REPLAY ｜ Ex-Witch Reveals LA’s Dark World of Sex Cults and Blood Offerings ｜ Guest： Jac Marino Chen
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 1 minute
Words per Minute
170.39893
Summary
Jack Marino Chen came out of the occult and met Christ, and her testimony from the time she was a child and feeling like she was connected to these transcendent entities that she thought were aliens, into the New Age and then into the occult, and then out of that very dark world and into the light of the gospel.
Transcript
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We are playing a replay episode of a very popular episode of Relatable today because
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the Relatable team is traveling to a very fun location to have a special exclusive interview
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You'll remember that name because she was RFK Jr.'s running mate when he was running
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She shared about her conversion to Christianity and her baptism on social media a few weeks
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She was gracious enough to meet with us, and that episode will be out tomorrow.
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Jack Marino Chen came out of the occult and met Christ, and her testimony from the time
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she was a child and feeling like she was connected to these transcendent entities that she thought
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were aliens into the New Age and then into the occult and then out of that very dark world
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You are going to be so encouraged by the details of her story and just reminded of the power
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You are never too far gone, and Jack's testimony is such a good example of that powerful truth.
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Today's episode of Relatable is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
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Well, my name is Jack, and I grew up thinking I was a Christian, was sexually abused as a
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That left me very confused in a lot of ways and suppressing that.
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And then I had a supernatural experience with what I originally thought were angels, but then
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later learned about aliens and really grasped onto that as an identity and found an escape
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from stuffing down the abuse in these supernatural experiences.
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And then that led to escaping myself through alcohol, drugs, self-harm.
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And I ended up getting in very unhealthy relationships, abusive relationships, and was introduced more
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In high school, I read the book The Secret, which opened my eyes to the law of attraction,
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and it was very an exciting thought that I could control my reality.
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And another bad relationship led me deeper into the new age until when that crumbled down
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And I started being influenced by these entities, believing that I was led.
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One thing led to another, led to another, until I joined an occult order called the Golden Dawn,
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where we practiced ritual magic in a Freemason Lodge.
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And it was there that Jesus Christ met me in that darkness and saved me.
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And I've been sober now for coming up, or seven years, actually.
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And it's been amazing that I never thought that I would smile or laugh again in the deep
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You said that you thought that you were a Christian when you were growing up.
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And so what was the religious belief of your parents?
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Well, we thought, I thought that we were Christians kind of like, you're American, you're just born
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I don't remember hearing the gospel, but then again, I was very young.
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And my idea of Jesus was someone that you imagine when you're afraid.
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And so I really didn't understand what it meant to be a Christian, but really thought that
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And the sexual abuse happened at a very young age.
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And I really stuffed it down and didn't want anyone to find out about it.
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My earliest memories are of the abuse, but for sure, when I was five, it can be.
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I mean, any age, it's tragic and a nightmare, but when you're five years old, you don't even
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have the words, the mentality to wrap your mind around what's happening.
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And of course, you don't have the power to defend yourself either.
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And when I was around seven, the person who abused me was caught abusing a toddler and
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And I just told myself, if I never think about this again, I can just believe my lie that
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I was so afraid of being caught or it being found out.
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I didn't have the mental wherewithal really to understand what had happened.
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No, I just totally denied it, said nothing ever happened, and really thought if I believed
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that enough, I could create my own reality, you know, the Disney fairy tale kind of, I
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And it was around that same age of seven that I first had that supernatural experience.
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Just seeing lights in the sky that felt very, not just like lights, but these familiar,
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And my only way of understanding that was, oh, they must be angels.
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But then to learn about aliens, I think I really latched onto that because I believe that they
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saw me, they knew me, they accepted me, and they knew what had happened to me.
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And it was just one moment where you were outside and you looked up and you saw these
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You thought, these are angels communicating with me, letting me know that I'm okay and
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I was looking out over a canyon and it was just, it's kind of hard to put in words, but
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And I really, I truly made that my identity because it was so exciting for me and I felt
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And so I held on to that experience and ones that I continued having that were similar than
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this fascination with aliens throughout my life.
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So you said that you were seven at this time and that became your identity and that then you
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So tell me what that looked like at such a young age.
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I really started enjoying kind of being different and I started feeling like I was more influenced
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towards the more devious things, things that I knew were wrong.
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There was a lot of confusion that comes with childhood sexual abuse.
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I gravitated towards friends who I later learned were also being abused in many cases, but I
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started teaching my friends and they'd teach me what was happening with them sexually.
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And so there was just so much guilt and shame and anger and things stuck, pushed down, that these
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escapes, these powerful moments of experience as that child gave me something to hope in, to look
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And that very small amount that I knew about Christianity, I started giving away to embrace
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a worldview that had a place for these beings who were, I was special to them is what I received
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And that meant something so much to me in a world where I felt like no one really knew who I was.
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And you had access to the internet at this point.
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Were you using the internet to try to figure out what these powers were in your life?
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I didn't really get access to the internet until later on.
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Um, but once I did definitely, um, the more really it was reading things or hear, hearing
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other people talk about UFOs or gray aliens, that would kind of give me the little bit
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here and there that I latched onto with those experiences.
