Peavi Reimanen is a Finnish member of Parliament who was prosecuted for hate speech for posting a Bible verse in 2019. That Bible verse came from Romans 1, which condemned homosexuality. She has been in a legal battle over the past few years fighting for her right to say what she thinks, to articulate what she believes, and she is here with us today to share her testimony. Kristen Wagner from Alliance Defending Freedom is also here to explain the legal battle and to tell us some lessons that we as Americans can take away from this case in Finland.
00:03:39.320So your original tweet, because Twitter will translate it for me, said exactly that.
00:03:47.060So the church, as you said, has announced that he is the official partner of this Pride parade, Pride celebration.
00:03:54.040How does the doctrine of the church fit in with the fact that shame and sin are raised as a matter of pride?
00:04:02.040And I don't know if that's an exact translation, but of course, your point is very clear.
00:04:08.440So let's see, you were formally charged with agitation against a minority group in 2021 under a section of the Finnish Criminal Code titled War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity
00:04:20.580for sharing your beliefs on marriage and sexual ethics in your 2019 tweet, as well as the 2019 live radio debate and 2004 church pamphlet.
00:04:34.660Were you stunned by this as all of this was unfolding in your life?
00:06:24.300So asking you theological questions, as you mentioned, you had posted Romans 1, 24 through 26, which is very clear.
00:06:34.120Therefore, God gave them over to, in the sinful desires of their hearts, to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
00:07:08.400They cared about the views that you hold in your mind and heart, not only the things that you were saying, which is very scary.
00:07:16.620Yes, and in fact, when the police investigated this case, the police said that if my writings and if my views would be convicted, then also the Bibles should be banned.
00:07:36.280So, it is, I have to say that it was, it has been very absurd that this happens in Finland.
00:07:49.460I felt when I was sitting there in the police station or in court that this is like in former Soviet Union or in some other country.
00:08:04.200But I understand that in Finland and in most European countries, there are laws that deal about agitation against minorities, some kind of hate speech laws.
00:08:27.760Even though that we do not have that special word, hate speech in our law, but we have the law about agitation against minorities.
00:08:38.320And I was accused because of that law.
00:08:42.160And now I think that the prosecutor and the state tries to see that what are the boundaries of free speech and rights of minorities.
00:09:00.000So, this is some kind of historical test in Finland.
00:09:08.840And I think that it has also ramifications, consequences to other European countries which have similar laws.
00:09:18.860So, it is very important that what is the result of this legal process.
00:09:32.420They are based on the whims and the perspectives of the people in charge, which is, of course, why in America and in other places, we have something like the First Amendment that says this is a right that cannot be taken away, should not be taken away by the government, even if something is deemed hateful.
00:09:54.280And so, like you said, you can see the consequences of a case like yours impacting other countries, setting a precedent for what you can be charged with, even just for quoting the Bible and asking a question.
00:10:30.140You have been outspoken about your Christian beliefs this entire time, and yet only in the past few years have you gotten the kind of backlash that you have gotten.
00:10:41.840I don't know that much about Finland's politics and kind of the moral landscape there.
00:10:48.980In your estimation, what has changed over the past, you know, 10 or so years that has made speech like yours so condemnable to the government in Finland?
00:11:05.980Yes, I think that there has happened quite a big change in general atmosphere towards Christianity and Christian beliefs.
00:11:21.920We have some research about these beliefs, and we can see that during the past 20 years, the amount of those who stand behind Christian beliefs,
00:11:48.520it has decreased, it has decreased a lot.
00:11:51.920And I would say that our society and also the main church of Finland, it is very divided in regard of these beliefs.
00:12:07.740And the LGBT network has been very active in Finnish society, as in most European countries.
00:12:20.280And they have influenced in Parliament and in our state, and also to the office of Prosecutor General.
00:12:33.920But at the same time, I have to say that we have had these laws about agitation against minorities.
00:15:03.360And each time the police asked, in the end of the interrogation, he asked that and said that I have two weeks time to take away my, to delete my writings and apologize this.
00:15:26.460But I said that I will not apologize what Apostle Paul has stated.
00:27:09.820And it has been very important for me that I have felt that God speaks through the Bible.
00:27:19.780It is the word of God, and he has guided me.
00:27:24.460And it is the basis for, it is the foundation for also when I think about eternity, to life after the death.
00:27:40.600And so it has been so important for me.
00:27:46.620And I have to say that all this legal process, this ordeal for this almost five years, I have felt at the same time that it has been a calling to me.
00:28:03.180And it has even been a privilege to defend these important freedoms, freedom of speech and freedom of faith.
00:28:14.580And also, it has been amazing, and it has been wonderful to see how God has opened so many opportunities to testify about gospel and Jesus in public, in front of the police and in court and in media.
00:28:40.360And there have been many people who have told that they have found Christ when they have followed my case.
00:28:54.600So I think that God has used this process, and I have had all the time very strong and very deep feeling that this has been God's calling to me to go through this process.
00:29:13.300So I'm thankful, I'm grateful at the moment, and I trust that this whole process is in God's hand.
00:29:22.580There is some purpose for this, and I just pray that God would use this also in future.
00:31:40.480Well, as Pivi described, it has been an ordealing battle for her, not just going through police investigations, but being in the police station and having questions about her theology, then moving into the courtroom and having to defend herself on multiple occasions.
00:31:57.120She started out in the Helsinki district court.
00:31:59.480So if we think about it in terms of the American system, think about the trial court system.
00:32:04.520So you start out in the trial court system and she was vindicated on all counts, all three charges there.
