Ep 936 ｜ 'We Recommend Termination'： Defying Doctors & Choosing Life ｜ Guests： Daniel & Kelly Crawford
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 9 minutes
Words per Minute
173.16148
Summary
Daniel and Kelly Crawford are the founders of Able Speaks, a Christian nonprofit organization that helps families who are pregnant with a child that has been given a life-limiting diagnosis. In this episode, the Crawfords talk about their journey with their son, Able, and how Able has impacted their lives.
Transcript
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Babies in the womb who are given life-limiting diagnoses like trisomy 18 are often aborted with doctors and activists insisting that this is the easiest and most compassionate choice.
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But the truly loving and healing and redemptive option is to allow these babies to be born whole and to live.
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But parents in this situation, they need support. They need information. They need community. They need help.
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And that is why Able Speaks exists. This is a Christian nonprofit organization that helps families who are pregnant with a child that has been given a life-limiting diagnosis.
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You are going to be so encouraged and touched by the testimony of the founders of Able Speaks, the Crawfords, who are here today to talk about their baby boy, Able, and to talk about this organization and everything that it offers for families.
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This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to goodranchers.com. Use code Allie at checkout. That's goodranchers.com. Code Allie.
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Okay, guys. Thanks so much for joining Relatable. Could you tell us a little bit about who y'all are and what you do?
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We are the founders of an organization called Able Speaks that exists to support families who have chosen to carry a child with a life-limiting diagnosis just with the hope and the vision that each family in that scenario, every parent can choose to cherish that child's life and experience hope and joy even in the midst of sorrow and potential grief and loss.
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And so that mission and that organization stems from our kind of on-ramp into parenthood, our journey with our firstborn that we can certainly share more about.
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But that's certainly what led us to get connected with you and be here today.
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Yes. So Able Speaks. Tell me about the name of the organization and why it's called that.
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Yeah. So it comes from Hebrews 11, 4, and it says,
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Through faith, even though he is dead, Able still speaks.
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And so Able is our first son, like Daniel mentioned, and had a life-limiting diagnosis.
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And so we didn't even know that was necessarily in the scriptures until we picked his name.
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And then actually at his celebration of life, the pastor read that verse.
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And it just really obviously stuck out to us that even though his life looked different than we had hoped or imagined,
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that the Lord was like using it in profound ways in our journey, but also the ripple effects of his life with the people around us and the people that we shared his story with.
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And so like had read Hebrews, obviously, and even like had the memory of like, oh, yeah, Hebrews 11.
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That's where they list like a lot of the examples of faith from the Old Testament, but had not read through Hebrews 11 at the time where we were like thinking through names.
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We were like, yeah, I always like for people, they're like, oh, we chose this name, which means this when you break it down.
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And we're always just like, here's just the names on our list.
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But in the long run, yes, as we were getting to a point in our journey where we had thought about formalizing the kind of support that we now provide,
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that popped out as an opportunity and something that really embodied the essence of what we hope to do.
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And let's go back to finding out that you were pregnant with Able.
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Okay, summer of 2015 and normal pregnancy, I assume.
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And then at what point did you get Able's diagnosis?
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And so we wanted to find out gender as soon as possible.
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And so we decided to do the blood work at 10 weeks to find out gender.
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And we're, like, vaguely aware, you know, that they were testing for other abnormalities.
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And you kind of just don't, you don't even know.
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They're like, oh, we're testing for genetic stuff.
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And then we waited two weeks to get the results back.
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And she just said, hey, we got the results back.
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And he also has risk markers for something called trisomy 18.
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And she said, if the diagnosis holds true, then he's considered incompatible with life.
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You know, and I was asking all these questions, like, how accurate is the test?
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And which she wasn't really familiar with how the test worked and how accurate it was.
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And then just didn't know a lot about the diagnosis.
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And so she just said, you'll have to go to a maternal fetal medicine specialist to get more information.
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And so we did that about a week later and saw a specialist who said, hey, based on what I see on ultrasound, I'm 99% sure your son has trisomy 18.
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And so you guys can just terminate the pregnancy and try again for a better one.
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And how far along did you say that you were at this point?
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I mean, it was just like, this is what the diagnosis is based on what we see.
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And so there's really no reason to, like, continue the pregnancy.
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Yeah, it's, you have a third copy of the 18th chromosome.
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Trisomy 21 we know is Down syndrome, which is, you know, associated with a disability that can be life limiting, but oftentimes is not.
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Whereas trisomy 18 and trisomy 13 typically are, they're life limiting in the sense that you're probably not looking at a normal lifespan.
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The insinuation at the time was it's basically impossible.
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These babies don't survive outside of the womb, and oftentimes they don't make it full term.
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And so there's just not even a blip of hope as it's presented.
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And so we've obviously, and there's plenty more we could share about this, is that there is certainly a range of time outside of the womb that parents can still experience with their children who have diagnoses like trisomy 18 or trisomy 13.
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But yeah, at that time in that room, it was, you know, sucks the air out of the room and you're in a place where it's really the only thing that's presented is, here's what this is, here's what that means, and here's what you do next.
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So she didn't ask, she didn't say, what do you want to do or how do you feel about this, but we recommend, which is a euphemism, terminating your pregnancy.
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And this was in Texas, and at this point, this was before the fall of Roe, so this was legal to do.
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You know, he actually just said, I'm going to step out of the room.
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She was an older lady, and sometimes I'm like, was she even real, or was she like an angel?
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But she just said, you don't have to make that decision today.
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Which I was shocked that someone working for that provider with the direction that he was giving us, you know, would be so open about that.
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But, you know, we just, so we talked with her mostly, the nurse, and just said, hey, that's not something that we're open to considering.
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And, you know, she just said, yeah, I think that's wise, just to wait.
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And so the appointment was pretty abrupt after that.
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And we, you know, quickly went home, tried to, like, learn more about the diagnosis and really what we could expect.
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And I think at that point, we were trying just to get our minds around the fact that he really did have a diagnosis that was going to shorten his life.
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You know, I think it takes, like, time to process that information.
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And Daniel, I think I might have cut you off earlier, but what were you thinking through all of this?
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I imagine maybe there was even, like, a period of denial.
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Or maybe this is the child who does defy the odds.
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Yeah, I think a few things in that moment, and even a quick caveat before I answer that, is, like, it is the prevailing and predominant worldview of most medical providers to give that counsel and that advice.
