Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - REPLAY ｜ Ex-Witch Reveals LA’s Dark World of Sex Cults and Blood Offerings ｜ Guest： Jac Marino Chen

00:00:00.000 We are playing a replay episode of a very popular episode of Relatable today because

00:00:07.160 the Relatable team is traveling to a very fun location to have a special exclusive interview

00:00:15.580 with Nicole Shanahan.

00:00:17.600 You'll remember that name because she was RFK Jr.'s running mate when he was running

00:00:22.620 for president.

00:00:23.520 She recently had a conversion experience.

00:00:26.240 She shared about her conversion to Christianity and her baptism on social media a few weeks

00:00:32.180 ago, and I knew I had to try to talk to her.

00:00:34.820 She was gracious enough to meet with us, and that episode will be out tomorrow.

00:00:40.880 Until then, enjoy this replay of Relatable.

00:00:47.740 Jack Marino Chen came out of the occult and met Christ, and her testimony from the time

00:00:54.520 she was a child and feeling like she was connected to these transcendent entities that she thought

00:01:00.080 were aliens into the New Age and then into the occult and then out of that very dark world

00:01:06.040 and into the light of the gospel.

00:01:09.160 You are going to be so encouraged by the details of her story and just reminded of the power

00:01:15.300 of Jesus to save us from absolutely anything.

00:01:19.500 You are never too far gone, and Jack's testimony is such a good example of that powerful truth.

00:01:29.140 Today's episode of Relatable is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:01:31.840 Go to GoodRanchers.com.

00:01:33.000 Use code ALI at checkout.

00:01:34.100 That's GoodRanchers.com, code ALI.

00:01:45.940 Jack, thanks so much for joining us.

00:01:47.960 If you could tell everyone who you are.

00:01:50.420 Well, my name is Jack, and I grew up thinking I was a Christian, was sexually abused as a 0.95

00:01:56.920 child.

00:01:57.580 That left me very confused in a lot of ways and suppressing that.

00:02:02.640 And then I had a supernatural experience with what I originally thought were angels, but then

00:02:08.700 later learned about aliens and really grasped onto that as an identity and found an escape

00:02:14.120 from stuffing down the abuse in these supernatural experiences.

00:02:18.300 And then that led to escaping myself through alcohol, drugs, self-harm.

00:02:25.800 And I ended up getting in very unhealthy relationships, abusive relationships, and was introduced more

00:02:35.440 to new age ideology.

00:02:37.420 In high school, I read the book The Secret, which opened my eyes to the law of attraction,

00:02:41.880 and it was very an exciting thought that I could control my reality.

00:02:46.560 And another bad relationship led me deeper into the new age until when that crumbled down

00:02:53.480 and I really had to be alone with myself.

00:02:55.480 I just thought, I really need to get control.

00:02:59.320 And I started being influenced by these entities, believing that I was led.

00:03:06.880 One thing led to another, led to another, until I joined an occult order called the Golden Dawn,

00:03:12.520 where we practiced ritual magic in a Freemason Lodge.

00:03:15.420 And it was there that Jesus Christ met me in that darkness and saved me.

00:03:22.440 And I've been sober now for coming up, or seven years, actually.

00:03:28.240 Wow.

00:03:28.680 Seven years, and I'm married.

00:03:30.900 And it's been amazing that I never thought that I would smile or laugh again in the deep

00:03:37.600 darkness that I was in.

00:03:38.700 And the Lord has completely redeemed my life.

00:03:41.540 Okay.

00:03:42.300 Let's back up to the beginning.

00:03:44.420 You said that you thought that you were a Christian when you were growing up.

00:03:49.260 And so what was the religious belief of your parents?

00:03:54.140 Well, we thought, I thought that we were Christians kind of like, you're American, you're just born

00:04:00.280 into it.

00:04:01.100 Yeah.

00:04:01.200 And so I went to a Methodist preschool.

00:04:03.900 I don't remember hearing the gospel, but then again, I was very young.

00:04:07.040 Yeah.

00:04:07.420 And my idea of Jesus was someone that you imagine when you're afraid.

00:04:11.720 Just a picture of a man that I would imagine.

00:04:14.800 And so I really didn't understand what it meant to be a Christian, but really thought that

00:04:19.300 I was.

00:04:21.120 And the sexual abuse happened at a very young age.

00:04:25.300 And I really stuffed it down and didn't want anyone to find out about it.

00:04:30.720 Was this a family member?

00:04:32.280 Yes.

00:04:33.100 Okay.

00:04:33.560 And how old were you?

00:04:35.040 It's hard to say.

00:04:36.020 My earliest memories are of the abuse, but for sure, when I was five, it can be.

00:04:43.800 I'm so sorry.

00:04:45.100 Thank you.

00:04:45.660 That's so, so young.

00:04:47.160 I mean, any age, it's tragic and a nightmare, but when you're five years old, you don't even

00:04:52.880 have the words, the mentality to wrap your mind around what's happening.

00:04:56.320 And of course, you don't have the power to defend yourself either.

00:05:00.180 Right, right.

00:05:00.960 And I definitely experienced that.

00:05:04.560 And when I was around seven, the person who abused me was caught abusing a toddler and

00:05:09.840 was sent away.

00:05:12.000 And I just told myself, if I never think about this again, I can just believe my lie that

00:05:17.820 this didn't happen.

00:05:18.500 I was so afraid of being caught or it being found out.

00:05:22.360 I didn't have the mental wherewithal really to understand what had happened.

00:05:26.720 And I felt a lot of guilt and shame.

00:05:28.640 You thought it was kind of your fault.

00:05:30.300 Exactly.

00:05:31.280 And did you talk to your parents about it?

00:05:33.040 No, I just totally denied it, said nothing ever happened, and really thought if I believed

00:05:39.380 that enough, I could create my own reality, you know, the Disney fairy tale kind of, I

00:05:43.520 can make my dreams come true.

00:05:45.200 And if I believe this, I can make that happen.

00:05:48.180 Yeah.

00:05:48.500 It was your way of escape.

00:05:49.780 Exactly.

00:05:50.640 Yeah.

00:05:51.280 And it was around that same age of seven that I first had that supernatural experience.

00:05:56.680 Just seeing lights in the sky that felt very, not just like lights, but these familiar,

00:06:03.920 personal, powerful presences.

00:06:06.200 And my only way of understanding that was, oh, they must be angels.

00:06:10.940 But then to learn about aliens, I think I really latched onto that because I believe that they

00:06:17.160 saw me, they knew me, they accepted me, and they knew what had happened to me.

00:06:22.000 And so you were outside.

00:06:24.240 Yes.

00:06:24.500 And it was just one moment where you were outside and you looked up and you saw these

00:06:28.740 lights.

00:06:29.420 You thought, these are angels communicating with me, letting me know that I'm okay and

00:06:34.620 that they know what has happened to me.

00:06:36.280 Yes.

00:06:36.720 I was looking out over a canyon and it was just, it's kind of hard to put in words, but

00:06:41.240 it felt so powerful.

00:06:42.820 Like the most powerful thing I'd experienced.

00:06:44.880 Like out-of-body experience almost.

00:06:46.680 Yes.

00:06:47.600 And I really, I truly made that my identity because it was so exciting for me and I felt

00:06:53.340 special to them.

00:06:54.900 And so I held on to that experience and ones that I continued having that were similar than

00:07:00.980 this fascination with aliens throughout my life.

00:07:03.820 So you said that you were seven at this time and that became your identity and that then you

00:07:09.060 learned about aliens.

00:07:10.340 So tell me what that looked like at such a young age.

00:07:13.360 How did that become your identity?

00:07:15.220 That's a great question.

00:07:16.680 I really started enjoying kind of being different and I started feeling like I was more influenced

00:07:24.660 towards the more devious things, things that I knew were wrong.

00:07:28.180 There was a lot of confusion that comes with childhood sexual abuse.

00:07:32.500 I gravitated towards friends who I later learned were also being abused in many cases, but I

00:07:39.620 started teaching my friends and they'd teach me what was happening with them sexually. 0.53

00:07:45.040 And so there was just so much guilt and shame and anger and things stuck, pushed down, that these

00:07:54.420 escapes, these powerful moments of experience as that child gave me something to hope in, to look

00:08:00.760 forward to.

