Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - January 15, 2024


Ep 933 ｜ DEBATE： Should We Ban Surrogacy？ ｜ Guest： Clarkson Lawson


Episode Stats


Length

52 minutes

Words per minute

190.63698

Word count

10,031

Sentence count

637

Harmful content

Misogyny

8

sentences flagged

Hate speech

30

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Is theocratic Christianity ruining the Republican Party and is surrogacy really as bad as Clarkson Lawson says it is? We are debating this today with a conservative political commentator who is also gay and notably less conservative than I would say on many issues than I am.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Are theocratic Christians ruining the Republican Party and is surrogacy really as bad as I 0.99
00:00:08.680 say it is?
00:00:09.520 We are debating this today with a conservative political commentator who is also gay and
00:00:17.940 notably less conservative, I would say, on many issues than I am.
00:00:24.200 And we are talking today in a rather heated discussion about some of the issues that
00:00:30.360 I just listed.
00:00:31.100 But hopefully you get a lot out of it.
00:00:32.600 I do think it was a productive conversation.
00:00:34.700 You are going to be able to see either side of the surrogacy issue.
00:00:40.360 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
00:00:42.960 Go to GoodRanchers.com.
00:00:44.260 Use code Allie at checkout. 1.00
00:00:45.760 That's GoodRanchers.com.
00:00:46.780 Code Allie. 1.00
00:00:54.200 Clarkson, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.
00:00:59.620 Could you tell everyone who you are and what you do?
00:01:02.300 Yeah, my name is Clarkson Lawson.
00:01:04.060 So I am a, I guess, aspiring political commentator.
00:01:07.440 I'm kind of on the up and up, I would say.
00:01:10.660 But it's been just about two years of me doing social media and I'm transitioning into it
00:01:16.040 full time now.
00:01:17.040 OK, gotcha.
00:01:17.980 And I first saw you or your tweets when you commented, I think, on the issue of surrogacy.
00:01:25.080 Now, this is something that I talk about a lot.
00:01:27.240 I am against surrogacy and we do not, we don't fall in line. 0.90
00:01:33.280 Let me, let me, let me read your tweet that I first came across.
00:01:38.460 This is human trafficking.
00:01:39.840 No one is, OK, so just for the people listening, you're quoting this.
00:01:43.780 This is human trafficking.
00:01:44.760 Your response is, no one is participating against their will.
00:01:48.560 You quote, babies are not for sale.
00:01:50.540 You respond, OK, so you're against adoption too?
00:01:53.960 You quote, this is unnatural.
00:01:55.860 Your response is, not everything that is natural is deemed morally right.
00:01:59.500 It comes naturally to us to lie, cheat, and steal.
00:02:02.620 Does that mean we should partake in the activity because it's natural?
00:02:05.820 It's God's plan.
00:02:06.820 You quote, your response is, religion is by far the weakest argument you can make when
00:02:11.380 trying to take away people's rights.
00:02:13.200 And then you say, pearl-clutching theocratic conservatives are what ruin our party.
00:02:18.600 Regardless of what the internet mob says, I can't wait to eventually be a father.
00:02:23.100 And I will love that child better than most straight parents.
00:02:26.840 And so you are gay, I'm assuming, correct? 0.97
00:02:29.040 Yeah.
00:02:29.440 OK, so I would love to just kind of give you the opportunity to expand on this and to tell
00:02:35.740 me your view of surrogacy and reproduction and what creates a family.
00:02:41.180 Yeah, and I just want to preface this by saying that is clearly an emotionally charged tweet.
00:02:45.980 Going back what I reworded a little bit, yes.
00:02:48.820 Do I take my words back?
00:02:50.080 No.
00:02:51.940 Essentially, the premise of surrogacy for me is that life is a gift.
00:02:56.000 And I don't believe that any, you know, preconceived circumstance of that child
00:03:02.100 warrants taking away that gift.
00:03:04.100 And I think a lot of times on the right, we can see very religious theocratic conservatives
00:03:10.160 use the power of government to force ideas onto people, whereas we see that on the left
00:03:15.040 too.
00:03:15.500 It's just their religion is wokeism, whereas on the right, it's Christianity. 0.83
00:03:19.220 And I'll preface that by saying I think the left is far more dangerous to our country than
00:03:22.740 the religious right.
00:03:23.840 But I do think that given our country who is declining and, you know, being a part of
00:03:29.940 religion, I think that using religion as your sole basis for the argument of what is natural
00:03:34.860 and what is not is what turns people off from our party.
00:03:38.400 OK, so you think that being anti-surrogacy is kind of a theocratic, tyrannical position,
00:03:46.040 correct?
00:03:47.580 For most.
00:03:48.300 Now, it depends.
00:03:49.340 It depends on where you base your argument.
00:03:51.000 If you base your argument of, well, it's against what God designed for us, then yes,
00:03:55.420 I would say that's a theocratic argument.
00:03:57.140 If you bring logic and reason, I may disagree with it, but I'm not going to say that's a
00:04:01.120 theocratic argument.
00:04:01.940 It all depends on the stance that you take.
00:04:03.820 OK, several countries ban surrogacy.
00:04:07.640 America is really the wild, wild west when it comes to the reproductive industry, when it 0.95
00:04:11.520 comes to IVF, when it comes to embryo adoption, when it comes to putting embryos on ice, and certainly
00:04:17.340 when it comes to surrogacy.
00:04:19.180 Most countries, including liberal countries like Canada, are far more restrictive when
00:04:25.000 it comes to surrogacy.
00:04:26.220 And I don't think anyone could logically argue that these are theocratic countries.
00:04:32.180 And so there are other reasons.
00:04:33.560 No, you're absolutely right.
00:04:34.640 There are other reasons why people oppose surrogacy that don't have to do with God,
00:04:39.620 although I think, of course, that's a good reason.
00:04:43.740 That's, of course, the reason that the founders have granted the rights that we do, because
00:04:48.240 we are all created by a God who has endowed us with certain unalienable rights.
00:04:52.520 And that, of course, has not led to us being a theocracy, but has actually led to us being
00:04:56.220 a free country.
00:04:56.960 So I disagree with this idea that if you start with God, then you are some kind of theocratic
00:05:01.120 tyrant.
00:05:01.700 But I also disagree that God is the only reason why someone would oppose surrogacy when you
00:05:09.940 look at kind of the exploitative practice that it is when it comes to women and children.
00:05:14.400 But go ahead.
00:05:15.800 OK, so the first thing I want to visit is the countries that ban surrogacy.
00:05:19.940 You're saying you're framing surrogacy or being anti-surrogacy as a conservative stance.
00:05:24.620 But the fact is that you just admitted that these countries are very liberal.
00:05:27.840 No, I didn't say that they were a conservative stance necessarily.
00:05:31.720 I just don't think that they're a bad stance or certainly not a tyrannical, theocratic stance.
00:05:37.120 Right.
00:05:37.720 But the thing is, is Canada doesn't ban altruistic surrogacy.
00:05:40.980 They ban surrogacy in the stance because they don't want capital involved in the service.
00:05:45.940 So first off, the only reason Canada, it's not because they think surrogacy is bad.
00:05:50.020 It's because they believe that capital essentially corrupts the practice.
00:05:53.720 And that is an anti-capitalist stance.
00:05:55.620 Just because capital is involved in an exchange of goods and services doesn't automatically make it corrupt.
00:06:00.600 Second of all, these countries that have surrogacy banned were the same countries that were lining up their citizens to force them to get a shot.
00:06:07.120 They clearly don't respect bodily autonomy.
00:06:09.540 So I don't think they're a shining example of what conservatives should be believing in.