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And I think that it can be taken and run with to the extent of, like, oh, they're all, like, these, you know, evil, rabidly pro-abortion, which I'm sure some are.
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Oftentimes, though, they're just like, hey, here's what's best for everybody.
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Like, I think genuinely in this specialist was actually a male, but in his heart of hearts, it's like, I bet you just think you're actually, like, helping us and sparing us from a hard experience.
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And, hey, what's the point if this is the inevitable outcome?
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And so I think you think you're doing us a favor, which I just like to point out.
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And that goes down to, like, education and equipping, which is why before we felt the need to create a nonprofit supporting families with journeys like ours, there was a burden and a component of, you know, I feel like we need to share our story and our perspective, which Kelly in particular has done, like, at Grand Rounds at hospitals and stuff,
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just to, like, create a category and a shelf in the minds of providers of, like, oh, here's a parent that got that news, moved forward, had the time, cherished that journey, and here's how she's doing after the fact.
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Here's the sentiment she can still share, which we haven't gotten to that point in sharing here yet.
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But I think most people just can't fathom that, or it seems impossible.
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And so, you know, that was one thing in that room.
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Another thing was just being thankful in hindsight that we had been at a church, a church that did their best, you know, to balance the grace and the truth, but not be afraid to lean into difficult, controversial topics, such as the life conversation, abortion, and try to equip its members around that conversation.
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And so we went into that season kind of having formulated some of our theology and some of our views, which is just I can't say enough, not waiting until you're in the moment to, like, filter through what do I think and believe, heart versus head.
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And so that was helpful in hindsight, and I think a part of the Lord's provision, which was abundant at every phase of the journey, was going into it.
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We had some kind of, you know, we knew that wasn't something that we were going to consider.
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And yet, I understand how a parent, not only because of what I said earlier, of it's really not like, do you want to do this or do you want to do that?
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And to where most people that don't have that equipping or don't have that in their world just got flipped upside down.
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So with all of that said, yeah, I think that as we think about grief, oftentimes we think about that moment of finality, and there's now a resolution.
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There is, whether it's death or whatever it is we're talking about, that's when the grief starts.
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I think in these contexts, it's really in receiving and letting the diagnosis sink in.
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We didn't know how the Lord was going to write Abel's story.
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We didn't know what the rest of that pregnancy or what time outside of the womb would look like.
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But we started grieving in that, not because we embraced like, oh, it's this inevitable thing,
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and so let's just start preparing now to say goodbye.
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There's some component of that that's really tender and hard to put words on.
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But there was a sense of, the first thing I started thinking is like, however it plays out,
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this is going to look different than I thought when Kelly shared with me for the first time,
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Because it's like, moms and dads, there's a lot of differences.
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For dads, it's like, I'm thinking about throwing baseballs with five-year-olds.
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I'm not necessarily thinking about the pregnancy, that season of newborn where the maternal instincts
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I remember it's like, in a vacuum, I might cry like once a decade, like it's a problem.
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I need to work on it and be more in touch and familiar with my emotions and feel things.
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But I remember that's when it just started catching up to me.
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And those were the first things that were inducing those emotions and those tears
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was the sense of like, I'm not going to get to do that, probably.
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And I don't know what this is going to look like, but it's probably not going to look like that.
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I think the point that you made about why theology matters and why knowing what you believe
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matters, I think a lot of times we think of these issues, issues like abortion as kind
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of secondary or tertiary divisive issues that we don't really want to think about because
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Or we think of theological debates as things that Christians really shouldn't be focused
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But when it comes down to it, what you believe in those moments acutely matters.
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Especially when you have someone who is in a position of authority, who is in a position
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to care for you and tell you what's best for you.
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And as you said, someone who doesn't have that foundation of knowing, wait, this baby,
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no matter what, is made in the image of God is thinking, wow, it's really that easy?
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I can just be done with this next week and then start over and have a great pregnancy and
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But in those highly emotional moments, you could see why that option is appealing to
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So tell me, after you left the room, you knew that that wasn't going to be the path that
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Yeah, you know, like Daniel said, I think the theology piece, but also surrounding what
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an abortion actually is, I think our church really equipped us on that.
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And so I think as we, it wasn't an option for both of those reasons, right?
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So I think it's important to know what God's word says and then to also have an understanding
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But yeah, after we left the hospital, Daniel was on staff at the church that we went to
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And so it was really the first time in my life that I experienced like God's people
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really like being the church for me personally.
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And so a lot of that just looked like people that we had known for a long time or people
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that we barely knew at all, caring for us, loving us.
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Some of that was just like, hey, I dropped coffee off on your front porch.
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And it's like, good, I'm getting out of bed for that, you know?
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And just knowing that so many people were like praying for us, I think it was really the
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first time I experienced in such a personal, tangible way, the power of like prayer and
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how that was like impacting my heart and mind on a daily basis.
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And so a lot of the services that we provide through Able Speaks are because those were things
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And they were things that we like didn't even know we needed, you know?
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And I think my favorite thing about the way that people cared for us during that season
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was that people really just got to use the gifts that God's given them to bless us, you know?
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And so to see, which a lot of people ask us, like, how do we like support families that
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And I'm like, hey, what are the gifts and skills that God's given you?
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And other people that are caring for them get to do the same.
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And all together, that, you know, forms really solid care and support.
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And so, and none of it was like super profound, you know?
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Some of it was just giving us connections for providers if we needed them or giving us,
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like I said, coffee on our front porch or just like small things that made us feel less
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We, at one point, invited folks, obviously, to pray for us and for Able throughout that
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journey, which really was just the walking through, walking into and through the unknown.
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Because, again, we're like late first trimester at that point.
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If this goes full term, we're talking like several months of sitting in this, we don't
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know what lies ahead moment, which is incredibly vulnerable.
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And we, in this day and age, have such a high ability to control so many different facets
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of our life, where to have one glaring thing that is like, you really, you can prepare yourself
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You can have good community, you can have all these things, but there's a finite point where
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it's like, you can't really do much more other than wait.
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And so in that stretch, you know, I think that as we talk about suffering, which at this point
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in an age, you know, as Kelly said, it was probably the first really profound stretch
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of hardship, of a circumstance that had entered our lives.
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And nobody, like, opts for that and pursues that and seeks that.
