Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 920 ｜ Russell Moore, David French & the Fake Threat of Christian Nationalism ｜ Guest： John Cooper

00:00:00.000 john cooper of skillet is here today to talk about his new book wimpy weak and woke and we are also

00:00:09.860 going to talk about the documentary that has uh been circulating twitter about the threat of

00:00:17.980 christian nationalism john is going to give his reaction uh his response on whether christian

00:00:26.320 nationalism is really the threat to democracy that we are hearing it is we're going to talk

00:00:33.100 about that and a lot more you're going to love love love this conversation it's really powerful

00:00:38.900 what he's got to say and this episode is brought to you by our friends at good ranchers go to

00:00:44.260 good ranchers.com use code ally for a discount that's good ranchers.com code ally

00:00:56.320 john cooper thanks so much for taking the time to be here you know i'm excited to be here i'm pumped

00:01:02.720 up yeah i know you're always pumped up that's what i love about that i am usually always pumped up but

00:01:08.240 i'm extra i'm extra excited as my granddad would say i'm extra excited today extra excited well

00:01:14.580 thanks so much for bringing the excitement and the uh your pumped up attitude to really we need it

00:01:20.360 because there's a lot going on and there's a lot to kind of make us a little sad a little scared about

00:01:25.900 the state of the world and that's why we're going to talk about your book we're going to talk about

00:01:30.280 lots of things wimpy weak and woke how truth can save america from utopian destruction whoa

00:01:37.460 that seems like exactly what we need to hear because gosh my goodness there's a lot of chaos

00:01:44.340 weighing us down so tell us just a little bit about this book why'd you write it yeah you know there is a

00:01:50.100 lot of chaos i mean i've never seen chaos like this 2020 hit and my whole world like shattered i was

00:01:57.420 like no no this could never happen in america nobody would ever agree to lock down in your house for

00:02:03.620 basically indefinite periods of time what really shocked me was the response of christianity and

00:02:09.440 and obviously that's something you i know you talk a lot about we agree on i never expected christians

00:02:14.460 to just be like yeah that's fine we won't go to church and forever and then to not make it not

00:02:20.620 make noise i remember when when all this stuff started happening they were opening strip clubs

00:02:24.740 or opening casinos you've got weed stores open liquor stores i was just like what i'm going to

00:02:31.820 church you know and i remember when i got really loud about it was because i in 2020 i had a friend

00:02:37.760 that had gone to church with me she went progressive uh meaning towards progressive christianity

00:02:42.980 sort of half deconverted her faith but still yells at christians about what jesus is really like even

00:02:48.600 though she clearly doesn't know christ but anyway that's beyond the point and so she was on social

00:02:53.760 media she was yelling at people for wanting to open churches and literally five days later on her

00:03:01.220 social media she's on um at a at a blm rally outside there must have been 10 000 people no mask and she

00:03:09.160 was like this is what it truly means to stand up you know for for god and to do what's right and i was

00:03:14.940 like i am not letting these people bully me anymore these people um are not they're not using good faith

00:03:21.900 these are not good faith arguments so the reason i wrote wimpy weak and woke is i truly believe

00:03:26.220 no alarmism i really believe we are on the precipice of the end of western civilization and and i don't mean

00:03:34.280 that like everybody freak out and we have no hope people who know jesus we have all the hope in the

00:03:39.320 world so i'm an optimist but i'm also going to just being clear we're on the precipice of the end of

00:03:47.040 western civilization and things are going to get really really bad if we don't begin to wake up and

00:03:53.560 realize how wonderful it is to have liberty in the church i believe that the church would just act like

00:03:59.400 the church i think this thing would turn around like that i think it would happen so fast yeah but

00:04:04.560 the church is going to have to wake up unfortunately a lot of the big eva elites we call them big eva 0.99

00:04:09.280 elites or or the institutional elites the people that write for new york times the christian leaders

00:04:14.480 who write for new york times or whatever a lot of them are also they're on the same bandwagon

00:04:19.280 they're driving the bus off the cliff towards utopia and they don't know that there's no such thing

00:04:24.440 as utopia they're going to fall off the cliff and uh it's not going to be good

00:04:28.320 yeah you know you're talking about christian leaders who supported shutting down churches

00:04:33.540 i remember andy stanley he gave an of course virtual uh speech for liberty university during

00:04:41.520 covid and he said you know some people are saying that jesus calls the church to meet

00:04:46.280 no he doesn't and literally he said explicitly that the church isn't necessarily called to meet

00:04:54.180 physically if anyone doubts this they can go look it up it's out there the transcript

00:04:58.060 the video is all out there so here we have a very prominent a very influential leader within

00:05:03.880 evangelical christianity telling christians that you are not commanded to meet together which of

00:05:11.480 course we are commanded to meet together uh do not neglect meeting together as is the habit of some

00:05:17.060 is explicitly what we're told so of course there are going to be christians who say well andy stanley

00:05:22.940 knows better than i do these leaders know better than i do shouldn't i just listen to them

00:05:27.280 shouldn't i just hole up in my house isn't that the loving thing to do so it put the church in a

00:05:32.940 really tough and cowardly spot yeah i think that was what was so difficult about 2020 we kind of

00:05:40.160 thought that everybody agreed on all the stuff all of us christians we pretty much agree on a lot of

00:05:45.180 this and all of a sudden our world got shattered and all of a sudden even within families you're going

00:05:50.080 wait a minute we don't we don't agree on this now i'm i'm literally not being like jesus because i

00:05:56.640 want to go to a church meeting i'm not being like jesus because i don't support the blm rallies because

00:06:02.560 i i know it's not actually about caring for for black people i know that i've read it it's not so now i'm

00:06:08.840 not being like jesus there's two different ways to go about this i wouldn't mind mentioning it let's

00:06:12.960 talk to people who who aren't christians for a second one way to talk about it is this these christian

00:06:18.680 leaders hurt us so much we're not even talking about the christianity side everybody agrees now

00:06:26.220 even a lot of my progressive friends agree they wouldn't change anything but they they go okay

00:06:31.960 the lockdowns really hurt kids they would agree with that it did hurt they wouldn't change it because

