Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - April 04, 2024


Ep 980 ｜ The Secret, Ethical Alternative to IVF ｜ Guest： Catie VanDamme


Episode Stats

Length

1 hour and 3 minutes

Words per Minute

160.30281

Word Count

10,150

Sentence Count

690

Misogynist Sentences

26

Hate Speech Sentences

14


Summary

Katie Van Damme was diagnosed with Endometriosis when she was a teenager. At the age of 29, doctors told her that the only way for her to have a child would be to go through IVF. But she decided to go a different route. She is here today to talk about what she learned and what God taught her through her fertility journey, and what eventually led her to conceiving her baby boy naturally.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Katie Van Damme was diagnosed with endometriosis when she was a teenager, and then at the age of 29, doctors told her that the only way for her to have a child would be to go through IVF, but she decided to go a different route.
00:00:14.660 She is here today to talk about what she learned and what God taught her through her fertility journey and what eventually led her to conceiving her baby boy naturally.
00:00:26.500 This is an amazing conversation. You've got to listen to the whole thing. You are going to be so educated, but also so encouraged by her testimony. Without further ado, here is Katie.
00:00:47.780 Katie, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. I really appreciate it.
00:00:51.840 Yeah, thank you.
00:00:52.820 Can you just tell everyone who you are and what you do?
00:00:55.440 Yeah, so I'm Katie Van Damme. I am married to my husband, Kevin, and we have a son named Thomas. He's one year old.
00:01:06.440 I am an LPC, so a licensed professional counselor in Texas, and I've been doing that for a couple years. It's really a great opportunity to get to sit with people.
00:01:19.140 And I first saw your story in The Federalist, and the headline is, Fertility Doctors Refuse to Treat Me Holistically Because IVF Is Their Cash Cow.
00:01:32.360 Okay, so this came out on March 18th. So just take us back. Tell us about your story and how you first interacted with the doctors who tried to get you to go through IVF.
00:01:43.960 Yeah, yeah. So my husband and I got married in 2020, and we knew that we wanted to start a family eventually.
00:01:53.460 I, back in my late teens, early 20s, I found out I had endometriosis, which is a disease that affects women and their fertility, all that good stuff.
00:02:09.460 Very painful and wound up having, to go through lots of different things with doctors and wound up having surgery.
00:02:18.460 Knew that that would be something to consider when we were having children or when we were wanting to.
00:02:25.020 IVF?
00:02:25.900 Sorry. No. The diagnosis of having endometriosis could possibly.
00:02:32.860 Oh, you needed to consider that, that that could make it more difficult to have children.
00:02:36.940 Yes, more difficult to have children. Yeah. So knew that I needed to be maybe cautiously optimistic in that we might run into some things.
00:02:47.920 We got married and I thought, you know what, because I know that I have this health condition, I would like to just go and meet with a provider and talk to them about, you know, my husband and I want to start trying eventually.
00:02:59.000 Is there anything that I need to be doing? I think it was my, like, just being so naive and young and not really having a lot of, obviously, I don't have a medical degree.
00:03:09.740 I'm just wanting to go and ask some questions about my own health and of my own reproductive health.
00:03:17.920 So I just kind of threw a stick and found a fertility specialist in the city.
00:03:28.040 There's a million everywhere. And went in not knowing what I was going to be getting myself into.
00:03:36.380 I thought we would be able to talk and discuss and just consider.
00:03:40.900 And having my husband and I hadn't even started trying yet.
00:03:43.960 We got into our first appointment and they ran some, like, relative blood work, really normal stuff, and came back saying that some levels of my ovarian reserve count, it's labeled AMH levels is what I think doctors will tell you.
00:04:08.720 So it's a hormone level that tells you how many eggs you could have or will have.
00:04:15.940 I say that because it's used kind of as a scare tactic. It was used as a scare tactic.
00:04:20.860 I think that was my experience of, okay, your numbers are kind of low.
00:04:26.720 There was really, being the kind of person that I am, I was like, let's talk about that.
00:04:32.140 I'd like to, like, tell me a little bit more about that.
00:04:34.440 I love my research and love to hear, okay, if you're going to tell me that this is going to be a problem, like, what are my options?
00:04:43.140 This is where my, like, naive part came in of where the doctor that I signed up to see just took me on this path of, well, this is a really huge issue that your numbers are low.
00:05:00.780 And really it was the sense of you needed to start IVF a couple years ago.
00:05:07.360 So, like, you're already late creating a sense of urgency in you of if you ever want to have children, then, wow, we better get on it right now.
00:05:18.580 And probably made you feel like there are no alternatives to this.
00:05:22.880 Oh, yeah. No alternatives whatsoever.
00:05:24.900 And now, I remember, I'm kind of feeling it again right now, just like I remember being in that office and just having, like, a gut punch of, wait, hold on a second.
00:05:32.780 But now, looking back after everything that I'll get into, it's just so funny that I think something that's really important that I do want people to hear from my story is the scare tactic.
00:05:48.380 Like, I really understand now of when we look at how many embryos there are on ice, I think that Jennifer Law talked about when she was on, makes a lot of sense to me because of the urgency that I was pushed, like, the urgency that was pushed towards you need to start this process right now.
00:06:09.300 You should have started a long time ago if you want to have a child.
00:06:12.320 There's, like, a ticking clock, we need to do this, when in the reality that's not the case.
00:06:21.180 How old were you at the time that you were having this conversation?
00:06:22.940 I was 29.
00:06:24.080 29, okay.
00:06:24.800 And we had not even actually started trying yet.
00:06:29.060 Right.
00:06:29.480 We had never even actually—
00:06:30.280 Was this in 2020, 2021?
00:06:31.820 21.
00:06:32.380 Okay.
00:06:32.880 Yeah.
00:06:33.200 Yeah.
00:06:34.460 So, I probably spent maybe 10 minutes in his office, and he just started to go round and round about the whole process.
00:06:42.320 What was most jarring to me is the push towards making embryos right away.
00:06:54.340 It was like, I went in for blood work, and all of a sudden, I was supposed to be scheduling appointments to come back to start the process.
00:07:03.440 Again, the pushed pressure.
00:07:05.380 And I remember him talking about—it was all such a blur, but I remember him talking about, like, embryo harvesting.
00:07:22.580 And, again, have you—I've only been in this office for maybe, like, seven minutes.
00:07:26.620 Yeah.
00:07:27.300 And he's already talking about that.
00:07:29.300 Like, your head is spinning.
00:07:30.460 Uh-huh.
00:07:30.960 And so, I kept trying to interrupt and, like, can we please talk about some other—like, if my body's not making these hormones correctly, like, isn't there something we could do?
00:07:42.460 Right.
00:07:42.560 I know there's, like, probably some procedures or anything like that.
00:07:45.860 But it was kept reverting right back to, well, time.
00:07:52.440 There's time on our hands that we really need to get going here.
00:07:56.000 Anyways.
00:07:56.200 So, basically, saying because, apparently, your levels of AMH, you said, were low, that could perhaps indicate that the availability of healthy eggs is low.
00:08:10.200 Uh-huh.
00:08:10.400 So, he was saying kind of, okay, well, the more time we spend not creating these embryos, the more difficult it will be to be able to harvest your eggs and get the healthy embryos.
