Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - REPLAY： DEBATE： Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice Christian ｜ Guest： Brandan Robertson

00:00:00.840 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Thursday. This episode is brought to you by our friends

00:00:05.160 at Good Ranchers. American meat delivered right to your front door. Go to goodranchers.com

00:00:09.000 slash Allie. That's goodranchers.com slash Allie. All right, guys, I've got an episode

00:00:23.820 for you today, a fiery episode. I just recorded an interview, a debate with Brandon J. Robertson.

00:00:30.580 He is a progressive. He calls himself a progressive Christian, a pastor of Metanoia Church. He calls

00:00:36.620 himself a public theologian. Now, you might know his name and you might know his face and voice if

00:00:42.340 you listen to this podcast or if you watch some of my videos on Instagram because I have reacted to

00:00:48.020 a previous video that he did saying that Lazarus coming out of the tomb was Jesus calling gay

00:00:53.800 people to come out of the closet. And so that's who we're talking to today. He is pro-choice.

00:01:00.860 And so we are debating abortion. Now, I would call that pro-abortion. He refers to himself

00:01:06.600 as pro-choice. And so we had a very, you guys know how passionate I am about this subject. And so it

00:01:12.360 did get very intense at times. But I am very appreciative of Brandon being willing to come on

00:01:18.260 because most people that we ask, that conservative shows in general, ask to debate, especially

00:01:23.780 the subject, say no. He was very respectful. So guys, if you disagree with him, especially

00:01:28.980 on YouTube, please leave respectful comments. There should be absolutely no ad hominem attacks.

00:01:35.220 Be as respectful in your disagreement and your dialogue as possible. That's what we're looking

00:01:41.140 for. We can be very passionate. You will hear in this conversation. I get extremely riled up about

00:01:46.400 the arguments that were being made. And that's fine. That's fine. But we should resist any kind

00:01:52.800 of personal attacks because it's good that we have this kind of dialogue. Before we get into the

00:01:57.800 conversation, I just want to address that a lot of you guys have been sending me messages over the past

00:02:02.900 few days just with the ridiculous posts that your friends are sharing that you didn't even realize that

00:02:08.060 your friends were pro-choice. You didn't realize that they supported abortion and the legal right to

00:02:12.160 abortion. And they have been posting about women's rights and how scary this is and how terrible this 0.54

00:02:17.940 is over the past few days. And you have asked me several times to respond to the popular post that you

00:02:25.300 are seeing circulated by Brene Brown, by Glennon Doyle, by several other even professing Christian

00:02:31.600 influencers. Or you have pointed out that a lot of your favorite female Christian influencers who are

00:02:38.280 so quick to talk about social justice or police brutality, even alleged police brutality or what's

00:02:44.560 happening at the border have nothing to say about abortion, even though they call themselves pro-life.

00:02:49.780 And unfortunately, I have not been able to respond to every single argument out there, every single

00:02:54.720 post that you guys have sent me and every single message over the past few days. This reminds me a lot

00:02:59.360 of June of 2020, when a lot of your friends were posting things about race and police and social

00:03:06.180 justice that were simply not backed up either by biblical theology or by facts and data. And you guys

00:03:13.920 were just asking me for help for arguments for clarity and insanity, because it kind of can feel like

00:03:20.040 we're just going crazy when it feels like we are in the minority. I just want to encourage you guys with

00:03:25.660 a few things. And I posted this on Instagram, I'll say it again here. In every conversation that you have

00:03:31.040 with someone, what you can do if you don't know what to say, if you've never heard that argument

00:03:35.540 before, just bring it back to the baby, bring it back to what an abortion is. Every story that you

00:03:42.200 hear, every anecdote that you're offered, every argument, however nuanced and complex it is, bring

00:03:48.180 it back to, but why is that a justification for killing a human being? Now, what you will often hear,

00:03:54.760 and you'll hear that, I don't want to give too much away, but you'll hear a lot of this conversation

00:03:58.540 in today's discussion. What is a human? When does life begin? And look, science says conception. And so

00:04:06.320 the question is, when does someone get rights? And if it's any time after conception, it becomes

00:04:13.360 arbitrary, right? And arbitrary assignment of rights to certain groups of people based on the whims and

00:04:22.940 desires of people in power have been the mark of every human rights atrocity from slavery to genocide

00:04:29.560 for all of history. And so just go back to the baby, go back to this innocent human life that is being

00:04:35.940 victimized, go back to what the abortion procedure entails, which we have discussed so much. I will link some

00:04:42.800 of my most popular abortion episodes in the description of this show. I've done, we've done so many, so many.

00:04:51.140 So you can just look up relatable abortion wherever you listen to your podcast or on YouTube. They will

00:04:56.820 all come up. We have addressed pretty much every argument under the sun when it comes to abortion.

00:05:02.340 And the second thing that I want to say for all of you who are dealing with these conversations and

00:05:08.100 dialogue and debates and just anger, maybe from some of your friends or family members who are on the

00:05:12.840 other side of this, I just want to encourage you that you're doing a good job. I have gotten so many

00:05:17.640 messages saying, you know, because you listen to a relatable podcast or because we've talked about

00:05:24.940 this so much, or maybe you've listened to other pro-life advocates for a long time, you have felt

00:05:30.140 the courage in a lot of cases for the first time to speak up on behalf of unborn children, to speak up

00:05:37.800 on behalf of this vulnerable class of people. And I just want to commend you for your courage.

00:05:43.580 I just want to commend you for your boldness. And I want to tell you that even if the person's mind

00:05:48.840 didn't change who you messaged, who you talked to, who you texted with, that does not negate the

00:05:54.820 significance of your obedience. All right? That does not negate or minimize in any way the significance

00:06:00.920 of your obedience. You have no idea what seed that you have planted. You have no idea what God is going

00:06:06.520 to do with that conversation. You have no idea what other conversations that person is having,

00:06:10.760 how God is working in their heart and their mind. I mean, think about all of us and the different

00:06:15.660 ways that we have changed our minds on theological or moral things since we became a Christian. Like

00:06:20.920 there are probably some faulty things that all of us believed a few years ago that we no longer

00:06:25.060 believe. And it was a process. It was because of conversations. It was because of things we read.

00:06:29.860 It was because of God working on our hearts. So understand that when you're having the conversations,

00:06:34.640 the arguments that you're having, that your job is to be obedient. Your job is to say what is true.

00:06:41.640 Your job is to speak the truth in love about what abortion is. And God is sovereign over that person.