00:06:13.180 It's not saying that they are shining examples of what conservatives should believe in in all cases.
00:06:18.700 The point is that it is not necessarily a theocratic tyrannical position to be anti-surrogacy.
00:06:25.220 And I will say just for what you what you mentioned about capital, 98 percent of surrogacy cases are for profit.
00:06:34.620 Altruistic surrogacy is not the norm.
00:06:38.120 It is extremely.
00:06:39.180 It is extremely rare that that happens.
00:06:41.700 And being anti-capitalist is not necessary to be against the selling of bodies.
00:06:50.260 And that is part of surrogacy.
00:06:52.640 You can be pro-capitalist.
00:06:53.780 It's not the selling of bodies.
00:06:55.120 It's the selling of a service.
00:06:56.420 Let me say.
00:06:57.880 You can be pro-capitalism and still think that buying and selling some things is wrong.
00:07:03.420 Correct?
00:07:03.660 Does that make me anti-capitalist if I say, oh, let's get capital out of some things?
00:07:09.140 Because it does corrupt it.
00:07:10.680 Like, I think that we would probably agree that the capital, the profits that are involved in the manufacturing of some pharmaceutical product, that it's the capital.
00:07:19.840 It's the money that actually kind of corrupts the process.
00:07:22.420 We understand that pay for play when it comes to politics.
00:07:24.920 That's an anti-capitalist position.
00:07:26.680 That's an anti-corruption position.
00:07:28.160 Yeah, but the whole premise is we can regulate these industries to alleviate some of the potential corruption.
00:07:35.540 I don't think that money is the sole reason for something to be corrupt.
00:07:38.460 Just like I don't think guns are the reason for people to shoot.
00:07:41.600 So I think that surrogacy has a lot of gray areas that we could regulate.
00:07:46.700 But if we're going to go through the path of, okay, this needs to be banned, then we're not even coming to the table looking to solve for the potential corruption that could happen with it.
00:07:54.960 Because if you have a problem with the entire premise of surrogacy, then there's really no point in even having the conversation of, you know, okay, well, how can we alleviate some of this potential corruption?
00:08:05.760 Because you're not coming to the table with compromise.
00:08:07.440 You're coming to the table with, I don't believe this.
00:08:09.400 This needs to be banned.
00:08:10.800 And that's my belief.
00:08:12.180 And I'm not wavering from that.
00:08:13.540 So I think that, yes, there are a lot of things that we could fix with surrogacy.
00:08:17.340 We could make sure that potential surrogates are more informed in the risks associated with it, making sure that, you know, they're legally protected.
00:08:26.680 But I come to the table in politics looking for compromise.
00:08:30.060 And I think that both sides of this issue need to go into it in order to actually find solutions doing that.
00:08:47.340 Okay, let me explain my position on surrogacy, and then I will give you the opportunity to respond.
00:08:53.460 Because one thing that you said was that when you are paying for the surrogacy process, you are paying for a service.
00:09:00.320 You're not paying for human bodies, but you are paying for DNA.
00:09:03.900 When it comes to two men, for example, you mentioned in this tweet that you would like to become a father.
00:09:08.060 I don't know if you meant through surrogacy or through adoption.
00:09:10.460 That's a whole different conversation.
00:09:12.000 But say it's through surrogacy, you and your partner would have to find an egg donor, and you would be paying for her eggs. 0.99
00:09:19.200 You would open a catalog, and you would probably pick the egg donor that you think looks best or has the best characteristics that you would want to pass down to your child.
00:09:28.520 And so you are purchasing the DNA, purchasing the eggs from one woman who has to go through a hormonal process, medical process, in order to retrieve her eggs.
00:09:36.920 That's one thing.
00:09:38.000 And then you would have to choose a surrogate.
00:09:40.460 So you would be taking the DNA from the biological mother, implanting that DNA into another woman who would then be gestating that child.
00:09:49.480 And then you are taking that child away from both his biological mother and the mother that he has bonded with for nine months.
00:09:55.980 You are taking him into your arms.
00:09:57.620 And at this point, you are a relative stranger.
00:09:59.880 And so the two bonds with the women that he has already created, his biological bond to his mother and also the physiological bond that we have all created with the women who have carried us, you are ripping that child away from both simply because you want a child.
00:10:15.880 I think that is the degradation of child's rights.
00:10:18.800 We're not even thinking about, well, what is the bond that's created?
00:10:23.140 Is it important to have that connection to the biological mother?
00:10:26.340 You are buying DNA from one woman. 0.96
00:10:29.160 You are renting the womb of another woman. 1.00
00:10:31.040 And you are robbing the child of the opportunity to have a relationship either with the woman who carried him or his biological mom. 0.71
00:10:38.120 That, to me, is, yes, unethical.
00:10:40.440 And if we care about children's rights, and I think that we should, I absolutely think it's in the interest of the government to intervene.
00:10:47.840 Well, this is operating under the assumption that that child doesn't have the will to live.
00:10:54.160 This child wouldn't be created without surrogacy.
00:10:57.460 Yes.
00:10:58.440 Will to live.
00:10:59.620 What does that mean?
00:11:00.760 Will to live?
00:11:01.540 It's implied.
00:11:02.600 It's implied consent.
00:11:04.100 Exactly.
00:11:04.920 Because life is a gift.
00:11:06.240 That's the thing, Allie, is that you're saying that this perceived circumstance of the child says that this is the value of this child's life.
00:11:13.580 And since we're going to put them in this position, they don't get to live.
00:11:16.620 You shouldn't have a kid because this is the perceived situation that this child's going to have.
00:11:21.340 And you're also operating.
00:11:22.720 Yes, perceived.
00:11:23.680 Because there are plenty of kids from surrogacy who come out and are very grateful for the process, have great lives, are very happy.
00:11:30.220 But you're disregarding them and saying that, oh, well, because of surrogacy, which we agree, if I go through the process of surrogacy, I want to make sure that my child, because with puppies, we keep them with the biological mother for three months.
00:11:42.680 It's weird to me that you just rip that baby from surrogacy.
00:11:45.300 That, to me, is weird.
00:11:46.320 And that's one of those gray areas that I'm like, okay, we need to look into this.
00:11:49.740 But to sit here and say that a child is going to be away from their biological mother and father, therefore they should not be born, is very weird to me.
00:11:58.920 That we don't weigh the cost-to-benefit ratio and say, yes, even if this child's going to be affected by that, they should be able to live.
00:12:07.740 We should still understand the value of life and the gift that it brings to say that this circumstance doesn't warrant not allowing them to be created.
00:12:15.720 So we are okay with purposely creating a child.
00:12:19.940 Here's the difference between this and adoption.
00:12:22.200 Adoption, the life has already been created.
00:12:24.180 Okay?
00:12:24.460 It's already there.
00:12:25.880 Adoption is the next best option for parents who cannot, for whatever reason, take care of the child.
00:12:31.380 Maybe they didn't mean to conceive the child.
00:12:32.880 Whatever the situation is, these parents feel like they cannot take care of the child.
00:12:36.560 And so adoption can redeem a broken situation.
00:12:40.560 But surrogacy actually purposely creates that broken situation because you're saying, okay, I know this child is going to be raised without a mother.
00:12:46.900 I know we are going to have to break the bond that that child has created.