00:06:36.960 we were trying we're trying to help people you know but what these christian leaders did was a

00:06:41.500 they actually hurt people it does it's not good for human beings to be locked in your house

00:06:48.580 for six months it's not actually good and they should they should know that it hurt kids it's

00:06:54.080 not good for your spiritual health or your mental health to not be around other people so it it

00:06:59.720 clearly didn't work on a natural level then when you look at the christian side what is really sad

00:07:04.940 about it is you just have people that they're they have these agendas and these ideologies this is

00:07:10.380 what critical theory has done to christianity they have an ideological ends in their mind and then

00:07:16.940 they go back and they try to find a proof text from the bible for that ideological ends but because

00:07:23.440 they go that's what the world wants that's what being a good witness is to them being a good witness

00:07:28.120 for jesus means saying what is it that you guys want me to say and i want you to know that i'm a good

00:07:34.080 person that i'm a loving person i'll say anything i need to say so that you think that and that makes me

00:07:39.840 a good witness so it's actually the inverse of what the church is called to do we're supposed

00:07:45.580 to be a prophetic witness to speak truth to the culture i mean jesus said the world hates me because

00:07:52.140 i testify that its works are evil i think what we're witnessing here in evangelicalism is basically

00:07:59.020 this here's the short version of it they want to create a new kind of christianity that makes the

00:08:05.480 world not hate us so much period yeah that's it it's pretty simple actually yeah and kova definitely

00:08:13.620 revealed that with the dividing lines there of not just hey i think that you're wrong scientifically for

00:08:20.780 not getting the vaccine but i think that you are not a christian we were told if you don't get the

00:08:25.720 vaccine and then um that was exacerbated or maybe we were presented with new dividing lines during the

00:08:33.900 summer of the riots after george floyd and so tell us how that then played a role into what you're

00:08:42.020 talking about the push for a new kind of neutered christianity that just goes along with what the

00:08:50.180 world calls justice and what the world calls truth and what the world calls morality yeah you know i think

00:08:56.000 what's happened is this so probably most people listening to the show are going to know a lot of this

00:09:01.600 but but i think i can say it in a simple way so the anti-christian movement is really the same thing

00:09:09.700 as the anti-western civilization movement so it's sort of like when uh october 7th the israel massacre

00:09:17.460 happens you've got college kids supporting actually cheering on hamas it was kind of a little shocking

00:09:23.960 very but but because i've been doing so much research i was like that's not shocking at all that

00:09:29.220 totally makes sense because the the movement to destroy america to destroy western civilization

00:09:35.020 at its root is against christianity and what i think that some some people don't understand

00:09:41.840 is that they're not against us because we believe that jesus is god they don't really care if you

00:09:47.800 believe that jesus is god there's a quote in my book uh from nietzsche i'm not going to have say the

00:09:52.620 quote word for words to paraphrase but nietzsche is basically like this he basically says we've been

00:09:57.520 attacking christianity in all the wrong ways it doesn't matter if you believe a proposition that

00:10:04.180 jesus is god or died on a cross or rose from the dead that doesn't matter we have to attack christianity

00:10:10.860 at its moral foundations it's the morality of christianity that is ruining people's lives

00:10:17.160 according to nietzsche and according to the post-moderns and according to the to the critical

00:10:22.080 theorists and marx it's the morals that you have to do i don't you can believe in jesus you can

00:10:27.300 believe in little fairies you can believe in aliens that came here and built the pyramids we don't 1.00

00:10:32.000 really care what you believe as long as you don't step on my moral situation i got going on here and

00:10:38.680 so because that has become so popular the church is then trying to say oh my gosh how are we going

00:10:44.400 to synthesize this new worldview into christianity and that's why they took the social justice stuff

00:10:50.900 they took it in and they they feel these words are like full of so much semantic overload they meet

00:10:58.160 racism systemic racism the oppressed the marginalized and they they use them in any way they need to use

00:11:05.480 them to show the world we're on your side we love you and what you end up doing is supporting

00:11:10.900 massive amounts of injustice in the name of christ it's actually a really terrible thing then something

00:11:18.160 really bad happens here's a good example my friend that i told you that was uh doing the post that

00:11:24.380 was at the blm rally actually lives in minneapolis and um was supporting the defund the police movement

00:11:31.560 in minneapolis i spoke out about the defund the police movement my friend who's now kind of a

00:11:37.220 deconverted from progressive christianity whatever you want to call her is telling me that i'm not being

00:11:42.400 a good witness for jesus because i'm not standing up for the marginalized i tell her you're doing this

00:11:48.460 defund the police thing this is going to hurt the people you say you care about this is going to hurt

00:11:53.820 poor people it's going to hurt people in marginalized communities it's going to hurt people of color here

00:11:58.400 we are all these years later and as you know it is it's i've been like a 39 percent increase in

00:12:04.960 homicides in that city since they defunded and and changed policing and you have no cash bail and all 0.98

00:12:11.060 these various policies it's hurt the very people they said they wanted to help but and i tell her

00:12:16.940 you stood up for this you're the one that did injustice i'm the one that stood up for justice

00:12:22.160 and was called a racist for doing it this is what the church needs to understand the world may like you

00:12:28.080 but you're standing up for something really evil that does not make you a good christian

00:12:41.060 i think it was thomas soul who said and again i'm i'm paraphrasing too that progressives are always

00:12:50.440 judged by their intentions not by their outcomes and so you said that your friend or that people

00:12:58.160 who advocated for shutting down during covid that even if they say okay the outcomes are different than

00:13:04.260 what we thought yeah kids have gone back like to grade levels we've got all these mental spiritual

00:13:09.720 physical health problems but we had the right intentions and even people who now see that the

00:13:16.760 vaccine has had some adverse outcomes for people will say well i still am glad i pushed for it i'm

00:13:23.260 still glad i pushed for the mandates because my intention was good and it doesn't matter what the outcome

00:13:29.280 is but that's not how we should think as christians as people who love our neighbors and have been

00:13:35.000 placed in this in this nation providentially to make it better and to make it good and safer more

