um, um, there, you know, a lot of them come from the home birth space, like a more holistic approach. Um, and even the nurses that, that weren't, um, ones that I had interacted with before, I really did feel like I was, I was respected, um, of my choices. Um, I don't know if that's actually true. I mean, it, it sounds like they, they saw a reason to do a drug test on my cord.

00:13:01.520 So maybe it was just a forward facing, like, make me feel good, make you feel like you're respected, but, but really we're going to check a box that you, you are, um, you know, somebody we need to test.

00:13:15.080 Yeah. So let's talk about that for a second, because you kind of were told, I, I remember in your story, you kind of were told conflicting things that, oh, we test everyone to see if their babies have been exposed to drugs for the continuity of care purpose, as you said.

00:13:29.500 Um, but then you also heard, well, no, we only check, we only check babies if we feel like there is cause, if we have a reason to believe that their parents might be on drugs.

00:13:41.380 So did you find out the truth about that? Which one it was? And do you know why they decided to test you?

00:13:49.380 Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I don't, I don't think I really know yet, um, exactly what happened or what they typically do. I have heard that, yes, they test everybody. This is a county hospital also. Um, so keep that in mind. It's government funded. It's also in a very, um, you know, uh, lower income neighborhood. Um, so I, yes, I've heard that they test everyone, but then I have also spoken with my midwife.

00:14:15.380 And she said that, uh, they have indicators, which if you have indicators, you're not testing everyone. Cause why would you have indicators? Yeah.

00:14:24.180 I don't know. That's just a question that I had. Um, the indicators are there's, I believe there's five indicators. Um, I don't know all of them, but I know that in my case.

00:14:32.920 So, um, I was told by the nurse that anybody that, uh, has a baby outside of the hospital, they check it as precipitous labor. So precipitous labor is defined as one to two hours, right? It's a very quick labor. So I was told this by my nurse that, um, you know, that's what they're labeling my birth as is precipitous. And I said, well, you know, um, it wasn't precipitous.

00:14:57.900 Yeah. I labored at 6 PM to from 6 PM the evening before to 6 AM about, and my son was born around like six, six 30, six 40 around there. So I told her this and then she said, well, we, we don't have any other way to label it. So, so then I was labeled, labeled as a precipitous and precipitous labor is an indicator that you should test, um, uh, an umbilical cord or a baby.

00:15:25.060 I didn't know that. I feel like I know a lot of women who have had precipitous labors and I didn't know that that could be an indication. 0.86

00:15:31.960 I don't, I don't know if it's every hospital's policy. I'm not sure. Um, but that's from my experience with this, at least in what I've been told. So precipitous labor is one and then, um, none or no, no prenatal or late prenatal care, um, is also an indicator. Um, and so, uh, I know for sure the precipitous labor one was

00:15:54.780 something that they, uh, had marked me as. Okay. So that's possibly why they tested. Um, and so what

00:16:03.280 happens after the DHS, um, personnel talked to you, how did that conversation end? And then what happened

00:16:11.840 after that? Um, so this whole conversation was so confusing because we kept asking like what the next

00:16:17.400 steps are and like, how, how, how many times are you going to come here? Are we going to be super? Like she,

00:16:23.320 she told us we will go through, um, we will undergo a 20 day investigation. Um, and during which she

00:16:29.680 would then, you know, whatever they always say, she said so many times we're going to create a plan

00:16:35.480 and we kept asking, what is that plan? Yeah. And why do we need, why do we need it? Yeah. And then she

00:16:43.640 would kind of say, well, it could be this, or it could be that she would give us like all of these vague

00:16:47.740 options. Uh, and we would just keep saying like, well, I'm confused. Are you coming every week or

00:16:53.960 not? Or, or what's going on here? And then she said, well, let's create your plan because I'm not

00:17:00.340 creating a safety plan for the children. So let's create your plan. And we're like, okay, well,

00:17:04.100 well, what does that mean? Um, and then, uh, we eventually just decided that my mother, we live in

00:17:11.720 my mom's, um, home. And so we decided that my mother would supervise me with the kids when she

00:17:18.440 was home. And then my husband would supervise me with the kids. And they were telling you that that's

00:17:23.180 what had to happen or else what? Um, honestly, uh, I think at this point we didn't know what the,

00:17:32.960 or else was, we kind of just were so fearful that we just said, you know, Oh, okay. Well,

00:17:41.860 I guess that's the way forward, which looking back, I'm, it sounds, I'm like, I would have done

00:17:48.160 so many things differently now. Um, but in that moment, you know, I mean, we should have recorded

00:17:54.400 the whole meeting. DHS doesn't have to give you any, any, um, documentation of your visits or what's

00:18:00.640 said or what plan is created. Wow. Nothing. And so I, you know, and so we had this, it was probably

00:18:06.420 30 minutes that we sat down with her and we told her that, you know, everything that I've said. And,

00:18:10.500 and she looked at the house, saw the kids, you know, all of these things created the plan, um,

00:18:15.680 and told us about the investigation. Um, and you know, she said, Oh, you know, we would do a random

00:18:22.100 drug test. And, um, yeah, I mean, we, we felt we didn't have any other choice. We just accepted,

00:18:28.680 accepted, accepted that. We also, at this point, we had faith that, you know, um, the truth will

00:18:34.800 come out. Right. Like, like I didn't, I obviously didn't do this. And so somebody is going to see

00:18:39.840 that. Um, and so we, we, we really weren't fearful of this investigation.

00:18:45.520 Okay. So what happened then from there after they left your home?

00:19:02.640 So she left, um, she supposedly did further investigating. She called my midwife and asked, 0.98

00:19:08.800 you know, is this, is it possible there could be a negative drug test? Um, my midwife of course said,

00:19:14.080 no, um, it's impossible. I don't, I don't know if, um, the, if, uh, the social worker was told my

00:19:22.420 midwife about me or if she was just asking, you know, like, well, do any of these tests,

00:19:26.580 you know, come up false positive? So she was told by the hospital that there, that it's impossible for

00:19:32.260 there to be a false positive. Um, and, and then she, I guess, ran a background check on me and,

00:19:38.500 and, you know, made a few other calls or something. Um, and, uh, then probably a couple

00:19:45.660 weeks later, she scheduled a three month hair test, um, which I went in and did and it came

00:19:50.400 back negative. Um, and what is that exactly? How do they, how do they test? They, uh, so they,

00:19:56.060 they take a sample of your hair and they test for, you know, I think it's a five panel or something.