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And yet, we got to see not only through God's people, through God's Word, as we talked about,
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through His Spirit, but just the way that He draws near to the brokenhearted.
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And just the things that, maybe stories that you're familiar with, you know, if you've been
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around church or the scriptures that just took on color and, like, new light, and, like,
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the notion of, like, collecting manna one day at a time.
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And it's like, that's all we can do, is take it day by day and trust that He's going to
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And we don't get a week's worth, we don't get a month's worth, we don't know what is coming
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down the stretch, but there's this daily sense of abiding and trusting on our end, and then
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And so that whole stretch, you know, as we invited people to pray, we picked just a time.
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So we're coming up on His eighth birthday, like, next week.
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And so that was another just really special, profound thing, is folks set their alarm for
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They just symbolized this, you know, here's what we're going for, is that's, you know,
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carry this baby full term, and He's going to be born, and we're going to get time with
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And if the Lord wills, you know, shock us, do something miraculous, you know, you can do
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And yet, we also know that you love this child more than we even do, and you created
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So prepare our hearts for whatever lies ahead, but also we feel freedom to ask you for what
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But when our alarms would go off every day at 129, it was this, we're thinking about it
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So it wasn't like, oh, yeah, Abel, let's pray real quick.
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It was a daily reminder for us that it got to the point where hundreds, potentially thousands
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of alarms were going off every day at that time.
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And so for us, it was like, that was a reminder every day of like, hey, for the next minute,
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But in this moment, there are hundreds of prayers right now.
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And so many people would text us like at that time every day and be like, hey, this is what
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I've been praying for you guys for, specifically for today, which was like such a gift.
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I think, too, people challenged us a lot in that season.
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So even like Daniel talking about like truly asking God for what we wanted, you know?
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Friends asked like, hey, do you feel freedom to ask for what you want?
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And are you actually doing it, you know, because in those moments, of course, what we wanted
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But I think even asking God for what you really want is vulnerable, you know, because it's
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like we also know that that might not be our story.
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And so I think some of the greatest gifts that people gave us were really leaning in
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You know, do you feel freedom to do that or ask that?
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And I think that really blessed our journey in just like keeping us focused, you know,
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And I think allowed us to look back on that time with like no regrets.
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In a way that emphasized like just the authenticity and intimacy that can come from praying whatever
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you got, whatever's on your heart, not some of the stuff because people well-intended can
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do the like, hey, if you pray hard enough or if you pray this way or you have enough
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If you believe that it's going to happen, it will.
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And then you'll basically like coax that blessing and that healing out of him, which is.
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There's so much to say about that, of how painful.
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I mean, I can't imagine wholeheartedly embracing and believing that and then not having that
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And then the only thing to point to and look back on is I must have did something wrong
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So anyways, without going down that rabbit trail, it was, you know, a profound time of,
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you know, that literal like Psalm 23 idea of walking through the valley of the shadow of
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death and trusting the good shepherd and having other people, you know, whose voices and whose
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presence were there with you to shepherd and point you back and just take it a step at a
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time, a day at a time to where we'll say often like that period of intimacy and connection
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with the Lord was unprecedented up to that point.
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And then really even looking back, you know, our story and journey with Abel has now changed
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everything about our lives, including what we do vocationally.
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But even like replicating what those months felt like when we were navigating the unknown
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How did you find a provider that you were comfortable with given the situation and what
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So we called our OB and said we didn't love that experience.
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And she said, yeah, hey, I think this person might be a little bit better fit for you
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So we went to see him probably two weeks after that.
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Just he was really the first person that said, hey, your son's alive today.
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And so for us, we really took that and we were like, hey, we are going to celebrate every
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day that we have with him, even if it's just in the womb.
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And so he really valued Abel's life and valued what our desires for what his life could look
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Especially as a dad who wasn't actively pregnant.
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That there's that challenge of connection and everything.
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Like, put it right there and give it a little poke.
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And like, you interacting and it's like, wow, dang.
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And so it really was this powerful picture and dichotomy of like, what sort of sway and
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influence and impact people in that role can have.
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And we're so grateful because they're out there.
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The providers that take that approach to their care and to their patients, they're out there.
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And that's one of the resources we provide through AbleSpeaks is just medical connections
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And then we've had some that have had a huge impact on our story and journey.
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And so and that's what I get to say when we get to meet with medical professionals is
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just like you like have so much power to like impact someone's journey.
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And you get to choose if that's for good or not, you know.
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And so let us help you know some maybe better practices to support them in a way that they
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And tell me about the days leading up to Able's birth and then what it was like when he was
00:27:39.640
I think the days leading up feel like a blur kind of, you know.
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Um, he was our first, so we didn't have any other kids running around.
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Um, and so again, like Daniel said, I think we just tried to take it a day at a time.
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And, um, the week before, I think, which is funny, like Daniel said, we're like a week
00:28:01.420
Um, he'd be turning eight years old, which is crazy.
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But, you know, I think it's just like this weird emotion of like, I want to meet my son,
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but I also know that meeting him might also mean him passing.
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And so that's like a really, um, it's a really strange place to be.
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And so, um, but we really did, you know, a couple weeks before he was born, it was just
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And whatever the Lord has for us, like, we're going to trust that that's going to be good.
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And so that's true of all of our children, you know, like.
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The excitement and anticipation of getting to know them, um, is just like one of the
00:28:47.740
And, and so that was true, um, of him too, even though it looked a lot different than
00:28:53.720
Um, we did not feel that way the whole pregnancy, you know, the waiting is like excruciating all
00:28:58.160
the unknowns that you're, you know, facing, um, feel just, um, overwhelming.
00:29:03.540
But did you know that you would have to have a scheduled C-section?
00:29:10.380
Um, our provider didn't want to do a C-section.
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She said it wasn't worth it, um, because he wasn't going to survive.
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And so, um, so I just said, Hey, like, that's what I think is going to be best for him and
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He had a heart condition that we were concerned he might not survive the labor.
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And so, um, that was like one of my first, um, experiences, uh, as a mom of like, Oh,
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I've actually got to like stand up for what I, you know, what I think is best.
00:29:42.720
Basically she was saying because of the difficulty that a C-section would be for you, it's not
00:29:47.740
worth doing something that would be better for him because he's not going to survive any
00:29:54.380
And so, um, we went back and forth on that for several months.
