Ep 999 ｜ The Enneagram Scam ｜ Guest： Dr. Dale Johnson
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Summary
Dr. Dale Johnson is the Executive Director of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors and host of the podcast, The Truth in Love. In this episode, Dr. Johnson talks about the difference between secular psychology and biblical counseling, and why there is a difference between them.
Transcript
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Should we be going to psychiatrists, psychologists?
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What is the difference between secular psychology and biblical counseling?
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What is the difference between secular mental health and the biblical perspective on our
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This was a wonderful, insightful conversation from Dr. Dale Johnson.
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He is the executive director of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors.
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He is the host of the podcast, The Truth in Love podcast.
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This was an amazing, very encouraging conversation as I heard the wisdom that he offered on what
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the Bible actually says about how Christ can guide and help and sanctify our mind and heart.
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Really, really good stuff that I know you guys are going to enjoy on today's episode of
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Wellness Wednesday on Relatable, which is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
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Dr. Johnson, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.
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Before we get started, can you just tell us who you are and what you do?
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Yeah, my name is Dale Johnson, and I am a professor of biblical counseling at Midwestern
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And I am also the executive director at ACBC, which is the Association of Certified Biblical
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And those are two roles that take up most of my time.
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We've happily married for 23 years and have six children as well, so from college all the
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Well, I want to talk to you about biblical counseling.
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You know, this conversation about counseling and therapy, what's needed, what's not, what
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type of therapy or counseling is good, has been in conversation for a long time among
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Christians with a lot of different perspectives.
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What I've realized is that a lot of people don't know that there is actually a difference
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between biblical counseling and what's called Christian counseling.
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And I just want to hear from you, like, what is the difference and why do you care about
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Let me start even by the way that you framed it, because that's how most people ask the
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They will ask the question, well, pragmatically, what's the difference?
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Because what we're looking for is we're trying to decide, okay, what do we think will help
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I would like to take that a step back and let us describe the distinctions of the types
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of counseling so that we can understand that not only do they have different perspectives,
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So for me, anybody who goes into counseling at any level, no matter how secular, you don't
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You go into that type of work because you have some concern about people who are broken
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But there is a distinction, and it's really important.
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So if we were to think about it on a spectrum, so you've got a secular viewpoint, which is rooted
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We don't believe in a reality of His wisdom or anything about really the supernatural.
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That's the perspective of most secularists, especially post-1859, which is a really important
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But it's secular, meaning that it comes from human wisdom specifically.
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We can talk about the empirical nature of how to pursue that type of wisdom, but it's
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secular in its perspective, meaning that it's done within a closed system, and we're trying
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to achieve human wisdom, what we can observe and see with the natural eye, and that's really
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You've got a middle position in the spectrum that you articulated as Christian counseling,
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And essentially what's happening there is there's a perspective that we can take wisdom from
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We can integrate that with theological truths to make sense of life, to understand human
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nature or certain problems, or we start to compartmentalize humanity into physiological
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or biological, psychological, and soulish type issues or spiritual issues.
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And so that framework is built in the middle section, this Christian counseling, and there's
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So not every person who does integration is exactly the same.
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There's a spectrum of how people articulate that.
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But essentially what you're looking at is, you know, an overview is taking the wisdom
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of man and the wisdom of God and trying to put those two together.
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In biblical counseling, what we try and do is say, you know what, it's our perspective
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that God has given us everything we need for life and godliness.
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And if he's done that based on his character, that we choose to understand his wisdom about
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life, about reality, the creation that he's made, and the creatures that he's made, and
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that he's given us insight on not just what reality is for us as creatures, but what's broken
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And I think a lot of people, you know, as I mentioned, and as you mentioned, don't really
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But there's also a specific track that you can take in your education to become a biblical
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counselor that you don't have to if you are calling yourself a Christian counselor.
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Yeah, as far as educationally, a couple of different routes.
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You know, if we were to contrast that from a secular perspective, obviously, most people
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are trying to pursue licensure, or even from a Christian counseling perspective, they're
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So there's a federal regulation called KCREP, which is basically your educational standards,
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and every school in every state has to meet those standards.
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And then a person is trying to pursue certain education requirements that are laid out by
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the federal government and then specific in each state.
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That's different than biblical counseling, because what we believe in biblical counseling
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is the best training that you can receive to do biblical counseling is not psychological
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in nature, but it's biblical and theological in nature.
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Because the point that I try to make that I think is so relevant, which we've understood
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in church history very well, we seem to have lost understanding of this in the modern,
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is in order to understand man, man is a dependent being.
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And so we can't understand man without understanding the independent being who is God.
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And in order to understand the nature of man, what man's purpose is, what we're for, how man
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was designed to work, how we actually operate, we have to understand theology first.
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So a theological training, biblical training, how to understand the scriptures really best helps
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us to understand man, because man can't be understood unless we understand him in relation
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And how would you tell someone who is considering counseling, but they just don't know, do they
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Is their problem severe enough to go see a professional?
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How do you help someone decide whether it's time or whether it's right for them to go see
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I think when there's, the way I describe it is the church is intended to do normal processes
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If you look at the function that's described in the scriptures about what the church is
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to do, every function of the local church is intended for the purpose of soul care, from
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evangelism to preaching to the one another's to church discipline.
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All these things are about how do we grow people to walk faithfully in Christ?
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How do we minister to them when they're suffering, when they're faint hearted and so on?
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So every ministry of the word of the church is intended to bring light to darkness of the
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The second piece is when do we know we should take some intensive, what we would call intensive
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Well, if there's an acute problem that is hindering your normal process of growth or your normal
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function, then maybe it's time to sit down with somebody and let's deal with this particular
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problem, help you get over that hump, scripturally speaking.