00:20:00.780 So they're testing for all of these drugs and one of them is cocaine and they send it to a lab. Um,

00:20:06.380 and, uh, yeah, so I was negative for all of them. Um, of course. And then, uh, my husband at that

00:20:12.800 point and I, we were like, okay, we're good. Right. We have a three month hair test. Like,

00:20:16.860 of course this will prove that there's some discrepancy here between the tests. Um, and,

00:20:23.220 uh, that was not the case. We were then told that, well, actually the three month hair test had

00:20:27.740 nothing to do with the positive test and proving my innocence. It had everything to do with a second

00:20:32.860 allegation, which we weren't told about. The second allegation was that there were, um, drugs in our

00:20:37.960 home. Nobody has been in our home except for the social worker at that point. So we were thoroughly

00:20:47.800 confused why there would be a second allegation. I asked her, you know, where did this allegation come

00:20:52.920 from? She said, well, you know, sometimes they just attach it to the positive test. Sometimes they

00:20:57.640 don't, I don't know. Okay. So it's kind of arbitrary. So you, they said it had nothing to

00:21:04.380 do with the original accusation that you were taking drugs and that's why it showed up in the

00:21:11.440 umbilical cord, but it had something to do with that. Right. Like, I think like the, it seems like

00:21:16.200 they were making the assumption that the reason that it showed up on the umbilical cord, they say

00:21:21.960 was because you had drugs in the home. This wasn't an allegation that they made

00:21:25.600 afterward. Right. Okay. So it was at the same time, but they had no proof of that. It was just

00:21:31.720 kind of an assumption that you must have drugs in your home. Yeah. Like it is. Yeah. It is assumed

00:21:36.260 if you're taking drugs, you know, and it shows up on the test that there would be drugs in your home

00:21:40.840 at that point. Yeah. Okay. And so they just decided to attach that allegation. So, so they say,

00:21:47.980 they're saying, well, the three month hair test doesn't prove that you don't have drugs in your

00:21:53.380 home. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Or I'm sorry. Sorry. Uh, no, uh, it's saying that actually does prove that

00:21:59.880 we don't have drugs in the home. Oh, the three month. Okay. So, oh, got it. Do you get what I'm

00:22:04.860 saying? Yes. Okay. So it disproves that, but not the original accusation that you were taking drugs at

00:22:10.840 the time that he was being born. Okay. Sorry. It's confusing. No, no. You said it clearly. I

00:22:15.820 just, um, I think I got it mixed up. So continue after that, they were like, Nope, sorry. You're

00:22:22.040 still on the hook for this allegation that we made back here. Yes. Yeah. So they said, well, actually

00:22:26.740 this isn't doing anything to like prove the innocence. We, we can't argue with the doctor.

00:22:31.760 They said several times to me, we can't argue with the doctor. Um, this random doctor that has

00:22:38.140 probably never seen us. Yeah. That's crazy. So the doctor can say anything and the government

00:22:43.380 can't argue with them. That's why apparently, I don't know. That's a good question, but so, uh,

00:22:49.520 so yeah, so she said, well, this has nothing to do with the original positive. Um, but I I'm,

00:22:55.460 but it does, you know, combat the other allegation of, of, of drugs in the home. Um, and so you're not

00:23:01.700 founded for the drugs in the home, but I have to found this case based on the, the positive

00:23:07.840 test. So essentially it was automatically founded from the beginning. Um, and, and so, uh, DHS

00:23:15.520 uses all of this language that, that regular people don't understand and they fail to define

00:23:21.000 it. So we asked this, we asked, you know, what is, um, this, what is founded mean? And we

00:23:27.760 were given this very confusing description of the different levels, um, of, you know, there's

00:23:33.820 not confirmed, then there's confirmed and then there's founded. So not confirmed would

00:23:37.960 be the best case scenario that, Oh, neither of these are confirmed. We can go about our

00:23:42.960 lives. Um, I believe there's, you know, I don't think they hold on to anything. They

00:23:49.240 probably save the report or something, but you know, we're free. We're good. Uh, confirmed

00:23:55.140 means, Oh, it was, it was confirmed, but, um, you know, uh, you're not placed on a registry.

00:24:02.340 I believe that's the, the, the difference. So, okay. So they established the case because

00:24:07.360 of the original allegation. So after that three month hair test, what was your plan?

00:24:13.560 Um, so, so after the three month hair test, we, we, we then that concludes the 20 day

00:24:20.040 investigation. Um, and then we were told that this case will be founded. Um, again, we still

00:24:27.020 didn't really know what that meant. Um, but then probably about a week later we received in

00:24:31.540 the mail, the founded report saying I am founded for a case of child abuse and I am now on the

00:24:38.960 child abuse registry. Oh my goodness. Yeah. I mean, we lost our minds. Never. They have

00:24:45.300 never brought any evidence against you except that they say that they got a positive test

00:24:51.160 from the umbilical cord, but beyond that, that's it. Yeah. Wow. So what did you do when

00:24:56.920 you got that letter? Uh, we, we were just like extremely upset. Obviously we're like, this is

00:25:02.680 wrong. This is crazy. Uh, how did it even go this far? I mean, we, we really had faith that DHS was

00:25:08.620 going to understand the situation, but our social worker just seemed to be like, you know, well,

00:25:12.920 I haven't made a mistake. Um, I can't argue with the doctor, uh, you know, you know, making all of

00:25:18.620 these excuses. I'm just trying to do my job, you know, you know, obviously, or she said,

00:25:22.800 this is an interesting case, but you know, I don't know what to do. She said that several times

00:25:27.460 and yeah, I know. And so anyway, so we were founded and then we were told because of the

00:25:34.440 founded report. Now we, now the next step would be to do, um, voluntary services is what they call it.