00:08:01.380 And that very small amount that I knew about Christianity, I started giving away to embrace 0.99

00:08:07.360 a worldview that had a place for these beings who were, I was special to them is what I received

00:08:14.400 from that.

00:08:15.120 And that meant something so much to me in a world where I felt like no one really knew who I was.

00:08:22.160 And you had access to the internet at this point.

00:08:24.820 Were you using the internet to try to figure out what these powers were in your life?

00:08:30.440 Yeah.

00:08:30.820 I didn't really get access to the internet until later on.

00:08:34.760 Um, but once I did definitely, um, the more really it was reading things or hear, hearing

00:08:41.160 other people talk about UFOs or gray aliens, that would kind of give me the little bit

00:08:47.280 here and there that I latched onto with those experiences.

00:08:50.500 Yeah.

00:08:50.780 And when did you learn about aliens and how did you come to feel that these lights that

00:08:55.560 you had interacted with or that you felt like you interacted with were aliens, at least

00:09:00.640 according to your belief that.

00:09:01.620 Yeah, I, it was a family member who was also very influenced with the UFO idea that I was

00:09:09.780 very close to.

00:09:10.920 And so it just kind of made sense to me, like something clicked that the whole angel thing

00:09:17.400 was just a vague idea.

00:09:19.040 The only context that I had for it, but the idea of aliens visiting and there's this mystery

00:09:23.420 behind it and it's alluring and exciting, uh, really drew me in.

00:09:27.540 Um, okay.

00:09:29.020 And talk a little bit more about how that became your identity and kind of grew to be

00:09:33.960 such a dominant part of your life when you were, I'm guessing preteen teenage years.

00:09:37.740 I just really thought I was, uh, special to them.

00:09:42.380 And so I would kind of seek out those experiences.

00:09:44.380 I made my own Ouija boards, um, really wanting to have more contact with these beings again,

00:09:50.500 which I really thought were my friends.

00:09:51.980 Other people had imaginary friends.

00:09:53.560 I didn't get that because with these beings, I felt like I, they were actual experience.

00:09:59.380 Yeah.

00:09:59.520 And I would try to have imaginary friends, but it was just different.

00:10:02.320 So to me, these were my friends who saw me, who knew me, who loved me.

00:10:05.920 Um, and so growing up again, I continued trying to escape myself.

00:10:09.400 I had developed an eating disorder, um, in eighth grade.

00:10:13.280 I was self-harming.

00:10:14.380 I was just really becoming devious.

00:10:18.280 I really was.

00:10:19.300 And when I got to high school, I wanted to fit in with people.

00:10:24.760 I really just kept making other things, my idol.

00:10:27.520 I truly didn't know who I was inside.

00:10:29.860 I didn't, the truth is like, I didn't know who God was.

00:10:34.440 I didn't know that in that pain of my abuse and what was going on and the confusion and

00:10:40.320 the things that I was doing, that there was a good God that I could run to and that Jesus

00:10:45.460 isn't just someone to imagine, but that he is this perfect savior who went to the cross

00:10:50.680 and he was tempted as, as I am and he was tempted as we are yet without sin and that

00:10:56.600 on the cross, he died bearing God's wrath and my sin in my place, died, rose again, and

00:11:05.240 now has ascended to the right hand of God as the one mediator between God and man.

00:11:08.480 Like I had no understanding that there was a savior that I could go to, that I could run

00:11:12.820 to, that I could cast my anxieties on because he cares for me.

00:11:16.180 There was no one to go to.

00:11:17.480 I thought I was afraid of anyone finding out who I was.

00:11:19.900 So these beings knowing me, in addition to escaping myself through any means possible

00:11:27.840 and even in idolatrous, very confused friendships.

00:11:32.620 And then I realized that if I didn't start drinking and doing drugs, I would lose those

00:11:37.420 friendships because that's what they were doing.

00:11:39.440 I forgot to mention that my dad, who was very close to my mom, separated from him when

00:11:46.440 I was five because he had a meth addiction and an alcohol addiction.

00:11:52.020 And so it was unsafe for us to be with him.

00:11:54.380 And so that was very hard for me.

00:11:56.460 You had a lot of turbulence.

00:11:57.700 Yes.

00:11:57.940 And a lot of confusion about who you were, who was your caretaker, like who really cared

00:12:03.700 about you.

00:12:04.380 And you're just trying to find your identity.

00:12:06.220 So it kind of, I mean, it makes sense to me that a child as young as seven would latch

00:12:11.220 on to something that they feel is a power bigger than them and that is steady and sees them

00:12:18.200 as special because that's how you wanted to feel.

00:12:21.120 And you wanted to feel known without having to tell the people around you because of the

00:12:25.480 guilt that you felt like you bore.

00:12:28.040 Um, you talked about trying to communicate to these entities through like a Ouija board.

00:12:33.900 What other ways were you trying to communicate to them and have a relationship with them?

00:12:39.460 Yeah.

00:12:40.220 Um, it was really when I got older, it was more when I was young.

00:12:43.760 I, I was kind of afraid at some points.

00:12:46.840 It felt like they were visiting me.

00:12:49.040 I wasn't doing a whole lot of reaching out to them, but in high school, starting to take

00:12:55.280 on these more new age beliefs without knowing that that was what it was with the book, The

00:13:01.060 Secret and Law of Attraction and, oh, the universe is so big.

00:13:04.500 Wow.

00:13:04.720 This is really making sense for what I've experienced and diving into that.

00:13:09.140 And then once I, I was in a, um, relationship that was very confusing, I believed this person

00:13:17.060 was my twin flame, actually more than my twin flame.

00:13:20.880 He taught me that we lived hundreds of lives and, um, in, we were each other and that in

00:13:28.620 some of them, we sadly were sent on different quests, but we were the same being ultimately.

00:13:35.940 Yeah.

00:13:36.240 And so.

00:13:36.860 Is this teenage years or early twenties?

00:13:38.780 This is late teens.

00:13:41.120 Okay.

00:13:41.560 Yes.

00:13:41.900 And, um, um, that relationship was very, uh, painful, but all that to say, being more

00:13:49.740 introduced to these new age ideologies, I started using, uh, now the drugs I was specifically

00:13:56.360 taking to contact these entities.

00:13:59.120 I was getting into psychedelic drugs to do that.

00:14:02.260 I was going into trances using binaural beats.

00:14:05.540 Um, what's that?

00:14:06.760 It's kind of like these different frequencies or ways that you can trigger your mind allegedly

00:14:14.140 to go into altered states of consciousness, similar to a guided meditation, but just to

00:14:18.100 try to already get your mind somewhere else.

00:14:21.660 Um, and again, this was very alluring to me because it was escaping myself now in much

00:14:28.480 more powerful ways.

00:14:31.100 You know, you've talked about before that some of the friendships that you had had with,

00:14:35.800 I believe they're mostly girls, right?

00:14:37.700 As, um, as a young person that they were also being sexually abused and you felt from

00:14:43.720 an early age that you also had to be sexual and that it caused a lot of sexual confusion

00:14:49.160 in your life, which really plays a part in this escapism and seeking to have communication

00:14:55.160 with the other side.

00:14:56.040 Can you talk about some of that confusion about your own identity?

00:14:59.960 Yeah.

00:15:00.640 I, I was really, shame was such a huge part, shame and guilt.

00:15:05.800 I felt so much shame and so much guilt and there is some confusion around like, what

00:15:11.720 is true?

00:15:13.080 What is sexual orientation confusion?

00:15:16.360 What is just lust?

00:15:17.520 What is, and in my case, I think, especially later on, there was just a general depravity

00:15:23.820 and misunderstanding about what sexuality is.

00:15:26.780 But there, um, I would go through these friendships and just really hope that I'd never be found

00:15:34.460 out, uh, and that you had been sexually abused or sexually abused and that there had been

00:15:40.420 sexual things going on in these friendships.

00:15:42.700 Yeah.

