REPLAY： DEBATE： Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice Christian ｜ Guest： Brandan Robertson
Episode Stats
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Summary
Pro-choice pastor Brandon J.R. Robertson joins me to debate the controversial topic of abortion and the pro-choice movement. I'm so passionate about this topic that I had to record a fiery episode to get my voice heard.
Transcript
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Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Thursday. This episode is brought to you by our friends
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at Good Ranchers. American meat delivered right to your front door. Go to goodranchers.com
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slash Allie. That's goodranchers.com slash Allie. All right, guys, I've got an episode
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for you today, a fiery episode. I just recorded an interview, a debate with Brandon J. Robertson.
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He is a progressive. He calls himself a progressive Christian, a pastor of Metanoia Church. He calls
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himself a public theologian. Now, you might know his name and you might know his face and voice if
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you listen to this podcast or if you watch some of my videos on Instagram because I have reacted to
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a previous video that he did saying that Lazarus coming out of the tomb was Jesus calling gay
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people to come out of the closet. And so that's who we're talking to today. He is pro-choice.
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And so we are debating abortion. Now, I would call that pro-abortion. He refers to himself
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as pro-choice. And so we had a very, you guys know how passionate I am about this subject. And so it
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did get very intense at times. But I am very appreciative of Brandon being willing to come on
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because most people that we ask, that conservative shows in general, ask to debate, especially
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the subject, say no. He was very respectful. So guys, if you disagree with him, especially
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on YouTube, please leave respectful comments. There should be absolutely no ad hominem attacks.
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Be as respectful in your disagreement and your dialogue as possible. That's what we're looking
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for. We can be very passionate. You will hear in this conversation. I get extremely riled up about
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the arguments that were being made. And that's fine. That's fine. But we should resist any kind
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of personal attacks because it's good that we have this kind of dialogue. Before we get into the
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conversation, I just want to address that a lot of you guys have been sending me messages over the past
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few days just with the ridiculous posts that your friends are sharing that you didn't even realize that
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your friends were pro-choice. You didn't realize that they supported abortion and the legal right to
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abortion. And they have been posting about women's rights and how scary this is and how terrible this
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is over the past few days. And you have asked me several times to respond to the popular post that you
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are seeing circulated by Brene Brown, by Glennon Doyle, by several other even professing Christian
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influencers. Or you have pointed out that a lot of your favorite female Christian influencers who are
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so quick to talk about social justice or police brutality, even alleged police brutality or what's
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happening at the border have nothing to say about abortion, even though they call themselves pro-life.
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And unfortunately, I have not been able to respond to every single argument out there, every single
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post that you guys have sent me and every single message over the past few days. This reminds me a lot
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of June of 2020, when a lot of your friends were posting things about race and police and social
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justice that were simply not backed up either by biblical theology or by facts and data. And you guys
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were just asking me for help for arguments for clarity and insanity, because it kind of can feel like
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we're just going crazy when it feels like we are in the minority. I just want to encourage you guys with
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a few things. And I posted this on Instagram, I'll say it again here. In every conversation that you have
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with someone, what you can do if you don't know what to say, if you've never heard that argument
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before, just bring it back to the baby, bring it back to what an abortion is. Every story that you
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hear, every anecdote that you're offered, every argument, however nuanced and complex it is, bring
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it back to, but why is that a justification for killing a human being? Now, what you will often hear,
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and you'll hear that, I don't want to give too much away, but you'll hear a lot of this conversation
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in today's discussion. What is a human? When does life begin? And look, science says conception. And so
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the question is, when does someone get rights? And if it's any time after conception, it becomes
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arbitrary, right? And arbitrary assignment of rights to certain groups of people based on the whims and
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desires of people in power have been the mark of every human rights atrocity from slavery to genocide
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for all of history. And so just go back to the baby, go back to this innocent human life that is being
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victimized, go back to what the abortion procedure entails, which we have discussed so much. I will link some
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of my most popular abortion episodes in the description of this show. I've done, we've done so many, so many.
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So you can just look up relatable abortion wherever you listen to your podcast or on YouTube. They will
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all come up. We have addressed pretty much every argument under the sun when it comes to abortion.
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And the second thing that I want to say for all of you who are dealing with these conversations and
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dialogue and debates and just anger, maybe from some of your friends or family members who are on the
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other side of this, I just want to encourage you that you're doing a good job. I have gotten so many
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messages saying, you know, because you listen to a relatable podcast or because we've talked about
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this so much, or maybe you've listened to other pro-life advocates for a long time, you have felt
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the courage in a lot of cases for the first time to speak up on behalf of unborn children, to speak up
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on behalf of this vulnerable class of people. And I just want to commend you for your courage.
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I just want to commend you for your boldness. And I want to tell you that even if the person's mind
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didn't change who you messaged, who you talked to, who you texted with, that does not negate the
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significance of your obedience. All right? That does not negate or minimize in any way the significance
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of your obedience. You have no idea what seed that you have planted. You have no idea what God is going
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to do with that conversation. You have no idea what other conversations that person is having,
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how God is working in their heart and their mind. I mean, think about all of us and the different
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ways that we have changed our minds on theological or moral things since we became a Christian. Like
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there are probably some faulty things that all of us believed a few years ago that we no longer
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believe. And it was a process. It was because of conversations. It was because of things we read.
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It was because of God working on our hearts. So understand that when you're having the conversations,
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the arguments that you're having, that your job is to be obedient. Your job is to say what is true.
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Your job is to speak the truth in love about what abortion is. And God is sovereign over that person.
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Like God is in charge of changing that person's heart and mind. Ultimately, you are just playing a
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role. Your job is to be obedient. Your job is to be clear. Your job is to be courageous. Your job is to
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speak up for the person that is completely forgotten when it comes to pro-abortion arguments. And that
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is the child that is being victimized, killed, slaughtered, dismembered because of abortion.