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And when did you learn about aliens and how did you come to feel that these lights that
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you had interacted with or that you felt like you interacted with were aliens, at least
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Yeah, I, it was a family member who was also very influenced with the UFO idea that I was
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And so it just kind of made sense to me, like something clicked that the whole angel thing
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The only context that I had for it, but the idea of aliens visiting and there's this mystery
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behind it and it's alluring and exciting, uh, really drew me in.
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And talk a little bit more about how that became your identity and kind of grew to be
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such a dominant part of your life when you were, I'm guessing preteen teenage years.
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I just really thought I was, uh, special to them.
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And so I would kind of seek out those experiences.
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I made my own Ouija boards, um, really wanting to have more contact with these beings again,
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I didn't get that because with these beings, I felt like I, they were actual experience.
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And I would try to have imaginary friends, but it was just different.
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So to me, these were my friends who saw me, who knew me, who loved me.
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Um, and so growing up again, I continued trying to escape myself.
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I had developed an eating disorder, um, in eighth grade.
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And when I got to high school, I wanted to fit in with people.
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I really just kept making other things, my idol.
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I didn't, the truth is like, I didn't know who God was.
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I didn't know that in that pain of my abuse and what was going on and the confusion and
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the things that I was doing, that there was a good God that I could run to and that Jesus
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isn't just someone to imagine, but that he is this perfect savior who went to the cross
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and he was tempted as, as I am and he was tempted as we are yet without sin and that
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on the cross, he died bearing God's wrath and my sin in my place, died, rose again, and
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now has ascended to the right hand of God as the one mediator between God and man.
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Like I had no understanding that there was a savior that I could go to, that I could run
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to, that I could cast my anxieties on because he cares for me.
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I thought I was afraid of anyone finding out who I was.
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So these beings knowing me, in addition to escaping myself through any means possible
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and even in idolatrous, very confused friendships.
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And then I realized that if I didn't start drinking and doing drugs, I would lose those
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friendships because that's what they were doing.
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I forgot to mention that my dad, who was very close to my mom, separated from him when
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I was five because he had a meth addiction and an alcohol addiction.
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And a lot of confusion about who you were, who was your caretaker, like who really cared
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So it kind of, I mean, it makes sense to me that a child as young as seven would latch
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on to something that they feel is a power bigger than them and that is steady and sees them
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as special because that's how you wanted to feel.
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And you wanted to feel known without having to tell the people around you because of the
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Um, you talked about trying to communicate to these entities through like a Ouija board.
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What other ways were you trying to communicate to them and have a relationship with them?
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Um, it was really when I got older, it was more when I was young.
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I wasn't doing a whole lot of reaching out to them, but in high school, starting to take
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on these more new age beliefs without knowing that that was what it was with the book, The
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Secret and Law of Attraction and, oh, the universe is so big.
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This is really making sense for what I've experienced and diving into that.
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And then once I, I was in a, um, relationship that was very confusing, I believed this person
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was my twin flame, actually more than my twin flame.
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He taught me that we lived hundreds of lives and, um, in, we were each other and that in
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some of them, we sadly were sent on different quests, but we were the same being ultimately.
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And, um, um, that relationship was very, uh, painful, but all that to say, being more
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introduced to these new age ideologies, I started using, uh, now the drugs I was specifically
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I was getting into psychedelic drugs to do that.
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It's kind of like these different frequencies or ways that you can trigger your mind allegedly
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to go into altered states of consciousness, similar to a guided meditation, but just to
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Um, and again, this was very alluring to me because it was escaping myself now in much
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You know, you've talked about before that some of the friendships that you had had with,
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As, um, as a young person that they were also being sexually abused and you felt from
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an early age that you also had to be sexual and that it caused a lot of sexual confusion
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in your life, which really plays a part in this escapism and seeking to have communication
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Can you talk about some of that confusion about your own identity?
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I, I was really, shame was such a huge part, shame and guilt.
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I felt so much shame and so much guilt and there is some confusion around like, what
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What is, and in my case, I think, especially later on, there was just a general depravity
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But there, um, I would go through these friendships and just really hope that I'd never be found
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out, uh, and that you had been sexually abused or sexually abused and that there had been
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And I had a friendship where the person who was, I saw as a friend, but there had been
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that, um, intimacy for lack of better words, started having feelings for me.
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And there's a lot of fear that, um, that, that being public would then expose to me.
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Not just the one thing, but everything that I, you know, then people will really see me
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And so that confusion and just pushing it down, um, really just confusion about sexuality
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and, uh, all together who I am as, as a person was driving those confusions.
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I mean, your first introduction to sexuality was so disordered.
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And I mean, there's a lot of data out there that the earlier a child is introduced to
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sex inappropriately, like inappropriately like that, the more likely they are to be confused
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down the line about sexuality, attractions, lust.
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And it's interesting that even though you didn't grow up in a traditional Christian home, that
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you still had this feeling that this is not right.
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You weren't seeking the savior to save you from those things yet, but you were seeking
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And I think there was just this real false gospel being preached to me, although I wouldn't
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have seen it then through these beings that was like, you are special.
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You have a purpose and you can be, you know, liberated from this because we have this plan
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And I think that's why I found so much identity in it.
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So you mentioned that you kind of got into the new age, the secret, the law of attraction.
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Tell us a little bit about what that is and what revelations you felt that you had when
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you were reading that, I think in your early 20s.