00:25:41.120 So these voluntary services aren't actually voluntary. They're, you know, you can volunteer

00:25:46.520 or else I'm going to go to the court and court order you to do these services. So, I mean, they,

00:25:53.480 they like to make you feel good and, and, and, you know, everything's all fine and good, but, uh,

00:25:57.880 if you don't do what we say, what we tell you to do, uh, we're going to take you to court. So, uh,

00:26:03.120 we had some back and forth with our, our social worker about these voluntary services. And, um,

00:26:09.240 what were they? That was our question. Oh, what are they? And she would not,

00:26:14.560 she could not and would not tell us what these services are. And she said, you have to agree to

00:26:19.320 these before, you know, I can order them for you. Well, okay. Well, what do they look like? Can you

00:26:25.900 give us an example? Can you give us what we don't know what these services are? We're, we're utterly

00:26:30.860 confused. What is, what is this service? And my husband kept asking her or saying, you know,

00:26:37.080 I can't agree to something that I don't know what it is. And she said, well, you have to,

00:26:40.460 because there's not, you know, the, the payment has to go through. We have to check the box of

00:26:46.140 agreeing before we can send somebody out here. Somebody needs to get paid.

00:26:51.740 So we, we couldn't get past this with her. We kept saying, you know, well, well, this doesn't

00:26:57.300 make any sense at all. So, um, I don't even know what, do you have any idea? Like what services mean?

00:27:05.540 Like when they say we're going to send someone out there, like, does it mean an investigation?

00:27:09.540 Does it mean like something you have to prove? Is it like an interview with, so the social worker

00:27:16.340 or what? I, I'm just totally ignorant when it comes to that. So our speculation at this point is that, 0.97

00:27:22.260 you know, the, a plan could be all of the, a wide range of things. It could be weekly visits. It could

00:27:29.460 be daily or daily visits. It could be a safety plan. It could be more drug tests. It could be a

00:27:35.040 substance abuse evaluation. So that's what they meant by services. To my understanding now. Okay.

00:27:40.840 Yeah. Um, but I mean, she told us things like, well, we, we have to bring out the next social

00:27:45.940 worker so that they can get to know you. And at this point we lost all faith in DHS. We're like,

00:27:50.760 no, we're not, we're not trying to get to know someone. I'm not interested in getting to know

00:27:55.140 a social worker. Yeah. And, and they, they weren't even here from the beginning. And so they're just

00:28:01.900 going to take what you said as fact with our case. And I don't know what you're saying to validate

00:28:08.560 this founded report. I mean, you, you gotta have some, you probably have to have some explanation

00:28:13.580 on the backend to found a report. Is that right? And, and I don't know what that is. I don't know

00:28:19.360 what she's telling her supervisor, which, why she, why this is okay to found a report. So we were just

00:28:25.440 totally like, you know, no, you got to tell us what these are before we can agree to them. And then

00:28:29.780 she said, well, it sounds like you're declining services when you decline services and you go to

00:28:34.360 China. What? A China case. So it's a child in need of assistance. Oh, okay. So, sorry. I know that

00:28:42.060 sounded. Yeah. Whoa. That's a, that's not to say that's crazy. You go to that before, but this is

00:28:48.300 okay. So child in need of assistance. Yeah. So that is an escalation from where it was just a

00:28:56.580 founded report. So she said, you've got to do these services. I don't know if what you want to

00:29:01.800 keep your child, if you don't want to go to jail, or if you don't want this to get worse, just vague

00:29:07.640 kind of or else. Um, and you didn't, you just wanted to know what the services were. She said,

00:29:13.900 well, we got to send someone out there so someone can get paid before we can actually define what

00:29:18.900 these services are. So you can agree to them. Yeah. And so when you just asked for clarity and said,

00:29:25.400 I'm not going to agree to those until you tell us what they are, she said, you're going to decline

00:29:30.000 this. And then that's where China, the child in need of assistance case came in. So tell us what

00:29:35.460 is different about the, that the child in need of assistance case versus what you had, which was

00:29:41.420 just the founded case with the services. Yeah. So the difference is when you go to a China case,

00:29:47.940 you're moved from, you're moved into the judicial system. So now you're moved into the legal court.

00:29:53.220 um, DHS is able to circumvent the court. Um, this is how they're able to, you know, remove a child

00:30:00.460 without a criminal conviction or anything like that. So they like to keep it outside because they

00:30:06.280 like to, in my opinion, they like to be in control of the situation. Um, and they, they actually,

00:30:13.340 I believe would prefer to not go to a China case. Um, because, uh, then, then they can control 1.00

00:30:20.860 everything that happens. Cause when you go to a China case, obviously there's a judge that,

00:30:24.360 you know, um, oversees everything. So, so, um, but when you go to a China case, um, there's this

00:30:31.240 term, it's called adjudication. Um, I'm not, I'm not super clear on what this is, uh, to the best of

00:30:38.580 my knowledge, adjudication is, is DHS involvement as ordered by the court. And so DHS will come in with

00:30:46.680 recommendations for the family. And then the court will order, uh, if, if the court agrees

00:30:52.800 will order those recommendations. So that could be child removal. That could be, um, you know,

00:30:59.660 other, uh, requirements from DHS, things like that. Um, and so, yeah, it's a, it's an escalation

00:31:07.380 out of this, um, world of DHS into the court.

00:31:11.640 Okay. Gotcha. So after that happened and when she told you that, I'm sure that that worried you

00:31:17.940 just not knowing what that meant. And it sounds like, okay, this is getting more serious. What

00:31:21.320 the heck is going to happen? So first, before we move on to what happened next during this time,

00:31:27.160 how many weeks have passed at this point? So when, so I believe it was probably five weeks

00:31:32.180 when we received the founded report. And were you having to have like supervision

00:31:36.320 with your, when you were with your kids? I mean, your mom and husband. Yeah. That's,

00:31:41.060 that's all we had. Okay. So you, there was no threat at that point of them taking your child

00:31:47.260 or anything like that. You didn't know, but you were able to stay home. He was able to stay with

00:31:53.700 you and all of that. Right. But I can't even imagine the added anxiety during that postpartum period,

00:32:00.340 especially a traumatic one where you almost, where you were hemorrhaging at the hospital,