00:13:42.480 beautiful for the people that we uh live near we have to care about the outcomes we have to care about

00:13:48.520 the stats of what you're talking about that even if the intentions behind defunding the police were

00:13:53.380 good which i'm not sure that they were but even if they were the outcomes have have have been

00:14:00.160 devastating for image bearers yes that's what christians have to care about right absolutely 0.88

00:14:05.980 you know one of the things i wrote about in the book say um that the subtitle is how truth can save

00:14:10.920 america from utopian destruction oh this is going to be good ali listen to this i'm right that so many

00:14:17.100 of our christian leaders have shown themselves to be men of utopia disguised as men of the kingdom

00:14:24.440 yeah so what has happened is is the world is full-on secular humanists and and so the easiest way to

00:14:31.920 just say this for anybody doesn't know secular humanism just teaches that we can we don't need 0.98

00:14:37.500 god for a basis for morality for how to build a perfect society or a just society we don't need god

00:14:43.460 we don't need all these extra human ideas like the 10 commandments we can do that on our own

00:14:48.960 that idea has infiltrated the christian church at the at the top levels to the point that the secular

00:14:57.840 humanists are trying to build utopia they're going to build the perfect world of equity as we all hear

00:15:02.500 everybody has the same stuff yeah equity of outcomes and the christian leadership doesn't have either the

00:15:10.020 stones or the maybe biblical understanding anymore i don't know what's going on but they don't have what

00:15:16.240 it takes let's say it's a nicer way the kahunas they don't have the the kahunas to say that is

00:15:22.520 absolutely not going to work it's going to lead to destruction you can't do it because then they go

00:15:27.420 well they then they'll think i'm a bad person and we can't have them thinking i'm a bad person so it's

00:15:32.240 the fear of man coming in so what has happened is the church is joining with the world to try to build

00:15:39.060 these secular utopias it's the same reason that no matter how many times you say to somebody

00:15:43.300 socialism doesn't work communism doesn't work we're talking about 120 million deaths in the last

00:15:50.040 century from marxist enterprises you'll never meet a leftist that will say yeah it's really not good 0.99

00:15:56.520 they'll all say it hasn't really been tried yet they don't they don't apologize they don't repent

00:16:03.080 they don't go all right that was terrible terrible ideas they just go no it just needs to be tweaked

00:16:08.440 right you know it's like it's like building the uh the spacex you know yeah thing that goes up and

00:16:13.960 it explodes they go no no we knew it was going to explode we got to tweak a little something well

00:16:18.200 these people don't mind when these things explode and death and murder and mayhem it should be the

00:16:25.640 church saying that's because the bible shows us a better way one of the things i write in the book

00:16:30.040 is that i think there's a real mistake in the 90s if i've understood when it happened the 90s

00:16:35.780 the evangelical church just decided to stop teaching worldview and so we just said hey

00:16:41.160 here's a here's the whole pie of life and we're going to teach a little sliver one tiny sliver it's

00:16:47.380 that big right there and this is jesus death resurrection uh ascension which of course is the

00:16:54.200 most important thing that's ever happening in history we know this definitely most important thing

00:16:59.440 but there are other things that we have to deal with because we are living in a body

00:17:03.580 i am married i need to know how to treat my wife i need to know how to raise my kids i need to know

00:17:09.260 what kind of schools they should go to or what i should teach there's a lot of stuff we got to do

00:17:14.480 and they said no no no not talking about anybody any of those things we will only talk about this

00:17:20.380 the bible gives us these answers and the world gives us all the other answers all of it and so the

00:17:28.160 new christian principle was how do we join together with the world because we pretty much all want the

00:17:32.840 same thing and they're wrong we really don't want the same thing yeah you're right and going back to

00:17:40.480 what you said about this idea that well even though our ideas have led to these devastating destructive

00:17:45.680 outcomes they just need to be tweaked kind of another excuse that i hear is well it's really

00:17:51.500 because all of you christian nationalist bigots are standing in the way you're the reason that we don't

00:17:57.200 have peace you're the reason that utopia has not been reached which by the way utopia means

00:18:01.660 nowhere and so that's your point is really poignant that they're pie in the sky ideas of like how we

00:18:09.100 can get to if all the opposition just gets out of the way and they're able to perfectly turn the knobs

00:18:14.360 to socially engineer everyone to comply with their grand cosmic vision of equal outcomes like it really

00:18:21.680 is not only destructive but it is completely nonsensical it's against human nature that's why it doesn't work

00:18:28.060 communism is against human nature progressivism is against human nature um and so i kind of lost my

00:18:35.120 train of thought but i think where i am trying to go with that is that we have been we've created this

00:18:44.680 kind of like boogeyman of christians and christian nationalism and we're told that if we just stop

00:18:52.320 trying to influence culture then finally that utopia will be reached yes um and there's a documentary

00:18:58.620 i'm sure you've seen it yeah that's out there with russell moore and david french you're they're like

00:19:06.780 your favorite people right like you're there you're their biggest fans is that these people definitely on

00:19:12.680 my chopping block there's no there's no question about that yeah and uh andrew whitehead who has written

00:19:18.180 a lot of books or a couple books about christian nationalism it's a documentary about how christian

00:19:23.180 nationalism is really really really scary and the cause of all of our problems so let's play the clip

00:19:27.720 from the documentary and then i'll get your reaction to it we can talk about it they're told over and over

00:19:33.360 and over again that you're in danger you need to fight if you don't want to lose your country we are

00:19:38.580 in a civil war between good and evil this is not a movement about christian values this is about christian

00:19:44.080 power what happens to the people who don't believe this stuff we are on the precipice god is on our

00:19:54.200 side we're taking our nation back the thing that keeps me up at night is that we lose democracy

00:19:59.800 does that seem possible yes

00:20:02.000 okay john what do you think what do you think about that it just makes my blood boil honestly

00:20:14.020 i saw i was like yeah we knew this was coming they've been ramping this christian nationalism

00:20:18.240 thing up i mean i hate that i always have to give caveats i hate nuanced caveats but if you don't

00:20:23.740 look are there are there some people out there that that are very confused about things like