00:15:43.040 Um, there was so much shame in, in that.

00:15:46.720 Yeah.

00:15:47.080 And I had a friendship where the person who was, I saw as a friend, but there had been

00:15:52.080 that, um, intimacy for lack of better words, started having feelings for me.

00:15:58.000 And that.

00:15:58.700 Oh, this is a girl.

00:15:59.520 This is a girl.

00:16:00.280 Mm-hmm.

00:16:00.560 And there's a lot of fear that, um, that, that being public would then expose to me.

00:16:08.420 Everything else.

00:16:08.880 Yeah, exactly.

00:16:09.560 Not just the one thing, but everything that I, you know, then people will really see me

00:16:14.220 and that was terrifying to think about.

00:16:16.540 And so that confusion and just pushing it down, um, really just confusion about sexuality

00:16:23.220 and, uh, all together who I am as, as a person was driving those confusions.

00:16:29.600 Yeah.

00:16:30.340 I mean, your first introduction to sexuality was so disordered.

00:16:34.160 Right.

00:16:34.720 And I mean, there's a lot of data out there that the earlier a child is introduced to

00:16:39.920 sex inappropriately, like inappropriately like that, the more likely they are to be confused

00:16:45.580 down the line about sexuality, attractions, lust.

00:16:49.220 I mean, disorder kind of breeds disorder.

00:16:51.900 Sin can breed sin.

00:16:53.300 And it's interesting that even though you didn't grow up in a traditional Christian home, that

00:16:57.260 you still had this feeling that this is not right.

00:17:00.900 Things are messed up inside of me.

00:17:02.820 You weren't seeking the savior to save you from those things yet, but you were seeking

00:17:06.540 some kind of salvation from them.

00:17:08.680 Yes.

00:17:09.220 And I think there was just this real false gospel being preached to me, although I wouldn't

00:17:13.640 have seen it then through these beings that was like, you are special.

00:17:16.880 You have a purpose and you can be, you know, liberated from this because we have this plan

00:17:22.640 for you was really enticing and exciting.

00:17:27.220 And I think that's why I found so much identity in it.

00:17:29.640 Yeah.

00:17:30.140 So you mentioned that you kind of got into the new age, the secret, the law of attraction.

00:17:35.560 Not everyone knows that book, The Secret.

00:17:37.660 I mean, it's very famous or maybe infamous.

00:17:41.260 Tell us a little bit about what that is and what revelations you felt that you had when

00:17:45.320 you were reading that, I think in your early 20s.

00:17:47.460 I actually read this in high school.

00:17:49.220 In high school.

00:17:50.060 Okay.

00:17:50.320 So was it right around that time of that really unhealthy relationship with the twin flame

00:17:54.280 guy?

00:17:54.760 This was one relationship before that and more, yeah, in a different abusive relationship.

00:18:00.740 But when I read that, it talks about basically you can make your dreams come true.

00:18:07.880 Your thoughts create your reality.

00:18:09.500 You actually have the power to create whatever life you want and you are the most important

00:18:15.100 being in the universe because you can manifest whatever life you want.

00:18:20.100 But it was very packaged like Barnes and Noble and not Barnes and Noble now, but packaged in

00:18:27.260 a way that it was palatable for many people.

00:18:30.300 It didn't appear occultic.

00:18:31.580 It didn't appear new age.

00:18:32.660 It was kind of self-empowerment and this is great.

00:18:34.960 And I really saw it that way.

00:18:37.640 It was interesting looking back, seeing on the first page now, it says, as above, so

00:18:43.780 below the emerald tablets of Thoth, who later in my story is the entity that I was following

00:18:49.600 that got me or that I believed was the entity that I was following that got me deep, deep

00:18:54.600 into the occult.

00:18:55.440 It's pure darkness.

00:18:56.360 And it's just hidden on the front page.

00:18:58.720 But again, it's sold as this very glittery, beautiful girl boss.

00:19:04.140 You can create your own life.

00:19:05.380 Isn't that great?

00:19:06.580 Yes.

00:19:07.040 Oh my goodness.

00:19:07.740 Okay.

00:19:08.080 So that's how that started.

00:19:09.600 Law of attraction.

00:19:10.460 Basically, you attract what you are.

00:19:12.900 You attract what you say.

00:19:14.100 You can manifest your success by just declaring it.

00:19:17.460 And did you believe that at the time?

00:19:19.180 I did.

00:19:19.640 Which is interesting because when it doesn't work, it's your fault because you must have

00:19:25.680 thought a negative thought somewhere along the line.

00:19:27.540 So it really does become this thing that puts you in bondage.

00:19:30.980 But it sounded very freeing that, hey, I really don't like my life.

00:19:35.240 I mean, there were good parts of it, but generally I didn't.

00:19:38.560 And I can actually make my life be whatever it is because I have the power to be my own God

00:19:43.300 and create my own reality.

00:19:44.500 It really goes back to Genesis and just promising that the power of knowing the difference between

00:19:51.720 the knowledge of good and evil, eating from that tree will give Eve godlike powers that 0.98

00:19:57.960 will free her and then obviously led to bondage.

00:20:02.780 So you got into this relationship with someone who said that you were twin flames and you kind

00:20:09.280 of already explained it.

00:20:10.600 But basically what that means that there is like this internal flame between you and this

00:20:16.580 other person that was always meant to be.

00:20:20.440 It was eternal, as you said, like lived a lot of different lives.

00:20:23.560 And it really doesn't matter if my understanding is correct if like twin flames could be married

00:20:28.720 to different people, but they're just in the wrong relationship.

00:20:31.640 And if you meet, you have to get together because it is almost this external, powerful,

00:20:36.760 transcendent force that is pulling you together.

00:20:38.980 Yeah, you're like a soul tie.

00:20:41.440 Yes.

00:20:42.080 Yeah, you're exactly right.

00:20:43.420 That's how it's explained and really what I believed.

00:20:46.700 And it was so ultimately I had I made this man my God, like he became my religion, teaching

00:20:54.360 me about the new age.

00:20:55.620 I believed that we were each other.

00:20:57.640 The first time that I saw him, I felt that same familiar feeling that I saw that I felt when

00:21:02.660 I first saw those entities.

00:21:03.760 And so it was this deep connection of in a world of a lot of darkness and pain in my world.

00:21:10.540 It was like, here's this person with color and with answers and with beautiful things

00:21:15.200 to say that I hadn't heard before.

00:21:16.780 And I really dove into that until I became just a follower of him.

00:21:24.100 And he started to teach me.

00:21:26.220 It's with him that I started trying psychedelic drugs, getting more.

00:21:30.520 And we went to new age festivals similar to Burning Man, but on smaller scales where I'm

00:21:35.720 learning more about sexual liberation and polyamory and all these different new age ideas and practices

00:21:43.900 like charging my crystals in the moonlight.

00:21:47.260 And and I, again, having no not knowing who I was, finding my identity in this new thing

00:21:53.140 that promised me power to create my own reality.

00:21:56.020 And ultimately, because I was serving this person so much to work off karma and become closer

00:22:04.460 together.

00:22:05.460 Yeah.

00:22:05.800 And sorry to back up a little bit, because I believe this was the previous relationship,

00:22:09.680 but I'm interested in how this played a role.

00:22:12.080 The person that you had dated before this that was also an abusive relationship, he was

00:22:15.720 Native American.

00:22:16.680 Yes.

00:22:16.960 And with that, I'm guessing there came, you know, a set of beliefs that he had that also

00:22:23.460 influenced kind of your paganism and your belief in the new age.

00:22:27.620 Is that right?

00:22:28.100 Yes.

00:22:29.660 Yeah.

00:22:30.220 My main, quote unquote, good memories of with him that weren't violent or staying up

00:22:36.440 all night on drugs on the reservation, talking about aliens and ancestors and elements and just

00:22:44.560 different things that I was learning and being taught.

00:22:47.700 And again, I still what's amazing is I still would have said I was a Christian even in high

00:22:51.540 school through drug abuse, alcohol abuse, living for myself, living in sin.

00:22:55.740 And I would have said I was a Christian because I really didn't know what that meant.

