Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 973 ｜ What Does Mike Rowe Think About God？｜ Guest： Mike Rowe

00:00:00.540 What does the future of work look like with the rise of AI?

00:00:05.520 Why is teaching kids the importance of delayed gratification so needed today?

00:00:12.380 And also, what does God have to do with all of this?

00:00:17.280 Today, I am sitting down with Mike Rowe.

00:00:20.380 You know him from his very famous show, Dirty Jobs.

00:00:23.720 But gosh, he wears a lot of hats and he is doing such good work for the future of work

00:00:28.520 in this country.

00:00:30.300 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:33.100 Go to GoodRanchers.com.

00:00:34.420 Use code Allie at checkout. 1.00

00:00:35.640 That's GoodRanchers.com, code Allie.

00:00:47.080 Mike, thanks so much for coming on the show again.

00:00:49.280 I appreciate it.

00:00:50.020 Thanks for having me back.

00:00:51.060 We were trying to figure out if it's been a year or two or five.

00:00:54.380 I know, time.

00:00:55.560 Time is so weird.

00:00:56.800 And you were saying it's been weird for you for the past few years.

00:00:59.780 It's just been, it's been compressed on the one hand.

00:01:03.980 Yeah.

00:01:04.340 Like, there have been months since 2020 that felt like they went on for almost a year.

00:01:11.580 Yeah.

00:01:12.040 But then at the same time, a year or two feels like a couple of months.

00:01:17.340 Yeah.

00:01:17.620 So it's all, it's just conflated.

00:01:20.380 You know, it was just a busy, super weird time and everybody sort of went through it.

00:01:26.000 And I think we're still processing it.

00:01:28.540 I think so too.

00:01:29.660 It's just hard for me to believe that 2019 was five years ago.

00:01:33.100 Yeah.

00:01:33.360 It's just so bizarre.

00:01:34.360 Well, that's the thing about math, Allie.

00:01:35.980 You know.

00:01:36.300 I don't like it.

00:01:37.240 That's why I have a podcast.

00:01:38.400 I never have to do math.

00:01:39.440 And the math doesn't care what you think.

00:01:42.200 That's true.

00:01:42.760 It's like gravity.

00:01:43.880 You know, you don't really have to believe in it for it to be real.

00:01:48.720 For it to work.

00:01:49.700 That's true.

00:01:50.580 That's true.

00:01:51.260 But thankfully, I have a calculator now that can figure that out for me.

00:01:54.460 Like, you don't have to have your own truth with numbers or gravity.

00:01:59.520 And you really can't.

00:02:00.580 Have you seen, though, that there is a push?

00:02:02.740 There is a push now to say that two plus two can equal five.

00:02:07.320 Sure.

00:02:07.740 If it makes you feel good.

00:02:10.000 Yeah.

00:02:10.280 Now, if you're sad about one and one being two, then, yeah, you have every right to petition.

00:02:15.580 There must be something afoot with the numbers.

00:02:18.940 Some conspiracy.

00:02:20.600 Something to do with pi, maybe, and prime numbers getting together.

00:02:24.580 Something.

00:02:25.320 Yeah.

00:02:25.700 And the patriarchy, I guess.

00:02:27.340 Probably the patriarchy.

00:02:28.820 Probably.

00:02:29.140 Something about that.

00:02:30.420 Yeah.

00:02:32.060 Okay.

00:02:33.080 Speaking of that.

00:02:34.300 Speaking of school and education and how it probably, because of things like that, two

00:02:41.320 plus two equaling five, caring more about how people feel than what they actually learn,

00:02:46.520 education in this country is not doing well.

00:02:48.760 We're paying a lot of money per pupil.

00:02:51.420 Some people think it's a funding issue, but it's really not.

00:02:54.040 We have a lot of money in the public education system.

00:02:56.360 And yet performance is not good, but you are trying to get into schools.

00:03:02.060 You are in schools right now with a curriculum, right?

00:03:04.760 Just trying to teach kids how to work hard.

00:03:07.080 So tell me how that's going.

00:03:08.520 Well, we're just trying to get a little balance back into public schools.

00:03:12.160 And it's been a slog.

00:03:14.060 You know, my foundation awards work ethic scholarships and has for the last nine years or so.

00:03:20.420 And we're in the midst of it right now.

00:03:22.780 We're giving away a million dollars between now and the end of April.

00:03:26.080 So shameless plug, go get some at microworks.org.

00:03:30.080 But part of the reason that we do that is because when you assist people to learn a skill

00:03:38.000 that's in demand, and then you circle back and talk to them a couple of years later,

00:03:42.860 you wind up with a very authentic story, way more authentic than me anecdotally telling

00:03:48.580 you about these people, right?

00:03:50.500 And so that's what the foundation has really been working on is getting more real stories

00:03:57.160 out there on the interwebs in a convincing way.

00:04:00.480 At the same time, we've been trying to take work ethic, whatever that means to you.

00:04:06.580 And well, I can tell you what it means to me, but we've distilled all of it into a curriculum.

00:04:13.600 And the curriculum is based on a thing called a sweat pledge that I wrote a couple of years

00:04:18.360 ago as we try and quantify work ethic.

00:04:21.680 You know, if you're going to award work ethic scholarships, you have to at least be able to

00:04:25.900 talk about what it is you think you mean.

00:04:28.180 And the first thing we mean is, well, there's a scholarship for everything else and there's

00:04:32.340 academic scholarships and there's talent-based scholarships and athletic scholarships.

00:04:36.780 So who's making the case for work ethic?

00:04:38.800 So that's the rock I've been trying to push up the hill for a while.

00:04:42.460 And I think the reason we finally found some traction, perversely, is because other people

00:04:49.620 were pushing other rocks.

00:04:51.700 There's the ESG rock and there's the DEI rock and there's the CRT rock.

00:04:57.940 To your point, there's a lot of different agendas in education and a lot of different acronyms.

00:05:03.220 So I can't prove this, but I think what happened in part was a lot of parents were just kind

00:05:09.700 of looking around and saying, listen, I don't mind if my kids are exposed to these different

00:05:15.920 ideas, but can we at least make a case for work ethic and delayed gratification and personal

00:05:21.980 responsibility and attitude and all of that stuff that we kind of grew up with that used

00:05:29.900 to be taught?

00:05:31.200 I mean, is there a way to identify some of our historical figures and talk about their

00:05:37.380 contribution vis-a-vis those virtues instead of turning them into these kind of triggering

00:05:44.640 dog whistles that they've become?

