Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - January 03, 2024


Ep 927 ｜ Is Tumblr Making Kids Trans？ ｜ Guest： Daisy Strongin (Part One)

Topics
gender queer Tumblr testosterone therapy
Hosted by
Allie Beth Stuckey
Guests
Daisy Strongin (Part One)
Mentioned
Daisy Strongin Caitlyn Jenner Justin Bieber Zoloft Allie
Ep 926 ｜ The Secret Reason Doctors Push Cancer Drugs ｜ Guest： Suzy Griswold Ep 928 ｜ From Transition to Conversion ｜ Guest： Daisy Strongin (Part Two)

Episode Stats


Length

39 minutes

Words per minute

144.5

Word count

5,774

Sentence count

415

Harmful content

Misogyny

6

sentences flagged

Toxicity

5

sentences flagged

Hate speech

12

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Daisy Strongin is a 24-year-old woman, a wife and mom, who attempted to transition into a male at the age of 18. She started on testosterone and then got a double mastectomy, all to live out this idea of finally being a man. Now she is not only a wife, but a Christian. And so she is here to tell us her incredible story, and there are so many lessons for parents in this and also for young people.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.840 Daisy Strongin is a 24-year-old woman, a wife and mom, who attempted to transition into a male at the age of 18.
00:00:11.600 She started on testosterone and then got a double mastectomy, all to live out this idea of finally being a man. 0.87
00:00:20.380 Now she is not only a wife and mom, but a Christian.
00:00:24.100 And so she is here to tell us her incredible story, and there are so many lessons for parents in this and also for young people.
00:00:34.200 And this is part one of the story.
00:00:36.560 It was a long and very fruitful conversation, and so there is going to be a part two as well.
00:00:42.020 But today is part one of her testimony.
00:00:45.620 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
00:00:48.280 Go to goodranchers.com.
00:00:49.940 Use code Allie at checkout. 1.00
00:00:50.960 That's goodranchers.com.
00:00:52.080 Code Allie. 1.00
00:00:54.100 Daisy, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.
00:01:05.880 Thank you for having me.
00:01:07.320 Yeah.
00:01:07.560 So for people who don't know, Daisy was the center of the recent PragerU documentary on detransitioning.
00:01:16.980 And you reached out to me on Instagram.
00:01:19.760 Of course, I saw the documentary and I saw you there.
00:01:22.480 But then you reached out to me on Instagram and you told me a little bit about your story, specifically about your faith, and then a little bit about how kind of relatable may have played a role in all of that, a small role.
00:01:34.820 And so I wanted to have you on to talk to you about your story and all of that.
00:01:41.700 So I'm kind of going to just give you the floor.
00:01:44.520 I want to back up as early as we can in your life.
00:01:47.920 Tell me a little bit about your upbringing.
00:01:49.680 Um, I had a pretty normal childhood.
00:01:53.440 Um, I, my parents divorced when I was around six.
00:01:59.760 Um, and then when I was around nine years old, I started having like self-esteem issues.
00:02:08.660 I remember I started seeing a therapist whenever I was nine, um, mostly talking about the self-esteem issues.
00:02:18.380 Um, I don't know exactly where they originated from because like I said, you know, I had really good parents.
00:02:26.720 They didn't, you know, plant in the idea in my head that I was not good enough or that I was stupid or anything.
00:02:34.320 I just kind of believe that about myself. 0.91
00:02:37.960 And I think it came from comparison to other kids, I guess.
00:02:44.800 And, um, do you have siblings?
00:02:47.220 Yes.
00:02:47.840 I have an older brother.
00:02:49.200 Uh, he's my half brother.
00:02:50.860 He's like nine years older than me.
00:02:53.280 Um, so he moved out when I was like about nine, eight, nine.
00:02:59.620 So, um, but yeah.
00:03:03.320 Yeah, I, I was seeing a therapist at the age of nine and then fast forward to when I was about
00:03:13.580 11, I got my first laptop and, um, I had basically unrestricted internet access.
00:03:24.560 And, um, um, my parents, like they didn't know what the consequences of that would be at the
00:03:31.180 time.
00:03:31.540 Cause this was like 2009.
00:03:35.020 Um, so pretty much right away, I spent just a lot of time online and on YouTube.
00:03:44.440 And, um, even before I had my own computer, I spent a lot of time on like the family computer,
00:03:52.840 you know, and, um, just, I had a very like kind of ADHD brain where like, I always really