00:08:20.600 So, he's like, okay, it's basically now or never you're caring as a newlywed 29-year-old, right?
00:08:38.960 So, when he's saying all that, okay, let's go, let's go, let's get these embryos.
00:08:43.060 Uh-huh.
00:08:43.360 And you're trying to interrupt, like, how does that appointment end?
00:08:46.000 So, he started talking about embryo harvesting, and that was in the moment I just felt this, like, hold on a second.
00:08:55.820 You're saying human embryo.
00:08:58.420 Like, can you explain to me more about what that is?
00:09:03.140 And, like, we're going to be putting them on ice, and you're talking to me about, like, the rights that I have to discard those if I would like to or not.
00:09:11.340 So, he went right into all of that.
00:09:13.440 Right into it.
00:09:14.120 And so, he really started to fumble around the, like, what is an embryo?
00:09:21.920 It's what I get to decide, all of these things.
00:09:24.640 And as he just kept talking, I was like, okay, thank you for your time.
00:09:28.760 I need to, I have a lot to consider.
00:09:31.680 And so, I ended the appointment and was handed a packet for financial responsibilities of, like, how much IVF would be.
00:09:40.860 Yeah.
00:09:41.100 So, that was my first appointment.
00:09:43.800 So, I thought, okay, I want to go get a second opinion.
00:09:48.020 Yeah.
00:09:48.240 So, was he, that first doctor, did he explain to you, like, how you would go through the IVF process, the stimulating and retrieving the eggs, the freezing of the embryos, the cryopreservation, the transfer of the embryos, or I guess before that, deciding which embryos are healthy, how many to get boys, girls.
00:10:11.100 Like, did he go through all of that with you, too, in that first appointment?
00:10:15.980 Yes.
00:10:16.640 Within probably the next 10 minutes.
00:10:19.080 Yeah.
00:10:19.600 He got into, like, the epigenetics of it.
00:10:23.040 And, like, if I wanted more girl embryos, if I wanted male, you know, all these things.
00:10:29.000 So dystopian.
00:10:30.400 Oh, totally.
00:10:31.580 And so, I think he could sense my, like, I cannot believe you're talking about this right now.
00:10:38.080 Right.
00:10:38.220 You just went over my blood work.
00:10:40.860 And I'll have you, my hormone levels were not even, like, we're not talking bottom of the barrel here.
00:10:47.560 Yeah.
00:10:47.700 They were just low-ish for my age.
00:10:49.940 Yeah, right.
00:10:51.060 And did you know anything before going in about IVF, or was this all kind of new information for you?
00:10:58.320 It was all so new.
00:10:59.900 Okay.
00:11:00.180 And I also know, I was thinking about that today, how I think my, like, lack of knowledge did not match up with, I don't know if this is, you're a millennial, right?
00:11:15.840 I think we're the exact same age.
00:11:17.460 Okay.
00:11:17.620 If you were 29 in 2021.
00:11:19.500 And 32 right now.
00:11:20.380 Yeah, me too.
00:11:20.840 Okay, yeah.
00:11:21.960 So, I don't know if this was your experience, but IVF, like, wasn't really a thing when we were younger.
00:11:27.680 I don't remember hearing, like, oh, I'm an IVF baby.
00:11:30.540 But then when we started to get older, they were like, this is your options.
00:11:34.800 And I don't know about you, I don't know if I necessarily fed into this, but in our culture, there was this be a girl boss and put your, I know that outside of, like, a Christian culture, maybe sometimes it feeds into that too, there's this put your motherhood on hold.
00:11:51.560 Like, go fight for a career, you know, go do all that.
00:11:54.580 Like, you can always become a mom, but you're, like, PR.
00:11:57.680 Your job will only last for, which is, like, the opposite.
00:12:01.880 Opposite, yeah.
00:12:02.620 And so, I bring that up because I think when I started to become more of, like, a reproductive age, IVF started to be this, like, buzzword of, like, it's always an option.
00:12:14.760 And it was just, like, presented as, I definitely thought this way before a few years ago, as just, like, morally neutral.
00:12:23.440 It's just an option.
00:12:25.020 I had no idea, like you, what actually went on in the selection of the embryos, what had to go on in women's bodies.
00:12:33.220 I just thought, well, this is just another way for people to have kids who want to have kids.
00:12:38.080 And that was it.
00:12:39.520 Yeah.
00:12:39.740 That's all I thought about.
00:12:40.980 Yeah.
00:12:41.820 Know of the details or the moral dilemma that you have to make these decisions about.
00:12:47.580 Okay, if you put 20 embryos away for these procedures, what do you do after?
00:12:58.440 Yeah.
00:12:58.600 And you want to have maybe one or two kids.
00:13:00.540 Right.
00:13:00.800 Or the, I think this is something that was more shocking to me as I started to consider my options.
00:13:13.000 I don't know if you've ever noticed, but the algorithm on Instagram is really good at, like, knowing exactly what you're going through.
00:13:19.400 Oh, yeah.
00:13:19.920 Totally.
00:13:20.500 It's pretty creepy.
00:13:21.060 But I guess because I had been searching some fertility stuff, all these things started popping up on my For You page.
00:13:28.920 And I started to get all these accounts of girls our age going through the process of IVF.
00:13:39.200 And I would look at their profiles.
00:13:40.560 And I don't know if you've ever noticed or ever seen, but in their bios, they would have listed, you know, I'm on round four, five, six of IVF.
00:13:52.240 They would have either marked with, like, a red X or an angel baby emoji to mark how many miscarriages they've had.
00:14:06.200 Wow.
00:14:06.620 And I think that was so shocking to me.
00:14:10.920 I know that was so shocking to me to see as I was trying to, like, wrap my head around what is, what have we been told are our options?
00:14:18.220 And then I'm looking at all these accounts of these girls documenting what they have to put their bodies through with all the injections, all the hormones.
00:14:26.060 And then the amount of loss that I don't think, apart from knowing what IVF was, I don't think I ever was aware of how much actual loss women our age are going through.
00:14:43.360 They're being sold this, we can make you a baby at all costs.
00:14:48.840 Let's do it.
00:14:50.200 And then they're going through three, four, five miscarriages.
00:14:54.940 Or they're staying.
00:14:56.100 After they start.
00:14:57.300 After they start.
00:14:58.140 Yeah, I'm sorry.
00:14:58.920 After they start IVF.
00:15:00.200 Or they feel like they have to stay stuck at a provider because they've been given this almost, like, hope or maybe even, like, a gambling high of, like, okay, we tried this one round.
00:15:16.220 It didn't work.
00:15:16.780 Let's try again.
00:15:17.820 Yeah.
00:15:18.220 Let's try again.
00:15:18.840 And they've invested so much money into it.
00:15:22.580 And also, what I'm about to say, I'm not saying characterizes everyone or even most people who have gone through IVF.
00:15:29.980 But you do have to consider that those that you're talking about that have created Instagram accounts based on this, this has become a brand.
00:15:37.640 And it's become a money-making opportunity.
00:15:40.880 And it is really difficult to forego that.
00:15:43.820 If you have made money off of sharing your IVF journey and that's what people know you as and you've commercialized that experience, you've basically commercialized the trauma that these children have gone through by freezing them and discarding them, then, you know, it's hard to go back on that.
00:16:01.780 Yeah.
00:16:02.100 And so that just makes it even more complicated for some of the people who are kind of publicizing their journey.
00:16:08.100 Right.
00:16:13.820 So tell me then about going to the second doctor.
00:16:23.460 You immediately knew, which, by the way, I'm impressed.
00:16:25.760 I'm so impressed that having so little knowledge about the IVF process like I did, like most of us did, you still like the Holy Spirit was still pricking your heart.
00:16:38.700 And you had enough of an ethical and moral foundation to hear human embryo, epigenetics, and all of that stuff and think, I'm not so sure about that.