00:05:47.480 Anyhow, like I said, I can't prove it.

00:05:49.140 I just know that for the first time, a big public high school in Vegas called Western High

00:05:54.760 has taken our curriculum and put it into the freshman class.

00:06:00.600 So about 750 kids.

00:06:02.620 And I've become friendly with a woman called Chris Engelstadt, who runs a terrific foundation

00:06:07.200 also in Nevada called the Engelstadt Foundation.

00:06:10.280 And she has supported micro works in the past.

00:06:13.140 And she said, look, why don't we get together?

00:06:15.540 We'll get your curriculum in this school and we'll dedicate four and a half, five million

00:06:19.720 dollars to the top performing kids.

00:06:22.760 So like the top 50 or 100 kids who go through this program will get a full free ride scholarship

00:06:30.080 to any trade school in the country.

00:06:32.700 So that's pretty great.

00:06:34.260 Yeah.

00:06:34.680 Right.

00:06:35.040 So, I mean, for the first time, we're able to to marry this work ethic curriculum to a

00:06:42.480 big pile of money and give it to kids who demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt, a level of, I'm not

00:06:52.940 sure I can say the word worthiness, but that's what I mean.

00:06:56.340 Yeah.

00:06:57.120 Right.

00:06:57.500 We want to reward the behavior that we're we're all desperate to encourage.

00:07:01.560 This does it.

00:07:02.040 How do you teach the value of delayed gratification in a world where you really have to work to

00:07:09.900 find it?

00:07:10.580 If you want instant gratification, it's right there at your fingertips and you really have

00:07:15.820 to put in effort to even find a form of delayed gratification.

00:07:20.380 How do you convince someone that it's worth that effort?

00:07:23.260 You can't.

00:07:24.700 You can't.

00:07:26.100 I mean, how do you convince somebody that that two and two is really for, you know, you

00:07:31.200 you you just have it takes that's it's terribly clever, isn't it, to say it takes time to teach

00:07:38.500 delayed gratification, but but it does.

00:07:41.520 And and it also takes failure.

00:07:43.760 You know, you can ask your kid, look, you can swipe left and you can get on the tick

00:07:49.240 tock or the reels.

00:07:50.380 And next thing you know, three hours go by.

00:07:52.900 Right.

00:07:53.260 Yeah, that that happens to all of us.

00:07:56.220 It's happened to me.

00:07:57.120 It happened to me this morning, actually.

00:07:58.500 But but how do you feel afterwards?

00:08:01.060 Right.

00:08:01.480 How do you feel after you've spent like an hour and a half?

00:08:05.220 Never good.

00:08:06.140 Right.

00:08:06.640 So you're you're getting this little dopamine thing while it's happening.

00:08:11.720 And then when it's done, it's it's like you just ate a big bowl of candy corn or cotton

00:08:17.400 candy.

00:08:17.880 Right.

00:08:18.180 Like like your teeth hurt.

00:08:19.820 You didn't learn anything at all. 0.98

00:08:22.420 And you start to think, damn, I like that. 0.98

00:08:26.060 I just waste that time. 0.99

00:08:27.600 Right.

00:08:28.100 And the honest.

00:08:29.380 Right.

00:08:30.280 So that's that's time you didn't spend reading any of the great books on this coffee table

00:08:35.600 or or having a moment with your kid or calling a parent or a grandparent.

00:08:42.100 I mean, when you think of the things you're not doing while you're satisfying the immediate

00:08:49.460 need to be gratified, that'll break your heart.

00:08:54.360 You know, so I think part of it is just letting kids experience immediate gratification and

00:09:00.560 really having a conversation with them about did that really did that nourish you in any

00:09:07.560 way at all.

00:09:08.940 Right.

00:09:09.940 So, yeah, you can't rush delayed gratification.

00:09:14.200 We have a video of a young woman, Chloe Hudson, who went through your program and she has

00:09:32.240 something to say about what she did with her scholarship.

00:09:35.760 Can we play that thought of Chloe?

00:09:37.940 OK.

00:09:38.200 People say there's no opportunity for women in the trades. 1.00

00:09:41.200 Those people never met Chloe Hudson.

00:09:43.380 You entered a field that historically has been dominated by men.

00:09:46.900 Welding.

00:09:47.520 My dad, he really instilled in me that there is absolutely nothing that I'm incapable of.

00:09:52.880 The women in the 40s and 50s, they blazed that trail and they did it with red lipstick. 1.00

00:09:56.860 I'm not a female welder.

00:09:58.240 I'm not a weld her.

00:09:59.560 I'm not a trades woman.

00:10:01.100 I'm just a welder.

00:10:02.280 That's what I do for a living and I love it.

00:10:04.340 Apply for a work ethic scholarship today at microworks.org.

00:10:08.200 OK, so women in welding. 1.00

00:10:09.420 That's not something that you hear about often.

00:10:11.240 No.

00:10:12.200 Chloe is a rock star, by the way.

00:10:14.580 We love her because, to your point, she just doesn't look like a welder.

00:10:20.900 No, she doesn't.

00:10:21.240 Those are big fake eyelashes.

00:10:23.060 That's a lot of makeup.

00:10:24.560 She loves it.

00:10:25.400 She really, really embraces her femininity.

00:10:29.280 And the first time we met, she applied for one of our scholarships.

00:10:33.140 And her story was she came very close to signing on the dotted line to go to medical school.

00:10:38.560 She wanted to be a plastic surgeon. 0.96

00:10:39.740 But, you know, $350,000 in the hole.

00:10:44.020 It's scary to start your career like that.

00:10:46.820 And she grew up in a household where debt was, you know, a real four-letter word.

00:10:52.160 And so she just said, no, I'm going to do something else.

00:10:55.500 I think we gave her $6,000 or $7,000 through our program.

00:11:00.260 And she got some other grants.

00:11:01.780 And she went to this welding school.

00:11:04.480 And she is, today, just a total rock star over at Joe Gibbs.

00:11:09.420 Well, right.

00:11:09.840 I mean, she's just, everybody loves her.

00:11:11.900 And she loves what she's doing.

00:11:14.180 And so that's what I meant before.

00:11:16.500 Just a little snippet like that that can make the rounds and make a kid go, well, wait a minute.