00:12:49.580 Not always without a mother.
00:12:50.640 It depends if it's a straight family.
00:12:53.080 Well, we're talking about in the situation that you were commenting on on Twitter.
00:12:58.100 Okay.
00:12:58.420 But you're correct, I guess, in general.
00:13:01.160 If a straight couple uses a surrogate, I'm still against it no matter what. 0.78
00:13:04.380 It's not that I'm just picking on gay people.
00:13:06.160 I'm against it no matter what.
00:13:07.100 No, no, no.
00:13:07.420 I know.
00:13:07.640 I just, yeah.
00:13:08.300 But anyway, so, but in your case, in the case that we're talking about here where it's two men, you are purposely creating that child, purposely creating that child to take them through a process that you know is going to break a natural bond on purpose.
00:13:26.560 And you're saying, even if we know that that child has a very high likelihood of being somehow negatively impacted by that, that's okay because, well, I just want to be a dad.
00:13:41.400 I want a child.
00:13:42.380 No, no, it's not.
00:13:44.320 That's not necessarily mean that we are okay with conception by any means possible.
00:13:50.500 Yes, we are anti-killing children, of course, once they've already been conceived, of course.
00:13:55.020 But that does not mean that I'm okay with every kind of conception.
00:13:59.940 All life is valuable.
00:14:01.340 Kids carried through surrogacy, through IVF, of course.
00:14:03.580 I believe we're all made in the image of God.
00:14:05.240 That means they have innate worth.
00:14:06.680 That doesn't mean I have to agree with every form of conception and gestation.
00:14:12.740 Yeah, but you're also assuming that it's automatically a broken situation, which it's not.
00:14:16.700 It is.
00:14:17.100 You are breaking a bond.
00:14:18.060 You're breaking the bond from the biological mother and the surrogate, period. 0.94
00:14:21.500 Unless you say, oh, no, I want this biological mother and the surrogate to be a part of this child's life, creating some kind of strange polycule situation, which I also don't think is healthy. 0.99
00:14:32.200 Yes, you are breaking the bond from the moment of conception.
00:14:35.180 You are breaking the bond between this child and his biological mother.
00:14:38.400 That is brokenness.
00:14:39.460 And you're saying that's okay because, well, you want to have kids.
00:14:43.200 I think that children's rights should go above adults' wishes. 1.00
00:14:47.460 That's my stance.
00:14:48.240 I think that, but, okay, I understand your stance because you're putting, you're assuming that that child is going to look at the situation and that child's, what you would describe as a broken home and saying, okay, well, you're being selfish because you want a kid and you're not even thinking about the child.
00:15:02.820 And that's not the case.
00:15:03.600 The case is, is that I'm looking at the cost to benefit ratio, and I'm not going to assume that just because my child may not like the fact that they were born out of surrogacy or may be negatively impacted, which we don't even have enough studies to prove that that's true.
00:15:21.260 There are some people who are negatively impacted, but to correlate that with surrogacy and say all children are just bound to have this broken situation, to me, and I'm sure to people who were born out of surrogacy would find that offensive, but that situation doesn't outweigh the benefit of life.
00:15:39.480 And I think it's, it's insane to me that in a country that is, first of all, women are not having children. 0.96
00:15:46.080 So we'll start with that.
00:15:47.280 We're not having children.
00:15:48.480 So we really aren't really in a position to be policing who should and shouldn't have children based off of their perceived circumstance.
00:15:53.640 But I think it's crazy that I'm having to sit here and defend the value of life on the conservative side because this is the same, that is what's happening because you're life just because we're anti-surrogacy.
00:16:07.840 You know that I know.
00:16:09.480 No, it's not that you devalue it.
00:16:10.900 It's not that you devalue it.
00:16:12.060 It's that you're putting your perceived risks, which aren't even proven because surrogacy hasn't been studied enough, and you're outweighing life with those risks.
00:16:20.180 You're saying that these risks make this life not worth being created.
00:16:23.640 It's not even just about risks because I do think that that would be a little anecdotal, although I do think those anecdotes and those testimonies are absolutely worth listening to and do have weight.
00:16:34.440 I've spoken to on this couch several people who have been born via sperm donation, egg donation, via surrogacy, and here's what they would say.
00:16:45.160 And I'm not saying and they would not say that they are speaking for all people in their situation.
00:16:49.600 So you're right about that.
00:16:51.060 There's going to be conflicting testimonies.
00:16:52.920 Absolutely.
00:16:53.640 But what I hear from them is true of many people that you will find online.
00:16:59.240 They will say, I love my parents.
00:17:02.060 I love my two dads.
00:17:03.320 I love my two moms.
00:17:04.120 I love my mom and dad.
00:17:05.160 Whatever.
00:17:05.640 However they were conceived when it's through these ways.
00:17:07.640 And, you know, I had a good life.
00:17:09.460 And yet I always wanted to know who my mom was, who the woman was who carried me, who my dad was if they were born via sperm donation.
00:17:18.340 And I was left without that.
00:17:20.420 I have to go to the doctor and I don't have half of my medical history because of that.
00:17:26.080 I always wanted to know how my mom, the egg donor or the surrogate could have sold me to people.
00:17:32.100 And even though, yeah, the two people who raised me, sure, they wanted me.
00:17:36.580 But they would say my conception was being sold, was being put into a test tube by someone who just wanted money.
00:17:44.760 And whether we know it or not, all of us want to know who we are and where we come from.
00:17:50.920 This is a very essential need.
00:17:53.040 And yes, surrogacy breaks that.
00:17:55.260 It breaks that bond.
00:17:56.260 So whether or not someone has come to terms with how they were conceived or come to terms that whether or not someone has that testimony,
00:18:03.720 we are taking away a right in principle of someone to be raised by, in certain situations, a mom and a dad, but also to know who they are and from where they come.
00:18:17.640 We are taking that away from children.
00:18:19.680 And the fact that we don't know the consequences of it is not a good justification for saying, well, we should just go on with it anyway.
00:18:26.740 Well, no, actually, it is because in a free country, you have to prove why something should be illegal before you make it illegal.
00:18:32.180 We need to take away someone's rights before we prove that there is a consequence to it.
00:18:36.900 I mean, you could say, well, let's take away the right to free speech.
00:18:40.380 Let's take away these rights, and then we'll see if there's consequences to it, and then we can work backwards.
00:18:45.520 No, whenever we go from what is natural, I'm talking biologically natural, what is natural to what is possible,
00:18:54.460 we always have to ask questions, what is being lost here?
00:18:59.080 What are the ethical consequences?
00:19:00.900 What are the repercussions to this before we make that leap?
00:19:05.240 But we've already made the leap.
00:19:06.360 We've gone from what's natural to what's possible via technology, and we're not even asking, is this ethical?
00:19:13.260 Is this moral?
00:19:14.300 What is the consequence on a child here?
00:19:16.680 And so we're just going ahead because, again, we care more about what adults want than what children need.
00:19:23.860 And that is wrong to me.
00:19:37.420 Now, first, there are studies of surrogate children that, but I'm not going to be the one to say,
00:19:43.300 okay, well, these are the studies that work because they're small.
00:19:45.520 And I'll be honest about that.
00:19:46.840 They are small.