00:22:59.260 And if someone said, if someone confronted me, which by God's grace, a couple of people

00:23:03.280 did, I would have thought, you don't, you can't judge my heart.

00:23:06.240 You don't know me.

00:23:08.820 But in this relationship, I still would have said I was a Christian, but the reality was

00:23:12.760 I never knew Christ.

00:23:14.360 But also the little truth that I did know, I was giving more and more a way to embrace

00:23:19.440 these ideas that, you know, it's judgmental to not embrace this new Native American idea

00:23:27.020 because they, you know, maybe they were here first or just starting to think that maybe

00:23:32.400 everything's right.

00:23:33.500 I'm just need to look at it the right way.

00:23:36.420 And tell me how you kind of graduated, if that's even the right word, or got into what

00:23:41.960 is the occult?

00:23:42.860 Because the occult and the new age aren't necessarily the same things, right?

00:23:46.260 If you're able to explain that.

00:23:47.520 Yeah, I personally would say that the occult is where the new age roots are.

00:23:53.540 If you follow the new age, you'll find the occult.

00:23:56.580 And when the relationship with this twin, quote unquote, twin flame ended, it was very

00:24:03.220 awful.

00:24:05.020 I'm sure.

00:24:05.940 You felt like your whole self was wrapped up in this person.

00:24:08.920 Yes, yes.

00:24:10.100 And I had just moved to Hollywood and gotten a studio apartment to be closer to him.

00:24:14.760 And then I got the call that it was over, but he was coming back for me.

00:24:19.340 And I was left with.

00:24:21.260 In it like a spiritual sense or like, like I'm breaking up with you, but because we're

00:24:27.340 twin flames, we'll find our way back to each other kind of thing.

00:24:30.260 Yes.

00:24:31.480 It was very confusing.

00:24:33.340 Um, and it was, it was both the spiritual and the physical, I'm coming back for you.

00:24:39.020 Just need to make something of myself.

00:24:40.560 You should, you know, keep doing drugs to wait for me so that it'll pass faster.

00:24:44.740 And just these, these things, but I really believed them to the extent that now that I'm

00:24:48.900 married, to be honest, uh, or I guess I should say to be completely vulnerable, it was really

00:24:55.200 hard for me to take that step because there was still this lie that I'd harbored for years.

00:25:00.740 Like he's coming back for me.

00:25:02.680 So there was a lot of, it was hard for you to take the step of marriage because, you know,

00:25:07.940 Satan had just embedded that twin flame idea in your mind.

00:25:11.340 Wow.

00:25:11.700 That's such, such bondage.

00:25:13.320 Yes.

00:25:13.600 And so graduating when, when it did end being, I mean, I really snapped, which I already was

00:25:21.500 pretty deep in it, but I snapped thinking I, at this time, my dad was homeless on the streets

00:25:28.140 in LA and when it would rain, it would just destroy me thinking about him because I was

00:25:31.880 his responsible party and there's a lot of pain and this isn't working by God's grace.

00:25:38.500 When I was in the new age and at these festivals, you know, there would be Tantra yoga tents and

00:25:45.260 basically like pagan orgy kind of things going on.

00:25:49.200 And the idea that you need to embrace your sexual liberation, sexual freedom.

00:25:54.360 And there were just some things that I couldn't do.

00:25:57.800 There was a restraint there that I just felt so wrong to me that I couldn't do it.

00:26:04.180 And that made me really upset because I thought that my Christian dogma, Christian dogma was

00:26:09.480 holding me back from being truly free and truly liberated.

00:26:12.140 So I'd be so upset with myself that I couldn't be who my twin flame wanted me to be or who

00:26:18.300 I thought I would fit in more with these people if I could be.

00:26:21.900 But when the relationship ended, I just thought I need to, ultimately, I wanted to sear my conscience.

00:26:28.680 I wanted to push it all down and just go in and find where the real power was because

00:26:32.780 manifesting my reality wasn't working out so well.

00:26:36.040 And so that really looked like me locking myself in the studio apartment, using drugs,

00:26:42.920 spending all of my time researching whatever I was led to in that twin flame relationship.

00:26:49.340 I had really believed that these entities wanted to see through my eyes, not thinking of that

00:26:55.040 as possession, just thinking, you know, I've known these entities.

00:26:58.860 They're my friends.

00:26:59.940 They're so familiar throughout childhood and I'm just special and they just want to use

00:27:04.120 my body and see through my eyes.

00:27:06.060 And it's interesting because if you had just dropped in there, it sounds so clearly bad.

00:27:13.780 But having been my whole life kind of working up to this, it just made the next logical step

00:27:19.460 made sense.

00:27:20.420 And so diving into all that then now, just diving into it more, I got into something called lucid

00:27:28.180 dreaming, where I was practicing waking up in my dreams so that I could control my dreams

00:27:33.660 and go on these astral planes and meet my spirit guides and learn more knowledge and something

00:27:39.180 called-

00:27:39.480 By yourself mostly?

00:27:40.680 Yes.

00:27:41.340 I was very isolated, would have a hard time having conversations with people.

00:27:47.280 I was not in my right mind at all.

00:27:50.120 Yeah.

00:27:51.000 Something called-

00:27:52.060 Oh, go ahead.

00:27:52.520 I'm so sorry.

00:27:52.960 No, go ahead.

00:27:53.600 Go ahead.

00:27:54.100 Something called astral projection, also doing similar kind of things.

00:27:58.320 And I also was led to this entity called Thoth and something called the Emerald Tablets

00:28:03.500 of Thoth.

00:28:03.960 And I'd strung a clothesline across my studio apartment and painted the words on it.

00:28:09.160 And I was just so obsessed trying to find the secret knowledge and the next key to unlock

00:28:14.680 the powers to the universe.

00:28:15.840 And you said that these entities that you still thought were aliens at this point, they wanted

00:28:24.100 to see through your eyes.

00:28:25.720 You felt like they were telling you that?

00:28:27.720 Yeah.

00:28:28.420 And did that happen?

00:28:30.960 Did you ever have a moment where you felt like, okay, they're in?

00:28:35.740 Fleeting moments.

00:28:36.880 I think that sometimes, especially in meditative states, I would feel more connected with them

00:28:44.020 in that way.

00:28:44.700 But there was, as I got deeper and deeper into it, I remember looking at my eyes in the

00:28:52.300 mirror, like just meeting my gaze and just my blood running cold with fear of like, I do not

00:28:57.700 recognize whatever is behind my eyes.

00:28:59.640 That's not me.

00:29:00.560 But still thinking, I need to go into the darkness and shine the light of knowledge and all these

00:29:08.260 words that I'd learned to feel the fear and do it anyway.

00:29:11.440 So I kept pressing on in that.

00:29:14.260 And yeah, there were, I started channeling.

00:29:17.600 Uh, I, I would write things like I'm an alien watching through the eyes of a girl and just

00:29:22.960 very dark things, uh, really getting more and more depraved as well.

00:29:28.680 Yeah.

00:29:29.000 And then what led you into the occult?

00:29:32.440 I continued.

00:29:34.360 It was, it's kind of strange, but it was like every, the next thing would glow physically

00:29:41.160 glow because I was so out of my mind.

00:29:43.400 Um, I didn't know what was physical reality and what was just, uh, me seeing things, you

00:29:50.900 know, that weren't really there.

00:29:53.040 And so things would glow.

00:29:55.080 I was walking down the street and I saw a Freemason lodge and that glowed.

00:29:59.400 So that got me more into the, uh, Masonic texts, Kabbalistic texts.

00:30:04.380 And I don't know, we, I don't really know what Freemason is or what Masonic texts are.

00:30:09.520 So can you give us just a brief explainer?

00:30:12.300 Yeah.

00:30:12.740 So Freemasonry, um, I, I get a lot of pushback when I talk about Freemasonry because Freemasonry

00:30:18.720 is for men.

00:30:20.540 Uh, they do have other orders that I actually reached out to this Freemason lodge.

00:30:25.140 It's, it's, uh, I think they would call themselves more of a fraternity, like a brotherhood.