00:16:47.880 Yeah.
00:16:48.100 Because I hear a lot of women say, well, just the sound in my head, the voice in my head telling me, but you want to become a mom, but you want to become a mom.
00:16:57.240 Yeah.
00:16:57.600 Is so much louder than any questions or convictions that you might have.
00:17:02.220 Yeah.
00:17:02.400 So, I mean, I'm just very thankful that something, you know, pricked your heart in that office.
00:17:07.960 Yeah.
00:17:08.700 Yeah.
00:17:09.200 I was thinking about that this morning on the way up here of how just the, I remember during that season, the desperation and the despair, I think that can come from, okay, my body's not doing what it's supposed to be.
00:17:28.700 And I have this dream.
00:17:30.980 I want to be a mom.
00:17:32.320 It's not happening for me.
00:17:33.940 There's this medical provider that's saying they can, but they're man, like they're not God.
00:17:41.500 Um, but the internal war, like you're saying of, okay, this man, this person's promising me that they can do this thing for me.
00:17:52.100 Let's go for it.
00:17:53.280 And yeah, it's almost like you, you would have to turn that part of you off if you were to continue to just keep going and going and going, um, with each round.
00:18:04.400 But I, I truly think that, I mean, I can't imagine the pain.
00:18:11.420 I mean, I understand the pain and the desperation of walking through this process and just the uncertainty of, is this going to happen for me?
00:18:22.640 As a believer, having the conviction of having a child is not your God.
00:18:31.820 God is your God.
00:18:35.300 He's the provider of life.
00:18:37.600 If this is his plan for me, um, this will be on his time.
00:18:44.700 But the conviction of, okay, I have these men telling me that I can't, I can't do this.
00:18:51.660 What am I, who am I going to believe?
00:18:54.040 But the fear that's instilled, I can't imagine girls who don't walk, like don't have a relationship with the Lord, don't have an understanding of his sovereignty.
00:19:03.740 Um, I, I get how they could get caught up in going and going for many years.
00:19:09.760 Yeah, especially when you're either desires or your highest authority or, you know, the men in white coats.
00:19:18.220 I think we all have gotten kind of like white coat syndrome where we are intimidated by doctors who make us feel like, oh my gosh, if you don't do this, you're so dumb.
00:19:26.880 And what do you know?
00:19:28.200 Oh, you're going to do your research?
00:19:29.780 Well, I went to medical school.
00:19:31.080 And so it's really easy to be like, well, what do I know?
00:19:33.980 If, you know, they're telling me that this is the path to take, then of course they must be right.
00:19:38.960 But you ended up getting a second opinion.
00:19:41.300 So tell me about that.
00:19:42.760 Yeah.
00:19:43.000 So I wound up getting three opinions.
00:19:45.060 The second one was just a flub.
00:19:46.920 I went in, the guy called me the wrong patient's name and I'm like laying down on the table and he calls me a different patient's name and is like, let's start this new trigger shot.
00:20:00.540 And I'm like, hi, doctor, I am the first time here.
00:20:06.860 This is my first time here.
00:20:07.900 I'm so-and-so.
00:20:08.700 I'm not who you're talking about.
00:20:10.280 And the moment that that happened, I was.
00:20:12.480 Oh, yeah.
00:20:13.420 She talked.
00:20:14.460 I think we did it.
00:20:15.940 I can't remember exactly what it's called, but it's where they run the dye through your ovarian tubes just to see how clear they are.
00:20:23.380 I think it's not HSG, but it's called something else.
00:20:26.420 But anyways, I was like, okay, fine.
00:20:28.700 I'll do that.
00:20:29.380 But like, this gives me pause.
00:20:32.000 The second guy.
00:20:32.800 Okay.
00:20:33.080 So after he was like, oh, you're not who I thought that you were.
00:20:37.480 So if I guess this is neither here nor there.
00:20:41.740 I'm just wondering if like you hadn't corrected him, if he would have just been like, if he would have just given you a shot that wasn't even intended for you.
00:20:49.640 Gosh, it reminds me of the doctor from 30 Rock.
00:20:51.720 If anyone watches 30 Rock.
00:20:54.680 Anyway.
00:20:55.560 Okay.
00:20:55.840 So, but after that, you did get through the appointment and then he suggested doing this to check your ovaries to see really how healthy they were.
00:21:04.680 Yeah.
00:21:05.260 My ovarian tubes is what that was checking.
00:21:08.120 And so those were clear.
00:21:10.380 Those were fine.
00:21:11.240 Okay.
00:21:11.500 Um, but I just, I think the, the first, the first appointment I was like, no, I, I can't, this is a sham.
00:21:20.660 Um, I just kind of started to catch on of like, what are these people doing?
00:21:25.820 Yeah.
00:21:25.960 And this, it felt like a conveyor belt.
00:21:27.980 I remember sitting in the, um, waiting room and there are all these girls around me and it's just like one after the other, after the other.
00:21:35.520 And I had already gotten into like seeing a lot of people's stories on Instagram.
00:21:39.160 And I just was like, I can't.
00:21:40.560 So we went to a third doctor.
00:21:42.000 Um, and that was probably the most jarring experience.
00:21:49.120 Really?
00:21:49.240 Even worse than the first?
00:21:50.800 Yeah.
00:21:51.200 Wow.
00:21:51.780 Yeah.
00:21:52.740 Uh, he took one look at my blood work and sat me down and said, I, and I, I wish I was making this up.
00:22:05.180 I wish, I wish I was misquoting him or maybe caught him on a bad day.
00:22:10.220 I, I do not know, but it was again, the same story of, okay, your blood work is, um, kind of iffy.
00:22:20.300 You should have started IVF a long time ago.
00:22:22.940 Um, but are you sure you even want to go through with this?
00:22:28.540 And I was like, um, I'm sorry.
00:22:30.900 It was during the mask era.
00:22:32.300 So he really could not see during the pandemic.
00:22:34.720 So he really could not see my face.
00:22:36.000 But, um, he was just like, are you sure you want to go through this experience?
00:22:40.580 He said, I am one of the most renowned specialists in the world.
00:22:45.380 So cocky.
00:22:46.720 Um, yeah, I am God.
00:22:49.120 Um, people seek me out from all over the world to make them a baby.
00:22:54.800 And they come to me, they do a million rounds of IVF, spend thousands of dollars for their
00:23:05.120 baby to die.
00:23:06.780 Or they're born with birth defects.
00:23:10.140 I've seen babies born without parts.
00:23:14.440 Like, are you sure you want to go through this type of process?
00:23:17.560 Are you sure you, yeah.
00:23:18.480 Are you sure you want to put your body through this?
00:23:21.180 And are you sure you even want to be a mom?
00:23:23.080 I wish I was, I wish I was joking.
00:23:25.420 Are you sure you even want to be a mom?
00:23:27.480 Why don't you just go travel with your husband?
00:23:30.400 I know so many moms who come back to me after they've had a baby.
00:23:34.960 They're like, this is really hard.
00:23:36.700 I didn't know.
00:23:37.480 I'm like, oh my gosh.
00:23:39.560 I want to pay this doctor a visit.
00:23:42.520 Yeah.
00:23:42.920 Oh, it's taking everything in me not to like actually quote his name.
00:23:47.580 But, um, yeah.
00:23:49.360 And, but then he was saying, are you sure you want to have children?
00:23:52.060 They're really spoiled.
00:23:53.100 I have a really annoying niece.
00:23:55.140 Yeah.
00:23:56.200 So I was like, oh my gosh.
00:23:59.040 So have you, Allie?
00:24:00.260 This is already, this is after, this is the third doctor I've seen.
00:24:03.660 And he said, and he's saying all of this to me.
00:24:05.880 And then I start choking up, but I'm trying to remain calm because I'm like, oh my gosh.
00:24:13.020 He's like, why are you crying?
00:24:16.000 And I just got up and I walked out.
00:24:18.780 I got up and walked out and was like, okay, Lord.
00:24:21.900 What?
00:24:22.300 If I'm having a baby, you are going to have to do it.
00:24:26.360 Yeah.
00:24:26.520 Obviously I already know you're going to do it, but I'm not trusting in these doctors.
00:24:32.160 Wow.