00:19:47.420 But the point that I'm trying to make is that in a free country,
00:19:49.600 you have to prove why something should be illegal before you make it illegal.
00:19:52.660 It is on you to prove.
00:19:55.400 And these situations that you're bringing up where kids are longing to see their biological mother and their biological father,
00:20:01.780 I get that.
00:20:02.900 And if I do go down this path, I'm going to understand that.
00:20:06.220 And I think 100% transparency, even if that was,
00:20:09.200 if it was illegal to lie to your child about where they come from, I would be okay with that. 1.00
00:20:12.480 That's a gray area that I think we can reform because every child does deserve to know where they come from.
00:20:16.600 However, to say that that trauma is the result of a bond separated at birth rather than the result of poor parenting and not being transparent with your child,
00:20:28.640 to me, it's a fallacy.
00:20:31.060 You can't say that.
00:20:31.840 What is that trauma?
00:20:32.780 What's fallacious about it?
00:20:34.060 Do you not see how that could be traumatic?
00:20:36.760 And also there are plenty of studies about the primal wound, even when it comes to adoption, which I am for.
00:20:42.340 And I think that's a beautiful situation.
00:20:43.780 There is still a primal wound that happens when a baby is separated from his mother.
00:20:48.440 The difference between adoption is, again, that redeems a broken situation, whereas surrogacy, egg donation,
00:20:53.260 you're purposely creating that situation and breaking that bond.
00:20:58.400 And so this is not like a religious or superstitious belief that I have.
00:21:03.220 There's also this study.
00:21:04.320 There's a 2011 study.
00:21:05.660 This is not even about surrogacy.
00:21:07.160 But there are so many studies like this.
00:21:09.240 This is maternal separation stresses the baby, research finds.
00:21:12.580 Researchers measured heart rate variability in two-day-old sleeping babies for one hour each during skin-to-skin contact with mother
00:21:19.180 and alone in a cot next to the mother's bed.
00:21:21.420 Neonatal autotonic activity was 176% higher and quiet sleep 86% lower during maternal separation compared to skin-to-skin contact.
00:21:31.320 Now, let's extrapolate the principle that we see here.
00:21:34.360 We are causing purposeful stress to a child of a surrogate by taking them away from the heartbeat, the smell, the sound, and the feel of the woman that they have bonded with for nine months. 0.77
00:21:44.060 But the question is for how long?
00:21:45.900 Why?
00:21:46.640 Because we agree there.
00:21:47.460 We agree there because there are no studies.
00:21:49.980 Okay, so if it's for six weeks.
00:21:51.220 For six months.
00:21:52.540 If it's for six years.
00:21:53.420 Because it's the same.
00:21:54.520 Don't you see?
00:21:55.220 But you are saying that this child has to carry an unnecessary burden, whether it's for 24 hours or 24 minutes or 24 years.
00:22:06.060 Why?
00:22:06.520 Because parents decided that they want it.
00:22:09.020 You are forcing a child to carry a burden of stress.
00:22:11.540 No, we're talking about a scientific response to the mother.
00:22:17.500 And the question is, is that we need to figure out when that is okay.
00:22:21.760 If we studied it and it says, okay, this traumatic response lasts six months, I would be okay with saying any surrogacy contracts have to be, we have to fit that in.
00:22:31.900 But do you know why?
00:22:32.360 I would be okay with that.
00:22:32.880 But you're.
00:22:33.360 Do you know why, Clarkson, that that's not happening?
00:22:36.840 I know why.
00:22:37.720 Why?
00:22:38.300 Yeah, because I'm sure there are lobbyists in the IVF industry that don't want those studies to happen, which I disagree with.
00:22:44.220 No, but do you know why right now it is not legal for a surrogate to hold her baby after for six hours or six months?
00:22:53.320 Do you know why?
00:22:54.460 Can you think about why that is?
00:22:55.500 Sure, because I'm sure, because I'm sure the mother will have some, an attachment to that child.
00:23:00.440 Why do you think that is, Clarkson?
00:23:02.040 Why do you think that is?
00:23:02.940 Because we, what are you, you're talking like, I didn't just hear the study you read, because clearly there's a bond between the child and the mother.
00:23:08.520 I'm not denying that.
00:23:09.340 Right.
00:23:10.180 I'm not denying that.
00:23:11.060 I'm just saying.
00:23:12.360 That's why we treat these babies worse than we treat puppies or kittens, because there is a bond in there.
00:23:16.360 But you're talking about the mother, not the baby.
00:23:18.040 We need to.
00:23:19.400 Both.
00:23:19.580 Okay, but you're talking about the mother, I'm talking about the baby.
00:23:23.160 We need to figure out, because the mother consents to the process. 1.00
00:23:26.360 That's the truth.
00:23:27.600 If you consent to it in the same way that a coal miner consents to risking their life every day, if somebody enters into a surrogacy contract, and a lot of mothers find tremendous purpose in this, first of all.
00:23:36.920 So I don't want to negate the surrogate mothers, but you can't sit here and say that, oh, well, that bond automatically equals surrogacy being wrong.
00:23:48.340 And I don't think that's true.
00:23:49.920 I think we need to study and figure out the best possible outcome for the child, and then relay that information to the mother.
00:23:57.560 And if a mother with the right to bodily autonomy chooses to enter into one of those contracts, they should be informed on it.
00:24:03.900 I don't think it should be banned, but I don't disagree with you.
00:24:06.440 I think that there are ethical concerns with how the industry currently is working, but I don't think that those ethical concerns right now warrant a complete and entire ban on the practice.
00:24:18.340 Why not?
00:24:19.600 Why do you think that it is ethical or should be legal to cause that kind of bond separation and known suffering and stress to a child in their earliest hours?
00:24:32.000 Why is that not sufficient to say, you know, as many other countries have, to take a step back and say, you know what?
00:24:38.660 Children do have rights, and we don't get to treat them worse than we treat puppies or kittens.
00:24:43.420 And we need to start respecting their rights, their right when it comes to how they're conceived, how they're gestated, how they're bought and purchased, not even to mention the whole IVF process, which is inherent in surrogacy that causes embryos to be indefinitely placed on ice.
00:25:00.100 Like, the pro-life position is that these are human beings, and human beings should have human rights.
00:25:05.800 And I believe that children have a right to their mother.
00:25:10.140 They have a right to their mother.
00:25:12.440 And I don't see the justification for taking that away just because adults have decided that they want a child.
00:25:19.760 I don't think that – I think that you're assuming that you're taking something away from a child that would not even have the opportunity to live without it.
00:25:30.200 There are parents, straight parents, who can never conceive.
00:25:34.260 And you're saying that – I just – I don't understand how this perceived circumstance, which is clearly, as we both agree, not studied enough.
00:25:41.760 I don't understand how we can say that this child is going to – what you're saying is all – you're assuming that this child is going to be in this situation, we're breaking this bond, therefore, this child shouldn't be lived.
00:25:54.960 Rather than let's alleviate that situation, let's figure out a way to scientifically make sure that this can be avoided, which is the position I'm taking.
00:26:04.020 I'm saying we need to look into this and figure out how we can avoid this.
00:26:06.820 Because you're saying this is the situation, this child shouldn't be born.
00:26:13.080 I don't understand that.
00:26:14.240 It's not that I don't think that the child should be born.
00:26:17.120 It's that I don't believe that the child should be conceived with this intention.
