Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 999 ｜ The Enneagram Scam ｜ Guest： Dr. Dale Johnson

00:00:00.460 Should Christians care about mental health? 1.00

00:00:04.480 Should we be going to psychiatrists, psychologists?

00:00:08.040 What is the difference between secular psychology and biblical counseling?

00:00:13.760 What is the difference between secular mental health and the biblical perspective on our

00:00:19.460 mind and our heart and our emotional state?

00:00:22.180 This was a wonderful, insightful conversation from Dr. Dale Johnson.

00:00:26.880 He is the executive director of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors.

00:00:31.540 He is the host of the podcast, The Truth in Love podcast.

00:00:36.280 This was an amazing, very encouraging conversation as I heard the wisdom that he offered on what

00:00:44.180 the Bible actually says about how Christ can guide and help and sanctify our mind and heart.

00:00:52.300 Really, really good stuff that I know you guys are going to enjoy on today's episode of

00:00:58.340 Wellness Wednesday on Relatable, which is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:01:02.660 Go to GoodRanchers.com.

00:01:03.860 Use code Allie at checkout. 1.00

00:01:04.940 That's GoodRanchers.com.

00:01:06.080 Code Allie. 1.00

00:01:16.120 Dr. Johnson, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

00:01:19.040 Before we get started, can you just tell us who you are and what you do?

00:01:23.340 Yeah, my name is Dale Johnson, and I am a professor of biblical counseling at Midwestern

00:01:28.540 Baptist Theological Seminary.

00:01:32.280 And I am also the executive director at ACBC, which is the Association of Certified Biblical

00:01:39.060 Counselors.

00:01:39.860 And those are two roles that take up most of my time.

00:01:43.640 But I'm a husband to my wife, Summer.

00:01:46.000 We've happily married for 23 years and have six children as well, so from college all the

00:01:52.980 way down.

00:01:53.640 So that's a little bit about who I am.

00:01:56.100 Awesome.

00:01:56.800 Awesome.

00:01:57.300 Well, I want to talk to you about biblical counseling.

00:02:00.640 You know, this conversation about counseling and therapy, what's needed, what's not, what

00:02:06.500 type of therapy or counseling is good, has been in conversation for a long time among

00:02:11.600 Christians with a lot of different perspectives.

00:02:13.680 What I've realized is that a lot of people don't know that there is actually a difference

00:02:18.800 between biblical counseling and what's called Christian counseling.

00:02:23.660 And I just want to hear from you, like, what is the difference and why do you care about

00:02:28.820 counseling for the Christian?

00:02:31.500 It's a really good question.

00:02:32.780 Let me start even by the way that you framed it, because that's how most people ask the

00:02:35.860 question.

00:02:36.400 They will ask the question, well, pragmatically, what's the difference?

00:02:39.660 Because what we're looking for is we're trying to decide, okay, what do we think will help

00:02:45.340 most in certain situations?

00:02:46.860 I would like to take that a step back and let us describe the distinctions of the types

00:02:52.400 of counseling so that we can understand that not only do they have different perspectives,

00:02:56.620 they have different goals in life.

00:02:58.740 And that matters to the Christian.

00:02:59.920 So for me, anybody who goes into counseling at any level, no matter how secular, you don't

00:03:07.060 do that kind of work because you hate people.

00:03:08.940 You go into that type of work because you have some concern about people who are broken

00:03:12.720 and hurting.

00:03:13.820 But there is a distinction, and it's really important.

00:03:15.860 I'll give it as brief as I can.

00:03:17.940 So if we were to think about it on a spectrum, so you've got a secular viewpoint, which is rooted

00:03:22.560 in humanistic thinking.

00:03:25.560 Obviously, there is no God.

00:03:27.020 We don't believe in a reality of His wisdom or anything about really the supernatural.

00:03:32.820 That's the perspective of most secularists, especially post-1859, which is a really important

00:03:38.520 date we might get into a little bit later.

00:03:40.820 But it's secular, meaning that it comes from human wisdom specifically.

00:03:45.680 We can talk about the empirical nature of how to pursue that type of wisdom, but it's

00:03:50.480 secular in its perspective, meaning that it's done within a closed system, and we're trying

00:03:55.820 to achieve human wisdom, what we can observe and see with the natural eye, and that's really

00:03:59.600 important.

00:04:00.600 You've got a middle position in the spectrum that you articulated as Christian counseling,

00:04:06.660 or what we would say is integrated counseling.

00:04:09.420 And essentially what's happening there is there's a perspective that we can take wisdom from

00:04:14.180 the world, human wisdom.

00:04:15.380 We can integrate that with theological truths to make sense of life, to understand human

00:04:21.440 nature or certain problems, or we start to compartmentalize humanity into physiological

00:04:26.600 or biological, psychological, and soulish type issues or spiritual issues.

00:04:33.560 And so that framework is built in the middle section, this Christian counseling, and there's

00:04:38.100 a spectrum within that.

00:04:39.180 So not every person who does integration is exactly the same.

00:04:42.520 There's a spectrum of how people articulate that.

00:04:45.080 But essentially what you're looking at is, you know, an overview is taking the wisdom

00:04:49.860 of man and the wisdom of God and trying to put those two together.

00:04:52.960 In biblical counseling, what we try and do is say, you know what, it's our perspective

00:04:57.500 that God has given us everything we need for life and godliness.

00:05:00.480 And if he's done that based on his character, that we choose to understand his wisdom about

00:05:06.860 life, about reality, the creation that he's made, and the creatures that he's made, and

00:05:12.720 that he's given us insight on not just what reality is for us as creatures, but what's broken

00:05:18.920 about man and how man should be repaired.

00:05:22.000 And that's a biblical perspective.

00:05:24.920 Right.

00:05:25.400 And I think a lot of people, you know, as I mentioned, and as you mentioned, don't really

00:05:29.660 know the difference between those two.

00:05:31.960 But there's also a specific track that you can take in your education to become a biblical

00:05:38.240 counselor that you don't have to if you are calling yourself a Christian counselor.

00:05:43.020 What does that entail?

00:05:43.820 Yeah, as far as educationally, a couple of different routes.

00:05:49.920 You know, if we were to contrast that from a secular perspective, obviously, most people

00:05:54.460 are trying to pursue licensure, or even from a Christian counseling perspective, they're

00:05:58.940 trying to pursue licensure.

00:06:00.240 So there's a federal regulation called KCREP, which is basically your educational standards,

00:06:05.820 and every school in every state has to meet those standards.

00:06:08.920 And then a person is trying to pursue certain education requirements that are laid out by

00:06:13.820 the federal government and then specific in each state.

00:06:17.000 That's different than biblical counseling, because what we believe in biblical counseling

00:06:20.860 is the best training that you can receive to do biblical counseling is not psychological

00:06:25.500 in nature, but it's biblical and theological in nature.

00:06:29.180 Because the point that I try to make that I think is so relevant, which we've understood

00:06:34.080 in church history very well, we seem to have lost understanding of this in the modern,

00:06:38.720 is in order to understand man, man is a dependent being.

00:06:41.980 And so we can't understand man without understanding the independent being who is God.

00:06:48.680 And in order to understand the nature of man, what man's purpose is, what we're for, how man

00:06:54.860 was designed to work, how we actually operate, we have to understand theology first.

00:07:00.220 So a theological training, biblical training, how to understand the scriptures really best helps

00:07:06.780 us to understand man, because man can't be understood unless we understand him in relation

00:07:11.560 to his creator.

00:07:13.480 Right.

00:07:14.820 And how would you tell someone who is considering counseling, but they just don't know, do they

00:07:21.100 really need it?

00:07:21.960 Are they overthinking it?

00:07:23.480 Is their problem severe enough to go see a professional?

00:07:27.820 How do you help someone decide whether it's time or whether it's right for them to go see

00:07:32.740 a biblical counselor?