00:30:02.500
And so, um, yeah, we scheduled a C-section for 39 weeks and we weren't sure that we would
00:30:11.480
And so, um, yeah, you know, I think we went into, um, his birth, just trying to hold it
00:30:20.300
And what we often say is that it really felt like holy ground that day.
00:30:26.760
You know, the Lord was so present and, um, it was just like palpable his presence in that
00:30:35.360
Um, and he was born and we didn't know if we'd get minutes with him outside of the womb
00:30:44.120
And so he was born and stabilized pretty quickly, which was like a surprise to everybody.
00:30:52.060
And then they were like, maybe he doesn't have trisomy 18.
00:30:56.300
Um, so, you know, there's like all these things going on, um, all at once, but.
00:31:02.020
Yeah, we immediately did skin to skin and, um, and then, yeah, we went back to just like
00:31:08.040
the post-op room and, um, Daniel and I had decided to spend like the first few hours with
00:31:12.520
him just as a family of three, um, which was like such a gift, but, um, he was doing like
00:31:19.980
And so our like friends and family were in the waiting room and got to come back, um,
00:31:25.600
which also was something we weren't sure that they would get to meet him alive.
00:31:29.080
And so the fact that they did was, um, such a gift to us even now, because they get to
00:31:35.580
say, remember when Abel did this or remember when he looked like that, or he had a long
00:31:40.740
toe like your brother or like all the things, you know, that we get to talk about when we
00:31:44.520
have babies, um, is a part of like his story too.
00:31:48.400
And so, and it just humanized him, you know, where other people get to talk about him when
00:31:58.440
I mean, and that's what we tell families, um, that we get to walk with through Abel Speaks
00:32:03.300
is like, it's hard to get your mind around it right now.
00:32:07.760
But I promise like meeting our children is unlike any other life experience.
00:32:12.540
And that's going to be true of your child, even if they have a life limiting diagnosis.
00:32:18.320
And so, um, but yeah, that first day, you know, um, it was lots of family and friends
00:32:25.760
coming in and getting to hold him and meet him.
00:32:28.020
And, um, it was just such a, an unexpected gift to get that time with him.
00:32:36.840
I would say also to a degree, and I hope I speak to it like tenderly, but even the families
00:32:42.360
with the hundreds of families that we've walked with at this point, you know, um, a percentage
00:32:47.380
of them, you know, will experience, uh, stillbirth and the sentiment still holds to a degree that
00:32:55.040
candidly I, cause we prayed for that often, like everybody's different and has these different
00:33:02.000
things of like, oh man, that's really a longing on our hearts.
00:33:04.400
But we, um, we're very hopeful and wanted to do whatever we could to try and meet him
00:33:11.340
alive and have time with him outside of the womb.
00:33:13.320
Um, and so not everybody approaches it the same way, but even for the families that don't
00:33:19.080
get that time with their child outside of the womb, they say the same thing, which is, man,
00:33:27.200
And it's that, you know, bittersweet mixture of emotions.
00:33:30.620
Cause there's obviously pain and grief that comes with loss and death.
00:33:35.240
Um, but then there's this sense of, man, we've been thinking about talking about praying
00:33:43.160
And like, we get an idea on ultrasound of like, oh, I think you might have your nose,
00:33:50.320
And, um, so we'll say that to folks, you know, often that we're serving cause that's in,
00:33:58.300
And there is for a good chunk, most probably of the pregnancies, there's this sense of like,
00:34:09.580
And I'm like having to gear up and prepare for potentially saying goodbye.
00:34:15.420
But then as Kelly said earlier, when you get closer and closer, I think that does in a way
00:34:22.240
Like it gets not replaced totally, but, um, you feel this sense of, of joy and anticipation,
00:34:30.080
anticipation in, in the positive sense of like, okay, he's about to be here.
00:34:36.760
And so nobody can take that away and you wouldn't trade it for anything.
00:34:43.040
And again, these are sentiments that over 400 families now that we've walked with, um,
00:34:49.400
that is a prevailing universal sentiment is that sense of, we wouldn't trade that day
00:34:58.180
And, um, you know, if we were God, we would have written it differently.
00:35:02.780
And we can say that, and we have permission to say that.
00:35:05.940
And yet, even in that, we see his hand, we see his redemptive components,
00:35:13.420
and we just see the gospel infused reality of life in this present world that, that joy
00:35:21.980
and sorrow, they can go together and they can go exist.
00:35:26.320
And oftentimes greater depths of one, um, is paired with greater depths of the other.
00:35:31.700
And that's what it is to love something, right?
00:35:33.900
It is the greater depths of love and joy that you experience in association with something,
00:35:39.400
the greater depths of pain that comes with, um, losing that something.
00:35:48.920
I remember reading a quote years ago now, and I don't remember who it's by,
00:35:54.240
but something along the lines of anxiety is imagining the future without God's grace in it.
00:36:00.940
And you really only feel God's grace in the present moment.
00:36:04.380
So when we picture whatever scary day it is that we're imagining, whether we know what's
00:36:11.040
going to happen, like the birth of a child who won't survive long after birth or something
00:36:14.620
that we think is going to happen, when anxiety takes over, it's because we forget that God's
00:36:21.620
And going back to what you said about taking the daily bread of each day, taking the manna of
00:36:33.700
We're not supposed to understand how it's going to feel when God's grace meets us in
00:36:41.720
Um, and I've never heard, as you said, I haven't talked to as many parents as you guys
00:36:46.500
have, but I've never heard a family regret that experience and regret being able to meet
00:36:52.320
their child, whether the child had already passed in the womb or whether the child lived
00:36:59.440
God's grace has always met them there and they've always been so grateful for that experience.
00:37:04.500
And I think that's an important piece too, because this, even like if you step outside
00:37:08.500
of sharing the same faith convictions and worldview that we share, you know, there's secular,
00:37:15.160
you know, um, Duke university did a study that basically tracked like, Hey, parents who get
00:37:22.740
a life limit diagnosis, those who terminate versus those who continue, like what are the
00:37:27.800
longer term outcomes, like psychologically, emotionally, like who fares better?
00:37:34.440
And the study found that those that carry and continue fare better in the long run.
00:37:40.040
And it's because of, you know, all of the things of like, Hey, there's, of course, we're
00:37:45.440
going to find stats that back up God's universal truths.