00:30:29.980 Um, but it is a secret society.

00:30:32.100 Uh, ultimately I think that it has a lot to do with idolatry and Gnosticism, uh, but secret

00:30:38.700 society.

00:30:39.180 And when I reached out to them, they recommended me to the Eastern star, which is their order

00:30:44.060 for women that also goes into very secret, um, secret teachings, uh, there. 1.00

00:30:50.400 But the order that I ended up getting involved in called the Golden Dawn was started by three

00:30:56.880 master Masons and, uh, brought a lot of Masonic ideas and symbolism because Freemasonry can

00:31:04.560 be very ritualistic and theatrical.

00:31:06.240 Also brought in Rosicrucianism, which is another, uh, philosophy kind of taking, it's an esoteric

00:31:13.860 philosophy.

00:31:14.740 So I've heard it said that what Rosicrucians kind of think about or use as a philosophy,

00:31:21.240 but the Golden Dawn would practice.

00:31:24.080 And so I ended up being led to the Golden Dawn, which took a lot of, really, I ended up being

00:31:31.500 led there because I saw these tarot cards that were glowing and they were the, ended up being

00:31:35.580 the Thoth tarot deck by a man named Alistair Crowley.

00:31:38.760 Um, and he's known as the most wicked man to have ever lived.

00:31:42.320 He is, uh, he actually popularized a lot of wicked things here in America.

00:31:48.600 Um, but like, like what?

00:31:51.140 Um, well, bringing the occult over here, but Alistair Crowley's, uh, form of magic and was

00:32:00.500 so gross, uh, a lot to do with the belief that sexual fluids have more magical power. 0.85

00:32:07.440 So, uh, is this sex magic? 0.83

00:32:09.580 This would be, um, but he would even take that to the nth degree, uh, including children,

00:32:16.540 very, very awful things that, uh, are, are said about him.

00:32:21.720 And he brought that here to the United States.

00:32:24.640 Yeah.

00:32:24.980 At least popularized it.

00:32:26.580 Yeah.

00:32:26.880 Um, and I believe he was on the Beatles cover, Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.

00:32:33.240 And he's, he was very, uh, pushed by the music industry at one point.

00:32:39.180 So, so Alistair Crowley, you said, that's his name.

00:32:43.740 You saw these tarot cards or tarot cards.

00:32:46.960 Where did you see them?

00:32:48.500 I was just at a metaphysical shop.

00:32:50.400 Okay.

00:32:50.800 You saw them.

00:32:51.740 You felt like they started glowing.

00:32:53.200 As you said, you thought that these entities were kind of showing you the direction to go,

00:32:58.720 the things to buy, what to focus on based on glowing.

00:33:01.600 You, you saw the Freemasonry Lodge, which was glowing.

00:33:05.560 So you felt like, okay, I got to go that direction.

00:33:07.940 That's how you found the golden dawn, a cult.

00:33:10.200 One thing led to another.

00:33:11.380 And then you found these tarot cards, which you said were tarot cards of Thoth,

00:33:15.240 which was the entity that was at the beginning of that secret book.

00:33:19.100 Right.

00:33:19.360 Yes.

00:33:19.720 It feels like one of those weird, like.

00:33:21.300 No.

00:33:21.680 Yeah.

00:33:21.960 But I'm just making sure that everyone has it kind of mapped because yeah,

00:33:26.420 Satan uses these things and pieces them together and kind of like an upside down of what can be

00:33:33.880 like a beautiful testimony of redemption is also like a testimony of, of darkness for those that

00:33:39.340 he's trying to lead astray.

00:33:40.700 And so that's how all of those pieces kind of came together.

00:33:44.080 So you're in this metaphysical shop, you see these tarot cards, you feel like they're glowing. 0.99

00:33:48.260 They're created by this very, very evil, pedophilic, sexually predatory, so-called magician, 0.98

00:33:55.540 Alistair Crowley. 0.99

00:33:56.640 You buy the tarot cards.

00:33:58.360 Yes.

00:33:58.820 And then what happens from there?

00:34:00.520 Yeah.

00:34:00.960 I just spent almost all of my time trying to take the images into my psyche, trying to really

00:34:08.820 take this tarot deck in and started dreaming about them, started practicing tarot.

00:34:15.100 So, and from that deck and the Alistair Crowley information is how I learned about the Golden

00:34:21.500 Dawn really, how I got introduced and felt that definitely played a big part in me feeling

00:34:27.900 like this was the next step, was joining this Golden Dawn and Alistair Crowley was in the

00:34:33.140 Golden Dawn, the original Golden Dawn.

00:34:35.740 And so I, I really thought, okay, this is the most wicked man to ever live.

00:34:41.900 I, I tried to make my own justifications of what is good and what is evil and trying to

00:34:48.520 say, well, I, I was going to join the Eastern Star.

00:34:52.620 Um, I have family members that were involved in Freemasonry and that was one of the things

00:34:57.800 they were involved in.

00:34:58.500 So that sounds good, but their symbol is of an upside down pentagram.

00:35:02.180 So that, that's bad.

00:35:04.240 But the Golden Dawn has a, has a cross symbol in, uh, at least a cross involved in the symbol.

00:35:09.420 So that must be good, but I kept just, um, thinking that, that I, I just, it took me a

00:35:16.700 while and a lot of back and forth before really reaching out.

00:35:21.580 And I, there was an order in my area, the original Golden Dawn ended a long time ago,

00:35:26.940 but now there are people who have orders.

00:35:29.520 And I was living in LA at the time that had an order where they practiced the same magical

00:35:33.940 system.

00:35:34.880 And so reached out to them and a man asked me to meet him at a coffee shop in Silver Lake.

00:35:41.120 And when we started talking, everything that he was saying to me was exactly what I'd been

00:35:47.080 led to from astrology, Kabbalah, the, uh, Egyptian deities, uh, tarot, all these things

00:35:55.420 was exactly what I had been being led to.

00:35:58.580 So it was like, wow, this man's speaking my language.

00:36:00.420 I can actually have a conversation with this person.

00:36:03.080 Um, and I was really excited.

00:36:04.940 And the words like you were called to this, uh, were used.

00:36:08.300 So it just, it felt like I was about to get in on the secret club that my alien entities, 0.79

00:36:13.700 my friends had been preparing me for.

00:36:17.560 What were some other things that he was saying that resonated with you?

00:36:21.420 So it was really the way that he spoke in a very like deep, esoteric way, talking about

00:36:28.040 the great work.

00:36:28.860 I, I'd been practicing alchemy, which has to do with the great work.

00:36:32.880 Um, what's the great work?

00:36:34.500 It's kind of what they call the work of, um, of being in this magical order.

00:36:40.880 You're, you're doing the great work.

00:36:42.640 Alchemy is also called the great work and it has a lot to do with something called transmuting

00:36:47.040 where you're taking gross matter and it's being transmuted to gold, but more in a, your

00:36:53.360 soul allegedly is going from being on this lower level to you go through transmutation

00:36:59.400 until you become basically gold.

00:37:02.520 It's like demonic sanctification.

00:37:04.260 Yes.

00:37:04.920 Yes.

00:37:05.700 Okay.

00:37:05.960 Um, and so it was really exciting for someone to, to be talking about the things that I so

00:37:11.040 deeply believed was my next step.

00:37:13.420 This, so this is the moment that you felt finally all that I've been working toward that

00:37:20.300 I've been listening to all of the, even the drugs that I've been doing, the painting in

00:37:24.220 my apartment that has led me to this moment.

00:37:26.300 It felt like divine providence.

00:37:28.740 Yes.

00:37:29.140 And so what happened from there?

00:37:31.020 Um, I was asked to go to a Freemason Lodge to be initiated and I was so excited.

00:37:37.620 And, um, I remember I was listening to the soundtrack for Fantasmic on the way there because I felt

00:37:43.300 like all the sorcery and the themes in Disney, I finally understood what they meant and I

00:37:47.360 was going to go live it out, um, for real though.

00:37:50.840 And like, I, I truly wasn't afraid.

00:37:53.700 I was just excited and they had me, um, yeah, when I got there, there was a woman on the 0.99

00:37:59.900 top of the stairs waiting for me in a full black robe with a hood.

