Is theocratic Christianity ruining the Republican Party and is surrogacy really as bad as Clarkson Lawson says it is? We are debating this today with a conservative political commentator who is also gay and notably less conservative than I would say on many issues than I am.
00:05:37.720But the thing is, is Canada doesn't ban altruistic surrogacy.
00:05:40.980They ban surrogacy in the stance because they don't want capital involved in the service.
00:05:45.940So first off, the only reason Canada, it's not because they think surrogacy is bad.
00:05:50.020It's because they believe that capital essentially corrupts the practice.
00:05:53.720And that is an anti-capitalist stance.
00:05:55.620Just because capital is involved in an exchange of goods and services doesn't automatically make it corrupt.
00:06:00.600Second of all, these countries that have surrogacy banned were the same countries that were lining up their citizens to force them to get a shot.
00:07:10.680Like, I think that we would probably agree that the capital, the profits that are involved in the manufacturing of some pharmaceutical product, that it's the capital.
00:07:19.840It's the money that actually kind of corrupts the process.
00:07:22.420We understand that pay for play when it comes to politics.
00:07:28.160Yeah, but the whole premise is we can regulate these industries to alleviate some of the potential corruption.
00:07:35.540I don't think that money is the sole reason for something to be corrupt.
00:07:38.460Just like I don't think guns are the reason for people to shoot.
00:07:41.600So I think that surrogacy has a lot of gray areas that we could regulate.
00:07:46.700But if we're going to go through the path of, okay, this needs to be banned, then we're not even coming to the table looking to solve for the potential corruption that could happen with it.
00:07:54.960Because if you have a problem with the entire premise of surrogacy, then there's really no point in even having the conversation of, you know, okay, well, how can we alleviate some of this potential corruption?
00:08:05.760Because you're not coming to the table with compromise.
00:08:07.440You're coming to the table with, I don't believe this.
00:08:13.540So I think that, yes, there are a lot of things that we could fix with surrogacy.
00:08:17.340We could make sure that potential surrogates are more informed in the risks associated with it, making sure that, you know, they're legally protected.
00:08:26.680But I come to the table in politics looking for compromise.
00:08:30.060And I think that both sides of this issue need to go into it in order to actually find solutions doing that.
00:08:47.340Okay, let me explain my position on surrogacy, and then I will give you the opportunity to respond.
00:08:53.460Because one thing that you said was that when you are paying for the surrogacy process, you are paying for a service.
00:09:00.320You're not paying for human bodies, but you are paying for DNA.
00:09:03.900When it comes to two men, for example, you mentioned in this tweet that you would like to become a father.
00:09:08.060I don't know if you meant through surrogacy or through adoption.
00:09:10.460That's a whole different conversation.
00:09:12.000But say it's through surrogacy, you and your partner would have to find an egg donor, and you would be paying for her eggs.
00:09:19.200You would open a catalog, and you would probably pick the egg donor that you think looks best or has the best characteristics that you would want to pass down to your child.
00:09:28.520And so you are purchasing the DNA, purchasing the eggs from one woman who has to go through a hormonal process, medical process, in order to retrieve her eggs.
00:09:57.620And at this point, you are a relative stranger.
00:09:59.880And so the two bonds with the women that he has already created, his biological bond to his mother and also the physiological bond that we have all created with the women who have carried us, you are ripping that child away from both simply because you want a child.
00:10:15.880I think that is the degradation of child's rights.
00:10:18.800We're not even thinking about, well, what is the bond that's created?
00:10:23.140Is it important to have that connection to the biological mother?
00:10:40.440And if we care about children's rights, and I think that we should, I absolutely think it's in the interest of the government to intervene.
00:10:47.840Well, this is operating under the assumption that that child doesn't have the will to live.
00:10:54.160This child wouldn't be created without surrogacy.
00:11:06.240That's the thing, Allie, is that you're saying that this perceived circumstance of the child says that this is the value of this child's life.
00:11:13.580And since we're going to put them in this position, they don't get to live.
00:11:16.620You shouldn't have a kid because this is the perceived situation that this child's going to have.
00:11:23.680Because there are plenty of kids from surrogacy who come out and are very grateful for the process, have great lives, are very happy.
00:11:30.220But you're disregarding them and saying that, oh, well, because of surrogacy, which we agree, if I go through the process of surrogacy, I want to make sure that my child, because with puppies, we keep them with the biological mother for three months.
00:11:42.680It's weird to me that you just rip that baby from surrogacy.
