Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 936 ｜ 'We Recommend Termination'： Defying Doctors & Choosing Life ｜ Guests： Daniel & Kelly Crawford

00:00:00.620 Babies in the womb who are given life-limiting diagnoses like trisomy 18 are often aborted with doctors and activists insisting that this is the easiest and most compassionate choice.

00:00:11.920 But the truly loving and healing and redemptive option is to allow these babies to be born whole and to live.

00:00:20.980 But parents in this situation, they need support. They need information. They need community. They need help.

00:00:28.020 And that is why Able Speaks exists. This is a Christian nonprofit organization that helps families who are pregnant with a child that has been given a life-limiting diagnosis.

00:00:42.300 You are going to be so encouraged and touched by the testimony of the founders of Able Speaks, the Crawfords, who are here today to talk about their baby boy, Able, and to talk about this organization and everything that it offers for families.

00:00:59.480 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to goodranchers.com. Use code Allie at checkout. That's goodranchers.com. Code Allie.

00:01:06.720 Okay, guys. Thanks so much for joining Relatable. Could you tell us a little bit about who y'all are and what you do?

00:01:23.140 Yeah.

00:01:23.940 Do you want to start?

00:01:24.540 Sure. We're Daniel and Kelly Crawford.

00:01:26.440 We are the founders of an organization called Able Speaks that exists to support families who have chosen to carry a child with a life-limiting diagnosis just with the hope and the vision that each family in that scenario, every parent can choose to cherish that child's life and experience hope and joy even in the midst of sorrow and potential grief and loss.

00:01:49.700 And so that mission and that organization stems from our kind of on-ramp into parenthood, our journey with our firstborn that we can certainly share more about.

00:02:00.380 Yeah.

00:02:00.920 But that's certainly what led us to get connected with you and be here today.

00:02:04.820 Yes. So Able Speaks. Tell me about the name of the organization and why it's called that.

00:02:10.760 Sure.

00:02:11.500 Yeah. So it comes from Hebrews 11, 4, and it says,

00:02:15.280 Through faith, even though he is dead, Able still speaks.

00:02:17.920 And so Able is our first son, like Daniel mentioned, and had a life-limiting diagnosis.

00:02:25.440 And so we didn't even know that was necessarily in the scriptures until we picked his name.

00:02:32.400 And then actually at his celebration of life, the pastor read that verse.

00:02:36.840 And it just really obviously stuck out to us that even though his life looked different than we had hoped or imagined,

00:02:44.220 that the Lord was like using it in profound ways in our journey, but also the ripple effects of his life with the people around us and the people that we shared his story with.

00:02:56.000 And so like had read Hebrews, obviously, and even like had the memory of like, oh, yeah, Hebrews 11.

00:03:01.460 That's where they list like a lot of the examples of faith from the Old Testament, but had not read through Hebrews 11 at the time where we were like thinking through names.

00:03:10.780 We were like, yeah, I always like for people, they're like, oh, we chose this name, which means this when you break it down.

00:03:17.020 And we're always just like, here's just the names on our list.

00:03:20.620 We liked them.

00:03:21.340 So we didn't overthink it.

00:03:22.880 But in the long run, yes, as we were getting to a point in our journey where we had thought about formalizing the kind of support that we now provide,

00:03:32.740 that popped out as an opportunity and something that really embodied the essence of what we hope to do.

00:03:38.780 And let's go back to finding out that you were pregnant with Able.

00:03:43.000 What year is this?

00:03:44.260 It was the summer of 2015.

00:03:45.640 Okay, summer of 2015 and normal pregnancy, I assume.

00:03:51.700 And then at what point did you get Able's diagnosis?

00:03:55.360 Yeah, so we are people of little patients.

00:03:58.520 And so we wanted to find out gender as soon as possible.

00:04:01.960 Especially with your first.

00:04:02.940 Yeah.

00:04:03.200 It's just fun to know.

00:04:03.800 It is.

00:04:04.260 It's fun.

00:04:04.900 And so we decided to do the blood work at 10 weeks to find out gender.

00:04:10.140 And we're, like, vaguely aware, you know, that they were testing for other abnormalities.

00:04:15.740 Yeah.

00:04:15.800 But it really was, like, not on our radar.

00:04:18.960 And you kind of just don't, you don't even know.

00:04:21.020 They're like, oh, we're testing for genetic stuff.

00:04:22.840 Yeah, yeah.

00:04:22.860 And you're like, okay, good.

00:04:23.380 I was like, yeah, okay, okay.

00:04:24.360 And then we waited two weeks to get the results back.

00:04:28.280 And so our OB called.

00:04:30.460 I was at lunch with some friends, actually.

00:04:32.900 And she just said, hey, we got the results back.

00:04:35.840 And you're having a little boy.

00:04:38.040 And he also has risk markers for something called trisomy 18.

00:04:44.640 And I said, okay, well, what does that mean?

00:04:48.060 And she said, if the diagnosis holds true, then he's considered incompatible with life.

00:04:53.600 And I was like, okay.

00:04:56.280 You know, and I was asking all these questions, like, how accurate is the test?

00:05:00.200 And which she wasn't really familiar with how the test worked and how accurate it was.

00:05:04.820 And then just didn't know a lot about the diagnosis.

00:05:08.640 And so she just said, you'll have to go to a maternal fetal medicine specialist to get more information.

00:05:15.980 And so we did that about a week later and saw a specialist who said, hey, based on what I see on ultrasound, I'm 99% sure your son has trisomy 18.

00:05:28.820 And so you guys can just terminate the pregnancy and try again for a better one.

00:05:34.000 Wow.

00:05:34.240 And how far along did you say that you were at this point?

00:05:36.800 I was about 12 weeks.

00:05:38.080 About 12 weeks.

00:05:39.400 Wow.

00:05:39.840 And so you saw your baby on the ultrasound.

00:05:41.840 She said, yep, those indicators look correct.

00:05:44.200 And what did she tell you about trisomy 18?

00:05:48.120 You know, really not much.

00:05:49.760 I mean, it was just like, this is what the diagnosis is based on what we see.

00:05:53.960 And he's not going to survive.

00:05:56.840 And so there's really no reason to, like, continue the pregnancy.

00:06:01.840 And what is it?

00:06:02.720 What is trisomy 18?

00:06:03.820 What does it affect?

00:06:05.060 Yep.

00:06:05.240 Yeah, it's, you have a third copy of the 18th chromosome.

00:06:09.440 So 26 from mom, 26 from dad.

00:06:12.380 Sometimes a third copy will go in.

00:06:14.640 Trisomy 21 we know is Down syndrome, which is, you know, associated with a disability that can be life limiting, but oftentimes is not.

00:06:25.140 Whereas trisomy 18 and trisomy 13 typically are, they're life limiting in the sense that you're probably not looking at a normal lifespan.

00:06:35.120 The insinuation at the time was it's basically impossible.

00:06:38.960 These babies don't survive outside of the womb, and oftentimes they don't make it full term.

00:06:43.220 And so there's just not even a blip of hope as it's presented.

00:06:48.160 And so we've obviously, and there's plenty more we could share about this, is that there is certainly a range of time outside of the womb that parents can still experience with their children who have diagnoses like trisomy 18 or trisomy 13.

00:07:01.700 But yeah, at that time in that room, it was, you know, sucks the air out of the room and you're in a place where it's really the only thing that's presented is, here's what this is, here's what that means, and here's what you do next.

00:07:19.780 Right.

00:07:20.700 And so naturally.

00:07:22.600 So she didn't ask, she didn't say, what do you want to do or how do you feel about this, but we recommend, which is a euphemism, terminating your pregnancy.

00:07:31.140 And this was in Texas, and at this point, this was before the fall of Roe, so this was legal to do.

00:07:36.940 Yeah.

00:07:37.380 What was your reaction when you heard that?

00:07:39.180 I mean, I can't imagine the whiplash.

00:07:41.200 Yeah.

00:07:42.400 You know, he actually just said, I'm going to step out of the room.

00:07:46.060 And the nurse actually came in. 1.00

00:07:47.600 She was an older lady, and sometimes I'm like, was she even real, or was she like an angel?

00:07:53.020 But she just said, you don't have to make that decision today.

00:07:57.780 And I was like, wow, okay.

00:08:00.520 Which I was shocked that someone working for that provider with the direction that he was giving us, you know, would be so open about that.

00:08:09.720 But, you know, we just, so we talked with her mostly, the nurse, and just said, hey, that's not something that we're open to considering.

00:08:16.340 And, you know, she just said, yeah, I think that's wise, just to wait.

00:08:22.680 And so the appointment was pretty abrupt after that.

00:08:27.440 And we, you know, quickly went home, tried to, like, learn more about the diagnosis and really what we could expect.