00:32:04.020 dealing with all of this too. Oh my gosh. It was just so, so much chaos, you know, and, um,

00:32:10.560 scary. Yeah. And when you don't, again, like nobody knows about DHS until they knock on their door. And

00:32:16.580 so you, you just don't really know. I mean, um, we also didn't, couldn't financially like get a,

00:32:22.320 get a lawyer initially. Yeah. And so we just, you know, we said, okay, well, we're gonna, you know,

00:32:27.420 obviously I'm not doing drugs. So we think we're going to be okay. You know, we'll keep testing and

00:32:31.820 it's going to come up. I'm not using, you know, all of this stuff. So we did have faith that,

00:32:36.040 you know, it would, it would work out. But, um, in hindsight, yeah, we should have had a lawyer

00:32:40.720 immediately. Yeah. So, okay. After it escalated, then what happened from there? Um, so it, it escalated

00:32:47.100 to a child in need of assistance. Um, and then at that point, uh, we received court appointed lawyers,

00:32:53.540 both my husband and I. Um, and, and at that point that our, our children received, um, a guardian ad litem,

00:33:00.200 um, um, and the guardian ad litem is, uh, is a lawyer that represents our children's best interest,

00:33:06.260 um, in the court. Um, and so then, uh, we had our first hearing and it was decided, you know,

00:33:14.920 uh, you, you don't go into adjudication until all parties agree that this is necessary. And we

00:33:21.520 obviously weren't in agreeance with anything up at this point. So we, we contested the China,

00:33:28.320 um, my husband and I went into it thinking we were going to be able to like go on the stand and,

00:33:33.840 and tell our story and present our evidence. Um, but that's not what happened. Uh, we went into the

00:33:40.740 court and there was some discussion. We submitted 25 pieces of evidence before the, the court date so

00:33:47.040 that everyone could see it. This included, um, a 12 month hair test that we did on our own out of

00:33:53.460 pocket. Um, and when it says 12 months, does that mean it's able to detect in the previous 12 months,

00:34:00.260 whether you had taken the drugs that it's testing for? Okay. Yeah. And we did that, um, so that it

00:34:06.480 would cover the entirety of my pregnancy because we were told when we did the three month hair test,

00:34:10.680 oh, well, you could have used in, in month zero, zero through six, you could have still used. Um,

00:34:16.760 and, and what's interesting is. So why wouldn't they have just ordered a 12 month test themselves?

00:34:21.520 Exactly. That's our point. And it's also the one that we did the 12 month is with the same lab,

00:34:26.640 Omega labs, same lab. Um, and so really they, it would have been so simple for them to do the exact

00:34:33.700 same test to actually like do that. You know, my, my lawyers like presents the question, you know,

00:34:39.680 this took eight months. Who's paying for this? The taxpayers, all the lawyers, all the court hearings,

00:34:46.960 like all of the time, you know, we could have saved all of this taxpayer, pay our money if we would

00:34:54.100 have just done a 12 month test or from the beginning, if we would have just retested the

00:34:58.160 sample from the beginning. So all of this is wasted. And you know, my family has suffered

00:35:02.560 eight months of abuse. Right. Right. And we'll get to, we'll definitely get into all that. So

00:35:08.440 you did the 12 month test that came back negative. You submitted that as evidence before you actually

00:35:14.440 went to court after it escalated to China, you, you would think that that would have just been it.

00:35:19.860 That's done. Okay. You took the 12 month test. It came back negative. That's it. That's hospital

00:35:24.460 must've made a mistake, but that's, it wasn't that simple. No, we, we think, we think that, you know,

00:35:31.580 why we speculate it went, went this far is because we stopped, we started holding accountability to DHS

00:35:37.200 after the founded report, because we lost, again, we lost all faith that we would be dealt with

00:35:41.440 properly. We were already extremely like wrongly dealt with, misdealt with. So yeah, we lost all

00:35:48.620 faith at that point. And then my husband, you know he's like, no, I'm not going to allow this.

00:35:53.920 Like somebody needs to tell us what's actually going on here. Somebody needs to actually like

00:35:59.360 have accountability because if nobody's holding accountability to DHS that can remove children

00:36:05.600 from homes, what's going on here, they don't, they don't have any documentation for us.

00:36:12.340 You know, like the easiest thing, like, I don't know any business would, would be concerned about

00:36:21.140 like, if my, if my employees are on the phone calls, I want to see those phone calls, make sure

00:36:26.040 quality, make sure the quality is good. Make sure things are being dealt with properly. There's none of

00:36:30.860 that here. Like a DHS worker could literally say whatever they want and do whatever they want

00:36:37.120 and nobody would know. Yeah. Because there's no requirement for any kind of transparency

00:36:43.760 or paper trail or things like that.

00:36:46.260 Okay. So you went to court, you submitted this evidence. What happened?

00:37:02.520 We went into court. We, we thought, you know, of course they would dismiss it then because

00:37:06.840 we felt like it was overwhelming. The evidence was how many weeks postpartum? How old was he at

00:37:12.480 this point? Oh gosh. I think, I believe it was in June or July. So. So a few months in. Yeah. At

00:37:19.700 this point. Okay. So, and during that time you, it was just a lot of back and forth trying to figure

00:37:24.820 out what was going to happen. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of that. We didn't have any, any social workers in

00:37:32.240 our home between the filing of the China case or between the founded report and the filing of the

00:37:37.940 China case and our actual hearing. We didn't have any involvement in our home during that period.

00:37:44.660 And so that was nice to like have, we were able to try to, you know, lead a somewhat normal life as

00:37:50.560 we were, as we were preparing. But yeah, so we went in, in court. Then it was decided that we're going

00:37:58.240 to have a continuance. We received a court order then to do an, a, a resample, a retest on the

00:38:04.220 original sample, um, the original umbilical cord and a DNA test on it as well to make sure it's

00:38:09.960 actually mine. We received that court order in this hearing. We also, it was determined that we

00:38:14.980 would, um, participate in voluntary services at this point. Um, and that included two monthly visits

00:38:22.560 with DHS, um, and then a random drug test. And we said, okay, we're going to take it. We'll,

00:38:28.840 we'll just do it. I know that I know. I think, you know, I think any parent would do the same

00:38:34.340 thing. I was just hoping that it would go away, but it's so unfair that you even had to do that.