00:04:02.900 enjoyed going online.
00:04:04.000 Cause it was just like an infinite, infinite massive information and entertainment.
00:04:09.480 I could just go to the next thing and the next thing and the next.
00:04:12.760 And so it got to the point in middle school where I would basically just spend all day
00:04:18.220 online.
00:04:18.580 And my parents were concerned about that.
00:04:22.220 Even at school?
00:04:23.780 Not at school, but whenever I would come home, I would.
00:04:28.840 So you're like addicted to it.
00:04:30.560 Yeah, pretty much.
00:04:31.220 And I didn't have a lot of friends.
00:04:32.580 I, I had friends, but I wasn't like, I wasn't that social.
00:04:37.740 I've always been like a more introverted person.
00:04:40.720 Just want to like stay in my head, in my own little world.
00:04:46.120 And that mixed with just the depression and the mental issues that I was having and also
00:04:57.560 just being in middle school, just, that's a, that's a time of weirdness and awkwardness.
00:05:04.980 Yeah.
00:05:05.500 And new feelings.
00:05:06.640 And it was, it all became very heavy on my mind.
00:05:12.720 Um, just feeling like uncomfortable with yourself or bad about yourself.
00:05:19.920 That's what was weighing on you.
00:05:21.140 Um, definitely, um, especially as I reached like eighth grade, um, I just noticed that
00:05:29.200 the separations between boys and girls started to become a lot more obvious because in, in
00:05:35.140 elementary school, I had a lot of guy friends.
00:05:38.440 Like I mostly was friends with the boys and I did not problematize that.
00:05:44.280 Um, but then in eighth grade, I not only found myself just like wanting to socialize more
00:05:53.420 with boys, but also becoming attracted to boys.
00:05:56.980 And also that's probably when the feelings of wanting to be a boy really started to amp
00:06:03.520 up.
00:06:03.860 And I don't know what caused this to be perfectly honest.
00:06:07.360 Um, I would say I'm kind of an anomaly, uh, in terms of like de-transitioners because I 1.00
00:06:16.560 don't have any like sexual trauma.
00:06:18.340 Like I was not, I was not sexually abused.
00:06:21.220 Thank God.
00:06:22.080 Right.
00:06:22.620 Um, yeah, that is a common thing that I hear a lot from female, uh, you know, females who 1.00
00:06:28.420 have tried to transition so-called into a man de-transition is that there's almost always
00:06:33.680 a sexual trauma component, but that's not, that's not your story.
00:06:36.920 No.
00:06:37.560 And I will say, um, the feelings of being a boy didn't just come out of nowhere in eighth
00:06:42.980 grade.
00:06:43.660 They go back to when I was like probably four years old.
00:06:47.440 I remember watching movies and just wanting to emulate male characters and not relating
00:06:55.020 to female characters at all.
00:06:56.820 And I remember even like saying to my parents, I'm a boy, or I would say like, I'm half boy,
00:07:03.520 half girl, things like that.
00:07:04.740 And that was like, you know, obviously way before I ever knew about what transgender was.
00:07:10.380 So I don't know where that comes from.
00:07:14.160 Um, exactly been trying to figure that out, but I, yeah.
00:07:20.380 Um, so did you, you said that you were seeing a therapist at the age of age, at the age of
00:07:26.080 nine, because of feelings of inadequacy, not liking yourself, um, maybe even depression
00:07:34.960 and anxiety.
00:07:35.900 Um, and were you seeing that therapist continuously throughout elementary and middle school?
00:07:42.820 I saw him for maybe two years.
00:07:46.300 And then I saw a different therapist in eighth grade.
00:07:53.160 Um, were they helpful?
00:07:54.840 Would you say?
00:07:56.180 Eh, yeah, I guess.
00:07:58.620 I mean, it's always helpful to kind of vocalize your feelings and to have someone maybe like
00:08:08.260 give a different perspective on it from like an outsider perspective and someone who obviously
00:08:15.420 is a psychiatrist who could maybe help you understand where these feelings are coming
00:08:20.940 from, but I still just felt like just very much like, I have no idea.
00:08:27.460 Like there's something wrong with me.
00:08:29.520 I just felt very like alien.
00:08:32.240 And I know like that's normal for middle schoolers to feel that, but I just felt like it was even
00:08:40.060 more so.
00:08:40.680 Cause I was like, why do I want to cross dress all the time?
00:08:43.560 Why do I want to have short hair?
