Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - January 03, 2024


Ep 927 ｜ Is Tumblr Making Kids Trans？ ｜ Guest： Daisy Strongin (Part One)


Episode Stats

Length

39 minutes

Words per Minute

144.49931

Word Count

5,774

Sentence Count

373

Misogynist Sentences

6

Hate Speech Sentences

12


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.840 Daisy Strongin is a 24-year-old woman, a wife and mom, who attempted to transition into a male at the age of 18.
00:00:11.600 She started on testosterone and then got a double mastectomy, all to live out this idea of finally being a man.
00:00:20.380 Now she is not only a wife and mom, but a Christian.
00:00:24.100 And so she is here to tell us her incredible story, and there are so many lessons for parents in this and also for young people.
00:00:34.200 And this is part one of the story.
00:00:36.560 It was a long and very fruitful conversation, and so there is going to be a part two as well.
00:00:42.020 But today is part one of her testimony.
00:00:45.620 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
00:00:48.280 Go to goodranchers.com.
00:00:49.940 Use code Allie at checkout.
00:00:50.960 That's goodranchers.com.
00:00:52.080 Code Allie.
00:00:54.100 Daisy, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.
00:01:05.880 Thank you for having me.
00:01:07.320 Yeah.
00:01:07.560 So for people who don't know, Daisy was the center of the recent PragerU documentary on detransitioning.
00:01:16.980 And you reached out to me on Instagram.
00:01:19.760 Of course, I saw the documentary and I saw you there.
00:01:22.480 But then you reached out to me on Instagram and you told me a little bit about your story, specifically about your faith, and then a little bit about how kind of relatable may have played a role in all of that, a small role.
00:01:34.820 And so I wanted to have you on to talk to you about your story and all of that.
00:01:41.700 So I'm kind of going to just give you the floor.
00:01:44.520 I want to back up as early as we can in your life.
00:01:47.920 Tell me a little bit about your upbringing.
00:01:49.680 Um, I had a pretty normal childhood.
00:01:53.440 Um, I, my parents divorced when I was around six.
00:01:59.760 Um, and then when I was around nine years old, I started having like self-esteem issues.
00:02:08.660 I remember I started seeing a therapist whenever I was nine, um, mostly talking about the self-esteem issues.
00:02:18.380 Um, I don't know exactly where they originated from because like I said, you know, I had really good parents.
00:02:26.720 They didn't, you know, plant in the idea in my head that I was not good enough or that I was stupid or anything.
00:02:34.320 I just kind of believe that about myself.
00:02:37.960 And I think it came from comparison to other kids, I guess.
00:02:44.800 And, um, do you have siblings?
00:02:47.220 Yes.
00:02:47.840 I have an older brother.
00:02:49.200 Uh, he's my half brother.
00:02:50.860 He's like nine years older than me.
00:02:53.280 Um, so he moved out when I was like about nine, eight, nine.
00:02:59.620 So, um, but yeah.
00:03:03.320 Yeah, I, I was seeing a therapist at the age of nine and then fast forward to when I was about
00:03:13.580 11, I got my first laptop and, um, I had basically unrestricted internet access.
00:03:24.560 And, um, um, my parents, like they didn't know what the consequences of that would be at the
00:03:31.180 time.
00:03:31.540 Cause this was like 2009.
00:03:35.020 Um, so pretty much right away, I spent just a lot of time online and on YouTube.
00:03:44.440 And, um, even before I had my own computer, I spent a lot of time on like the family computer,
00:03:52.840 you know, and, um, just, I had a very like kind of ADHD brain where like, I always really
00:04:02.900 enjoyed going online.
00:04:04.000 Cause it was just like an infinite, infinite massive information and entertainment.
00:04:09.480 I could just go to the next thing and the next thing and the next.
00:04:12.760 And so it got to the point in middle school where I would basically just spend all day
00:04:18.220 online.
00:04:18.580 And my parents were concerned about that.
00:04:22.220 Even at school?
00:04:23.780 Not at school, but whenever I would come home, I would.
00:04:28.840 So you're like addicted to it.
00:04:30.560 Yeah, pretty much.
00:04:31.220 And I didn't have a lot of friends.
00:04:32.580 I, I had friends, but I wasn't like, I wasn't that social.