00:38:39.920 Yeah. It's, it's so crazy, Allie. Like there's so many of these things and, um, there was no due

00:38:46.060 process at all in any of this. And even, even when we got into the China case, we felt like,

00:38:52.280 oh, we'll be able to prove our, our innocence. But at that point, it's already agreed for,

00:38:55.900 it's already agreed that DHS is pushing for adjudication, you know, involvement. And so

00:39:01.080 you're, you're not starting from the beginning when you go into a China case,

00:39:04.760 you know, nobody's asking, well, how do we get here? Everyone's saying, well, okay,

00:39:09.580 everything from here on out or everything from here from up until this point is true. You know,

00:39:15.420 they're taking that as, as, you know, this founded report is true. So, um, so yeah,

00:39:22.580 we agreed to, to those two, um, visits, the random drug test and, um, in court, um, this is kind of

00:39:31.160 interesting in court. Uh, DHS was also recommending that I do a substance abuse evaluation and, um, we

00:39:38.740 didn't, we don't want to do this, uh, because it's not just an evaluation. It's, um, a treatment plan

00:39:44.240 by the professionals is what they call them. We go to a third party, the professionals,

00:39:48.780 they do a substance abuse evaluation and create a treatment plan, which we would then be,

00:39:53.800 be recommended to follow. Right. So, but what treatment plan could they possibly give you if

00:40:00.660 you weren't on drugs? Like, wouldn't they just, did you not want to do it because you thought that

00:40:07.040 they would just give you a treatment plan, even if it was obvious that you weren't on drugs?

00:40:12.060 Yeah, that, or, you know, I don't do any drugs, so I don't know. There's all these concerns,

00:40:16.940 like, are they going to think I'm like, I have a mental problem? Like I'm a liar. 0.73

00:40:22.480 Yeah. Yeah. It could be. Yeah. All of these, there could be so many things like, and then, uh,

00:40:28.800 they, they could also, I mean, we just haven't had no trust that, yeah, that it would.

00:40:34.320 So they wanted to do weekly visits, right. And, um, but your lawyer thankfully pushed back on that.

00:40:41.860 Yes. Yeah. That's a good, I'm glad you brought that up. So DHS actually came in wanting us to do

00:40:47.700 weekly visits with them into court. Yes. Wanting to do weekly visits with them. And we were just like

00:40:54.100 shocked. Like you haven't even seen our family for a month and a half at this point. Um, and,

00:41:00.520 and you didn't even create a safety plan for our kids. Why are you asking for weekly visits?

00:41:04.620 Yeah. I mean, and you, you even told us, well, this is an interesting case, but like,

00:41:09.320 I'm, I don't know what, I'm not sure what to do here. Yeah. Why would you need to come to our house

00:41:14.340 every week? Yeah. It does. I just makes me wonder if there's some kind of financial or employment

00:41:19.140 instead of just to prove themselves useful, the busier they are. Um, I don't, I, I should fact check

00:41:25.980 this, but I've heard that there is, um, they receive, um, there's obviously payment the longer that

00:41:32.680 families are in conflict. So the longer they keep families in conflict, conflict with DHS,

00:41:38.340 there, um, is a monetary incentive. So, and when there is a child removed from a home, there's also

00:41:45.560 a payout. So, yeah, I'm not sure if that's true because I don't know, maybe this is the best time

00:41:53.100 to insert this. And like my issue with CPS, I talked to someone, I think it was last year. She wrote

00:41:59.920 a book, Naomi Riley called No Way to Treat a Child. And through her extensive research, she found that

00:42:07.060 actually children are not taken out of the home as often as they should in most cases, that, um,

00:42:15.480 there is a social justice, like equity, um, incentive kind of to not remove children from like

00:42:24.480 very abusive homes, like actual abusive homes based on like the ethnicity or socioeconomic status

00:42:31.460 of the family. Um, and so they will leave kids actually in dangerous situations, unfortunately,

00:42:38.880 when they should be removed. But then in other cases, for whatever reason they have, they will be

00:42:46.460 way too hasty to get involved and to remove a child. So I only say that because I'm not sure where the

00:42:53.020 financial incentives lie, but there's obviously strange motivations, it seems like, behind what

00:43:01.600 CPS, DHS does. Not in every case. I'm sure that there are a lot of really good social workers out

00:43:08.000 there, but there certainly seems to be kind of perverse incentives in a lot of these cases going

00:43:13.760 on, whether it's, whether it goes one way or another, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. That's a

00:43:19.980 point. I don't want to make it sound like I think that every DHS worker is like evil. No, it doesn't

00:43:23.620 sound like that. It doesn't. Cause I, they're not, I mean, you know, but when you have processes that

00:43:29.660 can do this. Yeah. When it's an, you know, it's, I'm an innocent person. Yeah. I mean, that's very

00:43:36.620 scary. Of course. And they also don't have the discernment to be making these decisions. They

00:43:42.340 really don't. I mean, it's all bureaucratic checking of the boxes. Yeah. It doesn't sound like

00:43:46.360 they really care personally. Yeah. And, um, it's really interesting because I, I, you know, every

00:43:53.920 no, no DHS worker I would imagine has been on the other side, right? Because if you've been on the

00:43:58.980 other side, why would you work for DHS? Yeah. You know, but also, um, yeah, I mean, people,

00:44:04.920 people on the inside, they don't see the effect of what they're doing on the outside.

00:44:16.360 So at our, our previous hearing, our first China hearing, um, they said that we would do these two

00:44:27.280 visits. We would have this random drug test and, and a substance abuse evaluation was not necessary

00:44:32.280 at this point, unless I tested positive, um, on a drug test. All of this was agreed by the judge,

00:44:38.000 the ad litem, you know, DHS wanted to do it, but obviously the judge is the one. So, um, this was

00:44:45.020 decided. And then we went into our first visit with DHS and they said, well, we recommend a drug

00:44:49.700 abuse evaluation. And we said, well, we just had this conversation that this is not necessary unless

00:44:57.160 I test positive. My social worker said, oh, I don't remember what was said. So I'm going to go, uh,

00:45:03.360 talk to your lawyers and I'll talk to the guardian ad litem and I'll talk to my supervisor and I'll get

00:45:08.620 back to you. I don't know what she did, but my understanding is that she just went to her supervisor and 0.96

00:45:14.180 said, you know, this and her supervisor came back to us and said, well, this is what we're

00:45:18.080 recommending. They didn't care what was said previously. Um, and that we have to tread very

00:45:24.080 carefully because, you know, if we don't comply, it is seen as a negative choice by the judge. And

00:45:31.080 the judge even told us, if you do not participate, I, I am allowed to see that as a negative choice.