00:07:33.660 Yeah, that's really good.

00:07:35.580 I think when there's, the way I describe it is the church is intended to do normal processes

00:07:41.240 of care.

00:07:41.840 If you look at the function that's described in the scriptures about what the church is

00:07:46.580 to do, every function of the local church is intended for the purpose of soul care, from

00:07:51.180 evangelism to preaching to the one another's to church discipline.

00:07:55.620 All these things are about how do we grow people to walk faithfully in Christ?

00:08:01.260 How do we comfort them when they're down?

00:08:02.780 How do we minister to them when they're suffering, when they're faint hearted and so on?

00:08:06.180 So every ministry of the word of the church is intended to bring light to darkness of the

00:08:12.400 soul.

00:08:13.380 And I think that's critical.

00:08:14.920 The second piece is when do we know we should take some intensive, what we would call intensive

00:08:20.060 discipleship?

00:08:20.840 Well, if there's an acute problem that is hindering your normal process of growth or your normal

00:08:26.660 function, then maybe it's time to sit down with somebody and let's deal with this particular

00:08:31.500 problem, help you get over that hump, scripturally speaking.

00:08:35.240 And then let's move you forward back and assimilate you back into the normal processes of care.

00:08:40.740 So, you know, when I think about professionalism, I can go into a whole diatribe, of course, about

00:08:46.180 how I think about professionalism in terms of counseling.

00:08:49.360 I think what we've made it is we've used that language of professionalism in counseling or

00:08:55.920 professionalized counseling to such a degree that we've diminished the biblical viewpoint

00:09:00.640 of what discipleship is intended to accomplish, which is for the purpose of stabilizing the

00:09:06.320 soul.

00:09:06.640 If you take somewhere like Ephesians 4, to grow up into the measure, the stature, the fullness

00:09:10.700 of Christ is to stabilize us so that we're not tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.

00:09:16.040 So there's a critical piece that we see, Psalm 19, 7, for example, the law of the Lord is

00:09:21.260 perfect and it accomplishes something.

00:09:23.560 It restores the soul.

00:09:25.440 So the Bible is staking claim that it does that type of soul work, that that's the domain

00:09:30.680 of God and the domain of his church and the truth that he's given us to accomplish that

00:09:35.080 work.

00:09:46.040 Do you find that men have a more difficult time than women coming to a biblical counselor

00:09:55.940 or any counselor and properly assessing when they need kind of outside help in working through

00:10:03.520 whatever it is that is inhibiting them from their normal processes, their spiritual life?

00:10:10.300 Unequivocally, yes.

00:10:14.820 Men, I think, and I'll give two basic reasons.

00:10:17.160 I think men are prideful.

00:10:18.600 And so it's hard for us to hear instruction from another person.

00:10:22.780 But the Proverbs calls us fools if we're not willing to receive instruction.

00:10:27.300 I think the second piece of that is men have a tendency to compartmentalize issues in their

00:10:31.920 life.

00:10:32.440 And so when there might be a major issue in one aspect of their life, they're not allowing

00:10:37.580 it to filter in and affect some of the other areas of their life, like their job or whatever.

00:10:42.260 And so, you know, there are many ways in which a man might feel like, you know, at home it's

00:10:47.340 going terribly, but in my job, things seem to be going well and I don't feel the pressure

00:10:52.500 that I need, you know, some sort of outside help.

00:10:55.140 Where sometimes ladies, you know, their life is all intertwined and they have a hard time 1.00

00:10:59.800 seeing one aspect of their life divorced from another aspect of their life.

00:11:03.400 So there's much more of a willingness to be humble and to seek help more often before

00:11:11.740 a man is willing to do that.

00:11:14.620 Yeah, I feel that women are typically more likely to be kind of external processors. 1.00

00:11:20.500 Like we like to talk it out.

00:11:22.160 I mean, that's what we did throughout our adolescence.

00:11:24.900 That was, you know, every like sleepover, every friend date, like every time you hang out,

00:11:30.080 you're externally processing your feelings, you're talking about your relationship, how

00:11:34.160 you feel about your parents.

00:11:35.420 Whereas I know I'm generalizing here, but guys are typically doing activities.

00:11:39.640 They're doing things together.

00:11:41.260 They're going on adventures.

00:11:42.280 They're playing games.

00:11:43.040 They're not necessarily sitting down and talking out how they feel and what's going on in their

00:11:49.880 lives.

00:11:50.260 And as you said, they can compartmentalize those things.

00:11:53.700 So now as an adult learning, oh, actually, these feelings have to be processed and talked

00:11:59.840 about and not just repressed.

00:12:02.360 That is, I think, a difficult thing to come to terms with, especially as an adult and especially

00:12:08.300 if you feel, which you do as a Christian man, you need to be like the rock for your family.

00:12:15.540 I think sometimes when we or maybe when men here have to be a rock for my family, that

00:12:21.860 means I can't have any emotions or I can't have any problems or I can't have any needs

00:12:26.860 or any anxiety.

00:12:29.520 And counseling is almost like an admission that you are needy in some way or that you're

00:12:35.180 insufficient or I don't want to say unstable, like in the mental way, but you know, like

00:12:39.940 you need some help with stability.

00:12:41.640 That's a hard thing to admit.

00:12:44.040 Yes, from pride, but also in just wanting to be the, you know, source of strength for your

00:12:50.220 family.

00:12:51.860 Yeah, well said.

00:12:52.980 And I think that plays into even 2 Corinthians 12, 9, where Paul describes his own weakness

00:12:59.200 and that Christ is made perfect in that weakness is that's a part of a spiritual battle for

00:13:04.100 a man as the head of the household, as you mentioned, where he's supposed to be strong.

00:13:08.680 But part of the paradox of the Christian life is that it's okay to embrace our weaknesses 1.00

00:13:12.640 because of where we find strength.

00:13:15.100 That strength is not like this therapeutic culture says, building the self from within.

00:13:19.840 In fact, that's antithetical to what the gospel actually calls us to.

00:13:23.360 It's to embrace those weaknesses and be unafraid with humility to embrace those weaknesses,

00:13:28.260 knowing that it's through those that Christ is actually demonstrated strong.

00:13:32.140 So that's a part of the paradox and struggle that I think is quite spiritual for men in their

00:13:37.740 role as head of the house.

00:13:38.700 And you know, I see that among women too, this kind of self-help, self-love culture that has 0.99

00:13:47.080 been popular for a very long time.

00:13:49.620 I mean, it goes back decades.

00:13:50.940 But certainly in the past, I don't know, 10 to 20 years with popular psychologists and maybe even

00:13:58.940 like pseudo psychologists, so people who offer psychological advice on Instagram, but maybe

00:14:03.620 aren't actually psychologists, this emphasis on self-love as the solution to all of your problems

00:14:12.420 and self-sufficiency as the answer to everything, that you are enough.

00:14:17.760 You're enough for yourself, and if you just discover yourself, fulfill yourself, make yourself

00:14:24.020 happy, do what you want, follow your dreams, then you will finally and fully be fulfilled,

00:14:30.520 that you have everything inside you that you need to be healed and to be whole and to be

00:14:36.520 happy.

00:14:37.440 I mean, that is the path that so many female liberating books are taking us down today. 1.00

00:14:45.340 I would say even sometimes with a Christian veneer over it, that, oh, Jesus told you to 0.98

00:14:50.460 love your neighbor as you love yourself.

00:14:52.020 That means you got to love yourself first, and you got to think of yourself first.

00:14:55.420 You got to prioritize all of your wants all the time.

00:14:58.540 But I love what you said, that that idea that the self is the source of strength and satisfaction

00:15:04.620 is contradictory to what the gospel tells us.

00:15:08.600 So can you explain that a little bit more?

00:15:13.400 Yeah, I think you're identifying exactly one of the key issues of our therapeutic culture.