00:06:48.100 Like God is in charge of changing that person's heart and mind. Ultimately, you are just playing a

00:06:53.640 role. Your job is to be obedient. Your job is to be clear. Your job is to be courageous. Your job is to

00:06:59.920 speak up for the person that is completely forgotten when it comes to pro-abortion arguments. And that

00:07:04.580 is the child that is being victimized, killed, slaughtered, dismembered because of abortion.

00:07:10.200 If the church cannot stand up for this, if this is not an issue that the church can care about that

00:07:16.300 we can't be clear on, then we have completely dropped the ball. Because as we've talked about

00:07:20.560 since the inception of Christianity, we have been a refuge for the most vulnerable, namely children,

00:07:26.300 who have in a million different ways been victims of child sacrifice and exploitation almost since the

00:07:33.860 beginning of human history. The church has to stand against that, including abortion. This is 0.91

00:07:39.160 a biblical issue. This is a Genesis 1 issue that we are made in his image. As R.C. Sproul has said,

00:07:48.320 and I've said many times, if he knows anything about God, it's that God hates abortion. And let me just

00:07:53.040 say, before we get into the conversation, I always want to reiterate this. When I talk about just the

00:07:57.700 wickedness and brutality of abortion, I just want to tell you that if you have had an abortion,

00:08:04.600 if you are thinking about an abortion right now, don't do this alone. I know it might feel lonely.

00:08:10.640 You feel like your shame is crushing you, your fear, your anxiety, whatever, your guilt that is just

00:08:17.120 tearing you apart on the inside because you're thinking about this or have already done this.

00:08:21.540 Listen, you are no worse than any other sinner on earth. All right. You are no less of a candidate 1.00

00:08:30.220 for God's grace and forgiveness and mercy and compassion than anyone else. Ephesians 2 says,

00:08:36.020 we are all dead in sin apart from Christ. There are not different levels of dead. We are all dead

00:08:41.620 in sin apart from Christ. If you have had an abortion and it is a secret that has been weighing on your

00:08:47.420 heart, you need to go to a pro-life pregnancy center. You need to go to someone within your

00:08:52.220 church. You need to go to a trusted Christian friend and tell them, bring that to light. Let

00:08:58.540 God heal you. Let God show you how good he is, how much he loves you, that he sent his son to die for

00:09:05.160 that sin, to cover it up, to pay every single debt that we have, every single sin that we have

00:09:10.320 committed. There is no sin too big, too secret, too dark, too grave that God cannot forgive,

00:09:17.020 that Jesus's blood does not cover. There is hope for you and God can use your testimony, your life

00:09:24.000 as a testament to his grace and to help people and to show people who he is, what he's done for you,

00:09:32.120 and to save the lives of other unborn children and to help women who are considering the same

00:09:36.440 thing that you have done. And if you are a woman who is pregnant, you don't know how you're going to 1.00

00:09:40.380 do it. Maybe you're considering an abortion. There are people to help you. I want you to go to your

00:09:46.120 local pro-life pregnancy center. You can look up pregnancy resource center in your area. I'll try

00:09:50.640 to find a link that shows where these pregnancy resource centers exist. Message me if you can. I

00:09:57.940 pray to God that I will see it and I will connect you to the right people. That would not be the first

00:10:02.740 time that that has happened behind the scenes. There will be no shame or judgment in our conversation.

00:10:08.280 I just want you to know that you are not alone. You are not alone and there are options for you

00:10:14.880 and we will help you however we can. And so I just want to make sure that we have that. And look,

00:10:23.740 if you are someone who is pro-choice or you are someone who considers yourself pro-abortion or maybe

00:10:28.720 personally pro-life or politically pro-abortion, I hope that you will go back and listen to some

00:10:36.200 abortion episodes that we've had or some of the conversation that we're about to have today and

00:10:40.540 that you would reconsider your position. And remember that these are people made in the image

00:10:44.600 of God that we're talking about and we're talking about legally murdering them. This is a matter of

00:10:48.720 life and death and there's not really a question of which side Christians should be on. Of course, 1.00

00:10:53.860 my guest today, he disagrees and we will get into that fiery disagreement in a second,

00:10:58.980 but I just kind of wanted to give some context and a precursor for all of that.

00:11:06.200 Brandon, thank you so much for joining us. And like I said, before the camera started rolling for

00:11:12.060 being willing to dialogue across the aisle about this important subject. So first,

00:11:17.280 I'm just going to open it up to you. If you could just briefly kind of summarize why you consider

00:11:21.920 yourself pro-choice, why you believe that abortion should be a legal option for women.

00:11:29.580 Yeah, I think abortion is a morally complex issue. And one thing that I always have said about

00:11:34.340 abortion is that I don't know any progressive person that wants to see abortion increased.

00:11:38.980 We all want to see it decreased. I think the question is about how we do that. And so I believe

00:11:44.520 that there are many instances in which women should have the right to access abortion care. There are

00:11:48.720 many instances, both from a faith perspective historically and from modern scientific perspective,

00:11:54.760 when about why women should have access to abortions. And so I think overturning Roe v. Wade

00:12:00.520 is an attempt to completely ban abortion in many states across this country. And that's a net negative

00:12:07.940 that results in, we know statistically, women doing harm to themselves because they can't access 1.00

00:12:15.940 healthy abortions. You can't ban legal abortion or you can't ban abortion. You can only ban legal 0.52

00:12:20.900 abortions. And so my whole point is I want to see abortions made available. And then through

00:12:27.700 comprehensive sex education, through contraception, through other means, we can work on reducing

00:12:32.920 abortions together. But I think overturning Roe v. Wade and banning abortion altogether

00:12:36.640 is just not an effective way to deal with this issue.

00:12:40.060 Okay, so there's a lot in there that I want to address. First, I do think that it is incorrect to

00:12:45.120 say that there is no one on the progressive side that believes that abortion is good. There was an

00:12:52.040 article, a kind of infamous article, at least from my perspective, in New York Magazine,

00:12:56.120 which is a very mainstream outlet in 2019 titled Abortion is a Moral Good. I've testified before

00:13:02.240 Congress and I heard the women next to me who consider themselves reproductive justice advocates 0.93

00:13:08.040 who talk about not just that abortion is a necessary evil, but that it is actually good for society.

00:13:14.320 It is good for women, especially economically. There's an organization called Shout Your Abortion, 1.00

00:13:19.520 which has been touted by people like Oprah, that is trying to de-stigmatize abortion. So yes,

00:13:25.000 there are many people on the progressive side that are not actually interested in reducing

00:13:29.020 abortion. This whole trope of safe, legal and rare, it might have been something that was popular in

00:13:33.760 the Democratic Party 10, 15 years ago, even by the current president of the United States.