00:45:36.980 The judge said this. And so we, we are very aware of this, right? So we had some discussion and

00:45:42.020 we said, you know what? No, let's get the manuscript from the, the trial. Um, like we're not going

00:45:47.940 to, to do this. Um, we weren't able to get the manuscript, but we, we would like to get that at

00:45:54.560 some point, but we ended up declining the, the service service, the evaluation. We did the drug

00:46:01.080 test and other three month hair tests. It was negative. Um, we did the two visits. We also did a

00:46:05.440 visit with the kids ad litem. We go into our hearing. Well, a few days before our hearing,

00:46:12.660 we received DHS is filing before the hearing. Um, and DHS is, they gave us, uh, DHS gave us eight

00:46:22.920 recommendations. So these include, um, the custody of our children moved under the department.

00:46:31.420 What? And further, uh, under the department, does that mean given to the state? They DHS at this point

00:46:40.640 after all of the negative tests, after you went to court already, right? They recommended

00:46:48.380 that the government remove your kids from your home. Wow. Yeah. At this point I had seven tests,

00:46:57.300 seven negative tests, a negative 12 month hair test, two negative three month hair tests,

00:47:03.360 four negative urine tests. And we had fulfilled all of the requirements besides the substance abuse

00:47:10.040 evaluation. And the recommendation was based just on the drugs. They didn't add anything else like,

00:47:17.220 oh, she's not giving them vaccines or anything else. I, I'm not sure. I don't know what conversation

00:47:23.240 happened behind, but at least publicly, that's what they were telling you that this is just

00:47:28.460 because of the drug suspicion. Yeah. Uh, yes. Yeah. That's what was, yeah, that was, uh, what was

00:47:35.120 said to us, um, that, you know, because of this drug abuse evaluation and whatever. So, uh, we were

00:47:42.320 blindsided by these recommendations. I have to tell you a couple more of them. So the first one is custody

00:47:46.820 of our children would be moved under the department. Custody of the children would be placed into foster

00:47:52.520 care or, you know, they use, they use the term, um, fictive kin, um, or family, you know, relative,

00:48:00.460 but we live with our, with my mom and, you know, I'm, I'm just not confident that they would actually

00:48:05.940 choose. I don't know. I don't know what they're going to choose, but foster care is an option,

00:48:10.120 right? So those are the, the first two. Um, and then it's, you know, Emily, Emily submits to all

00:48:16.960 and any further drug testing. Um, uh, Emily and Michael participate in family centered services.

00:48:25.560 Um, Emily, Michael sign all of all, all documents, all releases necessary, you know, things like that.

00:48:32.920 And, and I think there were a couple other ones, obviously there were eight, but those were the,

00:48:36.980 the main ones. And this is the day before Thanksgiving. This happens. We received this

00:48:40.840 filing and, um, you know, we are, I was physically sick that day. I, I mean, of course, we don't know

00:48:49.140 why this is happening. I, I tested negative again. And, you know, again, you know, DHS keeps throwing

00:48:57.220 out these, like, they'll make you feel really good. And then, oh, here's a sub, here's a, a founded

00:49:01.920 report of child abuse. Oh, here's a China case. Oh, but you know, everything's okay. 0.98

00:49:07.280 What's a filing? Like, how do you define that? Um, a filing would just be the document that they

00:49:12.420 file, um, for court so that everyone can view it beforehand. Okay. To my knowledge, I'm not

00:49:19.400 a legal person, but this is what I learned. You're doing great. Remembering all of the acronyms and

00:49:24.500 explaining them. So I just wanted to get your definition of that. Um, okay. So that was the

00:49:29.720 day before Thanksgiving. Yeah. So we are just like, I mean, you can imagine like all the emotions

00:49:36.940 were going through. Of course I was, this might be too much, but I'm like vomiting. I'm, I'm sick

00:49:43.180 that day. Like we, and you've, we hear all these horror stories too about DHS and things like that.

00:49:51.200 And so, and you know, we've lost all trust at this point too. And so we just really just don't know

00:49:56.660 what's happening. I mean, you're thinking they're going to take your kids. Yeah. Worst nightmare for a

00:50:02.140 parent. I mean, what if it gets accepted? We don't know what the judge is going to say.

00:50:07.080 We don't know if they're going to accept their recommendations. And, um, and what does your

00:50:13.180 lawyer say? I'm sure that you called. Yeah. So my lawyer said, well, this is particularly asinine

00:50:19.600 is what she said. Um, my husband's lawyer said, this seems outrageously stupid and irresponsible. 1.00

00:50:26.220 So you have two lawyers. Yeah. Okay. That was another thing too, is, you know, my husband and 1.00

00:50:31.740 I, our family is one unit and we, my, my lawyer couldn't talk to my husband. His lawyer couldn't

00:50:38.360 talk to me. And so it just felt very, yeah, it was, it was hard because we, you know, my husband is

00:50:46.600 leading our family. He's, you know, the protector of our family and he's the one leading us out of this.

00:50:52.760 And then my lawyer's trying to talk to me and get, you know, I have to talk to my lawyer without the,

00:50:59.440 without my husband, you know, being there. So it just was very difficult for me because I trust my

00:51:05.520 husband to, you know, understand how to try to navigate this. I'm, I'm very emotional. And, um,

00:51:13.660 so I, I, it was hard for me to not be able to like lean on him in those conversations.

00:51:18.600 Yeah. So, um, then tell me what happened after that. So that was the day before Thanksgiving,

00:51:24.340 not very long ago.