00:11:46.320And that's one of those gray areas that I'm like, okay, we need to look into this.
00:11:49.740But to sit here and say that a child is going to be away from their biological mother and father, therefore they should not be born, is very weird to me.
00:11:58.920That we don't weigh the cost-to-benefit ratio and say, yes, even if this child's going to be affected by that, they should be able to live.
00:12:07.740We should still understand the value of life and the gift that it brings to say that this circumstance doesn't warrant not allowing them to be created.
00:12:15.720So we are okay with purposely creating a child.
00:12:19.940Here's the difference between this and adoption.
00:12:22.200Adoption, the life has already been created.
00:12:25.880Adoption is the next best option for parents who cannot, for whatever reason, take care of the child.
00:12:31.380Maybe they didn't mean to conceive the child.
00:12:32.880Whatever the situation is, these parents feel like they cannot take care of the child.
00:12:36.560And so adoption can redeem a broken situation.
00:12:40.560But surrogacy actually purposely creates that broken situation because you're saying, okay, I know this child is going to be raised without a mother.
00:12:46.900I know we are going to have to break the bond that that child has created.
00:13:08.300But anyway, so, but in your case, in the case that we're talking about here where it's two men, you are purposely creating that child, purposely creating that child to take them through a process that you know is going to break a natural bond on purpose.
00:13:26.560And you're saying, even if we know that that child has a very high likelihood of being somehow negatively impacted by that, that's okay because, well, I just want to be a dad.
00:14:18.060You're breaking the bond from the biological mother and the surrogate, period.
00:14:21.500Unless you say, oh, no, I want this biological mother and the surrogate to be a part of this child's life, creating some kind of strange polycule situation, which I also don't think is healthy.
00:14:32.200Yes, you are breaking the bond from the moment of conception.
00:14:35.180You are breaking the bond between this child and his biological mother.
00:14:48.240I think that, but, okay, I understand your stance because you're putting, you're assuming that that child is going to look at the situation and that child's, what you would describe as a broken home and saying, okay, well, you're being selfish because you want a kid and you're not even thinking about the child.
00:15:03.600The case is, is that I'm looking at the cost to benefit ratio, and I'm not going to assume that just because my child may not like the fact that they were born out of surrogacy or may be negatively impacted, which we don't even have enough studies to prove that that's true.
00:15:21.260There are some people who are negatively impacted, but to correlate that with surrogacy and say all children are just bound to have this broken situation, to me, and I'm sure to people who were born out of surrogacy would find that offensive, but that situation doesn't outweigh the benefit of life.
00:15:39.480And I think it's, it's insane to me that in a country that is, first of all, women are not having children.
00:15:48.480So we really aren't really in a position to be policing who should and shouldn't have children based off of their perceived circumstance.
00:15:53.640But I think it's crazy that I'm having to sit here and defend the value of life on the conservative side because this is the same, that is what's happening because you're life just because we're anti-surrogacy.
00:16:12.060It's that you're putting your perceived risks, which aren't even proven because surrogacy hasn't been studied enough, and you're outweighing life with those risks.
00:16:20.180You're saying that these risks make this life not worth being created.
00:16:23.640It's not even just about risks because I do think that that would be a little anecdotal, although I do think those anecdotes and those testimonies are absolutely worth listening to and do have weight.
00:16:34.440I've spoken to on this couch several people who have been born via sperm donation, egg donation, via surrogacy, and here's what they would say.
00:16:45.160And I'm not saying and they would not say that they are speaking for all people in their situation.
00:17:56.260So whether or not someone has come to terms with how they were conceived or come to terms that whether or not someone has that testimony,
00:18:03.720we are taking away a right in principle of someone to be raised by, in certain situations, a mom and a dad, but also to know who they are and from where they come.
00:18:17.640We are taking that away from children.
00:18:19.680And the fact that we don't know the consequences of it is not a good justification for saying, well, we should just go on with it anyway.
00:18:26.740Well, no, actually, it is because in a free country, you have to prove why something should be illegal before you make it illegal.
00:18:32.180We need to take away someone's rights before we prove that there is a consequence to it.
00:18:36.900I mean, you could say, well, let's take away the right to free speech.
00:18:40.380Let's take away these rights, and then we'll see if there's consequences to it, and then we can work backwards.
00:18:45.520No, whenever we go from what is natural, I'm talking biologically natural, what is natural to what is possible,
00:18:54.460we always have to ask questions, what is being lost here?