00:08:45.360 Why do I want to look like Justin Bieber and not like, like I was, I, yeah.
00:08:50.380 It was, it was, um, I'll just, I felt like I was very strange in, in a way, again, that
00:08:58.940 I problematized and I started questioning my sexuality.
00:09:03.080 I was like, does this mean that I'm lesbian? 0.98
00:09:06.500 Cause I'm not, but I want to look so butch. 0.74
00:09:10.080 And you know, that's how I, you know, at the time I was like that if you're a girl and 0.97
00:09:17.080 you want to look like a boy, that probably means that you're gay. 0.99
00:09:20.380 But I'm not.
00:09:22.080 I was just very confused.
00:09:24.260 Yeah.
00:09:36.520 Are you scared of those feelings?
00:09:39.740 Um, at first, yes.
00:09:42.020 Because again, at this time, this is like 2012.
00:09:44.800 So I didn't know what transgender was.
00:09:46.900 I mean, I knew, but it was like very like taboo.
00:09:50.160 I did not, I don't even think I knew that trans men existed.
00:09:55.540 Um, so yeah.
00:09:58.960 And I kind of went back and forth for a while between like, so in eighth grade, I very much
00:10:06.340 looked like a boy and kind of wanted people to think I was a boy.
00:10:12.800 Um, and then when I entered ninth grade, uh, which was high school, I was like, okay, I
00:10:23.180 need to stop.
00:10:23.740 I need to stop doing this.
00:10:25.960 I want a boyfriend.
00:10:28.660 Like I want to make myself look more feminine.
00:10:32.020 And I did enjoy that in a way.
00:10:39.220 I, um, there were times where I felt pretty and, but those feelings were still there.
00:10:49.600 And I would still like try to cross dress in, in private.
00:10:54.300 Yeah.
00:10:54.820 Yeah.
00:10:55.320 Um, so it was beyond feeling like you're a tomboy because that's one thing where girls 1.00
00:11:02.040 are like, yeah, I just don't like dresses and I like to play sports, but there was something
00:11:06.540 almost, you felt like it was a subversive desire that you had to not just be a little
00:11:12.280 bit more masculine, but to dress like to cross dress.
00:11:15.400 Yeah.
00:11:15.780 Right.
00:11:15.980 Like you felt like you needed to kind of keep it secret in a way.
00:11:19.020 Yeah.
00:11:20.040 Yeah.
00:11:20.640 Especially when I saw how, um, just, it made me like when I did cross dress, like, and
00:11:31.880 have short hair in eighth grade and, you know, try to look like a boy, it didn't really, it
00:11:39.600 didn't exactly help my social life.
00:11:41.860 It kind of, um, led to some bullying.
00:11:45.180 So I was like, okay, I should probably just fit in.
00:11:50.180 It's fine.
00:11:50.760 Like I'll grow my hair out and, you know, I'll just change myself.
00:11:57.540 And so, yeah, freshman year, I was kind of more feminine and, um, then I just got the
00:12:08.380 urge to cut my hair again in like sophomore year.
00:12:13.260 Uh, what are your, what were your, were your parents guiding you through this at all?
00:12:17.040 Or were they kind of just like do what you want?
00:12:18.820 Yeah.
00:12:19.480 I think they thought it was kind of probably weird when I was cross, when I wanted to cross
00:12:26.160 dress all the time or most of the time, um, they didn't like say anything like you have
00:12:33.020 to stop this, but they probably thought it was odd.
00:12:37.220 Um, and, um, my mom really encouraged me in my femininity when I, um, seemed to become
00:12:44.900 more interested in that.
00:12:46.620 And, um, and I do remember I, I really had to beg her to let me cut my hair for that second
00:12:54.020 time because, um, she actually was worried that I was going to start like wanting to transition
00:13:01.400 because this is in like 2014.
00:13:03.040 So, and, and this whole time I'm just like chronically online.
00:13:07.520 Um, yeah.
00:13:08.520 Yeah.
00:13:08.880 So, and I was going to ask about that because you did, you kind of teased that a little bit,
00:13:13.700 how you got your laptop when you, when it was 2009 and you were kind of addicted to being
00:13:18.280 online.
00:13:19.500 Um, what do you think, like what effect did that have and, and, and like what sites were
00:13:24.940 you visiting?
00:13:25.520 Yeah.
00:13:26.560 So I spent a lot of time on YouTube and Tumblr.
00:13:31.600 I originally got on Tumblr because I was a huge nerd and I really liked Doctor Who and
00:13:39.020 Sherlock and I really liked, you know, I would spend time in like those fandom communities.
00:13:45.500 I wasn't at all looking for gender related stuff at first.