00:13:38.980 That is not the current mission or the platform or the idea that is predominantly

00:13:44.800 perpetuated on the left side. It is that abortion should be accessible without apology for any reason 0.99

00:13:52.540 through nine months and subsidized by the taxpayer. So let's start there. That is the current position

00:13:58.700 of the Democratic Party, that abortion is not evil, that it doesn't necessarily need to be reduced,

00:14:03.780 but that it just needs to be accessed and even free.

00:14:07.760 So I disagree. I think that what I think there are definitely extremes on both sides. I think there

00:14:13.040 are extreme pro-life and pro-choice people that I, as a Christian minister, would disagree with.

00:14:17.520 However, I do think the vast majority of Americans, the 70 percent that support the right to access

00:14:22.800 abortion, want to see abortions decreased through these other means that I've named and that Democrats 0.61

00:14:28.360 and progressives have been naming for many years. And I do think, yeah, you're right. Sure,

00:14:32.920 there are people on the extremes who want to just say abortions for everyone up to nine months.

00:14:38.400 I think that is a minority position. And I don't think you could find in the Democratic platform where

00:14:43.200 that would be explicitly endorsed by any mainstream Democratic Party platform.

00:14:48.760 I actually think it would be very different or it'd be very difficult to find a mainstream Democrat

00:14:53.160 who today would say, here's what I believe should be the limit on abortion. Really, what you hear

00:14:59.800 is that, well, it should just be a choice. I mean, this is the legislation that we're seeing in California,

00:15:04.020 that we're seeing in New Jersey, that we're seeing in Maryland. We are actually seeing the

00:15:07.780 decriminalization of fatal negligence of babies even after they're born and if they survive an abortion.

00:15:14.880 I mean, you saw the Born Alive Survivors Act that Republicans in the Senate tried to pass a couple

00:15:21.540 years ago and no Democrats voted yes on it. This was simply saying that doctors should be required

00:15:27.100 to provide life-saving care to babies who survived an abortion. OK, so that's not even limiting an abortion.

00:15:33.260 No Democrat voted yes on that. So it is a mainstream extremist position on the left.

00:15:39.180 I'm not saying you represent it, but it is a mainstream position on the left that there should

00:15:43.400 be absolutely no limits to abortion. So I just think that you're wrong, that no progressives think

00:15:48.540 that there should be, you know, no limits to abortion. That is the mainstream position today.

00:15:54.360 I didn't say no progressives. And of course, I'm not saying no progressives. I say, by and large,

00:15:57.600 most progressives that I know of would say that about 20 weeks is the general limit on when we

00:16:03.440 would talk about when an abortion can take place. And that's based on viability. That's based on what 0.93

00:16:09.480 we know scientifically, viability of the fetus to be able to actually grow into a full-born baby.

00:16:14.960 OK, well, let's wait. I want to hear more about that because 24 weeks is viability. Babies as young

00:16:19.860 as 21 weeks have survived outside the womb. 24 weeks is actually viability where they have more than

00:16:25.640 a 50 percent chance to survive outside the womb. So let's hear a little bit more about your

00:16:29.440 reasoning. Why should abortion be allowed before 20 weeks, but not after? Well, simply because of

00:16:35.120 viability, simply because they're not viable at 20 weeks. No, exactly. So the moral question here

00:16:40.440 for me as a pastor is, when does life begin? And this is the question that Christians and people

00:16:45.560 of all faith have been debating for thousands of years. In different traditions, there are different

00:16:50.200 answers to this question. I think scientifically, we can say today up to 24 weeks is when a fetus

00:16:55.620 becomes viable. So I think that time frame between 20 to 24 weeks is the time that we

00:17:00.860 then can start talking about restrictions on abortion. I do think there are instances when

00:17:04.840 the mother's life is at risk that we have to talk more broadly about this. This is where

00:17:10.920 it gets morally complex. But I think abortion, like so many moral issues, we want to make this

00:17:16.140 just black and white. It either is completely legal for everyone or it's completely banned for

00:17:21.280 everyone. And I think these are highly individualized situations and it doesn't do good

00:17:25.660 for our polarization. It doesn't do good for the health of anyone in our country when we simply make

00:17:30.580 this black and white, in or out, good or bad, because it's not that simple.

00:17:35.440 So human beings, we become human beings technically, scientifically, at the moment of conception. That's

00:17:41.400 when we have our unique DNA. Now, listen, what you are arguing is, and a lot of people have argued it,

00:17:46.980 you're right. Different traditions say different things. The argument is not whether a person is a

00:17:52.260 human is a human at conception. We have everything that we need and just need time in order to develop

00:17:59.280 into a baby that is able to survive outside the womb. We are all human beings at conception. The

00:18:04.200 question is that you are bringing up is when does a human being become a person? When does a human being

00:18:11.100 get rights? That is really the debate that you are raising. There is no question in embryology or

00:18:16.400 biology when a human being is a human being. I mean, if you have ever seen a baby in a first

00:18:23.800 trimester sonogram, that's a baby. That is a baby. That's not just a blob. That is a baby with not

00:18:31.200 just a heart and a brain and ribs and lungs and fingers and toes moving and kicking and teeth that

00:18:36.820 you can see and lungs that are developing. I mean, you see a fully formed human being at just 10 weeks

00:18:43.680 gestation inside the womb. And so why? Why do you say that that clearly human being that we can see,

00:18:51.660 why is that not a human? Who decided that? Why all the sudden at 20 weeks gestation does that person

00:18:57.960 become a human? Like, when did that happen? And why do you have the authority to say that they're not

00:19:03.700 a human before that? I've never claimed to have any authority on this issue. I'm speaking for my

00:19:08.700 you do because you believe that people should be able to kill that human being before that. So why?

00:19:13.880 Because it's not a human being. I don't think any modern science would say that

00:19:19.260 just when a baby is conceived, that that is now a human being. That is a potential life. I will

00:19:24.500 give you that. It's alive. If it's not alive, then the woman isn't pregnant. Then the woman has had, 0.99

00:19:28.580 what happens in a miscarriage if that human being is not alive in the womb?

00:19:32.220 Viability is the standard by which we know a fetus can become a fully alive human being.

00:19:38.240 They are fully alive. I know that you've never been pregnant. I know that the left is confused

00:19:42.820 about whether men or women can actually carry a child, but that human being is alive. You can feel

00:19:47.900 that baby kicking at 16 weeks. You can see the baby in the sonogram moving and kicking around. They can

00:19:53.400 recognize their mother's voice before the time you say that they are an actual human being. Science does 0.63

00:19:59.060 tell us they're a human being. You are saying that some human beings don't have rights. That is what

00:20:03.680 modern science says. Yours is a superstitious philosophical position, not a scientific one.