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If the church cannot stand up for this, if this is not an issue that the church can care about that
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we can't be clear on, then we have completely dropped the ball. Because as we've talked about
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since the inception of Christianity, we have been a refuge for the most vulnerable, namely children,
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who have in a million different ways been victims of child sacrifice and exploitation almost since the
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beginning of human history. The church has to stand against that, including abortion. This is
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a biblical issue. This is a Genesis 1 issue that we are made in his image. As R.C. Sproul has said,
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and I've said many times, if he knows anything about God, it's that God hates abortion. And let me just
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say, before we get into the conversation, I always want to reiterate this. When I talk about just the
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wickedness and brutality of abortion, I just want to tell you that if you have had an abortion,
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if you are thinking about an abortion right now, don't do this alone. I know it might feel lonely.
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You feel like your shame is crushing you, your fear, your anxiety, whatever, your guilt that is just
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tearing you apart on the inside because you're thinking about this or have already done this.
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Listen, you are no worse than any other sinner on earth. All right. You are no less of a candidate
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for God's grace and forgiveness and mercy and compassion than anyone else. Ephesians 2 says,
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we are all dead in sin apart from Christ. There are not different levels of dead. We are all dead
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in sin apart from Christ. If you have had an abortion and it is a secret that has been weighing on your
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heart, you need to go to a pro-life pregnancy center. You need to go to someone within your
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church. You need to go to a trusted Christian friend and tell them, bring that to light. Let
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God heal you. Let God show you how good he is, how much he loves you, that he sent his son to die for
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that sin, to cover it up, to pay every single debt that we have, every single sin that we have
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committed. There is no sin too big, too secret, too dark, too grave that God cannot forgive,
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that Jesus's blood does not cover. There is hope for you and God can use your testimony, your life
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as a testament to his grace and to help people and to show people who he is, what he's done for you,
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and to save the lives of other unborn children and to help women who are considering the same
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thing that you have done. And if you are a woman who is pregnant, you don't know how you're going to
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do it. Maybe you're considering an abortion. There are people to help you. I want you to go to your
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local pro-life pregnancy center. You can look up pregnancy resource center in your area. I'll try
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to find a link that shows where these pregnancy resource centers exist. Message me if you can. I
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pray to God that I will see it and I will connect you to the right people. That would not be the first
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time that that has happened behind the scenes. There will be no shame or judgment in our conversation.
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I just want you to know that you are not alone. You are not alone and there are options for you
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and we will help you however we can. And so I just want to make sure that we have that. And look,
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if you are someone who is pro-choice or you are someone who considers yourself pro-abortion or maybe
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personally pro-life or politically pro-abortion, I hope that you will go back and listen to some
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abortion episodes that we've had or some of the conversation that we're about to have today and
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that you would reconsider your position. And remember that these are people made in the image
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of God that we're talking about and we're talking about legally murdering them. This is a matter of
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life and death and there's not really a question of which side Christians should be on. Of course,
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my guest today, he disagrees and we will get into that fiery disagreement in a second,
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but I just kind of wanted to give some context and a precursor for all of that.
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Brandon, thank you so much for joining us. And like I said, before the camera started rolling for
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being willing to dialogue across the aisle about this important subject. So first,
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I'm just going to open it up to you. If you could just briefly kind of summarize why you consider
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yourself pro-choice, why you believe that abortion should be a legal option for women.
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Yeah, I think abortion is a morally complex issue. And one thing that I always have said about
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abortion is that I don't know any progressive person that wants to see abortion increased.
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We all want to see it decreased. I think the question is about how we do that. And so I believe
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that there are many instances in which women should have the right to access abortion care. There are
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many instances, both from a faith perspective historically and from modern scientific perspective,
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when about why women should have access to abortions. And so I think overturning Roe v. Wade
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is an attempt to completely ban abortion in many states across this country. And that's a net negative
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that results in, we know statistically, women doing harm to themselves because they can't access
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healthy abortions. You can't ban legal abortion or you can't ban abortion. You can only ban legal
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abortions. And so my whole point is I want to see abortions made available. And then through
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comprehensive sex education, through contraception, through other means, we can work on reducing
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abortions together. But I think overturning Roe v. Wade and banning abortion altogether
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is just not an effective way to deal with this issue.
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Okay, so there's a lot in there that I want to address. First, I do think that it is incorrect to
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say that there is no one on the progressive side that believes that abortion is good. There was an
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article, a kind of infamous article, at least from my perspective, in New York Magazine,
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which is a very mainstream outlet in 2019 titled Abortion is a Moral Good. I've testified before
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Congress and I heard the women next to me who consider themselves reproductive justice advocates
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who talk about not just that abortion is a necessary evil, but that it is actually good for society.
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It is good for women, especially economically. There's an organization called Shout Your Abortion,
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which has been touted by people like Oprah, that is trying to de-stigmatize abortion. So yes,
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there are many people on the progressive side that are not actually interested in reducing
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abortion. This whole trope of safe, legal and rare, it might have been something that was popular in
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the Democratic Party 10, 15 years ago, even by the current president of the United States.
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That is not the current mission or the platform or the idea that is predominantly
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perpetuated on the left side. It is that abortion should be accessible without apology for any reason
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through nine months and subsidized by the taxpayer. So let's start there. That is the current position
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of the Democratic Party, that abortion is not evil, that it doesn't necessarily need to be reduced,
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but that it just needs to be accessed and even free.
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So I disagree. I think that what I think there are definitely extremes on both sides. I think there
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are extreme pro-life and pro-choice people that I, as a Christian minister, would disagree with.
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However, I do think the vast majority of Americans, the 70 percent that support the right to access
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abortion, want to see abortions decreased through these other means that I've named and that Democrats
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and progressives have been naming for many years. And I do think, yeah, you're right. Sure,
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there are people on the extremes who want to just say abortions for everyone up to nine months.
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I think that is a minority position. And I don't think you could find in the Democratic platform where
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that would be explicitly endorsed by any mainstream Democratic Party platform.
