Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - February 05, 2024


Ep 945 ｜ Churches： Beware of the 'After Party' Trojan Horse ｜ Guest： Megan Basham


Episode Stats

Length

54 minutes

Words per Minute

179.0925

Word Count

9,816

Sentence Count

562

Misogynist Sentences

5

Hate Speech Sentences

25


Summary

A new curriculum called After Party is being pushed onto churches, promising to bring Christians of different political backgrounds together and back to the fundamentals that Jesus taught. Unfortunately, this curriculum does not deliver on this promise and actually is funded by secular progressives. Here to uncover all of this and more is Megan Basham, a reporter for The Daily Wire.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 A new curriculum called After Party is being pushed onto churches, promising to bring Christians of different political backgrounds together and back to the fundamentals that Jesus taught.
00:00:16.940 Unfortunately, this curriculum does not deliver on this promise and actually is funded by secular progressives.
00:00:25.460 Here today to uncover all of this and more is Megan Basham. She is a reporter for The Daily Wire. Fascinating conversation. You are going to learn a lot from this. I know I did.
00:00:36.200 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to GoodRanchers.com. Use code Allie and check out this GoodRanchers.com code Allie.
00:00:41.900 Megan, thank you so much for joining us again. I really appreciate it.
00:00:57.180 Thank you. It's always good to be here.
00:00:59.100 Yes. OK, tell me about this. This is right up our this is right up our alley.
00:01:04.220 I know my audience is going to be really interested in learning about this.
00:01:07.520 Let's start with OK, what is the After Party? What is it? I bet most people listening to this have no idea what that is.
00:01:13.940 Right. And they might find out soon what it is.
00:01:16.600 So the After Party, it's a Bible study curriculum that was developed by Curtis Chang, who is a former pastor and a Duke Divinity consulting professor.
00:01:29.700 I believe he's done some work in Silicon Valley, but he really became known for the website Christians and the Vaccine.
00:01:36.600 So he was working in partnership with the federal government to sort of spread the message that Christians needed to not be afraid of the COVID vaccine, needed to get vaccinated.
00:01:47.120 And he had a fairly viral video that went out that said if you were concerned about it being derived from aborted cells at one point, you know, way back in its history, you should look at it as the as like an image of Jesus's redemption of sinners.
00:02:05.740 So the vaccine was a redemption of that sin.
00:02:09.160 It was very bizarre, but it kind of went viral.
00:02:11.560 And so he, in partnership with David French and Russell Moore, developed this Bible study called the After Party that is supposed to address political divisiveness and partisanship.
00:02:23.640 So, you know, at the outset, an interesting choice of three people, because I don't think when we think of David French, for instance, we necessarily think of someone who is carrying the message of turning down the tone of political divisiveness among Christians.
00:02:39.080 But leaving that aside for the moment, when the Bible study came out, it also came out right about the same time as an Atlantic writer, Tim Alberta's book, Warning About Christian Nationalism, came out.
00:02:53.040 And in that book, he mentioned interviewing Curtis Chang, and he said they were developing this Bible study curriculum to go into churches, but they could not get any evangelical backers.
00:03:05.540 They couldn't get any Christians who wanted to fund it.
00:03:08.020 So they had to turn to mostly progressive unbelievers, and it didn't offer any more information than that.
00:03:14.600 And, you know, Chang, Moore and French were very much sort of the hero of this little vignette in the book.
00:03:20.360 Well, you know, naturally, your reporterly spidey senses go off and go, well, wait a minute, who are these secular backers who are funding a Bible study about politics that's going to be going into evangelical churches?
00:03:33.980 So I did some digging, and the first thing that I found was that they were part of a big grant funding round from Rockefeller Philanthropy Advisors, which, if you're not familiar, is a very secular left foundation.
00:03:50.360 They have given, yeah, big, big dollars, $100 million to an initiative to help transgender youth, LGBTQ, queer youth, as they put it, get gender-affirming care.
00:04:06.460 They are funders of abortion initiatives and things of this nature.
00:04:11.700 And that goes way back.
00:04:12.600 Like, the Rockefellers, I know that the Rockefeller name is sometimes the center of a lot of conspiracy theories, but the truth, the verifiable truth is that this family has been a funder of progressive causes like Planned Parenthood, like abortion initiatives, like you said, for a very, very long time.
00:04:31.780 So the fact that they're funding, helping to fund a Bible study should raise all the red flags.
00:04:38.860 Right.
00:04:39.640 And, you know, just to flesh that out even a little bit more, you know, even in this grant funding round, there were other initiatives that were for things like promoting LGBTQ rural leadership, supporting a group who's looking to keep fossil fuel resources.
00:05:01.460 In the ground on behalf of climate justice.
00:05:04.540 So even in just this one grant funding round, it had a lot of other secular left projects that it was funding in the same round as the after party.
00:05:14.000 And when I reached out to the after party and asked them about this, you know, they said, well, we're going to update our website to be more transparent about our funding.
00:05:22.200 And they also happened to reveal at that point that another of their big backers is the Hewlett Foundation, which is, of course, the second largest funder of Planned Parenthood.
00:05:32.300 So these are not great partners to have.
00:05:34.860 Um, yeah, and, you know, so then from there, I go to the website, I look at, OK, who are there?
00:05:41.900 This is who their financial backers are, but who are they partnering with to sort of get the word out about this curriculum to help support it, maybe just through using social media spheres of influence.
00:05:55.400 And one of their, you know, what they say is one of our partners is a group called One America Movement, which is itself.
00:06:03.060 It builds itself as an ecumenical group, meaning people of different religious faiths coming together to address political divisiveness.
00:06:09.620 But you go on their board and you see that one of their board members is a woman at an LGBTQ affirming synagogue.
00:06:17.720 Um, another one is a man who founded Black Lives Matter in New York, and he has defended rioting as a self-defense and he has called Jesus a black radical revolutionary.
00:06:32.020 OK, so, yeah.
00:06:33.960 So these are the partners that After Party is working with.
00:06:37.800 Um, and, you know, when I saw that, I went, this should be a major red flag for Christian churches that are bringing this in.
00:06:47.080 And I can tell you that just last weekend, um, there was a major pastors conference, very mainstream evangelical pastors conference at a big church in Mesa.
00:06:56.480 And they were hosting Curtis Chang and Russell Moore to speak on this topic of, um, political divisiveness in the church.
00:07:04.400 And, um, I heard from a president of a small Christian college who is a member of the, um, CCCU, which is the, I always stumble on their acronym, but the council for Christian colleges and universities.
00:07:18.820 Um, and he said, they also sent out an email saying, this curriculum is coming.