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And then let's move you forward back and assimilate you back into the normal processes of care.
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So, you know, when I think about professionalism, I can go into a whole diatribe, of course, about
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how I think about professionalism in terms of counseling.
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I think what we've made it is we've used that language of professionalism in counseling or
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professionalized counseling to such a degree that we've diminished the biblical viewpoint
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of what discipleship is intended to accomplish, which is for the purpose of stabilizing the
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If you take somewhere like Ephesians 4, to grow up into the measure, the stature, the fullness
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of Christ is to stabilize us so that we're not tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.
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So there's a critical piece that we see, Psalm 19, 7, for example, the law of the Lord is
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So the Bible is staking claim that it does that type of soul work, that that's the domain
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of God and the domain of his church and the truth that he's given us to accomplish that
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Do you find that men have a more difficult time than women coming to a biblical counselor
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or any counselor and properly assessing when they need kind of outside help in working through
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whatever it is that is inhibiting them from their normal processes, their spiritual life?
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And so it's hard for us to hear instruction from another person.
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But the Proverbs calls us fools if we're not willing to receive instruction.
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I think the second piece of that is men have a tendency to compartmentalize issues in their
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And so when there might be a major issue in one aspect of their life, they're not allowing
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it to filter in and affect some of the other areas of their life, like their job or whatever.
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And so, you know, there are many ways in which a man might feel like, you know, at home it's
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going terribly, but in my job, things seem to be going well and I don't feel the pressure
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that I need, you know, some sort of outside help.
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Where sometimes ladies, you know, their life is all intertwined and they have a hard time
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seeing one aspect of their life divorced from another aspect of their life.
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So there's much more of a willingness to be humble and to seek help more often before
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Yeah, I feel that women are typically more likely to be kind of external processors.
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I mean, that's what we did throughout our adolescence.
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That was, you know, every like sleepover, every friend date, like every time you hang out,
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you're externally processing your feelings, you're talking about your relationship, how
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Whereas I know I'm generalizing here, but guys are typically doing activities.
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They're not necessarily sitting down and talking out how they feel and what's going on in their
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And as you said, they can compartmentalize those things.
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So now as an adult learning, oh, actually, these feelings have to be processed and talked
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That is, I think, a difficult thing to come to terms with, especially as an adult and especially
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if you feel, which you do as a Christian man, you need to be like the rock for your family.
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I think sometimes when we or maybe when men here have to be a rock for my family, that
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means I can't have any emotions or I can't have any problems or I can't have any needs
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And counseling is almost like an admission that you are needy in some way or that you're
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insufficient or I don't want to say unstable, like in the mental way, but you know, like
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Yes, from pride, but also in just wanting to be the, you know, source of strength for your
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And I think that plays into even 2 Corinthians 12, 9, where Paul describes his own weakness
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and that Christ is made perfect in that weakness is that's a part of a spiritual battle for
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a man as the head of the household, as you mentioned, where he's supposed to be strong.
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But part of the paradox of the Christian life is that it's okay to embrace our weaknesses
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That strength is not like this therapeutic culture says, building the self from within.
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In fact, that's antithetical to what the gospel actually calls us to.
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It's to embrace those weaknesses and be unafraid with humility to embrace those weaknesses,
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knowing that it's through those that Christ is actually demonstrated strong.
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So that's a part of the paradox and struggle that I think is quite spiritual for men in their
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And you know, I see that among women too, this kind of self-help, self-love culture that has
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But certainly in the past, I don't know, 10 to 20 years with popular psychologists and maybe even
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like pseudo psychologists, so people who offer psychological advice on Instagram, but maybe
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aren't actually psychologists, this emphasis on self-love as the solution to all of your problems
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and self-sufficiency as the answer to everything, that you are enough.
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You're enough for yourself, and if you just discover yourself, fulfill yourself, make yourself
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happy, do what you want, follow your dreams, then you will finally and fully be fulfilled,
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that you have everything inside you that you need to be healed and to be whole and to be
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I mean, that is the path that so many female liberating books are taking us down today.
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I would say even sometimes with a Christian veneer over it, that, oh, Jesus told you to
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That means you got to love yourself first, and you got to think of yourself first.
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You got to prioritize all of your wants all the time.
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But I love what you said, that that idea that the self is the source of strength and satisfaction
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Yeah, I think you're identifying exactly one of the key issues of our therapeutic culture.
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Many call it the therapeutic gospel, because we've described that as being something that's
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We've described that as being something that's good.
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But we've got to reckon these things according to the way God describes them.
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God describes that perspective as being something that's not good, but in the category of evil.
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In fact, in Luke 9, 23, for example, when Jesus calls his disciples, he says,
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If anyone wishes to be my disciple, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.
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That's the first call that he makes to a disciple is not to build the self, to grow the self,
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Because we weren't made to live by us, for us, or through us.
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We were made to live by, for, and through Christ.
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If you think of Philippians 3, 3, when Paul says,
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Well, this whole modern movement is really about building the self to such a degree that
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we're putting confidence in our flesh and the strength of our flesh, thinking that the
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And that's actually a bait and switch from the evil one, because us finding strength in
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ourself is futile thinking, according to Ecclesiastes.
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Us finding strength in the things of the earth, the Bible says, is futile in thinking.
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And I think that's what's increasing our levels of anxiety, our levels of depression,
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We see the emptiness of those, and it only exacerbates the problem.
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It doesn't bring peace, like what we're searching after, because it's the wrong means to get there.
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I like to say that the self can't be both the problem and the solution.