00:15:21.820 Many call it the therapeutic gospel, because we've described that as being something that's

00:15:26.600 healthy.

00:15:27.300 We've described that as being something that's good.

00:15:29.240 But we've got to reckon these things according to the way God describes them.

00:15:33.100 God describes that perspective as being something that's not good, but in the category of evil.

00:15:38.920 In fact, in Luke 9, 23, for example, when Jesus calls his disciples, he says,

00:15:43.440 If anyone wishes to be my disciple, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.

00:15:49.140 That's the first call that he makes to a disciple is not to build the self, to grow the self,

00:15:54.000 to think better of yourself.

00:15:55.920 He says we have to deny ourself.

00:15:58.120 Why?

00:15:58.240 Because we weren't made to live by us, for us, or through us.

00:16:02.380 We were made to live by, for, and through Christ.

00:16:04.700 So this is absolutely antithetical.

00:16:07.180 If you think of Philippians 3, 3, when Paul says,

00:16:09.700 We are to put no confidence in the flesh.

00:16:12.380 Well, this whole modern movement is really about building the self to such a degree that

00:16:16.800 we're putting confidence in our flesh and the strength of our flesh, thinking that the

00:16:21.040 answer is not to us.

00:16:22.480 And that's actually a bait and switch from the evil one, because us finding strength in

00:16:27.860 ourself is futile thinking, according to Ecclesiastes.

00:16:31.880 Us finding strength in the things of the earth, the Bible says, is futile in thinking.

00:16:36.920 It's like a vapor.

00:16:38.160 And I think that's what's increasing our levels of anxiety, our levels of depression,

00:16:42.440 is we start to try those things.

00:16:44.660 We see the emptiness of those, and it only exacerbates the problem.

00:16:48.580 It actually doesn't bring wholeness.

00:16:51.200 It doesn't bring stability.

00:16:53.760 It doesn't bring peace, like what we're searching after, because it's the wrong means to get there.

00:16:58.480 Yes.

00:16:58.920 I like to say that the self can't be both the problem and the solution.

00:17:03.300 And that's what Satan wants you to think.

00:17:06.120 Or not even, I wouldn't even say that Satan wants you to think that you are the problem.

00:17:10.920 He wants you to think that society is the problem, that everyone else is the problem,

00:17:13.960 that everyone's expectations and demands and the responsibilities that you have,

00:17:18.180 the problems are on the outside.

00:17:19.540 The solution is in the inside, when really the opposite is true.

00:17:23.360 The problems are in the inside, and the solution is outside of us in our creator,

00:17:28.200 because the self can't be both the problem and the solution.

00:17:30.960 If inside of ourselves we're finding the depression, the anxiety, the insufficiency,

00:17:35.720 the inadequacy, the insecurity that is weighing us down,

00:17:38.600 we're not going to find the solution to those things in the same place that we're finding our problems.

00:17:43.580 And of course, as you have articulated so well, and as scripture teaches repeatedly,

00:17:49.520 God made us that way.

00:17:50.460 He actually made us to be needy and made us to be insufficient so that his power can be perfected

00:17:56.500 through us.

00:17:58.080 But that's a very countercultural message today.

00:18:00.860 Do you find in your profession and in your practice that reminding people that we are not

00:18:09.320 called to self-fulfillment and self-glory and self-help, that that is a difficult message for

00:18:16.380 people to receive or not?

00:18:20.680 It's a very difficult message.

00:18:22.400 And that's a part of the difficulty, I think, that we face in the church is we have,

00:18:27.920 as you mentioned, Christianized these secular ideas.

00:18:31.180 And I think because we've done this for so long, I mean, we're talking about really since

00:18:36.900 the 1920s, we've been doing this fairly regular.

00:18:40.780 And you can, there are marks before that, but there's a stark contrast starting in the

00:18:44.520 20s, 30s, 40s.

00:18:45.900 And so that's infiltrated our churches and not just liberal churches.

00:18:49.120 It's infiltrated very conservative churches as sort of part and parcel of how we think about

00:18:54.000 ourselves and how we think about life.

00:18:55.520 We've compartmentalized ourselves to a psychological being, a spiritual being, believing fully that,

00:19:00.440 yes, the Bible is sufficient for all things spiritual, but that's a compartmentalization.

00:19:04.560 It's a deducing of the beauty of the sufficiency of Scripture and what it's claiming that it

00:19:09.920 actually does.

00:19:10.760 And so, yeah, I think this is a constant uphill battle that we're fighting.

00:19:15.100 I think often of Colossians 2, 8, where Paul tells us that we are to guard against empty

00:19:21.280 philosophies and vain deceptions.

00:19:22.960 And I think this is one of those empty philosophies and vain deceptions that we are intrigued by and

00:19:29.500 lured toward because we think it does empower us in some way to pursue, you know, peace and

00:19:36.020 healing and hope and help and all these different things that we so long for and desire.

00:19:41.520 But we have to return back to what does the Scripture actually tell us?

00:19:45.720 What does the Scripture describe is the means, not just the goal, because lots of people have

00:19:51.340 the right goal.

00:19:51.980 We want to glorify the Lord.

00:19:53.060 We want to live at peace in life.

00:19:54.500 And that's a great goal.

00:19:55.600 The problem is the means by which we get there.

00:19:58.240 And that's often where people get confused.

00:20:00.560 God is concerned not just about the goal.

00:20:03.220 He's also concerned about the means that we get there.

00:20:05.100 And He's provided the way that we are to do that in His Word.

00:20:09.060 Can I ask you what you think about the Enneagram and or maybe different personality tests in

00:20:29.640 general and how churches have brought in the Enneagram kind of as a tool to understanding

00:20:34.980 the self and even understanding the self in relation to your spouse or others or God?

00:20:39.700 I'm just curious on your take on that.

00:20:43.460 Yeah.

00:20:44.060 So I'll give you the short is I'm not a fan at all of the Enneagram.

00:20:48.740 I think it's very deceptive.

00:20:50.360 I think it's driven by the New Age movement.

00:20:52.400 I had a doctoral student, Rin Cherry, wrote on this, and he's asking the question, is this

00:20:58.540 Christian? 0.80

00:20:59.720 And the answer to that question is, no, it's not Christian.

00:21:03.400 I think we get enamored with what I call explanatory power.

00:21:07.920 And from our finite minds, what we try and do is we see that people have different personalities

00:21:12.900 or maybe we would call it different dispositions.

00:21:15.220 Historically, people call those different constitutions.

00:21:18.420 And so we see those things and we're trying to give explanation as to why is this happening

00:21:22.460 or how is this happening?

00:21:23.420 And I think what we start to grasp at are people who have tried to give explanation to

00:21:28.100 it.

00:21:28.580 The problem is we often are fooled by and we have a tendency to grasp at explanations that

00:21:37.300 are disconnected from reality where they give partial truths where we can identify, yeah,

00:21:42.020 I've had that experience or yes, I feel like that sometimes.

00:21:45.120 And then we run to it.

00:21:46.660 And I think that's a part of what's happening with the Enneagram.

00:21:49.440 And listen, we can go through a whole history of personality testing and their rise and fall

00:21:55.020 and the multiplicity of those things because they don't grasp the depth of humanity and

00:22:00.940 our human nature in full.

00:22:03.740 And because they miss those points, they rise and fall in popularity.

00:22:08.320 And I think the Enneagram is certainly in process of that.

00:22:11.340 I think this one is a little bit more dangerous in the sense that it promotes definite New Age

00:22:16.060 perspective.

00:22:16.640 It's trying to explain from a, you know, those who use it Christianly, it's trying to

00:22:22.400 explain, you know, the detriments that we have or the brokenness, the effects of sin

00:22:27.660 on our lives in personality traits.

00:22:30.660 And that in and of itself, I think, divorces us from the biblical explanation of what ails

00:22:35.980 us.