00:11:22.920 How much is she making again? 0.91

00:11:24.000 It's like $140,000, $150,000 a year and no debt.

00:11:27.880 So these stories have to get out there.

00:11:29.840 Yeah.

00:11:30.400 They just have to.

00:11:31.560 And, you know, work ethic is a part of it.

00:11:34.060 Yeah.

00:11:34.700 You know, it's crazy how quickly things have changed.

00:11:37.100 My husband and I don't have any, you know, burning desire for our kids to have to go to college.

00:11:45.200 And yet, for us, it was an expectation.

00:11:47.960 There was never any conversation or question whether we would go to college.

00:11:51.740 Same thing for my parents.

00:11:53.120 My grandmother was the first one in her family to go to college. 1.00

00:11:56.160 She was raised on a farm.

00:11:58.020 But, you know, she saw going to college as her ticket to success and independence.

00:12:02.840 She passed that down to my dad, who passed that down to us.

00:12:06.740 And now it's kind of stopped.

00:12:08.120 And I see that with a lot of my friends.

00:12:10.200 We're not.

00:12:10.420 I mean, our kids are young, but we're not so sure that's how we feel about college and higher education.

00:12:15.540 And, in fact, we have some fears surrounding it, considering some of those acronyms that you just listed and the ideology that's being pushed at universities.

00:12:24.240 I mean, it's just crazy to me how fast that change has happened over just a few generations.

00:12:30.460 It's like the time thing we were talking about before.

00:12:34.560 It's stretched out and it's compressed at the same time.

00:12:37.940 Look, nothing ever stays the same.

00:12:40.240 And we want it to.

00:12:41.680 It's part of the allure, I think, of history.

00:12:44.940 It's comforting, I would think, for parents to have a playbook.

00:12:49.980 Because job one, don't screw them up, right?

00:12:53.120 You just don't want to screw up your kids.

00:12:54.840 So what can I do?

00:12:56.160 What are some things I can say and do that are universally wise?

00:13:02.780 And for a while there, it was go to college.

00:13:06.160 Because, look, to be fair and to be honest about it, there was a time not so long ago when our country really did need to encourage more kids to affirmatively get into higher education.

00:13:20.380 We needed more engineers.

00:13:22.160 We needed more doctors.

00:13:25.020 That's all good.

00:13:26.920 The problem is the same problem all of the time.

00:13:31.660 We pushed too hard and too far, and we did it with this cookie-cutter approach, this idea that there is a training manual for parents and that somewhere near the top of it, that's very appealing.

00:13:48.600 And so that trope found its way into the manual.

00:13:53.180 So a whole generation of well-intended parents combined with a whole generation of well-intended guidance counselors told a couple generations of kids not just, hey, this is a path you should consider.

00:14:08.860 We told them that if you don't take this path, you're doomed.

00:14:12.840 Yeah.

00:14:13.260 You're doomed, right?

00:14:14.780 And so when we started doing that, we turned trade schools and apprenticeships into something subordinate to a four-year degree, which by extension made a whole category of jobs vocational consolation prizes.

00:14:33.060 And so all of that part of the workforce became the thing you don't want your kid to wind up doing because it's a reflection partly on their deficiency and partly on you, right?

00:14:49.580 So it's a very powerful thing.

00:14:52.480 You don't have to look any further than Varsity Blues to see what parents will do, right?

00:14:58.480 So, you know, it's important to acknowledge that all of that happened.

00:15:04.020 And I think it's important, too, to say, look, is it really a mystery as to why college got so expensive when you think about that kind of pressure?

00:15:13.240 And, I mean, the universities have free reign, essentially, to charge whatever they want because their customer base is scared to death.

00:15:21.080 So they'll borrow whatever it takes, and they don't think of it like a car or a TV or something transactional.

00:15:30.800 They think of it as an investment in their future.

00:15:34.280 And then the next thing you know, it's college for all.

00:15:37.180 And then the next thing you know, if you're opposed to that, you're way out of line. 0.99

00:15:43.000 You're crazy. 0.99

00:15:44.280 I hear this every day. 0.99

00:15:45.800 Oh, Mike Rowe, he's just anti-college.

00:15:47.760 No, I'm not.

00:15:48.240 My liberal arts education was very valuable to me.

00:15:52.600 It was also extremely affordable at $12,500.

00:15:56.900 That same thing today is over $90,000.

00:15:59.440 Same school, same courses, right?

00:16:01.800 So, yeah, what was true for my mom and dad?

00:16:06.240 My dad came through on the GI Bill.

00:16:09.320 You know, what was true for his parents?

00:16:11.880 It's simply not true in the same universal way.

00:16:15.440 It still might be true for a lot of kids.

00:16:18.240 People, there are parents listening to this right now, I'm sure, who have kids who should absolutely get into a four-year school.

00:16:26.180 I don't want to suggest that that is no longer a thing.

00:16:31.600 Right.

00:16:31.880 But I will suggest that it was never the best path for the most people, and that's what we've been told for a long time.

00:16:40.300 Yeah.

00:16:40.820 I mean, I'm thankful for my liberal arts degree, too.

00:16:43.260 I think my husband is valuable in a lot of ways.

00:16:46.600 Looking back, I actually think I probably learned what I needed to learn, mostly in high school.

00:16:52.380 But I do think that there have been a lot of benefits to my college education, so I'm with you.

00:16:57.960 When did you graduate?

00:16:59.000 2014.

00:16:59.920 Oh, good for you.

00:17:00.920 Yeah.

00:17:01.200 That's awesome.

00:17:02.040 Good for you.

00:17:03.140 Yeah.

00:17:03.820 So I'm thankful for it.

00:17:05.520 But I absolutely see the benefit in alternate routes that, as you said, they were not even presented to us in school at all.

00:17:16.340 And if you chose, if you were one of the crazy people who chose to go to a community college or chose to not go to college, that was like, wow, did you hear about that person?

00:17:26.680 That person decided not to go to college.

00:17:28.160 And it was this insane, stigmatized choice.

00:17:32.980 Well, that started, I mean, for me, my guidance counselor literally looked me in the face when he suggested that, what's it, Pennsylvania, UPenn, James Madison, and the University of Maryland.

00:17:49.000 I was a senior.

00:17:50.220 I'd taken some tests.

00:17:51.740 I'd done well.

00:17:52.800 He said, look, these schools will take you, you know, and there's a financial aid package.

00:17:57.480 You apply for this and this.

