Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - October 06, 2022


REPLAY: DEBATE: Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice Christian | Guest: Brandan Robertson


Episode Stats


Length

51 minutes

Words per minute

190.22005

Word count

9,725

Sentence count

713

Harmful content

Misogyny

11

sentences flagged

Hate speech

30

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Pro-choice pastor Brandon J.R. Robertson joins me to debate the controversial topic of abortion and the pro-choice movement. I'm so passionate about this topic that I had to record a fiery episode to get my voice heard.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.840 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Thursday. This episode is brought to you by our friends
00:00:05.160 at Good Ranchers. American meat delivered right to your front door. Go to goodranchers.com
00:00:09.000 slash Allie. That's goodranchers.com slash Allie. All right, guys, I've got an episode
00:00:23.820 for you today, a fiery episode. I just recorded an interview, a debate with Brandon J. Robertson.
00:00:30.580 He is a progressive. He calls himself a progressive Christian, a pastor of Metanoia Church. He calls
00:00:36.620 himself a public theologian. Now, you might know his name and you might know his face and voice if
00:00:42.340 you listen to this podcast or if you watch some of my videos on Instagram because I have reacted to
00:00:48.020 a previous video that he did saying that Lazarus coming out of the tomb was Jesus calling gay
00:00:53.800 people to come out of the closet. And so that's who we're talking to today. He is pro-choice.
00:01:00.860 And so we are debating abortion. Now, I would call that pro-abortion. He refers to himself
00:01:06.600 as pro-choice. And so we had a very, you guys know how passionate I am about this subject. And so it
00:01:12.360 did get very intense at times. But I am very appreciative of Brandon being willing to come on
00:01:18.260 because most people that we ask, that conservative shows in general, ask to debate, especially
00:01:23.780 the subject, say no. He was very respectful. So guys, if you disagree with him, especially
00:01:28.980 on YouTube, please leave respectful comments. There should be absolutely no ad hominem attacks.
00:01:35.220 Be as respectful in your disagreement and your dialogue as possible. That's what we're looking
00:01:41.140 for. We can be very passionate. You will hear in this conversation. I get extremely riled up about
00:01:46.400 the arguments that were being made. And that's fine. That's fine. But we should resist any kind
00:01:52.800 of personal attacks because it's good that we have this kind of dialogue. Before we get into the
00:01:57.800 conversation, I just want to address that a lot of you guys have been sending me messages over the past
00:02:02.900 few days just with the ridiculous posts that your friends are sharing that you didn't even realize that
00:02:08.060 your friends were pro-choice. You didn't realize that they supported abortion and the legal right to
00:02:12.160 abortion. And they have been posting about women's rights and how scary this is and how terrible this 0.54
00:02:17.940 is over the past few days. And you have asked me several times to respond to the popular post that you
00:02:25.300 are seeing circulated by Brene Brown, by Glennon Doyle, by several other even professing Christian
00:02:31.600 influencers. Or you have pointed out that a lot of your favorite female Christian influencers who are
00:02:38.280 so quick to talk about social justice or police brutality, even alleged police brutality or what's
00:02:44.560 happening at the border have nothing to say about abortion, even though they call themselves pro-life.
00:02:49.780 And unfortunately, I have not been able to respond to every single argument out there, every single
00:02:54.720 post that you guys have sent me and every single message over the past few days. This reminds me a lot
00:02:59.360 of June of 2020, when a lot of your friends were posting things about race and police and social
00:03:06.180 justice that were simply not backed up either by biblical theology or by facts and data. And you guys
00:03:13.920 were just asking me for help for arguments for clarity and insanity, because it kind of can feel like
00:03:20.040 we're just going crazy when it feels like we are in the minority. I just want to encourage you guys with
00:03:25.660 a few things. And I posted this on Instagram, I'll say it again here. In every conversation that you have
00:03:31.040 with someone, what you can do if you don't know what to say, if you've never heard that argument
00:03:35.540 before, just bring it back to the baby, bring it back to what an abortion is. Every story that you
00:03:42.200 hear, every anecdote that you're offered, every argument, however nuanced and complex it is, bring
00:03:48.180 it back to, but why is that a justification for killing a human being? Now, what you will often hear,
00:03:54.760 and you'll hear that, I don't want to give too much away, but you'll hear a lot of this conversation
00:03:58.540 in today's discussion. What is a human? When does life begin? And look, science says conception. And so
00:04:06.320 the question is, when does someone get rights? And if it's any time after conception, it becomes
00:04:13.360 arbitrary, right? And arbitrary assignment of rights to certain groups of people based on the whims and
00:04:22.940 desires of people in power have been the mark of every human rights atrocity from slavery to genocide
00:04:29.560 for all of history. And so just go back to the baby, go back to this innocent human life that is being
00:04:35.940 victimized, go back to what the abortion procedure entails, which we have discussed so much. I will link some
00:04:42.800 of my most popular abortion episodes in the description of this show. I've done, we've done so many, so many.
00:04:51.140 So you can just look up relatable abortion wherever you listen to your podcast or on YouTube. They will
00:04:56.820 all come up. We have addressed pretty much every argument under the sun when it comes to abortion.
00:05:02.340 And the second thing that I want to say for all of you who are dealing with these conversations and
00:05:08.100 dialogue and debates and just anger, maybe from some of your friends or family members who are on the
00:05:12.840 other side of this, I just want to encourage you that you're doing a good job. I have gotten so many
00:05:17.640 messages saying, you know, because you listen to a relatable podcast or because we've talked about
00:05:24.940 this so much, or maybe you've listened to other pro-life advocates for a long time, you have felt
00:05:30.140 the courage in a lot of cases for the first time to speak up on behalf of unborn children, to speak up
00:05:37.800 on behalf of this vulnerable class of people. And I just want to commend you for your courage.
00:05:43.580 I just want to commend you for your boldness. And I want to tell you that even if the person's mind
00:05:48.840 didn't change who you messaged, who you talked to, who you texted with, that does not negate the
00:05:54.820 significance of your obedience. All right? That does not negate or minimize in any way the significance
00:06:00.920 of your obedience. You have no idea what seed that you have planted. You have no idea what God is going
00:06:06.520 to do with that conversation. You have no idea what other conversations that person is having,
00:06:10.760 how God is working in their heart and their mind. I mean, think about all of us and the different
00:06:15.660 ways that we have changed our minds on theological or moral things since we became a Christian. Like