00:24:32.520 I don't even understand what his incentive would be to say those things.
00:24:36.600 Like if he was just like, you know what?
00:24:38.100 I don't need any more business.
00:24:39.720 So I got to like, I got to weed out the ones who don't really want it, take them through
00:24:44.900 like some kind of weird warped initiation.
00:24:48.120 Honestly, it felt, I remember the feeling while he was talking, it felt like I was sitting
00:24:53.520 across from death.
00:24:55.220 Yeah.
00:24:55.720 Like Satan.
00:24:56.280 I think he has seen so much carnage of what he has done at the sake of making money.
00:25:05.900 Right.
00:25:06.340 And playing God.
00:25:07.480 He's desensitized.
00:25:08.340 He's so desensitized.
00:25:09.900 It was like a conversation.
00:25:11.180 We were talking about the weather.
00:25:13.680 That's why it was most jarring for me to see of, okay, this is the third fertility doctor
00:25:19.100 I've seen.
00:25:19.900 I'm like beating a dead horse here.
00:25:21.560 And this is his reaction of like, he has the power to make a life and he's so desensitized
00:25:29.480 because he said, I have seen so much death.
00:25:32.940 Yeah.
00:25:33.800 Oh my goodness.
00:25:35.160 That's awful.
00:25:35.860 It was like the Lord was showing you these terrible experiences though, to make you realize
00:25:41.360 that this is not the path that he had you on.
00:25:45.080 And before we get into the kind of natural path that you ended up taking, I mean, part
00:25:51.320 of the article that you wrote in the Federalist or that was about you in the Federalist is about,
00:25:58.780 you know, it becoming a cash cow for them.
00:26:03.620 And so what did you discover about that?
00:26:05.840 Like the incentives that these doctors have financially to kind of push IVF so hard from
00:26:13.060 the beginning?
00:26:14.260 You know, really the majority of it was, I think, the feeding off the desperation again
00:26:21.920 of just really wanting to be able to create a life.
00:26:27.100 I think though, really it wasn't that I saw a ton of incentives.
00:26:32.520 The only thing I can think of is one of the places would like, you could put money down
00:26:40.540 or you could like, put it on loan.
00:26:42.540 And then if it was successful for you, you could like, obviously you'd have to pay, but
00:26:48.280 if it wasn't, then you could keep trying.
00:26:50.840 And so I think the price would go up from there, but I don't really know if I knew a ton of incentives.
00:26:57.200 It wasn't until I saw the last or more of the holistic doctor that he just shared with
00:27:05.280 me because of how easy it was.
00:27:07.880 I like wound up pregnant a month later after, I mean, we'll get into that, but I was like,
00:27:13.340 well, I, I went to these doctors and they told me this is going to take forever.
00:27:17.000 And I should have been doing this a long time ago.
00:27:19.280 And I just got pregnant basically by sneezing.
00:27:22.220 So, right.
00:27:23.340 So crazy.
00:27:24.180 And he just said, yeah, it's a cash incentive.
00:27:27.740 Yes.
00:27:29.560 Jennifer Law has done a lot of work on this.
00:27:31.700 I mean, some of the treatments that were suggested for you are about $40,000 and she has talked
00:27:38.940 about the, um, how much babies cost basically an IVF versus, um, like restorative reproductive
00:27:50.240 medicine treatment, which we'll talk about in a minute.
00:27:53.640 I mean, we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars in some cases.
00:27:57.880 And so of course there is a financial incentive with some of these doctors.
00:28:02.180 I can't say all of them, but it is how they make their money.
00:28:05.580 And so of course, just like any other business, you want more customers, you need more clientele
00:28:11.720 and the more embryos you make, the more rounds of IVF you do, the more money they're making.
00:28:17.080 They really have no personal incentive to say, you know what, let's take a second look at
00:28:22.520 this and see if you can go ahead and get pregnant naturally, or I'm going to recommend some of
00:28:28.040 these more holistic approaches to you.
00:28:29.900 That's not their business model.
00:28:31.620 It's just not.
00:28:32.400 And I'm not saying that every IVF doctor, even though I think IVF is wrong in all cases,
00:28:37.340 like I'm not saying that they all have these like malevolent incentives or they, I don't
00:28:43.220 think they think that they do.
00:28:44.800 Some of them probably think that they're really helping, but at the end of the day,
00:28:48.960 they are also thinking of paying their own bills.
00:28:52.780 And so that's just, that's just part of it.
00:28:55.600 That's just inherent in the industry, not to mention all of the pharmaceutical companies
00:29:00.480 and all of the big business that's behind the reproductive industry.
00:29:05.520 It's all a cash cow.
00:29:07.740 It just is.
00:29:08.500 I mean, that's just part of it.
00:29:09.920 Yeah.
00:29:18.960 Okay, so tell me after you had that terrible experience with the third doctor, what you
00:29:28.460 decided that you were going to do, because at this point y'all still weren't even trying
00:29:32.300 for a baby, right?
00:29:34.280 I think we had like, I can't remember actually.
00:29:39.880 I'm sure we were like, well, let's just give it a try.
00:29:42.600 Who knows?
00:29:43.140 Yeah, but we hadn't, we hadn't officially like started taking any medications or anything
00:29:49.340 like that.
00:29:50.100 Okay.
00:29:51.360 But you decided to seek out a natural fertility specialist, right?
00:29:55.140 So tell me about that.
00:29:56.160 So bizarrely enough, I, again, Instagram, just wound up coming into a account that was called
00:30:09.580 NAPRO technology, which is really an old, old, old method that takes a look at, you start
00:30:24.860 charting your cycle and really not to get into the weeds of it on here, but it was more
00:30:31.320 of a natural holistic, like alternative to IVF.
00:30:36.340 And instead of going in, and this is what was so interesting is when the doctors told
00:30:41.740 me that my AMH levels were low, so my egg count was low, they were wanting to chalk me full
00:30:48.060 of hormones to force my body to make eggs.
00:30:52.560 But at the same time, I'm like, I thought I had not that many eggs.
00:30:55.500 I like, it didn't make sense on paper, exactly what I was being told.
00:30:59.340 Anyways, I wound up coming across a couple of these accounts on Instagram that were these
00:31:04.860 doctors trying to promote their specialties of NAPRO technology, which really, you know,
00:31:14.040 I don't have a medical degree, I don't know exactly all the things behind it, but I worked
00:31:19.760 with a provider to chart my own cycles and it was done through something called the Creighton
00:31:27.640 method.
00:31:28.660 And so you can Google this, it's out there.
00:31:31.060 And there are providers that will work with you and walking through like what's going on
00:31:36.980 each cycle that I'm having.
00:31:38.960 And he did something as simple as like doing a follicle scan with me for a couple cycles
00:31:46.760 and found out that I just wasn't ovulating correctly.
00:31:52.380 My hormones were out of whack.
00:31:54.500 And he said, we just need to look at your hormones and try to get them balanced.
00:31:59.340 And something that is really important here is that right now what's happening with your
00:32:06.100 follicles and you're like, why you're not getting pregnant is you could actually have,
00:32:11.060 be having tons of miscarriages right now because it's not actually doing your, it's premature
00:32:16.400 ovulation is what it's called.
00:32:18.780 So in other words, the egg could be being fertilized, but it's either not implanting or
00:32:25.380 after implantation, it's dying quickly.
00:32:28.420 And you wouldn't even know because it would seem like a period.
00:32:31.360 And so you could be having a ton of early miscarriages, which meant that it's not that
00:32:36.600 you couldn't get pregnant necessarily, it was the sustaining of the pregnancy.
00:32:40.920 And he said, yeah, it's because of this thing with the follicles, with the hormones that's