00:07:24.160 We encourage you to bring it onto your campuses and your student life ministries or, um, in your pastoral classes.
00:07:30.500 So that is a really concerning issue that, you know, they're pushing this everywhere.
00:07:35.820 Um, and these are the people who want to make sure that it's getting into your churches and your Christian colleges.
00:07:41.240 Hmm. Wow. Okay. So what do you think? I know that we can't read hearts and minds. And so if you don't want to answer this question, that's fine. But just based on what you know, you've probably watched more closely than anyone, the evolution of people like David French and Russell Moore.
00:07:56.960 Like what would be the motivations of people like this who profess to be conservative Christians? And I'm not, you know, I'm not doubting their salvation. Um, but why would they want to partner with not just, okay, we're not just talking about secular forces or secular entities, but we are talking about entities that are, and have been for a very long time, diametrically, diametrically opposed to Christ, diametrically opposed to Christian values who are funding things, um, like abortion.
00:08:26.960 Uh, like practices and organizations that conservative Christians have been fighting against for years. Like, I, I don't really understand why do Russell Moore and David French want to partner with people like this who, you know, have set themselves as enemies against the cross of Christ for so long.
00:08:48.040 And like you said, I can't read their hearts, but I can see sort of what the trajectory has been. And if you look at someone like David French, for example, um, most people outside of a very niche conservative Christian audience wouldn't really have known who he was a few months ago, or excuse me, a few years ago. Um, but since he became a very prominent Trump critic, there has been a, I will say a lot of rewards within the secular media.
00:09:13.960 He is now, um, a columnist at the New York times, which is, you know, about the pinnacle of secular media, uh, career. That's about as high as you can get. So, um, and you look at that and they're also being given, um, very prestigious, uh, fellowships. Um, they're working with Trinity forum now. And, you know, that was another element of this that I didn't get into, but one of their other partners is Trinity forum.
00:09:35.300 Um, and for this curriculum that is supposed to be about how to move beyond partisan politics. Well, Trinity forum is participating with never Trump political action committees. So these are things that are very political. Um, and I think that that is probably part of it too. I mean, there's a certain irony in saying we are going to promote this, um, curriculum about how to not be political.
00:09:59.300 When I think you can say that David French and Russell Moore and Curtis Chang, though, he's a little less known are some of the most political voices in evangelicalism. Um, if you look at David or excuse me, Russell Moore in particular, he was very out front in pushing, um, amnesty immigration bills and bills that a lot of conservatives did not like. Uh, so I think that that can be part of it is I think you can say there's probably some political motivation there in that they don't particularly
00:10:29.280 like the candidate who has come to dominate Republican politics. And I can understand that, but they've been very outspoken in saying that there was, um, a compromise of principle among Christians that they did vote for this candidate, um, that they did back this candidate. So I think there may be a certain element of saying we have to be right here and to be right. All of those other people have to be wrong. Right. Even though that choice that they made did result in the Dobbs decision. Right. Um, and
00:10:59.280 So I, I think you can see people just over a trajectory. They just sort of start to dig in because I am not going to admit that maybe I did not have full perspective on, um, what was motivating some other people to make their political choices.
00:11:12.280 So let me try to, um, in the best way that I can articulate what I think they would say they are doing and what they would say after party is about the, and the reason why I think it's important to do this is because when this curriculum
00:11:40.640 is presented at your church is presented at your church, you are going to hear it in the most unifying and innocuous terms possible. So I think it's important for us to recognize what that message will be and then what is actually lying behind it, which is what you articulated.
00:11:55.640 What they are probably saying is that, um, God is neither Republican nor Democrat. And the church does not need to be endlessly divided by the issues of race, the issues of immigration, the issues of abortion, the issues of the vaccine.
00:12:11.640 We need to go back to remembering what is fundamental, what holds us together. And we don't need to be idolizing politicians or any kind of political partisan position, but we need to go back to just following biblical principles.
00:12:26.640 We need to keep the principles. We need to keep the first thing, the first thing, and we need to unite races. We need to unite ethnicities and nationalities and people of all different backgrounds to ensure that we are advancing God's kingdom first and foremost. And unfortunately there has been this scary idolatry of Donald Trump. They might not even say Donald Trump. They would probably just say, you know, a politician or whatever, um, among white evangelicals.
00:12:52.500 And there has been a scary rise of nationalism and a scary rise of isolationism that we really need to guard ourselves against because, you know, our citizenship is in heaven. That's what we'll hear. Our citizenship is in heaven. It's, it's not America first. America first is an unbiblical position, whether you're looking at immigration or foreign conflict or whatever, that's kind of how they present it.
00:13:15.280 And you could see how someone who's maybe not very politically savvy or someone who has kind of imbibed this holistically pro-life, and I use scare quotes there, mentality of, okay, to really be pro-life, you have to be like for, you know, all welfare and open borders and against the death penalty and all these things.
00:13:37.140 You could see how that is appealing, how someone who is tired of partisan politics would hear that message and say, oh, that sounds like a relief. That sounds great. I don't want to be involved in partisan politics. I'm sick of the news cycle. So that's how it's being presented. Right. Um, right.
00:13:54.540 But tell us like, what's, what's really going on? Like what is actually the curriculum?
00:14:00.680 Okay. Yeah. So I watched through, um, all of this curriculum and, you know, as I told my husband about 80% of it is what you just described, just this sort of pablum of let's not be divisive. This is exhausting. Our kingdom, uh, our, our citizenship is in the kingdom of heaven. Yes, those things are true. Um, but we also by God's grace have been allowed to be citizens of a representative
00:14:24.540 republic. And that comes with certain responsibilities to see to the health of the republic. That is part of our job as citizens to, um, to vote, to use our speech in responsible ways that benefit our republic and benefit our states and our communities, um, to freely associate in those same ways for, um, issues that we think are really important, like protecting the lives of innocent people like the unborn. So, uh, you know, it was really interesting as you watch through the curriculum, it was very, very shallow.
00:14:54.380 It did not deal with any of that. It did not deal with, um, verses like, uh, render unto Caesar. What is Caesar's? Well, I would argue that, you know, our, our political responsibilities, you might say are Caesar's. And that is something that we as Christians steward for the good of our neighbor and our children and our country. And it didn't get into that at all. It also didn't get into those verses about, you know, working for the good of the place that you live. Um, and so really there was so little Bible.