00:51:25.680 Yeah. Yeah. So we, we prepared for the worst, honestly. And I, I'll be honest with you. I

00:51:30.740 said, well, am I, am I going to be a criminal now? Like, I mean, I, I can't, uh, I can't allow them

00:51:39.860 to take our kids. I can't allow that for that to happen. So we, we considered, I mean, all the

00:51:49.640 variety of options. What, what would that mean? Um, because once they take the child, once they,

00:51:56.520 they remove the child and I don't know what it is in every case, but I mean, it could be a year

00:52:00.860 before you receive your child back. Wow. I mean, worse, well, not, not worst case, but that could

00:52:08.340 potentially be the outcome. Yeah. So we're weighing all these options, you know, like what,

00:52:13.500 what really, yeah. What, what's possible here. Yeah. And what happened with, um, because the court did

00:52:22.620 order the hospital to retest, right? Yes. Yeah. And the hospital wouldn't do that. No. Retest the

00:52:30.500 umbilical cord, right? Yeah. Retest the umbilical cord. Yeah. So we, we went to the hospital and we

00:52:35.720 said, here's the court order. We need to get this testing done. And they said, we don't, we actually

00:52:39.000 don't do the testing. You have to go to the lab. And we went to the lab and then the lab says, well,

00:52:43.900 you have to go through the hospital. And so we went around the circle. I mean, it's, I could have told

00:52:49.740 you this probably four months ago, this is what was going to happen. Cause I had called the lab,

00:52:53.640 you know, several times trying to get information on this sample. They hold it for a year. Um,

00:53:00.520 but that I found out through my pediatrician. Um, and so they, I'm not their client. I'm not the,

00:53:06.820 the lab's client. The hospital is right. So I'll just be clear here. So the, the hospital took a piece

00:53:15.960 of my umbilical cord, my body, my organ that my body created and did a test on it. How's, how's it

00:53:25.940 at this lab? And I have no access to it. Yeah. Meanwhile, DHS can accuse me of child abuse and

00:53:32.520 found me in a report of child abuse. Yeah. And, and take my kids away. Yeah. And you really had like

00:53:38.860 very little due process throughout this whole thing. And you did everything that you possibly

00:53:44.680 could to prove your innocence. Yeah. You took a 12 month test that showed that you hadn't taken

00:53:50.480 any of these drugs that they accused you of taking for the past year throughout your entire pregnancy.

00:53:54.800 And they still said, no, you're subject to all of our recommendations. Yeah. Wow. We submitted 25

00:54:02.460 pieces of evidence, um, in our China case. We, we showed up in court and none of the DHS had,

00:54:08.580 DHS staff had looked at any of our pieces of evidence. They didn't even know that I did this 12 month

00:54:13.260 hair test. Wow. That's like, they didn't care. Yeah. So, okay. So this was last week that this

00:54:20.820 happened. Yeah. It was last week. So what has happened since? Um, so we, we prepared for the

00:54:28.200 worst that, you know, this is the potential they're recommending removal of, of the custody of our

00:54:34.420 children from our care. Um, we started to pray. We, we tried to get, we told people our story that,

00:54:43.240 you know, hopefully they would pray for us. And we had this outpour of support from our communities.

00:54:48.260 And, um, it was really like moving and touching that, um, that people would be doing this. Somebody

00:54:55.340 commented on my video that, um, they, she said, please know, like people that you don't even know

00:55:02.060 are praying for you. And I just was really moved by that. Um, and we went into court this Monday.

00:55:10.440 Um, and, uh, we, we felt it was very unlikely that it would get dismissed because of the level

00:55:21.600 of recommendations. We only had 30 minutes to, this was, this was aimed for a dismissal. This was the,

00:55:27.500 we, you know, our last court date, we said, okay, we'll follow these recommendations and then

00:55:33.520 this will likely be a dismissal. Um, and so then when they filed that we were like,

00:55:40.440 is a dismissal even possible? Like would, would a judge even take that? Is the judge going to remember

00:55:46.000 the previous conversation that this substance abuse evaluation wasn't necessary?

00:55:50.100 So we had all these questions. We went in, um, and we were very, I mean, uh, we were just really

00:55:58.400 blessed. Uh, they dismissed our case and, um, we felt like that wasn't even possible. We thought

00:56:05.040 they were going to like compromise likely. Yeah. Um, what did the judge say? Uh, the judge said,

00:56:12.220 uh, well, she, first she asked the, the county attorney, um, who represents DHS, would they like

00:56:20.080 to do a contested hearing? If they do a contested hearing, that means they'll present pieces of

00:56:25.400 evidence to support their recommendation. Yeah. Which they don't have. No. Wow. Well,

00:56:30.380 to which they replied, no. Yeah. So they didn't want to do a contested hearing. Because they know that

00:56:34.860 they didn't have evidence. Yeah. And so we, I mean, that was like upsetting to me too, because I'm like,

00:56:40.140 well, yes, I want this dismissal of course, but why make the recommendation? Yeah. You just sent us

00:56:46.120 through this entire, like crazy, chaotic rollercoaster of emotion. Like we're going to,

00:56:51.460 you're going to remove our kids. Yeah. And you have no, you don't want to, you don't want to like

00:56:57.580 prove that. Yeah. They think that you're so dangerous that they need to remove your kids from

00:57:03.640 your home, put them into foster care. Yeah. But not so dangerous that they're willing to even push

00:57:10.080 back at all. Yeah. On the dismissal. It makes no sense. It, it just like, yeah, it's, it's just like

00:57:17.520 so frustrating that, that they can throw that out there. And this is what I mean when I say,

00:57:21.920 nobody in DHS understands the effect of DHS, the exterior effect. Right. Because why would they

00:57:29.660 flat file this? It's like, they weren't even thinking like, oh, well, let's just check this box.

00:57:34.840 Let's recommend removal of the custody of these children from their parents. And they don't think

00:57:40.600 it's going to like send us into a spiral. Yeah. It, I just felt cruel. Yeah. It felt very cruel.