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I actually think it would be very different or it'd be very difficult to find a mainstream Democrat
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who today would say, here's what I believe should be the limit on abortion. Really, what you hear
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is that, well, it should just be a choice. I mean, this is the legislation that we're seeing in California,
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that we're seeing in New Jersey, that we're seeing in Maryland. We are actually seeing the
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decriminalization of fatal negligence of babies even after they're born and if they survive an abortion.
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I mean, you saw the Born Alive Survivors Act that Republicans in the Senate tried to pass a couple
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years ago and no Democrats voted yes on it. This was simply saying that doctors should be required
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to provide life-saving care to babies who survived an abortion. OK, so that's not even limiting an abortion.
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No Democrat voted yes on that. So it is a mainstream extremist position on the left.
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I'm not saying you represent it, but it is a mainstream position on the left that there should
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be absolutely no limits to abortion. So I just think that you're wrong, that no progressives think
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that there should be, you know, no limits to abortion. That is the mainstream position today.
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I didn't say no progressives. And of course, I'm not saying no progressives. I say, by and large,
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most progressives that I know of would say that about 20 weeks is the general limit on when we
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would talk about when an abortion can take place. And that's based on viability. That's based on what
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we know scientifically, viability of the fetus to be able to actually grow into a full-born baby.
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OK, well, let's wait. I want to hear more about that because 24 weeks is viability. Babies as young
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as 21 weeks have survived outside the womb. 24 weeks is actually viability where they have more than
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a 50 percent chance to survive outside the womb. So let's hear a little bit more about your
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reasoning. Why should abortion be allowed before 20 weeks, but not after? Well, simply because of
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viability, simply because they're not viable at 20 weeks. No, exactly. So the moral question here
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for me as a pastor is, when does life begin? And this is the question that Christians and people
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of all faith have been debating for thousands of years. In different traditions, there are different
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answers to this question. I think scientifically, we can say today up to 24 weeks is when a fetus
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becomes viable. So I think that time frame between 20 to 24 weeks is the time that we
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then can start talking about restrictions on abortion. I do think there are instances when
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the mother's life is at risk that we have to talk more broadly about this. This is where
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it gets morally complex. But I think abortion, like so many moral issues, we want to make this
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just black and white. It either is completely legal for everyone or it's completely banned for
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everyone. And I think these are highly individualized situations and it doesn't do good
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for our polarization. It doesn't do good for the health of anyone in our country when we simply make
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this black and white, in or out, good or bad, because it's not that simple.
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So human beings, we become human beings technically, scientifically, at the moment of conception. That's
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when we have our unique DNA. Now, listen, what you are arguing is, and a lot of people have argued it,
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you're right. Different traditions say different things. The argument is not whether a person is a
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human is a human at conception. We have everything that we need and just need time in order to develop
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into a baby that is able to survive outside the womb. We are all human beings at conception. The
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question is that you are bringing up is when does a human being become a person? When does a human being
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get rights? That is really the debate that you are raising. There is no question in embryology or
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biology when a human being is a human being. I mean, if you have ever seen a baby in a first
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trimester sonogram, that's a baby. That is a baby. That's not just a blob. That is a baby with not
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just a heart and a brain and ribs and lungs and fingers and toes moving and kicking and teeth that
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you can see and lungs that are developing. I mean, you see a fully formed human being at just 10 weeks
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gestation inside the womb. And so why? Why do you say that that clearly human being that we can see,
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why is that not a human? Who decided that? Why all the sudden at 20 weeks gestation does that person
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become a human? Like, when did that happen? And why do you have the authority to say that they're not
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a human before that? I've never claimed to have any authority on this issue. I'm speaking for my
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you do because you believe that people should be able to kill that human being before that. So why?
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Because it's not a human being. I don't think any modern science would say that
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just when a baby is conceived, that that is now a human being. That is a potential life. I will
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give you that. It's alive. If it's not alive, then the woman isn't pregnant. Then the woman has had,
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what happens in a miscarriage if that human being is not alive in the womb?
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Viability is the standard by which we know a fetus can become a fully alive human being.
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They are fully alive. I know that you've never been pregnant. I know that the left is confused
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about whether men or women can actually carry a child, but that human being is alive. You can feel
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that baby kicking at 16 weeks. You can see the baby in the sonogram moving and kicking around. They can
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recognize their mother's voice before the time you say that they are an actual human being. Science does
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tell us they're a human being. You are saying that some human beings don't have rights. That is what
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modern science says. Yours is a superstitious philosophical position, not a scientific one.
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Well, I am primarily a pastor and theologian. So yes, I'm going to talk from a theological and
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philosophical perspective primarily. Okay. Give me the theological support for a baby all of a sudden
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becoming a human at 20 weeks. The earliest Jewish tradition in the Hebrew Bible says that a person
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doesn't become a person until first breath. Now, I reject that. But here's the thing. There is
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ancient tradition. There is ancient religious tradition. We would even say there's ancient
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Judeo-Christian tradition that has disagreed about when exactly life begins. And that is the complex
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moral question. So I think it's important to go with what the science actually says. I've never read
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any scientific report in all my studies of abortion over the past eight to 10 years that I've been
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talking about this topic that says when a baby is conceived, that that is a human being. I don't think any
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science. What else is it? Okay. Okay. Here. What else is it? If it's not a human being,
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is it a summer squash? Is it a Tervis tumbler? No, but that doesn't actually exist. We're not
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potential. We're not potential. That doesn't even make sense. Okay. Tell me then what happens in a
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miscarriage. That's a potential human life that was ended. That's a horrible. A potential human life
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that was ended. Do you not hear that that doesn't make any sense? A potential human life can't exist
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because potential means it doesn't exist yet. Potential by definition means that it does not
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exist yet. So a potential something cannot end. It has to exist for it to end. It has to live for
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it to die. That's a completely illogical argument. Potential can be... Let's break it down. Let's
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break it down. Tell me how something that does not exist ceases to exist. I didn't say it doesn't
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exist. I said it has the potential to exist and you can stop the potential of that life from becoming
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real. But it does exist or else it can't die. The potential ends, the potential for that fetus
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to become a fully... So when a woman is pregnant, she's not actually pregnant with anything. When
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she sees in the ultrasound at eight weeks that beating heart, that's a potential? Potential
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what? A potential what? Potential human life. Then what is it at the time you can't... If you see
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something, if something tangibly exists, this is not a potential... This is not a potential
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microphone. This is an actual microphone. When you put a seed in the ground, is it a tree or is
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it a potential tree? It is a potential tree. This is how growth... Listen, it's not just a seed. It's
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not just a seed that we're talking about. We are talking about all of the cells, all of the cells
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that are necessary to grow into a fully formed baby. But it is a human being at conception. You
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simply believe that it is okay to kill certain human beings because they're not big enough yet.