00:15:22.260 And that was really shocking to me that I went there for a Bible study. There is just no Bible here. There's just kind of this sloganeering. Um, and one of the most interesting points of the series that came up to me was when they kept emphasizing David French in this one segment in particular said, you have to have humility when you approach complex issues. If anyone tells you that they know how to solve an issue,
00:15:47.260 you need to be on your guard. And as he was saying that there was someone holding up a pro-life sign in the background. So it seemed like a very clear message that if you think you have a clear response to a complex issue like abortion, then you need to be on your guard against that person.
00:16:05.080 Well, some issues are complex and Christians can have different views, but not on abortion. I mean, thou shalt not murder. It is not really that complex.
00:16:14.460 It's not nuanced. Yeah.
00:16:16.200 Right. That is not nuanced. And I think that that is a strategy to say, gosh, everything's complex and we're, you can't be sure you have to show humility. Well, to show humility about something that God is very clear on,
00:16:31.200 we're not to be humble on God's behalf. I mean, we may need to be humble on, you know, our approach and how we talk to our neighbors, but when it comes to the truth,
00:16:39.540 we don't have to be humble about knowing what the truth is. And we certainly know that that's a life. And we certainly know that we should act in defense of that life.
00:16:49.220 Yeah. Um, so that is one of the clear things to me was that, you know, I was really troubled by how much they continually return to that look, be humble.
00:16:56.340 You don't know. You could be wrong. And, um, and then on the flip side, you know, they did God really say, Megan, did God really say, why don't you have some humility, Eve?
00:17:08.680 Why don't you have some humility? If you're telling me that you really know what God said, Eve, why don't you have some humility?
00:17:15.760 Right. And let me tell you what God really meant because really God's commands, Megan, they were just so nuanced.
00:17:22.340 Yeah. He might have said very hard to decipher. I mean, literally this is a satanic message. You think, you know, what God said about murder. You think, you know, what God said about life inside the womb. Did God really say? Wow.
00:17:37.080 Well, and what's odd to me is it's coming from people who have been so very certain on things that truly were, um, issues of conscience where Christians might differ like the vaccine, like, you know, COVID mandates and lockdowns.
00:17:50.540 I mean, I kind of want to remind people that David French said Christians who were not willing to get vaccinated for a lot of really good reasons. Maybe you were a woman of childbearing age. Maybe you were trying to get pregnant.
00:18:02.860 Maybe you just wanted to sit back and see like, gosh, you know, this is something new. I just don't feel comfortable in my spirit about this.
00:18:08.040 They accused you of not caring for your neighbors, not loving your neighbors, being willing to see your neighbor die if you didn't want to get this vaccine or you didn't want to not go to church.
00:18:19.960 Um, so, you know, that was an interesting element of this to see confusion on something that is extremely clear where they have taken very hard line positions on things that should have been matters of conscience.
00:18:32.380 Um, and, and that goes for Curtis Chang as well, who again, had this website that was dedicated to Christians on the vaccine, um, telling you to get that.
00:18:41.200 And, you know, there've been other elements with Curtis Chang, who I think it should be known that is a Democrat.
00:18:46.600 He has done things like, you know, encouraged Christians who lived in California, don't vote to recall Governor Gavin Newsom when that recall vote was up.
00:18:55.800 I mean, that, that was a public post that he was saying, you know, here's reasons you shouldn't do that.
00:19:00.560 Um, and he, you know, and, and smearing the church, I will say publicly saying that we own, we, the church own what happened on January 6th.
00:19:10.640 Oh, yes.
00:19:11.200 Something I categorically reject.
00:19:12.800 It's that you've talked about that he blames the American church for January 6th.
00:19:17.380 What in the world?
00:19:19.260 Right.
00:19:19.720 And that is the kind of thing.
00:19:21.140 And I would say that you saw that same language from, um, more and French, this idea that because there are some fringe people who claim the name of Christian doing fringy things, this is somehow an indictment of the entire, um, evangelical Christian church in America.
00:19:39.580 And, you know, I categorically reject that, that you're always going to have fringe groups doing some fringe things.
00:19:45.100 And, and the church is not to blame for that.
00:19:48.800 Um, now we may want to minister to those people.
00:19:51.040 We may want to speak out on it, but the church doesn't own that.
00:19:54.220 Yeah.
00:19:55.040 And, you know, maybe the church is never to blame.
00:19:57.540 The church is only to blame when people on the right do something bad.
00:20:01.180 The church is never to blame when people on the left do something bad.
00:20:04.280 Of course, he's not going to call out the quote unquote black church for BLM riots.
00:20:09.700 Um, he's just going to call out the white church as it were, because of, you know, for, for January 6th.
00:20:16.480 Um, so it's, it's just a shrouded way to try to condemn people on the right.
00:20:22.940 It's just what it is.
00:20:23.780 And that's personally what I think that this curriculum is now.
00:20:26.640 I haven't gone through it and I'm not saying, and I don't hear you say that every half.
00:20:30.700 So, yes, yes.
00:20:32.400 So I, I don't think that you're saying that everything they say is objectively wrong or
00:20:36.820 everything that they say is untrue.
00:20:38.820 Maybe there are some things in there that are helpful to me.
00:20:41.960 What I've read and what I'm hearing you say is that it is a shrouded attempt to basically say,
00:20:47.500 Christians do not stand up for what you believe in.
00:20:51.480 If, um, by doing so you are representing what is considered a politically conservative position.
00:20:58.020 If you stand on the side of life, if you stand for strong borders or whatever, you need to
00:21:03.040 have humility, which means you need to be so confused about your position that you're
00:21:08.240 not actually confident enough to say, I see that all the time among Christian women, by
00:21:11.880 the way, it's not just the empathy shaming that we receive.
00:21:15.500 It's also the humility shaming.
00:21:17.440 And if you would just be humble, what they really mean is if you just be humble, you would
00:21:22.340 agree with me.
00:21:23.080 If you would just be humble, you would be pro-choice.
00:21:25.200 If you would just be humble, you would see that razor wire is not okay on the border.
00:21:30.240 If you would just be humble, you would see that you shouldn't vote Republican.
00:21:34.240 When, well, what about their pride?
00:21:36.480 What about their pride in assuming that if we had humility, we would just agree with
00:21:41.180 them?
00:21:41.840 I don't know.
00:21:42.360 It just doesn't seem to go both ways.
00:21:44.740 Yeah, absolutely.
00:21:45.680 And, and, you know, it was interesting because there is a moment in the curriculum where you
00:21:49.000 brought up the black church and it was taken for granted that one of the issues that, you