00:06:20.920 there are probably some faulty things that all of us believed a few years ago that we no longer
00:06:25.060 believe. And it was a process. It was because of conversations. It was because of things we read.
00:06:29.860 It was because of God working on our hearts. So understand that when you're having the conversations,
00:06:34.640 the arguments that you're having, that your job is to be obedient. Your job is to say what is true.
00:06:41.640 Your job is to speak the truth in love about what abortion is. And God is sovereign over that person.
00:06:48.100 Like God is in charge of changing that person's heart and mind. Ultimately, you are just playing a
00:06:53.640 role. Your job is to be obedient. Your job is to be clear. Your job is to be courageous. Your job is to
00:06:59.920 speak up for the person that is completely forgotten when it comes to pro-abortion arguments. And that
00:07:04.580 is the child that is being victimized, killed, slaughtered, dismembered because of abortion.
00:07:10.200 If the church cannot stand up for this, if this is not an issue that the church can care about that
00:07:16.300 we can't be clear on, then we have completely dropped the ball. Because as we've talked about
00:07:20.560 since the inception of Christianity, we have been a refuge for the most vulnerable, namely children,
00:07:26.300 who have in a million different ways been victims of child sacrifice and exploitation almost since the
00:07:33.860 beginning of human history. The church has to stand against that, including abortion. This is 0.91
00:07:39.160 a biblical issue. This is a Genesis 1 issue that we are made in his image. As R.C. Sproul has said,
00:07:48.320 and I've said many times, if he knows anything about God, it's that God hates abortion. And let me just
00:07:53.040 say, before we get into the conversation, I always want to reiterate this. When I talk about just the
00:07:57.700 wickedness and brutality of abortion, I just want to tell you that if you have had an abortion,
00:08:04.600 if you are thinking about an abortion right now, don't do this alone. I know it might feel lonely.
00:08:10.640 You feel like your shame is crushing you, your fear, your anxiety, whatever, your guilt that is just
00:08:17.120 tearing you apart on the inside because you're thinking about this or have already done this.
00:08:21.540 Listen, you are no worse than any other sinner on earth. All right. You are no less of a candidate 1.00
00:08:30.220 for God's grace and forgiveness and mercy and compassion than anyone else. Ephesians 2 says,
00:08:36.020 we are all dead in sin apart from Christ. There are not different levels of dead. We are all dead
00:08:41.620 in sin apart from Christ. If you have had an abortion and it is a secret that has been weighing on your
00:08:47.420 heart, you need to go to a pro-life pregnancy center. You need to go to someone within your
00:08:52.220 church. You need to go to a trusted Christian friend and tell them, bring that to light. Let
00:08:58.540 God heal you. Let God show you how good he is, how much he loves you, that he sent his son to die for
00:09:05.160 that sin, to cover it up, to pay every single debt that we have, every single sin that we have
00:09:10.320 committed. There is no sin too big, too secret, too dark, too grave that God cannot forgive,
00:09:17.020 that Jesus's blood does not cover. There is hope for you and God can use your testimony, your life
00:09:24.000 as a testament to his grace and to help people and to show people who he is, what he's done for you,
00:09:32.120 and to save the lives of other unborn children and to help women who are considering the same
00:09:36.440 thing that you have done. And if you are a woman who is pregnant, you don't know how you're going to 1.00
00:09:40.380 do it. Maybe you're considering an abortion. There are people to help you. I want you to go to your
00:09:46.120 local pro-life pregnancy center. You can look up pregnancy resource center in your area. I'll try
00:09:50.640 to find a link that shows where these pregnancy resource centers exist. Message me if you can. I
00:09:57.940 pray to God that I will see it and I will connect you to the right people. That would not be the first
00:10:02.740 time that that has happened behind the scenes. There will be no shame or judgment in our conversation.
00:10:08.280 I just want you to know that you are not alone. You are not alone and there are options for you
00:10:14.880 and we will help you however we can. And so I just want to make sure that we have that. And look,
00:10:23.740 if you are someone who is pro-choice or you are someone who considers yourself pro-abortion or maybe
00:10:28.720 personally pro-life or politically pro-abortion, I hope that you will go back and listen to some
00:10:36.200 abortion episodes that we've had or some of the conversation that we're about to have today and
00:10:40.540 that you would reconsider your position. And remember that these are people made in the image
00:10:44.600 of God that we're talking about and we're talking about legally murdering them. This is a matter of
00:10:48.720 life and death and there's not really a question of which side Christians should be on. Of course, 1.00
00:10:53.860 my guest today, he disagrees and we will get into that fiery disagreement in a second,
00:10:58.980 but I just kind of wanted to give some context and a precursor for all of that.
00:11:06.200 Brandon, thank you so much for joining us. And like I said, before the camera started rolling for
00:11:12.060 being willing to dialogue across the aisle about this important subject. So first,
00:11:17.280 I'm just going to open it up to you. If you could just briefly kind of summarize why you consider
00:11:21.920 yourself pro-choice, why you believe that abortion should be a legal option for women.
00:11:29.580 Yeah, I think abortion is a morally complex issue. And one thing that I always have said about
00:11:34.340 abortion is that I don't know any progressive person that wants to see abortion increased.
00:11:38.980 We all want to see it decreased. I think the question is about how we do that. And so I believe
00:11:44.520 that there are many instances in which women should have the right to access abortion care. There are
00:11:48.720 many instances, both from a faith perspective historically and from modern scientific perspective,
00:11:54.760 when about why women should have access to abortions. And so I think overturning Roe v. Wade
00:12:00.520 is an attempt to completely ban abortion in many states across this country. And that's a net negative
00:12:07.940 that results in, we know statistically, women doing harm to themselves because they can't access 1.00
00:12:15.940 healthy abortions. You can't ban legal abortion or you can't ban abortion. You can only ban legal 0.52
00:12:20.900 abortions. And so my whole point is I want to see abortions made available. And then through
00:12:27.700 comprehensive sex education, through contraception, through other means, we can work on reducing
00:12:32.920 abortions together. But I think overturning Roe v. Wade and banning abortion altogether
00:12:36.640 is just not an effective way to deal with this issue.
00:12:40.060 Okay, so there's a lot in there that I want to address. First, I do think that it is incorrect to
00:12:45.120 say that there is no one on the progressive side that believes that abortion is good. There was an
00:12:52.040 article, a kind of infamous article, at least from my perspective, in New York Magazine,
00:12:56.120 which is a very mainstream outlet in 2019 titled Abortion is a Moral Good. I've testified before