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Or not even, I wouldn't even say that Satan wants you to think that you are the problem.
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He wants you to think that society is the problem, that everyone else is the problem,
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that everyone's expectations and demands and the responsibilities that you have,
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The solution is in the inside, when really the opposite is true.
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The problems are in the inside, and the solution is outside of us in our creator,
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because the self can't be both the problem and the solution.
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If inside of ourselves we're finding the depression, the anxiety, the insufficiency,
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the inadequacy, the insecurity that is weighing us down,
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we're not going to find the solution to those things in the same place that we're finding our problems.
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And of course, as you have articulated so well, and as scripture teaches repeatedly,
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He actually made us to be needy and made us to be insufficient so that his power can be perfected
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But that's a very countercultural message today.
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Do you find in your profession and in your practice that reminding people that we are not
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called to self-fulfillment and self-glory and self-help, that that is a difficult message for
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And that's a part of the difficulty, I think, that we face in the church is we have,
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as you mentioned, Christianized these secular ideas.
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And I think because we've done this for so long, I mean, we're talking about really since
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the 1920s, we've been doing this fairly regular.
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And you can, there are marks before that, but there's a stark contrast starting in the
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And so that's infiltrated our churches and not just liberal churches.
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It's infiltrated very conservative churches as sort of part and parcel of how we think about
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We've compartmentalized ourselves to a psychological being, a spiritual being, believing fully that,
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yes, the Bible is sufficient for all things spiritual, but that's a compartmentalization.
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It's a deducing of the beauty of the sufficiency of Scripture and what it's claiming that it
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And so, yeah, I think this is a constant uphill battle that we're fighting.
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I think often of Colossians 2, 8, where Paul tells us that we are to guard against empty
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And I think this is one of those empty philosophies and vain deceptions that we are intrigued by and
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lured toward because we think it does empower us in some way to pursue, you know, peace and
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healing and hope and help and all these different things that we so long for and desire.
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But we have to return back to what does the Scripture actually tell us?
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What does the Scripture describe is the means, not just the goal, because lots of people have
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The problem is the means by which we get there.
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He's also concerned about the means that we get there.
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And He's provided the way that we are to do that in His Word.
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Can I ask you what you think about the Enneagram and or maybe different personality tests in
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general and how churches have brought in the Enneagram kind of as a tool to understanding
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the self and even understanding the self in relation to your spouse or others or God?
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So I'll give you the short is I'm not a fan at all of the Enneagram.
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I had a doctoral student, Rin Cherry, wrote on this, and he's asking the question, is this
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And the answer to that question is, no, it's not Christian.
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I think we get enamored with what I call explanatory power.
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And from our finite minds, what we try and do is we see that people have different personalities
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or maybe we would call it different dispositions.
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Historically, people call those different constitutions.
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And so we see those things and we're trying to give explanation as to why is this happening
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And I think what we start to grasp at are people who have tried to give explanation to
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The problem is we often are fooled by and we have a tendency to grasp at explanations that
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are disconnected from reality where they give partial truths where we can identify, yeah,
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I've had that experience or yes, I feel like that sometimes.
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And I think that's a part of what's happening with the Enneagram.
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And listen, we can go through a whole history of personality testing and their rise and fall
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and the multiplicity of those things because they don't grasp the depth of humanity and
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And because they miss those points, they rise and fall in popularity.
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And I think the Enneagram is certainly in process of that.
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I think this one is a little bit more dangerous in the sense that it promotes definite New Age
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It's trying to explain from a, you know, those who use it Christianly, it's trying to
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explain, you know, the detriments that we have or the brokenness, the effects of sin
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And that in and of itself, I think, divorces us from the biblical explanation of what ails
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And so what will happen ultimately when we redefine the problems that we have in our
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humanity, we start to grasp at different solutions that are earthly and unbiblical, thinking that
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we're empowered to overcome these personality traits or, you know, being able to cultivate
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relationship with somebody who's a different number than you are or compatibility with a
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And we think about that in terms of, well, this is what's good and right.
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When scripturally, we are called to die to those self-made preferences, that understanding
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of even strengths and weaknesses, so that we get over ourselves and we learn to love other
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And this is the beauty of the church, is that you should see a group of diverse people from
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different backgrounds and socioeconomic statuses, and those people shouldn't be worshiping together.
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But the beauty of that is that the Lord brings peace to us all to where we have one common
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And I think the Enneagram is something that unintentionally builds division, even from a
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Christian perspective, not to mention, as I did before, the New Age perspective that created
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I hadn't thought about the division piece of it.
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Um, the demonic and kind of, uh, occultish origins of it definitely have concerned me.
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That was kind of when it was coming to fame, I would say, gosh, probably back in like 2011
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That's at least when I first heard of it, and I thought that it was great.
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And it was marketed to me as Christian, that Jesus actually represents like the perfect
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And it is presented to us as a way to actually build our relationships and help our relationships.
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But I can see what you say being true and that, oh, that person's a five.
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He's a seven and I'm a two wing one, whatever it is.
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And it actually, it seems like it could set up yet another obstacle, um, in reconciliation
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in unity, because we're thinking about things through the perspective of our personality traits
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I also think it can tempt people into seeing their sin as personality quirks.
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Well, I just don't want to evangelize because I'm a five.
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Well, I just hold everyone to this impossible standard of perfection because I'm a one.
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But these are sins that we have to repent of, right?
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No matter if they're a part of our Enneagram number.
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And that, yeah, I think that can inhibit not just relationships, but also sanctification,
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Yeah, I would say it's, it's pretty consistent and, and I think you're spot on in how you
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It becomes a hindrance and a detractor to how we see ourselves.