00:13:50.600 Um, but then that, the gender Tumblr stuff and the Doctor Who Sherlock stuff, there's some
00:13:59.220 intersection because I think that a lot of the girls that were in those fandoms also felt
00:14:08.000 like they didn't fit in and were just kind of outcasts and a lot of them happen to have
00:14:16.040 the same weird gender feelings, if you will.
00:14:19.660 Um, yeah, I don't know anything about that.
00:14:23.200 Yeah.
00:14:23.740 That world.
00:14:24.440 Yeah.
00:14:25.080 Um, but I basically came across something that was talking, it was defining this term called
00:14:33.040 gender queer.
00:14:34.080 And I was like, what is that?
00:14:35.720 Like in, this is 2014?
00:14:37.880 13, I think.
00:14:39.040 2013.
00:14:39.440 So like right when you were in high school, you came across this?
00:14:42.560 I think I was, um, a freshman and it was basically saying gender queer is when you feel like
00:14:51.260 you're neither male nor female or like you're a bit of both.
00:14:55.260 And I really resonated with that.
00:14:57.040 Like, oh yeah, I do feel like I'm both because I do like to look masculine, but I also like
00:15:04.300 to look feminine.
00:15:05.400 That must, I must be gender queer then because I have this like variance of, you know, different
00:15:12.120 ways of wanting to express myself.
00:15:14.340 Um, and at first I was like, this isn't going to like take over my life or anything.
00:15:19.500 I'm just going to resonate with this privately.
00:15:22.240 I'm not going to like go and change my pronouns.
00:15:25.520 I don't want to deal with that.
00:15:27.560 Um, but I'm glad I found this term and I'm really, I feel, um, a lot less bad about myself
00:15:36.840 because there are other people who are like me, who have similar interests, who actually
00:15:41.400 feel the same way.
00:15:42.420 So at first I was like, this is a very positive thing.
00:15:46.320 And, you know, I was naive and, um, had, you know, I, I've always been like a, a very
00:15:52.700 open person.
00:15:54.420 So the idea of someone identifying as both a boy and a girl, it's not like that was weird
00:16:00.380 or nonsensical to me.
00:16:02.020 It just, it really felt like me.
00:16:04.260 So that's kind of when it started.
00:16:06.340 And then I kind of fell into a rabbit hole of all of these other like different made 1.00
00:16:12.500 up identities, um, regarding gender and people, you know, it's not like I was groomed by adults
00:16:20.060 to believe I was trans.
00:16:21.360 It was other people.
00:16:23.080 It was other young people, mostly young girls who were, um, sharing their own interior experiences.
00:16:32.960 And again, it did not seem like a negative thing at all, but I've always been kind of
00:16:42.640 an obsessive person and I got a little obsessed with it.
00:16:46.660 So.
00:16:47.320 And you're talking about the stories that you were reading online?
00:16:49.700 Yes.
00:16:51.280 Yeah.
00:16:51.720 Just, um, the idea of identifying as not a girl, I guess.
00:16:59.640 Yeah.
00:17:00.320 On like Tumblr, mostly Reddit, YouTube.
00:17:04.760 Um, yeah.
00:17:05.480 Tumblr and YouTube.
00:17:06.240 Cause then I started watching YouTube videos of people, uh, documenting their transition.
00:17:12.740 So the idea of me being a trans guy was still like, oh, I'm not that cause I like to look 0.84
00:17:21.080 pretty and I don't hate my body.
00:17:23.900 Like when I went through puberty, I did not, I was fairly indifferent about the changes that
00:17:29.320 were happening.
00:17:30.520 Um, so I didn't really have physical dysphoria and I was attracted to boys.
00:17:35.500 So there were a lot of red flags that I kind of ignored of like, hey, maybe this actually
00:17:41.600 doesn't make any sense for you to identify as a boy.
00:17:46.100 But if you take that and you know, oh, I've been saying I wanted to be a boy since I was
00:17:50.800 four.
00:17:51.920 That's very much in line with the narrative.
00:17:55.120 And, um, the feelings were very consistent and, um, I just felt more like almost like
00:18:04.640 a sense of euphoria when I looked in the mirror and thought that I looked like a boy.
00:18:10.220 So, you know, there were a lot of things that I started connecting the dots and as I sort
00:18:19.200 of dove into the gender community, I guess you could say, um, it started to become very,
00:18:30.680 I started to convince myself that like, I I'm probably trans because there were a lot
00:18:37.020 of influencers saying things like, if you think you're trans, you probably are. 0.76