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That is the debate. There's no scientific debate about whether or not a human is a human at
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conception. The whole debate is whether or not that human being has rights. And you believe
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that some human beings don't have rights. That's what you believe.
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But as a Christian, I think that what you're doing is unethical by jumping the gun and taking words
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that I'm not saying and making the words that sound good to your audience. A potential human life is a
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potential human life. I think scientifically, I stand with the majority of the science today. I'm very
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confident in that. And again, I'm not... My primary objective is to simply say we want to see abortions
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reduced. And the way we're going to do that is not by banning abortions. We can get into the
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technical conversation, but it's a complex moral conversation that's been going on in our country
00:23:21.520
for a very long time. And there are not clear answers. I want to talk about what is the best
00:23:26.160
way to ensure that women stay healthy, to ensure that our country continues to move forward in a way
00:23:31.960
that protects everyone, including the least vulnerable. And I don't think that is through
00:23:35.720
banning and criminalizing abortion, which is what a number of these Republican states want to do if
00:23:41.200
Roe v. Wade is overturned. And that will... We know statistically that that will cause great harm to
00:23:47.520
women and that will cause great harm to many people across the country, disproportionately affecting
00:23:51.540
communities of color and communities that are already disadvantaged in our society.
00:23:56.540
Well, unfortunately, people of color are already disproportionately affected by abortion. In New
00:24:02.280
York City, several years in a row, more black babies were aborted than born. A highly disproportionate
00:24:08.980
number of black babies are aborted every year. And of course, that goes back to the history and the
00:24:13.060
origins of Planned Parenthood, which was started by a white supremacist eugenicist. It's carrying on that
00:24:18.020
legacy today by disproportionately killing unborn children. And so if you want to talk about harm,
00:24:23.760
from our perspective, if you want to talk about harm, if you want to talk about danger,
00:24:27.900
like we can talk about poisoning and dismembering and purposely start stopping the heartbeat of living
00:24:35.380
human beings while they are in the womb. And if you just want to focus on post-viability abortions,
00:24:42.380
unfortunately, that happens at least 10,000 times a year. These are brutal procedures. Really,
00:24:47.620
from conception onward, abortion is a brutal, violent procedure of human beings.
00:24:53.760
That are made in the image of God. So if you want to talk about danger, if you want to talk about
00:24:58.100
violence, if you want to talk about things that are harming, like let's talk about the abortion
00:25:03.240
procedure, which is killing people, which I just can't find in all of my study of scripture,
00:25:08.500
that the God who made us in our mother's womb fearfully and wonderfully and purposely with specificity,
00:25:15.980
that the Jesus who invited the children to come to him, that the God who says in Jeremiah 1,
00:25:21.420
that before he formed us in our womb, that he knew us. I cannot find anywhere in Leviticus when God calls
00:25:29.640
for the death penalty of the Israelites who were sacrificing their children to Molech. I cannot
00:25:34.760
find anywhere in scripture that that God who purposely creates us, who made us all in his image,
00:25:40.960
who hates the shedding of innocent blood. I cannot find anywhere in scripture that there would be any
00:25:46.620
justification for killing, for example, a 19 and a half week baby, but not a 20 week baby. That's
00:25:53.880
arbitrary. And it has been that arbitrary assignment of personhood and rights has been the logical
00:26:00.500
justification for every single dehumanization and genocide throughout history. There is nowhere
00:26:07.840
in scripture that would do anything but condemn it.
00:26:10.620
You're simply incorrect. Scientifically, we know up to the moment of viability,
00:26:15.040
that thing that you're calling a baby is not yet a baby. I fundamentally disagree.
00:26:18.360
It is a baby. It is a baby. You have never, maybe one day when there is a scientific development
00:26:24.340
to where you can carry a child and you look at the sonogram and you see that child inside of you,
00:26:30.700
there's no difference. There's no difference between a 19 and a half week baby and a 20 week baby.
00:26:35.480
That is a human being that has been kicking the walls of your uterus for several weeks at that
00:26:40.520
point. They don't suddenly become a baby. That is a superstitious, unscientific view that is not
00:26:46.760
backed by embryology or any biological knowledge of fetal development at all. You have given in
00:26:52.180
to a dogmatic, superstitious view of human life. It is arbitrary. Your view is arbitrary.
00:26:59.260
The leading organizations in our country like the CDC. Cite it for me. And with us. I can cite
00:27:07.240
things for you. We have, let me pull up. Up to 23 weeks, the CDC says that is when the moment of
00:27:15.420
viability is. Viability. Yes. Viability is not the same thing as humanity. And you just said that you
00:27:20.640
are for abortion only until 20 weeks. 20 weeks is a viability. So why? Because up to that point,
00:27:27.700
it is just a potential human life. Why? Why 20 weeks? Why 20 weeks? 20 weeks is not viability. So
00:27:33.000
why? The CDC says 23 weeks. Logically, that's when it becomes fully able to live outside. Not 20
00:27:40.060
weeks. Babies at 20 weeks cannot live outside the womb. So why are you saying that? Why are you saying?