00:20:09.120 Well, I am primarily a pastor and theologian. So yes, I'm going to talk from a theological and

00:20:13.160 philosophical perspective primarily. Okay. Give me the theological support for a baby all of a sudden

00:20:18.880 becoming a human at 20 weeks. The earliest Jewish tradition in the Hebrew Bible says that a person

00:20:24.360 doesn't become a person until first breath. Now, I reject that. But here's the thing. There is

00:20:28.680 ancient tradition. There is ancient religious tradition. We would even say there's ancient

00:20:31.640 Judeo-Christian tradition that has disagreed about when exactly life begins. And that is the complex

00:20:36.820 moral question. So I think it's important to go with what the science actually says. I've never read

00:20:42.460 any scientific report in all my studies of abortion over the past eight to 10 years that I've been

00:20:46.420 talking about this topic that says when a baby is conceived, that that is a human being. I don't think any

00:20:52.020 science. What else is it? Okay. Okay. Here. What else is it? If it's not a human being,

00:20:55.860 is it a summer squash? Is it a Tervis tumbler? No, but that doesn't actually exist. We're not

00:21:01.720 potential. We're not potential. That doesn't even make sense. Okay. Tell me then what happens in a

00:21:06.680 miscarriage. That's a potential human life that was ended. That's a horrible. A potential human life

00:21:12.720 that was ended. Do you not hear that that doesn't make any sense? A potential human life can't exist

00:21:17.040 because potential means it doesn't exist yet. Potential by definition means that it does not

00:21:21.960 exist yet. So a potential something cannot end. It has to exist for it to end. It has to live for

00:21:27.800 it to die. That's a completely illogical argument. Potential can be... Let's break it down. Let's

00:21:32.900 break it down. Tell me how something that does not exist ceases to exist. I didn't say it doesn't

00:21:38.440 exist. I said it has the potential to exist and you can stop the potential of that life from becoming

00:21:42.320 real. But it does exist or else it can't die. The potential ends, the potential for that fetus

00:21:49.820 to become a fully... So when a woman is pregnant, she's not actually pregnant with anything. When

00:21:53.740 she sees in the ultrasound at eight weeks that beating heart, that's a potential? Potential

00:21:58.920 what? A potential what? Potential human life. Then what is it at the time you can't... If you see

00:22:05.080 something, if something tangibly exists, this is not a potential... This is not a potential

00:22:09.980 microphone. This is an actual microphone. When you put a seed in the ground, is it a tree or is

00:22:15.080 it a potential tree? It is a potential tree. This is how growth... Listen, it's not just a seed. It's

00:22:19.720 not just a seed that we're talking about. We are talking about all of the cells, all of the cells

00:22:24.980 that are necessary to grow into a fully formed baby. But it is a human being at conception. You

00:22:32.240 simply believe that it is okay to kill certain human beings because they're not big enough yet.

00:22:36.920 That is the debate. There's no scientific debate about whether or not a human is a human at

00:22:41.660 conception. The whole debate is whether or not that human being has rights. And you believe

00:22:46.400 that some human beings don't have rights. That's what you believe.

00:22:50.900 But as a Christian, I think that what you're doing is unethical by jumping the gun and taking words 1.00

00:22:56.000 that I'm not saying and making the words that sound good to your audience. A potential human life is a

00:23:01.180 potential human life. I think scientifically, I stand with the majority of the science today. I'm very

00:23:06.320 confident in that. And again, I'm not... My primary objective is to simply say we want to see abortions 0.98

00:23:13.860 reduced. And the way we're going to do that is not by banning abortions. We can get into the

00:23:17.220 technical conversation, but it's a complex moral conversation that's been going on in our country

00:23:21.520 for a very long time. And there are not clear answers. I want to talk about what is the best

00:23:26.160 way to ensure that women stay healthy, to ensure that our country continues to move forward in a way

00:23:31.960 that protects everyone, including the least vulnerable. And I don't think that is through

00:23:35.720 banning and criminalizing abortion, which is what a number of these Republican states want to do if

00:23:41.200 Roe v. Wade is overturned. And that will... We know statistically that that will cause great harm to

00:23:47.520 women and that will cause great harm to many people across the country, disproportionately affecting 0.95

00:23:51.540 communities of color and communities that are already disadvantaged in our society.

00:23:56.540 Well, unfortunately, people of color are already disproportionately affected by abortion. In New

00:24:02.280 York City, several years in a row, more black babies were aborted than born. A highly disproportionate 0.90

00:24:08.980 number of black babies are aborted every year. And of course, that goes back to the history and the

00:24:13.060 origins of Planned Parenthood, which was started by a white supremacist eugenicist. It's carrying on that

00:24:18.020 legacy today by disproportionately killing unborn children. And so if you want to talk about harm,

00:24:23.760 from our perspective, if you want to talk about harm, if you want to talk about danger,

00:24:27.900 like we can talk about poisoning and dismembering and purposely start stopping the heartbeat of living

00:24:35.380 human beings while they are in the womb. And if you just want to focus on post-viability abortions,

00:24:42.380 unfortunately, that happens at least 10,000 times a year. These are brutal procedures. Really,

00:24:47.620 from conception onward, abortion is a brutal, violent procedure of human beings.

00:24:53.760 That are made in the image of God. So if you want to talk about danger, if you want to talk about

00:24:58.100 violence, if you want to talk about things that are harming, like let's talk about the abortion

00:25:03.240 procedure, which is killing people, which I just can't find in all of my study of scripture,

00:25:08.500 that the God who made us in our mother's womb fearfully and wonderfully and purposely with specificity,

00:25:15.980 that the Jesus who invited the children to come to him, that the God who says in Jeremiah 1,

00:25:21.420 that before he formed us in our womb, that he knew us. I cannot find anywhere in Leviticus when God calls

00:25:29.640 for the death penalty of the Israelites who were sacrificing their children to Molech. I cannot 0.98

00:25:34.760 find anywhere in scripture that that God who purposely creates us, who made us all in his image,

00:25:40.960 who hates the shedding of innocent blood. I cannot find anywhere in scripture that there would be any

00:25:46.620 justification for killing, for example, a 19 and a half week baby, but not a 20 week baby. That's

00:25:53.880 arbitrary. And it has been that arbitrary assignment of personhood and rights has been the logical

00:26:00.500 justification for every single dehumanization and genocide throughout history. There is nowhere

00:26:07.840 in scripture that would do anything but condemn it.

00:26:10.620 You're simply incorrect. Scientifically, we know up to the moment of viability,

00:26:15.040 that thing that you're calling a baby is not yet a baby. I fundamentally disagree.