00:32:10.500The prosecutor should have been in the FBI, the prosecutor's case, and that's where the Finnish system departs from the U.S. system.
00:32:21.460In the United States, if you are acquitted from a crime that can't be appealed, but in Finland, if you're acquitted from a crime, it can be appealed.
00:32:31.300And so Pivi, again, had to go through the ordeal and had an appeal that went to the court of appeals there.
00:32:38.260And again, she was acquitted on all charges completely.
00:32:43.180And then once again, the prosecutor general should have walked away, but decided again to ask the Finland Supreme Court to hear her case.
00:32:52.500And that's where her case is at right now.
00:32:54.360She's been vindicated by every judge that has considered her case, but it sits at the Finnish Supreme Court right now and we're waiting to hear whether they will hear the case.
00:33:04.320Those who watch the court system, including our attorneys, suspect that they may grant the appeal and we're hopeful that she'll be vindicated again.
00:33:14.900But again, it's a long ordeal and the process becomes the punishment.
00:33:18.960Yeah, absolutely. That's the thing is that even if she is victorious after all of this, I mean, we've seen similar situations like with Jack Phillips here in the United States.
00:33:30.540I mean, it takes up years of their life and resources and energy and safety and security and and all of these things that and I think that seems to be kind of the point, right?
00:33:42.600Like the punishment, you said the process is the punishment and the punishment is the point, don't you think?
00:33:48.960I think it's a part of it. But I I think as I was listening to Pivey tell her story, a few points that I think would be helpful to make in terms of the law is that it is more than just the punishment being the process.
00:34:01.100It's that the laws are changing. At Alliance Defending Freedom, we're most known for our court cases at the Supreme Court like Jack Phillips.
00:34:08.580But we're working around the world and we are seeing a rising tide of global censorship.
00:34:13.760We have cases across Europe. We have cases in Latin America, in Asia, in Africa, all involving these types of laws.
00:34:23.000And yes, we have the First Amendment. But I just would encourage Americans in particular to recognize that every Western country has these types of hate speech laws right now, except the United States.
00:34:35.440We're the last nation that doesn't have it. And at the same time, these other nations have constitutional and legal protections in place, some of which have even stronger language than our First Amendment.
00:34:47.400And so we are seeing these hate speech laws come in through the back door in the United States.
00:34:54.040And we're litigating cases right now about them. And as you mentioned, Jack, Jack Phillips is he's on his third case right now.
00:35:01.220He still has a case that's going on, even though we won in 303 Creative, a recent Supreme Court case on behalf of a website designer.
00:35:08.920So our rights are only as good as when we stand up and insist that they be protected.
00:35:13.740Yeah, absolutely. Gosh, we've seen that in so many instances, especially over the last few years.
00:35:19.560What I find in the conversation about free speech and hate speech is that some people are unable.
00:35:25.720And it's not just when it comes to the issue of so-called hate speech, which is very arbitrarily defined.
00:35:30.360But people are unable to separate some people what the law should be from what they personally think.
00:35:39.080And so they believe that something being legal or advocating for something being legal means that you are endorsing that thing.
00:35:47.200So, of course, we are against I'm against truly hateful speech.
00:35:52.520I don't like it, won't say it, won't support someone, you know, the words that someone says.
00:35:59.220But I can understand why it's important that someone has the right to say things that I may personally find offensive or I may vehemently disagree with.
00:36:11.820And I just have seen this increase in an inability or unwillingness to kind of separate those two things, to understand that something has to be a protected right.
00:36:24.220Even if I don't agree with what someone is saying or someone is creating or someone is believing or who someone is worshiping, I can disagree all day long and I can still believe that that thing should be legal.
00:36:38.120I'm not saying that is true in every single case.
00:36:46.900I mean, in American law and in what we've seen throughout history, the best free speech laws are those that do insist that if there's an imminent coercion or imminent suggestion of violence, then in that moment, there may be some limitations on speech.
00:37:02.720But that's not what's happening around the United States or around the world right now.
00:37:06.880And I think the question that has to be asked is, who should be limiting speech?
00:37:11.200What's the best way to counter bad ideas?
00:37:13.600Social science and history tells us that it's not by giving the power to the government to censor ideas.
00:37:19.680It's about ensuring that we can all enter the marketplace and search for truth.
00:37:24.760So if we're talking about global censorship and the impact of censorship and we allow states to make those decisions, what we're doing is blurring the line between democracy and dictatorship.
00:37:36.180And we're also inhibiting the search for truth and the way to get to the right answers.
00:37:40.760We know that the best way is, again, to engage in robust debate and then to see social progress come out of that.
00:37:47.220Right. Right. Miss Resonan, do you have any final words of encouragement for Christians in general, but particularly Christians who, like you, have a public platform where they have the responsibility to speak the truth, to share the things they believe in?
00:38:09.560But just like you have here in the United States, it can be kind of scary to do so sometimes.
00:38:17.160So what words of courage would you give fellow Christians around the world?
00:40:05.020So I think that, for example, in Finland, the biggest problem for the freedom of speak is the self-censorship.
00:40:13.780And that's why it is important that we Christians, that we use these freedoms, that we speak about what Bible teaches and we tell the good message about Jesus as he has commanded us.
00:40:35.780And then also I want to encourage that what Jesus has promised in the Bible about difficult times and even persecutions.
00:40:55.840He, he, he, he, he, he is trustful that what he has promised, he also, he, he, he does it.
00:41:09.100And I have felt very concretely that, uh, I, I have got, uh, peace and I have, I, I, I have also got, uh, uh, uh, words when, when needed in, in court and in, in front of the police.