00:04:37.740 I've always been like a more introverted person.
00:04:40.720 Just want to like stay in my head, in my own little world.
00:04:46.120 And that mixed with just the depression and the mental issues that I was having and also
00:04:57.560 just being in middle school, just, that's a, that's a time of weirdness and awkwardness.
00:05:04.980 Yeah.
00:05:05.500 And new feelings.
00:05:06.640 And it was, it all became very heavy on my mind.
00:05:12.720 Um, just feeling like uncomfortable with yourself or bad about yourself.
00:05:19.920 That's what was weighing on you.
00:05:21.140 Um, definitely, um, especially as I reached like eighth grade, um, I just noticed that
00:05:29.200 the separations between boys and girls started to become a lot more obvious because in, in
00:05:35.140 elementary school, I had a lot of guy friends.
00:05:38.440 Like I mostly was friends with the boys and I did not problematize that.
00:05:44.280 Um, but then in eighth grade, I not only found myself just like wanting to socialize more
00:05:53.420 with boys, but also becoming attracted to boys.
00:05:56.980 And also that's probably when the feelings of wanting to be a boy really started to amp
00:06:03.520 up.
00:06:03.860 And I don't know what caused this to be perfectly honest.
00:06:07.360 Um, I would say I'm kind of an anomaly, uh, in terms of like de-transitioners because I
00:06:16.560 don't have any like sexual trauma.
00:06:18.340 Like I was not, I was not sexually abused.
00:06:21.220 Thank God.
00:06:22.080 Right.
00:06:22.620 Um, yeah, that is a common thing that I hear a lot from female, uh, you know, females who
00:06:28.420 have tried to transition so-called into a man de-transition is that there's almost always
00:06:33.680 a sexual trauma component, but that's not, that's not your story.
00:06:36.920 No.
00:06:37.560 And I will say, um, the feelings of being a boy didn't just come out of nowhere in eighth
00:06:42.980 grade.
00:06:43.660 They go back to when I was like probably four years old.
00:06:47.440 I remember watching movies and just wanting to emulate male characters and not relating
00:06:55.020 to female characters at all.
00:06:56.820 And I remember even like saying to my parents, I'm a boy, or I would say like, I'm half boy,
00:07:03.520 half girl, things like that.
00:07:04.740 And that was like, you know, obviously way before I ever knew about what transgender was.
00:07:10.380 So I don't know where that comes from.
00:07:14.160 Um, exactly been trying to figure that out, but I, yeah.
00:07:20.380 Um, so did you, you said that you were seeing a therapist at the age of age, at the age of
00:07:26.080 nine, because of feelings of inadequacy, not liking yourself, um, maybe even depression
00:07:34.960 and anxiety.
00:07:35.900 Um, and were you seeing that therapist continuously throughout elementary and middle school?
00:07:42.820 I saw him for maybe two years.
00:07:46.300 And then I saw a different therapist in eighth grade.
00:07:53.160 Um, were they helpful?
00:07:54.840 Would you say?
00:07:56.180 Eh, yeah, I guess.
00:07:58.620 I mean, it's always helpful to kind of vocalize your feelings and to have someone maybe like
00:08:08.260 give a different perspective on it from like an outsider perspective and someone who obviously
00:08:15.420 is a psychiatrist who could maybe help you understand where these feelings are coming
00:08:20.940 from, but I still just felt like just very much like, I have no idea.
00:08:27.460 Like there's something wrong with me.
00:08:29.520 I just felt very like alien.
00:08:32.240 And I know like that's normal for middle schoolers to feel that, but I just felt like it was even
00:08:40.060 more so.
00:08:40.680 Cause I was like, why do I want to cross dress all the time?
00:08:43.560 Why do I want to have short hair?
00:08:45.360 Why do I want to look like Justin Bieber and not like, like I was, I, yeah.
00:08:50.380 It was, it was, um, I'll just, I felt like I was very strange in, in a way, again, that
00:08:58.940 I problematized and I started questioning my sexuality.
00:09:03.080 I was like, does this mean that I'm lesbian?
00:09:06.500 Cause I'm not, but I want to look so butch.
00:09:10.080 And you know, that's how I, you know, at the time I was like that if you're a girl and
00:09:17.080 you want to look like a boy, that probably means that you're gay.
00:09:20.380 But I'm not.
00:09:22.080 I was just very confused.
00:09:24.260 Yeah.