00:22:36.180 And so what will happen ultimately when we redefine the problems that we have in our

00:22:41.080 humanity, we start to grasp at different solutions that are earthly and unbiblical, thinking that

00:22:48.700 we're empowered to overcome these personality traits or, you know, being able to cultivate

00:22:53.820 relationship with somebody who's a different number than you are or compatibility with a

00:22:57.880 different person.

00:22:59.040 And we think about that in terms of, well, this is what's good and right.

00:23:03.280 When scripturally, we are called to die to those self-made preferences, that understanding

00:23:09.880 of even strengths and weaknesses, so that we get over ourselves and we learn to love other

00:23:15.480 people who are quite different than us.

00:23:16.960 And this is the beauty of the church, is that you should see a group of diverse people from

00:23:21.780 different backgrounds and socioeconomic statuses, and those people shouldn't be worshiping together. 1.00

00:23:27.440 But the beauty of that is that the Lord brings peace to us all to where we have one common

00:23:31.960 goal, and we see unity even in diversity.

00:23:35.320 And I think the Enneagram is something that unintentionally builds division, even from a

00:23:40.060 Christian perspective, not to mention, as I did before, the New Age perspective that created

00:23:45.520 it historically.

00:23:47.100 Yeah, you know, you're right.

00:23:48.040 I hadn't thought about the division piece of it.

00:23:50.920 Um, the demonic and kind of, uh, occultish origins of it definitely have concerned me.

00:24:01.200 That was something I didn't know.

00:24:02.760 I, you know, I liked the Enneagram in college.

00:24:05.080 That was kind of when it was coming to fame, I would say, gosh, probably back in like 2011

00:24:10.860 or so.

00:24:12.120 That's at least when I first heard of it, and I thought that it was great.

00:24:14.860 And it was marketed to me as Christian, that Jesus actually represents like the perfect 1.00

00:24:20.640 combination of all nine numbers.

00:24:23.680 And it is presented to us as a way to actually build our relationships and help our relationships.

00:24:29.260 But I can see what you say being true and that, oh, that person's a five. 0.99

00:24:35.620 That's why I don't like them.

00:24:37.240 That person's a three.

00:24:38.760 That's why we're not getting along.

00:24:39.820 My husband, he's a whatever.

00:24:41.740 He's a seven and I'm a two wing one, whatever it is.

00:24:45.720 That's why we're having a hard time right now.

00:24:47.860 And it actually, it seems like it could set up yet another obstacle, um, in reconciliation

00:24:55.000 in unity, because we're thinking about things through the perspective of our personality traits

00:25:01.860 rather than through the lens of scripture.

00:25:03.880 I also think it can tempt people into seeing their sin as personality quirks.

00:25:09.460 Well, I just don't want to evangelize because I'm a five.

00:25:13.880 Well, I just hold everyone to this impossible standard of perfection because I'm a one.

00:25:18.820 Okay.

00:25:19.300 But these are sins that we have to repent of, right?

00:25:22.040 No matter if they're a part of our Enneagram number.

00:25:26.020 And that, yeah, I think that can inhibit not just relationships, but also sanctification,

00:25:31.240 which may be true of many personality tests.

00:25:33.500 I just see it with the Enneagram a lot.

00:25:34.900 Yeah, I would say it's, it's pretty consistent and, and I think you're spot on in how you

00:25:40.820 describe that.

00:25:41.540 It becomes a hindrance and a detractor to how we see ourselves.

00:25:46.100 And we think it gives us insight.

00:25:48.020 It's really Gnostic, right? 0.97

00:25:49.340 We think it gives us insight into who we really are as a person.

00:25:52.720 Um, and I think that's a part of the danger of it, because as you said, these could be

00:25:57.060 issues of sin, but we're not pursuing, uh, Christ's answer of sanctification, crucifying,

00:26:02.420 mortifying those particular sins that, that, you know, keep division between us as individuals.

00:26:07.780 Uh, we, we start seeking other types of solutions and, uh, and that's the danger of it.

00:26:11.940 So yeah, well said.

00:26:12.800 Yeah.

00:26:14.440 Do you also see a stigma when it comes to counseling individuals about talking about

00:26:21.160 sin?

00:26:21.840 Maybe you don't see this because the people who are using biblical counseling are hoping

00:26:26.100 to actually get a biblical response, but nowadays talking about the reality of sin, sexual sin,

00:26:32.520 God's parameters and design for gender, marriage, sexuality, all of these things, talking about

00:26:38.000 holiness and repentance and sanctification.

00:26:40.580 That is certainly unpopular, even from many pulpits today.

00:26:45.400 And it's described certainly by the secular world as unhealthy or even abusive or affirming

00:26:51.460 God's design is harmful conversion therapy. 0.89

00:26:54.460 There are all of these, you know, very vitriolic words used to describe basic Christian teachings

00:27:01.760 about repentance and right and wrong.

00:27:04.820 Is that a challenge that biblical counselors face today as far as how they are?

00:27:10.580 Serving their clients?

00:27:13.200 Yeah, for sure.

00:27:13.740 I think it's, you know, it's always a challenge.

00:27:15.940 I think biblical counseling really has that caricature that, you know, all we deal with

00:27:19.300 are issues of sin.

00:27:20.420 And, um, you know, to a degree we could, you know, if you think from a biblical perspective,

00:27:24.700 every problem that human, that we face as humanity is because of sin.

00:27:29.640 Now people will say, well, what do you mean by that?

00:27:31.720 Let me qualify.

00:27:32.480 Um, if we look at the narrative of scripture and the Christian, um, unveiling of progressive

00:27:39.440 revelation, Genesis chapter three is really critical because the curse of the world, uh,

00:27:43.960 matters, the impact of sin on us, whether that's natural disasters or other people sinning

00:27:48.460 against us.

00:27:49.180 It doesn't mean that I'm personally responsible for what somebody else does to me or a natural

00:27:53.700 disaster happening, but I still have to deal with this idea of sin and how it impacts

00:27:58.480 me.

00:27:59.260 And this is really key, Allie Beth, that I think a lot of people miss is that we have

00:28:04.440 a tendency to think, well, if we don't categorize it as sin, then, then, um, I'm not a moral agent

00:28:09.840 that's responsible to deal with this.

00:28:12.180 Um, I can have, you know, an excuse as to why I shouldn't deal with this.

00:28:15.760 I think that's one of the biggest hurdles that people have to get over no matter the suffering

00:28:19.980 that we experience in life, whether it's from consequences of our own personal sin or from,

00:28:25.080 you know, the, the effects of the curse of sin on the world and other people.

00:28:28.660 Sinning against us.

00:28:30.260 We still have a moral obligation before God to respond appropriately, uh, to him, to honor

00:28:36.180 him with what he's entrusted to us.

00:28:38.200 So I think discussion about sin has sort of, uh, you know, went out of vogue or out of popularity.

00:28:45.540 And I think people don't realize the danger of it.

00:28:48.560 When, when we set aside this language of sin that, that the scripture describes, um, not only

00:28:55.120 are we misunderstanding the genuine problems that humanity faces, but we, we then therefore

00:29:01.400 miss, um, the, the solutions that God offers.

00:29:04.980 And that's the subtlety that I think that's happening because every counseling system has

00:29:10.380 several things, no matter who you look at, what, what theorist, uh, every counseling system

00:29:15.480 has a worldview.

00:29:16.260 They have a perspective of what they think is normal.

00:29:18.560 They have a perspective of what they think is broken in humanity, and they have a perspective

00:29:23.180 of what they think the solutions are.

00:29:25.200 And those are not scientific, uh, pursuits.

00:29:29.620 Those are fundamentally philosophical pursuits.

00:29:33.100 Most people don't realize that, that counseling based on any type of psychology is, is a philosophical

00:29:39.580 pursuit long before it's a scientific pursuit.

00:29:42.200 And that, that's a categorical mistake that most people make.