00:26:21.200 So I'm not talking about taking a life.
00:26:23.080 I'm talking about not creating a life with the purpose.
00:26:24.740 Yeah, but a child can't – they can't be conceived.
00:26:26.100 With the purpose – yeah, with the purpose of robbing them of that so important physiological bond that we create with mothers.
00:26:36.820 When it comes to the redefinition of families, I'm sure that we also disagree on that.
00:26:51.940 Marriage is between – has long been before the establishment of the United States, an institution between a man and a woman, not only because of the creation order that we read in the Bible, but also because it is the only natural child-creating institution that exists.
00:27:12.060 And in that, it is unique.
00:27:14.720 And you are, I'm guessing, of the position that it is okay for two men or two women to raise a child via sperm egg donation, whatever, in the same way that it would be okay for a man and a woman to do that.
00:27:29.620 Correct.
00:27:30.980 And you don't see any –
00:27:32.700 Now, we do agree, though, with the marriage, though.
00:27:35.760 Now, the only reason I – I would be for civil unions, right, between a man and a man and a woman and a woman, because the term marriage, I don't really care about, if I'm being honest.
00:27:45.020 It's more about, for me, the benefits of having a spouse and creating that union.
00:27:49.760 I think in 1996, when the government chose to define marriage, that's when now they have to define it equally.
00:27:58.020 And if the government would have stayed out of marriage, I wouldn't be saying, oh, I should be allowed to get married.
00:28:02.720 If there were no incentives by the government for marriage, I would say, you know what?
00:28:06.280 Marriage, that is a Christian institution.
00:28:08.940 It's not something I need to be a part of.
00:28:10.660 I don't need to take that away from Christians.
00:28:12.320 But because the government is now involved in it, they have to apply it equally.
00:28:15.820 So we agree there.
00:28:16.760 Where we disagree is whether or not, you know, two dads and two mothers can raise a child.
00:28:23.040 But I will say that we can find some common ground there, because my definition of marriage is obviously different than yours.
00:28:29.600 But it's just not something that I'm tied to or that I genuinely care about.
00:28:33.340 I just want the benefits of it.
00:28:34.820 But you do support two men's ability to buy the eggs of one woman and rent the womb of another woman and raise a child. 0.57
00:28:41.700 Not even talking about adoption.
00:28:42.940 I do.
00:28:43.180 I do, again, think that's another conversation.
00:28:46.760 To have.
00:28:47.900 And obviously, I take issue with the stance that you just said that you assent to, that you agree to.
00:28:54.240 Do you have a mom and a dad?
00:28:56.460 I do.
00:28:57.880 Do you have a good relationship with them?
00:29:00.320 I do.
00:29:01.200 Do you think that your mom could be replaced by your dad?
00:29:05.340 Are they the same?
00:29:08.080 No, obviously not.
00:29:09.540 Do you think that your mom brought something different to the table than your dad did?
00:29:13.500 Yeah, they're two different people.
00:29:14.880 Are you thankful to have a mom?
00:29:16.120 Is that on the basis of sex?
00:29:17.500 Absolutely.
00:29:18.440 Or is it on the basis of two different individuals?
00:29:22.220 Both, probably.
00:29:23.440 Don't you think?
00:29:24.100 There's things that you go to your mom to.
00:29:26.540 Yeah.
00:29:27.120 And so you would be taking that away from a child.
00:29:30.380 You would be saying, I got a mom and I got the benefit of my mother's love.
00:29:34.480 And I get the benefit of my mother's nurturing and comfort.
00:29:37.120 But a child that I'm going to raise, you have to have purchased two women in order to even have that child. 1.00
00:29:45.880 You are robbing that child of the ability to have the mother's love that you so benefited from.
00:29:50.940 What do you think about that?
00:29:51.780 Well, it has to do with what exactly are women not capable of, that men are capable of, and vice versa. 0.97
00:29:59.700 The mother's love argument, yeah, absolutely.
00:30:02.060 I think having a feminine figure in a child's life is very important.
00:30:05.300 But I don't think that, again, the perceived or the situation that a child is brought up in warrants whether or not it should be conceived.
00:30:15.060 And I won't say born, I'll say conceived.
00:30:16.880 I think that there are situations that are out of our control.
00:30:21.020 But I don't think that the solution is saying, okay, well, don't procreate, don't reproduce, because this is the situation you're creating for a child.
00:30:28.660 I think that the human spirit is something that can overcome anything.
00:30:34.020 And I don't think that a life should not be brought into this world because of, again, a circumstance.
00:30:42.680 I think that we have done a lot of studies on kids that are born out of poverty.
00:30:46.940 But I would never tell a woman who is poor not to create a child. 0.50
00:30:52.960 I wouldn't do it because I understand the gift of life.
00:30:56.380 So, again, you're bringing up these circumstances that a child may or may not be affected from.
00:31:02.940 We don't know for sure because this is an individual child who is responsible for their own decision-making, their own thinking.
00:31:08.700 And you're saying, well, you shouldn't bring this child into the world because this is what they're going to go through.
00:31:14.300 And to me, I'm saying the gift of life is far more important than looking at the situation the child's going to be born into.
00:31:21.260 It's not only what they're going to go through.
00:31:24.260 I do think it's wrong to deprive a child of a mother and a father.
00:31:27.820 And it's not because I think that you wouldn't be a great dad.
00:31:30.340 I'm sure that you would love your child and be an awesome dad.
00:31:33.180 It's not about that.
00:31:34.240 It's that you can't be a mother and that I could never be a father.
00:31:37.160 And, you know, as someone with three kids, I see the differences between my husband and I, not just because we have different personalities and we're different individuals, but because of what we bring to the table, because of what our bodies are capable of doing.
00:31:48.980 My husband is capable of doing things with our kids that I'm simply not able to do.
00:31:53.380 And it's not we're not interchangeable and we're not replaceable.
00:31:57.420 And I think science tells us something about not just how we're created, but also what we need as individuals, not just when it comes to a mother and a father, but also where we come from, where we get our traits from.
00:32:11.760 That is why there is a book called Primal Wound.
00:32:14.260 It's actually about adoption, but I certainly think it applies here, that when that separation happens from your genetics, when that separation happens from the woman who carried you or the woman who conceived you, who basically sold half of your DNA through egg donation, then there's a wound that occurs there.
00:32:34.000 There's also this study that I saw from Indiana University and Purdue University.
00:32:38.800 See, this is 2018, and the results were this.
00:32:41.680 When a baby is taken from its mother for even a brief period early in life, this is a traumatic event that significantly alters the future adult function of the brain, according to a new animal model study.
00:32:53.080 These changes in the brain are similar to disturbances in brain structure and function that are found in people at risk for neuropsychiatric disorders such as schizophrenia.
00:33:00.580 So again, we're saying, sorry, baby, we're going to place this risk, it's not guaranteed, but we're going to place this risk on you because we just want a child.
00:33:11.260 Again, I think that children's rights to a mother and a father and to natural conception matter more.
00:33:19.700 I think that they matter more than our wants.
00:33:22.100 It's not saying that their lives aren't valuable.
00:33:24.120 In the same way that someone who is conceived via rape, their life is valuable.