00:09:36.520 Are you scared of those feelings?
00:09:39.740 Um, at first, yes.
00:09:42.020 Because again, at this time, this is like 2012.
00:09:44.800 So I didn't know what transgender was.
00:09:46.900 I mean, I knew, but it was like very like taboo.
00:09:50.160 I did not, I don't even think I knew that trans men existed.
00:09:55.540 Um, so yeah.
00:09:58.960 And I kind of went back and forth for a while between like, so in eighth grade, I very much
00:10:06.340 looked like a boy and kind of wanted people to think I was a boy.
00:10:12.800 Um, and then when I entered ninth grade, uh, which was high school, I was like, okay, I
00:10:23.180 need to stop.
00:10:23.740 I need to stop doing this.
00:10:25.960 I want a boyfriend.
00:10:28.660 Like I want to make myself look more feminine.
00:10:32.020 And I did enjoy that in a way.
00:10:39.220 I, um, there were times where I felt pretty and, but those feelings were still there.
00:10:49.600 And I would still like try to cross dress in, in private.
00:10:54.300 Yeah.
00:10:54.820 Yeah.
00:10:55.320 Um, so it was beyond feeling like you're a tomboy because that's one thing where girls
00:11:02.040 are like, yeah, I just don't like dresses and I like to play sports, but there was something
00:11:06.540 almost, you felt like it was a subversive desire that you had to not just be a little
00:11:12.280 bit more masculine, but to dress like to cross dress.
00:11:15.400 Yeah.
00:11:15.780 Right.
00:11:15.980 Like you felt like you needed to kind of keep it secret in a way.
00:11:19.020 Yeah.
00:11:20.040 Yeah.
00:11:20.640 Especially when I saw how, um, just, it made me like when I did cross dress, like, and
00:11:31.880 have short hair in eighth grade and, you know, try to look like a boy, it didn't really, it
00:11:39.600 didn't exactly help my social life.
00:11:41.860 It kind of, um, led to some bullying.
00:11:45.180 So I was like, okay, I should probably just fit in.
00:11:50.180 It's fine.
00:11:50.760 Like I'll grow my hair out and, you know, I'll just change myself.
00:11:57.540 And so, yeah, freshman year, I was kind of more feminine and, um, then I just got the
00:12:08.380 urge to cut my hair again in like sophomore year.
00:12:13.260 Uh, what are your, what were your, were your parents guiding you through this at all?
00:12:17.040 Or were they kind of just like do what you want?
00:12:18.820 Yeah.
00:12:19.480 I think they thought it was kind of probably weird when I was cross, when I wanted to cross
00:12:26.160 dress all the time or most of the time, um, they didn't like say anything like you have
00:12:33.020 to stop this, but they probably thought it was odd.
00:12:37.220 Um, and, um, my mom really encouraged me in my femininity when I, um, seemed to become
00:12:44.900 more interested in that.
00:12:46.620 And, um, and I do remember I, I really had to beg her to let me cut my hair for that second
00:12:54.020 time because, um, she actually was worried that I was going to start like wanting to transition
00:13:01.400 because this is in like 2014.
00:13:03.040 So, and, and this whole time I'm just like chronically online.
00:13:07.520 Um, yeah.
00:13:08.520 Yeah.
00:13:08.880 So, and I was going to ask about that because you did, you kind of teased that a little bit,
00:13:13.700 how you got your laptop when you, when it was 2009 and you were kind of addicted to being
00:13:18.280 online.
00:13:19.500 Um, what do you think, like what effect did that have and, and, and like what sites were
00:13:24.940 you visiting?
00:13:25.520 Yeah.
00:13:26.560 So I spent a lot of time on YouTube and Tumblr.
00:13:31.600 I originally got on Tumblr because I was a huge nerd and I really liked Doctor Who and
00:13:39.020 Sherlock and I really liked, you know, I would spend time in like those fandom communities.
00:13:45.500 I wasn't at all looking for gender related stuff at first.
00:13:50.600 Um, but then that, the gender Tumblr stuff and the Doctor Who Sherlock stuff, there's some
00:13:59.220 intersection because I think that a lot of the girls that were in those fandoms also felt
00:14:08.000 like they didn't fit in and were just kind of outcasts and a lot of them happen to have
00:14:16.040 the same weird gender feelings, if you will.
00:14:19.660 Um, yeah, I don't know anything about that.
00:14:23.200 Yeah.
00:14:23.740 That world.
00:14:24.440 Yeah.
00:14:25.080 Um, but I basically came across something that was talking, it was defining this term called