00:27:45.320
Three weeks. I just quoted 23 weeks from the CDC. Earlier you said 20. So now we're a little bit more
00:27:51.860
radical. Okay. So now 23 weeks. Only when a baby can survive outside the womb. And so people who,
00:27:59.080
for example, outside of the womb, who are entirely dependent on a machine to live, who are not able
00:28:05.460
to survive without the help of other people, are those people, should we be able to legally murder
00:28:10.240
them too? I'm just trying to figure out your definition or your standard of what humanity is,
00:28:14.940
because you haven't been able to cite the science on it.
00:28:17.700
I have actually. You're bringing in external arguments to emotionalize this, which is the
00:28:21.640
problem with this entire debate. It's called logic and you haven't been able to support it.
00:28:25.480
The CDC says that viability starts at 23 weeks, not humanity. Tell me, cite the scientific literature
00:28:31.060
that says humanity starts at 23 weeks. Both extremes want to make this a hyper emotional
00:28:36.220
argument. I'm not willing to do that. I believe this is a complex moral issue. I'm going to continue
00:28:40.640
to stand with the millions of people, the majority of people in our country who believe that abortion
00:28:46.600
should be able to be accessed in order to protect both the health of the mother and a lot of these,
00:28:52.580
a lot of abortions are taking place, their general health practices. This is to be for the well-being
00:28:58.260
of the mother for people. The point is, I think the emotionalization of this argument is not helping us
00:29:07.120
in this country move forward in any way. I think if we overturn Roe versus Wade, I think we are going to
00:29:12.700
see drastically negative consequences. We're going to see not abortion end. We're going to see legal
00:29:18.140
abortion end. And that's going to result in people doing things that are going to harm themselves
00:29:22.120
and be very unhealthy for them because they're going to find alternative means to get access to
00:29:28.020
abortion. The way we decrease abortion is through increased sexual education, increased contraceptives,
00:29:33.860
increased women's health. That is what we need to do. We've seen that over the past decade. We've seen
00:29:39.180
abortions decrease under such policies. If we overturn Roe versus Wade, we can only expect that
00:29:44.000
that abortion numbers are actually going to increase, just not in the legal ways. And it's
00:29:48.900
going to put undue burden on women. This is not the best for our country. This is not the direction we
00:29:54.020
should be heading. And that's why I'm opposing this action, this potential draft opinion by Justice
00:30:00.500
Aligo. Okay, let me pause for a second because they're telling me two things. That one, your phone is
00:30:04.900
shaking or your tape, your tape, you might have like your hands on your table. So it might be shaking
00:30:08.640
to Skype because it does this. It is blocking. Like, I can't hear you if you're interjecting
00:30:14.560
on what I'm saying. It's blocking it. So do you have headphones just so it doesn't seem like we're
00:30:19.840
trying to silence you? It's okay. Yeah. Give me 10 seconds. That's fine. Pulling in the old
00:30:29.240
fashioned iPhone headphones. Let's see. Those are the best ones. So that's totally fine.
00:30:34.380
Gotcha. According to the Guttmacher Institute, which you probably know is a pro-choice, pro-abortion
00:30:48.480
research institute, they actually say that they cannot find a causal relationship between some of
00:30:54.320
the progressive policies that you're talking about and a reduction in abortion. Now, to be fair, they
00:30:59.100
also say that they can't find a causal relationship between restrictions on abortion and reducing
00:31:04.780
abortion. However, a lot of the time the argument is made that, okay, when Democrats are president, then
00:31:10.580
you see abortion rates lower. So that must mean that democratic policies are reducing abortions. For
00:31:15.640
example, when Barack Obama was president, the abortion rate was lower than I believe when George W. Bush
00:31:21.340
was president. However, if you look a little bit more closely at that, presidents are not the ones
00:31:28.280
that are making abortion policy. The state legislatures are making abortion policy. And when Barack Obama was
00:31:34.620
president, Republicans dominated state legislatures and passed more anti-abortion bills than they had
00:31:39.820
in all of history. And so like if you want to surmise that maybe there's a causal relationship between
00:31:45.420
one thing and the abortion rate, you would have to look at the fact that the actual people who are
00:31:51.460
making abortion policy, which is not the president, which is typically not the federal government,
00:31:55.860
their state governments, they were passing anti-abortion pro-life legislation while Barack Obama
00:32:00.740
was president. So I just find this idea that, oh, we need all these progressive policies and then
00:32:06.500
we'll reduce abortion. I understand the assumption that that would be the case, but I don't think there's
00:32:12.700
very much, much research that is supporting that. In addition, even if we did have discussions
00:32:17.680
about, okay, what policies can we put in place that will help women, that will help children,
00:32:22.260
that will kind of take away the felt need of abortion, I still don't think that is a justification
00:32:27.400
for taking away the rights of pre-born children simply because they're defenseless, simply because
00:32:33.040
they're not politically useful, simply because they're young or small or exist inside the womb.
00:32:37.600
That's not a legal justification for killing anyone, including babies inside the womb.
00:32:43.820
But you know, that's a straw man. Nobody is saying that we're, people don't support abortion
00:32:48.040
because we don't think these potential lives are politically useful. My question for you is,
00:32:52.720
do you support Roe v. Wade completely being overturned and abortion being banned, made illegal
00:32:59.440
Oh, so you don't. Oh, okay. So that is not what happens when Roe v. Wade is overturned. So
00:33:05.420
no, but it is what's happening in a lot of these states that have trigger laws.
00:33:08.180
You just asked if I, you just asked if Roe v. Wade is overturned and abortion is banned across
00:33:14.800
the board, but that's not going to happen. That's not what overturning Roe v. Wade does.
00:33:17.780
I'm asking you what you believe. I'm asking you what you want to see.
00:33:20.620
Yes, I definitely want to see Roe v. Wade overturned. 100% want to see Roe v. Wade overturned.