00:08:37.840 And I think at that point, we were trying just to get our minds around the fact that he really did have a diagnosis that was going to shorten his life.

00:08:49.440 You know, I think it takes, like, time to process that information.

00:08:55.760 Right.

00:08:56.000 And Daniel, I think I might have cut you off earlier, but what were you thinking through all of this?

00:09:02.260 I mean, obviously, it's emotional.

00:09:04.300 I imagine maybe there was even, like, a period of denial.

00:09:07.840 I mean, I think that's how I would feel.

00:09:09.840 Like, maybe they're wrong.

00:09:11.460 Or maybe this is the child who does defy the odds.

00:09:14.460 What were you thinking?

00:09:15.200 Yeah, I think a few things in that moment, and even a quick caveat before I answer that, is, like, it is the prevailing and predominant worldview of most medical providers to give that counsel and that advice.

00:09:32.980 And I think that it can be taken and run with to the extent of, like, oh, they're all, like, these, you know, evil, rabidly pro-abortion, which I'm sure some are.

00:09:43.840 Oftentimes, though, they're just like, hey, here's what's best for everybody.

00:09:47.400 Like, I think genuinely in this specialist was actually a male, but in his heart of hearts, it's like, I bet you just think you're actually, like, helping us and sparing us from a hard experience.

00:09:58.680 And, hey, what's the point if this is the inevitable outcome?

00:10:01.620 And so I think you think you're doing us a favor, which I just like to point out.

00:10:07.760 And that goes down to, like, education and equipping, which is why before we felt the need to create a nonprofit supporting families with journeys like ours, there was a burden and a component of, you know, I feel like we need to share our story and our perspective, which Kelly in particular has done, like, at Grand Rounds at hospitals and stuff,

00:10:27.820 just to, like, create a category and a shelf in the minds of providers of, like, oh, here's a parent that got that news, moved forward, had the time, cherished that journey, and here's how she's doing after the fact.

00:10:41.760 Here's the sentiment she can still share, which we haven't gotten to that point in sharing here yet.

00:10:46.280 But I think most people just can't fathom that, or it seems impossible.

00:10:51.240 And so, you know, that was one thing in that room.

00:10:55.040 Another thing was just being thankful in hindsight that we had been at a church, a church that did their best, you know, to balance the grace and the truth, but not be afraid to lean into difficult, controversial topics, such as the life conversation, abortion, and try to equip its members around that conversation.

00:11:16.900 And so we went into that season kind of having formulated some of our theology and some of our views, which is just I can't say enough, not waiting until you're in the moment to, like, filter through what do I think and believe, heart versus head.

00:11:34.800 And so that was helpful in hindsight, and I think a part of the Lord's provision, which was abundant at every phase of the journey, was going into it.

00:11:43.460 We had some kind of, you know, we knew that wasn't something that we were going to consider.

00:11:49.980 And yet, I understand how a parent, not only because of what I said earlier, of it's really not like, do you want to do this or do you want to do that?

00:11:57.820 Here's the pros and cons.

00:11:58.860 It's just like, here's what you do.

00:12:02.060 And to where most people that don't have that equipping or don't have that in their world just got flipped upside down.

00:12:06.960 Okay, like you're the doctor.

00:12:10.820 Okay.

00:12:11.220 So with all of that said, yeah, I think that as we think about grief, oftentimes we think about that moment of finality, and there's now a resolution.

00:12:28.920 There is, whether it's death or whatever it is we're talking about, that's when the grief starts.

00:12:34.440 I think in these contexts, it's really in receiving and letting the diagnosis sink in.

00:12:41.660 We didn't know how the Lord was going to write Abel's story.

00:12:45.800 We didn't know what the rest of that pregnancy or what time outside of the womb would look like.

00:12:50.680 But we started grieving in that, not because we embraced like, oh, it's this inevitable thing,

00:12:57.340 and so let's just start preparing now to say goodbye.

00:12:59.720 There's some component of that that's really tender and hard to put words on.

00:13:05.060 But there was a sense of, the first thing I started thinking is like, however it plays out,

00:13:11.620 this is going to look different than I thought when Kelly shared with me for the first time,

00:13:18.780 hey, we're pregnant. 0.93

00:13:19.840 We're going to be parents.

00:13:20.720 Because it's like, moms and dads, there's a lot of differences.

00:13:24.280 For dads, it's like, I'm thinking about throwing baseballs with five-year-olds.

00:13:31.800 I'm not necessarily thinking about the pregnancy, that season of newborn where the maternal instincts

00:13:39.980 versus the paternal stuff.

00:13:41.940 Yeah.

00:13:42.520 So I think that's the stuff that I remember.

00:13:44.300 I remember it's like, in a vacuum, I might cry like once a decade, like it's a problem.

00:13:51.660 I need to work on it and be more in touch and familiar with my emotions and feel things.

00:13:56.740 But I remember that's when it just started catching up to me.

00:14:00.220 And those were the first things that were inducing those emotions and those tears

00:14:03.780 was the sense of like, I'm not going to get to do that, probably.

00:14:07.940 Yeah.

00:14:08.280 And I don't know what this is going to look like, but it's probably not going to look like that.

00:14:11.760 And that's pretty crushing.

00:14:14.300 I think the point that you made about why theology matters and why knowing what you believe

00:14:32.480 matters, I think a lot of times we think of these issues, issues like abortion as kind

00:14:39.400 of secondary or tertiary divisive issues that we don't really want to think about because

00:14:44.140 we don't think that they will ever affect us.

00:14:47.760 Or we think of theological debates as things that Christians really shouldn't be focused

00:14:52.020 on.

00:14:52.360 And maybe to some extent that's true.

00:14:54.220 But when it comes down to it, what you believe in those moments acutely matters.

00:14:59.380 It really matters.

00:15:01.040 Especially when you have someone who is in a position of authority, who is in a position

00:15:06.460 to care for you and tell you what's best for you.

00:15:08.600 To present this as really the only way to go.

00:15:12.340 And as you said, someone who doesn't have that foundation of knowing, wait, this baby,

00:15:17.200 no matter what, is made in the image of God is thinking, wow, it's really that easy?

00:15:20.880 I can just be done with this next week and then start over and have a great pregnancy and 0.98

00:15:25.000 I'll never think about it again.

00:15:26.340 Of course, that's not reality.

00:15:27.660 But in those highly emotional moments, you could see why that option is appealing to

00:15:34.520 some people.

00:15:36.460 So tell me, after you left the room, you knew that that wasn't going to be the path that

00:15:41.500 you took.

00:15:41.900 But what did it look like after that?

00:15:44.620 How did you find the support that you needed?

00:15:46.340 Yeah, you know, like Daniel said, I think the theology piece, but also surrounding what

00:15:56.240 an abortion actually is, I think our church really equipped us on that.

00:16:00.800 And so I think as we, it wasn't an option for both of those reasons, right?

00:16:08.200 So I think it's important to know what God's word says and then to also have an understanding

00:16:13.820 of what an abortion is.

00:16:16.580 But yeah, after we left the hospital, Daniel was on staff at the church that we went to

00:16:23.860 at the time.

00:16:24.480 And so it was really the first time in my life that I experienced like God's people

00:16:35.220 really like being the church for me personally.

00:16:38.260 And so a lot of that just looked like people that we had known for a long time or people

00:16:44.960 that we barely knew at all, caring for us, loving us.

00:16:49.940 Some of that was just like, hey, I dropped coffee off on your front porch.

00:16:54.020 And it's like, good, I'm getting out of bed for that, you know?

00:16:58.140 And just knowing that so many people were like praying for us, I think it was really the

00:17:03.060 first time I experienced in such a personal, tangible way, the power of like prayer and

00:17:10.140 how that was like impacting my heart and mind on a daily basis.

00:17:15.060 And so a lot of the services that we provide through Able Speaks are because those were things

00:17:21.320 that people did for us.

00:17:22.400 And they were things that we like didn't even know we needed, you know?

00:17:25.520 And I think my favorite thing about the way that people cared for us during that season

00:17:31.660 was that people really just got to use the gifts that God's given them to bless us, you know?

00:17:40.400 And so to see, which a lot of people ask us, like, how do we like support families that

00:17:46.300 are in this situation?

00:17:47.080 And I'm like, hey, what are the gifts and skills that God's given you?

00:17:51.160 Just use those, you know?

00:17:52.500 And other people that are caring for them get to do the same.

00:17:58.240 And all together, that, you know, forms really solid care and support.

00:18:03.880 And so, and none of it was like super profound, you know?

00:18:08.040 Some of it was just like texting us.

00:18:10.520 Some of it was just giving us connections for providers if we needed them or giving us,

00:18:19.780 like I said, coffee on our front porch or just like small things that made us feel less

00:18:25.180 alone, you know?