00:29:45.200 And so therefore, you know, we, we, we often get, um, we're, we're disillusioned with, uh,

00:29:52.000 some of the therapy that's offered because we think, well, this is something that could

00:29:55.360 be helpful when it's offering a different way of wisdom, uh, than what the scripture offers.

00:30:00.760 So, uh, sin really is under the microscope because if, as Freud thought, if we could remove

00:30:06.720 Augustine's view of original sin, uh, now we've opened up the door where, where his psychotherapeutic

00:30:13.400 and the modern therapeutic gospel, um, can thrive.

00:30:17.000 And that's exactly what you see happening today.

00:30:20.100 Yeah.

00:30:20.500 Gosh, that is so true.

00:30:22.220 The only sin today is saying that there is sin, ironically enough.

00:30:30.760 So what does it mean from a biblical perspective to be mentally and emotionally healthy in general?

00:30:46.980 What does that look like?

00:30:49.160 Yeah, it's a really good question.

00:30:50.040 So let me, let me start, um, I'll start, um, just sort of broad so people can understand.

00:30:56.660 So the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, right?

00:30:59.760 That's the, the, what most people describe as the Bible of psychology and the Bible of

00:31:04.180 psychiatry.

00:31:05.200 It's this massive book, thousand pages that has nearly 500 diagnoses in it.

00:31:10.840 And it's the, the labels that everyone hears about in terms of mental disorders or quote

00:31:15.700 unquote mental illnesses.

00:31:17.640 Um, it's a book about abnormalities.

00:31:20.120 Okay.

00:31:20.620 And if it's a book about abnormalities, what's really interesting is they never give a perception

00:31:24.900 of what's normal.

00:31:25.780 So the question really that people should have is, is how do we know what's abnormal if we

00:31:31.300 don't have some sort of plumb line or a baseline of what's normal?

00:31:34.560 And so we, we're grasping after what we think is mentally and emotionally healthy, uh, disposition

00:31:40.260 when we, we don't even really have an understanding of what, what is normal.

00:31:44.760 And what you see is this is culturally appraised.

00:31:47.760 This is why the DSM thrives in a place like the West and particularly in America, but you

00:31:53.040 can't just superimpose those same ideas, uh, in a place like Africa or in the, in the far

00:31:58.120 East because they have very different worldviews.

00:32:00.600 So this is something that's culturally appraised that should tell us a couple of things.

00:32:04.560 Okay.

00:32:04.980 Is if they can't define what's normal, how can they ever describe what is abnormal functioning?

00:32:10.720 It's just a, simply a expression of things that are unwanted or we think are awkward socially.

00:32:15.720 I'm not saying those things, you know, people don't experience some of those feelings or,

00:32:19.560 you know, uh, different dispositions that that's not the argument, but it does bring

00:32:25.060 us to the question of what does it mean to be normal?

00:32:27.340 What does it mean to be truly healthy?

00:32:28.920 If we're made in the image of God, um, then what it means to be healthy and what it means

00:32:34.660 to be normal is that we reflect the character and the nature and the glory of God.

00:32:39.480 And based on the testimony of scripture, the only way that happened is by the, is by the

00:32:44.200 redemption that's found in the Lord Jesus Christ.

00:32:46.380 So the only way in which we can walk stable in life, the only way that we can have peace

00:32:52.000 Romans 5, 1 is that we are right with God first.

00:32:55.900 And that then allows us sociologically to have good relationship with other people.

00:33:01.180 We can deal with, you know, adversity and difficulties that happen in life in a much more stable way,

00:33:06.040 not perfect for sure, but in a much more stable way.

00:33:09.040 So when we think about mental, mental health, mental health in and of itself is, is somewhat

00:33:13.600 of a misnomer in the secular world.

00:33:15.440 It was trying to borrow from in the, in the first decade of the 20th century, it was attempting

00:33:20.340 to borrow from the medical model and in advancement of hygiene and the things we were learning about

00:33:27.020 hygiene in the medical model.

00:33:28.300 And a guy named Clifford Beers, um, sort of in reaction to the psychiatric barbarism that

00:33:34.100 was, that was, uh, discovered in the first part of the 20th century.

00:33:37.740 He, he proposes this idea of mental hygiene.

00:33:40.400 He says, well, I think we should live in a way that we, we have certain environmental, uh,

00:33:45.800 ways that, that help us to stay clean in our mind.

00:33:48.460 And, and that's really the, the secular perspective, um, as we've moved mental health forward, uh,

00:33:55.020 in the modern sense.

00:33:55.940 And so notice what happens if, if you're depressed, for example, um, and we call that a disease

00:34:03.020 and that is what makes you mentally, um, unhealthy, then what we're attacking is the symptom, right?

00:34:09.440 The feeling of depression.

00:34:10.780 And we say anything that makes you feel that way is the problem.

00:34:14.800 And what we've done is we've taken symptoms and made symptoms, the problem.

00:34:19.380 And so we're trying to fix those as symptoms.

00:34:21.580 And what, what happens is then we say anybody who, who experiences any level of sadness or

00:34:28.240 fear, uh, that that's abnormal.

00:34:31.440 Uh, and what we've done is we've just removed ourselves from, uh, what genuine human experience

00:34:37.360 really looks like in, in a world post Genesis three of loss and death and grief and difficulty

00:34:43.340 and brokenness.

00:34:44.560 And so we're losing reality from God's perspective.

00:34:47.680 So, uh, what, what they're proposing, it sounds good, but it's, it's a completely different

00:34:52.760 pursuit.

00:34:53.260 So the way I categorize this is to say in Christian, in the Christian worldview, we have a view of

00:34:58.140 what's normal.

00:34:58.740 And his name is Jesus and how we are to live life as a human being in relation to the father.

00:35:04.440 And so it's important that we understand that, that Jesus did everything that Adam could not

00:35:09.400 do, everything that you can't do, everything I couldn't do in how normal humanity should

00:35:14.680 live in relation to God for the good of others and for the glory of the father.

00:35:19.420 And so for us, we have that plumb line.

00:35:21.740 And I think then we can see, okay, what does it look like to live healthy, both emotionally,

00:35:27.180 mentally in our mind, how we renew our mind, how we think in our mind, how we, um, forego the

00:35:32.980 corruption in our mind, uh, you know, all those things are critical when we think about

00:35:37.380 what it means to, to walk healthy, to live healthy.

00:35:40.020 Notice what that doesn't mean.

00:35:41.500 It doesn't mean that we are abstaining from suffering because Jesus tells us in this world,

00:35:47.860 you will have trouble.

00:35:48.800 The whole mental health pursuit, um, it really is a fool's errand in part because what they're 0.99

00:35:54.680 chasing after, uh, they will never be able to get rid of ever.

00:35:59.800 They can never assuage everything that can corrupt our mental health.

00:36:04.480 Um, from, from God's perspective, though, he acknowledges that troubles in the world,

00:36:08.460 but yet he says, we're not hopeless.

00:36:10.440 Even when the trouble is there, we can still walk stable.

00:36:13.000 James one, we can still walk faithful with the Lord, even through difficulty and trouble.

00:36:18.480 That's genuine hope.

00:36:19.720 And that's something that the secular world can't really offer.

00:36:22.240 Hmm.

00:36:23.220 That's so true that mentally being mentally healthy or mental health is usually described,

00:36:29.720 whether deliberately or not as absence of bad feelings and certainly the absence of

00:36:35.400 persistent bad feelings.

00:36:37.180 But even if you just read the Psalms, we see that David persistently had bad feelings.

00:36:42.020 He persistently had sad feelings.

00:36:44.620 And I've even heard some people analyze that as he suffered from some kind of depression and

00:36:50.360 anxiety disorder, but that is doing, you know, what we do today with the, which is pathologizing

00:36:56.020 and diagnosing the spectrum of human emotion.