00:33:24.440
No, do you want to see abortion banned across the country? Yes or no?
00:33:26.800
Yes, I believe that we should be able to legally recognize the rights of unborn children because
00:33:34.140
You're not answering the question. Should abortion be illegal across the country under all circumstances?
00:33:40.080
Yeah. Abortion should be illegal because these are human beings. They're human beings.
00:33:45.140
I think that's an insane policy. I think it's out of sync with almost all Christian theology.
00:33:49.300
It's insane to kill children simply because you have decided that at one week in gestation,
00:33:55.520
completely arbitrarily, that they all of a sudden become human beings and all of a sudden become
00:34:00.460
people with rights just because we say so. Yes, absolutely. Now, listen, I know a lot of people
00:34:07.000
are saying, oh, well, this is going to ban the treatment of miscarriages. This is going to ban
00:34:10.940
the treatment of ectopic pregnancies. This is going to stop women whose lives are at risk from receiving
00:34:15.940
care. That's not true. In all of those situations, I understand a baby has to be removed. That is
00:34:21.460
different than purposely stopping the heartbeat of and poisoning a child. I do understand that there
00:34:27.340
are some complex questions and some hard decisions that have to be made if the physical life of a
00:34:31.860
woman is truly at risk with the continuation of their pregnancy. Now, any time after viability,
00:34:37.280
as we've already talked about, is 23 weeks. That baby has to be removed anyway, so that baby should
00:34:41.720
be delivered, not purposely killed. The baby's coming out anyway. Now, before that, I do believe
00:34:47.300
everything should be done to try to protect the life of both the mother and the child. If the baby
00:34:53.320
sadly, tragically has to be removed, that's what has to happen. But we're talking about the intentional
00:34:58.260
killing of a child. And I always think that that is wrong. I always think that that should be illegal.
00:35:04.280
Yes, I've said that many times, so I'm certainly not afraid to say that. And our fundamental
00:35:09.040
disagreement and the fundamental disagreement with my side of the aisle on this argument is that
00:35:13.460
potential life is not life. And I think you're going to keep pushing back on that. And I think
00:35:17.880
we fundamentally disagree. And I think we stand on the side of the science. And that's where this
00:35:22.700
disagreement comes down to. Yeah, and I just really want you to cite the science that says a human is
00:35:26.140
not a human until 20 weeks. And cite the science that says a viability is the science.
00:35:31.420
Viability is not humanity. Viability is not the same thing as you. No, it's not. No, it is not.
00:35:36.100
Because then, again, you could apply that outside of the womb. Viability means that they can survive
00:35:40.720
without the help of the mother outside of the womb. There are plenty of people who cannot survive
00:35:47.480
without the help of, for example, a machine. And so your standard is arbitrary. Your standard is
00:35:54.080
arbitrary. Those are two very different things. Those are two very different things. Tell me how.
00:35:58.220
People that need to survive with a machine is very different than an infant. We know the skin.
00:36:02.800
Again, the skin of a fetus before viability can barely survive being touched outside of the womb.
00:36:09.760
Okay. It takes the chances of that potential life becoming an actual life are almost none.
00:36:16.480
We know that to be true. They're alive in the womb. What does it mean?
00:36:20.820
It's not. What is life? What does alive mean? What does alive mean?
00:36:24.700
They're alive from the point of conception because, again, otherwise a miscarriage or an abortion
00:36:28.960
wouldn't do anything. No, you cannot logically explain how a potential thing. No, you can't.
00:36:35.340
You haven't been able to do it. How something that potentially exists can then stop existing.
00:36:40.140
If it potentially exists, then it never existed.
00:36:42.400
It's not existence. No, that's not true. Exactly. And so it can't cease to exist.
00:36:45.660
It's growing. So a miscarriage and abortion is nothing. This is how biology works.
00:36:48.300
No. I'm sorry that you're denying biology. Yes. When growth, when anything grows biologically,
00:36:52.940
it is a potential until it becomes the full thing. We can use an argument that, as we did earlier,
00:36:58.220
that is not quite as charged. Take any biological plant that is growing. As it's growing,
00:37:03.340
it is not the full thing. A tree is not a tree until it's fully grown into a tree.
00:37:07.300
It is a potential for that. No, listen. There's a seed. There's a sapling. There are different
00:37:12.160
stages of being a tree. It's never less of a tree. There are different stages of human life. There
00:37:18.720
are different stages of an organism's development. In the same way that an infant is not an adult,
00:37:27.060
it's still a human being. But we call an infant a child in the same way that we call a fetus a baby.
00:37:32.160
It's just a different stage of human development.
00:37:34.940
So the ambiguity that's being highlighted. Just because a person is less developed
00:37:39.820
does not mean that they are not as much of a human as someone who is more developed. That's
00:37:44.940
basically your argument. And again, my argument is that it's not a human at all.
00:37:49.600
It's not a human at all. There's no science backing that. I'm telling you, dude, there's no
00:37:52.780
science backing that. There is no science backing your perspective either. Yes, there is.
00:37:55.640
No, there isn't. Okay, cite it. Cite it, man. Cite your science, man.
00:37:59.960
Cite it because every piece of embryology. No, you can't just say every piece of embryology.
00:38:06.840
You don't have any science to back your perspective. The question is not when human
00:38:12.120
life begins. That is not an argument. Yes, it is. That is the precise question. The debate is over
00:38:16.420
personhood. For pastors, for theologians, it is about when life begins. That is the question I'm
00:38:21.540
interested in. You're avoiding that because you want to be pro-choice, because you want to be pro-abortion.
00:38:27.840
Be pro-choice. I didn't start off saying I want to be pro-choice. I started off studying my
00:38:32.260
tradition, studying scripture, talking to women in my congregation. And I arrived at this conclusion
00:38:36.800
because of the science, because of my own philosophical reasoning and theological reasoning.