00:18:27.260 Yeah.

00:18:27.720 We, at one point, invited folks, obviously, to pray for us and for Able throughout that

00:18:34.220 journey, which really was just the walking through, walking into and through the unknown.

00:18:39.900 Because, again, we're like late first trimester at that point.

00:18:43.960 It's like, that's a long time.

00:18:45.260 If this goes full term, we're talking like several months of sitting in this, we don't

00:18:51.240 know what lies ahead moment, which is incredibly vulnerable.

00:18:56.260 And we, in this day and age, have such a high ability to control so many different facets

00:19:02.600 of our life, where to have one glaring thing that is like, you really, you can prepare yourself

00:19:09.160 mentally, spiritually, emotionally.

00:19:10.460 You can have good community, you can have all these things, but there's a finite point where

00:19:15.040 it's like, you can't really do much more other than wait.

00:19:18.280 And we don't like that, right?

00:19:20.760 And so in that stretch, you know, I think that as we talk about suffering, which at this point

00:19:31.460 in an age, you know, as Kelly said, it was probably the first really profound stretch

00:19:36.960 of hardship, of a circumstance that had entered our lives.

00:19:43.460 And nobody, like, opts for that and pursues that and seeks that.

00:19:48.000 And yet, we got to see not only through God's people, through God's Word, as we talked about,

00:19:54.940 through His Spirit, but just the way that He draws near to the brokenhearted.

00:19:59.180 And just the things that, maybe stories that you're familiar with, you know, if you've been

00:20:05.020 around church or the scriptures that just took on color and, like, new light, and, like,

00:20:11.140 the notion of, like, collecting manna one day at a time.

00:20:14.340 Yeah.

00:20:14.980 And it's like, that's all we can do, is take it day by day and trust that He's going to

00:20:19.320 provide tomorrow.

00:20:20.300 And we don't get a week's worth, we don't get a month's worth, we don't know what is coming

00:20:24.360 down the stretch, but there's this daily sense of abiding and trusting on our end, and then

00:20:29.780 providing and sustaining on His end.

00:20:33.260 And so that whole stretch, you know, as we invited people to pray, we picked just a time.

00:20:39.600 Originally, His due date was January 29th.

00:20:42.200 We had Him on January 22nd.

00:20:43.700 So we're coming up on His eighth birthday, like, next week.

00:20:46.200 Oh, my goodness.

00:20:47.340 This was 2015.

00:20:48.700 And so that was another just really special, profound thing, is folks set their alarm for

00:20:53.220 His original due date.

00:20:54.340 They just symbolized this, you know, here's what we're going for, is that's, you know,

00:21:00.780 carry this baby full term, and He's going to be born, and we're going to get time with

00:21:05.920 Him, whatever that time looks like.

00:21:07.780 And if the Lord wills, you know, shock us, do something miraculous, you know, you can do

00:21:12.540 whatever you want to.

00:21:13.280 And yet, we also know that you love this child more than we even do, and you created

00:21:20.280 Him with purpose and intention.

00:21:23.240 So prepare our hearts for whatever lies ahead, but also we feel freedom to ask you for what

00:21:28.600 we want to ask you for, you know?

00:21:30.340 And so there was all that.

00:21:31.800 But when our alarms would go off every day at 129, it was this, we're thinking about it

00:21:36.140 24-7.

00:21:37.000 So it wasn't like, oh, yeah, Abel, let's pray real quick.

00:21:40.120 It was a daily reminder for us that it got to the point where hundreds, potentially thousands

00:21:46.500 of alarms were going off every day at that time.

00:21:51.620 And so for us, it was like, that was a reminder every day of like, hey, for the next minute,

00:21:56.240 two minutes, five minutes, I don't know.

00:21:57.960 But in this moment, there are hundreds of prayers right now.

00:22:03.440 Right.

00:22:03.580 And so many people would text us like at that time every day and be like, hey, this is what

00:22:07.840 I've been praying for you guys for, specifically for today, which was like such a gift.

00:22:12.000 I think, too, people challenged us a lot in that season.

00:22:16.720 So even like Daniel talking about like truly asking God for what we wanted, you know?

00:22:23.400 Friends asked like, hey, do you feel freedom to ask for what you want?

00:22:27.000 And are you actually doing it, you know, because in those moments, of course, what we wanted

00:22:32.100 was for him to be healed.

00:22:34.800 But I think even asking God for what you really want is vulnerable, you know, because it's

00:22:40.820 like we also know that that might not be our story.

00:22:43.020 And so I think some of the greatest gifts that people gave us were really leaning in

00:22:49.100 and saying, hey, this is what God's word says.

00:22:53.040 You know, do you feel freedom to do that or ask that?

00:22:56.340 And I think that really blessed our journey in just like keeping us focused, you know,

00:23:04.120 on like, hey, we can.

00:23:06.600 And I think allowed us to look back on that time with like no regrets.

00:23:09.940 Yeah.

00:23:10.600 It was like the biggest gift they gave us.

00:23:12.900 In a way that emphasized like just the authenticity and intimacy that can come from praying whatever

00:23:19.320 you got, whatever's on your heart, not some of the stuff because people well-intended can

00:23:24.560 do the like, hey, if you pray hard enough or if you pray this way or you have enough

00:23:29.420 faith.

00:23:30.320 If you believe that it's going to happen, it will.

00:23:32.020 Like the ball's in your court.

00:23:32.900 And then you'll basically like coax that blessing and that healing out of him, which is.

00:23:40.360 There's so much to say about that, of how painful.

00:23:44.960 I mean, I can't imagine wholeheartedly embracing and believing that and then not having that

00:23:50.340 prayer answered.

00:23:51.140 And then the only thing to point to and look back on is I must have did something wrong

00:23:54.600 because they said if I did it this way.

00:23:57.620 So anyways, without going down that rabbit trail, it was, you know, a profound time of,

00:24:03.460 you know, that literal like Psalm 23 idea of walking through the valley of the shadow of

00:24:08.520 death and trusting the good shepherd and having other people, you know, whose voices and whose

00:24:15.620 presence were there with you to shepherd and point you back and just take it a step at a

00:24:21.300 time, a day at a time to where we'll say often like that period of intimacy and connection

00:24:27.160 with the Lord was unprecedented up to that point.

00:24:31.340 And then really even looking back, you know, our story and journey with Abel has now changed

00:24:36.940 everything about our lives, including what we do vocationally.

00:24:40.600 But even like replicating what those months felt like when we were navigating the unknown

00:24:45.620 is hard to do and hard to describe.

00:24:48.620 How did you find a provider that you were comfortable with given the situation and what

00:25:07.320 path you decided to take?

00:25:09.600 Yeah.

00:25:09.920 So we called our OB and said we didn't love that experience.

00:25:15.420 With the specialist.

00:25:16.080 With the specialist.

00:25:17.080 Do you have another recommendation?

00:25:18.620 And she said, yeah, hey, I think this person might be a little bit better fit for you

00:25:23.620 guys.

00:25:24.320 So we went to see him probably two weeks after that.

00:25:29.800 And it was a totally different experience.

00:25:32.860 And he played a huge role in our story.

00:25:35.840 Just he was really the first person that said, hey, your son's alive today.

00:25:42.400 And that matters.

00:25:43.560 And it's worth celebrating.

00:25:44.700 And so for us, we really took that and we were like, hey, we are going to celebrate every

00:25:50.520 day that we have with him, even if it's just in the womb.

00:25:53.540 And so he really valued Abel's life and valued what our desires for what his life could look

00:26:03.720 like and valued that we were his parents.

00:26:07.860 And so we get to make those choices.

00:26:09.700 Helped humanize him, too.

00:26:11.540 Yeah.

00:26:11.820 Yeah.

00:26:11.980 Especially as a dad who wasn't actively pregnant.

00:26:15.820 That there's that challenge of connection and everything.

00:26:18.540 So for him to like, hey, let me see your hand.

00:26:21.160 Like, put it right there and give it a little poke.

00:26:24.060 It's fine.

00:26:24.520 It's not going to hurt him.

00:26:25.400 Yeah.

00:26:25.700 See on the screen.

00:26:26.560 And like, you interacting and it's like, wow, dang.

00:26:31.660 And so it really was this powerful picture and dichotomy of like, what sort of sway and

00:26:36.820 influence and impact people in that role can have.

00:26:40.180 And we're so grateful because they're out there.

00:26:42.160 Yeah.

00:26:42.460 The providers that take that approach to their care and to their patients, they're out there.

00:26:48.680 Yeah.

00:26:48.900 And you can find them.

00:26:50.740 We can help you find them.

00:26:52.500 And it's a game changer.

00:26:53.980 And that's one of the resources we provide through AbleSpeaks is just medical connections

00:26:58.360 just because we've seen the like spectrum.