00:32:44.920 going on.
00:32:45.460 Right.
00:32:45.600 And all he did was put me on some progesterone medication.
00:32:51.480 Yeah.
00:32:51.820 It was $4 with my insurance.
00:32:53.920 Oh my goodness.
00:32:55.360 And a couple other, a couple other things.
00:32:57.480 And again, I think this is something that I do want to say is I understand that trying
00:33:06.100 to have a child, it's like out, out in the world, all these different options, we'll try
00:33:12.100 this or try this or try this or try this.
00:33:14.420 I am not saying just because this happened with me and this was my experience that, you
00:33:19.780 know, boom, here's, here's the solution, everyone, it's going to be the same for everyone.
00:33:24.960 So I really say this very tenderly and with compassion or like, I understand the heartbreak
00:33:30.460 of hearing someone else's story.
00:33:32.480 And it's like, well, I've tried this.
00:33:34.340 Yeah.
00:33:34.500 It didn't, it didn't work for me in the desperation there.
00:33:37.880 But the point is that so many women are not even told that there is any other possible
00:33:44.280 alternative.
00:33:45.740 That is probably one of the most important things of why I felt called to write, write
00:33:50.380 this and write in the Federalist was, I truly think that there's so much information being
00:33:56.940 left out and left out for the nefarious reasons of, you know, making money.
00:34:04.200 But this was way more simple working with this doctor.
00:34:09.460 And he told me to go on a paleo diet and take a couple of these different medications that
00:34:15.080 help with ovulation and we'll just continue to see what happens.
00:34:19.600 And in like two months, I was pregnant.
00:34:22.780 You were pregnant.
00:34:23.620 Oh my goodness.
00:34:25.420 That is so wild.
00:34:26.700 After going through the journey that you did and even going back to when you were a teenager
00:34:31.380 thinking, okay, you know, the endometriosis can have an effect on fertility and then hearing,
00:34:38.360 oh yeah, there's no way that you're going to be able to get pregnant naturally.
00:34:41.580 Oh my gosh.
00:34:42.680 I bet that moment of seeing the positive pregnancy test was just like, I was, I was actually about
00:34:49.120 to go to like another, um, you know, homeopathic type.
00:34:55.100 I don't even remember.
00:34:55.800 I was doing acupuncture or something, but, um, and I, I took a test just for the, just for
00:35:03.400 the heck of it and was listening to Ben Shapiro on a podcast.
00:35:07.980 And then all of a sudden I'm like, what, what, it's actually positive.
00:35:12.620 It's actually positive.
00:35:13.700 Yeah.
00:35:14.200 So yeah, that was, that was pretty crazy.
00:35:17.300 But I think to, um, maybe to cut, maybe I'm repeating myself, but, um, I do think that's
00:35:25.560 important to share with this is like how much information is being left out and how much
00:35:32.780 women our age need to, um, advocate for themselves and not take for, at first glance, what a white
00:35:40.980 code is telling them.
00:35:42.000 Um, you're putting your, your body and your future child's body and, in life in the hands
00:35:49.680 of someone, you need to do your research.
00:35:52.080 You need to do everything you possibly can to make sure that you, um, don't have to do the
00:35:58.400 most drastic measure and listen to that prick in your heart, which if you're a believer,
00:36:05.700 I think is the Holy spirit, um, that is telling you, Hey, there's something here.
00:36:12.920 You're hearing human embryos.
00:36:14.800 That means these are people made in the image of God, which means we have to consider how we
00:36:21.220 are treating them.
00:36:22.240 And that's why, you know, some people make the comparison while, you know, um, medicine
00:36:28.140 makes a lot of good things possible and it's just like a cancer treatment or treatment for
00:36:35.560 diabetes or anything else.
00:36:37.140 You're just getting a treatment.
00:36:38.540 Well, no, it's inherently different because we are talking about valuable human life and
00:36:44.780 powerless human lives.
00:36:47.040 And so you're not just treating an organ organ, you are treating a distinct individual, a person
00:36:54.660 and technology can tell us what is possible.
00:36:58.400 It can't tell us what is moral or ethical.
00:37:01.440 And that's the doctor's role is to tell you what's possible.
00:37:05.020 Um, they can't really, or they don't often tell you what is moral, what is ethical.
00:37:10.380 They see that as subjective.
00:37:12.340 Obviously they don't really have that.
00:37:14.020 They don't see it as immoral or unethical or else they wouldn't be doing it.
00:37:19.160 And so you have to trust, you have to trust the Lord, of course, and trust the wisdom that
00:37:25.560 he is giving you and not be intimidated by these professionals who are telling you to
00:37:31.300 silence any doubts that you have.
00:37:33.280 Yeah.
00:37:33.820 Yeah.
00:37:34.340 I think, um, I, I remember when we started going through this, um, there was a sermon at
00:37:41.340 my church where, um, I was talking about in first Peter about, um, the verse that says
00:37:48.000 like, and entrust your soul to a faithful creator while suffering.
00:37:52.880 Um, I think that stuck out to me so much because this is such a, um, painful and hard road to
00:38:02.640 go down.
00:38:03.220 And, um, um, I think that's something that I, I want for, you know, the listeners, the
00:38:10.440 girls who are, um, feeling so desperate and so heartbroken over this process, um, is that
00:38:18.900 like God really does use suffering and, um, the pain that, that we're going through, um,
00:38:25.560 to bring us closer to himself.
00:38:27.100 And that again, motherhood and a child is not God.
00:38:32.120 God is our God.
00:38:33.700 And, um, um, I think that was one of the things that he used during this whole process with
00:38:39.580 me is to, um, bring, bring me closer to himself to know that if this is my calling, if this is
00:38:48.300 something that he wants for me, he will provide, but to listen to and be convicted of, I don't
00:38:55.840 need to at all costs, um, have a, what did you say the other day?
00:39:00.560 I think you said an unfettering access to creating these embryos.
00:39:07.540 Unfettered probably.
00:39:08.360 Unfettered.
00:39:08.780 Yeah.
00:39:09.120 I can't ever remember things that I say, but.
00:39:11.620 But it stuck out to me.
00:39:12.560 Unfettered access.
00:39:13.180 Or just the wild, wild west of fertility of you can just go out and do literally whatever.
00:39:18.580 Um, that is of the world.
00:39:20.320 That is, that is of man.
00:39:21.740 Um, and not of God.
00:39:23.520 Mm-hmm.
00:39:24.700 And we often say when technology takes us from what is natural to what is possible,
00:39:30.680 we are obligated, especially when it comes to creating life to ask, but is this right?
00:39:36.140 And is this good?
00:39:37.440 Go ahead.
00:39:37.740 Right.
00:39:38.340 It's not like we're choosing what to, what color to paint the wall.
00:39:42.660 That's what I was thinking of.
00:39:43.680 This is a human life.
00:39:45.020 If, whether we're going to grow our family or if we're going to put these embryos and
00:39:51.960 these things out outside of our bodies, I can't imagine what the, like women in Alabama,
00:40:00.220 right?
00:40:00.380 It was in Alabama where they put a pause on what you can do with your embryos, right?
00:40:05.140 To have that part of you outside of your body.
00:40:08.260 Right.
00:40:08.700 I can't imagine.
00:40:10.500 And in the, the unwise decision of putting those on ice to wait and to try, it's just
00:40:18.280 like, I was thinking as well, I really wonder one day if we're going to look back in years
00:40:24.900 to come and just shake our head in awe of like, what have we done?
00:40:29.240 Yeah.
00:40:29.700 That there are that many.
00:40:31.140 I hope so.
00:40:31.940 That there are that many like human embryos on ice, just waiting.
00:40:36.840 Yeah.
00:40:37.820 Souls on ice.
00:40:43.440 All right.
00:40:44.380 This one is for the related bros out there.