00:14:33.040 gender queer.
00:14:34.080 And I was like, what is that?
00:14:35.720 Like in, this is 2014?
00:14:37.880 13, I think.
00:14:39.040 2013.
00:14:39.440 So like right when you were in high school, you came across this?
00:14:42.560 I think I was, um, a freshman and it was basically saying gender queer is when you feel like
00:14:51.260 you're neither male nor female or like you're a bit of both.
00:14:55.260 And I really resonated with that.
00:14:57.040 Like, oh yeah, I do feel like I'm both because I do like to look masculine, but I also like
00:15:04.300 to look feminine.
00:15:05.400 That must, I must be gender queer then because I have this like variance of, you know, different
00:15:12.120 ways of wanting to express myself.
00:15:14.340 Um, and at first I was like, this isn't going to like take over my life or anything.
00:15:19.500 I'm just going to resonate with this privately.
00:15:22.240 I'm not going to like go and change my pronouns.
00:15:25.520 I don't want to deal with that.
00:15:27.560 Um, but I'm glad I found this term and I'm really, I feel, um, a lot less bad about myself
00:15:36.840 because there are other people who are like me, who have similar interests, who actually
00:15:41.400 feel the same way.
00:15:42.420 So at first I was like, this is a very positive thing.
00:15:46.320 And, you know, I was naive and, um, had, you know, I, I've always been like a, a very
00:15:52.700 open person.
00:15:54.420 So the idea of someone identifying as both a boy and a girl, it's not like that was weird
00:16:00.380 or nonsensical to me.
00:16:02.020 It just, it really felt like me.
00:16:04.260 So that's kind of when it started.
00:16:06.340 And then I kind of fell into a rabbit hole of all of these other like different made
00:16:12.500 up identities, um, regarding gender and people, you know, it's not like I was groomed by adults
00:16:20.060 to believe I was trans.
00:16:21.360 It was other people.
00:16:23.080 It was other young people, mostly young girls who were, um, sharing their own interior experiences.
00:16:32.960 And again, it did not seem like a negative thing at all, but I've always been kind of
00:16:42.640 an obsessive person and I got a little obsessed with it.
00:16:46.660 So.
00:16:47.320 And you're talking about the stories that you were reading online?
00:16:49.700 Yes.
00:16:51.280 Yeah.
00:16:51.720 Just, um, the idea of identifying as not a girl, I guess.
00:16:59.640 Yeah.
00:17:00.320 On like Tumblr, mostly Reddit, YouTube.
00:17:04.760 Um, yeah.
00:17:05.480 Tumblr and YouTube.
00:17:06.240 Cause then I started watching YouTube videos of people, uh, documenting their transition.
00:17:12.740 So the idea of me being a trans guy was still like, oh, I'm not that cause I like to look
00:17:21.080 pretty and I don't hate my body.
00:17:23.900 Like when I went through puberty, I did not, I was fairly indifferent about the changes that
00:17:29.320 were happening.
00:17:30.520 Um, so I didn't really have physical dysphoria and I was attracted to boys.
00:17:35.500 So there were a lot of red flags that I kind of ignored of like, hey, maybe this actually
00:17:41.600 doesn't make any sense for you to identify as a boy.
00:17:46.100 But if you take that and you know, oh, I've been saying I wanted to be a boy since I was
00:17:50.800 four.
00:17:51.920 That's very much in line with the narrative.
00:17:55.120 And, um, the feelings were very consistent and, um, I just felt more like almost like
00:18:04.640 a sense of euphoria when I looked in the mirror and thought that I looked like a boy.
00:18:10.220 So, you know, there were a lot of things that I started connecting the dots and as I sort
00:18:19.200 of dove into the gender community, I guess you could say, um, it started to become very,
00:18:30.680 I started to convince myself that like, I I'm probably trans because there were a lot
00:18:37.020 of influencers saying things like, if you think you're trans, you probably are.
00:18:41.420 And just that being trans is something that is inerrant and or inherent and spiritual and
00:18:52.460 can't be changed.
00:18:54.420 And that's also, unfortunately, when I, this is probably 2014, 2015, when I started to hear
00:19:02.820 things like, if you're trans and you don't transition, you'll probably off yourself at some
00:19:08.560 point. Um, which is so upsetting because nobody has the authority to tell someone that they're