00:13:02.240 Congress and I heard the women next to me who consider themselves reproductive justice advocates 0.93
00:13:08.040 who talk about not just that abortion is a necessary evil, but that it is actually good for society.
00:13:14.320 It is good for women, especially economically. There's an organization called Shout Your Abortion, 1.00
00:13:19.520 which has been touted by people like Oprah, that is trying to de-stigmatize abortion. So yes,
00:13:25.000 there are many people on the progressive side that are not actually interested in reducing
00:13:29.020 abortion. This whole trope of safe, legal and rare, it might have been something that was popular in
00:13:33.760 the Democratic Party 10, 15 years ago, even by the current president of the United States.
00:13:38.980 That is not the current mission or the platform or the idea that is predominantly
00:13:44.800 perpetuated on the left side. It is that abortion should be accessible without apology for any reason 0.99
00:13:52.540 through nine months and subsidized by the taxpayer. So let's start there. That is the current position
00:13:58.700 of the Democratic Party, that abortion is not evil, that it doesn't necessarily need to be reduced,
00:14:03.780 but that it just needs to be accessed and even free.
00:14:07.760 So I disagree. I think that what I think there are definitely extremes on both sides. I think there
00:14:13.040 are extreme pro-life and pro-choice people that I, as a Christian minister, would disagree with.
00:14:17.520 However, I do think the vast majority of Americans, the 70 percent that support the right to access
00:14:22.800 abortion, want to see abortions decreased through these other means that I've named and that Democrats 0.61
00:14:28.360 and progressives have been naming for many years. And I do think, yeah, you're right. Sure,
00:14:32.920 there are people on the extremes who want to just say abortions for everyone up to nine months.
00:14:38.400 I think that is a minority position. And I don't think you could find in the Democratic platform where
00:14:43.200 that would be explicitly endorsed by any mainstream Democratic Party platform.
00:14:48.760 I actually think it would be very different or it'd be very difficult to find a mainstream Democrat
00:14:53.160 who today would say, here's what I believe should be the limit on abortion. Really, what you hear
00:14:59.800 is that, well, it should just be a choice. I mean, this is the legislation that we're seeing in California,
00:15:04.020 that we're seeing in New Jersey, that we're seeing in Maryland. We are actually seeing the
00:15:07.780 decriminalization of fatal negligence of babies even after they're born and if they survive an abortion.
00:15:14.880 I mean, you saw the Born Alive Survivors Act that Republicans in the Senate tried to pass a couple
00:15:21.540 years ago and no Democrats voted yes on it. This was simply saying that doctors should be required
00:15:27.100 to provide life-saving care to babies who survived an abortion. OK, so that's not even limiting an abortion.
00:15:33.260 No Democrat voted yes on that. So it is a mainstream extremist position on the left.
00:15:39.180 I'm not saying you represent it, but it is a mainstream position on the left that there should
00:15:43.400 be absolutely no limits to abortion. So I just think that you're wrong, that no progressives think
00:15:48.540 that there should be, you know, no limits to abortion. That is the mainstream position today.
00:15:54.360 I didn't say no progressives. And of course, I'm not saying no progressives. I say, by and large,
00:15:57.600 most progressives that I know of would say that about 20 weeks is the general limit on when we
00:16:03.440 would talk about when an abortion can take place. And that's based on viability. That's based on what 0.93
00:16:09.480 we know scientifically, viability of the fetus to be able to actually grow into a full-born baby.
00:16:14.960 OK, well, let's wait. I want to hear more about that because 24 weeks is viability. Babies as young
00:16:19.860 as 21 weeks have survived outside the womb. 24 weeks is actually viability where they have more than
00:16:25.640 a 50 percent chance to survive outside the womb. So let's hear a little bit more about your
00:16:29.440 reasoning. Why should abortion be allowed before 20 weeks, but not after? Well, simply because of
00:16:35.120 viability, simply because they're not viable at 20 weeks. No, exactly. So the moral question here
00:16:40.440 for me as a pastor is, when does life begin? And this is the question that Christians and people
00:16:45.560 of all faith have been debating for thousands of years. In different traditions, there are different
00:16:50.200 answers to this question. I think scientifically, we can say today up to 24 weeks is when a fetus
00:16:55.620 becomes viable. So I think that time frame between 20 to 24 weeks is the time that we
00:17:00.860 then can start talking about restrictions on abortion. I do think there are instances when
00:17:04.840 the mother's life is at risk that we have to talk more broadly about this. This is where
00:17:10.920 it gets morally complex. But I think abortion, like so many moral issues, we want to make this
00:17:16.140 just black and white. It either is completely legal for everyone or it's completely banned for
00:17:21.280 everyone. And I think these are highly individualized situations and it doesn't do good
00:17:25.660 for our polarization. It doesn't do good for the health of anyone in our country when we simply make
00:17:30.580 this black and white, in or out, good or bad, because it's not that simple.
00:17:35.440 So human beings, we become human beings technically, scientifically, at the moment of conception. That's
00:17:41.400 when we have our unique DNA. Now, listen, what you are arguing is, and a lot of people have argued it,
00:17:46.980 you're right. Different traditions say different things. The argument is not whether a person is a
00:17:52.260 human is a human at conception. We have everything that we need and just need time in order to develop
00:17:59.280 into a baby that is able to survive outside the womb. We are all human beings at conception. The
00:18:04.200 question is that you are bringing up is when does a human being become a person? When does a human being
00:18:11.100 get rights? That is really the debate that you are raising. There is no question in embryology or
00:18:16.400 biology when a human being is a human being. I mean, if you have ever seen a baby in a first
00:18:23.800 trimester sonogram, that's a baby. That is a baby. That's not just a blob. That is a baby with not
00:18:31.200 just a heart and a brain and ribs and lungs and fingers and toes moving and kicking and teeth that
00:18:36.820 you can see and lungs that are developing. I mean, you see a fully formed human being at just 10 weeks
00:18:43.680 gestation inside the womb. And so why? Why do you say that that clearly human being that we can see,
00:18:51.660 why is that not a human? Who decided that? Why all the sudden at 20 weeks gestation does that person
00:18:57.960 become a human? Like, when did that happen? And why do you have the authority to say that they're not
00:19:03.700 a human before that? I've never claimed to have any authority on this issue. I'm speaking for my
00:19:08.700 you do because you believe that people should be able to kill that human being before that. So why?
00:19:13.880 Because it's not a human being. I don't think any modern science would say that
00:19:19.260 just when a baby is conceived, that that is now a human being. That is a potential life. I will
00:19:24.500 give you that. It's alive. If it's not alive, then the woman isn't pregnant. Then the woman has had, 0.99