00:17:59.240 And, A, I didn't have any money, and I didn't want to borrow money.

00:18:03.420 But, B, I didn't know what I wanted to do at all.

00:18:07.420 And so why would you want to borrow money to find out what you want to do?

00:18:14.320 It just seemed so bananas.

00:18:16.420 And I said, look, I'm going to go to Essex Community College.

00:18:19.220 I can literally walk there from my parents' house, and I'm going to figure it out.

00:18:25.940 He literally said to me, Allie, that is beneath your potential.

00:18:33.140 And he pointed to a poster that he had hanging in his office.

00:18:38.160 The poster said, work smart, not hard.

00:18:41.480 And it was cut right down the middle.

00:18:44.000 On the left was a picture of a kid in a cap and gown, mortarboard, who had just graduated, holding his diploma, smiling, looking optimistic.

00:18:51.280 And next to him is a tradesman in a dark, dingy, dirty environment, holding a wrench, looking down, right?

00:19:00.420 Like, it's that moment.

00:19:03.300 That's what I mean when we, you know, we were in the, this is 1979, and so we're in the midst of the big push for college for everybody.

00:19:11.960 And we weren't making, we weren't simply making a case for college.

00:19:17.260 We were using all the other trades as a cautionary tale.

00:19:21.920 Yeah.

00:19:22.660 And I'll never forget that.

00:19:23.580 Like, you could end up like that guy.

00:19:24.620 That's it.

00:19:25.200 Better be careful, or else.

00:19:27.120 Yeah.

00:19:27.800 And that's what, that's what, that's what PR does.

00:19:31.260 It always goes too far, and it always paints with too broad a brush.

00:19:35.620 And people always wind up hearing advice that they shouldn't, and then taking it, which is too bad.

00:19:43.340 Yeah, that is too bad.

00:19:45.460 I saw the other day on a talk show, Stephen Colbert, this guy from the WEF, and his name is escaping me right now.

00:19:55.740 But he's, you know, part of the World Economic Forum.

00:19:58.600 And he said, for the first time ever, parents don't know what to teach their children because we cannot predict what's going to happen in 20 years.

00:20:08.520 He was talking about throughout the generations, you'd still be able to lay a foundation and know that those things are relevant, which I'm not really sure is true, thinking about the Industrial Revolution.

00:20:17.000 But he said, now we have no idea.

00:20:20.580 AI, he says, is just going to completely take over.

00:20:23.700 The need for humans is basically going to go away, is going to dissipate.

00:20:29.080 He's big into AI.

00:20:31.020 And parents, really, there's no need to even teach your kids essential skills because we don't know if those skills are going to be applicable.

00:20:39.040 I mean, that's scary to me.

00:20:40.560 I don't like thinking about that.

00:20:42.300 But do you think that's true?

00:20:43.320 Well, I think it's true that he said it, and it's probably true that he believes it.

00:20:49.680 But, you know, he's arbitraged everything out of the business of learning and mastering a thing, but for the transaction itself.

00:21:05.300 So, in other words, you know, why is the value of a thing limited to its applicability?

00:21:12.000 Why is the value of a thing limited to its application in the real world?

00:21:18.740 Does poetry have no value?

00:21:22.320 Like, what is the application?

00:21:25.700 Like, identify the things in your life that bring you the most joy and the most fulfillment and the most nourishment and ask what their actual application is.

00:21:35.120 It's a, you can't let him set the table that way.

00:21:40.480 Otherwise, you'll wind up answering the question the way he wants you to answer it.

00:21:47.620 You know, it's not a very good question, in other words.

00:21:51.540 And it's based on what I think is a faulty premise.

00:21:55.320 Your work can't be reduced to the pay.

00:22:00.660 The pay is very important, obviously, because we don't work simply to fulfill ourselves, but we also don't work simply to make money.

00:22:09.720 So, somewhere in that transaction is the humanity that you mentioned.

00:22:19.020 And in that humanity is the individuality.

00:22:22.360 And in the individuality is the great experience of life and the unpredictability and the variance.

00:22:30.900 This idea that he doesn't know what's going to happen in 20 years is probably true, but why is it bad?

00:22:42.140 Why does he need to know?

00:22:44.680 Does he want to know what the sunset's going to look like tonight?

00:22:48.920 I hope not.

00:22:52.200 You know, I think about that a lot, you know, in terms of certainty and uncertainty and, you know, our need for it.

00:22:59.520 Like, we all need to feel secure enough that we can function.

00:23:05.120 In other words, we need to know the sun is going to come up.

00:23:08.460 But if it came up the same way every day for 20 years, if the sunrise always looked the same, and if the sunset always looked the same, we'd go out of our minds.

00:23:19.080 We'd be bored to death.

00:23:20.760 Because uncertainty is variety, right?

00:23:23.800 So, yeah, I don't know what to think of people who look at their crystal ball and go, okay, it's impossible to predict what's going to happen.

00:23:32.920 Therefore, we should stop doing all these things or start doing all these new things.

00:23:38.720 That seems silly to me.

00:23:40.640 I mean, Google Luddite revolution.

00:23:43.460 Yeah.

00:23:43.900 And read about the Loomers.

00:23:45.620 Right.

00:23:45.920 And read about what happened in the textile industry back in the, what was it, 1700s.

00:23:49.720 I mean, all these fears, all of that uncertainty, it's, history is just a wheel, you know, and it's spinning and it's moving.

00:24:00.600 And I think sometimes it's so many people believe we're living in an unprecedented moment simply because they're going through it.

00:24:10.240 It's unprecedented to you.

00:24:12.680 Right.

00:24:13.200 But, you know, been there, done that.

00:24:16.620 In different ways.

00:24:17.340 Everything's old.

00:24:17.880 When you think about the past 100 years and how much has changed and how little you could predict going from, you know, 1930 to 1940, from 1960 to 1970, whatever it is, or let's say 20 years.

00:24:31.860 Certainly from 1960 to 1980, you couldn't have predicted a bunch of the things that developed.

00:24:36.420 Even going back further than that, I'm sure that there were a lot of people who couldn't have predicted the printing press.

00:24:40.960 And I also think about how there are skills that maybe are less needed today than they were 20 years ago, but that doesn't mean that those skills aren't valuable.

00:24:56.360 Say today that it's less important for you to be a good writer or a good speaker because everything has predictive text and you can kind of just use a template.

00:25:06.320 But still, being a good communicator and a good writer can make you stand out.