00:21:53.860 know, Christians have to be working on.
00:21:55.120 And, and this was stated as fact is the, um, systemically unjust system that represses
00:22:01.340 black people in the United States.
00:22:03.200 Now it's, it's in the second, either the last or the second to last episode, um, of this
00:22:07.480 series.
00:22:07.760 And I went, okay, so there are some issues that you think are clear and that's one of
00:22:12.920 them, uh, which again, I would say, look, we could all look at the facts and the data
00:22:16.980 of, you know, what has happened in, uh, police departments across the country and look at
00:22:21.760 differing reasons why, you know, differing demographics might have different levels of
00:22:26.820 success in different areas.
00:22:27.940 And there is, that is complex.
00:22:29.780 It's incredibly complex when you look at, um, the history of, you know, federal programs
00:22:34.800 that, um, disincentivize marriage in certain communities and things like that.
00:22:39.480 So, um, that was really just interesting to me that that was a point at which they went
00:22:43.880 this thing, however, is clear.
00:22:45.580 And, you know, ultimately I go, there was very little Bible in this.
00:22:49.620 I mean, maybe a couple of mentions of a few verses, but I mean, this was not a Bible study
00:22:54.600 at all.
00:22:55.640 Um, and then the other thing being that the people leading it, you have three.
00:22:59.860 Guys, if you were really trying to go, let's look at the arc of, um, divisiveness and
00:23:04.300 evangelicalism, why don't you bring in say, um, a David French, but also, uh, Dr. Albert
00:23:10.820 Mohler, you know, people who really represent a range of views to talk, wrestle with these
00:23:16.140 issues.
00:23:16.440 And that was very much not what they did.
00:23:17.840 They brought in three like-minded people, um, to tell you why you should, you should be
00:23:23.660 more humble about the issues they think you should be humble about.
00:23:26.920 Yeah.
00:23:27.120 And it's just so telling to me who funds it that, I mean, I think really the biggest
00:23:32.220 impediment to America being fully progressive is the evangelical Christian.
00:23:38.280 It just is.
00:23:39.220 We just are the most conservative on most issues.
00:23:43.420 And so if you can convince that group, which is really kind of like the last obstacle there
00:23:49.560 that sure, you can believe the things that you believe as long as you don't say it, as
00:23:55.020 long as you don't act on it, as long as you don't vote on it.
00:23:57.780 Meanwhile, you're telling everyone else that all the progressives that in order to be a
00:24:04.180 good person, or even in order to be a good Christian, you do have to act upon your progressive
00:24:09.140 worldview.
00:24:09.880 You do have to be a left-wing activist.
00:24:11.980 You do have to take it as fact that America is systemically racist.
00:24:15.220 One of the verses that I guess they mentioned, so classic, Micah 6, 8, seek justice, love
00:24:22.100 mercy, which is one of the most misused verses because they say that, but then they define
00:24:28.240 justice as the world defines justice, which is social justice, which is not biblical justice
00:24:32.080 at all.
00:24:32.880 And so I'm guessing that they take no time to actually define those things as God defines
00:24:38.300 them.
00:24:38.540 Actually, that was an interesting point, and I jotted it down as soon as I heard it
00:24:42.720 was, you know, Curtis Chang said that we work for justice, as Micah tells us, and working
00:24:49.180 for justice is to make sure that everybody gets what is fair and what they need.
00:24:53.880 And I went, that is not justice.
00:24:56.100 That is not the definition of justice.
00:24:58.740 The definition of justice accords with God's law.
00:25:02.400 The Lord tells us in scripture what justice looks like in his law.
00:25:06.500 It is not making sure that everyone is getting what they need, which is a very, you know,
00:25:11.060 amorphous definition that could mean anything to any person.
00:25:14.380 We know where justice is and where we find the definition of justice.
00:25:17.800 And I did find it pretty fascinating that even though this Bible study curriculum is not
00:25:23.020 supposed to be about partisanship, it's not supposed to tell you how to vote, what to
00:25:30.520 vote for, but how you should approach it.
00:25:32.600 They, when Rockefeller noted the funding, they said, it's going to be unrolling in the
00:25:37.460 battleground.
00:25:38.100 And they use that word battleground of Ohio.
00:25:41.480 And none of these people, Curtis Chang, David French, or Russell Moore live in Ohio.
00:25:46.880 So that was interesting.
00:25:48.020 It's going to be free through 2024.
00:25:49.740 And then, you know, the big issue, when you look at it, you go in part of the Bible study,
00:25:55.120 they say, really what Jesus wants for you when you approach politics is, yes, you think
00:26:01.780 about personal relationships, but the relational approach and how you approach it relationally
00:26:08.260 is what you should prioritize, not policies.
00:26:12.160 And I went, that's what politics is policy.
00:26:15.440 Politics is setting policy by definition.
00:26:18.200 So I don't know what that would mean to say, I'm going to approach politics relationally
00:26:24.160 and not with an eye toward policy.
00:26:27.020 What?
00:26:28.220 Yeah, I couldn't make sense of that.
00:26:30.140 And so if you follow me on Twitter, I posted a screenshot of it and I went, I am trying to
00:26:34.820 make sense of what this means because that's what politics is, setting policy.
00:26:39.320 And what we often say, politics matter because policy matters, because people matter, because
00:26:44.080 politics affects policy, policy affects people, and people matter.
00:26:46.980 That is, as you mentioned earlier, politics is not, it's not the number one way to love
00:26:51.480 our neighbor, but it's a way to love our neighbor.
00:26:54.440 And we should be advocating for the policies that align most with our biblical worldview,
00:27:00.960 because we believe that God's ways are better.
00:27:03.040 That's not the same thing as scary Christian nationalism, depending on how you define it,
00:27:07.140 or scary theocratic fascism.
00:27:08.900 It's not forcing people to believe what we believe.
00:27:10.860 But we do believe that Christians are called to do what everyone in a representative democracy
00:27:15.520 is doing, which is vote in accordance with your worldview.
00:27:18.720 But this curriculum, like so many other of these Christian, nuanced, nonpartisan organizations,
00:27:26.740 they are encouraging Christian conservatives to be the only ones to check our worldview at
00:27:32.400 the door.
00:27:33.200 We are the only ones that have to compartmentalize our faith, compartmentalize our beliefs before
00:27:37.960 we vote.
00:27:38.780 We have some Christian obligation, apparently, to vote in a way that opposes what we believe.
00:27:43.980 While everyone else is allowed to influence curriculum, corporate policy, legislation based
00:27:51.220 on their moral worldview, Christian conservatives can't.
00:27:55.480 I think that's what this curriculum is.
00:27:57.700 It's convincing Christian conservatives that you have to vote in a way that actually opposes
00:28:02.080 your moral worldview.
00:28:04.240 But everyone else doesn't have to do that.
00:28:06.440 Yeah, I mean, that was essentially what I took away from that was that you should be
00:28:11.260 somewhat quiet.
00:28:13.220 And I don't know if they would have used the word ashamed, but that was how I came away
00:28:17.400 from, you know, from it going, gosh, you should, you know, just be very gentle in how
00:28:22.480 you present your your opinions and your worldview.