00:19:28.580 what happens in a miscarriage if that human being is not alive in the womb?
00:19:32.220 Viability is the standard by which we know a fetus can become a fully alive human being.
00:19:38.240 They are fully alive. I know that you've never been pregnant. I know that the left is confused
00:19:42.820 about whether men or women can actually carry a child, but that human being is alive. You can feel
00:19:47.900 that baby kicking at 16 weeks. You can see the baby in the sonogram moving and kicking around. They can
00:19:53.400 recognize their mother's voice before the time you say that they are an actual human being. Science does 0.63
00:19:59.060 tell us they're a human being. You are saying that some human beings don't have rights. That is what
00:20:03.680 modern science says. Yours is a superstitious philosophical position, not a scientific one.
00:20:09.120 Well, I am primarily a pastor and theologian. So yes, I'm going to talk from a theological and
00:20:13.160 philosophical perspective primarily. Okay. Give me the theological support for a baby all of a sudden
00:20:18.880 becoming a human at 20 weeks. The earliest Jewish tradition in the Hebrew Bible says that a person
00:20:24.360 doesn't become a person until first breath. Now, I reject that. But here's the thing. There is
00:20:28.680 ancient tradition. There is ancient religious tradition. We would even say there's ancient
00:20:31.640 Judeo-Christian tradition that has disagreed about when exactly life begins. And that is the complex
00:20:36.820 moral question. So I think it's important to go with what the science actually says. I've never read
00:20:42.460 any scientific report in all my studies of abortion over the past eight to 10 years that I've been
00:20:46.420 talking about this topic that says when a baby is conceived, that that is a human being. I don't think any
00:20:52.020 science. What else is it? Okay. Okay. Here. What else is it? If it's not a human being,
00:20:55.860 is it a summer squash? Is it a Tervis tumbler? No, but that doesn't actually exist. We're not
00:21:01.720 potential. We're not potential. That doesn't even make sense. Okay. Tell me then what happens in a
00:21:06.680 miscarriage. That's a potential human life that was ended. That's a horrible. A potential human life
00:21:12.720 that was ended. Do you not hear that that doesn't make any sense? A potential human life can't exist
00:21:17.040 because potential means it doesn't exist yet. Potential by definition means that it does not
00:21:21.960 exist yet. So a potential something cannot end. It has to exist for it to end. It has to live for
00:21:27.800 it to die. That's a completely illogical argument. Potential can be... Let's break it down. Let's
00:21:32.900 break it down. Tell me how something that does not exist ceases to exist. I didn't say it doesn't
00:21:38.440 exist. I said it has the potential to exist and you can stop the potential of that life from becoming
00:21:42.320 real. But it does exist or else it can't die. The potential ends, the potential for that fetus
00:21:49.820 to become a fully... So when a woman is pregnant, she's not actually pregnant with anything. When
00:21:53.740 she sees in the ultrasound at eight weeks that beating heart, that's a potential? Potential
00:21:58.920 what? A potential what? Potential human life. Then what is it at the time you can't... If you see
00:22:05.080 something, if something tangibly exists, this is not a potential... This is not a potential
00:22:09.980 microphone. This is an actual microphone. When you put a seed in the ground, is it a tree or is
00:22:15.080 it a potential tree? It is a potential tree. This is how growth... Listen, it's not just a seed. It's
00:22:19.720 not just a seed that we're talking about. We are talking about all of the cells, all of the cells
00:22:24.980 that are necessary to grow into a fully formed baby. But it is a human being at conception. You
00:22:32.240 simply believe that it is okay to kill certain human beings because they're not big enough yet.
00:22:36.920 That is the debate. There's no scientific debate about whether or not a human is a human at
00:22:41.660 conception. The whole debate is whether or not that human being has rights. And you believe
00:22:46.400 that some human beings don't have rights. That's what you believe.
00:22:50.900 But as a Christian, I think that what you're doing is unethical by jumping the gun and taking words 1.00
00:22:56.000 that I'm not saying and making the words that sound good to your audience. A potential human life is a
00:23:01.180 potential human life. I think scientifically, I stand with the majority of the science today. I'm very
00:23:06.320 confident in that. And again, I'm not... My primary objective is to simply say we want to see abortions 0.98
00:23:13.860 reduced. And the way we're going to do that is not by banning abortions. We can get into the
00:23:17.220 technical conversation, but it's a complex moral conversation that's been going on in our country
00:23:21.520 for a very long time. And there are not clear answers. I want to talk about what is the best
00:23:26.160 way to ensure that women stay healthy, to ensure that our country continues to move forward in a way
00:23:31.960 that protects everyone, including the least vulnerable. And I don't think that is through
00:23:35.720 banning and criminalizing abortion, which is what a number of these Republican states want to do if
00:23:41.200 Roe v. Wade is overturned. And that will... We know statistically that that will cause great harm to
00:23:47.520 women and that will cause great harm to many people across the country, disproportionately affecting 0.95
00:23:51.540 communities of color and communities that are already disadvantaged in our society.
00:23:56.540 Well, unfortunately, people of color are already disproportionately affected by abortion. In New
00:24:02.280 York City, several years in a row, more black babies were aborted than born. A highly disproportionate 0.90
00:24:08.980 number of black babies are aborted every year. And of course, that goes back to the history and the
00:24:13.060 origins of Planned Parenthood, which was started by a white supremacist eugenicist. It's carrying on that
00:24:18.020 legacy today by disproportionately killing unborn children. And so if you want to talk about harm,
00:24:23.760 from our perspective, if you want to talk about harm, if you want to talk about danger,
00:24:27.900 like we can talk about poisoning and dismembering and purposely start stopping the heartbeat of living
00:24:35.380 human beings while they are in the womb. And if you just want to focus on post-viability abortions,
00:24:42.380 unfortunately, that happens at least 10,000 times a year. These are brutal procedures. Really,
00:24:47.620 from conception onward, abortion is a brutal, violent procedure of human beings.
00:24:53.760 That are made in the image of God. So if you want to talk about danger, if you want to talk about
00:24:58.100 violence, if you want to talk about things that are harming, like let's talk about the abortion
00:25:03.240 procedure, which is killing people, which I just can't find in all of my study of scripture,
00:25:08.500 that the God who made us in our mother's womb fearfully and wonderfully and purposely with specificity,
00:25:15.980 that the Jesus who invited the children to come to him, that the God who says in Jeremiah 1,
00:25:21.420 that before he formed us in our womb, that he knew us. I cannot find anywhere in Leviticus when God calls
00:25:29.640 for the death penalty of the Israelites who were sacrificing their children to Molech. I cannot 0.98
00:25:34.760 find anywhere in scripture that that God who purposely creates us, who made us all in his image,