00:33:28.600 They're just as worthy and as valuable as you or I are.
00:33:32.400 We can celebrate their life while still critiquing how they were conceived, right?
00:33:39.620 Okay, but you're trying to conflate children coming from rape.
00:33:44.420 There's no conflation.
00:33:45.620 You know, I know that you're smarter than that, Clarkson.
00:33:48.440 You know that you know exactly what I'm saying.
00:33:51.120 No, it's a principle that you can conceive or you can critique conception while still celebrating someone's life.
00:33:59.320 You can critique it, absolutely.
00:34:01.160 But you're not just critiquing it.
00:34:02.940 You're saying that this child should not be conceived.
00:34:06.520 Just like I think that a rape shouldn't happen, but I can celebrate if a life is produced from that rape.
00:34:14.600 I can also say, wow, I celebrate this life of this person who was conceived via exonation and surrogacy, but I critique and am against how this person was conceived.
00:34:25.400 That, of course, is possible.
00:34:26.580 Yeah, but you're saying that it's not possible?
00:34:27.900 Yeah, but it's – no, I'm not saying it's not possible because I myself –
00:34:31.340 You just don't think that we should critique surrogacy and IVF, which is okay.
00:34:33.440 That's not true.
00:34:35.060 No, no, no.
00:34:35.700 That's not true.
00:34:36.200 I've critiqued it.
00:34:37.020 I'm not trying – I wasn't trying to say that.
00:34:38.820 I'm just saying we don't agree in what is wrong with it.
00:34:42.940 You're right.
00:34:43.380 You have critiqued it.
00:34:44.980 I'm just saying.
00:34:45.740 I have.
00:34:46.260 You don't think that that is worthy of the same criticism that I'm giving it.
00:34:50.440 But go ahead.
00:34:51.840 I just don't – I think the fundamental difference between our two stances is that it's not that we necessarily disagree on some of the ethical problems with surrogacy.
00:34:59.460 It's that I don't think those ethical problems right now warrant a ban on surrogacy because I value the gift of life of that child over any – those circumstances that you mentioned.
00:35:11.320 It's not that I don't feel for the child that wants to know who their biological parents are.
00:35:16.400 It's not that I don't understand the stance that you're taking.
00:35:20.080 It's that I think the gift of life is something that far outweighs what we spoke about today.
00:35:27.760 And I am totally for having conversations of some of the things that can change in the surrogacy industry.
00:35:35.440 I'm all for that.
00:35:36.820 And before I even enter this process, if I do, that's something that I'm going to have to sit with and really look at and that I'll talk about on my platforms.
00:35:44.880 But I think the difference here is that you're taking issue with some of the same things that I take issue with, and you're saying, well, this warrants a ban.
00:35:52.820 And I'm saying, well, this warrants further discussion.
00:35:55.880 And I think that that's really just the difference between our two stances here.
00:36:00.040 Child – children are a gift.
00:36:03.760 They're not a right.
00:36:05.100 You don't pay for a gift.
00:36:06.520 I think you know that.
00:36:08.300 And when it comes to surrogacy, we're renting wombs. 0.99
00:36:11.440 We're buying eggs.
00:36:13.200 That's not a gift.
00:36:14.200 That's saying I have a right to this and whatever –
00:36:16.760 The life itself is a gift.
00:36:18.120 Yeah, the life is a gift, but you're buying eggs.
00:36:19.680 To that life.
00:36:21.000 Not to me.
00:36:21.760 I'm not talking about a gift to me.
00:36:22.760 I'm talking about a gift to that child.
00:36:24.480 That me being alive is a gift for me.
00:36:27.360 That child being alive is a gift to that child.
00:36:30.240 Well, by that logic, then we can't critique any kind of conception.
00:36:35.700 It's not about not critiquing, though.
00:36:37.160 That's the thing.
00:36:38.160 But that's basically your logic.
00:36:40.240 If it's just, okay, life is a gift no matter what, okay, well, there's a lot of people
00:36:45.340 who are conceived in a lot of sketchy ways that I think we should be able to critique.
00:36:48.640 I never said no matter what.
00:36:50.480 That's my position.
00:36:51.740 Well, that's what you're saying, though.
00:36:52.720 And we agree.
00:36:53.360 No, it's not.
00:36:54.060 That's more important than any of the potential risks that you are placing, psychological
00:36:59.560 risks that you're placing on a child by separating them from the surrogate. 0.73
00:37:02.660 That's what you've said.
00:37:03.400 I'm saying that those psychological risks, yes, that life, that when we do the cost to
00:37:07.820 benefit ratio, those psychological risks and the gift of life, the child's gift, not
00:37:12.520 my gift, the child's gift outweighs that.
00:37:15.640 Now, I'm not saying it can't be critiqued.
00:37:17.780 You're saying that I'm saying, oh, well, we can't critique anything.
00:37:19.700 That is not what I'm saying at all.
00:37:21.220 All I'm saying is that in the case of surrogacy, when we talk about the risks and we talk about
00:37:26.420 all of these different ethical discussions right now, my current stance with what we've
00:37:31.620 talked about today is that that child being gifted to live outweighs the risks that, you
00:37:39.360 know, are associated with its conception.
00:37:41.980 I'm not saying it can't be critiqued and I'm not saying that other forms of conception
00:37:45.680 can't be critiqued.
00:37:46.740 I would be insane to say that because then we go back to the rape example and I'd be like,
00:37:49.580 oh, OK, well, rape is fine. 0.77
00:37:51.140 That's not what I'm saying.
00:37:52.640 But I just I think we're getting a little bit misconstrued on my point here.
00:37:56.640 It's it's a simple cost to benefit ratio.
00:37:59.180 And I think that not for me, but for the child, it is a gift.
00:38:05.220 OK, gotcha.
00:38:06.300 And we will have to just settle on disagreeing there.
00:38:09.300 I think that we've both probably made our point.
00:38:19.580 The last thing that I want to that I want to talk to you about that you mentioned in
00:38:28.940 your tweet that you think basically kind of I don't know if you said Christian conservative,
00:38:33.260 so I'm not trying to put words in your mouth in the same way that I wasn't trying to say
00:38:36.480 that you said that we can't critique anything because I I understand that's not your position
00:38:41.240 that we can't critique anything.
00:38:42.640 Right.
00:38:42.720 Um, that Christian conservatism maybe is ruining the Republican Party. 0.99
00:38:49.000 Is that what you said?
00:38:49.740 Or would can you clarify that?
00:38:51.700 Uh, religious theocratic conservatives.
00:38:54.140 OK, so an example of that would be.
00:38:57.580 Um, I would say this was in the midst.
00:38:59.620 So right before this tweet went out, so I have to give a little bit of backstory as to
00:39:02.520 what that was on the timeline, because right before this went out, there was, you know,
00:39:06.740 a lot of conservatives basically spending the whole weekend talking about, you know, how
00:39:11.940 a woman dresses and X, Y, Z. 0.98
00:39:14.060 Is it, you know, appropriate and all of that because based off of their faith, which is
00:39:18.980 fine.
00:39:19.820 Um, but the reason I said that is because there is a faction of the Republican Party to me
00:39:26.500 that does not respect the free marketplace of ideas.
00:39:29.940 If a good idea isn't adopted by the public, then the person who is explaining that good
00:39:34.680 idea has a messaging problem.
00:39:35.900 You don't get to use the power of government to now force that idea onto people or, you
00:39:40.500 know, otherwise it would be an unpopular idea and nobody would adopt it.
00:39:44.420 It's, it's your job to go back to the drawing board and say, okay, this is why people are
00:39:47.860 not adopting my ideas.
00:39:49.220 So when I say religious theocratic conservatives are ruining our party, it's the people who 1.00
00:39:53.920 want to use the power of government to force ideas onto people rather than win by sharing