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We think it gives us insight into who we really are as a person.
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Um, and I think that's a part of the danger of it, because as you said, these could be
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issues of sin, but we're not pursuing, uh, Christ's answer of sanctification, crucifying,
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mortifying those particular sins that, that, you know, keep division between us as individuals.
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Uh, we, we start seeking other types of solutions and, uh, and that's the danger of it.
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Do you also see a stigma when it comes to counseling individuals about talking about
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Maybe you don't see this because the people who are using biblical counseling are hoping
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to actually get a biblical response, but nowadays talking about the reality of sin, sexual sin,
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God's parameters and design for gender, marriage, sexuality, all of these things, talking about
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That is certainly unpopular, even from many pulpits today.
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And it's described certainly by the secular world as unhealthy or even abusive or affirming
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There are all of these, you know, very vitriolic words used to describe basic Christian teachings
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Is that a challenge that biblical counselors face today as far as how they are?
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I think it's, you know, it's always a challenge.
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I think biblical counseling really has that caricature that, you know, all we deal with
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And, um, you know, to a degree we could, you know, if you think from a biblical perspective,
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every problem that human, that we face as humanity is because of sin.
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Now people will say, well, what do you mean by that?
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Um, if we look at the narrative of scripture and the Christian, um, unveiling of progressive
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revelation, Genesis chapter three is really critical because the curse of the world, uh,
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matters, the impact of sin on us, whether that's natural disasters or other people sinning
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It doesn't mean that I'm personally responsible for what somebody else does to me or a natural
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disaster happening, but I still have to deal with this idea of sin and how it impacts
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And this is really key, Allie Beth, that I think a lot of people miss is that we have
00:28:04.440
a tendency to think, well, if we don't categorize it as sin, then, then, um, I'm not a moral agent
00:28:12.180
Um, I can have, you know, an excuse as to why I shouldn't deal with this.
00:28:15.760
I think that's one of the biggest hurdles that people have to get over no matter the suffering
00:28:19.980
that we experience in life, whether it's from consequences of our own personal sin or from,
00:28:25.080
you know, the, the effects of the curse of sin on the world and other people.
00:28:30.260
We still have a moral obligation before God to respond appropriately, uh, to him, to honor
00:28:38.200
So I think discussion about sin has sort of, uh, you know, went out of vogue or out of popularity.
00:28:45.540
And I think people don't realize the danger of it.
00:28:48.560
When, when we set aside this language of sin that, that the scripture describes, um, not only
00:28:55.120
are we misunderstanding the genuine problems that humanity faces, but we, we then therefore
00:29:04.980
And that's the subtlety that I think that's happening because every counseling system has
00:29:10.380
several things, no matter who you look at, what, what theorist, uh, every counseling system
00:29:16.260
They have a perspective of what they think is normal.
00:29:18.560
They have a perspective of what they think is broken in humanity, and they have a perspective
00:29:29.620
Those are fundamentally philosophical pursuits.
00:29:33.100
Most people don't realize that, that counseling based on any type of psychology is, is a philosophical
00:29:42.200
And that, that's a categorical mistake that most people make.
00:29:45.200
And so therefore, you know, we, we, we often get, um, we're, we're disillusioned with, uh,
00:29:52.000
some of the therapy that's offered because we think, well, this is something that could
00:29:55.360
be helpful when it's offering a different way of wisdom, uh, than what the scripture offers.
00:30:00.760
So, uh, sin really is under the microscope because if, as Freud thought, if we could remove
00:30:06.720
Augustine's view of original sin, uh, now we've opened up the door where, where his psychotherapeutic
00:30:13.400
and the modern therapeutic gospel, um, can thrive.
00:30:17.000
And that's exactly what you see happening today.
00:30:22.220
The only sin today is saying that there is sin, ironically enough.
00:30:30.760
So what does it mean from a biblical perspective to be mentally and emotionally healthy in general?
00:30:50.040
So let me, let me start, um, I'll start, um, just sort of broad so people can understand.
00:30:56.660
So the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, right?
00:30:59.760
That's the, the, what most people describe as the Bible of psychology and the Bible of
00:31:05.200
It's this massive book, thousand pages that has nearly 500 diagnoses in it.
00:31:10.840
And it's the, the labels that everyone hears about in terms of mental disorders or quote
00:31:20.620
And if it's a book about abnormalities, what's really interesting is they never give a perception
00:31:25.780
So the question really that people should have is, is how do we know what's abnormal if we
00:31:31.300
don't have some sort of plumb line or a baseline of what's normal?
00:31:34.560
And so we, we're grasping after what we think is mentally and emotionally healthy, uh, disposition
00:31:40.260
when we, we don't even really have an understanding of what, what is normal.
00:31:44.760
And what you see is this is culturally appraised.
00:31:47.760
This is why the DSM thrives in a place like the West and particularly in America, but you
00:31:53.040
can't just superimpose those same ideas, uh, in a place like Africa or in the, in the far
00:31:58.120
East because they have very different worldviews.
00:32:00.600
So this is something that's culturally appraised that should tell us a couple of things.
00:32:04.980
Is if they can't define what's normal, how can they ever describe what is abnormal functioning?
00:32:10.720
It's just a, simply a expression of things that are unwanted or we think are awkward socially.
00:32:15.720
I'm not saying those things, you know, people don't experience some of those feelings or,
00:32:19.560
you know, uh, different dispositions that that's not the argument, but it does bring
00:32:25.060
us to the question of what does it mean to be normal?
00:32:28.920
If we're made in the image of God, um, then what it means to be healthy and what it means
00:32:34.660
to be normal is that we reflect the character and the nature and the glory of God.