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So was it right around that time of that really unhealthy relationship with the twin flame
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This was one relationship before that and more, yeah, in a different abusive relationship.
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But when I read that, it talks about basically you can make your dreams come true.
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You actually have the power to create whatever life you want and you are the most important
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being in the universe because you can manifest whatever life you want.
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But it was very packaged like Barnes and Noble and not Barnes and Noble now, but packaged in
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It was kind of self-empowerment and this is great.
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It was interesting looking back, seeing on the first page now, it says, as above, so
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below the emerald tablets of Thoth, who later in my story is the entity that I was following
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that got me or that I believed was the entity that I was following that got me deep, deep
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But again, it's sold as this very glittery, beautiful girl boss.
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You can manifest your success by just declaring it.
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Which is interesting because when it doesn't work, it's your fault because you must have
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thought a negative thought somewhere along the line.
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So it really does become this thing that puts you in bondage.
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But it sounded very freeing that, hey, I really don't like my life.
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I mean, there were good parts of it, but generally I didn't.
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And I can actually make my life be whatever it is because I have the power to be my own God
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It really goes back to Genesis and just promising that the power of knowing the difference between
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the knowledge of good and evil, eating from that tree will give Eve godlike powers that
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will free her and then obviously led to bondage.
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So you got into this relationship with someone who said that you were twin flames and you kind
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But basically what that means that there is like this internal flame between you and this
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It was eternal, as you said, like lived a lot of different lives.
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And it really doesn't matter if my understanding is correct if like twin flames could be married
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to different people, but they're just in the wrong relationship.
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And if you meet, you have to get together because it is almost this external, powerful,
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transcendent force that is pulling you together.
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That's how it's explained and really what I believed.
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And it was so ultimately I had I made this man my God, like he became my religion, teaching
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The first time that I saw him, I felt that same familiar feeling that I saw that I felt when
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And so it was this deep connection of in a world of a lot of darkness and pain in my world.
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It was like, here's this person with color and with answers and with beautiful things
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And I really dove into that until I became just a follower of him.
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It's with him that I started trying psychedelic drugs, getting more.
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And we went to new age festivals similar to Burning Man, but on smaller scales where I'm
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learning more about sexual liberation and polyamory and all these different new age ideas and practices
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And and I, again, having no not knowing who I was, finding my identity in this new thing
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that promised me power to create my own reality.
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And ultimately, because I was serving this person so much to work off karma and become closer
00:22:05.800
And sorry to back up a little bit, because I believe this was the previous relationship,
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The person that you had dated before this that was also an abusive relationship, he was
00:22:16.960
And with that, I'm guessing there came, you know, a set of beliefs that he had that also
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influenced kind of your paganism and your belief in the new age.
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My main, quote unquote, good memories of with him that weren't violent or staying up
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all night on drugs on the reservation, talking about aliens and ancestors and elements and just
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different things that I was learning and being taught.
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And again, I still what's amazing is I still would have said I was a Christian even in high
00:22:51.540
school through drug abuse, alcohol abuse, living for myself, living in sin.
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And I would have said I was a Christian because I really didn't know what that meant.
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And if someone said, if someone confronted me, which by God's grace, a couple of people
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did, I would have thought, you don't, you can't judge my heart.
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But in this relationship, I still would have said I was a Christian, but the reality was
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But also the little truth that I did know, I was giving more and more a way to embrace
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these ideas that, you know, it's judgmental to not embrace this new Native American idea
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because they, you know, maybe they were here first or just starting to think that maybe
00:23:36.420
And tell me how you kind of graduated, if that's even the right word, or got into what
00:23:42.860
Because the occult and the new age aren't necessarily the same things, right?
00:23:47.520
Yeah, I personally would say that the occult is where the new age roots are.
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If you follow the new age, you'll find the occult.
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And when the relationship with this twin, quote unquote, twin flame ended, it was very
00:24:05.940
You felt like your whole self was wrapped up in this person.
00:24:10.100
And I had just moved to Hollywood and gotten a studio apartment to be closer to him.
00:24:14.760
And then I got the call that it was over, but he was coming back for me.
00:24:21.260
In it like a spiritual sense or like, like I'm breaking up with you, but because we're
00:24:27.340
twin flames, we'll find our way back to each other kind of thing.
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Um, and it was, it was both the spiritual and the physical, I'm coming back for you.
00:24:40.560
You should, you know, keep doing drugs to wait for me so that it'll pass faster.
00:24:44.740
And just these, these things, but I really believed them to the extent that now that I'm
00:24:48.900
married, to be honest, uh, or I guess I should say to be completely vulnerable, it was really
00:24:55.200
hard for me to take that step because there was still this lie that I'd harbored for years.
00:25:02.680
So there was a lot of, it was hard for you to take the step of marriage because, you know,
00:25:07.940
Satan had just embedded that twin flame idea in your mind.
00:25:13.600
And so graduating when, when it did end being, I mean, I really snapped, which I already was
00:25:21.500
pretty deep in it, but I snapped thinking I, at this time, my dad was homeless on the streets
00:25:28.140
in LA and when it would rain, it would just destroy me thinking about him because I was
00:25:31.880
his responsible party and there's a lot of pain and this isn't working by God's grace.
00:25:38.500
When I was in the new age and at these festivals, you know, there would be Tantra yoga tents and
00:25:45.260
basically like pagan orgy kind of things going on.