00:20:02.900And if I do go down this path, I'm going to understand that.
00:20:06.220And I think 100% transparency, even if that was,
00:20:09.200if it was illegal to lie to your child about where they come from, I would be okay with that.
00:20:12.480That's a gray area that I think we can reform because every child does deserve to know where they come from.
00:20:16.600However, to say that that trauma is the result of a bond separated at birth rather than the result of poor parenting and not being transparent with your child,
00:21:07.160But there are so many studies like this.
00:21:09.240This is maternal separation stresses the baby, research finds.
00:21:12.580Researchers measured heart rate variability in two-day-old sleeping babies for one hour each during skin-to-skin contact with mother
00:21:19.180and alone in a cot next to the mother's bed.
00:21:21.420Neonatal autotonic activity was 176% higher and quiet sleep 86% lower during maternal separation compared to skin-to-skin contact.
00:21:31.320Now, let's extrapolate the principle that we see here.
00:21:34.360We are causing purposeful stress to a child of a surrogate by taking them away from the heartbeat, the smell, the sound, and the feel of the woman that they have bonded with for nine months.
00:22:06.520Because parents decided that they want it.
00:22:09.020You are forcing a child to carry a burden of stress.
00:22:11.540No, we're talking about a scientific response to the mother.
00:22:17.500And the question is, is that we need to figure out when that is okay.
00:22:21.760If we studied it and it says, okay, this traumatic response lasts six months, I would be okay with saying any surrogacy contracts have to be, we have to fit that in.
00:23:02.940Because we, what are you, you're talking like, I didn't just hear the study you read, because clearly there's a bond between the child and the mother.
00:23:27.600If you consent to it in the same way that a coal miner consents to risking their life every day, if somebody enters into a surrogacy contract, and a lot of mothers find tremendous purpose in this, first of all.
00:23:36.920So I don't want to negate the surrogate mothers, but you can't sit here and say that, oh, well, that bond automatically equals surrogacy being wrong.
00:23:49.920I think we need to study and figure out the best possible outcome for the child, and then relay that information to the mother.
00:23:57.560And if a mother with the right to bodily autonomy chooses to enter into one of those contracts, they should be informed on it.
00:24:03.900I don't think it should be banned, but I don't disagree with you.
00:24:06.440I think that there are ethical concerns with how the industry currently is working, but I don't think that those ethical concerns right now warrant a complete and entire ban on the practice.
00:24:19.600Why do you think that it is ethical or should be legal to cause that kind of bond separation and known suffering and stress to a child in their earliest hours?
00:24:32.000Why is that not sufficient to say, you know, as many other countries have, to take a step back and say, you know what?
00:24:38.660Children do have rights, and we don't get to treat them worse than we treat puppies or kittens.
00:24:43.420And we need to start respecting their rights, their right when it comes to how they're conceived, how they're gestated, how they're bought and purchased, not even to mention the whole IVF process, which is inherent in surrogacy that causes embryos to be indefinitely placed on ice.
00:25:00.100Like, the pro-life position is that these are human beings, and human beings should have human rights.
00:25:05.800And I believe that children have a right to their mother.
00:25:12.440And I don't see the justification for taking that away just because adults have decided that they want a child.
00:25:19.760I don't think that – I think that you're assuming that you're taking something away from a child that would not even have the opportunity to live without it.
00:25:30.200There are parents, straight parents, who can never conceive.
00:25:34.260And you're saying that – I just – I don't understand how this perceived circumstance, which is clearly, as we both agree, not studied enough.
00:25:41.760I don't understand how we can say that this child is going to – what you're saying is all – you're assuming that this child is going to be in this situation, we're breaking this bond, therefore, this child shouldn't be lived.
00:25:54.960Rather than let's alleviate that situation, let's figure out a way to scientifically make sure that this can be avoided, which is the position I'm taking.
00:26:04.020I'm saying we need to look into this and figure out how we can avoid this.
00:26:06.820Because you're saying this is the situation, this child shouldn't be born.
00:26:14.240It's not that I don't think that the child should be born.
00:26:17.120It's that I don't believe that the child should be conceived with this intention.
00:26:21.200So I'm not talking about taking a life.
00:26:23.080I'm talking about not creating a life with the purpose.
00:26:24.740Yeah, but a child can't – they can't be conceived.
00:26:26.100With the purpose – yeah, with the purpose of robbing them of that so important physiological bond that we create with mothers.
00:26:36.820When it comes to the redefinition of families, I'm sure that we also disagree on that.