00:25:12.080 It's actually, I think, because it is so, I don't know, it's not as in demand, seemingly, that it can actually be more valuable.

00:25:22.020 It can make you, it can give you access to different parts of the world and different people than you would be able to otherwise because so few people can speak well and write well and communicate well and relate well to other people.

00:25:34.920 So just because something isn't as needed as it was 20 years ago, doesn't mean that it doesn't have value and that we shouldn't teach it.

00:25:44.260 Of course.

00:25:45.480 Yeah.

00:25:45.800 I mean, what value do the classics offer?

00:25:49.760 Right?

00:25:50.240 A lot of people look at that and go, it's just not relevant to me, so we shouldn't teach it.

00:25:54.360 And you can go, again, if you ask that question, if you say, where is the value?

00:26:01.960 Look, it's an interesting argument for me to make because it's ultimately going to bring me back to defending the very liberal arts degrees, which I think are so egregiously overpriced right now.

00:26:12.500 Um, but it, it's important, you know, it's important to know things that you don't use.

00:26:20.340 It's important to master things that have no practical application in your life.

00:26:25.540 It's, it's not enough to simply do that.

00:26:28.520 Then you become the art history major who's on the dole.

00:26:31.840 Then you become the poli sci major who's asking if you want fries with that and so forth.

00:26:37.320 Um, so your life has to be a balance, but yeah, I, I would really suggest that the people most responsible for developing AI are probably very good communicators.

00:26:51.620 They're probably very good writers.

00:26:53.100 They probably experienced all the things that allowed them to craft this incredible tool.

00:26:58.360 Now, the people who will come to rely on this tool exclusively and to the detriment of their own growth, well, they're just going to be the batteries in the matrix there.

00:27:13.340 They will, to this guy's point, be, they'll, they'll shed their humanity and, and they'll be the stars in their own versions of idiocracy.

00:27:26.040 Right. And they won't be able to write or think for themselves and they, and they won't be able to quote a sonnet and they won't be able to reflect on the strange compression and extension of time after a lockdown.

00:27:38.520 And they might just think that two plus two equals five if the computer says so.

00:27:42.540 And if it makes them feel good.

00:27:43.880 And besides who are we to, who is anyone to, to challenge my own truth?

00:27:49.540 I'm living in my own little, right?

00:27:51.400 So look, if we have to go through all of that silliness only to come out on the other side and realize back to delayed gratification that, that anything worth knowing takes time, anything worth, worth feeling takes time.

00:28:07.840 So these, uh, my granddad used to say shortcuts lead to long delays.

00:28:15.340 I, I think that, I think I, I see that now everywhere I look.

00:28:21.220 And so if AI is here, AI is coming, there's no doubt about it.

00:28:29.140 The question is, are we going to see it and use it as a tool or are, are we going to embrace it as a, as a crutch?

00:28:37.860 Are, are you worried about the future of work as it relates to the dominance of AI?

00:28:59.040 Yeah, I'm not, I'm not totally freaked out about it because I don't have a crystal ball either.

00:29:05.560 And I think 20 years from now, I don't think the species is going to, to just shed the humanity the way this guy's talking about.

00:29:14.840 Right. It's Yuval Harari, by the way. That's his name. Big W.E.F. guy.

00:29:18.720 Yeah. Didn't he do, uh, Sapiens?

00:29:22.240 Is he the guy that wrote that book? Big, thick book?

00:29:25.520 Maybe. I don't know. Bree can, Bree can check it for us and let me know.

00:29:28.440 Pretty sure. Look.

00:29:29.940 Yes, he is.

00:29:30.760 All right.

00:29:31.440 There you go.

00:29:31.880 So that guy's smart.

00:29:33.320 Yeah.

00:29:33.580 You know, I, I, I, I can't compete with his curriculum via Tay, uh, but you know, I just wonder how many people have outsmarted themselves.

00:29:47.420 I, I, I don't know. I, I believe that we're, we're only what? 2,100 generations old as a species.

00:29:57.420 We haven't been here a long time. Uh, it seems like every new generation though, like we said, thinks that this is it. This is it. We've, we've never seen times like this, but every one of those 2,100 generations have said the same thing.

00:30:12.160 Because at some point they were at the absolute height of human understanding, but what have we done? I mean, what have we done with this incredible understanding?

00:30:25.680 Like the greatest medical minds in the world thought it best to drain the blood out of George Washington when he was suffering at the end of his life to fix him.

00:30:37.480 That, that, that didn't work.

00:30:38.680 There was a time when we were pretty sure lobotomies were the, were the right way to go.

00:30:43.260 Right.

00:30:43.720 You know, we've been long on certainty for as long as we've been on the planet and time and time and time again, um, we learn new things.

00:30:54.800 And that's just a polite way of saying we've been proven wrong.

00:30:59.200 We were pretty sure.

00:31:01.060 We were pretty sure the sun was going around the earth.

00:31:04.080 Yeah.

00:31:04.620 Yeah.

00:31:04.920 And in fact, we even burned a few guys alive.

00:31:07.180 Sorry, Galileo, you know, wrong on that one.

00:31:10.280 Oops.

00:31:10.880 We were so sure.

00:31:12.360 Yeah.

00:31:13.160 And so, yeah, the thing I, the thing I think about and worry about and, and, and look for is who sounds the most certain.

00:31:24.800 And I used to, I used to be comforted by certain sounding people.

00:31:30.360 And now I have to admit, I'm, I'm more skeptical of them because it seems like we've had a front row seat in the last three or four years of this weird compressed time.

00:31:42.280 Right.

00:31:42.620 To see certain sounding people be proven dead wrong.

00:31:48.780 Normally it takes decades, but we're seeing it like, oops.

00:31:53.980 Yeah.

00:31:54.500 Like real fast, same day.

00:31:56.660 Right.

00:31:57.020 Yep.

00:31:57.500 Somebody else brought the receipts.

00:31:58.920 You're wrong.

00:31:59.800 Yeah.

00:32:00.480 So that's amazing.

00:32:02.180 Now this guy, you're already, he, it's interesting to talk about.

00:32:06.600 It's interesting to talk with certainty about the uncertainty two decades hence.

00:32:12.620 Yeah.

00:32:13.280 Because you can't be wrong.

00:32:15.140 No one can say you're, you're wrong about that.

00:32:17.740 But I'll tell you this, I narrate this show called how the universe works.