00:26:18.360 It is a baby. It is a baby. You have never, maybe one day when there is a scientific development

00:26:24.340 to where you can carry a child and you look at the sonogram and you see that child inside of you,

00:26:30.700 there's no difference. There's no difference between a 19 and a half week baby and a 20 week baby.

00:26:35.480 That is a human being that has been kicking the walls of your uterus for several weeks at that 0.84

00:26:40.520 point. They don't suddenly become a baby. That is a superstitious, unscientific view that is not

00:26:46.760 backed by embryology or any biological knowledge of fetal development at all. You have given in

00:26:52.180 to a dogmatic, superstitious view of human life. It is arbitrary. Your view is arbitrary.

00:26:59.260 The leading organizations in our country like the CDC. Cite it for me. And with us. I can cite

00:27:07.240 things for you. We have, let me pull up. Up to 23 weeks, the CDC says that is when the moment of

00:27:15.420 viability is. Viability. Yes. Viability is not the same thing as humanity. And you just said that you

00:27:20.640 are for abortion only until 20 weeks. 20 weeks is a viability. So why? Because up to that point,

00:27:27.700 it is just a potential human life. Why? Why 20 weeks? Why 20 weeks? 20 weeks is not viability. So

00:27:33.000 why? The CDC says 23 weeks. Logically, that's when it becomes fully able to live outside. Not 20

00:27:40.060 weeks. Babies at 20 weeks cannot live outside the womb. So why are you saying that? Why are you saying?

00:27:45.320 Three weeks. I just quoted 23 weeks from the CDC. Earlier you said 20. So now we're a little bit more

00:27:51.860 radical. Okay. So now 23 weeks. Only when a baby can survive outside the womb. And so people who,

00:27:59.080 for example, outside of the womb, who are entirely dependent on a machine to live, who are not able

00:28:05.460 to survive without the help of other people, are those people, should we be able to legally murder 0.96

00:28:10.240 them too? I'm just trying to figure out your definition or your standard of what humanity is,

00:28:14.940 because you haven't been able to cite the science on it.

00:28:17.700 I have actually. You're bringing in external arguments to emotionalize this, which is the

00:28:21.640 problem with this entire debate. It's called logic and you haven't been able to support it.

00:28:25.480 The CDC says that viability starts at 23 weeks, not humanity. Tell me, cite the scientific literature

00:28:31.060 that says humanity starts at 23 weeks. Both extremes want to make this a hyper emotional

00:28:36.220 argument. I'm not willing to do that. I believe this is a complex moral issue. I'm going to continue

00:28:40.640 to stand with the millions of people, the majority of people in our country who believe that abortion

00:28:46.600 should be able to be accessed in order to protect both the health of the mother and a lot of these,

00:28:52.580 a lot of abortions are taking place, their general health practices. This is to be for the well-being

00:28:58.260 of the mother for people. The point is, I think the emotionalization of this argument is not helping us

00:29:07.120 in this country move forward in any way. I think if we overturn Roe versus Wade, I think we are going to 0.85

00:29:12.700 see drastically negative consequences. We're going to see not abortion end. We're going to see legal 0.94

00:29:18.140 abortion end. And that's going to result in people doing things that are going to harm themselves

00:29:22.120 and be very unhealthy for them because they're going to find alternative means to get access to

00:29:28.020 abortion. The way we decrease abortion is through increased sexual education, increased contraceptives,

00:29:33.860 increased women's health. That is what we need to do. We've seen that over the past decade. We've seen 1.00

00:29:39.180 abortions decrease under such policies. If we overturn Roe versus Wade, we can only expect that

00:29:44.000 that abortion numbers are actually going to increase, just not in the legal ways. And it's

00:29:48.900 going to put undue burden on women. This is not the best for our country. This is not the direction we 1.00

00:29:54.020 should be heading. And that's why I'm opposing this action, this potential draft opinion by Justice

00:30:00.500 Aligo. Okay, let me pause for a second because they're telling me two things. That one, your phone is

00:30:04.900 shaking or your tape, your tape, you might have like your hands on your table. So it might be shaking

00:30:08.640 to Skype because it does this. It is blocking. Like, I can't hear you if you're interjecting

00:30:14.560 on what I'm saying. It's blocking it. So do you have headphones just so it doesn't seem like we're

00:30:19.840 trying to silence you? It's okay. Yeah. Give me 10 seconds. That's fine. Pulling in the old

00:30:29.240 fashioned iPhone headphones. Let's see. Those are the best ones. So that's totally fine.

00:30:34.380 Gotcha. According to the Guttmacher Institute, which you probably know is a pro-choice, pro-abortion 0.60

00:30:48.480 research institute, they actually say that they cannot find a causal relationship between some of

00:30:54.320 the progressive policies that you're talking about and a reduction in abortion. Now, to be fair, they

00:30:59.100 also say that they can't find a causal relationship between restrictions on abortion and reducing

00:31:04.780 abortion. However, a lot of the time the argument is made that, okay, when Democrats are president, then

00:31:10.580 you see abortion rates lower. So that must mean that democratic policies are reducing abortions. For

00:31:15.640 example, when Barack Obama was president, the abortion rate was lower than I believe when George W. Bush

00:31:21.340 was president. However, if you look a little bit more closely at that, presidents are not the ones

00:31:28.280 that are making abortion policy. The state legislatures are making abortion policy. And when Barack Obama was

00:31:34.620 president, Republicans dominated state legislatures and passed more anti-abortion bills than they had

00:31:39.820 in all of history. And so like if you want to surmise that maybe there's a causal relationship between

00:31:45.420 one thing and the abortion rate, you would have to look at the fact that the actual people who are

00:31:51.460 making abortion policy, which is not the president, which is typically not the federal government,

00:31:55.860 their state governments, they were passing anti-abortion pro-life legislation while Barack Obama

00:32:00.740 was president. So I just find this idea that, oh, we need all these progressive policies and then

00:32:06.500 we'll reduce abortion. I understand the assumption that that would be the case, but I don't think there's

00:32:12.700 very much, much research that is supporting that. In addition, even if we did have discussions

00:32:17.680 about, okay, what policies can we put in place that will help women, that will help children,

00:32:22.260 that will kind of take away the felt need of abortion, I still don't think that is a justification

00:32:27.400 for taking away the rights of pre-born children simply because they're defenseless, simply because

00:32:33.040 they're not politically useful, simply because they're young or small or exist inside the womb.

00:32:37.600 That's not a legal justification for killing anyone, including babies inside the womb.