00:27:01.020 We've had not great providers.

00:27:02.980 And then we've had some that have had a huge impact on our story and journey.

00:27:06.400 And so and that's what I get to say when we get to meet with medical professionals is

00:27:11.080 just like you like have so much power to like impact someone's journey.

00:27:16.620 Totally.

00:27:17.000 And you get to choose if that's for good or not, you know.

00:27:20.100 And so let us help you know some maybe better practices to support them in a way that they

00:27:28.540 would really feel cared for.

00:27:30.740 And tell me about the days leading up to Able's birth and then what it was like when he was

00:27:36.880 born.

00:27:37.680 Yeah.

00:27:39.200 Yeah.

00:27:39.640 I think the days leading up feel like a blur kind of, you know.

00:27:43.220 Um, he was our first, so we didn't have any other kids running around.

00:27:47.840 Um, and so again, like Daniel said, I think we just tried to take it a day at a time.

00:27:53.440 And, um, the week before, I think, which is funny, like Daniel said, we're like a week

00:27:59.820 before his birthday now.

00:28:01.420 Um, he'd be turning eight years old, which is crazy.

00:28:04.080 But, you know, I think it's just like this weird emotion of like, I want to meet my son,

00:28:09.900 but I also know that meeting him might also mean him passing.

00:28:15.900 And so that's like a really, um, it's a really strange place to be.

00:28:21.420 And so, um, but we really did, you know, a couple weeks before he was born, it was just

00:28:27.660 like, man, we're ready.

00:28:29.980 And whatever the Lord has for us, like, we're going to trust that that's going to be good.

00:28:34.400 And we can't wait to meet him.

00:28:37.340 And so that's true of all of our children, you know, like.

00:28:39.900 The excitement and anticipation of getting to know them, um, is just like one of the

00:28:46.440 greatest gifts in life.

00:28:47.740 And, and so that was true, um, of him too, even though it looked a lot different than

00:28:52.600 we had hoped.

00:28:53.720 Um, we did not feel that way the whole pregnancy, you know, the waiting is like excruciating all

00:28:58.160 the unknowns that you're, you know, facing, um, feel just, um, overwhelming.

00:29:03.540 But did you know that you would have to have a scheduled C-section?

00:29:07.560 No.

00:29:08.060 So I advocated for that.

00:29:10.380 Um, our provider didn't want to do a C-section.

00:29:14.500 She said it wasn't worth it, um, because he wasn't going to survive.

00:29:18.280 And so, um, so I just said, Hey, like, that's what I think is going to be best for him and

00:29:25.620 for our family.

00:29:26.300 He had a heart condition that we were concerned he might not survive the labor.

00:29:30.360 Okay.

00:29:30.780 And so, um, that was like one of my first, um, experiences, uh, as a mom of like, Oh,

00:29:38.160 okay.

00:29:38.320 I've actually got to like stand up for what I, you know, what I think is best.

00:29:42.720 Basically she was saying because of the difficulty that a C-section would be for you, it's not

00:29:47.740 worth doing something that would be better for him because he's not going to survive any

00:29:52.400 longterm.

00:29:53.180 Right.

00:29:53.400 That's right.

00:29:54.380 And so, um, we went back and forth on that for several months.

00:29:58.920 Um, and then she ended up agreeing to do it.

00:30:02.500 And so, um, yeah, we scheduled a C-section for 39 weeks and we weren't sure that we would

00:30:08.120 even make it to that day.

00:30:09.820 Um, but we did.

00:30:11.480 And so, um, yeah, you know, I think we went into, um, his birth, just trying to hold it

00:30:18.100 as loosely as we could.

00:30:20.300 And what we often say is that it really felt like holy ground that day.

00:30:26.760 You know, the Lord was so present and, um, it was just like palpable his presence in that

00:30:34.560 operating room.

00:30:35.360 Um, and he was born and we didn't know if we'd get minutes with him outside of the womb

00:30:41.480 or hours.

00:30:42.680 That's what we were told.

00:30:44.120 And so he was born and stabilized pretty quickly, which was like a surprise to everybody.

00:30:52.060 And then they were like, maybe he doesn't have trisomy 18.

00:30:54.780 And we were like, okay.

00:30:56.300 Um, so, you know, there's like all these things going on, um, all at once, but.

00:31:00.680 Did you get to hold him immediately?

00:31:02.020 Yeah, we immediately did skin to skin and, um, and then, yeah, we went back to just like

00:31:08.040 the post-op room and, um, Daniel and I had decided to spend like the first few hours with

00:31:12.520 him just as a family of three, um, which was like such a gift, but, um, he was doing like

00:31:18.940 remarkably well.

00:31:19.980 And so our like friends and family were in the waiting room and got to come back, um,

00:31:25.600 which also was something we weren't sure that they would get to meet him alive.

00:31:29.080 And so the fact that they did was, um, such a gift to us even now, because they get to

00:31:35.580 say, remember when Abel did this or remember when he looked like that, or he had a long

00:31:40.740 toe like your brother or like all the things, you know, that we get to talk about when we

00:31:44.520 have babies, um, is a part of like his story too.

00:31:48.400 And so, and it just humanized him, you know, where other people get to talk about him when

00:31:52.860 he was, um, actually alive.

00:31:54.180 But yeah, his birthday was such a great day.

00:31:57.560 It really was.

00:31:58.440 I mean, and that's what we tell families, um, that we get to walk with through Abel Speaks

00:32:03.300 is like, it's hard to get your mind around it right now.

00:32:06.260 And that is okay.

00:32:07.760 But I promise like meeting our children is unlike any other life experience.

00:32:12.540 And that's going to be true of your child, even if they have a life limiting diagnosis.

00:32:18.320 And so, um, but yeah, that first day, you know, um, it was lots of family and friends

00:32:25.760 coming in and getting to hold him and meet him.

00:32:28.020 And, um, it was just such a, an unexpected gift to get that time with him.

00:32:34.360 We weren't expecting that.

00:32:36.300 Right.

00:32:36.660 Yeah.

00:32:36.840 I would say also to a degree, and I hope I speak to it like tenderly, but even the families

00:32:42.360 with the hundreds of families that we've walked with at this point, you know, um, a percentage

00:32:47.380 of them, you know, will experience, uh, stillbirth and the sentiment still holds to a degree that

00:32:55.040 candidly I, cause we prayed for that often, like everybody's different and has these different

00:33:02.000 things of like, oh man, that's really a longing on our hearts.

00:33:04.400 But we, um, we're very hopeful and wanted to do whatever we could to try and meet him

00:33:11.340 alive and have time with him outside of the womb.

00:33:13.320 Um, and so not everybody approaches it the same way, but even for the families that don't

00:33:19.080 get that time with their child outside of the womb, they say the same thing, which is, man,

00:33:25.100 what a beautiful day.

00:33:27.200 And it's that, you know, bittersweet mixture of emotions.

00:33:30.620 Cause there's obviously pain and grief that comes with loss and death.

00:33:35.240 Um, but then there's this sense of, man, we've been thinking about talking about praying

00:33:40.040 about anticipating and like, there you are.

00:33:43.160 And like, we get an idea on ultrasound of like, oh, I think you might have your nose,

00:33:47.580 but it's like, there's just nothing like it.

00:33:50.320 And, um, so we'll say that to folks, you know, often that we're serving cause that's in,

00:33:56.440 of course, everybody's thinking through that.

00:33:58.300 And there is for a good chunk, most probably of the pregnancies, there's this sense of like,

00:34:05.480 oh, that just feels daunting, you know?

00:34:09.580 And I'm like having to gear up and prepare for potentially saying goodbye.

00:34:15.420 But then as Kelly said earlier, when you get closer and closer, I think that does in a way

00:34:19.880 that's just God's kindness on display.

00:34:22.240 Like it gets not replaced totally, but, um, you feel this sense of, of joy and anticipation,

00:34:30.080 anticipation in, in the positive sense of like, okay, he's about to be here.

00:34:36.760 And so nobody can take that away and you wouldn't trade it for anything.

00:34:43.040 And again, these are sentiments that over 400 families now that we've walked with, um,

00:34:49.400 that is a prevailing universal sentiment is that sense of, we wouldn't trade that day

00:34:55.880 and that experience for anything.

00:34:58.180 And, um, you know, if we were God, we would have written it differently.

00:35:02.780 And we can say that, and we have permission to say that.

00:35:05.940 And yet, even in that, we see his hand, we see his redemptive components,

00:35:13.420 and we just see the gospel infused reality of life in this present world that, that joy

00:35:21.980 and sorrow, they can go together and they can go exist.

00:35:26.320 And oftentimes greater depths of one, um, is paired with greater depths of the other.

00:35:31.700 And that's what it is to love something, right?