00:18:41.420 And just that being trans is something that is inerrant and or inherent and spiritual and 1.00
00:18:52.460 can't be changed.
00:18:54.420 And that's also, unfortunately, when I, this is probably 2014, 2015, when I started to hear
00:19:02.820 things like, if you're trans and you don't transition, you'll probably off yourself at some
00:19:08.560 point. Um, which is so upsetting because nobody has the authority to tell someone that they're
00:19:17.620 going to kill themselves or like, it's almost like a threat, you know, but it's like, it's
00:19:23.980 a different kind of threat because they're not saying I'm going to do something to you, 0.80
00:19:27.320 but if you don't do this, you're going to do this to yourself.
00:19:29.400 Yes. And I was having, uh, yeah.
00:19:32.500 Yeah. And I was not, I was not doing well mentally. Um, I haven't gone that much into my
00:19:39.580 mental health state in high school, but I was very depressed and still very, like had a
00:19:46.500 lot of self-loathing and just, um, so the idea that I might kill myself one day, it's not
00:19:54.380 like it was out of the question. I felt like I was very emotionally weak and vulnerable at
00:20:01.440 that time. And I knew what it felt like to have suicidal thoughts. So hearing that it
00:20:10.440 went in like two years, it went from being just like this silly little label that I felt like
00:20:19.940 fit me and just like kind of a personality trait really to this is life and death.
00:20:31.440 2015 is when I came to the conclusion that I needed to transition fully.
00:20:43.320 And you're how old at this point?
00:20:45.400 17. I had just turned 17.
00:20:47.480 Okay. And did your parents know that you were going through this in your head?
00:20:52.040 Um, I think, yeah, I remember coming out to my dad as genderqueer in like 2013 and him
00:21:00.380 just like not understanding it at all. He's like, I don't know why you're telling me that
00:21:04.680 you're a tomboy. Like it's, it's not a big deal.
00:21:07.580 Yeah.
00:21:08.200 I was, I didn't know what to do with that. Like, yeah. And I, I was like, I really wanted
00:21:13.700 them to get it. I really wanted them to understand me. Um, but.
00:21:18.040 And did you still have a therapist at this point that you were telling these things to?
00:21:24.640 Yes. So I've seen three different therapists in my youth. Um, there was a one at nine,
00:21:30.620 there was one in eighth grade. And then there was one that I started seeing from age like 15 to
00:21:35.840 22 actually. So I saw her for a long time and I did articulate these feelings to her and she didn't,
00:21:44.140 she actually did not affirm me, but she also didn't say like, no, you're not trans or no,
00:21:51.740 your feelings are wrong, which I think honestly is the job of a therapist to do. You know, she would
00:21:59.260 ask me like, where do you think these feelings come from? She wasn't quick to say like, yes,
00:22:05.720 you should do this or no, you shouldn't do this. Um, and so, you know, I,
00:22:12.800 I told my parents in 2015, like, Hey, I think I'm actually a boy inside. And I tried my best to
00:22:24.380 describe it. And again, they just were like, so I don't, you're a masculine woman, like just be a 0.55
00:22:30.220 masculine woman. And I was like, no, no, no, I'm not a woman at all. And I tried desperately for them
00:22:34.820 to get that because these were really strong feelings that I had. Um, and I really, I was very
00:22:44.420 nervous that they would react negatively. And I wanted to try to frame it in a way that made them
00:22:51.920 sympathetic to it. Um, and overall their reaction was, uh, negative. Um, they were
00:23:02.540 pretty, especially as I actually started to take steps to medically transition, they were pretty
00:23:09.640 horrified by it. Yeah. They did not know what to do to stop me though. Cause once I turned 18,
00:23:14.500 like they didn't really have the authority to keep me from getting on testosterone. And
00:23:21.600 did you have the money to do that yourself? It wasn't expensive. It was like, I think I spent like
00:23:27.560 $60 getting it. And did you have to get a sign off from a psychiatrist? No, not for the testosterone.
00:23:35.060 Really? No. You were able to just, where did you go to get it? Um, I went to a clinic in Chicago.
00:23:42.760 It wasn't Planned Parenthood. I don't know if I should say the name of the clinic, but I was
00:23:47.420 curious if it was Planned Parenthood. So it was just a clinic and you just walked in and said,