00:32:22.700 I've been doing it for decades.

00:32:25.640 And by the way, spoiler alert, we still don't know, but, but that's the name of the show.

00:32:31.200 And it's great.

00:32:32.460 And it's filled with scientists and physicists and mathematicians because thanks to Hubble and some other telescopes, the amount of information coming back to us is so breathtaking.

00:32:44.880 And it's so mind bending that I often find myself in the booth with a new script in front of me.

00:32:53.980 And the producer from, from the UK will be like, um, yes, we have to go back and redo a couple of things from, um, two months ago.

00:33:04.580 There've been some changes.

00:33:05.700 Yeah.

00:33:06.120 Isn't that amazing?

00:33:07.080 It's amazing.

00:33:08.060 But Allie, the changes are like, oh, um, remember when we said there were 200 billion galaxies in the known universe?

00:33:19.740 Turns out, thanks to some new photos and some new triangulation, there's actually 2 trillion.

00:33:27.580 Yeah.

00:33:28.560 Oh, big news.

00:33:30.420 So I narrate it and I sound as certain as I can when I say it.

00:33:34.120 Yeah.

00:33:34.620 Right?

00:33:35.040 2 trillion galaxies in the known universe.

00:33:38.460 Think of it.

00:33:39.300 And I, we spend paragraphs and very expensive graphics illustrating the hugeness of this.

00:33:45.900 We're literally looking back through time near the moment.

00:33:51.600 The big bang was, was the thing and concluding the best minds in physics are concluding that

00:33:58.420 they're 2 trillion universes.

00:33:59.780 Two months later, I'm back in the booth.

00:34:02.760 Turns out it's more like 150 billion.

00:34:06.740 In other words, Mike, you're just a narrator, but you were off by roughly 2 trillion.

00:34:11.780 You were like, which is huge.

00:34:14.240 It's a big number.

00:34:16.880 But doesn't that make you, I don't know if you've spoken before about your faith, but

00:34:23.480 doesn't that make you realize how finite and limited we are and that it's very likely that

00:34:29.840 all of this has been created by someone who is infinite, an intelligent designer who knew

00:34:34.660 better than we did?

00:34:35.520 What it does for me is it reminds me of the importance of humility and it reminds me in a

00:34:46.220 certain sounding world, why do our newscasters work so hard to sound so certain?

00:34:52.240 Why do they look into the lens the way I'm looking into this now and work so hard?

00:34:57.100 Why do all the spokesmen out there say, take it from me?

00:35:00.480 Everywhere we look, there is a conspicuous lack of humility and that show and science in

00:35:10.580 general, what it makes me think of is where did the humility go?

00:35:17.020 It's okay not to be certain of how many galaxies there are in the known universe.

00:35:22.920 It's okay to believe an intelligent designer is the ultimate architect of all of it.

00:35:30.520 It's okay to doubt that too, but it's not okay to be so damn sure.

00:35:36.380 And it's that, what are you selling that informs you with so much certainty?

00:35:45.240 And I realize this is tricky, right?

00:35:47.620 Because if you're talking to a person of faith, their faith is rooted in certainty.

00:35:52.760 And to question that is to question a deeply personal decision.

00:35:56.820 But the Bible describes faith as the assurance of things hoped for, which I think that that

00:36:03.440 is like a really good definition of faith.

00:36:07.000 It's not confidence in ourselves, how I would define it.

00:36:10.900 It's actually that humility that you're talking about, that, wow, I'm clearly finite.

00:36:15.180 I'm clearly limited.

00:36:17.200 And if the top scientists are off by trillions and trillions, and they're telling me that they

00:36:24.380 know maybe there's a God that transcends all of our knowledge, it's got to come from something

00:36:30.780 infinite.

00:36:31.900 If our smartest people are still limited in their capacity to understand it.

00:36:37.660 And so, yeah, faith is the assurance of things hoped for, but it's not confidence in my ability

00:36:42.260 to know that there is a God.

00:36:44.480 It's confidence that I am so limited that the only explanation for all of this has to

00:36:51.260 be someone bigger and better and wiser and more creative than I am.

00:36:58.480 That's how I'd describe it.

00:36:59.620 My friends in the science world, the reasonable ones, I think, would agree with all of that

00:37:06.000 right up to only.

00:37:07.300 They would say, no, no, that's not the only explanation, but it is an explanation and it

00:37:12.340 is an explanation worthy of great exploration for sure.

00:37:18.800 But the minute you use words like only, then you're in a box and you're in a place where

00:37:27.080 there is no other option.

00:37:28.680 And, you know, I mean, I don't know how far we want to go in this direction, but like free

00:37:35.180 agentry is a, is a big part of faith, right?

00:37:39.140 You have to come to it through your own, maybe science is the wrong word, but through your own

00:37:45.260 journey, through your own exploration.

00:37:47.720 You asked earlier, how do you teach delayed gratification?

00:37:51.140 You could have just as easily asked, how do you teach faith?

00:37:53.980 Faith, you can't, in my view, what you can do is talk about it and you can present the

00:38:01.680 evidence.

00:38:02.720 There's a great book, Josh McDowell, I think, wrote it.

00:38:06.820 The Evidence Demands a Verdict.

00:38:09.220 Great title, you know, could have just as easily been a science book.

00:38:13.660 So in the end, I think that most people will put their faith in something because we have

00:38:27.040 to, otherwise we're living in that world where we're not sure the sun is coming up.

00:38:31.880 We're living in Harari's world where, hey, we don't know what's going to happen in 20 years, 0.96

00:38:35.880 so what's the point?

00:38:37.040 Yeah.

00:38:37.300 Right, so you can't, you can't be untethered or unmoored from everything.

00:38:45.380 The question today is, where do you put your faith and to what degree?

00:38:50.860 Do you put it in the politicians?

00:38:52.640 Do you put it in our elected officials?

00:38:54.600 Do you put it in our media?

00:38:57.780 What institution do you still have faith in?

00:39:00.640 Is it medicine?

00:39:01.340 Because I can fill a room with a lot of certain sounding doctors who just can't seem to agree

00:39:08.060 on everything from vaccines to mercury to autism.

00:39:13.840 We can go down the list.

00:39:15.600 So, you know, I try and be good humored about it because it's almost like a British sketch comedy.