00:32:43.820 But you know, that's a straw man. Nobody is saying that we're, people don't support abortion

00:32:48.040 because we don't think these potential lives are politically useful. My question for you is,

00:32:52.720 do you support Roe v. Wade completely being overturned and abortion being banned, made illegal

00:32:57.260 across the country in any form?

00:32:59.440 Oh, so you don't. Oh, okay. So that is not what happens when Roe v. Wade is overturned. So

00:33:05.420 no, but it is what's happening in a lot of these states that have trigger laws.

00:33:08.180 You just asked if I, you just asked if Roe v. Wade is overturned and abortion is banned across

00:33:14.800 the board, but that's not going to happen. That's not what overturning Roe v. Wade does.

00:33:17.780 I'm asking you what you believe. I'm asking you what you want to see.

00:33:20.620 Yes, I definitely want to see Roe v. Wade overturned. 100% want to see Roe v. Wade overturned.

00:33:24.440 No, do you want to see abortion banned across the country? Yes or no?

00:33:26.800 Yes, I believe that we should be able to legally recognize the rights of unborn children because

00:33:32.300 they're people just like anyone else.

00:33:34.140 You're not answering the question. Should abortion be illegal across the country under all circumstances?

00:33:37.900 Yes, yes, yes. I've already said that.

00:33:38.900 All circumstances.

00:33:40.080 Yeah. Abortion should be illegal because these are human beings. They're human beings. 1.00

00:33:45.140 I think that's an insane policy. I think it's out of sync with almost all Christian theology. 0.91

00:33:49.300 It's insane to kill children simply because you have decided that at one week in gestation,

00:33:55.520 completely arbitrarily, that they all of a sudden become human beings and all of a sudden become

00:34:00.460 people with rights just because we say so. Yes, absolutely. Now, listen, I know a lot of people

00:34:07.000 are saying, oh, well, this is going to ban the treatment of miscarriages. This is going to ban

00:34:10.940 the treatment of ectopic pregnancies. This is going to stop women whose lives are at risk from receiving

00:34:15.940 care. That's not true. In all of those situations, I understand a baby has to be removed. That is

00:34:21.460 different than purposely stopping the heartbeat of and poisoning a child. I do understand that there

00:34:27.340 are some complex questions and some hard decisions that have to be made if the physical life of a

00:34:31.860 woman is truly at risk with the continuation of their pregnancy. Now, any time after viability,

00:34:37.280 as we've already talked about, is 23 weeks. That baby has to be removed anyway, so that baby should

00:34:41.720 be delivered, not purposely killed. The baby's coming out anyway. Now, before that, I do believe

00:34:47.300 everything should be done to try to protect the life of both the mother and the child. If the baby

00:34:53.320 sadly, tragically has to be removed, that's what has to happen. But we're talking about the intentional

00:34:58.260 killing of a child. And I always think that that is wrong. I always think that that should be illegal.

00:35:04.280 Yes, I've said that many times, so I'm certainly not afraid to say that. And our fundamental

00:35:09.040 disagreement and the fundamental disagreement with my side of the aisle on this argument is that

00:35:13.460 potential life is not life. And I think you're going to keep pushing back on that. And I think

00:35:17.880 we fundamentally disagree. And I think we stand on the side of the science. And that's where this

00:35:22.700 disagreement comes down to. Yeah, and I just really want you to cite the science that says a human is

00:35:26.140 not a human until 20 weeks. And cite the science that says a viability is the science.

00:35:31.420 Viability is not humanity. Viability is not the same thing as you. No, it's not. No, it is not.

00:35:36.100 Because then, again, you could apply that outside of the womb. Viability means that they can survive 0.94

00:35:40.720 without the help of the mother outside of the womb. There are plenty of people who cannot survive

00:35:47.480 without the help of, for example, a machine. And so your standard is arbitrary. Your standard is

00:35:54.080 arbitrary. Those are two very different things. Those are two very different things. Tell me how.

00:35:58.220 People that need to survive with a machine is very different than an infant. We know the skin.

00:36:02.800 Again, the skin of a fetus before viability can barely survive being touched outside of the womb.

00:36:09.760 Okay. It takes the chances of that potential life becoming an actual life are almost none.

00:36:16.480 We know that to be true. They're alive in the womb. What does it mean?

00:36:20.820 It's not. What is life? What does alive mean? What does alive mean?

00:36:24.700 They're alive from the point of conception because, again, otherwise a miscarriage or an abortion

00:36:28.960 wouldn't do anything. No, you cannot logically explain how a potential thing. No, you can't.

00:36:35.340 You haven't been able to do it. How something that potentially exists can then stop existing.

00:36:40.140 If it potentially exists, then it never existed.

00:36:42.400 It's not existence. No, that's not true. Exactly. And so it can't cease to exist.

00:36:45.660 It's growing. So a miscarriage and abortion is nothing. This is how biology works.

00:36:48.300 No. I'm sorry that you're denying biology. Yes. When growth, when anything grows biologically,

00:36:52.940 it is a potential until it becomes the full thing. We can use an argument that, as we did earlier,

00:36:58.220 that is not quite as charged. Take any biological plant that is growing. As it's growing,

00:37:03.340 it is not the full thing. A tree is not a tree until it's fully grown into a tree.

00:37:07.300 It is a potential for that. No, listen. There's a seed. There's a sapling. There are different

00:37:12.160 stages of being a tree. It's never less of a tree. There are different stages of human life. There

00:37:18.720 are different stages of an organism's development. In the same way that an infant is not an adult,

00:37:27.060 it's still a human being. But we call an infant a child in the same way that we call a fetus a baby.

00:37:32.160 It's just a different stage of human development.

00:37:34.940 So the ambiguity that's being highlighted. Just because a person is less developed

00:37:39.820 does not mean that they are not as much of a human as someone who is more developed. That's

00:37:44.940 basically your argument. And again, my argument is that it's not a human at all.

00:37:49.600 It's not a human at all. There's no science backing that. I'm telling you, dude, there's no

00:37:52.780 science backing that. There is no science backing your perspective either. Yes, there is.

00:37:55.640 No, there isn't. Okay, cite it. Cite it, man. Cite your science, man.

00:37:59.960 Cite it because every piece of embryology. No, you can't just say every piece of embryology.

00:38:06.840 You don't have any science to back your perspective. The question is not when human

00:38:12.120 life begins. That is not an argument. Yes, it is. That is the precise question. The debate is over

00:38:16.420 personhood. For pastors, for theologians, it is about when life begins. That is the question I'm

00:38:21.540 interested in. You're avoiding that because you want to be pro-choice, because you want to be pro-abortion.

00:38:27.840 Be pro-choice. I didn't start off saying I want to be pro-choice. I started off studying my

00:38:32.260 tradition, studying scripture, talking to women in my congregation. And I arrived at this conclusion

00:38:36.800 because of the science, because of my own philosophical reasoning and theological reasoning.