00:28:25.740 And, you know, to a certain degree, you go, well, yeah, you don't you don't want to be a
00:28:28.920 jerk.
00:28:29.200 You don't want to be aggressive.
00:28:30.060 But I think you can be confident because confidence is persuasive.
00:28:33.280 Confidence often gets you a hearing in a world that seems very confused and doesn't know where
00:28:40.240 they're going, what they're doing, what the answers to life are.
00:28:43.140 So I think this constant counseling to not be confident is designed to do exactly what
00:28:49.600 you're saying, which is mute and suppress the Christian influence on our culture.
00:28:53.880 And I think we need to know that our influence, whether they know it or not, for our unbelieving
00:29:01.620 neighbor is good for them as well, that it brings prosperity.
00:29:05.720 It brings it it brings well-being to communities, to nations.
00:29:11.580 And when you look at that, you go, that is a really important thing to think about is that
00:29:15.840 you are doing good by ensuring that good policies are enacted.
00:29:19.220 And, you know, when I look at this, I try to wrap my head around what they're thinking
00:29:24.740 here.
00:29:25.140 And I really do have trouble with it, because if they had not given sucker to something like
00:29:33.660 Black Lives Matter, how many, say, communities of color were burned and destroyed?
00:29:38.360 That wasn't good for our neighbor.
00:29:40.460 That wasn't good for other communities.
00:29:42.760 And it would have been better if we had not been so humble about not speaking out against
00:29:47.820 that when it started.
00:29:49.320 Yeah.
00:29:50.020 Ironically, this what I believe to be a lie that America is systemically racist and that
00:29:54.920 all disparities are the evidence of discrimination.
00:29:58.940 That is a very divisive lie that divides the church to this day, unfortunately.
00:30:06.500 And so, again, it's like, OK, you're not supposed to be political unless you agree with our
00:30:11.960 politics.
00:30:13.140 You can't advocate for a justice outside of social justice.
00:30:16.880 You can't advocate for policies that are outside of what these people think are acceptable,
00:30:23.240 which is you can kind of be, I think the most that they would accept is Christlike, is like
00:30:28.560 center right.
00:30:30.020 But beyond that is scary and divisive and whatever.
00:30:41.960 The ANN campaign, do they, are they involved in this?
00:30:50.960 Yeah.
00:30:51.620 So it was funny afterwards, you know, the ANN campaign came out and Justin Giboney did an
00:30:56.720 interview where he said, I don't know if they're directly involved, but he certainly took me
00:31:01.240 to task and said, and I thought this was an interesting admission.
00:31:04.740 Hey, this isn't OK to tag them just because they're being funded by these hard left secular
00:31:11.020 organizations, because so are we.
00:31:13.940 What?
00:31:14.620 I went, OK, yeah.
00:31:16.740 So he just gave an interview where he said, yes, we are also funded by Rockefeller.
00:31:20.360 So I did not know that and I thought, Megan, I did not know this.
00:31:25.640 OK, sorry, it just came out.
00:31:27.920 I need you to speak slowly and I need you to say all of this again and how you know this.
00:31:34.240 The ANN campaign is funded by the Rockefellers.
00:31:38.040 Yes.
00:31:38.640 So so Justin Giboney.
00:31:41.220 Yes, I've had him on his.
00:31:43.080 Yes.
00:31:43.560 On his podcast episode, he was taking me to task for this piece where I revealed the funding
00:31:49.500 of the after party curriculum.
00:31:52.040 And he said, you know, we also are funded by Rockefeller and groups like this.
00:31:58.380 And, you know, that's OK, because they want to see a, you know, a simmering down of divisive
00:32:05.420 politics in the U.S.
00:32:07.400 So that's part of why they also fund us.
00:32:10.540 So I thought that was a really surprising admission and which now that you're and it's
00:32:17.280 funny because when I heard it, I went, oh, that makes sense.
00:32:19.540 I guess after I had been marinating in and campaign stuff, you know, knowing that Justin
00:32:24.380 is, you know, a Democrat operative, he is.
00:32:29.080 That's his background.
00:32:30.560 And that that wasn't really that surprising to me, having, you know, just come out of doing
00:32:35.040 so much research into the and campaign.
00:32:37.140 Um, so, yeah, I and I haven't looked into it anymore other than that.
00:32:41.940 So that's really all I can tell you is that, you know, people started sending me, hey, Justin
00:32:45.880 Gibbon, he talked about your first things piece and here's what he had to say about
00:32:49.720 it.
00:32:50.120 So I went and listened to it.
00:32:51.640 And that's really all the information I can give you is that he said us, too.
00:32:56.180 We are also funded by these groups.
00:32:58.480 Oh, my goodness gracious.
00:33:00.800 Well, that is very interesting.
00:33:03.160 Now, I've had my, um, you know, I've had my issues with the and campaign basically for
00:33:07.020 the same reason.
00:33:08.820 I'm not saying that I disagree with everything that's said and I can't impugn any motives.
00:33:13.380 But I mean, Justin's been open about the fact that he's a Democrat and all of the organizers
00:33:17.620 of the and campaign are Democrats.
00:33:20.140 I don't know if they've ever voted Republican, but they are Democrats.
00:33:23.220 And the feeling that I get, whether they intend to do this or not, um, is that, uh, thoughtful
00:33:29.960 Christians, real thoughtful Christians won't vote Republican.
00:33:34.120 Now, maybe if you're moderate, maybe if you're kind of a centrist, but that it is wrong to
00:33:41.420 be like a staunch conservative, that that is divisive, that that's idolatry.
00:33:47.360 Um, and maybe he would disagree with that characterization.
00:33:50.660 I think the purpose, either explicitly or implicitly, is to convince Christian conservatives that you and you
00:33:58.160 alone should not vote your conscience and to make you feel better about voting Democrat.
00:34:03.760 After all, it's nuanced.
00:34:05.140 And what you get is kind of like this morally relative argument that, well, yeah, Republicans
00:34:10.680 might kind of get it right on abortion.
00:34:12.800 They might kind of get it right on some things.
00:34:15.120 But then, well, Democrats get it more right on immigration or Democrats get it more right
00:34:20.440 on racial justice or Democrats get it more right on welfare.
00:34:24.120 And so it's really just like six in one hand and half dozen in the other.
00:34:28.240 Which I completely disagree with that.
00:34:30.280 I don't believe that Democrats get it right on any of those things, by the way.
00:34:33.820 Right.
00:34:34.360 And yeah, it's OK to say, well, abortion is a bigger deal.
00:34:38.540 Like taking kids from their parents' homes because they're gender confused is a bigger deal
00:34:44.220 to me than this stuff over here.
00:34:46.220 It's like OK to say that we don't have to pretend to be moral relativists.
00:34:51.120 Yeah, that was going to be my point, is that they want to make a moral equivalency between
00:34:55.780 these issues that are not morally equivalent.
00:34:58.480 And, you know, part of what was really interesting to me as I was going through this curriculum
00:35:01.900 was that they never got into what I would say are very biblical explanations for why people
00:35:09.060 sometimes back certain policies that are wicked, like abortion, like wanting to trans children
00:35:15.320 or wanting to, you know, back gay marriage.
00:35:17.980 The reason that the Bible tells us, for example, in Romans one, that people want to pursue policies
00:35:24.620 like that is because they want to indulge sexual immorality and their minds are being deceived.