00:35:33.900 It is the greater depths of love and joy that you experience in association with something,

00:35:39.400 the greater depths of pain that comes with, um, losing that something.

00:35:44.060 But, um, that doesn't negate the joy.

00:35:48.920 I remember reading a quote years ago now, and I don't remember who it's by,

00:35:54.240 but something along the lines of anxiety is imagining the future without God's grace in it.

00:36:00.940 And you really only feel God's grace in the present moment.

00:36:04.380 So when we picture whatever scary day it is that we're imagining, whether we know what's

00:36:11.040 going to happen, like the birth of a child who won't survive long after birth or something

00:36:14.620 that we think is going to happen, when anxiety takes over, it's because we forget that God's

00:36:20.200 grace is going to be there.

00:36:21.620 And going back to what you said about taking the daily bread of each day, taking the manna of

00:36:27.760 each day, we're not supposed to know tomorrow.

00:36:31.040 We're not supposed to take tomorrow's bread.

00:36:33.700 We're not supposed to understand how it's going to feel when God's grace meets us in

00:36:38.380 that moment.

00:36:38.960 We're so supposed to trust that it will.

00:36:41.720 Um, and I've never heard, as you said, I haven't talked to as many parents as you guys

00:36:46.500 have, but I've never heard a family regret that experience and regret being able to meet

00:36:52.320 their child, whether the child had already passed in the womb or whether the child lived

00:36:57.200 minutes, hours after birth.

00:36:59.440 God's grace has always met them there and they've always been so grateful for that experience.

00:37:04.500 And I think that's an important piece too, because this, even like if you step outside

00:37:08.500 of sharing the same faith convictions and worldview that we share, you know, there's secular,

00:37:15.160 you know, um, Duke university did a study that basically tracked like, Hey, parents who get

00:37:22.740 a life limit diagnosis, those who terminate versus those who continue, like what are the

00:37:27.800 longer term outcomes, like psychologically, emotionally, like who fares better?

00:37:33.200 Is there a difference?

00:37:34.440 And the study found that those that carry and continue fare better in the long run.

00:37:40.040 And it's because of, you know, all of the things of like, Hey, there's, of course, we're

00:37:45.440 going to find stats that back up God's universal truths.

00:37:49.600 But I think that because there was this, Hey, we resisted the temptation to take matters into

00:37:55.900 our own hands, to do what was right in our own eyes.

00:38:00.260 Um, and we saw this through that as you're talking about regrets, I do think there's far less

00:38:07.800 regrets associated because it's like, Hey, we let this play out and we try to be as far

00:38:13.420 as informed as we could be, know our options, know the possibilities and not just walk through

00:38:18.700 it with a blindfold.

00:38:19.300 But at the same time, I think that absolutely contributes to the long-term sense of, um,

00:38:26.160 peace and absence of regrets, as opposed to, uh, we talk about this often, like

00:38:31.320 choosing to set the date that Abel was going to pass and end the pregnancy and have the

00:38:41.000 abortion.

00:38:41.940 Um, it really wouldn't have spared any of the sense of loss or suffering, or it would

00:38:48.420 have shortened the season of unknowns and all of those things.

00:38:51.880 But you essentially get all of, all of the hard stuff and all of the sad stuff and you've

00:38:58.340 just forfeited all of the joyful, redemptive stuff and that's not going to go well long

00:39:05.100 term for anybody.

00:39:05.960 And that's more than anything rather than because we've walked with folks of all different religions,

00:39:13.580 um, no religion, you know, single moms, like name the circumstance that has been transcendent. 1.00

00:39:21.880 Um, and, and, and I think that's what it's rooted in ultimately.

00:39:25.880 Yeah.

00:39:26.520 And how long did Abel live?

00:39:28.640 Yeah.

00:39:28.960 So he lived for 15 days outside of the womb.

00:39:31.580 Were you able to take him home?

00:39:33.520 Oh yeah, we were.

00:39:34.180 Um, which was like one of Daniel's like prayers was that we would get to take him home.

00:39:39.320 And I was like, oh man, I don't know if we can take home a child that is, you know,

00:39:43.880 and it felt like so overwhelming to me.

00:39:45.740 Um, but yeah, you quickly like learn all the medical things and how did you, you know,

00:39:51.860 what you need to do to take care of your child.

00:39:53.520 So we got to take him home, um, on day four and, um, got to spend the rest of his time,

00:40:01.300 um, at home, which was like such a gift.

00:40:03.980 And, um, just to get to be a family in our own home, you know, um, was something that

00:40:09.980 we never could have imagined getting to do with him and, um, having people get to come

00:40:16.340 see him and see us and things like that and just go to our favorite park around the corner

00:40:20.980 and watch a movie that we love or, you know, um, things that are just like mundane things

00:40:28.200 of life that we were never, um, we couldn't even like get our minds around the possibility

00:40:33.760 of getting to do those things with him.

00:40:35.440 And so, yeah, we, um, we didn't, um, I think again, like I said, we wouldn't, went into his

00:40:45.340 birth just super open-handed and, um, and we're hoping just for hours.

00:40:50.380 And so I feel like the Lord, um, gave us, uh, more than we could have imagined or expected.

00:40:56.660 And, um, and then, yeah, I think on, on the piece about like grace, you know, I think that

00:41:02.560 that is, um, something that God used Abel's life to totally change the way that we approach

00:41:10.600 our day to day, you know, in the best of ways, I think of just, and we really do, there's

00:41:16.540 so much freedom in just going, you know what, like we have the next 24 hours and we can trust

00:41:21.580 that God's going to give us what we need today.

00:41:23.780 And that's really what Abel's 15 days looked like was just one day at a time, we're going

00:41:30.440 to do what is before us and trust that God's going to give us the strength to do that.

00:41:35.000 Um, and then he's going to give it for the next day and the next day.

00:41:39.060 And even on the day that Abel passed away, you know, it's, it's odd, but it, it really

00:41:45.540 was like such a peaceful day for us.

00:41:48.760 Um, I mean, it's the hardest day of our lives too, but, um, but yeah, you know, I think getting

00:41:56.060 to see, getting to know that Abel's like last breath on earth with us was like getting

00:42:02.320 to meet our creator face to face.

00:42:04.880 Um, and that being your child is like, unlike, and trying to get your mind around like, what

00:42:10.720 is that like?

00:42:11.420 What is he actually experiencing?

00:42:13.640 I think, um, it was the worst day for us in a lot of ways, but the best day for him.

00:42:19.060 Um, but yeah, even on the day that he passed, you know, I, I think that again, the Lord's

00:42:24.320 presence was like, just felt so, he was so near to us.

00:42:29.180 Um, and, uh, and we just trusted like, Hey, that this is the time that God wrote for him,

00:42:36.060 you know?

00:42:36.540 And of course, like Daniel said, if we were God, he'd still be here.

00:42:40.220 And those two things can hold true, you know, at the same time, uh, which I think sometimes

00:42:44.880 people have a hard time, um, getting their minds around.

00:42:48.460 Mm-hmm, definitely.

00:42:50.780 And then how long after his birth and his death, did you realize that you were being

00:42:57.580 led to create this organization for other families?

00:43:00.580 Because a lot of families have been through similar experiences, but not every family says,

00:43:05.580 okay, there needs to be something else for families who have gone through this.

00:43:09.440 So tell me about that.

00:43:11.560 Yeah.

00:43:11.920 You know, um, we didn't have any grand plans.

00:43:14.980 So I would just say, um, about four months after Abel passed away, we had a friend of

00:43:22.100 a friend reach out and say, you know, we were pretty open with our story when, um, we were

00:43:26.380 pregnant and during his life.

00:43:27.800 And so they just said, Hey, I know someone that got a similar diagnosis.

00:43:31.640 Would you be willing to share your story with them?

00:43:34.060 Um, and just like any insight that you have on how to walk through something like this.

00:43:38.960 And so, um, we said yes.

00:43:41.360 And, and then that phone call just kind of kept coming every like three or four months,

00:43:45.560 somebody would reach out and say, Hey, would you like connect with this family?

00:43:48.480 And so we just thought it'd be like a family, uh, ministry for us, you know, just like,

00:43:53.540 Hey, this is, this is how we will continue to steward Abel's life.

00:43:56.560 Like we don't get to parent him on earth in the way that we had hoped, but this is a way

00:44:01.420 that we get to feel like we are still parenting him to some extent, you know?

00:44:05.680 Without the burden of like, we've got to do something.

00:44:08.820 Yeah.

00:44:09.420 Like we've got to preserve his legacy.

00:44:11.440 We've got like, there wasn't that sense of pressure.

00:44:14.000 However, it was just, yeah, it's hard to even explain it.

00:44:17.640 It was just a one step of faithfulness at a time.