00:37:49.600
But I think that because there was this, Hey, we resisted the temptation to take matters into
00:37:55.900
our own hands, to do what was right in our own eyes.
00:38:00.260
Um, and we saw this through that as you're talking about regrets, I do think there's far less
00:38:07.800
regrets associated because it's like, Hey, we let this play out and we try to be as far
00:38:13.420
as informed as we could be, know our options, know the possibilities and not just walk through
00:38:19.300
But at the same time, I think that absolutely contributes to the long-term sense of, um,
00:38:26.160
peace and absence of regrets, as opposed to, uh, we talk about this often, like
00:38:31.320
choosing to set the date that Abel was going to pass and end the pregnancy and have the
00:38:41.940
Um, it really wouldn't have spared any of the sense of loss or suffering, or it would
00:38:48.420
have shortened the season of unknowns and all of those things.
00:38:51.880
But you essentially get all of, all of the hard stuff and all of the sad stuff and you've
00:38:58.340
just forfeited all of the joyful, redemptive stuff and that's not going to go well long
00:39:05.960
And that's more than anything rather than because we've walked with folks of all different religions,
00:39:13.580
um, no religion, you know, single moms, like name the circumstance that has been transcendent.
00:39:21.880
Um, and, and, and I think that's what it's rooted in ultimately.
00:39:34.180
Um, which was like one of Daniel's like prayers was that we would get to take him home.
00:39:39.320
And I was like, oh man, I don't know if we can take home a child that is, you know,
00:39:45.740
Um, but yeah, you quickly like learn all the medical things and how did you, you know,
00:39:51.860
what you need to do to take care of your child.
00:39:53.520
So we got to take him home, um, on day four and, um, got to spend the rest of his time,
00:40:03.980
And, um, just to get to be a family in our own home, you know, um, was something that
00:40:09.980
we never could have imagined getting to do with him and, um, having people get to come
00:40:16.340
see him and see us and things like that and just go to our favorite park around the corner
00:40:20.980
and watch a movie that we love or, you know, um, things that are just like mundane things
00:40:28.200
of life that we were never, um, we couldn't even like get our minds around the possibility
00:40:35.440
And so, yeah, we, um, we didn't, um, I think again, like I said, we wouldn't, went into his
00:40:45.340
birth just super open-handed and, um, and we're hoping just for hours.
00:40:50.380
And so I feel like the Lord, um, gave us, uh, more than we could have imagined or expected.
00:40:56.660
And, um, and then, yeah, I think on, on the piece about like grace, you know, I think that
00:41:02.560
that is, um, something that God used Abel's life to totally change the way that we approach
00:41:10.600
our day to day, you know, in the best of ways, I think of just, and we really do, there's
00:41:16.540
so much freedom in just going, you know what, like we have the next 24 hours and we can trust
00:41:21.580
that God's going to give us what we need today.
00:41:23.780
And that's really what Abel's 15 days looked like was just one day at a time, we're going
00:41:30.440
to do what is before us and trust that God's going to give us the strength to do that.
00:41:35.000
Um, and then he's going to give it for the next day and the next day.
00:41:39.060
And even on the day that Abel passed away, you know, it's, it's odd, but it, it really
00:41:48.760
Um, I mean, it's the hardest day of our lives too, but, um, but yeah, you know, I think getting
00:41:56.060
to see, getting to know that Abel's like last breath on earth with us was like getting
00:42:04.880
Um, and that being your child is like, unlike, and trying to get your mind around like, what
00:42:13.640
I think, um, it was the worst day for us in a lot of ways, but the best day for him.
00:42:19.060
Um, but yeah, even on the day that he passed, you know, I, I think that again, the Lord's
00:42:24.320
presence was like, just felt so, he was so near to us.
00:42:29.180
Um, and, uh, and we just trusted like, Hey, that this is the time that God wrote for him,
00:42:36.540
And of course, like Daniel said, if we were God, he'd still be here.
00:42:40.220
And those two things can hold true, you know, at the same time, uh, which I think sometimes
00:42:44.880
people have a hard time, um, getting their minds around.
00:42:50.780
And then how long after his birth and his death, did you realize that you were being
00:42:57.580
led to create this organization for other families?
00:43:00.580
Because a lot of families have been through similar experiences, but not every family says,
00:43:05.580
okay, there needs to be something else for families who have gone through this.
00:43:14.980
So I would just say, um, about four months after Abel passed away, we had a friend of
00:43:22.100
a friend reach out and say, you know, we were pretty open with our story when, um, we were
00:43:27.800
And so they just said, Hey, I know someone that got a similar diagnosis.
00:43:31.640
Would you be willing to share your story with them?
00:43:34.060
Um, and just like any insight that you have on how to walk through something like this.
00:43:41.360
And, and then that phone call just kind of kept coming every like three or four months,
00:43:45.560
somebody would reach out and say, Hey, would you like connect with this family?
00:43:48.480
And so we just thought it'd be like a family, uh, ministry for us, you know, just like,
00:43:53.540
Hey, this is, this is how we will continue to steward Abel's life.
00:43:56.560
Like we don't get to parent him on earth in the way that we had hoped, but this is a way
00:44:01.420
that we get to feel like we are still parenting him to some extent, you know?
00:44:05.680
Without the burden of like, we've got to do something.
00:44:11.440
We've got like, there wasn't that sense of pressure.
00:44:14.000
However, it was just, yeah, it's hard to even explain it.
00:44:17.640
It was just a one step of faithfulness at a time.
00:44:21.040
We want to be open to responding to opportunities that we feel like clearly the Lord's bringing
00:44:29.300
And then over time is you're just picking up patterns.
00:44:31.720
You're like, I don't think we're forcing this thing and trying to make fetch happen here.
00:44:36.160
I think that it's just like, no, there's not only continuing opportunities and, and need,
00:44:41.940
but also like pretty clear gaps that we, you know, at the time it's like, we didn't know
00:44:50.380
what we didn't know and we were learning as we were going.
00:44:56.200
But there's also stuff that was present that I think was easy to take for granted that we're
00:45:05.240
Like in the positive way of like, yeah, the support that we had, I think in that season,
00:45:10.940
as we were walking with other families, we began to realize like, oh, that wasn't, our
00:45:18.280
And so a lot of families, um, even as they're like trying to decide, should they terminate?