00:40:47.100 My Blaze TV colleague, Jason Whitlock.
00:40:50.280 He's got an event June 1st in Nashville, Fearless Roll Call.
00:40:54.780 This is round two of this event.
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00:40:58.340 They got such incredible feedback from that event that they decided to do it again.
00:41:05.040 You're going to hear amazing music by John Rich.
00:41:08.360 You're going to hear from Jason Whitlock, Glenn Beck, North Carolina, Lieutenant Governor, Mark
00:41:15.480 Robinson, so many others that are going to offer you encouragement as men and as dads to
00:41:21.420 take responsibility.
00:41:22.940 You're going to find camaraderie with like-minded men.
00:41:27.060 And it's just going to be amazing.
00:41:29.140 Go to fearlessarmyrollcall.com.
00:41:32.900 Get your tickets today.
00:41:34.680 That's fearlessarmyrollcall.com.
00:41:37.380 And people don't realize too that, yes, like I do think that there are, so I'm against
00:41:50.040 all IVF because of what we are talking about, because these are human beings made in the
00:41:55.320 image of God.
00:41:55.900 Plus when I think when you take reproduction outside of its intended context and sex, there
00:42:01.500 are all kinds of ethical problems with that, all kinds of issues.
00:42:05.440 But even just looking at like the success of IVF transfers and pregnancies versus those
00:42:14.400 who end up getting pregnant naturally, like the miscarriage rate is higher.
00:42:21.200 And very often those little embryos, maybe in God's image, don't make it because they are
00:42:28.580 thawed too early.
00:42:30.500 And almost people don't realize that even those who strive, and I believe like they have pure
00:42:36.920 intentions and they just don't know many.
00:42:38.920 Even those who strive to do it in the most ethical way possible, creating only the number
00:42:45.080 of embryos that they want to implant and implanting or transferring all of the embryos that they've
00:42:53.060 created.
00:42:53.500 Yes, I think that's better, by the way, than creating-
00:42:56.660 What the EU does.
00:42:57.440 Yeah.
00:42:58.100 Yes, exactly.
00:42:58.820 The ethical guidelines outside of the States.
00:43:00.840 Yeah.
00:43:00.980 Yes.
00:43:02.120 It's totally, it is totally possible to do that.
00:43:05.720 And it's better to do that, of course, than creating, you know, 12 to 20 embryos, which
00:43:09.900 is sometimes what happens.
00:43:11.840 But like people don't realize that even in that process, there is a destruction of embryos.
00:43:18.600 Like there is a eugenics process that they go through and doctors won't do it without that
00:43:24.800 process.
00:43:25.460 And very often doctors won't even just create two embryos.
00:43:28.540 They're like, no, we're at least, we're going to create, you know, five to 10 and then we
00:43:34.800 can settle on to, maybe a boy and a girl, the ones that don't have Down syndrome, the
00:43:39.940 ones that don't have the problems that we think, like even in the most ethical way possible
00:43:46.020 to do IVF, you have those issues.
00:43:48.600 Right.
00:43:48.820 And you're sparking my memory right now with the first doctor.
00:43:51.580 He started to go into that of, we will create the embryos.
00:43:54.660 They will all be there, how many we get.
00:43:56.560 And we want a big number.
00:43:59.160 Okay.
00:43:59.380 So a human embryo, we want a ton of them.
00:44:02.380 And then we're going to weed through, okay, if this one looks like genetically deformed
00:44:06.980 or, and if you're not understanding of what he's talking about, like that means that he's
00:44:12.640 discarding ones that might not be fully formed or they might have Down syndrome or they might
00:44:18.080 be.
00:44:18.560 So exactly what you're talking about.
00:44:19.920 If you, I don't think that women understand that's what they mean when they say, we're
00:44:26.660 going to like, make sure you have a couple of good eggs.
00:44:30.320 It's like, they just kind of brush right past that because for them it's no big deal.
00:44:35.500 And it really doesn't make sense.
00:44:36.680 Like you were saying how kind of inconsistent the logic is.
00:44:40.040 On the one hand, he's telling you that you don't have, you don't have very many healthy
00:44:44.920 eggs.
00:44:45.440 Like you're just not going to be able to get pregnant naturally because you've got, you
00:44:50.700 know, low amounts.
00:44:52.080 And then he's telling you, but we're going to create all of these embryos.
00:44:55.320 So you're going to be able to create a ton of embryos, but you don't have very many eggs.
00:44:59.960 Time is of the essence.
00:45:01.180 Like it, again, it just doesn't make very much sense.
00:45:03.940 It would have made more sense if he was like, you know, with your terrible abysmal levels,
00:45:07.560 we're maybe lucky to get to your dry desert, which is not the case.
00:45:12.480 Yeah.
00:45:12.980 And he's telling you, no, we're going to create all these embryos and you're right.
00:45:16.600 Like we are so conditioned.
00:45:18.500 I feel like we just live in such a pro-choice, pro-abortion world that even those of us who
00:45:24.100 are pro-life have been conditioned to think differently when it comes to reproductive technology
00:45:29.340 than when we think about abortion.
00:45:31.560 All of a sudden we're talking about IVF and we accept the clumps of cells rhetoric and the
00:45:37.120 clumps of cells logic.
00:45:38.260 But it's so easy to get caught up in that rhetoric and the, I just remember the like
00:45:48.200 probing of my heart of like, well, I understand what this man is saying to me, but like, is
00:45:53.040 it really a clump of cells?
00:45:54.460 Okay.
00:45:54.880 Well, if it is, but you have to, I even went and looked up like the definition of a human
00:46:00.880 embryo.
00:46:01.480 And I was like, what, I know the different stages, the zygote, all those kinds of things.
00:46:06.680 And, and there's somewhere, I think on the Stanford website, Stanford University, it's, it says
00:46:15.320 point blank, like life is created at conception when an embryo is created.
00:46:21.260 That is the medical definition.
00:46:23.760 It's distinct.
00:46:24.240 With its own DNA.
00:46:25.240 I'm like, if Stanford University is saying it, like, I think it's so pushed by the left
00:46:30.980 of like, well, you guys are just thinking that because you're Christians.
00:46:34.520 I'm like, these like liberal universities, regular old definitions, it's there in the
00:46:41.300 book.
00:46:41.980 Yeah.
00:46:42.700 There in the book.
00:46:43.180 It just changes depending on, really it changes depending on adult desire.
00:46:47.840 That's what it is.
00:46:49.060 If adults desire to have an abortion, if adults desire to have a child, then all of a sudden
00:46:53.860 we can change the definition of when life begins, we can change the definition of what
00:46:57.720 a human being even is.
00:47:00.000 And Christians of all people are called not to think that way.
00:47:04.640 That's not the lens through which we see the world and through which we see other human
00:47:09.500 beings.
00:47:09.880 And you can see like how that mentality has justified all kinds of human rights atrocities.
00:47:14.560 Well, we want to do this.
00:47:16.340 You want to own a slave.
00:47:18.300 You want to exterminate a group of people.
00:47:21.220 And so that gives you the license to classify them in non-human language that, you know,
00:47:29.280 makes you callous towards what you're actually doing.
00:47:32.240 That's what we've done to all groups of people that we've tried to justify exterminating or
00:47:37.440 mistreating.
00:47:38.180 You start to call them names and apply categories to them that don't sound human.
00:47:44.160 Yeah.
00:47:44.680 Desensitize.
00:47:45.280 Yeah.
00:47:46.040 Yeah.
00:47:46.480 People just need to realize that's what's going on.
00:47:48.680 Yeah, I think too, speaking of like a liberal mindset, I was like pondering on, okay, what
00:47:57.380 are we doing here?
00:47:58.360 If I'm trying to advocate for myself as a woman getting medical procedures done, right?
00:48:03.960 Like at the heart of the feminist movement, it's right.