00:20:30.480 uh jesus is my god and trump is his prophet trump is at the right hand of the father of course there

00:20:37.200 are some people like that i don't think there's that many i've never met them i've seen them on the

00:20:42.000 internet i don't think they have much power i i don't sure that's not good that's called idolatry

00:20:48.380 it's not a good thing yeah um of course but this christian nationalism thing is just it is so

00:20:53.760 absolutely ridiculous so i think i just want to say it like this if i can because i'm guessing a lot

00:20:59.500 of people watching your show are just like me when i watch your show and in shows like this i'm like 0.84

00:21:05.240 what happens when i watch this is i'm i go man am i a christian nationalist am i am i doing something

00:21:11.780 wrong am i hurting people am i trying to you start asking yourself these questions and the answer is 0.92

00:21:17.800 no it's ridiculous it's a complete sham when they say christian nationalists speaking of semantic 0.73

00:21:24.620 overload it's a word that can mean like a billion different things they use it any way they need to 0.76

00:21:29.900 use it to win but really what they mean is christian conservative that's it but that's what

00:21:36.480 they mean if you think that abortion is wrong and you think that abortion should be illegal you're a

00:21:42.420 christian nationalist there there's no like other category of person i will i think it should be

00:21:47.420 illegal but i'm not a christian nationalist they're going to call you a christian nationalist

00:21:50.640 people also need to understand is i've read all their books the woman that was on there the woman 0.97

00:21:55.740 that came on instead of trying to enter democracy um she's called anthea butler she has a book called

00:22:00.860 white evangelical racism in the book it's really clear it's obvious i'm not making it up i wrote

00:22:06.600 actually i quoted her in my book funny thing is i quoted most of those people on the trailer in my book

00:22:11.420 i am white evangelical racism is the same thing as christian nationalism white evangelical racism is the

00:22:21.340 same thing as the white church the white church they call it because it's an idea it's not just that

00:22:28.920 you have white skin and you happen to be a sociological group of white people that go to church

00:22:33.000 it's an idea that is of domination imperialism colonialism white supremacy is baked into the cake

00:22:41.260 we have distorted christianity in her words and all the people that believe this we call it orthodox

00:22:47.780 christianity but what we call orthodox christianity they say is a bastardized version of christianity

00:22:54.120 that has white supremacy injected into it and so even anthea butler even chastised people need 1.00

00:23:00.080 to understand nearly everybody on that thing that calls themselves a christian nearly all of them

00:23:04.560 are either pro-choice some of them are pro-abortion there's a difference there most of them are also

00:23:12.700 pro-affirming lgbt affirming as well anthea butler's pro pro-choice pro-affirming she thinks

00:23:19.080 it's wrong that churches are not affirming of lgbt she chastises she's black the what she calls the 0.92

00:23:26.280 black church for being let's see for for um exhibiting white evangelical racism you got to keep up with this 0.97

00:23:34.300 so the black church exhibits white evangelical racism because the black church is largely not 0.97

00:23:39.200 lgbt affirming yeah so all these things are tied together bad is because of white is because of 0.96

00:23:45.960 whiteness and that is that critical theory premise that black and brown oppressed white oppressor and

00:23:52.260 if that's the lens that you're looking at the world then you fit everything into that paradigm yes and and

00:23:58.440 what it means to be christian in her view is to be basically precisely aligned with the progressive

00:24:05.680 uh political party so what's really ironic is that these people are hyper political yeah calling

00:24:12.480 us to political i actually wrote this i took a photo of the book i gave you yeah i wouldn't mind reading

00:24:17.340 this from the end of my book yes i say i'm talking about the progressives these people exactly these

00:24:23.180 people we just watched for them the gospel of the kingdom demands communal political activism this is

00:24:30.780 ironic because the christian woke call people like me a christian nationalist even though my message is

00:24:37.200 one of limited government and they belief in individual liberties i am not a christian nationalist

00:24:42.520 but they are certainly christian statist yeah this is the irony is that people like us we're like i don't want

00:24:50.140 to dominate anybody i let's ask this what did trump crack down on free speech or was that biden that

00:24:56.700 crack down on free speech did trump you know start hurting people's um religious freedoms or was it

00:25:02.800 the biden administration that set 25 swat arm swat people to a pro-life activist house 25 full gear

00:25:14.120 tactical weapons to a pro-lifer's house so the things they accuse of us of they are actually doing they are

00:25:20.780 actually more political than we are because your typical christian conservative is sort of like

00:25:26.180 i don't really care about politics i just think killing innocent children is so evil 0.74

00:25:31.400 and now the whole the whole transgender ideology it is just so evil i feel like i got to stand against 0.96

00:25:38.020 that that's where your typical christian conservative lands and what they are trying to do

00:25:43.040 is trying to guilt you into not being that person so you can be viewed as one of the good people

00:25:48.960 they're trying to conflate all conservative christians who like you said are just they're

00:26:06.200 just pro-life and they don't believe in defunding the police and they don't believe in you know that

00:26:11.760 boys can become girls and and vice versa they're trying to conflate that person with everyone who

00:26:18.180 stormed the capitol on january 6th they're saying that is one in the same and again just to like

00:26:24.540 offer caveats which we shouldn't even have to at this point of course i don't support any violence

00:26:29.780 where i probably don't agree with any of the people that we saw in that clip like theologically

00:26:35.520 the conflation of or the belief that america is god's chosen country that americans are god's chosen

00:26:43.420 people and so sure yeah we can denounce that or disagree with that or whatever what i take issue 0.96

00:26:49.900 with is the argument that seems to be the point of this documentary that you are an evil christian 0.98

00:26:56.200 nationalist fascist racist all of those things if you allow your worldview to inform your vote to inform 0.94

00:27:04.120 what you think about political issues apparently christian conservatives are the only people in the

00:27:09.400 country who are not allowed to bring our worldview to the voting booth an atheist can do that an agnostic

00:27:16.100 can do that a muslim can do that that's all fine because you have to by the way everyone votes in

00:27:21.880 accordance with their worldview everyone does that is normal that is right that's our responsibility that