00:38:40.680 This is what I believe is the right thing for our country. This is what I believe based on all the

00:38:44.580 evidence I've seen and read. This is the perspective I believe most helps the most people in our country

00:38:49.740 that protects the rights of women. And that's where I'm going to stand.

00:38:53.720 Okay. Well, I don't know if I'm going to be able to change your position. I still think that your

00:38:59.400 position is extremely, is extremely arbitrary, especially like, I believe that it's conception,

00:39:05.420 but of course there are people who believe, okay, well, it's when the heart beats and that's about

00:39:09.280 18 days after conception. There are some people believe that there it's when there's brain waves,

00:39:14.340 which is about six weeks and two days after conception, there's independent.

00:39:17.200 All arbitrary. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Oh, you make such a good point. It is all completely

00:39:23.940 arbitrary unless you start when life actually begins. With viability. No, unless you start at

00:39:29.160 conception, but not all babies are viable at 24 weeks. See, so it's arbitrary unless you start when

00:39:34.700 life actually begins, which is conception. That's when we have separate DNA, distinct DNA. That is when,

00:39:41.060 by the way, gender is decided. XX or XY at the moment of conception. That's sex, not gender,

00:39:46.440 but we can have another conversation about that. Oh, yes, we can.

00:39:49.880 Can I just say one thing before, before this comes to an end? I think the one thing that I am most

00:39:54.840 passionate about as a follower of Jesus Christ is that we need to be able to have the ability to have

00:39:58.960 these conversations without demonizing the other side. And since posting my TikTok video on your

00:40:04.280 feed asking for interviews yesterday, the vitriol from your side, and I acknowledge there's vitriol on

00:40:09.940 my side, has been nonstop. This is not the way we're going to move forward on this conversation.

00:40:14.720 Demonizing each other is not the way we're going to move forward on this conversation.

00:40:18.380 People on my side aren't supporting being pro-choice because we hate babies. That's all

00:40:24.380 that's demonizing. That's untrue. And we need to be able to have reasonable, rational conversations,

00:40:29.820 not emotional conversations about this. And then perhaps we can change each other's hearts and

00:40:34.380 minds. Then perhaps we can actually make progress in this country. And I think the demonization that

00:40:38.580 takes place, again, on both sides is completely unhelpful and is preventing our nation from leaning

00:40:44.540 in to the best values that we have and to actually making progress in whatever direction on these

00:40:50.160 policies.

00:40:50.960 Now, I would agree with you there. And I do. And I just want to tell anyone who is listening

00:40:54.980 to this, watching this, I'm looking at you, YouTube commenters, because YouTube is a totally

00:40:59.060 different field. It seems like that there should absolutely be no hate. There can be passionate

00:41:04.480 disagreement, which I think is a great thing. But any kind of personal attacks is wrong and never

00:41:08.840 something that I would support. Yes, I do see a lot. And I know we have our own perspectives

00:41:14.300 and bias. Of course, from my perspective, I see like the vitriol and just threats to people's

00:41:19.860 lives coming from the pro-choice side. When I posted the other day that the person who leaked

00:41:25.120 the Roe v. Wade decision that they want to see the lives of conservative justices being threatened

00:41:32.360 and their children, because that's what's going to happen. What I got from blue checkmark,

00:41:35.720 journalists, journalists were saying, good, they shouldn't have made this decision and

00:41:40.020 they shouldn't have done it. Good. I'm not saying there's no vitriol on the anti-abortion

00:41:43.740 side, but man, like you're talking about demonization. I am talking, I am looking at threats to people's

00:41:49.620 lives because they are pro-life that I agree with. I agree. That's a problem.

00:41:53.280 That's indefensible. And I've gotten many tweets over the past day that says my mom should have 0.85

00:41:56.900 aborted me because of my perspective. It's terrible. Yes. So it's, we need to stop that. We need to be

00:42:01.900 able to have a reasonable conversation. And I do appreciate you willing to,

00:42:05.720 dialogue across the divide about this. So thank you.

00:42:08.100 Well, for the record, I am glad that you are here and I'm glad that your mom chose life.

00:42:15.140 I am glad that you are a person made in the image of God who I believe, and as much as we disagree

00:42:20.660 on theology and on the gospel, you know, I believe that Jesus died for our sins and by grace through

00:42:28.820 faith, we can be made alive through him. And gosh, I really do hope and pray that he changes your heart

00:42:34.760 and your mind on this. Maybe not, but maybe we can have another conversation in the future about some

00:42:40.040 more fundamental disagreements that we have because I enjoyed it.

00:42:43.960 Well, likewise, again, thank you. Thank you.

00:42:45.640 And I'm grateful for the opportunity.

00:42:47.520 Thanks very much. Have a good day.

00:42:49.140 You too. Peace.

00:42:50.380 All right, guys, I told you it was going to be a fiery, a fiery conversation. Again,

00:43:01.600 I appreciate him coming on and I hope that you appreciated that conversation. Maybe I'll have

00:43:05.540 him back. We've got some very fundamental disagreements about the Bible. For example,

00:43:09.660 he doesn't believe that the Bible is the word of God. I would say that that is a very fundamental

00:43:14.340 disagreement that we have. And so it'd be really interesting to have him back on. As I said in the

00:43:20.660 beginning, it's rare to have a progressive willing to debate these issues with a conservative. And so

00:43:26.200 maybe this can be some kind of series that we have. And I appreciate you guys listening as well.

00:43:32.740 I just kind of want to reiterate because, you know, I wasn't expecting that we would kind of get stuck

00:43:37.140 on the when life begins. I kind of just, he has made the argument in the past that God has given

00:43:43.360 people autonomy, women autonomy over their bodies, and that that is sacred and they get to decide

00:43:48.820 what to do with their bodies. And so I kind of thought we would get more into that. And we

00:43:52.760 didn't. What I would say to that argument is that your autonomy, your liberty, your rights,

00:43:58.480 your choices end where another person's right to life begins. And so there are a lot of things that

00:44:04.080 you have autonomy over as a human being. There are a lot of things that you can do with your body.

00:44:08.160 You can do anything with your body, but you can't use your body to punch me. That's assault.

00:44:11.440 And you will get in trouble because of that. And so we understand this principle that your autonomy

00:44:15.840 has limits depending on how it infringes upon the rights, not just the desires, but the rights of

00:44:23.520 someone else. And so we didn't get into that argument, but that's what I would say to that.