00:39:24.360 When you imagine 330 million people desperate for the playbook we were talking about before,

00:39:30.800 desperate not to screw their kids up with bad advice, desperate to get everything right,

00:39:35.640 and everywhere they look are certain sounding experts who can't agree with each other,

00:39:44.460 accusing people who are skeptical and simply looking for the truth of being deniers.

00:39:51.880 I mean, so if you don't fall in line, you're not a good-natured skeptic who's simply not convinced yet.

00:40:01.240 You're just a denier.

00:40:02.980 You're faithless, potentially.

00:40:07.240 So, the country wants a playbook, in my view, and I don't know how to help them in that regard,

00:40:15.980 other than to say there are a couple things that I still believe are universally true,

00:40:21.580 regardless of where you put your faith.

00:40:24.300 And one of those things is work ethic.

00:40:26.420 One of those things is curiosity.

00:40:30.380 You know, you don't have to be faithful or faithless to be curious.

00:40:35.700 Because you can be genuinely engaged in a search for something bigger than yourself.

00:40:42.840 And if you're willing to work hard at it, and if you're patient,

00:40:47.060 then you're going to arrive at something that probably feels like the truth.

00:40:52.780 Is it?

00:40:54.320 I don't know.

00:40:55.760 I haven't got that far in the book yet.

00:40:57.520 But that, honestly, it's such a great point you made about the fact that this guy is looking 20 years ahead,

00:41:08.880 and because he can't see the future, concludes something dark.

00:41:15.640 You could just as easily look just as far ahead and see just as little,

00:41:22.900 and conclude from that adventure and joy and wonder.

00:41:31.860 This is the life we have.

00:41:33.920 We don't know how it's going to end.

00:41:35.720 We know it's going to end, but we don't know when, and we don't know how.

00:41:38.680 We don't know the specifics of what's coming.

00:41:41.540 So in a really general way, we have to decide to either be fundamentally freaked out

00:41:48.980 by all this tech we don't understand and all the uncertainty that looms

00:41:53.600 or in on the joke.

00:41:58.240 Fundamentally like, okay, we're a miracle.

00:42:01.240 The odds of us sitting right here as we are and talking, the fact that we exist,

00:42:05.960 the fact that we're walking around fog in a mirror, living in this country in this time.

00:42:12.340 Fundamentally, you know, we've said some very pessimistic things in the last hour,

00:42:15.680 but there's never been a better time to be alive.

00:42:18.980 There's never been a better place to be alive.

00:42:21.780 There's never been a more interesting time to have curiosity rewarded than right now.

00:42:40.140 You know, that's something that I love.

00:42:42.060 I know that I keep going back to like the faith conversation,

00:42:45.300 but as you were talking, I thought about so many things.

00:42:47.960 That's one thing that I love about the Bible is that, you know, there's a lot of debate

00:42:53.900 over whether the Bible is inspired by God.

00:42:56.320 Of course, I believe that it is.

00:42:57.780 And some people would say, no, it's just written by man.

00:42:59.840 But what you see over and over again in so many of the stories is man's certainty in his

00:43:05.420 own strength and his own wisdom and his own infinite ability to succeed by himself and

00:43:11.520 God coming in and saying, not so fast.

00:43:13.560 Not so fast, Sparky.

00:43:14.740 Yeah.

00:43:15.460 That when you think about the Tower of Babel, let us create this big tower to glorify ourselves 0.94

00:43:21.020 and God not allowing it to happen.

00:43:23.300 That's part of why I think the Bible is so believable, because if it were just PR for human

00:43:27.680 beings, the people who wrote it would have made themselves look a lot better.

00:43:32.500 Yeah.

00:43:32.760 But that's the beauty of the Bible is that it really all is about how awesome God is, 1.00

00:43:37.440 how infinite he is, and how weak and silly and stupid we can be. 1.00

00:43:42.740 And of course, in all this pessimism, when I hear someone like this guy, I'm like, well, 1.00

00:43:47.760 we've never known the future.

00:43:49.040 However, to me, my assurance and the assurance of a lot of people in the audience is that

00:43:53.660 I'm not in charge.

00:43:55.940 We have a saying, all we can do is the next right thing in faith with excellence and for

00:44:00.740 the glory of God in any given moment.

00:44:03.240 I mean, that's the only thing I can control.

00:44:05.520 I don't have the capacity to control or care about every single thing that's going on in

00:44:09.760 the world right now, certainly not in 20 years.

00:44:13.340 But I can trust that God has put me on this tiny speck of eternity to make the world around

00:44:20.100 me better for his glory, which includes hard work.

00:44:23.080 That's a very biblical concept to work hard and to cultivate and to maximize and to beautify.

00:44:29.840 And when I make things smaller like that, and when I remember my own personal responsibility

00:44:34.820 to my family, my community, whatever resources God has given me, things become a lot less scary.

00:44:41.680 And I think that's part of the beauty of what you do is that you tell people, focus on what

00:44:48.360 your hands can do.

00:44:49.880 Focus on what your mind can do, what your resources can do.

00:44:54.000 That can make a huge ripple effect and a big difference.

00:44:57.260 But instead of only focusing on what's out there and what random WEF guy is saying, focusing

00:45:03.620 on what is in front of us and what we can do to make things better, there's a lot of comfort

00:45:09.020 in that.

00:45:09.400 Um, so it's Micro Macro.

00:45:13.560 Yeah.

00:45:14.280 Um, we were joking.

00:45:15.800 Micro.

00:45:16.080 I thought you were saying, that could be, that's like a whole play on words.

00:45:18.980 I thought you were saying your name.

00:45:20.280 Well, I.

00:45:20.900 But now I see.

00:45:22.200 Micro.

00:45:22.660 I got it.

00:45:23.120 It's Micro Macro.

00:45:23.840 Yeah.

00:45:24.040 We were talking before somebody said action, um, about, about names, you know?

00:45:29.980 And I said, it's, it's weird.

00:45:32.260 Most of my friends call me micro.

00:45:34.420 We all call each other by our first names, Frank, John, Steve, Billy, micro.

00:45:39.980 Um, and so in my business and in the foundation, uh, micro macro has become a turn of phrase

00:45:47.200 and I use it whenever I'm dealing with something that's bigger than my arms can encircle.

00:45:55.680 Two trillion galaxies, right?

00:45:57.980 It's macro.

00:45:58.880 It's big.

00:45:59.840 AI.

00:46:00.700 It's macro.