00:19:17.620 going to kill themselves or like, it's almost like a threat, you know, but it's like, it's
00:19:23.980 a different kind of threat because they're not saying I'm going to do something to you,
00:19:27.320 but if you don't do this, you're going to do this to yourself.
00:19:29.400 Yes. And I was having, uh, yeah.
00:19:32.500 Yeah. And I was not, I was not doing well mentally. Um, I haven't gone that much into my
00:19:39.580 mental health state in high school, but I was very depressed and still very, like had a
00:19:46.500 lot of self-loathing and just, um, so the idea that I might kill myself one day, it's not
00:19:54.380 like it was out of the question. I felt like I was very emotionally weak and vulnerable at
00:20:01.440 that time. And I knew what it felt like to have suicidal thoughts. So hearing that it
00:20:10.440 went in like two years, it went from being just like this silly little label that I felt like
00:20:19.940 fit me and just like kind of a personality trait really to this is life and death.
00:20:31.440 2015 is when I came to the conclusion that I needed to transition fully.
00:20:43.320 And you're how old at this point?
00:20:45.400 17. I had just turned 17.
00:20:47.480 Okay. And did your parents know that you were going through this in your head?
00:20:52.040 Um, I think, yeah, I remember coming out to my dad as genderqueer in like 2013 and him
00:21:00.380 just like not understanding it at all. He's like, I don't know why you're telling me that
00:21:04.680 you're a tomboy. Like it's, it's not a big deal.
00:21:07.580 Yeah.
00:21:08.200 I was, I didn't know what to do with that. Like, yeah. And I, I was like, I really wanted
00:21:13.700 them to get it. I really wanted them to understand me. Um, but.
00:21:18.040 And did you still have a therapist at this point that you were telling these things to?
00:21:24.640 Yes. So I've seen three different therapists in my youth. Um, there was a one at nine,
00:21:30.620 there was one in eighth grade. And then there was one that I started seeing from age like 15 to
00:21:35.840 22 actually. So I saw her for a long time and I did articulate these feelings to her and she didn't,
00:21:44.140 she actually did not affirm me, but she also didn't say like, no, you're not trans or no,
00:21:51.740 your feelings are wrong, which I think honestly is the job of a therapist to do. You know, she would
00:21:59.260 ask me like, where do you think these feelings come from? She wasn't quick to say like, yes,
00:22:05.720 you should do this or no, you shouldn't do this. Um, and so, you know, I,
00:22:12.800 I told my parents in 2015, like, Hey, I think I'm actually a boy inside. And I tried my best to
00:22:24.380 describe it. And again, they just were like, so I don't, you're a masculine woman, like just be a
00:22:30.220 masculine woman. And I was like, no, no, no, I'm not a woman at all. And I tried desperately for them
00:22:34.820 to get that because these were really strong feelings that I had. Um, and I really, I was very
00:22:44.420 nervous that they would react negatively. And I wanted to try to frame it in a way that made them
00:22:51.920 sympathetic to it. Um, and overall their reaction was, uh, negative. Um, they were
00:23:02.540 pretty, especially as I actually started to take steps to medically transition, they were pretty
00:23:09.640 horrified by it. Yeah. They did not know what to do to stop me though. Cause once I turned 18,
00:23:14.500 like they didn't really have the authority to keep me from getting on testosterone. And
00:23:21.600 did you have the money to do that yourself? It wasn't expensive. It was like, I think I spent like
00:23:27.560 $60 getting it. And did you have to get a sign off from a psychiatrist? No, not for the testosterone.
00:23:35.060 Really? No. You were able to just, where did you go to get it? Um, I went to a clinic in Chicago.
00:23:42.760 It wasn't Planned Parenthood. I don't know if I should say the name of the clinic, but I was
00:23:47.420 curious if it was Planned Parenthood. So it was just a clinic and you just walked in and said,
00:23:51.660 I want testosterone. And they gave it to you. Um, yeah, pretty much. So I called and I made,
00:23:56.580 I, I called them and I said, hi, I'm interested in going your informed consent route, which is
00:24:03.020 basically the route where you have to be 18 plus, but you don't need a letter from a therapist. Um,