00:45:23.060
It's like, oh, the, the like understanding from a theological standpoint and just from a
00:45:27.780
general education of what an abortion is and all of those things, there was just like
00:45:33.100
And so, um, all the way to like, um, you know, how do we navigate this with like friends
00:45:39.700
and family that are trying to love and support us, but they don't know what to say.
00:45:44.720
They don't know what to do, you know, um, maritally, how do we like navigate, you know,
00:45:50.180
going through intense suffering and grief together, but also individually.
00:45:54.040
And so there's just so many siblings, you know, people, we didn't have other children,
00:45:57.840
but if the families had kids, it's like, how do we navigate grief with children, you
00:46:03.060
Or sometimes people would start with enough of a conviction, like, Hey, we're, we're
00:46:10.500
But what does it look like to actually follow through?
00:46:14.000
It's like, you just kind of grit your teeth and you get through it.
00:46:17.100
And there's like a lack of like, Hey, here's like, here's not just theologically as far as
00:46:23.940
headwise, but just like, here's how you can navigate that season and just having that
00:46:31.100
And a lot of the stuff we've talked about here for a while, there's can be a real deficit.
00:46:36.520
And so that's relationally, maritally, medically.
00:46:40.780
Sometimes it's like, we dread these appointments having such a hard time.
00:46:45.360
It's like, you know, you can find somebody else, like just really practical things that
00:46:50.040
we're like, wow, okay, we wouldn't have necessarily known to do this if this wasn't our story.
00:46:57.080
But to know that there is a different way, a better way, you do have choices, you do have
00:47:06.120
There's just a lot of gaps in care and support for such a niche population, you know?
00:47:11.800
And even in our own story with Abel, I mean, we had some really difficult after he was born
00:47:16.660
where the medical team just expected him to die.
00:47:21.720
And then when he didn't, they didn't really know what to do.
00:47:24.920
And it was like, and I mean, ultimately it came down to like denying care, you know, are
00:47:34.120
And, you know, and it's like, well, it's just futile.
00:47:38.500
So, or if we, you know, wanted to learn more about how his heart was doing, it's like, that's
00:47:46.080
We won't have insurance cover that, you know, like all of those things that we were totally
00:47:52.540
And so as we were walking with families, all of these things, we just saw patterns, like
00:47:58.680
Daniel said, of like, oh, that's, I think there's a real need here.
00:48:03.680
And so we decided to like formally establish Abel Speaks in January of 2018 on what would
00:48:13.100
And so we just thought it would be like 10 families a year in the Dallas-Fort Worth area.
00:48:21.660
We didn't have like a three-year plan or a 10-year plan or anything like that for the
00:48:32.720
And so we were just kind of making it work early on.
00:48:38.000
And then in like 18 months, the ministry just like exploded.
00:48:42.160
And so we were kind of looking at each other like, okay, either we need to go all in as
00:48:48.720
a family on this and trust that this is what God's calling us to, if that's what we think.
00:48:53.440
Or we need to like find somebody else to like start running it because we just don't have
00:48:58.900
And so Daniel left his job in the fall of 2019.
00:49:04.800
And we both started working for the ministry full-time.
00:49:08.380
And yeah, since then we've served, like Daniel said, over 400 families, which is just crazy.
00:49:14.600
And in every U.S. state, eight different countries.
00:49:23.160
We were already using it, connecting with people, you know, across the world.
00:49:33.840
But yeah, you know, we've just tried to say yes to the next door that the Lord has opened
00:49:40.440
and tried to be as faithful as possible to steward the story that he's given us.
00:49:46.520
And it's been a huge gift to us just to get to, there's something very humbling and profound
00:49:56.240
to get to walk with people through the darkest valleys, you know, and for them to like share
00:50:13.580
And just the way that the Lord uses the families that we get to walk with in our life.
00:50:20.180
And I think it just keeps in the forefront of our minds all the time.
00:50:24.580
Like what we do keeps, it reminds us just, you know, of how futile life, or, you know,
00:50:36.200
It's fleeting and it's just so short and that it helps keep an eternal perspective,
00:50:44.600
you know, for us and which we see as like a gift.
00:50:50.880
And you talked about just not just gaps in care, but also a lack of knowledge about these
00:50:59.220
Some people don't even know that there is a redemptive option, that you can birth your
00:51:03.520
baby whole and see their face and love them for their last moments or days of their life.
00:51:10.240
When we read stories like we see in the media, they're presented as kind of, you know, a way
00:51:21.860
When you hear a story like the woman, Kate Cox, who traveled from Texas.
00:51:26.820
I think she also, her baby also had trisomy, 18, and she wanted to have an abortion.
00:51:34.820
And what you hear from the pro-choice side is that, of course, that's the most compassionate
00:51:43.000
And it just goes to show like there is a lot of work to be done.
00:51:46.440
For some people, maybe it's not a lack of knowledge.
00:51:48.660
As you said, maybe, you know, for some people, they're just not really pro-abortion and they're
00:51:52.900
But for some people, I mean, even those who consider themselves pro-life, they say, well,
00:51:58.780
but in this case, in this case, yeah, I'm pro-life, but-
00:52:07.620
But you have seen now what it looks like for parents to choose the redemptive and life-giving
00:52:16.340
And there's just a lot of work to be done, a lot of knowledge to be shared and wisdom
00:52:21.200
Of course, it requires heart change and all of that, but some people just don't have the
00:52:27.340
I think, too, not like, I think we just don't understand suffering, you know?
00:52:34.400
And so we don't, as humans, like we want to run away from hard things always.
00:52:38.920
And I think that's just like our human instinct is to move away from it.
00:52:44.460
But I think like what we've learned is like, if we sit in it and like trust that God is
00:52:52.400
good and has a good plan and purpose for our life, I think we get to see the redemptive
00:53:02.560
And if nothing else, you know, Abel's life has helped me know my creator more.
00:53:09.900
And so if nothing else, like that is a humbling gift from my son, you know, that God has used
00:53:24.700
And so I think that we just, even as believers, we don't have a good worldview on suffering
00:53:34.140
Like, I don't think God wants us to suffer, but I also think that he knows our humanity,
00:53:38.620
you know, and that that's often the best way to draw us into knowing and trusting him more.