00:25:49.200
And the idea that you need to embrace your sexual liberation, sexual freedom.
00:25:54.360
And there were just some things that I couldn't do.
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There was a restraint there that I just felt so wrong to me that I couldn't do it.
00:26:04.180
And that made me really upset because I thought that my Christian dogma, Christian dogma was
00:26:09.480
holding me back from being truly free and truly liberated.
00:26:12.140
So I'd be so upset with myself that I couldn't be who my twin flame wanted me to be or who
00:26:18.300
I thought I would fit in more with these people if I could be.
00:26:21.900
But when the relationship ended, I just thought I need to, ultimately, I wanted to sear my conscience.
00:26:28.680
I wanted to push it all down and just go in and find where the real power was because
00:26:32.780
manifesting my reality wasn't working out so well.
00:26:36.040
And so that really looked like me locking myself in the studio apartment, using drugs,
00:26:42.920
spending all of my time researching whatever I was led to in that twin flame relationship.
00:26:49.340
I had really believed that these entities wanted to see through my eyes, not thinking of that
00:26:55.040
as possession, just thinking, you know, I've known these entities.
00:26:59.940
They're so familiar throughout childhood and I'm just special and they just want to use
00:27:06.060
And it's interesting because if you had just dropped in there, it sounds so clearly bad.
00:27:13.780
But having been my whole life kind of working up to this, it just made the next logical step
00:27:20.420
And so diving into all that then now, just diving into it more, I got into something called lucid
00:27:28.180
dreaming, where I was practicing waking up in my dreams so that I could control my dreams
00:27:33.660
and go on these astral planes and meet my spirit guides and learn more knowledge and something
00:27:41.340
I was very isolated, would have a hard time having conversations with people.
00:27:54.100
Something called astral projection, also doing similar kind of things.
00:27:58.320
And I also was led to this entity called Thoth and something called the Emerald Tablets
00:28:03.960
And I'd strung a clothesline across my studio apartment and painted the words on it.
00:28:09.160
And I was just so obsessed trying to find the secret knowledge and the next key to unlock
00:28:15.840
And you said that these entities that you still thought were aliens at this point, they wanted
00:28:30.960
Did you ever have a moment where you felt like, okay, they're in?
00:28:36.880
I think that sometimes, especially in meditative states, I would feel more connected with them
00:28:44.700
But there was, as I got deeper and deeper into it, I remember looking at my eyes in the
00:28:52.300
mirror, like just meeting my gaze and just my blood running cold with fear of like, I do not
00:29:00.560
But still thinking, I need to go into the darkness and shine the light of knowledge and all these
00:29:08.260
words that I'd learned to feel the fear and do it anyway.
00:29:17.600
Uh, I, I would write things like I'm an alien watching through the eyes of a girl and just
00:29:22.960
very dark things, uh, really getting more and more depraved as well.
00:29:34.360
It was, it's kind of strange, but it was like every, the next thing would glow physically
00:29:43.400
Um, I didn't know what was physical reality and what was just, uh, me seeing things, you
00:29:55.080
I was walking down the street and I saw a Freemason lodge and that glowed.
00:29:59.400
So that got me more into the, uh, Masonic texts, Kabbalistic texts.
00:30:04.380
And I don't know, we, I don't really know what Freemason is or what Masonic texts are.
00:30:12.740
So Freemasonry, um, I, I get a lot of pushback when I talk about Freemasonry because Freemasonry
00:30:20.540
Uh, they do have other orders that I actually reached out to this Freemason lodge.
00:30:25.140
It's, it's, uh, I think they would call themselves more of a fraternity, like a brotherhood.
00:30:32.100
Uh, ultimately I think that it has a lot to do with idolatry and Gnosticism, uh, but secret
00:30:39.180
And when I reached out to them, they recommended me to the Eastern star, which is their order
00:30:44.060
for women that also goes into very secret, um, secret teachings, uh, there.
00:30:50.400
But the order that I ended up getting involved in called the Golden Dawn was started by three
00:30:56.880
master Masons and, uh, brought a lot of Masonic ideas and symbolism because Freemasonry can
00:31:06.240
Also brought in Rosicrucianism, which is another, uh, philosophy kind of taking, it's an esoteric
00:31:14.740
So I've heard it said that what Rosicrucians kind of think about or use as a philosophy,
00:31:24.080
And so I ended up being led to the Golden Dawn, which took a lot of, really, I ended up being
00:31:31.500
led there because I saw these tarot cards that were glowing and they were the, ended up being
00:31:35.580
the Thoth tarot deck by a man named Alistair Crowley.
00:31:38.760
Um, and he's known as the most wicked man to have ever lived.
00:31:42.320
He is, uh, he actually popularized a lot of wicked things here in America.
00:31:51.140
Um, well, bringing the occult over here, but Alistair Crowley's, uh, form of magic and was
00:32:00.500
so gross, uh, a lot to do with the belief that sexual fluids have more magical power.
00:32:09.580
This would be, um, but he would even take that to the nth degree, uh, including children,
00:32:16.540
very, very awful things that, uh, are, are said about him.
00:32:26.880
Um, and I believe he was on the Beatles cover, Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.
00:32:33.240
And he's, he was very, uh, pushed by the music industry at one point.