00:39:58.700 those ideas in the free marketplace of ideas, if that makes sense.
00:40:02.760 So it really just comes down to whether or not you believe in using the power of government
00:40:08.120 to force unpopular ideas amongst the public when you have failed at messaging them correctly.
00:40:13.720 Okay.
00:40:14.440 Well, such as.
00:40:15.920 Um, let's say gay marriage, right?
00:40:21.180 There is a faction of the Republican party that is against it.
00:40:24.340 And that's fine if you are against it, but rather than arguing in the marketplace of ideas
00:40:29.980 and saying, okay, well, you know, let's explain why gay marriage is bad for this country. 0.99
00:40:34.900 A lot of times what you'll see on social media is people saying, well, this is what God says
00:40:40.000 and this is why it's wrong.
00:40:42.520 Now it would be different if you come at the argument from a logical and reasonable perspective,
00:40:47.620 but if your entire basis of your argument is, well, God said so, then it ends up turning
00:40:53.980 people off from the original argument that you're proposing.
00:40:56.640 So I'm saying the people who are using God as the basis of their argument without logic
00:41:01.460 and reason, not saying you can't use God as the basis of your argument.
00:41:04.800 I'm not anti-religion, but the people who don't include logic and reason, I don't think
00:41:08.760 you're one of them because you are very logical and reasonable.
00:41:11.300 I think that they are what is ruining our party because their ideas are not explained fully.
00:41:16.540 And then it turns people off and we're increasingly becoming, you know, anti-religious in this country.
00:41:21.640 So I don't think that there is a future for conservatism unless we figure out how to propose
00:41:26.320 our ideas without using God as the sole reason for them.
00:41:30.220 Do you see a lot of that?
00:41:31.880 I really don't see a lot of Republicans just saying, well, the Bible says so.
00:41:36.040 And so this is law.
00:41:38.580 I do.
00:41:39.380 And maybe I see more of it just because I'm kind of like in a conundrum being, you know,
00:41:44.380 gay. 0.93
00:41:44.660 I get a lot of it all the time because people are like, oh, you're not conservative.
00:41:48.200 You have no place in our party X, Y, Z.
00:41:51.200 So maybe I get more of the far right, but I'm not saying that it's a majority.
00:41:56.080 I think that both sides, I think they're the left, their religion is identity.
00:42:01.100 It's wokeism.
00:42:01.900 And the right, their religion is Christianity. 0.94
00:42:04.940 Both can be abused.
00:42:06.380 I just don't think, you know, anybody who is going into an argument so ideologically bound
00:42:13.240 and not looking for compromise is good for a movement at all, whether that's the left
00:42:18.780 or the right.
00:42:19.960 Here's the thing that I always go back to.
00:42:22.160 I think I used to be of the position that it doesn't really matter what someone thinks
00:42:25.840 religiously as long as we can agree on basic principles like free speech and things like
00:42:30.580 that.
00:42:30.820 And I do still believe that, OK, I'm going to link arms with some people that I may not
00:42:35.380 agree with on everything because we do agree on some things.
00:42:38.160 So, for example, I wouldn't call myself a feminist, but there are feminists out there who believe 1.00
00:42:42.840 in women's rights and don't believe that men should be in women's spaces and on women's 0.78
00:42:46.700 sports teams, and I might link arms with them because we're fighting the same battle.
00:42:51.360 Or there may be someone who disagrees with me on the subject of social justice, but they're
00:42:55.940 also pro-life.
00:42:56.680 So maybe I'll link arms with them on that.
00:42:58.660 But I do think when it comes to why we believe what we believe as conservatives, that God plays
00:43:04.660 a key role in that and that it actually has to.
00:43:07.160 No, absolutely.
00:43:07.700 Because and the founders believed that.
00:43:09.440 I mean, ultimately, what it came back to in the Declaration of Independence, the reason
00:43:13.160 why we have inalienable rights, the reason why the establishment of this government was
00:43:17.340 so radical, the reason why we ended up leading the charge against things like slavery and so
00:43:23.380 many infringements upon human rights was because of this belief that we were made by God in
00:43:28.320 His image and that these rights that we have were actually given to us by Him.
00:43:34.380 So without that foundation, without the belief that we were given our rights by a creator,
00:43:39.800 then of course the government, being the highest power that there is, has the right to give
00:43:44.420 and take away our rights.
00:43:45.920 So I don't think it's wrong.
00:43:47.440 I don't think it's erroneous that conservatives do hearken back to creation, the creator, God
00:43:55.580 to say, well, here's the person who created all things.
00:43:58.720 Here's the person who gave us rights.
00:44:00.360 Here's the person who has given us the groundwork of right and wrong.
00:44:04.520 That's different than saying, oh, I think that we should establish all Old Testament law in
00:44:10.020 America today, which I'm sure there are people out there like that.
00:44:13.060 I just don't think that there are very many.
00:44:14.520 What I just don't want to happen, because I see a lot of people on the kind of the secular
00:44:18.760 right doing this, is saying that we can never appeal to God, or we can never use God in our
00:44:24.280 arguments, or God doesn't give us the basis of morality.
00:44:27.780 I've never heard someone explain where else the basis of morality is, or give me a logical
00:44:34.300 conclusion for where rights come from, or like, what is the foundation of conservatism if it's
00:44:39.420 not God?
00:44:40.220 I don't know.
00:44:41.680 And so that would be my argument, is that that kind of is the foundation of conservatism.
00:44:45.700 Right, and I don't disagree.
00:44:46.640 I don't disagree with you.
00:44:48.140 I think that religion should be a foundation in, honestly, anybody's life.
00:44:51.860 I grew up Christian, and it has instilled a lot of values into me that I'm very grateful
00:44:55.860 for.
00:44:56.160 My problem is that when you're building a foundation, you don't stop there.
00:45:01.480 And I think a lot of times, and on both sides, but we're specifically talking about the right,
00:45:07.340 that foundation is there, but then nothing else is added to it.
00:45:10.840 And I think that God, if we're going to talk in the presence or talk with God, I think that
00:45:17.180 he has his law for a reason, and that reason can be justified with logic and reason.
00:45:23.620 So it is your job as somebody who is representing the Christian right, which you do very well,
00:45:29.940 to showcase that logic and reason, and not just fall back on that foundation and say,
00:45:35.320 well, this is what the book says, and this is why we have to believe in it.
00:45:38.640 So it's not that I think that Christianity doesn't have a place in society or on the right.
00:45:43.060 I think that without religion, a democratic society will crumble. 0.89
00:45:47.200 If I'm being honest, I don't believe in merging those two powers because they're very powerful
00:45:50.380 institutions, but I'm not against religion.
00:45:53.020 I just think that when you have that foundation, you have to build on it in order to convey your
00:45:57.380 message to people who wouldn't otherwise buy it.
00:46:00.400 And that's why I said it's what's ruining our party, because a lot of people are not
00:46:04.840 conveying that message well.
00:46:06.920 And I agree with a lot of the stances that you take, which is why I'm a conservative.
00:46:10.920 But I see, as somebody who is not particularly religious, these messages being pushed out,
00:46:17.140 and I'm not buying them.
00:46:18.720 I'm not seeing the logic and reason behind it.
00:46:21.940 So the other side sure as hell isn't, you know?