00:26:51.940Marriage is between – has long been before the establishment of the United States, an institution between a man and a woman, not only because of the creation order that we read in the Bible, but also because it is the only natural child-creating institution that exists.
00:27:14.720And you are, I'm guessing, of the position that it is okay for two men or two women to raise a child via sperm egg donation, whatever, in the same way that it would be okay for a man and a woman to do that.
00:27:32.700Now, we do agree, though, with the marriage, though.
00:27:35.760Now, the only reason I – I would be for civil unions, right, between a man and a man and a woman and a woman, because the term marriage, I don't really care about, if I'm being honest.
00:27:45.020It's more about, for me, the benefits of having a spouse and creating that union.
00:27:49.760I think in 1996, when the government chose to define marriage, that's when now they have to define it equally.
00:27:58.020And if the government would have stayed out of marriage, I wouldn't be saying, oh, I should be allowed to get married.
00:28:02.720If there were no incentives by the government for marriage, I would say, you know what?
00:28:06.280Marriage, that is a Christian institution.
00:28:08.940It's not something I need to be a part of.
00:28:10.660I don't need to take that away from Christians.
00:28:12.320But because the government is now involved in it, they have to apply it equally.
00:29:51.780Well, it has to do with what exactly are women not capable of, that men are capable of, and vice versa.
00:29:59.700The mother's love argument, yeah, absolutely.
00:30:02.060I think having a feminine figure in a child's life is very important.
00:30:05.300But I don't think that, again, the perceived or the situation that a child is brought up in warrants whether or not it should be conceived.
00:30:15.060And I won't say born, I'll say conceived.
00:30:16.880I think that there are situations that are out of our control.
00:30:21.020But I don't think that the solution is saying, okay, well, don't procreate, don't reproduce, because this is the situation you're creating for a child.
00:30:28.660I think that the human spirit is something that can overcome anything.
00:30:34.020And I don't think that a life should not be brought into this world because of, again, a circumstance.
00:30:42.680I think that we have done a lot of studies on kids that are born out of poverty.
00:30:46.940But I would never tell a woman who is poor not to create a child.
00:30:52.960I wouldn't do it because I understand the gift of life.
00:30:56.380So, again, you're bringing up these circumstances that a child may or may not be affected from.
00:31:02.940We don't know for sure because this is an individual child who is responsible for their own decision-making, their own thinking.
00:31:08.700And you're saying, well, you shouldn't bring this child into the world because this is what they're going to go through.
00:31:14.300And to me, I'm saying the gift of life is far more important than looking at the situation the child's going to be born into.
00:31:21.260It's not only what they're going to go through.
00:31:24.260I do think it's wrong to deprive a child of a mother and a father.
00:31:27.820And it's not because I think that you wouldn't be a great dad.
00:31:30.340I'm sure that you would love your child and be an awesome dad.
00:31:34.240It's that you can't be a mother and that I could never be a father.
00:31:37.160And, you know, as someone with three kids, I see the differences between my husband and I, not just because we have different personalities and we're different individuals, but because of what we bring to the table, because of what our bodies are capable of doing.
00:31:48.980My husband is capable of doing things with our kids that I'm simply not able to do.
00:31:53.380And it's not we're not interchangeable and we're not replaceable.
00:31:57.420And I think science tells us something about not just how we're created, but also what we need as individuals, not just when it comes to a mother and a father, but also where we come from, where we get our traits from.
00:32:11.760That is why there is a book called Primal Wound.
00:32:14.260It's actually about adoption, but I certainly think it applies here, that when that separation happens from your genetics, when that separation happens from the woman who carried you or the woman who conceived you, who basically sold half of your DNA through egg donation, then there's a wound that occurs there.
00:32:34.000There's also this study that I saw from Indiana University and Purdue University.
00:32:38.800See, this is 2018, and the results were this.
00:32:41.680When a baby is taken from its mother for even a brief period early in life, this is a traumatic event that significantly alters the future adult function of the brain, according to a new animal model study.
00:32:53.080These changes in the brain are similar to disturbances in brain structure and function that are found in people at risk for neuropsychiatric disorders such as schizophrenia.
00:33:00.580So again, we're saying, sorry, baby, we're going to place this risk, it's not guaranteed, but we're going to place this risk on you because we just want a child.
00:33:11.260Again, I think that children's rights to a mother and a father and to natural conception matter more.
00:33:19.700I think that they matter more than our wants.
00:33:22.100It's not saying that their lives aren't valuable.