00:25:40.960 who hates the shedding of innocent blood. I cannot find anywhere in scripture that there would be any
00:25:46.620 justification for killing, for example, a 19 and a half week baby, but not a 20 week baby. That's
00:25:53.880 arbitrary. And it has been that arbitrary assignment of personhood and rights has been the logical
00:26:00.500 justification for every single dehumanization and genocide throughout history. There is nowhere
00:26:07.840 in scripture that would do anything but condemn it.
00:26:10.620 You're simply incorrect. Scientifically, we know up to the moment of viability,
00:26:15.040 that thing that you're calling a baby is not yet a baby. I fundamentally disagree.
00:26:18.360 It is a baby. It is a baby. You have never, maybe one day when there is a scientific development
00:26:24.340 to where you can carry a child and you look at the sonogram and you see that child inside of you,
00:26:30.700 there's no difference. There's no difference between a 19 and a half week baby and a 20 week baby.
00:26:35.480 That is a human being that has been kicking the walls of your uterus for several weeks at that 0.84
00:26:40.520 point. They don't suddenly become a baby. That is a superstitious, unscientific view that is not
00:26:46.760 backed by embryology or any biological knowledge of fetal development at all. You have given in
00:26:52.180 to a dogmatic, superstitious view of human life. It is arbitrary. Your view is arbitrary.
00:26:59.260 The leading organizations in our country like the CDC. Cite it for me. And with us. I can cite
00:27:07.240 things for you. We have, let me pull up. Up to 23 weeks, the CDC says that is when the moment of
00:27:15.420 viability is. Viability. Yes. Viability is not the same thing as humanity. And you just said that you
00:27:20.640 are for abortion only until 20 weeks. 20 weeks is a viability. So why? Because up to that point,
00:27:27.700 it is just a potential human life. Why? Why 20 weeks? Why 20 weeks? 20 weeks is not viability. So
00:27:33.000 why? The CDC says 23 weeks. Logically, that's when it becomes fully able to live outside. Not 20
00:27:40.060 weeks. Babies at 20 weeks cannot live outside the womb. So why are you saying that? Why are you saying?
00:27:45.320 Three weeks. I just quoted 23 weeks from the CDC. Earlier you said 20. So now we're a little bit more
00:27:51.860 radical. Okay. So now 23 weeks. Only when a baby can survive outside the womb. And so people who,
00:27:59.080 for example, outside of the womb, who are entirely dependent on a machine to live, who are not able
00:28:05.460 to survive without the help of other people, are those people, should we be able to legally murder 0.96
00:28:10.240 them too? I'm just trying to figure out your definition or your standard of what humanity is,
00:28:14.940 because you haven't been able to cite the science on it.
00:28:17.700 I have actually. You're bringing in external arguments to emotionalize this, which is the
00:28:21.640 problem with this entire debate. It's called logic and you haven't been able to support it.
00:28:25.480 The CDC says that viability starts at 23 weeks, not humanity. Tell me, cite the scientific literature
00:28:31.060 that says humanity starts at 23 weeks. Both extremes want to make this a hyper emotional
00:28:36.220 argument. I'm not willing to do that. I believe this is a complex moral issue. I'm going to continue
00:28:40.640 to stand with the millions of people, the majority of people in our country who believe that abortion
00:28:46.600 should be able to be accessed in order to protect both the health of the mother and a lot of these,
00:28:52.580 a lot of abortions are taking place, their general health practices. This is to be for the well-being
00:28:58.260 of the mother for people. The point is, I think the emotionalization of this argument is not helping us
00:29:07.120 in this country move forward in any way. I think if we overturn Roe versus Wade, I think we are going to 0.85
00:29:12.700 see drastically negative consequences. We're going to see not abortion end. We're going to see legal 0.94
00:29:18.140 abortion end. And that's going to result in people doing things that are going to harm themselves
00:29:22.120 and be very unhealthy for them because they're going to find alternative means to get access to
00:29:28.020 abortion. The way we decrease abortion is through increased sexual education, increased contraceptives,
00:29:33.860 increased women's health. That is what we need to do. We've seen that over the past decade. We've seen 1.00
00:29:39.180 abortions decrease under such policies. If we overturn Roe versus Wade, we can only expect that
00:29:44.000 that abortion numbers are actually going to increase, just not in the legal ways. And it's
00:29:48.900 going to put undue burden on women. This is not the best for our country. This is not the direction we 1.00
00:29:54.020 should be heading. And that's why I'm opposing this action, this potential draft opinion by Justice
00:30:00.500 Aligo. Okay, let me pause for a second because they're telling me two things. That one, your phone is
00:30:04.900 shaking or your tape, your tape, you might have like your hands on your table. So it might be shaking
00:30:08.640 to Skype because it does this. It is blocking. Like, I can't hear you if you're interjecting
00:30:14.560 on what I'm saying. It's blocking it. So do you have headphones just so it doesn't seem like we're
00:30:19.840 trying to silence you? It's okay. Yeah. Give me 10 seconds. That's fine. Pulling in the old
00:30:29.240 fashioned iPhone headphones. Let's see. Those are the best ones. So that's totally fine.
00:30:34.380 Gotcha. According to the Guttmacher Institute, which you probably know is a pro-choice, pro-abortion 0.60
00:30:48.480 research institute, they actually say that they cannot find a causal relationship between some of
00:30:54.320 the progressive policies that you're talking about and a reduction in abortion. Now, to be fair, they
00:30:59.100 also say that they can't find a causal relationship between restrictions on abortion and reducing
00:31:04.780 abortion. However, a lot of the time the argument is made that, okay, when Democrats are president, then
00:31:10.580 you see abortion rates lower. So that must mean that democratic policies are reducing abortions. For
00:31:15.640 example, when Barack Obama was president, the abortion rate was lower than I believe when George W. Bush
00:31:21.340 was president. However, if you look a little bit more closely at that, presidents are not the ones
00:31:28.280 that are making abortion policy. The state legislatures are making abortion policy. And when Barack Obama was
00:31:34.620 president, Republicans dominated state legislatures and passed more anti-abortion bills than they had
00:31:39.820 in all of history. And so like if you want to surmise that maybe there's a causal relationship between
00:31:45.420 one thing and the abortion rate, you would have to look at the fact that the actual people who are
00:31:51.460 making abortion policy, which is not the president, which is typically not the federal government,
00:31:55.860 their state governments, they were passing anti-abortion pro-life legislation while Barack Obama
00:32:00.740 was president. So I just find this idea that, oh, we need all these progressive policies and then
00:32:06.500 we'll reduce abortion. I understand the assumption that that would be the case, but I don't think there's
00:32:12.700 very much, much research that is supporting that. In addition, even if we did have discussions
00:32:17.680 about, okay, what policies can we put in place that will help women, that will help children,