00:32:39.480
And based on the testimony of scripture, the only way that happened is by the, is by the
00:32:44.200
redemption that's found in the Lord Jesus Christ.
00:32:46.380
So the only way in which we can walk stable in life, the only way that we can have peace
00:32:52.000
Romans 5, 1 is that we are right with God first.
00:32:55.900
And that then allows us sociologically to have good relationship with other people.
00:33:01.180
We can deal with, you know, adversity and difficulties that happen in life in a much more stable way,
00:33:06.040
not perfect for sure, but in a much more stable way.
00:33:09.040
So when we think about mental, mental health, mental health in and of itself is, is somewhat
00:33:15.440
It was trying to borrow from in the, in the first decade of the 20th century, it was attempting
00:33:20.340
to borrow from the medical model and in advancement of hygiene and the things we were learning about
00:33:28.300
And a guy named Clifford Beers, um, sort of in reaction to the psychiatric barbarism that
00:33:34.100
was, that was, uh, discovered in the first part of the 20th century.
00:33:40.400
He says, well, I think we should live in a way that we, we have certain environmental, uh,
00:33:45.800
ways that, that help us to stay clean in our mind.
00:33:48.460
And, and that's really the, the secular perspective, um, as we've moved mental health forward, uh,
00:33:55.940
And so notice what happens if, if you're depressed, for example, um, and we call that a disease
00:34:03.020
and that is what makes you mentally, um, unhealthy, then what we're attacking is the symptom, right?
00:34:10.780
And we say anything that makes you feel that way is the problem.
00:34:14.800
And what we've done is we've taken symptoms and made symptoms, the problem.
00:34:21.580
And what, what happens is then we say anybody who, who experiences any level of sadness or
00:34:31.440
Uh, and what we've done is we've just removed ourselves from, uh, what genuine human experience
00:34:37.360
really looks like in, in a world post Genesis three of loss and death and grief and difficulty
00:34:44.560
And so we're losing reality from God's perspective.
00:34:47.680
So, uh, what, what they're proposing, it sounds good, but it's, it's a completely different
00:34:53.260
So the way I categorize this is to say in Christian, in the Christian worldview, we have a view of
00:34:58.740
And his name is Jesus and how we are to live life as a human being in relation to the father.
00:35:04.440
And so it's important that we understand that, that Jesus did everything that Adam could not
00:35:09.400
do, everything that you can't do, everything I couldn't do in how normal humanity should
00:35:14.680
live in relation to God for the good of others and for the glory of the father.
00:35:21.740
And I think then we can see, okay, what does it look like to live healthy, both emotionally,
00:35:27.180
mentally in our mind, how we renew our mind, how we think in our mind, how we, um, forego the
00:35:32.980
corruption in our mind, uh, you know, all those things are critical when we think about
00:35:37.380
what it means to, to walk healthy, to live healthy.
00:35:41.500
It doesn't mean that we are abstaining from suffering because Jesus tells us in this world,
00:35:48.800
The whole mental health pursuit, um, it really is a fool's errand in part because what they're
00:35:54.680
chasing after, uh, they will never be able to get rid of ever.
00:35:59.800
They can never assuage everything that can corrupt our mental health.
00:36:04.480
Um, from, from God's perspective, though, he acknowledges that troubles in the world,
00:36:10.440
Even when the trouble is there, we can still walk stable.
00:36:13.000
James one, we can still walk faithful with the Lord, even through difficulty and trouble.
00:36:19.720
And that's something that the secular world can't really offer.
00:36:23.220
That's so true that mentally being mentally healthy or mental health is usually described,
00:36:29.720
whether deliberately or not as absence of bad feelings and certainly the absence of
00:36:37.180
But even if you just read the Psalms, we see that David persistently had bad feelings.
00:36:44.620
And I've even heard some people analyze that as he suffered from some kind of depression and
00:36:50.360
anxiety disorder, but that is doing, you know, what we do today with the, which is pathologizing
00:37:00.680
And I especially worry about this for adolescents and for teens, um, who are inundated with this kind
00:37:09.380
of content, particularly on social media and who live in a world where antidepressant medication
00:37:16.800
It is downright glorified, not just normalized or destigmatized where I would say there's even
00:37:25.320
There's a whole segment of TikTok where these young people are talking about all the
00:37:30.580
different anti-anxiety and anti-depression medications that they're taking.
00:37:34.340
Parents think they're doing the right thing because of this like therapeutic gospel and
00:37:38.880
just the pervasiveness of trust the experts, trust the experts.
00:37:43.040
If your kid is having a hard time, if they're sad, if they're insecure, if they're acting out,
00:37:49.800
I mean, we don't even have time to talk about like all the consequences and the road that that
00:37:54.400
can often, not always, but can often lead down, um, for kids.
00:37:58.900
But have you seen that in this rise of, um, uh, this phenomenon of, I don't know how to describe
00:38:08.340
it without using like the term mental health, but mentally unwell or children feeling that
00:38:16.400
And if you have seen that, like how do parents deal with it?
00:38:21.300
So I, I, I'm glad you brought parents up because let me just say at the outset, I think what
00:38:25.580
we're seeing unfold is that, uh, mental health, um, practitioners really become the experts
00:38:32.380
and they're, they're the ones who are then given status of, you know, the, the professional,
00:38:37.220
uh, the expert who, who makes declarations about particular things.
00:38:41.340
And the losers in all of this become the parents, because what you start to see happen is, you
00:38:46.000
know, parents who live with their kids every day really don't know their kids as well as
00:38:52.380
And, and which I think is, is Gnosticism, uh, played out in full spectrum.