00:33:24.120In the same way that someone who is conceived via rape, their life is valuable.
00:33:28.600They're just as worthy and as valuable as you or I are.
00:33:32.400We can celebrate their life while still critiquing how they were conceived, right?
00:33:39.620Okay, but you're trying to conflate children coming from rape.
00:34:02.940You're saying that this child should not be conceived.
00:34:06.520Just like I think that a rape shouldn't happen, but I can celebrate if a life is produced from that rape.
00:34:14.600I can also say, wow, I celebrate this life of this person who was conceived via exonation and surrogacy, but I critique and am against how this person was conceived.
00:34:51.840I just don't – I think the fundamental difference between our two stances is that it's not that we necessarily disagree on some of the ethical problems with surrogacy.
00:34:59.460It's that I don't think those ethical problems right now warrant a ban on surrogacy because I value the gift of life of that child over any – those circumstances that you mentioned.
00:35:11.320It's not that I don't feel for the child that wants to know who their biological parents are.
00:35:16.400It's not that I don't understand the stance that you're taking.
00:35:20.080It's that I think the gift of life is something that far outweighs what we spoke about today.
00:35:27.760And I am totally for having conversations of some of the things that can change in the surrogacy industry.
00:35:36.820And before I even enter this process, if I do, that's something that I'm going to have to sit with and really look at and that I'll talk about on my platforms.
00:35:44.880But I think the difference here is that you're taking issue with some of the same things that I take issue with, and you're saying, well, this warrants a ban.
00:35:52.820And I'm saying, well, this warrants further discussion.
00:35:55.880And I think that that's really just the difference between our two stances here.
00:47:43.100Yeah, I would agree that there's a very big difference there.
00:47:45.380I would say, okay, for someone who would say that then, for someone who would say that religion has no place in law, some people erroneously use, you know, separation of church and state.
00:47:56.860But I would just say that all law flows from morality, and all morality flows from what you believe about who we are, why we're here, and where we come from.
00:48:07.600It's actually impossible to separate religion of some kind from law.
00:48:12.020And so I think what conservatives have to decide on is, like, okay, where does that morality come from?
00:48:20.500Why are some things right and some things wrong?
00:48:22.400Why are some things illegal or illegal?
00:48:25.060I actually think the conversation we had today is, like, a really good example of that to people who are disagreeing on where morality comes from and what it is and what it looks like, which is okay.
00:48:37.260I think it's important for us to have those discussions and debates.
00:49:26.920Let's try to compromise and find a solution for it, despite it personally affecting me, whether or not I have kids, et cetera, et cetera.
00:49:33.020But whereas, and this may not be you, I'm not going to put words in your mouth, somebody who is very anti-surrogacy doesn't come to the table looking for that compromise and looking for solutions.
00:49:41.040And I think it's the same conversation with religious fundamentalists as well as, you know, woke activists.
00:49:47.260Yeah, some things just deserve to be banned because their risk and their harm is so great.
00:49:53.300And just the violating principles of someone's rights, of course, that's where I'm coming from.
00:49:59.960And in order for there to be compromise, there has to be two different sides.
00:50:03.780Yeah, there can be people in the middle, but there's nothing to compromise on if there aren't some people who want to ban it
00:50:08.980and then some people who want to make it totally legal.
00:50:13.620Yeah, there has to be two different sides.
00:50:15.000But I personally, as an individual, don't put myself on either side because I would much rather stand in the middle where the solutions are created
00:50:23.400than stand on the side where we're screaming at each other.
00:51:13.400Well, it's not that it's not that we're against each other on these cultural issues.
00:51:18.380I think we would probably agree on 80 percent of what we're talking about.
00:51:22.520I think the problem here is that when we're talking when I'm talking about culture issues, if I'm in a room full of people explaining my opinion and nobody agrees with it, my solution to that is for me to take accountability, go back to the drawing board and figuring out why my messaging was off.
00:51:37.180I think that the problem here is that we see a lot of people who will obviously portray their ideas that are not popular within society and then they'll say, OK, well, now we need to use the power of government to force this onto people because they're not buying it.
00:51:51.520I don't I don't agree with bailing out otherwise bad ideas in the marketplace.
00:51:55.700I think that we have to if they're good ideas and people aren't buying them, we have to figure out how we can convey that in a way that people will support it using their free will.
00:52:05.580And I think that's that's just the really big difference here.
00:52:09.180Yeah, like a burger fell or burger fell was forced upon a country that was actually not for.