00:32:22.260 that will kind of take away the felt need of abortion, I still don't think that is a justification
00:32:27.400 for taking away the rights of pre-born children simply because they're defenseless, simply because
00:32:33.040 they're not politically useful, simply because they're young or small or exist inside the womb.
00:32:37.600 That's not a legal justification for killing anyone, including babies inside the womb.
00:32:43.820 But you know, that's a straw man. Nobody is saying that we're, people don't support abortion
00:32:48.040 because we don't think these potential lives are politically useful. My question for you is,
00:32:52.720 do you support Roe v. Wade completely being overturned and abortion being banned, made illegal
00:32:57.260 across the country in any form?
00:32:59.440 Oh, so you don't. Oh, okay. So that is not what happens when Roe v. Wade is overturned. So
00:33:05.420 no, but it is what's happening in a lot of these states that have trigger laws.
00:33:08.180 You just asked if I, you just asked if Roe v. Wade is overturned and abortion is banned across
00:33:14.800 the board, but that's not going to happen. That's not what overturning Roe v. Wade does.
00:33:17.780 I'm asking you what you believe. I'm asking you what you want to see.
00:33:20.620 Yes, I definitely want to see Roe v. Wade overturned. 100% want to see Roe v. Wade overturned.
00:33:24.440 No, do you want to see abortion banned across the country? Yes or no?
00:33:26.800 Yes, I believe that we should be able to legally recognize the rights of unborn children because
00:33:32.300 they're people just like anyone else.
00:33:34.140 You're not answering the question. Should abortion be illegal across the country under all circumstances?
00:33:37.900 Yes, yes, yes. I've already said that.
00:33:38.900 All circumstances.
00:33:40.080 Yeah. Abortion should be illegal because these are human beings. They're human beings. 1.00
00:33:45.140 I think that's an insane policy. I think it's out of sync with almost all Christian theology. 0.91
00:33:49.300 It's insane to kill children simply because you have decided that at one week in gestation,
00:33:55.520 completely arbitrarily, that they all of a sudden become human beings and all of a sudden become
00:34:00.460 people with rights just because we say so. Yes, absolutely. Now, listen, I know a lot of people
00:34:07.000 are saying, oh, well, this is going to ban the treatment of miscarriages. This is going to ban
00:34:10.940 the treatment of ectopic pregnancies. This is going to stop women whose lives are at risk from receiving
00:34:15.940 care. That's not true. In all of those situations, I understand a baby has to be removed. That is
00:34:21.460 different than purposely stopping the heartbeat of and poisoning a child. I do understand that there
00:34:27.340 are some complex questions and some hard decisions that have to be made if the physical life of a
00:34:31.860 woman is truly at risk with the continuation of their pregnancy. Now, any time after viability,
00:34:37.280 as we've already talked about, is 23 weeks. That baby has to be removed anyway, so that baby should
00:34:41.720 be delivered, not purposely killed. The baby's coming out anyway. Now, before that, I do believe
00:34:47.300 everything should be done to try to protect the life of both the mother and the child. If the baby
00:34:53.320 sadly, tragically has to be removed, that's what has to happen. But we're talking about the intentional
00:34:58.260 killing of a child. And I always think that that is wrong. I always think that that should be illegal.
00:35:04.280 Yes, I've said that many times, so I'm certainly not afraid to say that. And our fundamental
00:35:09.040 disagreement and the fundamental disagreement with my side of the aisle on this argument is that
00:35:13.460 potential life is not life. And I think you're going to keep pushing back on that. And I think
00:35:17.880 we fundamentally disagree. And I think we stand on the side of the science. And that's where this
00:35:22.700 disagreement comes down to. Yeah, and I just really want you to cite the science that says a human is
00:35:26.140 not a human until 20 weeks. And cite the science that says a viability is the science.
00:35:31.420 Viability is not humanity. Viability is not the same thing as you. No, it's not. No, it is not.
00:35:36.100 Because then, again, you could apply that outside of the womb. Viability means that they can survive 0.94
00:35:40.720 without the help of the mother outside of the womb. There are plenty of people who cannot survive
00:35:47.480 without the help of, for example, a machine. And so your standard is arbitrary. Your standard is
00:35:54.080 arbitrary. Those are two very different things. Those are two very different things. Tell me how.
00:35:58.220 People that need to survive with a machine is very different than an infant. We know the skin.
00:36:02.800 Again, the skin of a fetus before viability can barely survive being touched outside of the womb.
00:36:09.760 Okay. It takes the chances of that potential life becoming an actual life are almost none.
00:36:16.480 We know that to be true. They're alive in the womb. What does it mean?
00:36:20.820 It's not. What is life? What does alive mean? What does alive mean?
00:36:24.700 They're alive from the point of conception because, again, otherwise a miscarriage or an abortion
00:36:28.960 wouldn't do anything. No, you cannot logically explain how a potential thing. No, you can't.
00:36:35.340 You haven't been able to do it. How something that potentially exists can then stop existing.
00:36:40.140 If it potentially exists, then it never existed.
00:36:42.400 It's not existence. No, that's not true. Exactly. And so it can't cease to exist.
00:36:45.660 It's growing. So a miscarriage and abortion is nothing. This is how biology works.
00:36:48.300 No. I'm sorry that you're denying biology. Yes. When growth, when anything grows biologically,
00:36:52.940 it is a potential until it becomes the full thing. We can use an argument that, as we did earlier,
00:36:58.220 that is not quite as charged. Take any biological plant that is growing. As it's growing,
00:37:03.340 it is not the full thing. A tree is not a tree until it's fully grown into a tree.
00:37:07.300 It is a potential for that. No, listen. There's a seed. There's a sapling. There are different
00:37:12.160 stages of being a tree. It's never less of a tree. There are different stages of human life. There
00:37:18.720 are different stages of an organism's development. In the same way that an infant is not an adult,
00:37:27.060 it's still a human being. But we call an infant a child in the same way that we call a fetus a baby.
00:37:32.160 It's just a different stage of human development.
00:37:34.940 So the ambiguity that's being highlighted. Just because a person is less developed
00:37:39.820 does not mean that they are not as much of a human as someone who is more developed. That's
00:37:44.940 basically your argument. And again, my argument is that it's not a human at all.
00:37:49.600 It's not a human at all. There's no science backing that. I'm telling you, dude, there's no
00:37:52.780 science backing that. There is no science backing your perspective either. Yes, there is.
00:37:55.640 No, there isn't. Okay, cite it. Cite it, man. Cite your science, man.
00:37:59.960 Cite it because every piece of embryology. No, you can't just say every piece of embryology.
00:38:06.840 You don't have any science to back your perspective. The question is not when human
00:38:12.120 life begins. That is not an argument. Yes, it is. That is the precise question. The debate is over