00:24:09.200 and they said, and they made an appointment with me. And I remember it was August 18th, 2016. Um,
00:24:19.160 and I was like, well, they're probably, it's exciting that I have the appointment, but it's probably
00:24:24.260 like super psychoanalytical. They're probably not going to give me the hormones right away.
00:24:29.160 Um, and then I went in and I think they asked me like, how long have you been identifying as trans?
00:24:40.220 Do you have gender dysphoria? And I was like, yes, I feel disconnected from my femaleness, which is,
00:24:48.540 which was true. You know, I didn't lie to get what I wanted. Um, and yeah, so they not only prescribed
00:24:58.060 me the hormones, but I did my first shot there cause they were like, well, you need to know how
00:25:03.060 to do this. Um, and they were very congratulatory. And I remember walking out and like, there was
00:25:10.660 another, uh, trans person waiting there being like, congratulations. And everyone was just like,
00:25:17.300 very happy for me. Very affirming.
00:25:20.380 I could see how that would give anyone euphoria. Yes. Especially if you're someone who felt kind of
00:25:28.660 like displaced in their own body for so long and felt not affirmed in a lot of ways, um, to finally
00:25:39.120 feel like, wow, people are congratulating me for living authentically. This is going to solve my
00:25:46.480 problems. I could, I could see how that would be attractive. Yeah. And the reason why I went on
00:25:51.520 testosterone so quickly, um, cause I had been identifying as a boy for about a year at that
00:25:59.720 point. And you had tried to change your pronouns in your name. Yeah. I changed my pronouns in my name.
00:26:04.560 As soon as I like realized, uh, that I, you know, was trans or thought I was trans, but, um,
00:26:13.740 I wanted to go on hormones so quickly because I was not passing. I did not, you know, my voice was
00:26:21.260 very feminine and strangers were still calling me miss and people were tripping up all the time and
00:26:31.380 calling me she. That's when I started to problematize my body and my God-given traits
00:26:39.180 and feeling like, okay, everything about me is wrong. Like not just meant, not just psychologically
00:26:48.540 or socially or whatever, but physically like the, my breasts are a birth defect and my voice is wrong.
00:26:55.320 I should have been, I was born in the wrong body. I should have been born in a male body. And I did not
00:27:02.440 go through a male puberty and that's a huge problem. I'm 18 years old and I look like a 12 year old
00:27:09.160 boy, if anything. So I felt like there was a sense of urgency to get on hormones and to
00:27:17.860 fix the horrible problem. That was my body.
00:27:21.300 So you started on the testosterone when you were 18 and like, how exactly does that work? I've had
00:27:42.060 a few detransitioners on the show and they've kind of said different things, but like, did they just
00:27:48.020 send you home with a box of testosterone shots and you self-administered those? Like, did you have
00:27:53.740 an endocrinologist or anyone who was checking up on you to make sure like you weren't injecting them
00:27:58.860 all at the same time or anything? Yeah. I had a couple of follow-up meetings with an endocrinologist,
00:28:04.860 um, but they didn't watch me particularly closely. Um, I do remember one, at one point I had asked to
00:28:16.080 like increase my dosage, um, because I felt like it wasn't working quick enough. And so I was
00:28:26.140 injecting, I don't remember what the exact amount was, but then I came back to get my levels checked and
00:28:32.920 they said that, Oh, this is way too much. And if you, if you inject too much, then it's going to
00:28:41.960 convert back into estrogen actually. So they, they really were also, they were not focused on the
00:28:48.360 scientific side of it as like, they were also obsessed with the aesthetics. Like I remember
00:28:51.960 asking me like, so what do you want to look like? Do you want a beard? Do you want to be super buff?
00:28:56.200 I'm like, it's not possible for me to be super buff. First of all, like I tried, it's not, I, but it,
00:29:05.000 yeah, it was, it was like the way that they viewed bodies. It was like, they were so,
00:29:11.640 they're so customizable, you know? Um, and I just remember like some red flags going up. Like