00:44:21.040 We want to be open to responding to opportunities that we feel like clearly the Lord's bringing

00:44:26.840 to us to be faithful with.

00:44:29.300 And then over time is you're just picking up patterns.

00:44:31.720 You're like, I don't think we're forcing this thing and trying to make fetch happen here.

00:44:36.160 I think that it's just like, no, there's not only continuing opportunities and, and need,

00:44:41.940 but also like pretty clear gaps that we, you know, at the time it's like, we didn't know

00:44:50.380 what we didn't know and we were learning as we were going.

00:44:53.360 So there's some things to like pay forward.

00:44:56.200 But there's also stuff that was present that I think was easy to take for granted that we're

00:45:02.560 like, oh, that's not, that's not normal.

00:45:05.240 Like in the positive way of like, yeah, the support that we had, I think in that season,

00:45:10.940 as we were walking with other families, we began to realize like, oh, that wasn't, our

00:45:16.720 experience is not typical.

00:45:18.280 And so a lot of families, um, even as they're like trying to decide, should they terminate?

00:45:23.060 It's like, oh, the, the like understanding from a theological standpoint and just from a

00:45:27.780 general education of what an abortion is and all of those things, there was just like

00:45:31.680 no foundation there really.

00:45:33.100 And so, um, all the way to like, um, you know, how do we navigate this with like friends

00:45:39.700 and family that are trying to love and support us, but they don't know what to say.

00:45:43.700 They don't know how to say it.

00:45:44.720 They don't know what to do, you know, um, maritally, how do we like navigate, you know,

00:45:50.180 going through intense suffering and grief together, but also individually.

00:45:54.040 And so there's just so many siblings, you know, people, we didn't have other children,

00:45:57.840 but if the families had kids, it's like, how do we navigate grief with children, you

00:46:02.360 know?

00:46:03.060 Or sometimes people would start with enough of a conviction, like, Hey, we're, we're

00:46:07.660 Catholic.

00:46:08.100 Like we don't do the abortion thing.

00:46:09.720 That's a hard no.

00:46:10.500 But what does it look like to actually follow through?

00:46:14.000 It's like, you just kind of grit your teeth and you get through it.

00:46:17.100 And there's like a lack of like, Hey, here's like, here's not just theologically as far as

00:46:23.940 headwise, but just like, here's how you can navigate that season and just having that

00:46:29.900 redemptive perspective.

00:46:31.100 And a lot of the stuff we've talked about here for a while, there's can be a real deficit.

00:46:36.520 And so that's relationally, maritally, medically.

00:46:40.780 Sometimes it's like, we dread these appointments having such a hard time.

00:46:45.360 It's like, you know, you can find somebody else, like just really practical things that

00:46:50.040 we're like, wow, okay, we wouldn't have necessarily known to do this if this wasn't our story.

00:46:57.080 But to know that there is a different way, a better way, you do have choices, you do have

00:47:00.460 options.

00:47:02.180 And to be able to pass those things along and.

00:47:06.120 There's just a lot of gaps in care and support for such a niche population, you know?

00:47:11.800 And even in our own story with Abel, I mean, we had some really difficult after he was born

00:47:16.660 where the medical team just expected him to die.

00:47:21.720 And then when he didn't, they didn't really know what to do.

00:47:24.920 And it was like, and I mean, ultimately it came down to like denying care, you know, are

00:47:30.680 you sure that you want to feed him?

00:47:32.500 And it's like, well, he's hungry.

00:47:34.120 And, you know, and it's like, well, it's just futile.

00:47:38.500 So, or if we, you know, wanted to learn more about how his heart was doing, it's like, that's

00:47:43.320 just a futile thing to do.

00:47:44.500 We don't recommend it.

00:47:46.080 We won't have insurance cover that, you know, like all of those things that we were totally

00:47:51.060 unprepared for.

00:47:52.540 And so as we were walking with families, all of these things, we just saw patterns, like

00:47:58.680 Daniel said, of like, oh, that's, I think there's a real need here.

00:48:03.680 And so we decided to like formally establish Abel Speaks in January of 2018 on what would

00:48:11.940 have been Abel's second birthday.

00:48:13.100 And so we just thought it would be like 10 families a year in the Dallas-Fort Worth area.

00:48:18.780 Didn't think much beyond that.

00:48:21.660 We didn't have like a three-year plan or a 10-year plan or anything like that for the

00:48:25.680 ministry.

00:48:26.760 I was doing it, you know, part-time.

00:48:31.000 Daniel was helping me on nights and weekends.

00:48:32.720 And so we were just kind of making it work early on.

00:48:38.000 And then in like 18 months, the ministry just like exploded.

00:48:42.160 And so we were kind of looking at each other like, okay, either we need to go all in as

00:48:48.720 a family on this and trust that this is what God's calling us to, if that's what we think.

00:48:53.440 Or we need to like find somebody else to like start running it because we just don't have

00:48:57.440 the margin.

00:48:58.900 And so Daniel left his job in the fall of 2019.

00:49:04.800 And we both started working for the ministry full-time.

00:49:08.380 And yeah, since then we've served, like Daniel said, over 400 families, which is just crazy.

00:49:14.600 And in every U.S. state, eight different countries.

00:49:19.920 And yeah, before, you know, Zoom was a thing.

00:49:23.160 We were already using it, connecting with people, you know, across the world.

00:49:26.500 Real trailblazers.

00:49:27.480 Yeah, that's right.

00:49:28.940 And so-

00:49:29.940 Bring it on, COVID.

00:49:30.880 No problem.

00:49:31.580 That's right.

00:49:32.320 We were ready.

00:49:33.840 But yeah, you know, we've just tried to say yes to the next door that the Lord has opened

00:49:40.440 and tried to be as faithful as possible to steward the story that he's given us.

00:49:46.520 And it's been a huge gift to us just to get to, there's something very humbling and profound

00:49:56.240 to get to walk with people through the darkest valleys, you know, and for them to like share

00:50:02.740 that with you is a huge gift and an honor.

00:50:09.000 And so we really do view it that way.

00:50:13.580 And just the way that the Lord uses the families that we get to walk with in our life.

00:50:20.180 And I think it just keeps in the forefront of our minds all the time.

00:50:24.580 Like what we do keeps, it reminds us just, you know, of how futile life, or, you know,

00:50:30.860 how life is just so, it is like a vapor.

00:50:35.760 It's fleeting.

00:50:36.200 It's fleeting and it's just so short and that it helps keep an eternal perspective,

00:50:44.600 you know, for us and which we see as like a gift.

00:50:49.580 Yeah.

00:50:49.980 Yeah.

00:50:50.880 And you talked about just not just gaps in care, but also a lack of knowledge about these

00:50:56.720 diagnoses and what the true options are.

00:50:59.220 Some people don't even know that there is a redemptive option, that you can birth your

00:51:03.520 baby whole and see their face and love them for their last moments or days of their life.

00:51:10.240 When we read stories like we see in the media, they're presented as kind of, you know, a way

00:51:19.160 to wield the culture war.

00:51:21.860 When you hear a story like the woman, Kate Cox, who traveled from Texas.

00:51:26.820 I think she also, her baby also had trisomy, 18, and she wanted to have an abortion.

00:51:33.220 She did have an abortion. 1.00

00:51:34.820 And what you hear from the pro-choice side is that, of course, that's the most compassionate

00:51:39.140 option.

00:51:39.980 Of course, that is the best option to take.

00:51:43.000 And it just goes to show like there is a lot of work to be done.

00:51:46.440 For some people, maybe it's not a lack of knowledge.

00:51:48.660 As you said, maybe, you know, for some people, they're just not really pro-abortion and they're

00:51:52.100 for it no matter what.

00:51:52.900 But for some people, I mean, even those who consider themselves pro-life, they say, well,

00:51:58.780 but in this case, in this case, yeah, I'm pro-life, but-

00:52:02.600 It's the exception to the rule, right?

00:52:04.140 In this case, we have to allow it to happen.

00:52:06.180 I saw that a lot.

00:52:07.620 But you have seen now what it looks like for parents to choose the redemptive and life-giving

00:52:15.380 option.

00:52:16.340 And there's just a lot of work to be done, a lot of knowledge to be shared and wisdom

00:52:20.720 to be shared.

00:52:21.200 Of course, it requires heart change and all of that, but some people just don't have the

00:52:24.880 information to know that it's even possible.

00:52:27.340 I think, too, not like, I think we just don't understand suffering, you know?

00:52:34.400 And so we don't, as humans, like we want to run away from hard things always.

00:52:38.920 And I think that's just like our human instinct is to move away from it.

00:52:44.460 But I think like what we've learned is like, if we sit in it and like trust that God is

00:52:52.400 good and has a good plan and purpose for our life, I think we get to see the redemptive

00:52:59.220 aspects of the suffering that he's given us.