00:38:40.680
This is what I believe is the right thing for our country. This is what I believe based on all the
00:38:44.580
evidence I've seen and read. This is the perspective I believe most helps the most people in our country
00:38:49.740
that protects the rights of women. And that's where I'm going to stand.
00:38:53.720
Okay. Well, I don't know if I'm going to be able to change your position. I still think that your
00:38:59.400
position is extremely, is extremely arbitrary, especially like, I believe that it's conception,
00:39:05.420
but of course there are people who believe, okay, well, it's when the heart beats and that's about
00:39:09.280
18 days after conception. There are some people believe that there it's when there's brain waves,
00:39:14.340
which is about six weeks and two days after conception, there's independent.
00:39:17.200
All arbitrary. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Oh, you make such a good point. It is all completely
00:39:23.940
arbitrary unless you start when life actually begins. With viability. No, unless you start at
00:39:29.160
conception, but not all babies are viable at 24 weeks. See, so it's arbitrary unless you start when
00:39:34.700
life actually begins, which is conception. That's when we have separate DNA, distinct DNA. That is when,
00:39:41.060
by the way, gender is decided. XX or XY at the moment of conception. That's sex, not gender,
00:39:46.440
but we can have another conversation about that. Oh, yes, we can.
00:39:49.880
Can I just say one thing before, before this comes to an end? I think the one thing that I am most
00:39:54.840
passionate about as a follower of Jesus Christ is that we need to be able to have the ability to have
00:39:58.960
these conversations without demonizing the other side. And since posting my TikTok video on your
00:40:04.280
feed asking for interviews yesterday, the vitriol from your side, and I acknowledge there's vitriol on
00:40:09.940
my side, has been nonstop. This is not the way we're going to move forward on this conversation.
00:40:14.720
Demonizing each other is not the way we're going to move forward on this conversation.
00:40:18.380
People on my side aren't supporting being pro-choice because we hate babies. That's all
00:40:24.380
that's demonizing. That's untrue. And we need to be able to have reasonable, rational conversations,
00:40:29.820
not emotional conversations about this. And then perhaps we can change each other's hearts and
00:40:34.380
minds. Then perhaps we can actually make progress in this country. And I think the demonization that
00:40:38.580
takes place, again, on both sides is completely unhelpful and is preventing our nation from leaning
00:40:44.540
in to the best values that we have and to actually making progress in whatever direction on these
00:40:50.960
Now, I would agree with you there. And I do. And I just want to tell anyone who is listening
00:40:54.980
to this, watching this, I'm looking at you, YouTube commenters, because YouTube is a totally
00:40:59.060
different field. It seems like that there should absolutely be no hate. There can be passionate
00:41:04.480
disagreement, which I think is a great thing. But any kind of personal attacks is wrong and never
00:41:08.840
something that I would support. Yes, I do see a lot. And I know we have our own perspectives
00:41:14.300
and bias. Of course, from my perspective, I see like the vitriol and just threats to people's
00:41:19.860
lives coming from the pro-choice side. When I posted the other day that the person who leaked
00:41:25.120
the Roe v. Wade decision that they want to see the lives of conservative justices being threatened
00:41:32.360
and their children, because that's what's going to happen. What I got from blue checkmark,
00:41:35.720
journalists, journalists were saying, good, they shouldn't have made this decision and
00:41:40.020
they shouldn't have done it. Good. I'm not saying there's no vitriol on the anti-abortion
00:41:43.740
side, but man, like you're talking about demonization. I am talking, I am looking at threats to people's
00:41:49.620
lives because they are pro-life that I agree with. I agree. That's a problem.
00:41:53.280
That's indefensible. And I've gotten many tweets over the past day that says my mom should have
00:41:56.900
aborted me because of my perspective. It's terrible. Yes. So it's, we need to stop that. We need to be
00:42:01.900
able to have a reasonable conversation. And I do appreciate you willing to,
00:42:05.720
dialogue across the divide about this. So thank you.
00:42:08.100
Well, for the record, I am glad that you are here and I'm glad that your mom chose life.
00:42:15.140
I am glad that you are a person made in the image of God who I believe, and as much as we disagree
00:42:20.660
on theology and on the gospel, you know, I believe that Jesus died for our sins and by grace through
00:42:28.820
faith, we can be made alive through him. And gosh, I really do hope and pray that he changes your heart
00:42:34.760
and your mind on this. Maybe not, but maybe we can have another conversation in the future about some
00:42:40.040
more fundamental disagreements that we have because I enjoyed it.
00:42:50.380
All right, guys, I told you it was going to be a fiery, a fiery conversation. Again,
00:43:01.600
I appreciate him coming on and I hope that you appreciated that conversation. Maybe I'll have
00:43:05.540
him back. We've got some very fundamental disagreements about the Bible. For example,
00:43:09.660
he doesn't believe that the Bible is the word of God. I would say that that is a very fundamental
00:43:14.340
disagreement that we have. And so it'd be really interesting to have him back on. As I said in the
00:43:20.660
beginning, it's rare to have a progressive willing to debate these issues with a conservative. And so
00:43:26.200
maybe this can be some kind of series that we have. And I appreciate you guys listening as well.
00:43:32.740
I just kind of want to reiterate because, you know, I wasn't expecting that we would kind of get stuck
00:43:37.140
on the when life begins. I kind of just, he has made the argument in the past that God has given
00:43:43.360
people autonomy, women autonomy over their bodies, and that that is sacred and they get to decide
00:43:48.820
what to do with their bodies. And so I kind of thought we would get more into that. And we
00:43:52.760
didn't. What I would say to that argument is that your autonomy, your liberty, your rights,
00:43:58.480
your choices end where another person's right to life begins. And so there are a lot of things that
00:44:04.080
you have autonomy over as a human being. There are a lot of things that you can do with your body.
00:44:08.160
You can do anything with your body, but you can't use your body to punch me. That's assault.