00:29:21.140 one of the doctors that I saw at one of my follow-up visits went by, um, went by dinosaur
00:29:27.680 pronouns, like sore, sore self. What? Yeah. And I was like, did you have to try to like respect those
00:29:36.040 pronouns? Like, Oh my goodness. It was like one, it was like one of the options. It was like, Oh,
00:29:41.320 I like he, they are sore. And I'm like, come again. She's like, yeah. Like dinosaur. I was like,
00:29:47.260 valid. Okay. Okay. Well, we're told that that has to be valid, just as valid as anything else.
00:29:55.060 Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, I don't know. I think I was probably 19 at that time. And I remember
00:30:00.920 thinking that's a little kooky. Like you're a dog, you're a doctor. Yeah. Um, wow. So yeah,
00:30:09.620 it was definitely a weird experience there. And then two years on the hormones, I is when I had
00:30:19.060 the double mastectomy, uh, at 20. Were you in college? Did you have a job? Yeah, I was in college
00:30:25.780 and I had a job. Um, I, I really wanted to just like blend in. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't transition
00:30:35.640 for attention or anything. I just wanted to, you know, make myself look as male as possible
00:30:41.960 and be stealth, which is basically when nobody knows that I'm trans and everyone just sees me as
00:30:51.380 a guy. Um, and how did you feel after you started, um, going on testosterone mentally and physically?
00:31:00.080 Um, really good in some ways. So, oh, I forgot to mention this. This is pretty significant. So,
00:31:08.500 uh, at the end of high school, I became very suicidal and was starting to have like a, a plan.
00:31:17.880 Um, and I went to the hospital and I was in an inpatient program and I was identifying as trans
00:31:25.940 at this time, but I wasn't, you attempted suicide or just because you told, you knew that you were
00:31:30.900 about to try. Yeah. I knew I was about to try and I, and I told my mom about it and she, uh, was like,
00:31:39.860 okay, that's it. We're taking you to the hospital. Thank God you told your mom. Yeah. I mean, I was,
00:31:44.200 I was having like a mental breakdown, but, um, yeah. So I was identifying as trans. I was not on
00:31:51.520 testosterone yet. So I still looked basically like a female or maybe like a very young boy. Um,
00:31:58.440 and I spent six days in this, um, inpatient mental health facility and none of the doctors there asked
00:32:08.140 really, like they knew I was trans, but they didn't, they didn't relate that to any of my other
00:32:16.940 problems. Um, they kind of just seem to see that as just like, Oh yeah, that's normal. That's valid.
00:32:24.940 You know? Um, and literally two months after I was released is when I went on hormones and they also
00:32:33.160 prescribed me Zoloft, like a high dose. So I went on Zoloft and went on testosterone at the same time
00:32:41.720 and nobody really bat an eye at it or, you know, questioned if maybe that would have adverse effects.
00:32:50.720 I was manic. I was very, I felt like a different person. I felt like I had a very different psychology
00:33:00.880 because I think the testosterone gave me a lot of energy. Um, I was uncontrollably angry
00:33:08.220 in a way that I had never felt before. I felt like whenever I would get angry, I wanted to like,
00:33:16.120 actually like hurt people or just like punch something or just like physically express that
00:33:22.780 anger. And, uh, it just, you know, it put me through a male puberty. Yeah. So it was very, um,
00:33:33.900 it was very overwhelming to deal with. Um, and I think, I don't know exactly how it interacted with
00:33:42.540 the Zoloft, but, um, I remember thinking, Oh, this, these feelings of like feeling manic is cause
00:33:52.440 that's how my therapist actually described it. I've never been diagnosed with, with bipolar,
00:33:57.820 but she was like, you are exhibiting, you're like scaring me. Like you're talking a mile a minute.
00:34:04.240 You're exhibiting behavior of someone who's going through a manic episode. And I thought, Oh, it must
00:34:08.720 be the Zoloft, not, not the testosterone that can't have anything to do with it. Um, and you know,
00:34:17.140 when you're manic, you kind of feel good, but it's also a very dangerous, I mean, I'm not a psychologist,
00:34:24.100 but what I was told is it is actually a very dangerous place to be in and you're actually