00:38:16.420 personhood. For pastors, for theologians, it is about when life begins. That is the question I'm
00:38:21.540 interested in. You're avoiding that because you want to be pro-choice, because you want to be pro-abortion.
00:38:27.840 Be pro-choice. I didn't start off saying I want to be pro-choice. I started off studying my
00:38:32.260 tradition, studying scripture, talking to women in my congregation. And I arrived at this conclusion
00:38:36.800 because of the science, because of my own philosophical reasoning and theological reasoning.
00:38:40.680 This is what I believe is the right thing for our country. This is what I believe based on all the
00:38:44.580 evidence I've seen and read. This is the perspective I believe most helps the most people in our country
00:38:49.740 that protects the rights of women. And that's where I'm going to stand.
00:38:53.720 Okay. Well, I don't know if I'm going to be able to change your position. I still think that your
00:38:59.400 position is extremely, is extremely arbitrary, especially like, I believe that it's conception,
00:39:05.420 but of course there are people who believe, okay, well, it's when the heart beats and that's about
00:39:09.280 18 days after conception. There are some people believe that there it's when there's brain waves,
00:39:14.340 which is about six weeks and two days after conception, there's independent.
00:39:17.200 All arbitrary. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Oh, you make such a good point. It is all completely
00:39:23.940 arbitrary unless you start when life actually begins. With viability. No, unless you start at
00:39:29.160 conception, but not all babies are viable at 24 weeks. See, so it's arbitrary unless you start when
00:39:34.700 life actually begins, which is conception. That's when we have separate DNA, distinct DNA. That is when,
00:39:41.060 by the way, gender is decided. XX or XY at the moment of conception. That's sex, not gender,
00:39:46.440 but we can have another conversation about that. Oh, yes, we can.
00:39:49.880 Can I just say one thing before, before this comes to an end? I think the one thing that I am most
00:39:54.840 passionate about as a follower of Jesus Christ is that we need to be able to have the ability to have
00:39:58.960 these conversations without demonizing the other side. And since posting my TikTok video on your
00:40:04.280 feed asking for interviews yesterday, the vitriol from your side, and I acknowledge there's vitriol on
00:40:09.940 my side, has been nonstop. This is not the way we're going to move forward on this conversation.
00:40:14.720 Demonizing each other is not the way we're going to move forward on this conversation.
00:40:18.380 People on my side aren't supporting being pro-choice because we hate babies. That's all
00:40:24.380 that's demonizing. That's untrue. And we need to be able to have reasonable, rational conversations,
00:40:29.820 not emotional conversations about this. And then perhaps we can change each other's hearts and
00:40:34.380 minds. Then perhaps we can actually make progress in this country. And I think the demonization that
00:40:38.580 takes place, again, on both sides is completely unhelpful and is preventing our nation from leaning
00:40:44.540 in to the best values that we have and to actually making progress in whatever direction on these
00:40:50.160 policies.
00:40:50.960 Now, I would agree with you there. And I do. And I just want to tell anyone who is listening
00:40:54.980 to this, watching this, I'm looking at you, YouTube commenters, because YouTube is a totally
00:40:59.060 different field. It seems like that there should absolutely be no hate. There can be passionate
00:41:04.480 disagreement, which I think is a great thing. But any kind of personal attacks is wrong and never
00:41:08.840 something that I would support. Yes, I do see a lot. And I know we have our own perspectives
00:41:14.300 and bias. Of course, from my perspective, I see like the vitriol and just threats to people's
00:41:19.860 lives coming from the pro-choice side. When I posted the other day that the person who leaked
00:41:25.120 the Roe v. Wade decision that they want to see the lives of conservative justices being threatened
00:41:32.360 and their children, because that's what's going to happen. What I got from blue checkmark,
00:41:35.720 journalists, journalists were saying, good, they shouldn't have made this decision and
00:41:40.020 they shouldn't have done it. Good. I'm not saying there's no vitriol on the anti-abortion
00:41:43.740 side, but man, like you're talking about demonization. I am talking, I am looking at threats to people's
00:41:49.620 lives because they are pro-life that I agree with. I agree. That's a problem.
00:41:53.280 That's indefensible. And I've gotten many tweets over the past day that says my mom should have 0.85
00:41:56.900 aborted me because of my perspective. It's terrible. Yes. So it's, we need to stop that. We need to be
00:42:01.900 able to have a reasonable conversation. And I do appreciate you willing to,
00:42:05.720 dialogue across the divide about this. So thank you.
00:42:08.100 Well, for the record, I am glad that you are here and I'm glad that your mom chose life.
00:42:15.140 I am glad that you are a person made in the image of God who I believe, and as much as we disagree
00:42:20.660 on theology and on the gospel, you know, I believe that Jesus died for our sins and by grace through
00:42:28.820 faith, we can be made alive through him. And gosh, I really do hope and pray that he changes your heart
00:42:34.760 and your mind on this. Maybe not, but maybe we can have another conversation in the future about some
00:42:40.040 more fundamental disagreements that we have because I enjoyed it.
00:42:43.960 Well, likewise, again, thank you. Thank you.
00:42:45.640 And I'm grateful for the opportunity.
00:42:47.520 Thanks very much. Have a good day.
00:42:49.140 You too. Peace.
00:42:50.380 All right, guys, I told you it was going to be a fiery, a fiery conversation. Again,
00:43:01.600 I appreciate him coming on and I hope that you appreciated that conversation. Maybe I'll have
00:43:05.540 him back. We've got some very fundamental disagreements about the Bible. For example,
00:43:09.660 he doesn't believe that the Bible is the word of God. I would say that that is a very fundamental
00:43:14.340 disagreement that we have. And so it'd be really interesting to have him back on. As I said in the
00:43:20.660 beginning, it's rare to have a progressive willing to debate these issues with a conservative. And so
00:43:26.200 maybe this can be some kind of series that we have. And I appreciate you guys listening as well.
00:43:32.740 I just kind of want to reiterate because, you know, I wasn't expecting that we would kind of get stuck
00:43:37.140 on the when life begins. I kind of just, he has made the argument in the past that God has given
00:43:43.360 people autonomy, women autonomy over their bodies, and that that is sacred and they get to decide
00:43:48.820 what to do with their bodies. And so I kind of thought we would get more into that. And we
00:43:52.760 didn't. What I would say to that argument is that your autonomy, your liberty, your rights,
00:43:58.480 your choices end where another person's right to life begins. And so there are a lot of things that
00:44:04.080 you have autonomy over as a human being. There are a lot of things that you can do with your body.
00:44:08.160 You can do anything with your body, but you can't use your body to punch me. That's assault.
00:44:11.440 And you will get in trouble because of that. And so we understand this principle that your autonomy