00:32:39.180
So, so Alistair Crowley, you said, that's his name.
00:32:53.200
As you said, you thought that these entities were kind of showing you the direction to go,
00:32:58.720
the things to buy, what to focus on based on glowing.
00:33:01.600
You, you saw the Freemasonry Lodge, which was glowing.
00:33:05.560
So you felt like, okay, I got to go that direction.
00:33:11.380
And then you found these tarot cards, which you said were tarot cards of Thoth,
00:33:15.240
which was the entity that was at the beginning of that secret book.
00:33:21.960
But I'm just making sure that everyone has it kind of mapped because yeah,
00:33:26.420
Satan uses these things and pieces them together and kind of like an upside down of what can be
00:33:33.880
like a beautiful testimony of redemption is also like a testimony of, of darkness for those that
00:33:40.700
And so that's how all of those pieces kind of came together.
00:33:44.080
So you're in this metaphysical shop, you see these tarot cards, you feel like they're glowing.
00:33:48.260
They're created by this very, very evil, pedophilic, sexually predatory, so-called magician,
00:34:00.960
I just spent almost all of my time trying to take the images into my psyche, trying to really
00:34:08.820
take this tarot deck in and started dreaming about them, started practicing tarot.
00:34:15.100
So, and from that deck and the Alistair Crowley information is how I learned about the Golden
00:34:21.500
Dawn really, how I got introduced and felt that definitely played a big part in me feeling
00:34:27.900
like this was the next step, was joining this Golden Dawn and Alistair Crowley was in the
00:34:35.740
And so I, I really thought, okay, this is the most wicked man to ever live.
00:34:41.900
I, I tried to make my own justifications of what is good and what is evil and trying to
00:34:48.520
say, well, I, I was going to join the Eastern Star.
00:34:52.620
Um, I have family members that were involved in Freemasonry and that was one of the things
00:34:58.500
So that sounds good, but their symbol is of an upside down pentagram.
00:35:04.240
But the Golden Dawn has a, has a cross symbol in, uh, at least a cross involved in the symbol.
00:35:09.420
So that must be good, but I kept just, um, thinking that, that I, I just, it took me a
00:35:16.700
while and a lot of back and forth before really reaching out.
00:35:21.580
And I, there was an order in my area, the original Golden Dawn ended a long time ago,
00:35:29.520
And I was living in LA at the time that had an order where they practiced the same magical
00:35:34.880
And so reached out to them and a man asked me to meet him at a coffee shop in Silver Lake.
00:35:41.120
And when we started talking, everything that he was saying to me was exactly what I'd been
00:35:47.080
led to from astrology, Kabbalah, the, uh, Egyptian deities, uh, tarot, all these things
00:35:58.580
So it was like, wow, this man's speaking my language.
00:36:00.420
I can actually have a conversation with this person.
00:36:04.940
And the words like you were called to this, uh, were used.
00:36:08.300
So it just, it felt like I was about to get in on the secret club that my alien entities,
00:36:17.560
What were some other things that he was saying that resonated with you?
00:36:21.420
So it was really the way that he spoke in a very like deep, esoteric way, talking about
00:36:28.860
I, I'd been practicing alchemy, which has to do with the great work.
00:36:34.500
It's kind of what they call the work of, um, of being in this magical order.
00:36:42.640
Alchemy is also called the great work and it has a lot to do with something called transmuting
00:36:47.040
where you're taking gross matter and it's being transmuted to gold, but more in a, your
00:36:53.360
soul allegedly is going from being on this lower level to you go through transmutation
00:37:05.960
Um, and so it was really exciting for someone to, to be talking about the things that I so
00:37:13.420
This, so this is the moment that you felt finally all that I've been working toward that
00:37:20.300
I've been listening to all of the, even the drugs that I've been doing, the painting in
00:37:31.020
Um, I was asked to go to a Freemason Lodge to be initiated and I was so excited.
00:37:37.620
And, um, I remember I was listening to the soundtrack for Fantasmic on the way there because I felt
00:37:43.300
like all the sorcery and the themes in Disney, I finally understood what they meant and I
00:37:47.360
was going to go live it out, um, for real though.
00:37:53.700
I was just excited and they had me, um, yeah, when I got there, there was a woman on the
00:37:59.900
top of the stairs waiting for me in a full black robe with a hood.
00:38:05.300
Did that scare you at all or were you kind of used to that kind of imagery?
00:38:08.100
Yeah, I was, it made sense given all the things I'd been studying and pouring my life
00:38:14.280
I wasn't working at the time other than, you know, DoorDash here and there.
00:38:18.920
So all my time went into obsessively studying these things.
00:38:30.980
I had to wear red socks and I was told not so much to pray, but to meditate, to prepare
00:38:39.180
Um, and the ritual itself, I was hoodwinked, so I couldn't see.
00:38:47.000
A lot of it had to do with taking John 1, 5 out of context.
00:38:50.640
Um, the idea that you're going into the darkness to shine the light of knowledge in it, the secret
00:38:55.840
knowledge, um, a lot of, uh, symbolism to do with duality, darkness and light and ancient
00:39:05.080
And, um, there was a sword put to my neck, swearing that I would never share what I learned
00:39:20.040
And I'd also been in a sorority where they're, you know, they're similar like theatrics and
00:39:25.220
So I, I remember telling one of them like, oh, I'm not scared of, I went through something
00:39:34.380
Like it felt like you're saying sacred, but, but yeah, so I was initiated.