00:53:51.760
And so I do think that aversion to suffering or imposing what feels like imposing suffering
00:53:57.180
on somebody else is a huge piece of what fuels that mostly well-intended but misguided compassion
00:54:05.100
that you were talking about is because it's people and oftentimes believers that are like,
00:54:09.980
hey, well, here's what is really the kind response.
00:54:13.160
Or here's the most Christ-like, you know, here's the most compassionate way to stance
00:54:22.700
It doesn't take long to, in your world class at this, of just like, okay, well, just consider
00:54:28.840
like, yes, I'm not saying turn off your heart, but I'm saying turn on your mind and just here's
00:54:33.940
And can you see the inconsistencies of how that's maybe not actually, it might feel like
00:54:41.280
or seem like on the surface, the most compassionate response.
00:54:44.060
But if A, B, and C are true, then that's actually, that doesn't, that doesn't line up.
00:54:49.940
And so we've tried the best, you know, that we can.
00:54:53.380
And at the end of the day, we lead with our, our story.
00:54:56.700
And like I said, up top, like, you know, I think one of the best apologetics we have
00:55:01.860
as believers as a whole is just like, here's my story and what I've gleaned from it and your
00:55:07.300
But I think as it applies to, you know, the pro-life movement or the abortion conversation,
00:55:14.380
you know, I think sharing our story and our experience with Abel and our work with Abel
00:55:20.540
Speaks, hopefully can just like people like, wow, I've never considered that or thought
00:55:25.700
And the little I did think about it led me to this conclusion.
00:55:29.240
Now that I think about that, it's like, oh, and so that's like where we hang our hat at
00:55:34.220
But we also are like, man, I do think it's important to have those foundational, fundamental,
00:55:42.060
hey, think about these things now so that when the story and the headline that comes out
00:55:47.020
that pulls on your heartstrings, be like, does that does that line up, though?
00:55:53.580
How can I always have grace, but also balance that with truth, not at the cost of truth?
00:55:57.480
And so we did try and we put together like a quick little kind of short resource called
00:56:09.760
I think it's on our homepage right now, where if you go to ablespeaks.org, it pops up as a
00:56:13.860
free download, just because we do kind of especially recently in light of, you know,
00:56:19.920
our what's normally a very small off the radar niche kind of got pushed to the forefront of
00:56:25.460
some national news with the Cox case the other month in Texas, that it kind of the responses
00:56:33.180
we saw from people, even as we, you know, would post things, it's like, oh, man, love this.
00:56:39.860
Like, agreeing with us, but also I think it's really good that everybody has like the ability
00:56:51.660
I think the, you know, exception to the rule that our niche falls into for a lot of people,
00:56:57.920
even believers or people that are pro-life, I think trying to equip people of like, yeah,
00:57:02.660
but even in these circumstances, you know, this is what we can know to be true and surrounding
00:57:11.920
But, and also like Daniel said, you know, we try to lead with, man, the things that we
00:57:15.760
would have given up, how we terminated Abel's life, ended his life, you know, by our own accord
00:57:26.240
We wouldn't have been able to give him a bath, you know.
00:57:28.820
Um, our friends and family would have never gotten to meet him.
00:57:33.840
There's so many things that we got to do with him because he is a human, you know, um, and
00:57:41.280
he, his, he was alive, you know, and there's things that memories and things that we got
00:57:47.120
to experience with him that those are the things that we would have given up had we chosen
00:57:54.700
Yeah, I totally agree that the testimony and the stories really are the counterpoint.
00:58:01.960
Not to say that there isn't a place for like argument and debate, obviously.
00:58:08.540
But the showing the alternative, that there is redemption in the birth and that there is
00:58:15.800
beauty, as you said, that joy and pain can actually co-mingle.
00:58:19.380
And really, when you think about like, we're so suffering averse, I mean, that has been
00:58:25.100
true since the garden, whether it's suffering through like just impatience, having to wait
00:58:30.040
for something, suffering through hardship, difficulty, rejection, whatever it is, Satan
00:58:35.420
always says, but this thing that you can have right now is going to taste really good.
00:58:41.200
And he always downplays the consequences to that.
00:58:43.880
It never wants to show you what the joy of faithfulness can be.
00:58:49.960
And so, yeah, it's just a different iteration of the same temptation that humans have always
00:58:56.400
faced, which is to take the easy way out, which easy way, I'm not saying it's easy for parents
00:59:01.680
who go through that, but the seemingly quicker way to avoid more suffering.
00:59:06.200
And then in the long run, it really does just compound the suffering.
00:59:10.660
So Able Speaks, I just want people in case they're looking and they want to know for
00:59:28.100
sure, you offer mentorship, medical connections, you guys have covered all of this, maternity
00:59:32.520
and birth photography, which I think is really special.
00:59:35.060
And then you also have a podcast where you are answering a lot of commonly asked questions,
00:59:45.000
You help to create the items that people can save and be able to look at and remember their
00:59:58.840
So it's connecting a lot of people, both professionals and just the, you know, regular people going
01:00:05.620
through it to resources and to each other to make sure that everyone is as informed and
01:00:16.820
And then all of those things, a common tie is, you know, ultimately helping families cherish
01:00:22.840
their child, but also just being rooted in relationships and knowing that with whatever
01:00:29.060
tangible, practical services and resources we can create and provide, because there's
01:00:35.020
just, there's nothing like if you're on your own, it's like you, unless you're taking your
01:00:40.100
own initiative and then it's like, okay, you're getting the best of what Google has to offer
01:00:43.900
or Facebook groups that can be kind of hit or miss.
01:00:46.780
And so trying to make it practical and helpful in that sense, but what transcends all of that
01:00:53.720
is just the connections with other parents that have walked through something similar.
01:00:59.720
And so Kelly's been very, she's our visionary and our executive director.
01:01:04.780
And that's been something that just from the beginning has been a hallmark and always will
01:01:09.500
be is yes to the resources, yes to the helpful things, but not just as like a resource hub
01:01:19.180
It's like, Hey, not to dangle the carrot, just because genuinely we think the most impactful,
01:01:24.200
transformative thing is going to be to connect you with other people.
01:01:29.420
And so that's us, those 400 families are 400 families that are getting, you know, personally,
01:01:34.280
relationally connected and being a part of a community and a, you know, a cohort that nobody's
01:01:41.620
like shoots their hand up to want to be in that club, but to know that you're not the
01:01:46.580
first and you won't be the last and you're not alone is, uh, is a game changer.