00:38:57.300
So, um, so I think that that's initially a danger.
00:39:00.000
Now, let me speak specifically to, uh, the question about adolescence and how we see that
00:39:05.080
I don't think we should, um, we should think that that's strange.
00:39:09.000
I, I didn't say, I don't think it's good or that I think it's good.
00:39:14.960
If you understand the history of psychology, and I think Carl Truman, uh, did a really good
00:39:19.480
job in, in his cultural appraisal, um, as he describes the, the, um, the effects of Freudian
00:39:26.860
thought, uh, really on our modern therapeutic culture and how we, we take feelings and we take
00:39:36.800
Let me, let me explain something before I get into this, cause I think this part will
00:39:40.820
Let's take, let's take depression from the DSM, for example.
00:39:44.320
So in, in, in the criteria of the DSM, there are nine categories of criteria for depression.
00:39:50.640
They describe normal functional problems when somebody has depressive feelings.
00:40:01.800
Maybe they have suicidal ideation, those types of things.
00:40:04.300
I'll often ask my students when a person is depressed, what are the things that they believe
00:40:10.540
And they'll say, well, you know, they think maybe they're better off dead.
00:40:13.800
They think other people think that that's true.
00:40:15.820
They, they, you know, some event happened in their life.
00:40:19.240
And I say, okay, if that's what they believe to be true, um, what's broken with the way
00:40:25.180
we describe what's broken in our cultures, we say, well, um, they shouldn't be feeling
00:40:32.000
But the question that I want to ask is, um, if that's true, okay.
00:40:36.960
If, if, if I believe that I should die, that I'm better off dead, that I'm worthless, what's
00:40:42.360
the, what's a proper emotional response to that belief?
00:40:45.700
If that's really true, actually, it's not your emotions that are broken.
00:40:49.140
Your emotions are responding quite properly to what you believe to be true.
00:40:53.920
And so we're attacking the symptom of, of emotions or feelings saying that that's, what's broken
00:41:01.180
instead of the issue of, of what's true and right, which is that I'm believing things that
00:41:06.200
are false according to, you know, us being made in, in, in, to God's image and have intrinsic
00:41:11.040
value and all the rest of it related to the image of God.
00:41:13.840
So we can see even that narrative starts to build what we have, what we see in our teenagers.
00:41:18.760
So what they're doing is they're describing themselves based on the way that they feel.
00:41:23.560
And it's become in vogue now to expect that, you know, we're, we're all born with some
00:41:28.640
form of inherited taints and expresses itself in different ways.
00:41:31.900
And then it becomes glorified, uh, almost a competition of, you know, who has the most
00:41:37.660
therapist or who has, you know, the different types of medication and, and, and that sort of
00:41:42.560
But it, that, that happens when we build feelings and emotions as that, which sets or creates our
00:41:52.720
And this is a secular culture trying to grasp at explaining who man is and what gives us
00:42:01.420
And as we see in the scriptures, when we pursue that from a, uh, you know, as Solomon would
00:42:06.300
say below the sun or from an earthly perspective, it shouldn't surprise us that where we land
00:42:14.680
And that's what we see being promoted on places like tick tock.
00:42:21.220
Our culture sociologically is futility and vanity.
00:42:25.420
And the Bible told that story already that when we pursue these things, this is the end
00:42:30.760
Um, but in, in our human disposition, we have a hard time seeing it because it took, you
00:42:37.240
Uh, but these ideas have consequences and we're, we're picking the fruit now of these ideological,
00:42:43.260
uh, views that have, that have, uh, been growing from seed form for over a hundred years.
00:43:04.460
What is your thought about, um, social emotional learning curriculum that's in schools to supposedly
00:43:13.940
try to deal with this problem of, um, kids being mentally unhealthy.
00:43:20.540
It's the idea that kids really need to learn to have empathy for themselves and others.
00:43:27.320
And once they do that, then they will be able to process their emotions better and we'll all
00:43:33.400
live in a much more peaceful and a more just, um, society.
00:43:40.120
Uh, I don't, I don't think it's a healthy pursuit for sure.
00:43:44.620
And I like, um, social emotional learning, basically if you were to take, um, several
00:43:50.340
ideas and, and sort of create a recipe, if you will, um, somebody like Dewey in his sociological
00:43:56.540
learning theory, um, if you take somebody like Carl Rogers in his non-authoritarian approach
00:44:02.300
to education, which we see flourish in the sixties and seventies, um, we see all that sort of mixed
00:44:08.040
in a blender and, and, uh, along with Freud's psychotherapeutic approach to human problems
00:44:13.420
that these things come from early, uh, experiences in childhood that, that create then, uh, a very
00:44:19.740
sensitive, uh, human being that, that anything in the environment can trigger who we are and
00:44:24.880
So you take that as a recipe, you, you blend it up and, and outcome something like social
00:44:30.700
Now people will, um, hear something like that and say, oh man, this is a, this is really helpful
00:44:36.000
because it's, it's really focusing on the kids and trying to, to catch, you know, triggers
00:44:42.600
Well, I appreciate that people are trying to, you know, deal with children in, in how they
00:44:48.800
But, but what we can't miss is that these things are not idea free.
00:44:55.820
Uh, they come with a price and the price that they bring is that futility that I described.
00:45:00.860
So what's happening is effectively we're placing a lot of pressure on teachers.
00:45:05.600
Um, to do the, the diagnosing, or I've had several, several, uh, moms come to me and
00:45:14.600
And they've told me that if I don't go see a psychiatrist that they can't be let back
00:45:19.640
This is a small little, uh, example, but I'm like, okay, tell me about that process.