00:44:29.620 Again, once again, it's that principle of bringing it back to the humanity of the life of the child and

00:44:34.520 reminding people what abortion actually is. And by the way, again, open an embryology textbook,

00:44:42.360 you will find when human life begins. I personally still think he is confused about what the debate is

00:44:48.480 actually over. The debate is over personhood. That's a philosophical debate, not a scientific

00:44:55.280 debate over when humanity begins. And as you saw, he was unable or unwilling to answer that.

00:45:01.340 As appreciative as I am of his willingness to at least try and talk to me about it.

00:45:09.880 I do just want to end. I thought John Piper has given really good, just 10 solid reasons why

00:45:16.640 abortion is wrong. And I appreciate his insight into a lot of these subjects, in particular 1.00

00:45:22.900 abortion. So 10 reasons why it is wrong to take the life of unborn children. Number one, 0.59

00:45:28.840 God commanded thou shalt not murder, Exodus 20, 13. Two, the destruction of conceived human life, 0.96

00:45:34.140 whether embryonic, fetal, or viable, is an assault on the unique person forming work of God.

00:45:38.960 Three, aborting unborn humans falls under the repeated biblical ban against shedding

00:45:43.420 innocent blood. And I didn't see a reference there, but I did write it down. And the command that he is

00:45:51.200 talking about there is Jeremiah 22, 16 through 17. But you have eyes and heart only for your dishonest

00:45:58.380 gain. God is judging Judah here for shedding innocent blood and for practicing oppression 0.88

00:46:03.960 and violence. And so this absolutely goes under the category of oppression and violence.

00:46:09.620 The Bible frequently expresses the high priority. Number four, God puts on the protection and provision

00:46:15.820 of vindication of the weakest and most helpless and most victimized members of the community.

00:46:20.700 Certainly the most helpless members of our community are these babies inside the womb. And I also wanted 0.98

00:46:26.480 to get into with Brandon, what an abortion procedure at 20 weeks, 21 weeks, pre-viability, 22 weeks,

00:46:33.940 what that entails and how violent it is and how that squirming, moving baby is brutally killed at that

00:46:41.380 point in gestation. I mean, there's just no question of whether or not this is evil.

00:46:48.700 Number five, John Piper says, by judging difficult and even tragic human life as a worse evil than

00:46:54.360 taking life, abortion is contradict the widespread biblical teaching that God loves to show his 0.89

00:46:59.740 gracious power through suffering and not just by helping people avoid suffering. So he is speaking to

00:47:06.080 that point that you often hear on the pro-choice sidewall that their life might be hard or that they might be

00:47:11.260 unwanted or they might end up in foster care or they might be poor or whatever justification that

00:47:16.900 they give. And he is saying that avoiding suffering in life is not the goal. It's not the goal and it's

00:47:24.900 not a justification for killing someone. And he points out that God's mercy can work through a

00:47:30.080 person's hardship and suffering. It's not an excuse to kill someone. Number six, this goes along with

00:47:35.460 that. It is a sin of presumption, John Piper says, to justify abortion by taking comfort in the fact

00:47:40.620 that all these little children will go to heaven or even be given full adult life in the resurrection.

00:47:45.640 That's also what you hear, that these souls are just going back to God. So what's the problem with

00:47:49.440 it? Well, you could argue then, then why don't you just murder everyone who is, that would be the 0.99

00:47:56.320 justification for murdering anyone who you believe is going to heaven outside of the womb too. So that

00:48:01.340 doesn't really hold up. Number seven, John Piper says, the Bible commands us to rescue our neighbor who is 1.00

00:48:06.120 being unjustly led away to death. Number eight, aborted unborn children falls under Jesus's rebuke

00:48:12.620 of those who spurn children is inconvenient and unworthy of the Savior's attention. He is referring 0.99

00:48:17.060 to Matthew 19 there. And I can read that passage. Then children were brought to him, Jesus, that he

00:48:26.000 might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people. But Jesus said, let the little

00:48:30.400 children come to me and do not hinder them for two such belongs the kingdom of heaven. And he laid his

00:48:36.320 hands on them and went away. Number nine, it is the right of God, the maker to give and to take human

00:48:44.000 life. It is not our individual right to make this choice. Now, I would say that there's a caveat here

00:48:50.600 for the justification of the death penalty in cases of murder. But I am supposing probably that John

00:48:56.120 Piper is talking about innocent life here. Number 10, finally, saving faith in Jesus Christ

00:49:01.400 brings forgiveness of sins and cleansing of conscience and help through life and hope for

00:49:04.980 eternity. Surrounded by such omnipotent love, every follower of Jesus is free from the greed and fear

00:49:10.080 that might lure a person to forsake these truths in order to gain money or avoid reproach. So I think

00:49:16.160 those are 10 really good reasons. There's probably 100 more. But it all comes down to the fact that human

00:49:21.400 beings from conception onward are made in the image of God. And therefore, it is murder and

00:49:25.960 therefore a sin to murder them. And if there is anything, if there is anything that a government

00:49:32.960 should do, if there is any job that a government has, even the most limited libertarian government,

00:49:37.780 it is to protect the innocent person. It is to protect the innocent human being. It is to protect

00:49:45.820 their right, the most fundamental right not to be murdered inside the womb. So I'm proud of you

00:49:51.980 guys. Again, I just want to reiterate that. Keep on being bold. Courage begets courage. Politics matter

00:49:57.640 because people matter. Raise a respectful ruckus. This is the hill. If you want one hill, of course,

00:50:05.040 in addition to the hill, the gospel, if you want one hill to fight on, let this be it. It's a matter of

00:50:10.880 life and death. You're doing good work. Keep being bold. Keep being courageous. Keep being obedient.

00:50:17.260 We will be back here on on Monday. Who the heck knows what we're going to end up talking about. We

00:50:21.940 have rearranged a lot of stuff this week to continue talking about this important subject. And I truly

00:50:26.460 thank God for the opportunities that I've had over the past couple of weeks to talk about to talk

00:50:31.920 about this. I have thankfully I've had three media interviews and I had a speech that I gave just

00:50:37.240 yesterday. And I got to talk about this in every single situation. And I'm just, and on here, of

00:50:42.620 course, and I'm just thankful for the platform. I'm thankful for the ability to talk about it.

00:50:47.420 And I just praise the Lord for not just giving me a voice, but giving all of you a voice too. We're in

00:50:53.520 this together and I am so glad to partner with you in trying to protect the most vulnerable. Our fight

00:50:58.780 is worth it and expect pushback, but the pushback is worth it too. So thank you guys so much for

00:51:04.420 listening and for being here. We will be back here on Monday.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - October 06, 2022

REPLAY： DEBATE： Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice Christian ｜ Guest： Brandan Robertson

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