00:23:51.660 I want testosterone. And they gave it to you. Um, yeah, pretty much. So I called and I made,
00:23:56.580 I, I called them and I said, hi, I'm interested in going your informed consent route, which is
00:24:03.020 basically the route where you have to be 18 plus, but you don't need a letter from a therapist. Um,
00:24:09.200 and they said, and they made an appointment with me. And I remember it was August 18th, 2016. Um,
00:24:19.160 and I was like, well, they're probably, it's exciting that I have the appointment, but it's probably
00:24:24.260 like super psychoanalytical. They're probably not going to give me the hormones right away.
00:24:29.160 Um, and then I went in and I think they asked me like, how long have you been identifying as trans?
00:24:40.220 Do you have gender dysphoria? And I was like, yes, I feel disconnected from my femaleness, which is,
00:24:48.540 which was true. You know, I didn't lie to get what I wanted. Um, and yeah, so they not only prescribed
00:24:58.060 me the hormones, but I did my first shot there cause they were like, well, you need to know how
00:25:03.060 to do this. Um, and they were very congratulatory. And I remember walking out and like, there was
00:25:10.660 another, uh, trans person waiting there being like, congratulations. And everyone was just like,
00:25:17.300 very happy for me. Very affirming.
00:25:20.380 I could see how that would give anyone euphoria. Yes. Especially if you're someone who felt kind of
00:25:28.660 like displaced in their own body for so long and felt not affirmed in a lot of ways, um, to finally
00:25:39.120 feel like, wow, people are congratulating me for living authentically. This is going to solve my
00:25:46.480 problems. I could, I could see how that would be attractive. Yeah. And the reason why I went on
00:25:51.520 testosterone so quickly, um, cause I had been identifying as a boy for about a year at that
00:25:59.720 point. And you had tried to change your pronouns in your name. Yeah. I changed my pronouns in my name.
00:26:04.560 As soon as I like realized, uh, that I, you know, was trans or thought I was trans, but, um,
00:26:13.740 I wanted to go on hormones so quickly because I was not passing. I did not, you know, my voice was
00:26:21.260 very feminine and strangers were still calling me miss and people were tripping up all the time and
00:26:31.380 calling me she. That's when I started to problematize my body and my God-given traits
00:26:39.180 and feeling like, okay, everything about me is wrong. Like not just meant, not just psychologically
00:26:48.540 or socially or whatever, but physically like the, my breasts are a birth defect and my voice is wrong.
00:26:55.320 I should have been, I was born in the wrong body. I should have been born in a male body. And I did not 1.00
00:27:02.440 go through a male puberty and that's a huge problem. I'm 18 years old and I look like a 12 year old 0.99
00:27:09.160 boy, if anything. So I felt like there was a sense of urgency to get on hormones and to
00:27:17.860 fix the horrible problem. That was my body.
00:27:21.300 So you started on the testosterone when you were 18 and like, how exactly does that work? I've had
00:27:42.060 a few detransitioners on the show and they've kind of said different things, but like, did they just
00:27:48.020 send you home with a box of testosterone shots and you self-administered those? Like, did you have
00:27:53.740 an endocrinologist or anyone who was checking up on you to make sure like you weren't injecting them
00:27:58.860 all at the same time or anything? Yeah. I had a couple of follow-up meetings with an endocrinologist,
00:28:04.860 um, but they didn't watch me particularly closely. Um, I do remember one, at one point I had asked to
00:28:16.080 like increase my dosage, um, because I felt like it wasn't working quick enough. And so I was
00:28:26.140 injecting, I don't remember what the exact amount was, but then I came back to get my levels checked and
00:28:32.920 they said that, Oh, this is way too much. And if you, if you inject too much, then it's going to
00:28:41.960 convert back into estrogen actually. So they, they really were also, they were not focused on the
00:28:48.360 scientific side of it as like, they were also obsessed with the aesthetics. Like I remember
00:28:51.960 asking me like, so what do you want to look like? Do you want a beard? Do you want to be super buff?
00:28:56.200 I'm like, it's not possible for me to be super buff. First of all, like I tried, it's not, I, but it,