00:37:00.680 And I especially worry about this for adolescents and for teens, um, who are inundated with this kind

00:37:09.380 of content, particularly on social media and who live in a world where antidepressant medication

00:37:15.340 is glorified.

00:37:16.800 It is downright glorified, not just normalized or destigmatized where I would say there's even

00:37:23.040 an issue with that, but glorified.

00:37:25.320 There's a whole segment of TikTok where these young people are talking about all the

00:37:30.580 different anti-anxiety and anti-depression medications that they're taking.

00:37:34.340 Parents think they're doing the right thing because of this like therapeutic gospel and

00:37:38.880 just the pervasiveness of trust the experts, trust the experts.

00:37:43.040 If your kid is having a hard time, if they're sad, if they're insecure, if they're acting out,

00:37:46.960 you got to go to the experts.

00:37:48.120 You got to go to the therapist.

00:37:49.800 I mean, we don't even have time to talk about like all the consequences and the road that that

00:37:54.400 can often, not always, but can often lead down, um, for kids.

00:37:58.900 But have you seen that in this rise of, um, uh, this phenomenon of, I don't know how to describe

00:38:08.340 it without using like the term mental health, but mentally unwell or children feeling that

00:38:14.520 they're mentally unwell.

00:38:16.400 And if you have seen that, like how do parents deal with it?

00:38:19.400 Yeah.

00:38:21.300 So I, I, I'm glad you brought parents up because let me just say at the outset, I think what

00:38:25.580 we're seeing unfold is that, uh, mental health, um, practitioners really become the experts

00:38:32.380 and they're, they're the ones who are then given status of, you know, the, the professional,

00:38:37.220 uh, the expert who, who makes declarations about particular things.

00:38:41.340 And the losers in all of this become the parents, because what you start to see happen is, you

00:38:46.000 know, parents who live with their kids every day really don't know their kids as well as

00:38:50.020 what a therapist can with certain insight.

00:38:52.380 And, and which I think is, is Gnosticism, uh, played out in full spectrum.

00:38:57.300 So, um, so I think that that's initially a danger.

00:39:00.000 Now, let me speak specifically to, uh, the question about adolescence and how we see that

00:39:04.840 growing.

00:39:05.080 I don't think we should, um, we should think that that's strange.

00:39:09.000 I, I didn't say, I don't think it's good or that I think it's good.

00:39:12.560 I think we shouldn't think it's strange.

00:39:14.960 If you understand the history of psychology, and I think Carl Truman, uh, did a really good

00:39:19.480 job in, in his cultural appraisal, um, as he describes the, the, um, the effects of Freudian

00:39:26.860 thought, uh, really on our modern therapeutic culture and how we, we take feelings and we take

00:39:32.540 them as, as primary identity.

00:39:35.080 And that's a part of what's happening.

00:39:36.800 Let me, let me explain something before I get into this, cause I think this part will

00:39:40.040 be helpful.

00:39:40.820 Let's take, let's take depression from the DSM, for example.

00:39:44.040 Okay.

00:39:44.320 So in, in, in the criteria of the DSM, there are nine categories of criteria for depression.

00:39:50.640 They describe normal functional problems when somebody has depressive feelings.

00:39:55.640 It's things like, you know, loss of appetite.

00:39:57.840 They can't function, uh, in a normal day.

00:40:00.520 They're overwhelmed with grief.

00:40:01.800 Maybe they have suicidal ideation, those types of things.

00:40:04.300 I'll often ask my students when a person is depressed, what are the things that they believe

00:40:09.020 to be true about themselves?

00:40:10.540 And they'll say, well, you know, they think maybe they're better off dead.

00:40:13.800 They think other people think that that's true.

00:40:15.820 They, they, you know, some event happened in their life.

00:40:18.060 And so they feel like they're worthless.

00:40:19.240 And I say, okay, if that's what they believe to be true, um, what's broken with the way

00:40:25.180 we describe what's broken in our cultures, we say, well, um, they shouldn't be feeling

00:40:30.000 depressed.

00:40:30.420 So their emotions must be broken.

00:40:32.000 But the question that I want to ask is, um, if that's true, okay.

00:40:36.960 If, if, if I believe that I should die, that I'm better off dead, that I'm worthless, what's

00:40:42.360 the, what's a proper emotional response to that belief?

00:40:45.700 If that's really true, actually, it's not your emotions that are broken.

00:40:49.140 Your emotions are responding quite properly to what you believe to be true.

00:40:53.920 And so we're attacking the symptom of, of emotions or feelings saying that that's, what's broken

00:41:01.180 instead of the issue of, of what's true and right, which is that I'm believing things that

00:41:06.200 are false according to, you know, us being made in, in, in, to God's image and have intrinsic

00:41:11.040 value and all the rest of it related to the image of God.

00:41:13.840 So we can see even that narrative starts to build what we have, what we see in our teenagers.

00:41:18.760 So what they're doing is they're describing themselves based on the way that they feel.

00:41:23.560 And it's become in vogue now to expect that, you know, we're, we're all born with some

00:41:28.640 form of inherited taints and expresses itself in different ways.

00:41:31.900 And then it becomes glorified, uh, almost a competition of, you know, who has the most

00:41:37.660 therapist or who has, you know, the different types of medication and, and, and that sort of

00:41:42.320 thing.

00:41:42.560 But it, that, that happens when we build feelings and emotions as that, which sets or creates our

00:41:50.860 identity as human beings.

00:41:52.720 And this is a secular culture trying to grasp at explaining who man is and what gives us 0.56

00:41:59.260 meaning and value and purpose.

00:42:01.420 And as we see in the scriptures, when we pursue that from a, uh, you know, as Solomon would

00:42:06.300 say below the sun or from an earthly perspective, it shouldn't surprise us that where we land

00:42:11.580 now is vanity, futility.

00:42:14.680 And that's what we see being promoted on places like tick tock.

00:42:19.120 That's what we see unfolding in our culture.

00:42:21.220 Our culture sociologically is futility and vanity.

00:42:25.420 And the Bible told that story already that when we pursue these things, this is the end

00:42:30.380 of it.

00:42:30.760 Um, but in, in our human disposition, we have a hard time seeing it because it took, you

00:42:35.260 know, nearly a century for it to unfold.

00:42:37.240 Uh, but these ideas have consequences and we're, we're picking the fruit now of these ideological,

00:42:43.260 uh, views that have, that have, uh, been growing from seed form for over a hundred years.

00:42:49.860 Yep.

00:42:50.800 Yep.

00:42:51.300 I think you're absolutely right.

00:43:04.460 What is your thought about, um, social emotional learning curriculum that's in schools to supposedly

00:43:13.940 try to deal with this problem of, um, kids being mentally unhealthy.

00:43:20.540 It's the idea that kids really need to learn to have empathy for themselves and others.

00:43:27.320 And once they do that, then they will be able to process their emotions better and we'll all

00:43:33.400 live in a much more peaceful and a more just, um, society.

00:43:38.280 Do you think there's anything good to that?

00:43:40.120 Uh, I don't, I don't think it's a healthy pursuit for sure.

00:43:44.620 And I like, um, social emotional learning, basically if you were to take, um, several

00:43:50.340 ideas and, and sort of create a recipe, if you will, um, somebody like Dewey in his sociological

00:43:56.540 learning theory, um, if you take somebody like Carl Rogers in his non-authoritarian approach

00:44:02.300 to education, which we see flourish in the sixties and seventies, um, we see all that sort of mixed

00:44:08.040 in a blender and, and, uh, along with Freud's psychotherapeutic approach to human problems

00:44:13.420 that these things come from early, uh, experiences in childhood that, that create then, uh, a very

00:44:19.740 sensitive, uh, human being that, that anything in the environment can trigger who we are and

00:44:24.160 what we do.

00:44:24.880 So you take that as a recipe, you, you blend it up and, and outcome something like social

00:44:30.040 learning theory.