00:35:30.240 And so there is a sinful motivation to want to see policies like that enacted for abortion.
00:35:37.080 I mean, you know, child sacrifice is something that we see all throughout Scripture, and
00:35:41.160 it is never something that is soft peddled.
00:35:43.440 And today our God is convenience or career or, you know, self-actualization or however
00:35:49.200 you want to phrase that.
00:35:51.100 It is the God of self.
00:35:52.720 It is sacrificing to your selfishness.
00:35:55.580 And so at no point in this curriculum did they consider the sinful heart that might lead
00:36:01.560 people to back sinful, wicked policies.
00:36:04.360 And I thought, if you are not going to confront that, then I don't think you have any sort
00:36:08.400 of Bible study curriculum that is really grounded in God's Word that understands the depravity
00:36:14.320 of man and how that depravity leads us to pursue things that are really harmful to our neighbors
00:36:19.540 and harmful to us.
00:36:21.120 Yeah.
00:36:21.740 Yeah, I agree.
00:36:23.200 And, you know, some people would accuse us of saying, well, you have to vote Republican
00:36:28.960 in order to be a Christian.
00:36:31.120 And I'm not saying that God is checking your voting records before you get into heaven.
00:36:36.560 I'm not saying that.
00:36:38.560 I'm not saying that.
00:36:39.860 I am saying that we should vote in accordance with our conscience.
00:36:43.320 And I don't believe that the policies that the Democrat Party hoists up are policies that
00:36:50.580 Christians can, in good faith, vote for.
00:36:53.380 I'm not saying that there's not debate on any of those things.
00:36:56.200 I'm not saying that there's not discussion.
00:36:57.960 But I think it is wrong to tell conservative Christians, you have to be neutered in order
00:37:04.060 for us to thrive as a country.
00:37:05.900 You have to check your worldview at the door before you, you know, before you can engage
00:37:11.660 and before you can try to influence how society works.
00:37:15.640 I just I think that's wrong.
00:37:16.980 I think it's wicked.
00:37:18.960 Yeah, yeah.
00:37:19.840 And, you know, it's funny because I agree with you that I go, I am not judging anyone's
00:37:24.160 heart on their voting record.
00:37:25.360 But at the same time, I think if you as a Christian are backing, let's say, a set of
00:37:30.840 policies, because when you choose a candidate, you are choosing a set of policies.
00:37:34.240 And if the set of policies you are choosing is a platform that says we are full bore for
00:37:40.540 sexual immorality and gender confusion and murdering babies to sacrifice to the God of
00:37:47.340 convenience, I do think that, you know, certainly your discernment is off.
00:37:51.600 And I question your spiritual maturity.
00:37:54.260 You know, people want to get into the Trump issue a lot.
00:37:56.980 And when you read through Tim Alberta's book, which kicked this whole thing off, he is this
00:38:03.620 sort of reason d'etre for everything.
00:38:05.880 I mean, he is the ultimate for how we're deciding whether or not people are Christians.
00:38:09.800 And I go, if you're looking at that as a set of policies, which is how I tend to view politics,
00:38:14.160 you know, with at each stage of the political process, I am choosing what I think is the
00:38:18.540 best set of policies.
00:38:20.420 So if you are looking at that and you are saying and they really have that there is something
00:38:25.260 sick and diseased in the hearts of Christian Trump supporters, I would go where then what
00:38:33.860 sort of disease do you think is in your heart as a Christian or what lack of discernment,
00:38:39.960 what blind spots if you are choosing a set of policies that is diametrically opposed to
00:38:45.720 God's law, which is not to say that, you know, Republicans are great.
00:38:49.760 And because to me, they are very deficient in many ways.
00:38:54.000 Yeah, totally.
00:38:55.960 And I go, but it's not because they're too conservative, efficient.
00:38:59.780 Right.
00:39:00.800 And so I go, I have to choose the less deficient option.
00:39:03.520 So I choose that option.
00:39:05.120 But if it were up to me, I mean, it is it is very frustrating to me to be in a party that
00:39:09.600 seems to be willing now to say, well, we lost on Obergefell.
00:39:13.040 Everybody move forward because I don't want to move forward on that issue.
00:39:16.420 I would love a party that would say, no, that is damaging for children.
00:39:21.080 It is opposed to God's law.
00:39:22.940 It is, you know, it is a sign that our nation is under judgment when we are enshrining things
00:39:28.440 like this into law.
00:39:29.420 So, you know, I would love to be a party that would recognize that.
00:39:33.380 But we don't have that.
00:39:34.620 So I choose the best thing that I can.
00:39:36.140 So it's certainly not to say, you know, the GOP and the church are the same thing.
00:39:40.760 They are certainly not.
00:39:42.000 Um, but, you know, but looking at a sinful world and a really, um, disappointing set of
00:39:50.480 options, I will say, sometimes I try to pick the very best one that I can.
00:39:53.880 Yeah.
00:39:54.200 Yeah.
00:39:54.580 And I think that's what we all have to do.
00:39:56.180 Here, let me give people like an example of kind of what this looks like in real life.
00:40:13.200 You were a part actually of this dialogue.
00:40:14.860 This was back in June.
00:40:15.820 My researcher included it in my notes.
00:40:17.700 I wouldn't have even remembered that this happened.
00:40:20.020 But here's kind of what we're talking about in Christian conservatives kind of getting
00:40:24.080 lambasted by these so-called like nonpartisan people for saying something very strongly about
00:40:29.940 abortion.
00:40:30.520 So this was on June 24th.
00:40:33.400 Barack Obama tweeted, it's been a year since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v.
00:40:37.000 Wade.
00:40:37.280 Since then, 14 states have banned most abortions, leaving millions of women and girls with nowhere
00:40:42.140 to turn for the care they need.
00:40:44.040 And yet there are reasons to hope.
00:40:47.220 So and then he goes on to say that after Roe was overturned, there were other states that
00:40:52.660 helped enshrine abortion rights in their constitution.
00:40:55.300 So if we look past the euphemisms here, we know what he is saying when he says care they
00:41:01.020 need and things like that right to choose.
00:41:03.220 He is talking about the slaughter of image bearers.
00:41:06.220 Wow.
00:41:06.560 We're talking about child sacrifice.
00:41:08.220 We're talking about the most one.
00:41:10.160 I mean, all murder is grotesque.
00:41:12.120 But when you think about what abortion is, the killing of helpless babies.
00:41:16.060 Oh, my goodness.
00:41:17.220 Like that should break all of our hearts.
00:41:18.960 We should never get so cynical in politics that we forget what abortion is and what is
00:41:23.420 being talked about.
00:41:24.420 So I responded to Barack Obama and I said something that I think all Christians should
00:41:29.860 see as non-controversial and non-political, by the way.
00:41:32.760 It's not even political for the Christian.
00:41:34.840 I said evil man, evil ideology, evil party.
00:41:37.760 Christians have no excuse to ever support these people.
00:41:39.540 There is no both sides argument.
00:41:41.580 I mean, that is where I stand.
00:41:43.260 Even if you are a single issue voter, which I think it's fine to be, like abortion is
00:41:50.500 that grotesque.
00:41:51.400 So Justin Gibney of the AND campaign, he responds, in other words, he is saying what I say, which
00:41:56.960 I think that everyone should just like mute that phrase.
00:41:59.540 In other words, because you know that what is about to follow that is someone who just