00:57:48.520 And, uh, but thank God we, it was dismissed. The judge said, you know, um, we were hoping that DHS

00:57:57.120 would be reprimanded by the judge. Uh, but the judge, uh, just said, you know, thank you everyone for

00:58:03.360 your hard work. She was very kind and polite. She, uh, said, um, you know, DHS did the right thing,

00:58:09.220 which I disagree with, but she said that. And she said, um, uh, but there's no evidence that the

00:58:15.800 children need to be adjudicated. And so, yeah. Praise God. Yeah. Wow. So are you still on the

00:58:22.460 registry of child abusers? I am. Will you be forever? Uh, we don't know. Like if you want to

00:58:28.040 have future children, is that going to be some kind of obstacle? Well, that's what we're concerned

00:58:32.700 about is because we also have, we also are very holistic, you know, DHS follows recommendations

00:58:38.100 of the hospital, right. For childcare. We don't for everything. So, you know, we don't vaccinate. We,

00:58:45.080 um, you know, declined all of these things, you know, we prefer as natural, non-interventive

00:58:52.260 as possible. Um, and so we have that, you know, now that presents challenges. And so, but then we also

00:59:01.320 have this child, this founded report of child abuse. We want to homeschool. So. And you're in Iowa,

00:59:08.340 which is a pretty conservative state. Yeah. It's not like you're in California or Oregon.

00:59:13.220 Yeah. Wow. It's, it's very scary that, um, that if it seems like we're not allowed to like make

00:59:20.500 our own choices for our children. If we do, your life's going to be very hard.

00:59:26.140 Right. Like you can, it's kind of like the voluntary services. They're voluntary, but if you

00:59:33.260 do or don't do, you know, then we're going to punish you, which is not really voluntary. It's

00:59:39.680 not really a choice. It's very concerning. Yeah. So, well, praise God, it got dismissed. I mean,

00:59:46.540 that is a huge blessing. And I just have to believe that somehow the Lord is using this

00:59:51.420 for his glory and somehow to help other people. Maybe it's even just like your recommendation

00:59:56.640 that someone gets a lawyer immediately. The things that you kind of learned in hindsight,

01:00:01.340 who knows, who knows what it is. Um, we're actually going to have the governor of Iowa

01:00:06.800 on pretty soon. Right. And so maybe she'll, maybe she'll hear this. Maybe she'll hear this story.

01:00:12.120 That's awesome. Yeah. And there will be, uh, there will, there will be some reform. Gosh,

01:00:16.880 there's got to be so much widespread reform, but what is your plan going forward? Like I would still

01:00:23.400 be, I know you probably want to just get out of the whole thing. Cause I would too, but I'm,

01:00:29.020 I'm like, want to know what happened hospital? What happened lab? Is there a baby out there whose

01:00:34.980 parents are doing drugs and you mixed up the tasks and how you mixed up the results, like

01:00:40.280 what in the world happened? And I would obviously want my name cleared from that list, which it should

01:00:46.860 be. Even so you got months of your life and your rights trampled upon. Yeah. The biggest thing I

01:00:54.580 think that it has affected me the most is from the minute that they did a non-consensual drug test

01:01:00.600 on my son. My motherhood was removed. Yeah. Compromised because who's the legal guardian.

01:01:10.340 I'm the legal guardian. I'm the mother of my son. And nobody asked me about this test. They identify

01:01:15.720 the court as the babies to get around the consent. Right. But who's the guardian here? Is it the

01:01:23.940 hospital? It must be. That's what that tells me is that the hospital is a guardian of my child.

01:01:29.600 I've gone to them for a service. I've, I've paid them for, to care for me. If you do something like

01:01:37.620 that without consent that, and I mean, now we have eight months of the repercussion of this action.

01:01:44.820 So I don't know, that needs to be looked at. And so what's unfortunate is, is, um, you know,

01:01:52.920 my motherhood was then removed and it continued to be removed. You know, DHS needed to supervise me.

01:01:59.600 I needed to be supervised with my children. Um, you know, and then, oh, now we have to go before

01:02:05.140 a judge and my, my children have a guardian ad litem that represents their best interest in court.

01:02:10.360 I'm not the person who represents my children's best interests in court. Yeah.

01:02:15.440 And so the fact that they're able to do this to a mother, to a family, it's just like so wrong. Yeah.

01:02:28.700 I don't know. I, it's just so wrong. So, um, yeah, I'm all right. I guess our next steps, um, are we're

01:02:37.740 going to go through the appeal process now, which is interesting because we actually have to go to

01:02:42.440 DHS, the party that, that founded this report to ask them for an appeal, which is interesting to me.

01:02:48.400 I don't know if that's how it normally works, but just this concept of, you know, DHS, you founded

01:02:53.380 me for child abuse. Um, please, can I have an appeal? Yeah. Um, so we're going to do that. Of course.

01:03:01.100 Um, I, even if I do have my name removed, I believe there's a report still in DHS's system.

01:03:08.180 Um, I'll be on the registry for, for five years if, if we don't get it removed. Um, and, uh, yeah,

01:03:15.840 so we will, uh, if we do want compensation, like if we do decide to file a suit of some kind,

01:03:22.940 um, DHS is pretty protected. So, so we're not sure if, you know, that's even possible. Um,

01:03:30.580 but we will have to actually prove my innocence with due process. Yeah. Right. I mean, obviously

01:03:35.740 we can't just go and like sue and like everyone just believes us. Yeah. We have to then present

01:03:41.960 our evidence. Yeah. I mean, the whole thing just went the exact opposite of how it's supposed to go.

01:03:46.400 You're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty and you were guilty until proven innocent.

01:03:52.560 And you weren't even like, even your innocence that you proved wasn't taken as evidence. Wow. Um,

01:04:01.060 thank you so much for taking the time to share your story. I just have to believe that there is

01:04:07.520 going to be some redemption from it. Um, and so thank you for having the courage also and the

01:04:13.780 strength to tell your story. Not everyone does. So thank you so much. Thank you, Allie. And thank

01:04:18.160 you for the opportunity. Um, it's just, I'm so grateful to you for listening. Of course. Well,

01:04:24.020 I'm, I'm, I'm glad to do it. It'll help someone. I believe that. So thank you. Thanks.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - November 29, 2023

Ep 914 ｜ Holistic Parents vs. the State of Iowa ｜ Guest： Emily Donlin

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