00:27:27.400 actually is what a democracy is a representative democracy we all take our best arguments according to

00:27:34.060 our faith in our worldview to the voting booth but they're saying the only way to be a good christian

00:27:40.400 is to not do that the only way to be a good christian is to actually vote against what you

00:27:46.620 believe so sure you can be personally pro-life but to be a good christian you'll vote for the slaughter of

00:27:52.580 babies you can be personally against transgenderism but you have to vote for boys to be able to go 1.00

00:27:58.460 into girls bathrooms so you cannot allow your worldview to enter the public space at all if you are a christian 0.79

00:28:06.500 or else you are a fascist and i agree with you we've just got to reject that you don't have to give into 0.66

00:28:12.460 that accusation all you know that's not true you should show up on voting day with your full world view

00:28:20.040 influencing the decisions that you make because that's how christians are called to live 1.00

00:28:26.500 well the funny thing is is that they in some cases they sort of agree with that they say yeah

00:28:32.020 that's right but you're not being a true christian so that that here's what's ironic in other words

00:28:37.360 how come they never get called christian nationalists because they're all saying the bible says that this is

00:28:42.980 what we're supposed to do so how come stacy abrams can say i used to be pro-life but after becoming a

00:28:51.120 christian and reading the bible i became pro-choice understanding that god wants me

00:28:56.380 how come she can say that and not be called a christian nationalist right how come president 0.98

00:29:00.100 biden can chastise florida for disallowing minor uh trans surgeries and say this is what do you say

00:29:08.680 it's almost sinful what you're doing because all of these young people are made in the image of god

00:29:13.800 how can he say the image of god he's a president church and state there's a wall between church and

00:29:19.300 state and he's quoting the bible how come pete buddige can constantly quote the bible the only person

00:29:25.440 in politics that quotes the bible as much as pete buddige is uh mike huckabee yeah yeah right he

00:29:31.320 quotes the bible all the time i've never seen anybody say separation of church and state um so

00:29:36.960 all of these people that we see on this clip are acting like in this utopian impulse that says

00:29:43.580 we have to love globalism we have to love pluralism we have to love multiculturalism and and we're all

00:29:51.800 going to live together no one ever says anything about what anybody else does it was david french

00:29:56.540 who was on the documentary of course david french who calls himself a christian conservative is the

00:30:02.820 one who calls drag queen story hour a quote blessing of liberty he calls it now to be fair to david french

00:30:09.860 because i don't lie about people like these folks on here do is he doesn't like drag queen story

00:30:14.920 hour but if you ali say guys i don't think in the public library we should allow men dress up in

00:30:26.160 women's lingerie come in and read stories to our little children here in my little town of wherever 0.93

00:30:33.500 you live i think we should do something about this issue of public morality by the way i have lots of

00:30:39.040 non-christian friends who are against drag queen story hour you don't have to be a christian

00:30:43.800 nationalist to feel that way and our tax dollars paying for it by the way by the way we're paying

00:30:48.680 a lot of money and we're shipping it out we're shipping it overseas as well we're shipping the

00:30:53.140 drag queen stuff all these other countries so we can so basically so we can colonize them i don't

00:30:58.840 know to use one of the left's words that's another thing that's okay if you're a progressive if you're

00:31:02.360 a progressive you can go tell you gondo what to do if you are telling them that they need to allow 0.92

00:31:07.400 gay marriage you just can't 1.00

00:31:09.040 export christianity exactly right and and and and it's even better if you tell them they need

00:31:14.840 gay marriage but you say the bible condones it then you're like a superhero to these people it's

00:31:19.400 insane so the the point is is that david french says ali if you and your friends want to boycott 0.92

00:31:26.120 this drag queen story hour you are being oppressive you are bringing you are dominating people you're 0.99

00:31:31.440 trying to ruin democracy and the truth is is that when most of these people say we're taking our

00:31:36.500 country back for god they don't even mean it in the sense of because we're the new israel we're now

00:31:43.060 god's chosen nation that's not what they're saying they're just merely saying there was a time when god

00:31:49.180 was honored in this country a lot more than he is now there was a time that men whether they knew

00:31:56.120 jesus christ personally where they had a personal relationship with jesus christ that they had a

00:32:01.120 sort of a fear and honor of those things that mattered and they stood up for biblical values

00:32:07.720 nobody can argue against that that that is the way it is so most of the people that say those kind

00:32:12.520 of things that's what that's really all that they mean yeah man it's hard for me to understand

00:32:18.460 well that's me being gracious i think we both really understand what's going on here but how

00:32:24.580 so much attention can be placed on the problem of what i think is a tiny tiny minority of christian

00:32:31.580 conservatives who would say things like oh you know trump is my prophet or this is god's new israel or

00:32:39.280 whatever um versus the pervasive stronghold or the very powerful stronghold rather and the pervasive

00:32:47.440 influence of progressivism you've given a lot of really good examples but when i think about

00:32:53.540 the problems facing our nation the rampant abortion just the bloodlust that we see from the pro-abortion

00:33:00.720 activists now the butchering of children's bodies who say that they're confused about their gender the

00:33:06.360 policing of our speech when it comes to gender being forced to say that a man is a she and and vice versa

00:33:13.440 the problem we are talking about off camera of the rise in murders and violence in these progressive

00:33:19.000 cities just the destruction of these progressive cities because of these policies like that is what

00:33:25.560 is destroying the country that is what is endangering people's lives that is what is primarily harming the

00:33:33.340 imago dei and it's so obvious like it's so painfully obvious the destructive outcomes of these progressive

00:33:39.420 policies and it's so much more rampant it's so much more powerful and influential progressivism is and

00:33:46.700 yet we're told that the real problem the real danger is that some random people on the internet think that

00:33:53.720 trump is god's prophet like it's not even close if you're looking at the level of influence that each

00:34:01.260 ideology has absolutely you know i think it would be a great time so i was i was looking for this bible

00:34:07.100 verse if i can find it um do you mind if i read you a bible verse real fast please i bet you'd love

00:34:13.180 it i would love it all right this is this is it um uh ezekiel nine verse three through four um the glory