00:48:07.400 Like I have rights over my own body.
00:48:09.300 I don't want a man to tell me what to do with my body medically, right?
00:48:13.120 For abortion and all those kinds of things.
00:48:16.040 It's so contradictory because for those who are pro-choice, but they're also pro-IVF, if
00:48:25.100 you actually like take a look back at the process that I went through, it was almost as if I had,
00:48:31.580 if I had not been paying attention to what these men were saying, I'm just putting my,
00:48:36.220 my, my body as a woman and my reproductive rights in their hands.
00:48:42.300 So true.
00:48:42.620 It's a man telling you what to do with your body.
00:48:45.000 So contradictory.
00:48:45.980 And, and I think there's so much move of like, I must have my rights and I must have these
00:48:51.080 things.
00:48:51.280 But then if you look at what happened in Alabama, like we said, there, your own human life that
00:48:57.660 you created is now outside of you.
00:48:59.960 And now you've put it in the hands of the government can tell you what to do with it.
00:49:05.420 So true.
00:49:06.280 It's so contradictory.
00:49:07.320 It is so contradictory.
00:49:08.560 That's a really good point.
00:49:09.540 And there's a lot of inconsistency too with like surrogacy and the pro-abortion crowd who
00:49:16.400 is also tends to be pro-surrogacy.
00:49:18.600 It's like, it's my body, my choice until you become a surrogate.
00:49:23.100 And then that woman loses all rights to her body.
00:49:25.880 She's not allowed to decide what to do with the life that's been created and that she's
00:49:31.340 carrying.
00:49:32.160 Many times she's contractually obligated to abort the child.
00:49:35.480 If the child has a fetal anomaly or something happens, we've interviewed one of those women
00:49:39.960 on this podcast.
00:49:41.240 And so it really is, once you stop looking at it through the lens of adult desire and bodily
00:49:47.940 autonomy, and you look at it through the lens of this is a child and a human being, only then
00:49:53.160 can you have a consistent ethic when it comes to creating life.
00:49:57.720 I did just want to read this by Jennifer Law because like, did you categorize the doctor
00:50:05.080 that you went to?
00:50:06.180 Did he call it restorative reproductive medicine?
00:50:08.960 Okay.
00:50:09.380 So she has a thread about this, which I had actually never heard of that term.
00:50:14.940 I know.
00:50:15.240 That term.
00:50:15.720 Nobody.
00:50:16.560 It's so sad.
00:50:17.900 It's so sad.
00:50:18.720 And that is, I think, an answer to so many people's problems with IVF, but it's not talked
00:50:27.200 about.
00:50:27.680 I think, I mean, don't mean to be a conspiracy theorist, but like, of course, big pharma
00:50:32.960 wants to keep that quiet or be like, that sounds kind of wacky.
00:50:36.400 Why would you do that?
00:50:37.840 It's like the whole ivermectin thing.
00:50:38.260 Yes.
00:50:38.740 Yeah.
00:50:39.540 Yeah.
00:50:40.080 It doesn't make the money.
00:50:41.020 So she says, she said, I want you to become familiar with restorative reproductive medicine.
00:50:48.180 This was a tweet at the end of February, which aims to treat the underlying fertility
00:50:51.780 issue in men and women.
00:50:52.960 It's not popular because it's affordable and carries very little risk, if any.
00:50:59.700 And so I can't go through every single thing here, but she talks about some of the studies
00:51:05.700 that show the success of RRM has a low risk of twin or multiple births, a very good neonatal
00:51:12.460 outcome with potential cost savings to the healthcare system.
00:51:15.520 So that's good.
00:51:16.820 That's another thing with IVF is that very often these women, like multiple embryos are
00:51:21.580 transferred in the hope that one sticks while maybe two or three or four stick.
00:51:25.500 And then those women are pressured to reduce their pregnancies.
00:51:28.760 And so you are purposely killing baby A, baby B, baby C, whichever baby is basically lowest
00:51:34.820 and easiest to get to.
00:51:36.480 That's another issue with IVF that no one talks about.
00:51:39.920 And then she says this data that she links shows that IVF babies are over four times more
00:51:47.860 expensive than RRM babies.
00:51:49.980 And IVF success rates are actually lower.
00:51:52.500 RRM has a higher live birth rate.
00:51:56.800 And due to the low incidence of adverse outcomes, RRM likely has a better perinatal outcomes compared
00:52:02.500 to IVF.
00:52:03.340 Any government policy that provides exclusive funding for IVF threatens access to RRM treatment
00:52:08.660 despite evidence that RRM may be a better treatment for many patients.
00:52:13.060 Using RRM as a prerequisite option in suitable patients, so true, would save thousands and
00:52:18.860 avoid the use of invasive procedures that often are not necessary.
00:52:22.580 So basically saying, look, before you go the IVF route, try this, do this.
00:52:28.560 Let's exhaust everything.
00:52:29.680 And, you know, I'm even looking back to when my husband and I first started trying when
00:52:35.240 I was 26 and I wasn't pressured in any way at that point.
00:52:41.700 But I am thinking back to like those first conversations because it took us four months
00:52:46.540 and to get pregnant.
00:52:49.080 And in my mind, I was like, oh, it should just happen immediately or something's wrong with
00:52:53.040 me.
00:52:53.280 And I do remember my doctor saying, OK, because y'all are healthy, 26 and 27 year olds, if
00:52:59.860 you're not pregnant by six months, that's when we need to have a bigger conversation.
00:53:03.160 And I'm looking back and I'm thinking, I'm like, well, actually, I know women who don't
00:53:07.340 have any fertility problems, but it took them a year or a year and a half because there's
00:53:11.560 so many different factors.
00:53:13.220 Stress, what you're eating, the medications that you're taking.
00:53:16.180 For me, I think it was my thyroid.
00:53:18.100 I actually needed to get on the right dosage.
00:53:20.140 And I, you know, we've never had to have any help getting pregnant.
00:53:23.700 But I wonder, I'm like, OK, if it had been like one more month or two more months and
00:53:28.940 I had gone into the doctor's office and said, we didn't get pregnant.
00:53:31.780 After six, only six months of trying, would he have been like, OK, let's have the IVF conversation?
00:53:37.460 Yeah, yeah, I remember the doctor I wound up getting pregnant, not getting pregnant with,
00:53:46.100 but I know what you mean, under his care.
00:53:48.620 Under his care.
00:53:49.340 Yeah.
00:53:50.540 He said, yeah, of course, if you're healed, why would they, right?
00:53:55.600 If we figure out what's wrong with your reproductive issues and we heal that, like you're no longer
00:54:02.600 valuable to these doctors.
00:54:04.540 They don't want you to know that through this NAPR technology or these other holistic
00:54:10.060 understanding of what is actually going on with you, they don't want you to know that.
00:54:14.680 And they really don't want you to be empowered to take control over, OK, I know my own body.
00:54:20.540 I know like this month this happened, probably, right?
00:54:25.540 Like they don't want you to know that because then you won't need their care anymore.
00:54:30.160 You won't need it.
00:54:31.480 And something, too, with the Creighton method that I used, it helped me understand there
00:54:37.760 are really only like a handful of days you actually are really probably going to get pregnant
00:54:42.360 in a month.
00:54:43.020 I don't know about you, but I grew up in purity culture and they're like, if you sneeze,
00:54:46.860 you will get pregnant.
00:54:47.900 Oh, yeah.
00:54:48.280 Like if you look.
00:54:50.380 Well, I mean, it is kind of crazy how that happens, how you have married couples who try
00:54:54.500 and try and try and have such a hard time getting pregnant.
00:54:56.700 And then you've got the 16 year old to one time she ends up getting pregnant.
00:55:01.400 And so but of course, like that is part of like the fear it like in your teenage years