00:38:04.680 And, um,

00:38:05.300 Did that scare you at all or were you kind of used to that kind of imagery?

00:38:08.100 Yeah, I was, it made sense given all the things I'd been studying and pouring my life

00:38:13.820 into.

00:38:14.280 I wasn't working at the time other than, you know, DoorDash here and there.

00:38:17.460 I was being supported by my family.

00:38:18.920 So all my time went into obsessively studying these things.

00:38:23.040 Um, so it just made sense.

00:38:25.120 Uh, and I was put in a room.

00:38:28.660 I was also put in a black robe.

00:38:30.980 I had to wear red socks and I was told not so much to pray, but to meditate, to prepare

00:38:36.280 myself for this, for this ritual.

00:38:39.180 Um, and the ritual itself, I was hoodwinked, so I couldn't see.

00:38:44.660 And it was very dark.

00:38:47.000 A lot of it had to do with taking John 1, 5 out of context.

00:38:50.640 Um, the idea that you're going into the darkness to shine the light of knowledge in it, the secret

00:38:55.840 knowledge, um, a lot of, uh, symbolism to do with duality, darkness and light and ancient

00:39:03.560 Egyptian hermeticism.

00:39:05.080 And, um, there was a sword put to my neck, swearing that I would never share what I learned

00:39:11.900 a lot of, uh, scary, very scary.

00:39:15.560 I didn't think it was scary at the time.

00:39:17.460 You thought it was sacred.

00:39:18.460 Yes.

00:39:18.860 Thought it was serious.

00:39:19.720 Yes.

00:39:20.040 And I'd also been in a sorority where they're, you know, they're similar like theatrics and

00:39:24.260 don't tell anyone.

00:39:25.220 So I, I remember telling one of them like, oh, I'm not scared of, I went through something

00:39:29.480 similar.

00:39:30.360 Um, but to me, again, it made sense.

00:39:32.920 There was a heaviness to it.

00:39:34.380 Like it felt like you're saying sacred, but, but yeah, so I was initiated.

00:39:39.400 I took a lot of pride in thinking that I was again, special, had been called to this and

00:39:46.000 I continued going to the Masonic Lodge to do, uh, to practice, to learn.

00:39:53.160 Um, and there was a time where we spent like 12 hour days for a couple of days, all just

00:39:59.640 doing invocation rituals, sigils, um, learning hermetic magic.

00:40:06.220 And I would have still said I was a Christian, which is amazing.

00:40:11.280 I would bow down to a golden idol before entering this room.

00:40:16.560 I would, um, the, these invocations of these demonic entities were bowing my face down before

00:40:23.540 golden idols.

00:40:24.820 And we'd take communion.

00:40:26.440 It makes me emotional, but we'd take communion, um, or they call it Eucharist to Osiris, who's

00:40:33.480 an Egyptian deity, um, with bread and wine.

00:40:36.280 And I, I thought I was getting closer to Christ because that's what we were told, uh, we would

00:40:41.060 use the name Jesus Christ, but Jesus was someone that you become someone that you attain to.

00:40:45.980 I just thought I had a deeper understanding of what it meant to be Christian, but I was 0.91

00:40:49.440 worshiping demons and I was becoming more and more depraved sexually. 0.93

00:40:54.600 Um, and in every other way, my gender, uh, or not my gender, but my sexual identity. 0.74

00:41:01.200 I got involved in sex magic, um, which really came with it.

00:41:06.740 The, what my belief, which is taught that the height of sexual, uh, you know, pleasure

00:41:12.940 is a more powerful time to manifest.

00:41:15.340 So it was still the law of attraction.

00:41:17.280 It's just, if you go down to its core, how the original teaching is more so to practice

00:41:23.520 it.

00:41:24.220 Um, just absolutely wicked. 0.83

00:41:26.340 I, were they like orgies with people of all different kinds of genders?

00:41:31.020 I, I personally didn't partake in, in, um, in them with other people, but in my own, uh,

00:41:38.700 in my own practice, um, was practicing that.

00:41:42.540 So, because the thought is that like orgasm gives you greater access to the supernatural

00:41:49.300 and you can more effectively manifest what you want.

00:41:54.200 Yeah.

00:41:54.540 It's seen as a very powerful energy that at that point, if you hold in your mind, the

00:42:00.260 thing that you're trying to manifest that, that moment is the most powerful moment to

00:42:04.440 manifest that.

00:42:05.700 Also, I, I, I was very unhealthy from the drug use and all that.

00:42:09.300 So I didn't personally have a cycle, but I really wanted to, because the idea of menstrual

00:42:13.740 blood is seen as powerful, powerful for releasing and powerful blood in general, powerful for

00:42:20.140 magical practices.

00:42:21.360 So when I see people doing things like abortion rituals or, um, releasing, you know, seeing

00:42:28.580 it as a, as a practice, as a, something magical, it makes sense with the lies that I was believing

00:42:35.360 back then, which is so upsetting.

00:42:38.020 But when you really get into the occult and you see like the belief system regarding blood,

00:42:43.820 regarding sexual things, regarding duality and fluidity and, um, none of what I'm seeing

00:42:50.940 in the culture is surprising.

00:42:53.280 Talk a little bit more about that abortion ritual, because shockingly, I saw a post by

00:42:59.900 Cosmopolitan, um, on Instagram that was basically talking about abortion, like a satanic ritual.

00:43:07.340 And yeah, we have it up right there, um, satanic abortion ceremony. 1.00

00:43:11.620 We've actually seen the satanic temple try to carve out exceptions in states that have passed

00:43:19.740 pro-life legislation, carve out exceptions for religious freedom for them to say, well, it is

00:43:24.460 part of our religious freedom to sacrifice basically unborn babies.

00:43:28.520 And so you're saying that that whole thing doesn't surprise you because they see blood

00:43:35.100 as powerful and also, I guess, child sacrifice.

00:43:40.080 So is that something you saw and experienced?

00:43:42.520 Yeah.

00:43:42.960 Um, it was more something that I, I believed and saw in terms of what I was learning and

00:43:49.960 the, and more as a philosophy, I didn't get to the point where it was being practiced, but

00:43:54.500 if it had started to, praise God that I was saved before then, but if it had started to,

00:44:00.380 it would have made sense to me.

00:44:01.760 Um, it, yeah, based on what I was fully believing and thought was good.

00:44:08.420 I didn't think it was wrong.

00:44:09.540 I thought it was good.

00:44:10.340 That's, that can be so disturbing about this is I thought it was good that you're, you

00:44:16.260 know, you are God of your own body and you're like, why would you let a man tell you that

00:44:20.800 there's something wrong with using your own blood for magical practices or using, um, using

00:44:27.660 your body autonomously was seen as a way to conduct magic.

00:44:32.440 And, and it was also glorified that, you know, we're going back to our pagan roots and just

00:44:36.900 this scene almost hand in hand with woman empowerment, self-empowerment, ultimately, again,

00:44:42.520 making yourself out to be God.

00:44:44.360 Yeah.

00:44:44.600 And it just reminds me that it is once again, it's a version of perversion of what Jesus 0.94

00:44:50.340 said, because Jesus spilled his own blood.

00:44:54.400 He gave his own flesh as a sacrifice once and for all that covers our sin.

00:44:58.960 But the occult is saying, you have to spill your blood.

00:45:02.420 You have to give your body to make a sacrifice to whatever deity it is.

00:45:08.780 And in that you will receive the power to be your own God.

00:45:13.520 Yes.

00:45:13.680 So it's this kind of, as you said, self-deification and self-worship and being your own savior,

00:45:23.200 which we hear that language a lot in non-occult spaces and very like beautiful female empowerment 1.00

00:45:32.500 spaces.

00:45:33.600 We hear that from people like Glennon Doyle.

00:45:35.660 We hear that from people like Rachel Hollis. 0.87

00:45:37.540 We hear that from people like Brene Brown, all these beautiful, blonde, wealthy, successful 1.00

00:45:43.140 women who seem to, at least in some cases, have these great relationships that whether 0.98

00:45:48.420 they're saying those words or not, they are saying the same message that you can get what

00:45:53.900 you want by loving yourself enough and by being your own leader, being your own God, following

00:45:59.500 your heart.