00:45:27.380
You mean the psychiatrist didn't, didn't, uh, diagnose you?
00:45:31.140
That, that the teacher said, if I don't go see a psychiatrist that I can't, I can't
00:45:37.840
So what you're seeing on the front end is that, um, you know, their teachers are being
00:45:42.240
trained and they're saying that this is the best thing to keep all the other kids really
00:45:47.000
Um, but what we're doing, okay, if I were to boil this down in a nutshell, what we're
00:45:50.500
doing is we're saying that children get meaning, value, and purpose in their sociological
00:45:55.660
Now I want you to pay attention to what's happening here.
00:45:58.120
What's happening here is we are measuring ourself by the environment that we find ourself
00:46:03.640
And that if an environment itself is not pleasing, then we can't flourish.
00:46:08.300
What that does is it describes that we as human beings are at the mercy of the environment
00:46:14.900
Nothing could be more antithetical to the truth of the gospel of Christ.
00:46:19.340
The Bible doesn't put us at the mercy of our environmental circumstances.
00:46:23.220
The Bible puts us at the mercy of Christ and that no matter what we can flourish, no matter
00:46:29.580
So this is building really in positive language, uh, a setting to where, you know, we as people
00:46:35.600
in our value and, and, uh, the way we measure our purpose is based on the environment that
00:46:40.540
we find ourself around and what the key to happiness or hope is in life is, is finding
00:46:46.220
ourself insulated in a, in a proper environment.
00:46:48.700
We don't have the power as human beings to do that.
00:46:51.620
I mean, uh, we don't have the power to insulate ourself enough from the destruction of a cursed
00:46:57.600
Uh, and so that's a futile pursuit that we're setting our children up for failure.
00:47:01.900
Um, thinking that if they can get in touch with self-awareness and their own feelings,
00:47:06.360
then they'll understand themselves better and they'll be able to thrive and flourish in
00:47:11.940
And it's setting our children up, uh, for failure because now you, you add in the, the,
00:47:17.120
to the recipe, social media, and we've even, we're even seeing at Congress, the, the bickering
00:47:21.880
back and forth about the influence of social media on the mental health of our, our young
00:47:27.200
And now this is, this is something that's starting in social, uh, learning, you know, very
00:47:32.760
early on in our elementary schools, moving all the way up where we're taught that that's
00:47:42.640
It is that there is some kind of higher special knowing that you have access to.
00:47:47.000
If you take this journey deep into your heart, you can, this key of SEL can like open up
00:47:52.160
your heart and all of this wisdom will come out and finally it'll be this full, complete
00:47:57.480
Which by the way, is what the author of many of these kinds of personality tests, like Carl
00:48:05.540
Um, well, we don't have that much more time and this is kind of a, this kind of a big question,
00:48:10.320
but I'm curious, what is your thought about empathy?
00:48:25.040
If you are empathetic, then you will draw this XYZ conclusion.
00:48:29.660
If you are empathetic, then you will finally be virtuous.
00:48:37.460
What is your thought about this heavy emphasis on empathy that seems to be more prevalent
00:48:49.160
And some of this is a question regarding semantics and how we think about this term,
00:48:53.940
empathy, empathy, empathy historically was not a terrible term.
00:49:00.300
It was trying to identify with the suffering of someone else, even the idea of coming alongside
00:49:04.920
someone and, and, and helping them through their difficulty and suffering.
00:49:09.100
The form that it's taken today and the way it's used is, is in terms of, um, I'll add a,
00:49:17.760
Um, which means that then I have to give my unconditional regard for someone else.
00:49:22.440
And this gets back to that environmental perspective I was describing that if I can't
00:49:26.600
be empathetic and identify with someone, well, first of all, cause I haven't had that experience.
00:49:30.980
I can't speak into their life or really bear a burden genuinely with them cause I don't
00:49:37.240
The second problem with that idea of unconditional empathy is it really, uh, creates an environment
00:49:43.840
where if a person is not affirmed at everything that they do, then it becomes an unhealthy
00:49:52.400
Uh, biblically, we can't live like that, right?
00:49:55.000
The Bible tells us to, to be sympathetic, uh, toward those who are broken, those who are
00:50:02.340
We see Jesus doing this in, in the, in the, in the gospels in the new Testament.
00:50:06.460
We see his followers are taught to care for those James 1, 27, uh, orphans and widows,
00:50:13.220
those who are downtrodden and, and, and that sort of thing, but it's never to leave them
00:50:18.500
It's never to, to help them remain into the mess that they, they find themselves in.
00:50:23.640
How do we, how do we help to get them out according to God's ways, give them genuine,
00:50:28.780
And so for us as Christians, we can't be empathetic endlessly or unconditionally.
00:50:34.460
There's a time where, you know, if someone's sitting across from me and I'm seeing that they're
00:50:38.560
making decisions that are sinful decisions, it's, that's, uh, leading to their self-destruction.
00:50:43.820
Um, it's actually unloving for me to leave them on that path of self-destruction and not
00:50:50.860
So there comes a point in time where we have to offer sympathetic disagreement.
00:50:54.640
And we, as Ephesians 4, 15 would describe it, speak the truth in love to someone.
00:51:00.380
But this is, you know, the, the culture that we're in right now, we're, we're creating where
00:51:05.620
free speech is, is going to be questioned and it's going to be described as being hate
00:51:09.860
speech, especially if we were to, to warn someone against their own folly.
00:51:14.260
You take the, the transgender movement that's happening right now, right?
00:51:17.420
If you, if you're not empathetic and identify with their gender fluidity and transition, then
00:51:22.280
you become the one that's actually contributing to, uh, the detriment of their mental health.