01:01:52.160
What we often say is that support changes stories.
01:01:55.100
And so that's what we, and we see that through relationships primarily.
01:01:59.820
And so, and something that we often hear is like pushback is like, Hey, that's great that
01:02:04.700
you chose that and you had a good experience, but I know, you know, my friend chose to continue
01:02:10.980
the pregnancy and it was a horrible traumatic experience.
01:02:14.040
And for me, what we often say is just like, man, that makes me so sad because all that
01:02:18.400
says to me is that they didn't have proper support because we've walked with 400 families
01:02:25.400
And so they don't regret their decision to continue.
01:02:28.460
And so as Danielle said, we really, um, try to, uh, provide every opportunity we can to
01:02:36.180
connect relationally with us, with our staff, as well as like with one another, because we
01:02:41.980
really have found that that community and that relationship is really what, um, transforms
01:02:48.200
their, um, heart and mind to be able to, uh, have a different category and approach to something
01:02:55.540
like this, you know, and it's usually, we might be the first people that say to them, like,
01:02:59.800
Hey, there is a different way and there is a different option.
01:03:02.660
And let us show you what it looks like to walk through that.
01:03:13.580
If anyone just wants to learn more, if you've have been through it, maybe you can, uh, serve
01:03:19.360
as a resource and a form of support for someone else.
01:03:22.220
Or if you're in this current situation, there are a lot of people who follow me, who are
01:03:27.100
in the situation right now, who maybe they saw me post about Able Speaks on Instagram
01:03:31.960
and their lives have been changed for the better because of that.
01:03:35.020
So, and this is a, this is generational impact too, because it has an effect, not just on parents,
01:03:41.560
but also their own parents, the grandparents that are involved, the brothers and sisters.
01:03:46.380
And I mean, this is the kind of thing that carries on.
01:03:51.760
And just a, a little fun aside, Kelly is part of the reason, honestly, like part of the reason
01:03:58.920
why I was able to have a VBAC after two C-sections.
01:04:02.020
And so I might've mentioned to you not by, not by name when I was sharing my birth story,
01:04:15.580
And so I saw Able Speaks, maybe repost your post and I was like, I'll be back after three
01:04:20.420
And so I reached out to Kelly and she told me who she used, doula, connected me to all
01:04:32.120
So, um, but yeah, it's fun for me to get to, um, you know, it's, it's a journey to be
01:04:39.500
So I love sharing with other people, um, three C-sections like that is for some people,
01:04:47.940
I mean, I can't tell you how many people said that to me.
01:04:49.680
I've never heard of anyone, you know, even people that are in like the birth world and,
01:04:53.740
and as like their profession, they're like, I've never even heard of that.
01:04:57.300
Um, so yeah, it was, um, I'm grateful to have found, you know, live in a city where there
01:05:04.020
were people that were willing to, um, to, um, walk with me through that.
01:05:08.080
But yeah, it was really fun to get to share with you and, um, and just to get to hear
01:05:14.180
Um, I mean, it's, it's, uh, I think people don't fully understand that it is, um, it's
01:05:19.640
It is, uh, mentally, I mean, it is hard, you know, some profound, like performances in
01:05:31.760
Well, and I mean, all, all birth, whether it's C-section or whether it's a vaginal birth
01:05:38.440
or epidural or not, there are difficulties with all of it, but you having to be back
01:05:42.740
after three C-sections with no epidural is like, that is worth celebrating.
01:05:50.660
And I don't know how you feel about this, but there were people in my life who were concerned,
01:05:55.100
obviously with me having to be back, including my parents, but I would always use your story.
01:06:01.120
But I love that there is this woman that I know who had to be back after three C-sections
01:06:10.140
And so I would tell everyone, my in-laws and everyone around me when I was nearing 42 weeks,
01:06:16.740
I was like, yeah, but I know someone who went to almost 43 weeks.
01:06:19.980
We did the thing of like, hey, with our big kids, like go stay with grandma and grandpa
01:06:31.520
And the kids came back and we still did not have that baby.
01:06:35.940
My in-laws came and we were like, yeah, just come at 39 weeks.
01:06:43.940
And then I'm like, I felt, I mean, they're amazing.
01:06:46.600
And so they never made us feel bad at all, but they were there.
01:06:55.760
And they ended up staying for a long time, which was amazing.
01:07:01.240
And then to have the baby, you have to overcome so many obstacles, but I'm sure also, you know,
01:07:07.480
and so there's so many things that you're like, I don't know how it's going to go.
01:07:10.980
I feel like Abel's life, I felt like made that journey so much easier for me because I was
01:07:17.060
It's one day at a time and I'm just going to take it one day at a time and I'm not going
01:07:21.820
And I trusted the Lord knew what day his birthday was going to be on.
01:07:25.900
And I just kept like reminding myself of that every day, you know, of, especially that last
01:07:32.160
week where I was just like, is he, is this baby ever going to come, you know?
01:07:36.860
And even on that point, like, I hope and trust that like God, you know, uses this conversation
01:07:41.760
of if somebody's made it this far in the recording and this has nothing to do, it's
01:07:48.220
Like, this is not the waters I'm swimming in that you're able to see.
01:07:52.420
And God's spirit is able to nudge you just with reminders of like, hey, your circumstances
01:07:58.120
that I've, you know, the things that make no sense, that are confusing, that are hard
01:08:02.880
to reconcile with my nature, that make you want to pull away from me.
01:08:07.140
Like these are ever present opportunities to be reminded of, to personally, in the most
01:08:14.960
undesirable of ways, experience the truths and the realities that transcend our circumstances
01:08:25.380
And so that's certainly our hope and our prayer is whatever level of equipping and awareness
01:08:30.320
around like, oh yeah, I've maybe heard of stuff like that loosely.
01:08:35.060
I didn't realize how often it happens that now you can know if a friend or a loved one,
01:08:44.960
You know, if the doctor mentioned nothing about it, let them know we're out there and exist
01:08:50.740
And then, and then also just in that transcendent way that the principles and the things that
01:08:57.260
we can share about walking through Abel's life and walking alongside other people in
01:09:02.160
hardship and in the unknown is applicable with whatever, whatever it is that you're walking
01:09:08.640
And so know that, believe that he sees you, he cares for you.