00:34:23.460 of the uh sorry my eyes then the glory of the god of israel rose from above the cherub where it had been

00:34:28.760 to the threshold of the temple called the man clothed in linen and carrying writing equipment here's

00:34:33.680 what i want to read passed throughout the city of jerusalem the lord said to him and put a mark on

00:34:39.240 the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the detestable practices committed in it the

00:34:48.560 reason i want to say that is because the thing that saddens me this is the reason i wrote wimpy

00:34:53.540 weak and woke and i'd like to just give the definition of those words real quick the reason

00:34:57.740 it saddens me so much what i see a lot of these christian leaders doing the people are watching

00:35:02.940 they are angry at people like me and you that we are sighing and groaning at the detestable

00:35:11.080 wicked acts that we see i used to feel about abortion i used to be like well of course i'm

00:35:17.420 pro-life but it's not like i spend time caring that it's not like i'm that sad about it again it's a

00:35:22.320 fact of life once you start looking into it and once you start finding out um that the majority

00:35:29.220 of women who have abortions already have at least one living child which means they already know what 0.72

00:35:36.320 the process is like they already understand that this is a baby once you start understanding that

00:35:41.560 people love they actually love this practice there's also about 43 percent of abortions in 2021 1.00

00:35:49.560 were repeat customers these are people who've already had one abortion so the idea that these

00:35:55.320 are people just don't understand what it is or it's just not true there's about 3.3 million babies born

00:36:03.380 in america per year if you have 800 000 killed you're talking about 25 percent of the babies a year

00:36:14.100 slaughtered how is this different than than the in the old testament times right when they it's not

00:36:21.460 different

00:36:22.020 they are upset when we sigh and groan about this evil and they want to say ali calm down stop telling the

00:36:39.960 world that it's all that bad it's not that bad it is that bad and so this is what wimpy weak and woke

00:36:46.200 is all about can i do i have time to define what that means yes please because some people went total

00:36:51.200 apoplectic rage over the name christians it's so mean for one thing i don't use the language you are

00:36:57.460 wimpy that person's wimpy it's an ideology it's the zeitgeist of the 2020s we are wimpy weak and woke

00:37:05.060 the church has become wimpy weak and woke wimpy means this wimpy is when you value tone winsomeness

00:37:12.840 and empathy over truth i'm not going to say the truth because it's going to hurt somebody's feelings

00:37:18.800 we're not going to tell people that defund the police is going to kill a bunch of people it's

00:37:22.880 going to be terrible because then we look like we don't care and at least we care that is being

00:37:28.000 wimpy it leads you to being weak actually it's kind of a chicken or the egg what came first thing

00:37:34.360 the weakness is that we are weak philosophically we are weak theologically and it leads to the

00:37:40.240 biggest weakness of all which is when christians begin apologizing for the bible apologizing for 0.59

00:37:48.200 the character of god there's a lot of christian leaders not ashamed to say the name of jesus but

00:37:53.280 they are ashamed of the character of jesus that is the greatest weakness that we can have we have

00:37:59.980 become woke what does woke mean i write in the book and i'm saying this because i've had so many

00:38:04.080 people john i used to listen to music and now i hate you because i love the poor and if you think

00:38:08.860 i'm woke because of that then then i'm not listening i write in the book in chapter one caring for the

00:38:14.560 poor hating racism standing up for the oppressed and marginalized caring about the material outcomes

00:38:22.520 of the poorest among us is not being woke that's what christians do that's what christians have been

00:38:29.500 doing for ever since the new testament times it's what we've been known for all that tolerance and

00:38:35.580 all that that equality and all that things that you that the world thinks they love they got that from

00:38:40.480 us okay we do care about those things being woke is when you trade biblical justice for secular

00:38:48.420 social justice it is a way is a totalizing worldview wokeness is as you said this is everybody through

00:38:55.420 oppressed and oppressor groups so what it does is it redefines who is the poor and oppressed it

00:39:03.360 redefines that and so now you have to stand up for whoever is coming down the pike whoever the next 0.56

00:39:09.960 group is and that's why you have a bunch of confused feminists to be honest that were like i've been 1.00

00:39:15.900 standing up for women i've been standing you know for this and this and this and now you have biological men

00:39:21.500 playing sports and went on women's teams and now we have people like jake jk rawlings the author of

00:39:28.260 the harry potter series who's just totally hated she's like guys i am a feminist i'm actually even 1.00

00:39:34.940 pro-trans i just think there should be spaces for biological women and she is completely annihilated for 1.00

00:39:42.360 this so now you're going to have the next group come up wimpy weak and woke is not i'm not fighting

00:39:49.420 this so that we can take back power as they say in this documentary so that we can have power and

00:39:55.000 make people we're fighting it because we believe it's going to lead people their souls to hell and

00:40:01.180 their bodies to hell like in this world it is going to become devastating last thing i'll say about that 0.93

00:40:07.880 yeah every time there's a utopia that's tried every every book every philosophy it's just tyranny

00:40:14.940 so it's no wonder that they wanted tyranny during the pandemic tyranny for the jabs tyranny for covid

00:40:23.540 kicking people out of the military i've met some of these people like i wanted to spend my entire

00:40:28.540 life in military i'm kicked out because i wouldn't get the jab they have to impose tyranny and that's

00:40:34.260 why thomas moore's utopia he's the one that coined the term utopia his utopia celebrates euthanasia

00:40:41.300 utopia because it's all about the common good and people with an illness that's going to cost a

00:40:46.600 bunch of money and a bunch of time and it's cancer and it's going to all these all this money is going

00:40:52.080 to have to go to you you know what we're going to do we're going to put you to death for the good of 0.94

00:40:57.140 society and we're going to call it virtue yeah that is basically the same thing as the argument being

00:41:03.900 made for abortion we have to have abortion because without it all these other people are going to get 1.00

00:41:09.200 hurt and yada yada yada so that's why i wrote the book wimpy weak and woke you can only get the

00:41:14.460 physical book at my website because i published it myself john l cooper.com is the only place people

00:41:20.560 can get it yeah you know you made me think of something i love that you're bringing utopia into