00:53:02.560 And if nothing else, you know, Abel's life has helped me know my creator more.

00:53:09.900 And so if nothing else, like that is a humbling gift from my son, you know, that God has used

00:53:16.560 his life to allow me to know God more.

00:53:21.560 And so in like a really personal way.

00:53:24.700 And so I think that we just, even as believers, we don't have a good worldview on suffering

00:53:32.580 and like how God uses it.

00:53:34.140 Like, I don't think God wants us to suffer, but I also think that he knows our humanity,

00:53:38.620 you know, and that that's often the best way to draw us into knowing and trusting him more.

00:53:47.500 Yeah, and he didn't exempt himself.

00:53:49.320 I mean, he didn't exempt Christ from that.

00:53:51.760 And so I do think that aversion to suffering or imposing what feels like imposing suffering

00:53:57.180 on somebody else is a huge piece of what fuels that mostly well-intended but misguided compassion

00:54:05.100 that you were talking about is because it's people and oftentimes believers that are like,

00:54:09.980 hey, well, here's what is really the kind response.

00:54:13.160 Or here's the most Christ-like, you know, here's the most compassionate way to stance

00:54:19.580 to take or way to respond.

00:54:21.220 And it does.

00:54:22.700 It doesn't take long to, in your world class at this, of just like, okay, well, just consider

00:54:28.840 like, yes, I'm not saying turn off your heart, but I'm saying turn on your mind and just here's

00:54:33.280 a few questions.

00:54:33.940 And can you see the inconsistencies of how that's maybe not actually, it might feel like

00:54:41.280 or seem like on the surface, the most compassionate response.

00:54:44.060 But if A, B, and C are true, then that's actually, that doesn't, that doesn't line up.

00:54:49.940 And so we've tried the best, you know, that we can.

00:54:53.380 And at the end of the day, we lead with our, our story.

00:54:56.700 And like I said, up top, like, you know, I think one of the best apologetics we have

00:55:01.860 as believers as a whole is just like, here's my story and what I've gleaned from it and your

00:55:06.900 testimony.

00:55:07.300 But I think as it applies to, you know, the pro-life movement or the abortion conversation,

00:55:14.380 you know, I think sharing our story and our experience with Abel and our work with Abel

00:55:20.540 Speaks, hopefully can just like people like, wow, I've never considered that or thought

00:55:25.040 about that.

00:55:25.700 And the little I did think about it led me to this conclusion.

00:55:29.000 Right.

00:55:29.240 Now that I think about that, it's like, oh, and so that's like where we hang our hat at

00:55:33.440 the end of the day.

00:55:34.220 But we also are like, man, I do think it's important to have those foundational, fundamental,

00:55:42.060 hey, think about these things now so that when the story and the headline that comes out

00:55:47.020 that pulls on your heartstrings, be like, does that does that line up, though?

00:55:51.260 And how can I balance grace?

00:55:53.580 How can I always have grace, but also balance that with truth, not at the cost of truth?

00:55:57.480 And so we did try and we put together like a quick little kind of short resource called

00:56:04.160 Four Foundational Questions About Abortion.

00:56:07.940 And it's on our website and stuff.

00:56:09.760 I think it's on our homepage right now, where if you go to ablespeaks.org, it pops up as a

00:56:13.860 free download, just because we do kind of especially recently in light of, you know,

00:56:19.920 our what's normally a very small off the radar niche kind of got pushed to the forefront of

00:56:25.460 some national news with the Cox case the other month in Texas, that it kind of the responses

00:56:33.180 we saw from people, even as we, you know, would post things, it's like, oh, man, love this.

00:56:39.860 Like, agreeing with us, but also I think it's really good that everybody has like the ability

00:56:47.100 and the right to, it's like, well, hold on.

00:56:50.840 Yeah.

00:56:51.320 Yeah.

00:56:51.660 I think the, you know, exception to the rule that our niche falls into for a lot of people,

00:56:57.920 even believers or people that are pro-life, I think trying to equip people of like, yeah,

00:57:02.660 but even in these circumstances, you know, this is what we can know to be true and surrounding

00:57:10.360 the abortion conversation.

00:57:11.920 But, and also like Daniel said, you know, we try to lead with, man, the things that we

00:57:15.760 would have given up, how we terminated Abel's life, ended his life, you know, by our own accord

00:57:21.460 is we wouldn't have known what he looked like.

00:57:23.720 We wouldn't have been able to hear his cry.

00:57:26.240 We wouldn't have been able to give him a bath, you know.

00:57:28.820 Um, our friends and family would have never gotten to meet him.

00:57:32.280 I wouldn't have been able to feed him.

00:57:33.840 There's so many things that we got to do with him because he is a human, you know, um, and

00:57:41.280 he, his, he was alive, you know, and there's things that memories and things that we got

00:57:47.120 to experience with him that those are the things that we would have given up had we chosen

00:57:52.560 to end his life prematurely.

00:57:54.700 Yeah, I totally agree that the testimony and the stories really are the counterpoint.

00:58:01.960 Not to say that there isn't a place for like argument and debate, obviously.

00:58:06.180 That's part of what I do.

00:58:07.480 I think that's important.

00:58:08.540 But the showing the alternative, that there is redemption in the birth and that there is

00:58:15.800 beauty, as you said, that joy and pain can actually co-mingle.

00:58:19.380 And really, when you think about like, we're so suffering averse, I mean, that has been

00:58:25.100 true since the garden, whether it's suffering through like just impatience, having to wait

00:58:30.040 for something, suffering through hardship, difficulty, rejection, whatever it is, Satan

00:58:35.420 always says, but this thing that you can have right now is going to taste really good.

00:58:41.200 And he always downplays the consequences to that.

00:58:43.880 It never wants to show you what the joy of faithfulness can be.

00:58:49.960 And so, yeah, it's just a different iteration of the same temptation that humans have always

00:58:56.400 faced, which is to take the easy way out, which easy way, I'm not saying it's easy for parents

00:59:01.680 who go through that, but the seemingly quicker way to avoid more suffering.

00:59:06.200 And then in the long run, it really does just compound the suffering.

00:59:10.660 So Able Speaks, I just want people in case they're looking and they want to know for

00:59:28.100 sure, you offer mentorship, medical connections, you guys have covered all of this, maternity

00:59:32.520 and birth photography, which I think is really special.

00:59:35.060 And then you also have a podcast where you are answering a lot of commonly asked questions,

00:59:42.660 commemorative keepsakes.

00:59:45.000 You help to create the items that people can save and be able to look at and remember their

00:59:53.820 child and their birthday.

00:59:55.440 You help with celebrations of life.

00:59:57.040 You also have community retreats.

00:59:58.840 So it's connecting a lot of people, both professionals and just the, you know, regular people going

01:00:05.620 through it to resources and to each other to make sure that everyone is as informed and

01:00:11.600 as encouraged and supported as possible.

01:00:14.500 Right.

01:00:15.180 That's correct.

01:00:16.020 Yeah.

01:00:16.380 Yeah.

01:00:16.660 Yeah.

01:00:16.820 And then all of those things, a common tie is, you know, ultimately helping families cherish

01:00:22.840 their child, but also just being rooted in relationships and knowing that with whatever

01:00:29.060 tangible, practical services and resources we can create and provide, because there's

01:00:35.020 just, there's nothing like if you're on your own, it's like you, unless you're taking your

01:00:40.100 own initiative and then it's like, okay, you're getting the best of what Google has to offer

01:00:43.900 or Facebook groups that can be kind of hit or miss.

01:00:46.780 And so trying to make it practical and helpful in that sense, but what transcends all of that

01:00:53.720 is just the connections with other parents that have walked through something similar.

01:00:59.720 And so Kelly's been very, she's our visionary and our executive director.

01:01:04.780 And that's been something that just from the beginning has been a hallmark and always will

01:01:09.500 be is yes to the resources, yes to the helpful things, but not just as like a resource hub

01:01:16.040 of here, print this off or here you go.

01:01:19.180 It's like, Hey, not to dangle the carrot, just because genuinely we think the most impactful,

01:01:24.200 transformative thing is going to be to connect you with other people.

01:01:26.920 And so that informs all of what we do.

01:01:29.420 And so that's us, those 400 families are 400 families that are getting, you know, personally,

01:01:34.280 relationally connected and being a part of a community and a, you know, a cohort that nobody's

01:01:41.620 like shoots their hand up to want to be in that club, but to know that you're not the

01:01:46.580 first and you won't be the last and you're not alone is, uh, is a game changer.

01:01:51.920 Yeah.

01:01:52.160 What we often say is that support changes stories.

01:01:55.100 And so that's what we, and we see that through relationships primarily.