00:39:39.400
I took a lot of pride in thinking that I was again, special, had been called to this and
00:39:46.000
I continued going to the Masonic Lodge to do, uh, to practice, to learn.
00:39:53.160
Um, and there was a time where we spent like 12 hour days for a couple of days, all just
00:39:59.640
doing invocation rituals, sigils, um, learning hermetic magic.
00:40:06.220
And I would have still said I was a Christian, which is amazing.
00:40:11.280
I would bow down to a golden idol before entering this room.
00:40:16.560
I would, um, the, these invocations of these demonic entities were bowing my face down before
00:40:26.440
It makes me emotional, but we'd take communion, um, or they call it Eucharist to Osiris, who's
00:40:36.280
And I, I thought I was getting closer to Christ because that's what we were told, uh, we would
00:40:41.060
use the name Jesus Christ, but Jesus was someone that you become someone that you attain to.
00:40:45.980
I just thought I had a deeper understanding of what it meant to be Christian, but I was
00:40:49.440
worshiping demons and I was becoming more and more depraved sexually.
00:40:54.600
Um, and in every other way, my gender, uh, or not my gender, but my sexual identity.
00:41:01.200
I got involved in sex magic, um, which really came with it.
00:41:06.740
The, what my belief, which is taught that the height of sexual, uh, you know, pleasure
00:41:17.280
It's just, if you go down to its core, how the original teaching is more so to practice
00:41:26.340
I, were they like orgies with people of all different kinds of genders?
00:41:31.020
I, I personally didn't partake in, in, um, in them with other people, but in my own, uh,
00:41:42.540
So, because the thought is that like orgasm gives you greater access to the supernatural
00:41:49.300
and you can more effectively manifest what you want.
00:41:54.540
It's seen as a very powerful energy that at that point, if you hold in your mind, the
00:42:00.260
thing that you're trying to manifest that, that moment is the most powerful moment to
00:42:05.700
Also, I, I, I was very unhealthy from the drug use and all that.
00:42:09.300
So I didn't personally have a cycle, but I really wanted to, because the idea of menstrual
00:42:13.740
blood is seen as powerful, powerful for releasing and powerful blood in general, powerful for
00:42:21.360
So when I see people doing things like abortion rituals or, um, releasing, you know, seeing
00:42:28.580
it as a, as a practice, as a, something magical, it makes sense with the lies that I was believing
00:42:38.020
But when you really get into the occult and you see like the belief system regarding blood,
00:42:43.820
regarding sexual things, regarding duality and fluidity and, um, none of what I'm seeing
00:42:53.280
Talk a little bit more about that abortion ritual, because shockingly, I saw a post by
00:42:59.900
Cosmopolitan, um, on Instagram that was basically talking about abortion, like a satanic ritual.
00:43:07.340
And yeah, we have it up right there, um, satanic abortion ceremony.
00:43:11.620
We've actually seen the satanic temple try to carve out exceptions in states that have passed
00:43:19.740
pro-life legislation, carve out exceptions for religious freedom for them to say, well, it is
00:43:24.460
part of our religious freedom to sacrifice basically unborn babies.
00:43:28.520
And so you're saying that that whole thing doesn't surprise you because they see blood
00:43:35.100
as powerful and also, I guess, child sacrifice.
00:43:42.960
Um, it was more something that I, I believed and saw in terms of what I was learning and
00:43:49.960
the, and more as a philosophy, I didn't get to the point where it was being practiced, but
00:43:54.500
if it had started to, praise God that I was saved before then, but if it had started to,
00:44:01.760
Um, it, yeah, based on what I was fully believing and thought was good.
00:44:10.340
That's, that can be so disturbing about this is I thought it was good that you're, you
00:44:16.260
know, you are God of your own body and you're like, why would you let a man tell you that
00:44:20.800
there's something wrong with using your own blood for magical practices or using, um, using
00:44:27.660
your body autonomously was seen as a way to conduct magic.
00:44:32.440
And, and it was also glorified that, you know, we're going back to our pagan roots and just
00:44:36.900
this scene almost hand in hand with woman empowerment, self-empowerment, ultimately, again,
00:44:44.600
And it just reminds me that it is once again, it's a version of perversion of what Jesus
00:44:54.400
He gave his own flesh as a sacrifice once and for all that covers our sin.
00:44:58.960
But the occult is saying, you have to spill your blood.
00:45:02.420
You have to give your body to make a sacrifice to whatever deity it is.
00:45:08.780
And in that you will receive the power to be your own God.
00:45:13.680
So it's this kind of, as you said, self-deification and self-worship and being your own savior,
00:45:23.200
which we hear that language a lot in non-occult spaces and very like beautiful female empowerment
00:45:37.540
We hear that from people like Brene Brown, all these beautiful, blonde, wealthy, successful
00:45:43.140
women who seem to, at least in some cases, have these great relationships that whether
00:45:48.420
they're saying those words or not, they are saying the same message that you can get what
00:45:53.900
you want by loving yourself enough and by being your own leader, being your own God, following
00:46:00.700
You can basically manifest the life that you want.
00:46:02.980
And if you love yourself enough, it will unlock all of these inner powers that you have
00:46:10.320
Is that a parallel that you see in the mainstream?