00:41:25.180 this because i'm realizing that it's when you shoot for utopia you land in dystopia so you shoot

00:41:31.520 for utopia you land in brave new world you shoot for utopia where we have this perfect world so they

00:41:38.260 think where everyone has equal outcomes and there's no religion basically the manifestation

00:41:42.580 of john lennon's imagine you shoot for that you land in brave new world and you know all all of

00:41:49.280 that orwellian nonsense that we see is because as you said they're shooting for something that doesn't

00:41:55.600 exist and it is actually a competitive eschatology like to christianity in that like okay christianity

00:42:04.040 we believe that one day jesus is coming back and he will make all that is wrong right well they also

00:42:10.220 believe that that can be achieved but outside of christ like outside of salvation outside of

00:42:15.680 repentance really it's not sin that's getting in the way it's not satan that's getting in the way of

00:42:21.320 their you know new kingdom new heaven and new earth it's all of us oh that's good can i jump in on

00:42:27.580 that sure yeah please yeah you just touched on one of the major themes of my book actually and one of the

00:42:33.320 major reasons i wrote it which i didn't mention yet which is brilliant that you mentioned it

00:42:37.160 because in 2020 as this stuff was happening i remember arguing with christians that i love

00:42:43.680 brothers and sisters in christ that we just don't agree on this it's frustrating they're like john

00:42:49.740 we believe in the kingdom of god so you see where that's going it's going into this but like like

00:42:57.160 the kingdom it's like in the book i call it faux post-millennialism it's a it's a it's a version of

00:43:03.520 post-millennialism that's sort of like poisoned and saying well we believe in the kingdom like

00:43:08.940 righteousness peace and joy a land of milk and honey and nobody wants for anything and we're all full of

00:43:15.760 joy we believe in that and that is the same thing that the progressives are doing they're trying

00:43:21.260 to reach justice and equity and why don't you see john that they're the same thing and i remember

00:43:26.580 saying something like utopia and the kingdom of god are at odds with each other they are the complete

00:43:33.520 inverse it's it's like stranger things it's the upside down yeah it is not the same thing and so i

00:43:39.660 spent a lot of time in the book explaining in fact every chapter i have these things i call bible

00:43:45.580 binaries i call them bible binaries because i got sick of people saying john they probably say to you

00:43:50.520 do ali you're just such a binary thinker you have to stop thinking of binaries you got to think of

00:43:54.680 caveats and we need gray and nuance and all that stuff until basically you're just a moral relativist

00:44:01.240 you're a moral relativist so i created something i call bible binaries bible binaries when when god

00:44:07.120 says uh i'll give you a choice today life and death choose which one you're going to serve and the

00:44:13.040 reason that these utopian things don't work i'm just the simplest way to say to people it's so very

00:44:18.480 easy thomas sowell says it in a great way for people who aren't christians if you're like i don't

00:44:22.520 know about the religious stuff thomas sowell says it great he has his constrained and unconstrained

00:44:28.160 vision and basically what he's saying is is if you believe that man has no constraints on him

00:44:33.560 he is not bad he is not born with a tendency to do selfish things or to look out for himself

00:44:39.800 if you think man has no constraints then you will be a progressive and you will try to go towards

00:44:45.400 utopia if you think that man does have constraints then you are going to have trade-offs you're going

00:44:51.400 to say okay we can never reach the perfect world some things are gonna it's always going to be bad

00:44:56.280 which bad thing do we think is is the best of all the bad the christian version is so simple is

00:45:02.100 basically this we are born into sin every single human being is born into sin he's going to do bad

00:45:08.920 stuff he's going to be selfish and because of that it is impossible to reach a quality of outcomes

00:45:16.540 where everybody has the same thing i write in the book at some point how are you going to give

00:45:20.740 everybody how is everybody going to end in the same place am i going to pay if i have two employees and

00:45:25.880 one is a drunkard and he shows up late and he barely ever shows up and he falls asleep on the job

00:45:31.140 how is he going to have the same outcomes as the guy that shows up on time and works hard

00:45:36.240 how is a kid raising a two-parent family how is the kid from a one-parent family going to ever have

00:45:43.120 the same kind of outcomes with we we've all seen the statistics it's not possible that's why utopia

00:45:49.960 and the kingdom of god are not the same thing

00:45:51.720 i'm afraid if i bring this up like we could talk for two more hours but i just i have to say it and

00:46:08.780 then i'll let you respond and then we can try to close out but when you said this idea the

00:46:13.560 unconstrained versus the constrained which gosh i recommend thomas soul 2 quest for cosmic justice

00:46:19.340 speaks to a lot of what we're talking about and then also um well there's several books that i

00:46:25.860 could list but i was thinking of rousseau who believed that man is born free but everywhere

00:46:32.220 is in chains this idea that religion and societal expectations and all of this stuff it's it's holding

00:46:39.880 us back and we can finally be liberated and he truly did believe in a utopia that if we just

00:46:45.300 are finally throw off all of this stuff that the world that social constructs have placed on us

00:46:53.280 then we can finally be totally free and everyone have the same outcomes man so this is like hundreds of

00:47:00.880 years old just repackaged in modern form um and it's just the devil playing his same tricks did god

00:47:10.020 really say boom that's the last sentence of my book i don't know what's happening here ali you're

00:47:16.400 just we're on the same page i mean um you know what you just said is really important so i have

00:47:21.340 650 footnotes in this book all right 80 pages of footnotes the reason being i believe if christians or

00:47:29.880 non-christians i believe if they read the original words of rousseau of carl marx of freud of the sexual

00:47:38.260 revolution by we didn't get into wilhelm reich um i had to read this oh i wish to god i'd never had

00:47:43.520 to read it but you have to read he's the father of the sexual revolution he's he's the father of the

00:47:49.820 1960s free love movement that has led us to where we are today it's the most godless stuff i've ever

00:47:55.580 read in my life it's horrible and um if people read these original words they will go oh my gosh

00:48:03.740 this is evil this is wicked stuff and that's why it is not idolatrous to say the war against america

00:48:12.480 is a war against christianity it's not because american christianity are synonymous it's because