00:44:15.840 has limits depending on how it infringes upon the rights, not just the desires, but the rights of
00:44:23.520 someone else. And so we didn't get into that argument, but that's what I would say to that.
00:44:29.620 Again, once again, it's that principle of bringing it back to the humanity of the life of the child and
00:44:34.520 reminding people what abortion actually is. And by the way, again, open an embryology textbook,
00:44:42.360 you will find when human life begins. I personally still think he is confused about what the debate is
00:44:48.480 actually over. The debate is over personhood. That's a philosophical debate, not a scientific
00:44:55.280 debate over when humanity begins. And as you saw, he was unable or unwilling to answer that.
00:45:01.340 As appreciative as I am of his willingness to at least try and talk to me about it.
00:45:09.880 I do just want to end. I thought John Piper has given really good, just 10 solid reasons why
00:45:16.640 abortion is wrong. And I appreciate his insight into a lot of these subjects, in particular 1.00
00:45:22.900 abortion. So 10 reasons why it is wrong to take the life of unborn children. Number one, 0.59
00:45:28.840 God commanded thou shalt not murder, Exodus 20, 13. Two, the destruction of conceived human life, 0.96
00:45:34.140 whether embryonic, fetal, or viable, is an assault on the unique person forming work of God.
00:45:38.960 Three, aborting unborn humans falls under the repeated biblical ban against shedding
00:45:43.420 innocent blood. And I didn't see a reference there, but I did write it down. And the command that he is
00:45:51.200 talking about there is Jeremiah 22, 16 through 17. But you have eyes and heart only for your dishonest
00:45:58.380 gain. God is judging Judah here for shedding innocent blood and for practicing oppression 0.88
00:46:03.960 and violence. And so this absolutely goes under the category of oppression and violence.
00:46:09.620 The Bible frequently expresses the high priority. Number four, God puts on the protection and provision
00:46:15.820 of vindication of the weakest and most helpless and most victimized members of the community.
00:46:20.700 Certainly the most helpless members of our community are these babies inside the womb. And I also wanted 0.98
00:46:26.480 to get into with Brandon, what an abortion procedure at 20 weeks, 21 weeks, pre-viability, 22 weeks,
00:46:33.940 what that entails and how violent it is and how that squirming, moving baby is brutally killed at that
00:46:41.380 point in gestation. I mean, there's just no question of whether or not this is evil.
00:46:48.700 Number five, John Piper says, by judging difficult and even tragic human life as a worse evil than
00:46:54.360 taking life, abortion is contradict the widespread biblical teaching that God loves to show his 0.89
00:46:59.740 gracious power through suffering and not just by helping people avoid suffering. So he is speaking to
00:47:06.080 that point that you often hear on the pro-choice sidewall that their life might be hard or that they might be
00:47:11.260 unwanted or they might end up in foster care or they might be poor or whatever justification that
00:47:16.900 they give. And he is saying that avoiding suffering in life is not the goal. It's not the goal and it's
00:47:24.900 not a justification for killing someone. And he points out that God's mercy can work through a
00:47:30.080 person's hardship and suffering. It's not an excuse to kill someone. Number six, this goes along with
00:47:35.460 that. It is a sin of presumption, John Piper says, to justify abortion by taking comfort in the fact
00:47:40.620 that all these little children will go to heaven or even be given full adult life in the resurrection.
00:47:45.640 That's also what you hear, that these souls are just going back to God. So what's the problem with
00:47:49.440 it? Well, you could argue then, then why don't you just murder everyone who is, that would be the 0.99
00:47:56.320 justification for murdering anyone who you believe is going to heaven outside of the womb too. So that
00:48:01.340 doesn't really hold up. Number seven, John Piper says, the Bible commands us to rescue our neighbor who is 1.00
00:48:06.120 being unjustly led away to death. Number eight, aborted unborn children falls under Jesus's rebuke
00:48:12.620 of those who spurn children is inconvenient and unworthy of the Savior's attention. He is referring 0.99
00:48:17.060 to Matthew 19 there. And I can read that passage. Then children were brought to him, Jesus, that he
00:48:26.000 might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people. But Jesus said, let the little
00:48:30.400 children come to me and do not hinder them for two such belongs the kingdom of heaven. And he laid his
00:48:36.320 hands on them and went away. Number nine, it is the right of God, the maker to give and to take human
00:48:44.000 life. It is not our individual right to make this choice. Now, I would say that there's a caveat here
00:48:50.600 for the justification of the death penalty in cases of murder. But I am supposing probably that John
00:48:56.120 Piper is talking about innocent life here. Number 10, finally, saving faith in Jesus Christ
00:49:01.400 brings forgiveness of sins and cleansing of conscience and help through life and hope for
00:49:04.980 eternity. Surrounded by such omnipotent love, every follower of Jesus is free from the greed and fear
00:49:10.080 that might lure a person to forsake these truths in order to gain money or avoid reproach. So I think
00:49:16.160 those are 10 really good reasons. There's probably 100 more. But it all comes down to the fact that human
00:49:21.400 beings from conception onward are made in the image of God. And therefore, it is murder and
00:49:25.960 therefore a sin to murder them. And if there is anything, if there is anything that a government
00:49:32.960 should do, if there is any job that a government has, even the most limited libertarian government,
00:49:37.780 it is to protect the innocent person. It is to protect the innocent human being. It is to protect
00:49:45.820 their right, the most fundamental right not to be murdered inside the womb. So I'm proud of you
00:49:51.980 guys. Again, I just want to reiterate that. Keep on being bold. Courage begets courage. Politics matter
00:49:57.640 because people matter. Raise a respectful ruckus. This is the hill. If you want one hill, of course,
00:50:05.040 in addition to the hill, the gospel, if you want one hill to fight on, let this be it. It's a matter of
00:50:10.880 life and death. You're doing good work. Keep being bold. Keep being courageous. Keep being obedient.
00:50:17.260 We will be back here on on Monday. Who the heck knows what we're going to end up talking about. We
00:50:21.940 have rearranged a lot of stuff this week to continue talking about this important subject. And I truly
00:50:26.460 thank God for the opportunities that I've had over the past couple of weeks to talk about to talk
00:50:31.920 about this. I have thankfully I've had three media interviews and I had a speech that I gave just
00:50:37.240 yesterday. And I got to talk about this in every single situation. And I'm just, and on here, of
00:50:42.620 course, and I'm just thankful for the platform. I'm thankful for the ability to talk about it.
00:50:47.420 And I just praise the Lord for not just giving me a voice, but giving all of you a voice too. We're in
00:50:53.520 this together and I am so glad to partner with you in trying to protect the most vulnerable. Our fight
00:50:58.780 is worth it and expect pushback, but the pushback is worth it too. So thank you guys so much for
00:51:04.420 listening and for being here. We will be back here on Monday.