00:29:05.000 yeah, it was, it was like the way that they viewed bodies. It was like, they were so,
00:29:11.640 they're so customizable, you know? Um, and I just remember like some red flags going up. Like
00:29:21.140 one of the doctors that I saw at one of my follow-up visits went by, um, went by dinosaur
00:29:27.680 pronouns, like sore, sore self. What? Yeah. And I was like, did you have to try to like respect those
00:29:36.040 pronouns? Like, Oh my goodness. It was like one, it was like one of the options. It was like, Oh,
00:29:41.320 I like he, they are sore. And I'm like, come again. She's like, yeah. Like dinosaur. I was like,
00:29:47.260 valid. Okay. Okay. Well, we're told that that has to be valid, just as valid as anything else.
00:29:55.060 Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, I don't know. I think I was probably 19 at that time. And I remember
00:30:00.920 thinking that's a little kooky. Like you're a dog, you're a doctor. Yeah. Um, wow. So yeah,
00:30:09.620 it was definitely a weird experience there. And then two years on the hormones, I is when I had
00:30:19.060 the double mastectomy, uh, at 20. Were you in college? Did you have a job? Yeah, I was in college
00:30:25.780 and I had a job. Um, I, I really wanted to just like blend in. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't transition
00:30:35.640 for attention or anything. I just wanted to, you know, make myself look as male as possible
00:30:41.960 and be stealth, which is basically when nobody knows that I'm trans and everyone just sees me as
00:30:51.380 a guy. Um, and how did you feel after you started, um, going on testosterone mentally and physically?
00:31:00.080 Um, really good in some ways. So, oh, I forgot to mention this. This is pretty significant. So,
00:31:08.500 uh, at the end of high school, I became very suicidal and was starting to have like a, a plan.
00:31:17.880 Um, and I went to the hospital and I was in an inpatient program and I was identifying as trans
00:31:25.940 at this time, but I wasn't, you attempted suicide or just because you told, you knew that you were
00:31:30.900 about to try. Yeah. I knew I was about to try and I, and I told my mom about it and she, uh, was like,
00:31:39.860 okay, that's it. We're taking you to the hospital. Thank God you told your mom. Yeah. I mean, I was,
00:31:44.200 I was having like a mental breakdown, but, um, yeah. So I was identifying as trans. I was not on 0.92
00:31:51.520 testosterone yet. So I still looked basically like a female or maybe like a very young boy. Um,
00:31:58.440 and I spent six days in this, um, inpatient mental health facility and none of the doctors there asked
00:32:08.140 really, like they knew I was trans, but they didn't, they didn't relate that to any of my other
00:32:16.940 problems. Um, they kind of just seem to see that as just like, Oh yeah, that's normal. That's valid.
00:32:24.940 You know? Um, and literally two months after I was released is when I went on hormones and they also
00:32:33.160 prescribed me Zoloft, like a high dose. So I went on Zoloft and went on testosterone at the same time
00:32:41.720 and nobody really bat an eye at it or, you know, questioned if maybe that would have adverse effects.
00:32:50.720 I was manic. I was very, I felt like a different person. I felt like I had a very different psychology
00:33:00.880 because I think the testosterone gave me a lot of energy. Um, I was uncontrollably angry
00:33:08.220 in a way that I had never felt before. I felt like whenever I would get angry, I wanted to like,
00:33:16.120 actually like hurt people or just like punch something or just like physically express that
00:33:22.780 anger. And, uh, it just, you know, it put me through a male puberty. Yeah. So it was very, um,
00:33:33.900 it was very overwhelming to deal with. Um, and I think, I don't know exactly how it interacted with
00:33:42.540 the Zoloft, but, um, I remember thinking, Oh, this, these feelings of like feeling manic is cause
00:33:52.440 that's how my therapist actually described it. I've never been diagnosed with, with bipolar,
00:33:57.820 but she was like, you are exhibiting, you're like scaring me. Like you're talking a mile a minute.
00:34:04.240 You're exhibiting behavior of someone who's going through a manic episode. And I thought, Oh, it must
00:34:08.720 be the Zoloft, not, not the testosterone that can't have anything to do with it. Um, and you know,
00:34:17.140 when you're manic, you kind of feel good, but it's also a very dangerous, I mean, I'm not a psychologist,