00:42:03.300 completely misrepresents what you say.
00:42:06.860 But he says, in other words, we get abortion partially right.
00:42:09.200 So you must agree with us on everything.
00:42:11.080 When our leaders show a lack of concern, he's talking about Republican leaders, show a lack
00:42:14.200 of concern for the lives of immigrants, black men killed by authorities, pregnant black women,
00:42:19.400 the uninsured poor, and create laws to make it harder to vote.
00:42:22.540 Oh my goodness.
00:42:23.100 Like the number of logical fallacies in one tweet alone is just insane.
00:42:26.700 I don't agree with that representation of Republicans at all or the issues at hand.
00:42:30.320 He goes to say, thou shall not vote Republican is not in the Bible.
00:42:35.260 I voted for both parties.
00:42:36.320 OK, so he has voted for both parties.
00:42:38.040 He has plenty of criticisms of Democrats, he says.
00:42:40.600 But this narrative is wrong.
00:42:41.740 It's extremely disrespectful to millions of faithful black Christians.
00:42:45.600 Interesting.
00:42:46.880 And then Ben Watson, Ben Watson says.
00:42:51.060 Oh, this is I'm remembering now.
00:42:52.800 Yes.
00:42:53.240 Ben Watson says this is not the first time he and I have gotten into it on Twitter.
00:42:56.600 He says the type of Christianity she espouses includes voting records for membership.
00:43:02.900 Never said anything close to that.
00:43:05.060 In her world, my world, she creates the standards for how Christians are to behave.
00:43:10.460 What?
00:43:10.860 Yeah, I think abortion is evil.
00:43:12.860 So do you, by the way, Ben Watson.
00:43:14.720 That's a dangerous role to assume.
00:43:16.500 She is creating addendums to orthodoxy and tampering with idolatry.
00:43:20.860 Like, let us remember that I said the ideology and the party that advocates for the slaughter
00:43:26.500 of human beings is evil.
00:43:28.180 And that is idolatrous.
00:43:29.700 It's idolatrous when a Christian conservative talks strongly about things.
00:43:34.260 And you come to my defense and you say that is evil.
00:43:37.180 So this is kind of what I'm talking about here.
00:43:39.380 I had a big contribution there.
00:43:41.760 Yes.
00:43:42.040 No, you did.
00:43:42.720 So I appreciate that.
00:43:43.620 So anyway, I don't know if you have any commentary on that, but that's just an example
00:43:46.960 of kind of like how the dialogue goes when it comes to conservative Christians saying
00:43:51.100 things strongly about that, which we would call evil.
00:43:55.280 Yeah.
00:43:55.780 I mean, largely what I would see is that, again, you're making an equivalence between something
00:44:00.800 that is a debatable issue.
00:44:03.540 Are we a systemically racist society?
00:44:06.200 I would argue very much no.
00:44:09.060 Are our immigration policies that, you know, secure our borders, are these opposed to biblical
00:44:15.880 Christianity?
00:44:17.060 I would say, no, those are debatable issues.
00:44:20.120 Is it wrong to kill children?
00:44:23.240 Yes.
00:44:23.920 You know, that is not a debatable issue.
00:44:25.880 So it's this sort of little trick of saying, well, but what about this?
00:44:30.480 And it's saying that racism, yes, we all agree that racism is wrong.
00:44:35.080 We all agree that we don't want racism enshrined in our public policy.
00:44:40.700 Do I believe that we've done that?
00:44:42.280 That's the issue.
00:44:43.040 And so it's sort of skipping over that part of it, you know, begging the question, assuming
00:44:47.180 that racism is enshrined and then saying, well, why don't you condemn it?
00:44:51.360 And I'm like, well, I haven't already agreed that it is enshrined in our policy and that
00:44:56.440 our system is rife with racism.
00:44:58.460 So I have to agree on that before we can agree that I don't think it's important and I don't
00:45:03.880 think it's important to vote for policies that address it because I already don't see
00:45:08.600 it the way you see it.
00:45:10.080 Whereas with abortion, I don't see that level of complexity.
00:45:13.800 And it's sort of the same thing with gun control.
00:45:15.580 And you'll see them roll gun control into this pro-life argument saying, well, but you care
00:45:20.480 about the lives of children.
00:45:22.160 What about gun control?
00:45:23.600 And I go, look, I believe Christians of good conscience can have different viewpoints on
00:45:28.400 red flag laws, on all sorts of background check questions and that sort of thing.
00:45:33.580 But we are not talking about bills designed to say it is okay to go into a school under
00:45:40.700 certain circumstances and shoot children.
00:45:43.440 Nobody is backing that policy.
00:45:45.940 And so they're making that the equivalent, um, equivalence of the abortion question, which
00:45:52.040 is a policy to say it is okay to kill this very young baby, this child.
00:45:58.140 So that is the issue.
00:45:59.960 It's the same thing with the transgender question that, you know, as we look at these
00:46:03.560 laws that are banning, um, transgender surgery, puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones for
00:46:09.500 children, that is what the policy does.
00:46:12.380 The gun control policy does not say, um, if we don't do this and we're backing shooting
00:46:18.980 children.
00:46:19.500 So, you know, it's this very sort of slippery thing where you have to look at what is the
00:46:23.180 intention of the policy?
00:46:24.640 And that's what we're arguing about.
00:46:26.780 Yep.
00:46:27.420 And I mean, just to clarify, um, as I've said many times, I,
00:46:33.560 dude, I am open to arguments that Christians from Christians who don't vote Republican.
00:46:40.020 I'm not open to arguments that Christians can vote Democrat, not the current state of
00:46:44.680 the Democratic Party.
00:46:45.440 It's not anything about the name Democrat.
00:46:47.140 It's not like red versus blue.
00:46:49.280 I'm just looking at the party platform.
00:46:50.820 And no, I don't think that any Christian can support that.
00:46:54.500 Now, there are some arguments out there about, I'm not saying I agree with these arguments,
00:46:58.840 but there are arguments out there about not voting at all, voting third party, writing
00:47:03.380 in your candidate.
00:47:04.280 Now, I think that's really difficult to do in a two-party system, but I'm open to those.
00:47:08.840 I'm certainly not questioning people's salvation.
00:47:11.100 But do I think that it is, that it is possible to, in good faith, to faithfully align with
00:47:20.540 the current Democrat Party?
00:47:21.620 My position is currently, is currently no.
00:47:24.900 Um, so, but that is not a questioning of salvation or idolatry or anything silly like that.
00:47:30.560 Um, but that's the conversation I think that we get goaded into.
00:47:33.420 And you said it's begging the question.
00:47:34.880 It is absolutely.
00:47:35.640 That's, that's what begging the question is.
00:47:37.200 That is begging the question, the rhetorical kind of devices that were used there.
00:47:41.020 So what, what should Christians be on the lookout for when it comes to this?
00:47:45.180 Cause it's an election year and just like in 2020, a lot of churches, maybe in an effort
00:47:52.040 to try to bring their churches together, sincerely, they look at this kind of curriculum and they
00:47:57.800 hope that it's going to be healthy for their churches and building relations and building
00:48:01.020 bridges.
00:48:02.620 Um, right.
00:48:03.460 And it's not though.
00:48:05.280 I don't think, I think it's a Trojan horse.
00:48:07.200 And so like, how should Christians in congregations, um, be approaching this if something like
00:48:13.440 this is presented in their churches?
00:48:16.920 Well, you know, the biggest thing is I would ask questions and, um, I'm so glad you asked