00:46:00.700 You can basically manifest the life that you want.

00:46:02.980 And if you love yourself enough, it will unlock all of these inner powers that you have

00:46:07.900 inside to manifest good things.

00:46:10.320 Is that a parallel that you see in the mainstream?

00:46:14.080 Yes, absolutely.

00:46:15.960 And knowing where it comes from is so disturbing because, well, one, you know where it comes

00:46:20.500 from.

00:46:20.700 It goes back to Genesis 3.

00:46:22.160 It is that lie that you can be your own God.

00:46:25.240 And for me, learning the knowledge of both good and evil, your eyes will be opened and

00:46:30.340 you'll become like God.

00:46:31.440 And also to what you're saying, again, the teaching was Jesus is a type to become.

00:46:37.920 It diminishes Jesus.

00:46:39.340 It cuts away his deity or that he's preeminent or the truth about who he is.

00:46:43.680 And instead, it's self-empowerment.

00:46:45.600 And even whether it's your blood or someone else's blood, again, stripping from the Bible,

00:46:51.540 that it has power.

00:46:52.780 And so much of what we're doing in that Freemason ritual room was taking the Bible like we would 0.99

00:46:59.340 during rituals use a psalm, like a psalm, Psalm 51, I believe.

00:47:04.440 But in Latin or Kabbalah and Gematria basically says, you know, the Bible, yes, but you have to

00:47:12.140 read it in a code and the Hebrew letters have numerical value and it's all this secret.

00:47:16.780 The Bible becomes secret knowledge and doing banishing rituals, saying the names of God, 0.53

00:47:22.720 like the Hebrew names of God and the Lord's prayer to perform occult rituals,

00:47:29.240 trying to take as though also the ritual room was set up like the tabernacle.

00:47:35.500 So it's like taking from the Bible and trying to suck power for me.

00:47:40.200 Like I want to make my own will be done.

00:47:43.020 There's power here.

00:47:44.180 And then totally perverting the Bible again to make you God.

00:47:48.860 It's truly Luciferianism at heart and was so entrapping because thinking, no, we are using

00:47:57.000 the Bible and learning the names of God and Hebrew and all these things.

00:47:59.680 I am a Christian.

00:48:01.040 I just have the secret knowledge that you don't.

00:48:04.040 And so, again, if you would have, I would have talked about Jesus, God, the Bible, being

00:48:09.360 a Christian, but my definitions of all those terms and the way that I was practicing it

00:48:14.260 was opposed to God and completely different.

00:48:16.720 Talk about Christ consciousness.

00:48:19.380 Yes.

00:48:20.380 That, yeah, that goes into the same idea.

00:48:23.020 That word tends to be more with the new age, but the idea that Christ is like this consciousness,

00:48:29.220 almost that he attained this level of consciousness that you can too and step into that power and

00:48:36.760 almost the idea of as Christ was, you can be if you just are as he is and ascend to that

00:48:44.240 level.

00:48:44.980 And a lot of the time it has to do with your higher power and awakening.

00:48:48.560 But usually those awakening ways are very new age, very Eastern.

00:48:54.040 And again, cutting away at who Jesus is, he's no longer the savior.

00:48:58.780 You are because you can be him, which is a total lie and could have never saved me.

00:49:04.460 I was getting deeper and deeper into darkness.

00:49:08.580 Yes.

00:49:08.860 And I've seen people who would say that they're Christians, but then I see that language of 0.92

00:49:16.440 Christ consciousness or becoming Christ, not becoming like Christ, but taking on, becoming

00:49:23.060 the mind of Christ, which really doesn't mean following after his words in scripture.

00:49:28.240 It really means, as you said, becoming a little God and attaining to the highest form of humanity

00:49:36.020 or even transcending that, how did you get out of the occult and come to Christ?

00:49:42.320 Yeah.

00:49:43.740 Well, I was deep into practicing that.

00:49:46.820 It was my whole life.

00:49:48.640 And I just had moments of realizing how depraved I was.

00:49:52.880 There was a moment where I looked in the mirror again and I heard this voice saying,

00:49:56.440 it's crazy how evil becomes you.

00:49:58.940 But it was this voice that was not my own.

00:50:01.440 And it was very upsetting to say the least.

00:50:05.280 But I had thought, this might be evil what I'm doing.

00:50:09.020 I don't really know.

00:50:10.300 But I can just go back to doing what's right later.

00:50:12.900 Like I thought there's a difference between doing something that might be evil and being

00:50:17.200 evil.

00:50:17.560 But it was in that moment I realized like who I am inside, like constantly doing evil

00:50:23.320 things like there's this is way worse than I thought.

00:50:27.760 And again, in the order we were practicing things that involve the Bible.

00:50:32.800 And I just read the Bhagavad Gita, which is a Hindu text as it is, which is a very, very

00:50:38.020 long, basically their scripture with commentary.

00:50:41.060 So I was very prideful thinking I read that I might as well read the Bible.

00:50:44.540 It's just another it's just another one of sacred texts.

00:50:48.540 And there must be something to it because that's what we're using here.

00:50:52.500 And I read that you can tell a tree by its fruit.

00:50:56.400 I probably was in Matthew 7.

00:50:58.020 And I didn't really know what that meant.

00:51:00.800 But I knew it pierced me that the fruit of the people in this order, including me, but 0.81

00:51:06.940 even the highest up in the order, they're just as depraved as me.

00:51:10.740 They're they're taking cigarette breaks.

00:51:13.780 Not like that has anything to do with salvation, but if they can control the universe, like

00:51:19.060 why are they addicted to cigarettes?

00:51:20.240 Just little things that didn't quite add up.

00:51:23.320 And also just knowing that they're just as broken as me kind of gave me pause.

00:51:29.160 And then another thing was I read in Second Corinthians 11, 14, that Satan masquerades as

00:51:35.160 an angel of light.

00:51:35.940 And I kept thinking, how can this be bad?

00:51:38.520 It's light work or making excuses.

00:51:41.360 But when I read that, I realized, no, Satan is behind this.

00:51:47.040 I always felt that deep down, but I wanted to find out for myself.

00:51:50.540 I didn't mention this, but I had these abduction experiences.

00:51:56.120 Well, one abduction experience, multiple contact experiences.

00:51:59.820 And the abduction was the first time that I thought maybe these are evil, very scary things.

00:52:04.820 So that there had been that little bit of doubt that made me think maybe evil was behind

00:52:10.200 this.

00:52:10.520 And reading that verse, again, pierced my heart where I realized, no, Satan is behind

00:52:15.380 what I'm doing.

00:52:15.900 But I was still so prideful that I didn't turn from what I was doing.

00:52:21.100 And then one night I remembered Genesis 3.

00:52:24.620 I just remembered that the lie, the lie in the garden was that if you eat from the tree

00:52:30.780 of the knowledge of good and evil, your eyes will be opened and you'll be like God, knowing

00:52:34.760 good and evil.

00:52:35.780 And I just knew that Satan is behind this.

00:52:39.880 It led to the fall.

00:52:41.120 It wasn't actually a good thing.

00:52:42.760 And it's leading to a great fall in my life.

00:52:45.440 I was so lost.

00:52:47.300 And but still, I didn't turn.

00:52:51.320 I just thought, I don't know who I am apart from this.

00:52:54.060 Like, I don't know who I am.

00:52:55.740 This is all that I know.

00:52:57.240 So I just kept going.

00:52:59.480 And then one night in my studio apartment, it was just like any other night.

00:53:03.600 And I was walking across and I was spiritually attacked, which would happen. 0.95

00:53:08.640 And I fell to my knees and it felt like my soul was being sucked out into just utter darkness

00:53:14.640 and I had no control over it.

00:53:16.380 And I cried out, Jesus Christ, save me.

00:53:19.300 And and I meant it.

00:53:21.740 And in that moment, just like that, I felt the peace that I'd been longing for my entire

00:53:27.700 life.