00:46:01.340 20 years down the road, macro uncertainty in general, macro, the collapse of our institutions,

00:46:07.520 macro.

00:46:08.820 Micro is exactly as what you've described.

00:46:11.600 It's, it's one person at a time.

00:46:14.000 It's one skill at a time.

00:46:16.480 It's one foot in front of the next.

00:46:19.160 And in small successes, you know, you work your way to something that looks like enlightenment,

00:46:26.180 hopefully.

00:46:27.600 Uh, and so, yeah, I, I know my limitations.

00:46:31.340 I'm not a macro guy.

00:46:32.880 And I know that when I feel like I'm, I'm doing the right thing, it's, it's when I can

00:46:38.560 chart it and see it, this school in Vegas, I think is the right thing.

00:46:44.320 I met those kids and, and we'll, we'll be able to track them.

00:46:48.960 We'll be able to tell their stories that, that makes sense to my brain.

00:46:53.100 Um, I can't go too much beyond that without getting into that weird, I'll start making

00:46:58.540 predictions.

00:46:59.040 Well, let me tell you about 20 years from now.

00:47:00.960 I don't know what I'm talking about.

00:47:02.380 You could have a podcast, your cohost, if you could find someone named macro, it could

00:47:07.500 be micro macro.

00:47:08.500 And you could talk about the big things and the small things.

00:47:10.680 I'm just pitching it.

00:47:11.760 No, you actually, I've got, I wrote it up, not as a podcast, but as a series of documentaries

00:47:16.900 for the discovery channel years ago.

00:47:18.960 I like it.

00:47:19.640 They didn't. 1.00

00:47:20.040 Oh, darn, darn. 0.99

00:47:22.960 Well, maybe one day. 1.00

00:47:24.280 Too cerebral, micro.

00:47:25.240 Yeah.

00:47:26.500 Okay.

00:47:26.920 Well, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us today.

00:47:30.000 Where would you want to direct people?

00:47:32.460 If they want to find out more about your program, scholarships, all that good stuff, where can

00:47:36.160 they go?

00:47:37.320 Microworks.org is the place to apply for a work ethic scholarship.

00:47:42.020 We'll have a million bucks or so available through April.

00:47:46.380 And we'll probably do it again later in the year.

00:47:48.060 We try and do two million a year and that's there now.

00:47:51.000 But sensing who your audience is, and I confess, I'm not 100% sure who listens to this program,

00:47:59.000 but I'm getting a sense that they, I'm getting a sense that they would love a program I do

00:48:05.360 on TBN called The Story Behind the Story.

00:48:08.880 And we're in season five now.

00:48:11.560 And these are recreations of short stories I wrote over the years about things you didn't

00:48:21.120 know about famous people you've heard of, like in the old Paul Harvey style.

00:48:26.400 They've turned into a thing and people really like them.

00:48:29.780 And each week I sit down with the guy who runs that network and he talks about the biblical

00:48:34.720 and scriptural underpinnings buried in the story.

00:48:39.660 He basically tells me why he thinks I wrote the story.

00:48:42.880 And then I tell him the truth about why I wrote it.

00:48:45.340 And then we discuss them in terms of like a morality play.

00:48:48.780 People seem to like it.

00:48:49.900 I bet your audience would too.

00:48:51.140 Oh, I think so too.

00:48:52.440 Okay.

00:48:52.740 Last question.

00:48:53.940 I said that I took in some questions from my Instagram audience.

00:48:57.020 We didn't get into all of them, but a persistent question is, what would it take for you to run

00:49:02.280 for president?

00:49:03.540 How many people follow you on Instagram?

00:49:06.360 550,000.

00:49:07.300 That's pretty good.

00:49:07.860 Um, it would take a lot, you know, actually that's not true.

00:49:13.940 It would be easy running for president would be easy and probably fun, but modesty aside,

00:49:21.080 Allie, the risk of winning is simply too high.

00:49:25.640 Yeah.

00:49:28.000 Then what?

00:49:29.720 Then, then what?

00:49:31.140 I mean, I, I, I don't know.

00:49:34.000 I, the only reason I'm, I would like kind of consider public office now is because I'm,

00:49:42.920 I'm older than I've ever been.

00:49:44.420 And, and, and I know I couldn't be accused of grabbing and clutching and, and striving.

00:49:52.860 I, I don't understand.

00:49:54.980 There's a lot I don't understand, but how in the world did we get okay with people getting

00:50:01.160 into office and never leaving?

00:50:02.580 Yeah.

00:50:03.920 I mean, what is that?

00:50:07.100 What is that?

00:50:08.600 Like the whole, the whole plan was, yeah, you run your farm, you run your business, you raise

00:50:13.480 your family, you care about your country, you're a good citizen, give them four years, maybe

00:50:18.160 eight.

00:50:19.080 You know, if you're really called, look, even George Washington took a pass on the, what,

00:50:23.860 the third term or the fourth, what he was like, I'm out.

00:50:26.600 Yeah.

00:50:26.860 Nobody, nobody leaves anymore.

00:50:29.960 You know, Mike Gallagher left not long ago.

00:50:32.360 Good for him.

00:50:33.300 Four years and out.

00:50:35.360 But nobody leaves.

00:50:37.020 Yeah.

00:50:37.400 It's amazing to me.

00:50:38.880 I guess, I guess because they, they crave the certainty and maybe the power.

00:50:45.420 Maybe they're, maybe they're just sure that there are 2 trillion universes out there, galaxies

00:50:51.360 or whatever it is.

00:50:52.420 Yeah.

00:50:52.840 They're just not going to let go of it.

00:50:53.980 They're sure.

00:50:54.760 Yeah.

00:50:55.380 Maybe so.

00:50:55.980 Well, if you ever change your mind, you've got at least a few people in the relatable audience

00:51:00.360 who would vote for you.

00:51:01.500 So.

00:51:01.980 Excellent.

00:51:02.500 There you go.

00:51:03.280 Good.

00:51:03.460 Thank you so much, Mike.

00:51:04.460 I really appreciate it.

00:51:05.480 Always fun.

00:51:05.980 Thank you.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - March 25, 2024

Ep 973 ｜ What Does Mike Rowe Think About God？｜ Guest： Mike Rowe

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - March 25, 2024

Ep 973 ｜ What Does Mike Rowe Think About God？ ｜ Guest： Mike Rowe

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

Ep 973 ｜ What Does Mike Rowe Think About God？｜ Guest： Mike Rowe