00:34:24.100 but what I was told is it is actually a very dangerous place to be in and you're actually
00:34:29.420 more likely to harm yourself. Um, because you make, it makes you like make very rash decisions
00:34:37.960 and it makes you act much more impulsively. Um, and yeah, I definitely felt that happening. So it was a
00:34:46.500 really, uh, strange time for me. I kind of felt like I went crazy a little bit and the clinic
00:34:55.700 admit administering or giving you the testosterone, they didn't say, Hey, like, are you on any like,
00:35:04.480 uh, middle health medications or do you have a history of mental health that were they concerned
00:35:10.680 at all with underlying conditions? I don't recall them asking me that. Yeah. Well, obviously,
00:35:17.660 even if they did ask you, it didn't stop them from giving you the testosterone and celebrating
00:35:23.180 your transition.
00:35:24.820 After you were on testosterone for a couple of years, you said that you
00:35:40.160 wouldn't take it a double mastectomy at this point. You're what? 20, 21, 1920. Okay. 1920. Um,
00:35:47.280 yeah. So I was looking for, uh, a surgeon in Chicago who would do it. It wasn't
00:35:54.820 it wasn't particularly hard to find one because at this point, the whole transgender thing in culture 1.00
00:36:02.160 was probably like at its peak point of acceptance at this point. Cause, um,
00:36:11.920 Caitlyn Jenner had just come out and it was a huge, you know, part of the social conversation.
00:36:18.620 Yeah. And, um, I think at first generally the culture was just kind of like, okay, yeah,
00:36:28.020 you do you, you know, if gender dysphoria, it's in the DSM five, you know, trans people seem to be
00:36:35.920 happy. Like, so it wasn't, it wasn't hard to find someone. I don't think it would be now,
00:36:42.720 but, um, so I called this surgeon's office and there was a longer wait list. They couldn't get
00:36:52.500 me in quickly, but that's because there were a lot of people seeking the surgery. Um, and so I think
00:36:59.860 I waited maybe six to eight months before I had the consultation where she, she did tell me like,
00:37:10.340 you won't be able to breastfeed if you get this surgery. And I was fully operating under the
00:37:18.040 assumption that I would be trans for the rest of my life. And, you know, I would have told you that
00:37:23.420 I wanted to have a family, but at, at the time having biological children and breastfeeding was like
00:37:29.980 not important to me at all. I was like, I don't, I'm a man. I'm not, why would I get pregnant? You
00:37:36.440 know? Um, so I probably thought that I was actually going to do surrogacy, which, you know,
00:37:43.320 I thought was just like this great thing. Um, also being completely ignorant of how expensive it is
00:37:49.860 to do something like that. Um, or maybe I would adopt and, you know, I don't like, I think it takes
00:37:56.220 a very, very special type of person to adopt a child. And so I, you know, I wasn't really sure
00:38:02.180 about that, but I was like, whatever, I'll be like 35 when I want to do that. So I'll figure it
00:38:08.840 out. Um, so that's, that's why I still decided to go through with it despite knowing that I
00:38:17.600 wouldn't be able to breastfeed. Um, and yeah, I, the top surgery, it was scheduled. Um, I'm not sure
00:38:27.760 how long after that consultation, maybe, maybe four to six months. Um, and, uh, I went in and I got
00:38:38.660 up really early at like 5am and went in and my parents showed up and they were really visibly sad
00:38:50.280 about it. Um, it's makes me really sad now thinking about like what must've been going
00:38:59.000 through their heads. I remember my grandmother called me the night before and she's like the
00:39:04.360 spiritual matriarch of my family. Like she's, she, um, she passed away about a year ago, God rest her 0.96
00:39:11.740 soul. But she was just, she called me crying and she asked me like, has your heart turned to stone?
00:39:18.000 And I was like, I just hearing that from her, I was like, man, that is, she's never said anything
00:39:24.340 like this to me before. Like she's never sounded so desperate and I did it anyway.
00:39:36.200 I hope you enjoyed part one of that conversation. Part two will include more about her testimony and,
00:39:44.580 um, how she came to faith in God. And so you won't want to miss that. We will be back
00:39:49.880 with that segment of the conversation very soon. Thanks so much for listening and watching. We will
00:39:56.180 see you again next time.