00:44:11.440
And you will get in trouble because of that. And so we understand this principle that your autonomy
00:44:15.840
has limits depending on how it infringes upon the rights, not just the desires, but the rights of
00:44:23.520
someone else. And so we didn't get into that argument, but that's what I would say to that.
00:44:29.620
Again, once again, it's that principle of bringing it back to the humanity of the life of the child and
00:44:34.520
reminding people what abortion actually is. And by the way, again, open an embryology textbook,
00:44:42.360
you will find when human life begins. I personally still think he is confused about what the debate is
00:44:48.480
actually over. The debate is over personhood. That's a philosophical debate, not a scientific
00:44:55.280
debate over when humanity begins. And as you saw, he was unable or unwilling to answer that.
00:45:01.340
As appreciative as I am of his willingness to at least try and talk to me about it.
00:45:09.880
I do just want to end. I thought John Piper has given really good, just 10 solid reasons why
00:45:16.640
abortion is wrong. And I appreciate his insight into a lot of these subjects, in particular
00:45:22.900
abortion. So 10 reasons why it is wrong to take the life of unborn children. Number one,
00:45:28.840
God commanded thou shalt not murder, Exodus 20, 13. Two, the destruction of conceived human life,
00:45:34.140
whether embryonic, fetal, or viable, is an assault on the unique person forming work of God.
00:45:38.960
Three, aborting unborn humans falls under the repeated biblical ban against shedding
00:45:43.420
innocent blood. And I didn't see a reference there, but I did write it down. And the command that he is
00:45:51.200
talking about there is Jeremiah 22, 16 through 17. But you have eyes and heart only for your dishonest
00:45:58.380
gain. God is judging Judah here for shedding innocent blood and for practicing oppression
00:46:03.960
and violence. And so this absolutely goes under the category of oppression and violence.
00:46:09.620
The Bible frequently expresses the high priority. Number four, God puts on the protection and provision
00:46:15.820
of vindication of the weakest and most helpless and most victimized members of the community.
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Certainly the most helpless members of our community are these babies inside the womb. And I also wanted
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to get into with Brandon, what an abortion procedure at 20 weeks, 21 weeks, pre-viability, 22 weeks,
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what that entails and how violent it is and how that squirming, moving baby is brutally killed at that
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point in gestation. I mean, there's just no question of whether or not this is evil.
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Number five, John Piper says, by judging difficult and even tragic human life as a worse evil than
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taking life, abortion is contradict the widespread biblical teaching that God loves to show his
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gracious power through suffering and not just by helping people avoid suffering. So he is speaking to
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that point that you often hear on the pro-choice sidewall that their life might be hard or that they might be
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unwanted or they might end up in foster care or they might be poor or whatever justification that
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they give. And he is saying that avoiding suffering in life is not the goal. It's not the goal and it's
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not a justification for killing someone. And he points out that God's mercy can work through a
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person's hardship and suffering. It's not an excuse to kill someone. Number six, this goes along with
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that. It is a sin of presumption, John Piper says, to justify abortion by taking comfort in the fact
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that all these little children will go to heaven or even be given full adult life in the resurrection.
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That's also what you hear, that these souls are just going back to God. So what's the problem with
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it? Well, you could argue then, then why don't you just murder everyone who is, that would be the
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justification for murdering anyone who you believe is going to heaven outside of the womb too. So that
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doesn't really hold up. Number seven, John Piper says, the Bible commands us to rescue our neighbor who is
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being unjustly led away to death. Number eight, aborted unborn children falls under Jesus's rebuke
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of those who spurn children is inconvenient and unworthy of the Savior's attention. He is referring
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to Matthew 19 there. And I can read that passage. Then children were brought to him, Jesus, that he
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might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people. But Jesus said, let the little
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children come to me and do not hinder them for two such belongs the kingdom of heaven. And he laid his
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hands on them and went away. Number nine, it is the right of God, the maker to give and to take human
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life. It is not our individual right to make this choice. Now, I would say that there's a caveat here
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for the justification of the death penalty in cases of murder. But I am supposing probably that John
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Piper is talking about innocent life here. Number 10, finally, saving faith in Jesus Christ
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brings forgiveness of sins and cleansing of conscience and help through life and hope for
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eternity. Surrounded by such omnipotent love, every follower of Jesus is free from the greed and fear
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that might lure a person to forsake these truths in order to gain money or avoid reproach. So I think
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those are 10 really good reasons. There's probably 100 more. But it all comes down to the fact that human
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beings from conception onward are made in the image of God. And therefore, it is murder and
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therefore a sin to murder them. And if there is anything, if there is anything that a government
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should do, if there is any job that a government has, even the most limited libertarian government,
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it is to protect the innocent person. It is to protect the innocent human being. It is to protect
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their right, the most fundamental right not to be murdered inside the womb. So I'm proud of you
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guys. Again, I just want to reiterate that. Keep on being bold. Courage begets courage. Politics matter
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because people matter. Raise a respectful ruckus. This is the hill. If you want one hill, of course,
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in addition to the hill, the gospel, if you want one hill to fight on, let this be it. It's a matter of
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life and death. You're doing good work. Keep being bold. Keep being courageous. Keep being obedient.
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We will be back here on on Monday. Who the heck knows what we're going to end up talking about. We
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have rearranged a lot of stuff this week to continue talking about this important subject. And I truly
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thank God for the opportunities that I've had over the past couple of weeks to talk about to talk
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about this. I have thankfully I've had three media interviews and I had a speech that I gave just
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yesterday. And I got to talk about this in every single situation. And I'm just, and on here, of
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course, and I'm just thankful for the platform. I'm thankful for the ability to talk about it.
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And I just praise the Lord for not just giving me a voice, but giving all of you a voice too. We're in
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this together and I am so glad to partner with you in trying to protect the most vulnerable. Our fight
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is worth it and expect pushback, but the pushback is worth it too. So thank you guys so much for
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listening and for being here. We will be back here on Monday.