00:51:27.900
Um, that's what empathy in the modern sense is creating.
00:51:32.000
Uh, it's creating sort of a bubble around people that you become the bad guy, or you
00:51:37.860
become the, the evil one, or you become the, the hateful person.
00:51:42.400
Um, if you genuinely speak truth to people in, in, in love and in grace, cause we can speak
00:51:48.680
We shouldn't speak truth wrongly, uh, but speaking the truth and love to people.
00:51:52.100
And so it really disregards this idea of, of there's a time where we, we, uh,
00:51:57.760
warn people, we speak the truth in, in, in a healthy way.
00:52:01.200
Um, and so I think empathy in its current sense and it's unconditional regard, uh, that
00:52:06.500
we see now is, is something that is harmful, even very dangerous.
00:52:10.400
And I hope people don't hear me say we ought not to be sympathetic or empathetic with people.
00:52:17.520
What I'm saying is the way it's used now in terms of, uh, an unconditional approach where,
00:52:23.000
uh, we're just intended to be, um, accepting and that acceptance is the means to help.
00:52:29.640
And I think that's unchristian and very dangerous culture.
00:52:34.560
Well, you've given us a lot to chew on and a lot of great wisdom.
00:52:38.220
Your scripture recall is incredible and just, it's a gift.
00:52:42.800
I'm sure it's a gift to everyone you speak to on a daily basis.
00:52:47.620
Uh, from time to time, I ask the right guests to end the conversation by sharing the gospel.
00:52:55.480
So if someone were to ask you, Dr. Johnson, what is the gospel?
00:53:03.120
I think the gospel is that God created us as human beings.
00:53:07.820
He created us with meaning, purpose, and value.
00:53:10.880
But the Bible describes very clearly that we have missed the mark.
00:53:16.640
Um, and we see that evidentially by the way in which we live, that we choose to live for
00:53:22.520
ourself more than we choose to live for anything else.
00:53:26.960
And in missing that mark, the Bible says that we owe God a great debt, that, that we will
00:53:33.980
If we remain in our sin, that, that sin, uh, we have a payment that we are, we, we, that
00:53:43.600
And, uh, if we don't, if we can't make that payment, there's nothing within us that says
00:53:48.440
we can pay an eternal debt that we owe to an eternal God.
00:53:52.640
Uh, and so we are helpless and hopeless in and of ourselves.
00:53:55.900
But the Bible tells us that there's good news and everybody knows that what I just described
00:54:03.260
When we live in life, we know that when we try to muddle about with our own strength,
00:54:13.800
And that's the testimony of scripture about our, ourselves and our pursuit.
00:54:17.400
But the beauty is that God was telling a story from the very beginning when man, man fell,
00:54:23.540
uh, God was, he, he was enacting a redemptive story.
00:54:28.380
And the centerpiece of that story is his son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
00:54:31.640
And we see Jesus who comes in the form of a baby, the most, uh, humble.
00:54:36.240
He's identifying with us as being born in the flesh, living among us.
00:54:41.480
Uh, and he lived, the Bible says a perfect life, which means he was obedient fully.
00:54:45.840
This is important because he was born of a virgin.
00:54:48.900
So he didn't inherit our own sin, uh, in humanity.
00:54:56.500
Yet he willingly, the Bible says he gave himself up for us to ransom us, uh, to himself.
00:55:06.660
And the Bible describes that he, he died for, he lived for a righteous life.
00:55:12.300
He was buried three days, uh, based on the acceptance of God, of Jesus's sacrifice.
00:55:18.840
And now, uh, we have the opportunity to respond in repentance and faith.
00:55:25.200
And that's the call for us when we see our emptiness and our brokenness and the Lord brings
00:55:31.280
And we see that we call upon Jesus as the only one who can, uh, pay the debt of our sin.
00:55:37.560
Uh, and then we, we can walk faithfully with the Lord forever.
00:55:41.080
And, and that word is really important of what happens that he forgives our sin.
00:55:46.360
He counts us as righteous before God, no longer holding that sin against us.
00:55:51.080
So that, that, that way no longer do we have the wrath of God placed on us, but we can walk
00:55:57.460
And one of the most important passages, and I'll read it because it's that clear Romans chapter
00:56:03.180
five, verse one, uh, sorry for the, the sound of pages turning, but it's good for people
00:56:10.600
And this is the summation of it, uh, Romans five, one, therefore, since we have been justified
00:56:16.560
by faith, that we have faith in the work that Christ has done for us, nothing we can do to
00:56:24.560
We, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
00:56:27.880
That's the gospel is that we have faith in the work and the person, the life, death, burial
00:56:33.780
and resurrection of Jesus, uh, and that he forgives our sin.
00:56:40.320
He offered himself as a sacrifice to the Lord and he washes our sin clean.
00:56:49.420
And I'm just telling you as someone who's walked that since I was 11, seeing the beauty
00:56:54.200
of what God has done for me in the Lord Jesus, uh, there's nothing that's more satisfying.
00:57:00.580
There's nothing that, that satisfies my soul more through the turmoil and difficulties of
00:57:08.980
And that's made possible through, through Jesus.
00:57:13.240
Well, thank you so much, Dr. Johnson, and thanks for taking the time to come on.
00:57:19.340
Um, and where can people connect with you or find you?
00:57:24.200
Um, yeah, so, uh, I'm a faculty member at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.
00:57:31.280
And then at, um, ACBC, the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors.
00:57:37.880
I also lead a podcast called the Truth and Love Podcast.
00:57:47.320
I really appreciate you taking the time to come on.