00:44:30.700 Now people will, um, hear something like that and say, oh man, this is a, this is really helpful

00:44:36.000 because it's, it's really focusing on the kids and trying to, to catch, you know, triggers

00:44:40.460 of trauma early on in child's life.

00:44:42.600 Well, I appreciate that people are trying to, you know, deal with children in, in how they 0.83

00:44:47.720 describe their brokenness.

00:44:48.800 But, but what we can't miss is that these things are not idea free.

00:44:53.740 They're not philosophically free.

00:44:55.820 Uh, they come with a price and the price that they bring is that futility that I described.

00:45:00.860 So what's happening is effectively we're placing a lot of pressure on teachers.

00:45:05.600 Um, to do the, the diagnosing, or I've had several, several, uh, moms come to me and

00:45:11.860 say, my child was diagnosed with ADHD.

00:45:14.600 And they've told me that if I don't go see a psychiatrist that they can't be let back

00:45:19.080 in the classroom.

00:45:19.640 This is a small little, uh, example, but I'm like, okay, tell me about that process.

00:45:25.100 How did that happen?

00:45:25.760 Cause you said you need to see a psychiatrist.

00:45:27.380 You mean the psychiatrist didn't, didn't, uh, diagnose you?

00:45:30.740 No, no.

00:45:31.140 That, that the teacher said, if I don't go see a psychiatrist that I can't, I can't

00:45:35.480 come back to the class.

00:45:36.400 My child can't come back to the classroom.

00:45:37.840 So what you're seeing on the front end is that, um, you know, their teachers are being

00:45:42.240 trained and they're saying that this is the best thing to keep all the other kids really

00:45:46.220 healthy.

00:45:47.000 Um, but what we're doing, okay, if I were to boil this down in a nutshell, what we're

00:45:50.500 doing is we're saying that children get meaning, value, and purpose in their sociological

00:45:55.140 environment.

00:45:55.660 Now I want you to pay attention to what's happening here.

00:45:58.120 What's happening here is we are measuring ourself by the environment that we find ourself

00:46:02.960 in.

00:46:03.640 And that if an environment itself is not pleasing, then we can't flourish.

00:46:08.300 What that does is it describes that we as human beings are at the mercy of the environment

00:46:12.940 that we find ourself in.

00:46:14.900 Nothing could be more antithetical to the truth of the gospel of Christ.

00:46:19.340 The Bible doesn't put us at the mercy of our environmental circumstances.

00:46:23.220 The Bible puts us at the mercy of Christ and that no matter what we can flourish, no matter

00:46:28.100 how difficult the situation.

00:46:29.580 So this is building really in positive language, uh, a setting to where, you know, we as people

00:46:35.600 in our value and, and, uh, the way we measure our purpose is based on the environment that

00:46:40.540 we find ourself around and what the key to happiness or hope is in life is, is finding

00:46:46.220 ourself insulated in a, in a proper environment.

00:46:48.700 We don't have the power as human beings to do that.

00:46:51.620 I mean, uh, we don't have the power to insulate ourself enough from the destruction of a cursed

00:46:57.000 world.

00:46:57.600 Uh, and so that's a futile pursuit that we're setting our children up for failure.

00:47:01.900 Um, thinking that if they can get in touch with self-awareness and their own feelings,

00:47:06.360 then they'll understand themselves better and they'll be able to thrive and flourish in

00:47:11.500 life.

00:47:11.940 And it's setting our children up, uh, for failure because now you, you add in the, the,

00:47:17.120 to the recipe, social media, and we've even, we're even seeing at Congress, the, the bickering

00:47:21.880 back and forth about the influence of social media on the mental health of our, our young

00:47:26.720 people.

00:47:27.200 And now this is, this is something that's starting in social, uh, learning, you know, very

00:47:32.760 early on in our elementary schools, moving all the way up where we're taught that that's

00:47:37.160 how we get in tune with who we are.

00:47:38.380 And really it's a form of Gnosticism.

00:47:41.300 Yeah.

00:47:42.240 Yep.

00:47:42.640 It is that there is some kind of higher special knowing that you have access to.

00:47:47.000 If you take this journey deep into your heart, you can, this key of SEL can like open up

00:47:52.160 your heart and all of this wisdom will come out and finally it'll be this full, complete

00:47:55.820 person.

00:47:56.540 You're exactly right.

00:47:57.480 Which by the way, is what the author of many of these kinds of personality tests, like Carl

00:48:01.820 Zhang, like they all believed that too.

00:48:04.380 And so it really is all connected.

00:48:05.540 Um, well, we don't have that much more time and this is kind of a, this kind of a big question,

00:48:10.320 but I'm curious, what is your thought about empathy?

00:48:15.280 Because it is the virtue.

00:48:17.940 So we are told that we must pursue first.

00:48:22.980 It is the primary virtue.

00:48:25.040 If you are empathetic, then you will draw this XYZ conclusion.

00:48:29.660 If you are empathetic, then you will finally be virtuous.

00:48:34.440 You will finally be kind.

00:48:35.660 You'll finally be moral.

00:48:37.460 What is your thought about this heavy emphasis on empathy that seems to be more prevalent

00:48:44.800 than ever, at least in my estimation?

00:48:47.800 Yeah, that's really, really good question.

00:48:49.160 And some of this is a question regarding semantics and how we think about this term,

00:48:53.940 empathy, empathy, empathy historically was not a terrible term.

00:48:58.620 It wasn't, it wasn't a bad term. 1.00

00:49:00.300 It was trying to identify with the suffering of someone else, even the idea of coming alongside

00:49:04.920 someone and, and, and helping them through their difficulty and suffering.

00:49:09.100 The form that it's taken today and the way it's used is, is in terms of, um, I'll add a,

00:49:15.100 a qualifier, unconditional empathy.

00:49:17.760 Um, which means that then I have to give my unconditional regard for someone else.

00:49:22.440 And this gets back to that environmental perspective I was describing that if I can't

00:49:26.600 be empathetic and identify with someone, well, first of all, cause I haven't had that experience.

00:49:30.980 I can't speak into their life or really bear a burden genuinely with them cause I don't

00:49:35.480 know them or I don't understand them.

00:49:37.240 The second problem with that idea of unconditional empathy is it really, uh, creates an environment

00:49:43.840 where if a person is not affirmed at everything that they do, then it becomes an unhealthy

00:49:50.260 vitriolic state.

00:49:52.400 Uh, biblically, we can't live like that, right?

00:49:55.000 The Bible tells us to, to be sympathetic, uh, toward those who are broken, those who are

00:50:00.720 downtrodden, those who are hurting.

00:50:02.340 We see Jesus doing this in, in the, in the, in the gospels in the new Testament.

00:50:06.460 We see his followers are taught to care for those James 1, 27, uh, orphans and widows,

00:50:13.220 those who are downtrodden and, and, and that sort of thing, but it's never to leave them

00:50:17.340 in that place.

00:50:18.500 It's never to, to help them remain into the mess that they, they find themselves in.

00:50:23.640 How do we, how do we help to get them out according to God's ways, give them genuine,

00:50:27.740 legitimate hope.

00:50:28.780 And so for us as Christians, we can't be empathetic endlessly or unconditionally.

00:50:34.460 There's a time where, you know, if someone's sitting across from me and I'm seeing that they're

00:50:38.560 making decisions that are sinful decisions, it's, that's, uh, leading to their self-destruction.

00:50:43.820 Um, it's actually unloving for me to leave them on that path of self-destruction and not

00:50:49.360 give them what the scripture says.

00:50:50.860 So there comes a point in time where we have to offer sympathetic disagreement.

00:50:54.640 And we, as Ephesians 4, 15 would describe it, speak the truth in love to someone.

00:51:00.380 But this is, you know, the, the culture that we're in right now, we're, we're creating where

00:51:05.620 free speech is, is going to be questioned and it's going to be described as being hate

00:51:09.860 speech, especially if we were to, to warn someone against their own folly.