00:55:06.660 that motivates you not to have sex, which I think is a totally like one a valid fear
00:55:11.440 shouldn't be the only motivation for the Christian.
00:55:13.640 But I mean, that is a ramification of it.
00:55:16.140 And so you just think, well, that's how it's going to be.
00:55:18.580 Also, when I'm 25 and trying to get pregnant or 30, trying to get pregnant.
00:55:21.700 Um, and it's, you know, it's a little bit more calculation, not that hard, but yeah.
00:55:28.000 Yeah.
00:55:28.620 I something when we were talking a little bit about the statistics a little bit ago of IVF.
00:55:33.980 Um, I thought it was so interesting to look back at the, like what is pushed through the
00:55:42.640 regular, like United States medical, um, culture is IVF is the best.
00:55:49.840 IVF is our biggest option.
00:55:51.860 How much it is pushed versus the contradictory nature of like the actual outcome of how many
00:55:58.940 live births come from IVF.
00:56:00.800 If the numbers are low, I think at one statistic I saw was about 38%.
00:56:05.900 I mean, I think it depends on what, what articles you're looking at.
00:56:09.480 Jennifer Law says 24.4% of, of births that are done through IVF are live births, right?
00:56:19.440 They don't match up how much it's being pushed versus how much it's going to, to work.
00:56:25.520 Something else too, that comes to my mind is when we go back to advocating for your health
00:56:30.540 and knowing, um, that you're the, the doctors you're putting your trust in, um, you have
00:56:37.500 to make sure that they are exhausting every option.
00:56:41.500 Dr. Jones is the man who I wound up working with, uh, at the end.
00:56:48.120 He had said that, um, it would have been absolutely unethical to have started me on any sort of IVF
00:56:55.980 treatment based on what was actually wrong with my endometriosis diagnosis.
00:57:01.460 And, um, the ovulation difficulties that I was having would have put me at risk for so many miscarriages
00:57:08.920 and so many problems.
00:57:10.780 And he was saying, none of those doctors looked into that when they knew you had an endometriosis diagnosis.
00:57:16.800 So they're not doing, I mean, I'm not painting this off with a horrible brush here.
00:57:21.780 Like I know there are doctors that probably work very hard for these, for these women,
00:57:26.700 but just the carelessness of they, they were not doing everything they needed to do to make sure
00:57:34.780 that this, this was going to work.
00:57:37.400 And again, it's not like we're painting the wall, like picking out what color to paint the wall here.
00:57:41.760 This is a human life being created.
00:57:44.160 And so if we're not following everything to a T of what we need to do to make sure this woman
00:57:48.900 can carry a viable pregnancy, what are we doing?
00:57:53.000 I know.
00:57:53.400 And we haven't even talked about the increase in the rates of breast cancer and other kinds of cancer
00:57:58.600 that, um, has a causal relationship with IVF.
00:58:03.140 And so it's not even about, it's, I mean, it's not really good for anyone.
00:58:09.440 Yes, you might get a baby out of it, maybe, but gosh, there is so much destruction and damage
00:58:16.300 that is scattered behind the process of making that one baby.
00:58:21.580 And that's, I always have to say like, of course, this doesn't mean that babies made through IVF
00:58:27.860 are any less valuable or that you're not a great mother and that you don't love your children.
00:58:32.300 I know that you love your children very much and that your babies are precious and made in God's image.
00:58:38.660 But, you know, just like in everything, while we celebrate all life as pro-lifers, we don't
00:58:45.420 have to approve of how every baby was conceived.
00:58:48.620 Yeah.
00:58:48.920 Um, we have to kind of step away from the any means necessary mentality.
00:58:56.420 I so agree.
00:58:57.280 And, and I wrote, want to echo what you just said of, I know and love many people who have
00:59:03.220 gone through the IVF process.
00:59:05.280 Um, I know and love their babies.
00:59:08.300 Um, I think one of the most things that I feel called through this, telling this story
00:59:13.520 is, um, I just don't think our generation, Allie, like truly understand what IVF is and
00:59:21.580 what the process is and what we're doing here.
00:59:24.280 I think there needs to be a major, um, recall of do something first, do something else first.
00:59:34.780 Yes.
00:59:35.800 And, you know, as you said, can totally empathize and understand like the struggle of wanting
00:59:42.620 to have kids and having that unfulfilled desire.
00:59:45.580 And I do want to read the, as we close out the Bible verse that you referenced, um, it's
00:59:51.780 first Peter four 19.
00:59:53.560 Therefore, let those who suffer according to God's will and trust their souls to a faithful
00:59:59.960 creator while doing good.
01:00:02.760 Um, it's not so different than what we say often on this podcast to do the next right
01:00:08.160 thing in faith with excellence and for the glory of God, but it adds such a beautiful
01:00:11.880 comfort there that we are, as we are suffering, we are at the same time entrusting our souls
01:00:20.200 to a faith.
01:00:21.400 I just love all of the words selected, a faithful creator while doing good to the God who made
01:00:28.480 us is actively caring for us and ministering to our souls while we are suffering.
01:00:34.140 Our suffering is not for nothing.
01:00:36.260 And we are also empowered to continue to do good while we are suffering.
01:00:41.720 How amazing.
01:00:42.280 Yeah.
01:00:43.300 Yeah.
01:00:43.720 I'm, it's hearing that all over again is ministering to my heart of just how near God
01:00:49.220 was during that painful time.
01:00:51.440 And the end part of while doing good gave me at the end of that, that I can entrust my
01:00:57.440 soul to a faithful creator while doing good.
01:00:59.760 It gave me this, like, trust me and keep going.
01:01:04.140 Not keep trying to have a baby, but keep living your life.
01:01:08.540 Do not give way to fear.
01:01:10.700 Draw near to me.
01:01:12.100 Like, I will use this suffering.
01:01:14.120 Who knows if you're going to get a child out of this or not.
01:01:17.640 That's not promised, but you will get more of me.
01:01:20.820 You will get more of my spirit in you and a closer relationship with me.
01:01:25.620 And at the end of the day, as believers, that's why we're here.
01:01:29.520 That's what we need.
01:01:30.600 Yes.
01:01:31.060 Amen.
01:01:31.460 And now in your case, you do have a precious baby boy, which is, and how old is he now?
01:01:37.960 He's over one.
01:01:40.000 He's a little over one.
01:01:41.320 He's a little over one, a spitfire.
01:01:43.320 And I look at him and I just can't, I can't, I can't believe it.
01:01:47.960 Yeah.
01:01:48.460 But praise, praise God.
01:01:50.100 He didn't have, he didn't have to answer that prayer, but by his grace, he did.
01:01:53.780 And it's, it's a, it's a wild ride.
01:01:58.380 Yes, it is.
01:01:59.460 I mean, parenting is a wild ride, but there's not enough people talking about the wild ride
01:02:04.640 that it can be before we even can see those children.
01:02:07.820 Forgot about it all.
01:02:08.840 Yeah.
01:02:09.180 So thank you so much for sharing your story.
01:02:12.400 You didn't have to do that, but I do believe God just uses these testimonies to change hearts
01:02:16.640 and minds.
01:02:17.180 And really, I don't know if you've ever sat with like the impact of sharing your testimony,
01:02:21.900 but your testimony can literally save lives.
01:02:25.240 As someone, I guarantee you one person at least is going to hear this.
01:02:28.840 They're going to cancel that appointment and they are going to choose a different path,
01:02:34.540 a path that is not one that sacrifices little image bearers of God, but one that is actually
01:02:40.100 truly life-giving, even if it is in just the gospel, spiritual sense.
01:02:45.300 So thank you so much, Katie.
01:02:46.680 Thank you, Allie.
01:02:46.980 I really appreciate you coming on.
01:02:48.280 That was great.
01:02:48.640 Thank you.
01:02:49.080 We'll be right back.