00:48:21.860 this because I thought, you know, one thing I want to end with, um, because Allie has such
00:48:27.660 a huge audience of faithful church going Christians is if your church, if your pastor is saying,
00:48:34.800 Hey, we're going to bring this in, we're having this pastor's conference and we're going to
00:48:37.900 have Russell Moore and Curtis Chang speak to this issue.
00:48:40.660 So one, I would ask them why they're doing that.
00:48:42.820 Um, because, you know, my belief is let's, you know, very deeply and deliberately and
00:48:49.980 diligently study scripture, study the word.
00:48:53.020 And I tend to think that that is going to form our hearts, our thoughts, our minds, and
00:48:58.680 that is going to inform our politics.
00:49:00.320 So I don't know that you need to have a specifically, um, political Bible study.
00:49:06.280 So I have some objections to that in the first place.
00:49:08.660 I think that's really weird, um, to be honest with you, especially, and then when you get
00:49:13.320 into it, something that's so surface level that I go, if you're going to do a study like
00:49:18.080 that in an election year, what I would hope to see is, um, some deep exploration of scripture
00:49:23.780 on what our responsibilities are as citizens, um, what the Lord expects of us with regard
00:49:31.040 to issues on life and sexuality, maybe just, you know, a few of those unquestionable issues,
00:49:37.380 um, where scripture is extremely clear.
00:49:40.060 So that would be one.
00:49:41.040 Um, so I would ask, and I look, if it were up to me, they wouldn't bring it in at all.
00:49:46.440 And I would probably raise a stink and say, I don't understand why we're doing this.
00:49:49.860 This is who these people are.
00:49:50.940 These are the things that Curtis Chang and some of these other people have been involved
00:49:54.140 in.
00:49:54.640 And this is who wants to see it in our church, Rockefeller, Hewlett, second largest funder
00:50:00.140 of Planned Parenthood in the country.
00:50:02.000 There goes my dog wants to see this in our churches.
00:50:07.340 And so for that reason, um, pastor, I would really prefer, you know, not to give them this
00:50:12.640 access to our church.
00:50:13.980 Um, and the same goes for students at Christian colleges, since I do know that that email went
00:50:18.360 out, um, saying, please, you know, bring this from the council for Christian colleges and
00:50:23.280 universities, bring this to your school and your student life and your pastoral ministry
00:50:28.540 classes.
00:50:29.640 Um, so I have a big issue with that to start with, but if your pastor is going to persist
00:50:35.040 in this, I would say, if we are going to do this, if you're going to go forward in this,
00:50:40.240 then you actually do need to have voices because Russell Moore, Curtis Chang, and David French
00:50:46.980 are all of one mind.
00:50:48.200 They have all sort of been the same sort of never Trump voices.
00:50:51.660 So if you're going to do that, then, then let's get some other voices, a, an Albert
00:50:56.200 Mueller, a Wayne Grudem, um, some other people who will come in and offer some other perspective
00:51:02.040 on what, um, the Lord requires of Christians in a political moment in an election year.
00:51:08.160 So, you know, those are the two big things that I would hope people would walk away with.
00:51:12.120 Yeah.
00:51:12.340 And I'm, you know, I'm interested in those debates.
00:51:14.360 It's not that I think that we have a monopoly on the answer to, as you said, you know, those
00:51:20.020 complex issues, but let's not pretend to be nonpartisan when you really aren't, when you're
00:51:26.060 not open to other views.
00:51:38.160 And I just, I just want to end on one thing, because I think one of the most interesting
00:51:44.220 things that you highlighted, and people can do their own homework on this, is the funding
00:51:49.040 of the Rockefellers.
00:51:50.380 And this is, and I want you to talk about your book, but I also have a book coming out
00:51:54.440 this fall.
00:51:55.040 And one thing I talk about is how the Rockefellers have funded abortion for, uh, for so long,
00:52:00.840 for decades and John Rockefeller III was a big fan of Margaret Sanger and was an early
00:52:07.220 funder of Planned Parenthood, her birth control, and from its own website, quote unquote, special
00:52:12.500 projects in African-American communities, which is devastating when you think about what the
00:52:17.940 history of Planned Parenthood's relationship has been with African-American communities.
00:52:22.220 And so I think that it is, and by the way, this is on their own website.
00:52:26.240 This is not some conspiratorial website.
00:52:27.820 This is work that they're proud of.
00:52:29.500 This is history that they're proud of.
00:52:30.900 This is history that they're carrying on today.
00:52:32.860 They are still funding the slaughter of human beings, and they are funding these projects
00:52:38.140 that are going into churches and saying, ooh, let's have some humility if you're a conservative
00:52:42.580 Christian who is pro-life or whatever it is.
00:52:45.140 It's much more nuanced.
00:52:46.720 So I just don't think that that's a coincidence, and I think that you are right for uncovering
00:52:52.440 it.
00:52:53.200 And anyway, I'm thankful for that.
00:52:55.200 Um, so tell us, uh, anything else you want to say, but also tell us about your book that's
00:52:59.460 about to come out.
00:53:01.320 Yes.
00:53:01.840 So about might be, um, give an indication that it's a little sooner than, uh, it is.
00:53:07.120 It doesn't come out until this summer.
00:53:08.380 So, um, yeah, we just, we just, we're just unrolling it right now.
00:53:12.480 Yeah.
00:53:12.700 So, uh, evangelicals for rent, it comes out this summer, should be available for pre-order
00:53:17.820 soon.
00:53:18.440 Um, this was, you know, this story when I stumbled onto it, it was something that to me was so important.
00:53:23.480 I went, I can't save this for the book and go, I'll wait until, you know, I mean, the
00:53:28.140 study is coming out now it's going into churches now.
00:53:30.480 So I kind of, um, I just thought I have to write a piece about it and get it out now.
00:53:34.360 But, um, so yeah, so the book, um, if you go onto Harper Collins website, I think you
00:53:40.220 can order it now actually, but, uh, it should have a proper pre-order page here at Amazon
00:53:45.460 and, um, Barnes and Noble and all the other sites very soon.
00:53:49.540 Um, I can tell you that there, I got to, I hope I'm, I'm not speaking out of turn, but
00:53:54.280 I did get a really good call from, um, pastor John MacArthur who got an early look at it
00:53:59.400 and is extremely enthusiastic.
00:54:00.660 So, um, I know there, yes, they're going to be talking about it a little bit at, uh, promoting
00:54:06.000 it at Shepherds conference just offered.
00:54:07.720 He just said, I thought this was really important work and, you know, we'd like to, um, to highlight
00:54:13.540 it at Shepherds conference.
00:54:14.780 So if you're going to Shepherds conference, you might hear a little bit about it there.
00:54:18.000 So, um, yeah, so just keep an eye out and yeah, what I'm going to do is, um, really go
00:54:22.840 in, in a much bigger way about how foundations, how secular organizations, you know, for various
00:54:29.160 reasons are trying to gain access to the church for the reason that you mentioned, Allie, and
00:54:33.860 that is to, um, take down that last fortress of resistance to the progressive agenda.
00:54:40.160 Yes.
00:54:40.460 Well, thank you so much, Megan.
00:54:41.640 Thank you for the work that you do and for bringing us your insight here today.
00:54:45.120 I really appreciate it.
00:54:47.180 Thanks so much.
00:54:47.920 Thanks for having me.