00:46:24.340 Yeah, I mean, there's got to be people on our side, though, that reminds us of the
00:46:28.840 foundation, because you're right, you do build upon a foundation, but you can't take away
00:46:33.160 the foundation and then still expect to build something.
00:46:35.820 Absolutely.
00:46:36.360 Like, my view is that actually, like, I wouldn't go so far as to say as any one kind of person
00:46:41.480 is ruining our party.
00:46:43.480 I think that we all do kind of, when it comes to politics, when it comes to culture wars,
00:46:47.360 we do kind of all have our different roles to play.
00:46:50.020 Like, my role is that I'm going to stake us over here on the right.
00:46:53.820 There's going to be a lot of people to my left, but I am going to be someone who tries
00:46:59.340 to remind us of where that foundation is.
00:47:01.860 And that's why conservatism is difficult, by the way.
00:47:04.340 Progressivism, everyone has their own mallet, their own, you know, like, wrecking ball.
00:47:10.100 They're just trying to destroy.
00:47:11.320 That's really easy to do.
00:47:12.340 You can do that without agreement.
00:47:14.320 But on the conservative side, we're actually trying to build something.
00:47:17.180 That's a lot more difficult.
00:47:18.460 You've got your own tools.
00:47:19.560 I've got different tools.
00:47:20.620 And we actually have to agree on what the foundation is.
00:47:23.820 What I would disagree with, I think, in your tweet, is that religion has no place in law.
00:47:29.720 Well, that just can't be true because law is—
00:47:31.940 I mean, I didn't say religion has no place in law.
00:47:34.300 Okay, go ahead.
00:47:35.640 Yeah.
00:47:36.080 No, I said that religious theocrats are what destroy our party. 1.00
00:47:40.200 I didn't say it has no place in law.
00:47:41.740 Okay.
00:47:41.920 There's a very big difference there.
00:47:43.100 Yeah, I would agree that there's a very big difference there.
00:47:45.380 I would say, okay, for someone who would say that then, for someone who would say that religion has no place in law, some people erroneously use, you know, separation of church and state.
00:47:56.860 But I would just say that all law flows from morality, and all morality flows from what you believe about who we are, why we're here, and where we come from.
00:48:07.600 It's actually impossible to separate religion of some kind from law.
00:48:12.020 And so I think what conservatives have to decide on is, like, okay, where does that morality come from?
00:48:17.600 Like, who gave us these rights?
00:48:19.080 Why do we even have laws?
00:48:20.500 Why are some things right and some things wrong?
00:48:22.400 Why are some things illegal or illegal?
00:48:25.060 I actually think the conversation we had today is, like, a really good example of that to people who are disagreeing on where morality comes from and what it is and what it looks like, which is okay.
00:48:37.260 I think it's important for us to have those discussions and debates.
00:48:39.720 But you can go ahead.
00:48:41.860 No, I mean, I don't necessarily disagree with you on that.
00:48:45.020 I think that, again, when we bring up the foundation example, yeah, Christianity is the foundation of conservatism.
00:48:51.620 And I think I welcome that.
00:48:53.440 I respect it.
00:48:54.500 But, again, I think that when it comes to government, we have to not use that as a crutch to come to the table and create policy.
00:49:03.940 I think that democratic politics requires compromise.
00:49:06.220 And a lot of times on the right and the left, when you're so bound to ideology, you don't come to the table looking for compromise.
00:49:13.940 And that's the issue that I really see with it is that our conversation today, again, like you said, is a prime example of that.
00:49:20.860 But I think that when I come to the table, I'm like, yeah, there are problems with surrogacy.
00:49:25.880 Let's look at them.
00:49:26.920 Let's try to compromise and find a solution for it, despite it personally affecting me, whether or not I have kids, et cetera, et cetera.
00:49:33.020 But whereas, and this may not be you, I'm not going to put words in your mouth, somebody who is very anti-surrogacy doesn't come to the table looking for that compromise and looking for solutions.
00:49:41.040 And I think it's the same conversation with religious fundamentalists as well as, you know, woke activists.
00:49:47.260 Yeah, some things just deserve to be banned because their risk and their harm is so great.
00:49:53.300 And just the violating principles of someone's rights, of course, that's where I'm coming from.
00:49:59.960 And in order for there to be compromise, there has to be two different sides.
00:50:03.780 Yeah, there can be people in the middle, but there's nothing to compromise on if there aren't some people who want to ban it
00:50:08.980 and then some people who want to make it totally legal.
00:50:12.260 No, I agree.
00:50:13.620 Yeah, there has to be two different sides.
00:50:15.000 But I personally, as an individual, don't put myself on either side because I would much rather stand in the middle where the solutions are created
00:50:23.400 than stand on the side where we're screaming at each other.
00:50:25.900 Yeah.
00:50:26.420 I know it's your position that social issues are killing the Republican Party.
00:50:30.040 You've said that.
00:50:30.880 You've said that before.
00:50:31.920 But these social issues, that's what makes or breaks the country, really.
00:50:36.280 These social issues really matter.
00:50:37.480 I mean, surrogacy matters, abortion matters, children matter, marriage matters.
00:50:42.880 I'm sure that you agree with that.
00:50:44.360 And these culture war things have to happen.
00:50:46.580 And if we're just going to be progressives on them, I'm not saying that you're advocating for that.
00:50:51.260 And the Republican Party dies because of that, then the Republican Party dies because of that.
00:50:55.400 Then it doesn't it's not it's not worth staying alive.
00:50:58.560 We've seen what's happened to Canada and to a lot of European countries when they don't really have a conservative party.
00:51:04.180 The conservative issues, I mean, the culture issues are really like why we even have another party except for the Democratic Party.
00:51:11.520 So I just disagree with you there.
00:51:13.400 Well, it's not that it's not that we're against each other on these cultural issues.
00:51:18.380 I think we would probably agree on 80 percent of what we're talking about.
00:51:22.520 I think the problem here is that when we're talking when I'm talking about culture issues, if I'm in a room full of people explaining my opinion and nobody agrees with it, my solution to that is for me to take accountability, go back to the drawing board and figuring out why my messaging was off.
00:51:37.180 I think that the problem here is that we see a lot of people who will obviously portray their ideas that are not popular within society and then they'll say, OK, well, now we need to use the power of government to force this onto people because they're not buying it.
00:51:50.180 I don't agree with that.
00:51:51.520 I don't I don't agree with bailing out otherwise bad ideas in the marketplace.
00:51:55.700 I think that we have to if they're good ideas and people aren't buying them, we have to figure out how we can convey that in a way that people will support it using their free will.
00:52:05.580 And I think that's that's just the really big difference here.
00:52:09.180 Yeah, like a burger fell or burger fell was forced upon a country that was actually not for.
00:52:14.500 I agree.
00:52:15.080 Yeah, I know you do.
00:52:16.160 I know that you've that you've made that clear, but that is one example, you know, through fiat.
00:52:21.180 That was something that was forced on a country that at the time didn't want it.
00:52:25.800 OK, thank you so much, Clarkson.
00:52:27.420 I really do appreciate you taking the time articulating your position.
00:52:30.440 I do think that these debates are really important and I hope that people get a lot out of it.
00:52:34.340 So thank you so much.
00:52:36.080 Thank you so much for having me.