00:34:29.420 more likely to harm yourself. Um, because you make, it makes you like make very rash decisions
00:34:37.960 and it makes you act much more impulsively. Um, and yeah, I definitely felt that happening. So it was a
00:34:46.500 really, uh, strange time for me. I kind of felt like I went crazy a little bit and the clinic
00:34:55.700 admit administering or giving you the testosterone, they didn't say, Hey, like, are you on any like,
00:35:04.480 uh, middle health medications or do you have a history of mental health that were they concerned
00:35:10.680 at all with underlying conditions? I don't recall them asking me that. Yeah. Well, obviously,
00:35:17.660 even if they did ask you, it didn't stop them from giving you the testosterone and celebrating
00:35:23.180 your transition.
00:35:24.820 After you were on testosterone for a couple of years, you said that you
00:35:40.160 wouldn't take it a double mastectomy at this point. You're what? 20, 21, 1920. Okay. 1920. Um,
00:35:47.280 yeah. So I was looking for, uh, a surgeon in Chicago who would do it. It wasn't
00:35:54.820 it wasn't particularly hard to find one because at this point, the whole transgender thing in culture
00:36:02.160 was probably like at its peak point of acceptance at this point. Cause, um,
00:36:11.920 Caitlyn Jenner had just come out and it was a huge, you know, part of the social conversation.
00:36:18.620 Yeah. And, um, I think at first generally the culture was just kind of like, okay, yeah,
00:36:28.020 you do you, you know, if gender dysphoria, it's in the DSM five, you know, trans people seem to be
00:36:35.920 happy. Like, so it wasn't, it wasn't hard to find someone. I don't think it would be now,
00:36:42.720 but, um, so I called this surgeon's office and there was a longer wait list. They couldn't get
00:36:52.500 me in quickly, but that's because there were a lot of people seeking the surgery. Um, and so I think
00:36:59.860 I waited maybe six to eight months before I had the consultation where she, she did tell me like,
00:37:10.340 you won't be able to breastfeed if you get this surgery. And I was fully operating under the
00:37:18.040 assumption that I would be trans for the rest of my life. And, you know, I would have told you that
00:37:23.420 I wanted to have a family, but at, at the time having biological children and breastfeeding was like
00:37:29.980 not important to me at all. I was like, I don't, I'm a man. I'm not, why would I get pregnant? You
00:37:36.440 know? Um, so I probably thought that I was actually going to do surrogacy, which, you know,
00:37:43.320 I thought was just like this great thing. Um, also being completely ignorant of how expensive it is
00:37:49.860 to do something like that. Um, or maybe I would adopt and, you know, I don't like, I think it takes
00:37:56.220 a very, very special type of person to adopt a child. And so I, you know, I wasn't really sure
00:38:02.180 about that, but I was like, whatever, I'll be like 35 when I want to do that. So I'll figure it
00:38:08.840 out. Um, so that's, that's why I still decided to go through with it despite knowing that I
00:38:17.600 wouldn't be able to breastfeed. Um, and yeah, I, the top surgery, it was scheduled. Um, I'm not sure
00:38:27.760 how long after that consultation, maybe, maybe four to six months. Um, and, uh, I went in and I got
00:38:38.660 up really early at like 5am and went in and my parents showed up and they were really visibly sad
00:38:50.280 about it. Um, it's makes me really sad now thinking about like what must've been going
00:38:59.000 through their heads. I remember my grandmother called me the night before and she's like the
00:39:04.360 spiritual matriarch of my family. Like she's, she, um, she passed away about a year ago, God rest her
00:39:11.740 soul. But she was just, she called me crying and she asked me like, has your heart turned to stone?
00:39:18.000 And I was like, I just hearing that from her, I was like, man, that is, she's never said anything
00:39:24.340 like this to me before. Like she's never sounded so desperate and I did it anyway.
00:39:36.200 I hope you enjoyed part one of that conversation. Part two will include more about her testimony and,
00:39:44.580 um, how she came to faith in God. And so you won't want to miss that. We will be back
00:39:49.880 with that segment of the conversation very soon. Thanks so much for listening and watching. We will
00:39:56.180 see you again next time.