00:46:15.960
And knowing where it comes from is so disturbing because, well, one, you know where it comes
00:46:25.240
And for me, learning the knowledge of both good and evil, your eyes will be opened and
00:46:31.440
And also to what you're saying, again, the teaching was Jesus is a type to become.
00:46:39.340
It cuts away his deity or that he's preeminent or the truth about who he is.
00:46:45.600
And even whether it's your blood or someone else's blood, again, stripping from the Bible,
00:46:52.780
And so much of what we're doing in that Freemason ritual room was taking the Bible like we would
00:46:59.340
during rituals use a psalm, like a psalm, Psalm 51, I believe.
00:47:04.440
But in Latin or Kabbalah and Gematria basically says, you know, the Bible, yes, but you have to
00:47:12.140
read it in a code and the Hebrew letters have numerical value and it's all this secret.
00:47:16.780
The Bible becomes secret knowledge and doing banishing rituals, saying the names of God,
00:47:22.720
like the Hebrew names of God and the Lord's prayer to perform occult rituals,
00:47:29.240
trying to take as though also the ritual room was set up like the tabernacle.
00:47:35.500
So it's like taking from the Bible and trying to suck power for me.
00:47:44.180
And then totally perverting the Bible again to make you God.
00:47:48.860
It's truly Luciferianism at heart and was so entrapping because thinking, no, we are using
00:47:57.000
the Bible and learning the names of God and Hebrew and all these things.
00:48:01.040
I just have the secret knowledge that you don't.
00:48:04.040
And so, again, if you would have, I would have talked about Jesus, God, the Bible, being
00:48:09.360
a Christian, but my definitions of all those terms and the way that I was practicing it
00:48:23.020
That word tends to be more with the new age, but the idea that Christ is like this consciousness,
00:48:29.220
almost that he attained this level of consciousness that you can too and step into that power and
00:48:36.760
almost the idea of as Christ was, you can be if you just are as he is and ascend to that
00:48:44.980
And a lot of the time it has to do with your higher power and awakening.
00:48:48.560
But usually those awakening ways are very new age, very Eastern.
00:48:54.040
And again, cutting away at who Jesus is, he's no longer the savior.
00:48:58.780
You are because you can be him, which is a total lie and could have never saved me.
00:49:08.860
And I've seen people who would say that they're Christians, but then I see that language of
00:49:16.440
Christ consciousness or becoming Christ, not becoming like Christ, but taking on, becoming
00:49:23.060
the mind of Christ, which really doesn't mean following after his words in scripture.
00:49:28.240
It really means, as you said, becoming a little God and attaining to the highest form of humanity
00:49:36.020
or even transcending that, how did you get out of the occult and come to Christ?
00:49:48.640
And I just had moments of realizing how depraved I was.
00:49:52.880
There was a moment where I looked in the mirror again and I heard this voice saying,
00:50:05.280
But I had thought, this might be evil what I'm doing.
00:50:10.300
But I can just go back to doing what's right later.
00:50:12.900
Like I thought there's a difference between doing something that might be evil and being
00:50:17.560
But it was in that moment I realized like who I am inside, like constantly doing evil
00:50:23.320
things like there's this is way worse than I thought.
00:50:27.760
And again, in the order we were practicing things that involve the Bible.
00:50:32.800
And I just read the Bhagavad Gita, which is a Hindu text as it is, which is a very, very
00:50:38.020
long, basically their scripture with commentary.
00:50:41.060
So I was very prideful thinking I read that I might as well read the Bible.
00:50:44.540
It's just another it's just another one of sacred texts.
00:50:48.540
And there must be something to it because that's what we're using here.
00:50:52.500
And I read that you can tell a tree by its fruit.
00:51:00.800
But I knew it pierced me that the fruit of the people in this order, including me, but
00:51:06.940
even the highest up in the order, they're just as depraved as me.
00:51:13.780
Not like that has anything to do with salvation, but if they can control the universe, like
00:51:23.320
And also just knowing that they're just as broken as me kind of gave me pause.
00:51:29.160
And then another thing was I read in Second Corinthians 11, 14, that Satan masquerades as
00:51:41.360
But when I read that, I realized, no, Satan is behind this.
00:51:47.040
I always felt that deep down, but I wanted to find out for myself.
00:51:50.540
I didn't mention this, but I had these abduction experiences.
00:51:56.120
Well, one abduction experience, multiple contact experiences.
00:51:59.820
And the abduction was the first time that I thought maybe these are evil, very scary things.
00:52:04.820
So that there had been that little bit of doubt that made me think maybe evil was behind
00:52:10.520
And reading that verse, again, pierced my heart where I realized, no, Satan is behind
00:52:15.900
But I was still so prideful that I didn't turn from what I was doing.
00:52:24.620
I just remembered that the lie, the lie in the garden was that if you eat from the tree
00:52:30.780
of the knowledge of good and evil, your eyes will be opened and you'll be like God, knowing
00:52:51.320
I just thought, I don't know who I am apart from this.
00:52:59.480
And then one night in my studio apartment, it was just like any other night.
00:53:03.600
And I was walking across and I was spiritually attacked, which would happen.