00:53:28.500 And I knew that it was the God of the Bible, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit who

00:53:33.380 who saved me, who delivered me from that attack.

00:53:36.660 And that it was not hard for him.

00:53:39.260 All that darkness that I was tied up in that I thought I would never escape.

00:53:42.680 It was not hard for him to deliver me from.

00:53:44.920 And I was shaking because I realized if the God of the Bible is real, which he is, then

00:53:51.420 he says that sorcery is an abomination and divination, all these practices that I'm doing.

00:53:56.840 This is scary.

00:53:58.740 So I got out my Bible and I started reading it, still thinking I had the secret knowledge,

00:54:03.740 but it didn't matter because as I was reading it, it was like I was being filled, like I

00:54:09.560 was actually eating.

00:54:10.460 Whereas every other thing that I read, it would leave me hungrier and emptier and I would keep

00:54:14.480 searching and searching and searching, always learning, never coming to the knowledge of

00:54:17.440 the truth.

00:54:18.360 But with this, it was like satisfying me.

00:54:21.760 And I just kept reading it and reading it and really to learn, to learn that God is holy.

00:54:28.820 I didn't understand that.

00:54:30.100 I thought God, I could be God.

00:54:31.780 God was just like me.

00:54:32.580 But that God has given me every good thing that I've ever had.

00:54:36.140 And yet I have sinned against this holy God, truly.

00:54:40.500 In my case, it's very clear for me to see that I sinned, but that I'd sinned against

00:54:45.260 God and that there's a just punishment for sin.

00:54:48.060 I really, I did in a sense have a sense of impending doom, like fear, but learning that

00:54:54.260 the punishment for sin is just and is a very real place called hell, but that God is love

00:55:00.420 and that he sent Jesus Christ, not me, not someone that you can be, but Jesus Christ,

00:55:06.340 God incarnate, coming to earth, living a perfect life that I clearly did not live, even though

00:55:13.020 he was tempted as I was.

00:55:14.260 And then going to the cross, despising the shame, being beaten, mocked, scourged, and

00:55:19.240 crucified, and then dying on that cross.

00:55:23.060 And on that cross, he bore my sin, like me bowing down to those golden idols, me living

00:55:29.480 this lifestyle, he bore that in my place and that he bore God's wrath for that in my

00:55:34.100 place, and that he died and rose again as a one mediator between God and man.

00:55:38.680 And reading that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father

00:55:43.000 except through him, I'd been trying to find all these back doors.

00:55:46.480 None of them worked, but that when I repented of my sin and turned from my rebellion against

00:55:52.880 this God who, again, has given me every good thing that I've ever received and put my faith

00:55:57.900 in Christ alone for my salvation, that I could be washed white as snow, that reality was stunning

00:56:03.680 to me because I knew that I was dirty.

00:56:06.320 And to be made a new creation in Christ, that there's no condemnation in Christ, that you're

00:56:12.120 born again, the reality of that was so, I mean, beyond amazing to me.

00:56:19.580 And then I just kept reading it.

00:56:21.900 I locked myself away.

00:56:23.140 I realized for the first time I could get sober.

00:56:24.800 I'd been addicted for many, many, many years, thought I would die an addict.

00:56:29.740 I just got sober.

00:56:31.280 I knew that the Lord was with me.

00:56:32.980 He was with me and spoke to me through his word, and I could run to him in prayer.

00:56:38.440 And then, yeah, I've just been following him, and I'm truly amazed at who God truly is, which

00:56:44.540 is so—he is so much better than—I could have never been God.

00:56:49.000 I could have never saved myself.

00:56:50.220 I could have never pulled myself up by the bootstraps, but God truly saved me and has

00:56:54.720 given me new life in him and healed me from so, so many things.

00:57:00.680 And so you left the occult.

00:57:03.140 Yeah.

00:57:04.000 And you started going to church.

00:57:06.520 Tell us about one of the first churches that you walked into.

00:57:10.280 And you realized, if I remember correctly, that this was actually not a church that you

00:57:16.240 wanted to end up at.

00:57:17.600 And it's interesting to me that you had that discernment.

00:57:19.800 Oh, yeah.

00:57:20.680 Well, I was really hungry, and I'd been reading the word for a while and listening to some

00:57:24.840 sermons before actually taking that step of going to a church.

00:57:28.740 And I was living in Hollywood at the time, right in the center of Hollywood, and the closest

00:57:32.900 church to me, I just thought, well, I'll go.

00:57:34.600 Well, all churches are probably the same.

00:57:36.420 It was a Methodist church, and I mean, it was a female pastor, and all that she talked 0.94

00:57:44.020 about was how they were going to get more LBGTQ rights in the church.

00:57:52.520 They were going to fight for all these causes.

00:57:55.220 And it just felt like this town hall social justice meeting.

00:57:58.980 And I was starving.

00:58:00.240 It took so much for me to walk to that church and to be met with that.

00:58:06.880 I was so confused on what was that, just deeply confused.

00:58:14.360 So praise God that I found this other church where the pastor, it was a very, very small

00:58:21.960 church.

00:58:22.280 It was a plant.

00:58:22.960 And the pastor and his wife so graciously sat with me and walked me through scripture.

00:58:28.600 And I had a really hard time with different doctrines.

00:58:31.140 And they just walked me through it and were patient with me.

00:58:34.420 And God really used that to grow me as I was involved in that local body.

00:58:40.240 Wow.

00:58:40.840 That's amazing.

00:58:41.500 And also that the Holy Spirit obviously convicted you away from that.

00:58:44.700 And such a good reminder for us that people are walking into our churches hungry for the

00:58:50.140 Word of God, hungry for the gospel.

00:58:52.740 And we need to give that.

00:58:54.660 How did you meet your husband?

00:58:55.720 Oh, um, we met him at my church and we actually both moved from California at almost the exact

00:59:02.400 same time.

00:59:03.480 We were on the worship team together and it was, it's kind of a hilarious story of a lot

00:59:09.160 of friendship and awkwardness.

00:59:11.520 And, um, but it's just been so cool how God has used him and used his love for the Lord

00:59:17.640 and his, just the way he selflessly serves me and points me to scripture and washes me with

00:59:23.100 the water of the word.

00:59:23.940 Uh, I learned, God has taught me so much about what love is, especially romantic love through

00:59:30.220 my husband there, you know, there's God uses this marriage in many ways to sanctify me because,

00:59:36.200 you know, childhood sexual abuse, a lifetime of sin, abusive relationships.

00:59:40.040 I'm coming in with so much baggage and God has been so kind to use this relationship to

00:59:46.880 point me to the character of God and to show me the way that he has designed love to be

00:59:53.220 between a man and a woman and those different roles.

00:59:55.840 And I'm just so blessed and thankful to be able to walk this out with him by my side.

01:00:01.760 Yes.

01:00:02.260 That is so beautiful.

01:00:03.680 Thank you so much for sharing your testimony.

01:00:05.660 And if people want to hear more from you, you talk a lot about the differences between

01:00:10.140 the new age and Christianity, how people need to be on the lookout for that in culture.

01:00:15.700 Um, and also within, uh, subsets of the church or even people who call themselves Christians

01:00:22.820 using manifestation, name it and claim it.

01:00:25.800 You talk a lot about all of that.

01:00:27.140 If people want to hear more about that from you, where can they go?

01:00:29.480 Yeah.

01:00:30.420 Um, you can find me on YouTube, Jack Marino Chen, and the same as on Instagram.

01:00:36.280 And then I also have a podcast with Doreen Virtue and Jen Misa called New Age to New Heart,

01:00:41.400 which is on YouTube as well as Spotify and Apple.

01:00:44.140 Okay.

01:00:44.440 Thank you so much for joining us and for the courage to share your testimony.

01:00:48.780 I know it's going to encourage so many people.

01:00:50.380 Thank you.

01:00:50.940 Thank you so much for having me.

01:00:59.480 Thank you.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - March 18, 2025

REPLAY ｜ Ex-Witch Reveals LA’s Dark World of Sex Cults and Blood Offerings ｜ Guest： Jac Marino Chen

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