00:51:14.260 You take the, the transgender movement that's happening right now, right?

00:51:17.420 If you, if you're not empathetic and identify with their gender fluidity and transition, then

00:51:22.280 you become the one that's actually contributing to, uh, the detriment of their mental health.

00:51:27.900 Um, that's what empathy in the modern sense is creating.

00:51:32.000 Uh, it's creating sort of a bubble around people that you become the bad guy, or you

00:51:37.860 become the, the evil one, or you become the, the hateful person.

00:51:42.400 Um, if you genuinely speak truth to people in, in, in love and in grace, cause we can speak

00:51:47.980 truth wrongly.

00:51:48.680 We shouldn't speak truth wrongly, uh, but speaking the truth and love to people.

00:51:52.100 And so it really disregards this idea of, of there's a time where we, we, uh,

00:51:57.760 warn people, we speak the truth in, in, in a healthy way.

00:52:01.200 Um, and so I think empathy in its current sense and it's unconditional regard, uh, that

00:52:06.500 we see now is, is something that is harmful, even very dangerous.

00:52:10.400 And I hope people don't hear me say we ought not to be sympathetic or empathetic with people.

00:52:16.600 That's not what I'm saying.

00:52:17.520 What I'm saying is the way it's used now in terms of, uh, an unconditional approach where,

00:52:23.000 uh, we're just intended to be, um, accepting and that acceptance is the means to help.

00:52:29.640 And I think that's unchristian and very dangerous culture. 1.00

00:52:34.560 Well, you've given us a lot to chew on and a lot of great wisdom.

00:52:38.220 Your scripture recall is incredible and just, it's a gift.

00:52:41.640 It's a gift to my audience.

00:52:42.800 I'm sure it's a gift to everyone you speak to on a daily basis.

00:52:45.760 So I'm thankful for that.

00:52:47.620 Uh, from time to time, I ask the right guests to end the conversation by sharing the gospel.

00:52:55.480 So if someone were to ask you, Dr. Johnson, what is the gospel?

00:53:00.940 What would you tell them?

00:53:03.120 I think the gospel is that God created us as human beings.

00:53:07.820 He created us with meaning, purpose, and value.

00:53:10.880 But the Bible describes very clearly that we have missed the mark.

00:53:14.560 We are born into sin.

00:53:16.640 Um, and we see that evidentially by the way in which we live, that we choose to live for

00:53:22.520 ourself more than we choose to live for anything else.

00:53:25.080 And especially for the glory of God.

00:53:26.960 And in missing that mark, the Bible says that we owe God a great debt, that, that we will

00:53:32.120 endure the wrath of God.

00:53:33.980 If we remain in our sin, that, that sin, uh, we have a payment that we are, we, we, that

00:53:40.640 is due to God, um, um, for our sin.

00:53:43.600 And, uh, if we don't, if we can't make that payment, there's nothing within us that says

00:53:48.440 we can pay an eternal debt that we owe to an eternal God.

00:53:52.640 Uh, and so we are helpless and hopeless in and of ourselves.

00:53:55.900 But the Bible tells us that there's good news and everybody knows that what I just described

00:54:01.460 is true experientially, right?

00:54:03.260 When we live in life, we know that when we try to muddle about with our own strength,

00:54:08.080 we find ourself failing over and over again.

00:54:10.120 There's never peace around the next corner.

00:54:12.360 Uh, we know that to be true.

00:54:13.800 And that's the testimony of scripture about our, ourselves and our pursuit.

00:54:17.400 But the beauty is that God was telling a story from the very beginning when man, man fell,

00:54:23.540 uh, God was, he, he was enacting a redemptive story.

00:54:28.380 And the centerpiece of that story is his son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

00:54:31.640 And we see Jesus who comes in the form of a baby, the most, uh, humble.

00:54:36.240 He's identifying with us as being born in the flesh, living among us.

00:54:41.480 Uh, and he lived, the Bible says a perfect life, which means he was obedient fully.

00:54:45.840 This is important because he was born of a virgin.

00:54:48.900 So he didn't inherit our own sin, uh, in humanity.

00:54:51.940 So he was a perfect sacrifice.

00:54:53.640 He lived perfectly in obedience to God.

00:54:56.500 Yet he willingly, the Bible says he gave himself up for us to ransom us, uh, to himself.

00:55:04.300 And he calls us to repent and believe.

00:55:06.660 And the Bible describes that he, he died for, he lived for a righteous life.

00:55:11.200 He died for our sins.

00:55:12.300 He was buried three days, uh, based on the acceptance of God, of Jesus's sacrifice.

00:55:17.260 He rose again.

00:55:18.840 And now, uh, we have the opportunity to respond in repentance and faith.

00:55:25.200 And that's the call for us when we see our emptiness and our brokenness and the Lord brings

00:55:30.400 us back to life.

00:55:31.280 And we see that we call upon Jesus as the only one who can, uh, pay the debt of our sin.

00:55:37.560 Uh, and then we, we can walk faithfully with the Lord forever.

00:55:41.080 And, and that word is really important of what happens that he forgives our sin.

00:55:46.360 He counts us as righteous before God, no longer holding that sin against us.

00:55:51.080 So that, that, that way no longer do we have the wrath of God placed on us, but we can walk

00:55:56.800 at peace.

00:55:57.460 And one of the most important passages, and I'll read it because it's that clear Romans chapter

00:56:03.180 five, verse one, uh, sorry for the, the sound of pages turning, but it's good for people

00:56:09.040 to hear what the word says here.

00:56:10.600 And this is the summation of it, uh, Romans five, one, therefore, since we have been justified

00:56:16.560 by faith, that we have faith in the work that Christ has done for us, nothing we can do to

00:56:22.340 earn salvation.

00:56:23.480 We have faith.

00:56:24.560 We, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

00:56:27.880 That's the gospel is that we have faith in the work and the person, the life, death, burial

00:56:33.780 and resurrection of Jesus, uh, and that he forgives our sin.

00:56:37.860 He's paid that debt to God.

00:56:40.320 He offered himself as a sacrifice to the Lord and he washes our sin clean.

00:56:45.140 And we can now be at peace with God.

00:56:47.860 We're no longer in enmity with God.

00:56:49.420 And I'm just telling you as someone who's walked that since I was 11, seeing the beauty

00:56:54.200 of what God has done for me in the Lord Jesus, uh, there's nothing that's more satisfying.

00:56:58.700 There's nothing that's more peace giving.

00:57:00.580 There's nothing that, that satisfies my soul more through the turmoil and difficulties of

00:57:06.000 life than being at peace with God.

00:57:08.980 And that's made possible through, through Jesus.

00:57:10.940 So thanks for the opportunity.

00:57:12.600 Yes.

00:57:12.920 Amen.

00:57:13.240 Well, thank you so much, Dr. Johnson, and thanks for taking the time to come on.

00:57:17.420 I really appreciate it.

00:57:19.340 Um, and where can people connect with you or find you?

00:57:24.200 Um, yeah, so, uh, I'm a faculty member at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

00:57:29.720 You can see me on the faculty page there.

00:57:31.280 And then at, um, ACBC, the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors.

00:57:35.300 And that website is biblicalcounseling.com.

00:57:37.880 I also lead a podcast called the Truth and Love Podcast.

00:57:41.860 Um, we'd love to, to hear, hear from you guys.

00:57:44.780 Truth and Love Podcast.

00:57:45.760 Perfect.

00:57:46.240 Well, thank you so much.

00:57:47.320 I really appreciate you taking the time to come on.

00:57:50.300 Great.

00:57:50.800 Thank you.

00:57:51.120 Thank you.

00:57:54.200 Thank you.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - May 08, 2024

Ep 999 ｜ The Enneagram Scam ｜ Guest： Dr. Dale Johnson

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