00:48:19.200 what they are at war with is actually the created order they hate the created order rousseau marx they're

00:48:26.580 basically saying if we can just throw down god and all of his constraints upon humanity uh his laws

00:48:35.160 basically his commands his law if we get rid of that then we're we're going to be awesome it's going

00:48:40.040 to be really great and that's why they sexualize kids at i mean i'm trying to be shocking but wilhelm

00:48:46.400 reich he one of his big things was fighting for the the free sexual he calls them genital rights of

00:48:52.860 children and he advocated that there's always that that just seems to be the common thread because

00:48:59.000 he believes the the way to reach utopia is for for man to finally release the sexual constraints

00:49:06.160 because we are sexual beings and it's it's so horrifying and so gross so i tell people go get

00:49:12.360 the book john l cooper.com you'll read the footnotes and you will never again uh be confused when when

00:49:19.200 you say to somebody i don't like that because that's that's from marx and they go you don't

00:49:23.620 even know what carl marx said you don't even know what critical race theory is you're a christian

00:49:27.680 nationalist you will know that you will know the quotes from the horse's mouth from the original

00:49:32.980 people you'll know you're being lied to and then you'll have the confidence to argue back with the

00:49:39.100 word of god every single chapter i give the biblical response this is why it doesn't work and we know

00:49:45.460 that if we argue with the word of god that's it that's the end of it did god say yes he has said

00:49:52.480 he gives us his word and we can stand on his word you can take it to the bank because his word never

00:49:58.440 ever fails what does the bible verse say the flowers fade the grass withers but the word of our god

00:50:04.200 stands forever take it to the bank yes and amen i've got to say one more thing john i gotta say one more

00:50:11.480 thing because it's such an interesting conversation but i okay and then you got to end with another

00:50:17.120 banger like that but you what you were talking about wilhelm reich and it just always goes back

00:50:23.380 to it seems like perversion and children and and all of that stuff i one thing i forgot to mention in

00:50:28.280 that documentary clip that we played uh one of their examples of evil christian nationalism was

00:50:34.520 actually a dad being dragged out yes dad being dragged out of a school board meeting well that

00:50:40.960 was the dad that was in there raising a ruckus because his daughter had been assaulted by a boy

00:50:49.000 who identifies as a girl in the bathroom so what is the point of including that clip in this documentary

00:50:56.220 that's to say that parents parents you don't even have a right to stand up for your own children you

00:51:05.180 just have to allow progressivism to steamroll you and your family even if it means sexual assault

00:51:12.580 that's what we are up against and that is why your book is so important yes i'm so glad you mentioned

00:51:19.500 this so we're about i'm gonna dive into this it's gonna be so good i'm gonna make it so simple and so

00:51:24.100 quick okay we'll end on that end on it if you want because i can go all day i know we could

00:51:29.320 i feel my daughter's gonna laugh at this when she hears that sorry rewind critical theory critical

00:51:37.680 theory of course does not believe in absolute truth the critical these are the neo-marxist

00:51:42.080 critical theory teaches that truth can only be found in a correct moment of practice that means we

00:51:50.400 don't know what truth is there is no such thing what is a correct moment of practice they define

00:51:55.160 it a correct moment of practice is standing up for the oppressed and the marginalized any way you have

00:52:02.880 to stand up for the marginalized is is okay you can lie you can cheat you can hurt people because you

00:52:11.580 got to remember mark hughes repressive tolerance he's the critical theories this is coming from that group

00:52:16.200 you can hurt people you can burn down buildings you can you can smash windows you can threaten people

00:52:23.120 it doesn't matter it's not immoral because there is no absolute morality you can only know if it's true

00:52:29.220 or moral at the end of the process of the correct practice so these people don't mind lying they don't mind

00:52:36.620 saying do you see what they're doing they're causing violence look at that dad they throw him in there

00:52:41.440 even though any good dad would be raising nine kinds of holy heck down there had your daughter

00:52:48.820 been sexually assaulted by some dude saying he was a girl in a bathroom now we know even more since then

00:52:54.900 from daily wires reporting we know even more that they covered it up they lied about it and if i remember

00:53:01.660 correctly i think that boy had done this before in a different school and they just quietly moved him

00:53:07.520 because he's the oppressed that is wicked that is evil that is a that is anti-feminism that is a war 0.70

00:53:16.080 against women why is it okay because now we're speaking up for the next oppressed group that came 0.91

00:53:20.880 down the tide which is the transgender gender fluid community it's not immoral because we won't know 0.98

00:53:26.580 it's moral until we get to the end of fighting for the marginalized that is what the bible calls detestable 0.66

00:53:34.000 the bible says i detest unequal weights and measures so once again the bible proves true 1.00

00:53:42.680 and the and man's ideas prove to be idolatrous and detestable and destructive gosh and if we love

00:53:50.000 the people around us if we love the country which god has purposely placed us we will carry these ideas

00:53:55.780 into the public sphere because they matter they matter you gotta love people enough to be hated

00:54:02.440 you gotta love them enough to say i know you don't get i love you so much i'm gonna do it even

00:54:08.080 though you're gonna hate me for it that's the test is if you really love these people or not

00:54:12.320 yep um okay tell everyone again where they can buy your book go to john l cooper.com now the kindle

00:54:19.820 version is available on amazon i'm having issues at amazon because i self-published it i think it's a

00:54:25.380 great book sometimes people say what's the audience for this i don't really know but i will say this

00:54:29.700 if you have christian friends or even friends that just think you're being alarmist all the time like

00:54:35.180 things are so bad and let's say that they're like these people watching the documentary they're going

00:54:39.240 that are constantly telling you oh nothing new under the sun it's not really that bad um you're just

00:54:44.780 making a big deal about it and you're saying oh the country's going down that's who needs to read this

00:54:49.200 book because if they see the original words of these people they will not play around with the ideas

00:54:55.260 any longer yes and amen thank you so much john i really appreciate it i loved it

00:55:00.700 you

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - December 11, 2023

Ep 920 ｜ Russell Moore, David French & the Fake Threat of Christian Nationalism ｜ Guest： John Cooper

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