01:01:59.820 And so, and something that we often hear is like pushback is like, Hey, that's great that

01:02:04.700 you chose that and you had a good experience, but I know, you know, my friend chose to continue

01:02:10.980 the pregnancy and it was a horrible traumatic experience.

01:02:14.040 And for me, what we often say is just like, man, that makes me so sad because all that

01:02:18.400 says to me is that they didn't have proper support because we've walked with 400 families

01:02:23.300 that all did have proper support.

01:02:25.400 And so they don't regret their decision to continue.

01:02:28.460 And so as Danielle said, we really, um, try to, uh, provide every opportunity we can to

01:02:36.180 connect relationally with us, with our staff, as well as like with one another, because we

01:02:41.980 really have found that that community and that relationship is really what, um, transforms

01:02:48.200 their, um, heart and mind to be able to, uh, have a different category and approach to something

01:02:55.540 like this, you know, and it's usually, we might be the first people that say to them, like,

01:02:59.800 Hey, there is a different way and there is a different option.

01:03:02.660 And let us show you what it looks like to walk through that.

01:03:05.500 Totally.

01:03:06.260 Totally.

01:03:06.640 Well, thank you guys so much for what you do.

01:03:09.260 And it's ablespeaks.org, A-B-E-L speaks.org.

01:03:13.580 If anyone just wants to learn more, if you've have been through it, maybe you can, uh, serve

01:03:19.360 as a resource and a form of support for someone else.

01:03:22.220 Or if you're in this current situation, there are a lot of people who follow me, who are

01:03:27.100 in the situation right now, who maybe they saw me post about Able Speaks on Instagram

01:03:31.960 and their lives have been changed for the better because of that.

01:03:35.020 So, and this is a, this is generational impact too, because it has an effect, not just on parents,

01:03:41.560 but also their own parents, the grandparents that are involved, the brothers and sisters.

01:03:46.380 And I mean, this is the kind of thing that carries on.

01:03:49.540 And, um, so thank you so much.

01:03:51.760 And just a, a little fun aside, Kelly is part of the reason, honestly, like part of the reason

01:03:58.920 why I was able to have a VBAC after two C-sections.

01:04:02.020 And so I might've mentioned to you not by, not by name when I was sharing my birth story,

01:04:06.700 but you had a VBAC after three C-sections.

01:04:11.520 And so I think I saw you post about it.

01:04:13.900 I think I follow Able Speaks.

01:04:15.580 And so I saw Able Speaks, maybe repost your post and I was like, I'll be back after three

01:04:19.860 C-sections.

01:04:20.420 And so I reached out to Kelly and she told me who she used, doula, connected me to all

01:04:27.200 the right people.

01:04:27.960 And then I was able to have a VBAC.

01:04:30.040 And so that's generous.

01:04:31.200 You did it.

01:04:32.120 So, um, but yeah, it's fun for me to get to, um, you know, it's, it's a journey to be

01:04:38.700 able to have a VBAC.

01:04:39.500 So I love sharing with other people, um, three C-sections like that is for some people,

01:04:45.620 they think that that is unheard of.

01:04:47.680 Oh yeah.

01:04:47.940 I mean, I can't tell you how many people said that to me.

01:04:49.680 I've never heard of anyone, you know, even people that are in like the birth world and,

01:04:53.740 and as like their profession, they're like, I've never even heard of that.

01:04:57.300 Um, so yeah, it was, um, I'm grateful to have found, you know, live in a city where there

01:05:04.020 were people that were willing to, um, to, um, walk with me through that.

01:05:08.080 But yeah, it was really fun to get to share with you and, um, and just to get to hear

01:05:13.180 that you did it, you know?

01:05:14.180 Um, I mean, it's, it's, uh, I think people don't fully understand that it is, um, it's

01:05:18.820 not easy.

01:05:19.640 It is, uh, mentally, I mean, it is hard, you know, some profound, like performances in

01:05:25.620 life and feats of human strength.

01:05:27.540 And I don't think any of it trumps that day.

01:05:30.620 Yeah.

01:05:31.760 Well, and I mean, all, all birth, whether it's C-section or whether it's a vaginal birth 0.99

01:05:38.440 or epidural or not, there are difficulties with all of it, but you having to be back

01:05:42.740 after three C-sections with no epidural is like, that is worth celebrating.

01:05:49.560 Absolutely.

01:05:50.660 And I don't know how you feel about this, but there were people in my life who were concerned,

01:05:55.100 obviously with me having to be back, including my parents, but I would always use your story.

01:06:00.320 Oh my God.

01:06:01.120 But I love that there is this woman that I know who had to be back after three C-sections

01:06:05.500 and she went, you went to almost 43 weeks.

01:06:10.140 And so I would tell everyone, my in-laws and everyone around me when I was nearing 42 weeks,

01:06:15.420 you were all like really worried.

01:06:16.740 I was like, yeah, but I know someone who went to almost 43 weeks.

01:06:19.980 We did the thing of like, hey, with our big kids, like go stay with grandma and grandpa

01:06:24.580 for this week.

01:06:26.100 Thank you guys.

01:06:27.120 Because at the latest, it'll be that.

01:06:29.380 And it's like, that week came and went.

01:06:31.520 And the kids came back and we still did not have that baby.

01:06:34.580 I totally understand that.

01:06:35.940 My in-laws came and we were like, yeah, just come at 39 weeks.

01:06:39.860 You just never know.

01:06:40.800 It's the third baby.

01:06:41.660 Definitely this baby will come earlier.

01:06:43.440 That's right.

01:06:43.940 And then I'm like, I felt, I mean, they're amazing.

01:06:46.600 And so they never made us feel bad at all, but they were there.

01:06:50.500 I was like, okay, 40 weeks, it'll be soon.

01:06:53.640 And then they're still there.

01:06:55.000 They're still there.

01:06:55.760 And they ended up staying for a long time, which was amazing.

01:06:58.860 But yes, that waiting game.

01:07:01.240 And then to have the baby, you have to overcome so many obstacles, but I'm sure also, you know,

01:07:07.480 and so there's so many things that you're like, I don't know how it's going to go.

01:07:10.080 But honestly, you know what?

01:07:10.980 I feel like Abel's life, I felt like made that journey so much easier for me because I was

01:07:16.580 like, you know what?

01:07:17.060 It's one day at a time and I'm just going to take it one day at a time and I'm not going

01:07:20.000 to worry about the next day.

01:07:21.820 And I trusted the Lord knew what day his birthday was going to be on.

01:07:25.900 And I just kept like reminding myself of that every day, you know, of, especially that last

01:07:32.160 week where I was just like, is he, is this baby ever going to come, you know?

01:07:35.220 I know.

01:07:36.100 And so.

01:07:36.860 And even on that point, like, I hope and trust that like God, you know, uses this conversation

01:07:41.760 of if somebody's made it this far in the recording and this has nothing to do, it's

01:07:47.400 like, I'm not even married.

01:07:48.220 Like, this is not the waters I'm swimming in that you're able to see.

01:07:52.420 And God's spirit is able to nudge you just with reminders of like, hey, your circumstances

01:07:58.120 that I've, you know, the things that make no sense, that are confusing, that are hard

01:08:02.880 to reconcile with my nature, that make you want to pull away from me.

01:08:07.140 Like these are ever present opportunities to be reminded of, to personally, in the most

01:08:14.960 undesirable of ways, experience the truths and the realities that transcend our circumstances

01:08:23.040 and our sufferings.

01:08:25.380 And so that's certainly our hope and our prayer is whatever level of equipping and awareness

01:08:30.320 around like, oh yeah, I've maybe heard of stuff like that loosely.

01:08:35.060 I didn't realize how often it happens that now you can know if a friend or a loved one,

01:08:40.140 you know, ever gets a diagnosis like that.

01:08:42.520 Hey, there is an organization that exists.

01:08:44.960 You know, if the doctor mentioned nothing about it, let them know we're out there and exist

01:08:49.240 to support them and walk with them.

01:08:50.740 And then, and then also just in that transcendent way that the principles and the things that

01:08:57.260 we can share about walking through Abel's life and walking alongside other people in

01:09:02.160 hardship and in the unknown is applicable with whatever, whatever it is that you're walking

01:09:07.580 through right now.

01:09:08.640 And so know that, believe that he sees you, he cares for you.

01:09:14.020 You're not alone and he's not forgotten you.

01:09:16.720 Thank you so much.

01:09:18.100 Amen.

01:09:18.920 All right.

01:09:19.340 Thanks for having us.

01:09:20.860 Yes.

01:09:21.160 Thank you.

01:09:21.600 Thank you.

01:09:21.660 Thank you.

01:09:21.720 Thank you.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - January 18, 2024

Ep 936 ｜ 'We Recommend Termination'： Defying Doctors & Choosing Life ｜ Guests： Daniel & Kelly Crawford

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