00:53:08.640
And I fell to my knees and it felt like my soul was being sucked out into just utter darkness
00:53:21.740
And in that moment, just like that, I felt the peace that I'd been longing for my entire
00:53:28.500
And I knew that it was the God of the Bible, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit who
00:53:33.380
who saved me, who delivered me from that attack.
00:53:39.260
All that darkness that I was tied up in that I thought I would never escape.
00:53:44.920
And I was shaking because I realized if the God of the Bible is real, which he is, then
00:53:51.420
he says that sorcery is an abomination and divination, all these practices that I'm doing.
00:53:58.740
So I got out my Bible and I started reading it, still thinking I had the secret knowledge,
00:54:03.740
but it didn't matter because as I was reading it, it was like I was being filled, like I
00:54:10.460
Whereas every other thing that I read, it would leave me hungrier and emptier and I would keep
00:54:14.480
searching and searching and searching, always learning, never coming to the knowledge of
00:54:21.760
And I just kept reading it and reading it and really to learn, to learn that God is holy.
00:54:32.580
But that God has given me every good thing that I've ever had.
00:54:36.140
And yet I have sinned against this holy God, truly.
00:54:40.500
In my case, it's very clear for me to see that I sinned, but that I'd sinned against
00:54:45.260
God and that there's a just punishment for sin.
00:54:48.060
I really, I did in a sense have a sense of impending doom, like fear, but learning that
00:54:54.260
the punishment for sin is just and is a very real place called hell, but that God is love
00:55:00.420
and that he sent Jesus Christ, not me, not someone that you can be, but Jesus Christ,
00:55:06.340
God incarnate, coming to earth, living a perfect life that I clearly did not live, even though
00:55:14.260
And then going to the cross, despising the shame, being beaten, mocked, scourged, and
00:55:23.060
And on that cross, he bore my sin, like me bowing down to those golden idols, me living
00:55:29.480
this lifestyle, he bore that in my place and that he bore God's wrath for that in my
00:55:34.100
place, and that he died and rose again as a one mediator between God and man.
00:55:38.680
And reading that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father
00:55:43.000
except through him, I'd been trying to find all these back doors.
00:55:46.480
None of them worked, but that when I repented of my sin and turned from my rebellion against
00:55:52.880
this God who, again, has given me every good thing that I've ever received and put my faith
00:55:57.900
in Christ alone for my salvation, that I could be washed white as snow, that reality was stunning
00:56:06.320
And to be made a new creation in Christ, that there's no condemnation in Christ, that you're
00:56:12.120
born again, the reality of that was so, I mean, beyond amazing to me.
00:56:23.140
I realized for the first time I could get sober.
00:56:24.800
I'd been addicted for many, many, many years, thought I would die an addict.
00:56:32.980
He was with me and spoke to me through his word, and I could run to him in prayer.
00:56:38.440
And then, yeah, I've just been following him, and I'm truly amazed at who God truly is, which
00:56:44.540
is so—he is so much better than—I could have never been God.
00:56:50.220
I could have never pulled myself up by the bootstraps, but God truly saved me and has
00:56:54.720
given me new life in him and healed me from so, so many things.
00:57:06.520
Tell us about one of the first churches that you walked into.
00:57:10.280
And you realized, if I remember correctly, that this was actually not a church that you
00:57:17.600
And it's interesting to me that you had that discernment.
00:57:20.680
Well, I was really hungry, and I'd been reading the word for a while and listening to some
00:57:24.840
sermons before actually taking that step of going to a church.
00:57:28.740
And I was living in Hollywood at the time, right in the center of Hollywood, and the closest
00:57:36.420
It was a Methodist church, and I mean, it was a female pastor, and all that she talked
00:57:44.020
about was how they were going to get more LBGTQ rights in the church.
00:57:55.220
And it just felt like this town hall social justice meeting.
00:58:00.240
It took so much for me to walk to that church and to be met with that.
00:58:06.880
I was so confused on what was that, just deeply confused.
00:58:14.360
So praise God that I found this other church where the pastor, it was a very, very small
00:58:22.960
And the pastor and his wife so graciously sat with me and walked me through scripture.
00:58:28.600
And I had a really hard time with different doctrines.
00:58:31.140
And they just walked me through it and were patient with me.
00:58:34.420
And God really used that to grow me as I was involved in that local body.
00:58:41.500
And also that the Holy Spirit obviously convicted you away from that.
00:58:44.700
And such a good reminder for us that people are walking into our churches hungry for the
00:58:55.720
Oh, um, we met him at my church and we actually both moved from California at almost the exact
00:59:03.480
We were on the worship team together and it was, it's kind of a hilarious story of a lot
00:59:11.520
And, um, but it's just been so cool how God has used him and used his love for the Lord
00:59:17.640
and his, just the way he selflessly serves me and points me to scripture and washes me with
00:59:23.940
Uh, I learned, God has taught me so much about what love is, especially romantic love through
00:59:30.220
my husband there, you know, there's God uses this marriage in many ways to sanctify me because,
00:59:36.200
you know, childhood sexual abuse, a lifetime of sin, abusive relationships.
00:59:40.040
I'm coming in with so much baggage and God has been so kind to use this relationship to
00:59:46.880
point me to the character of God and to show me the way that he has designed love to be
00:59:53.220
between a man and a woman and those different roles.
00:59:55.840
And I'm just so blessed and thankful to be able to walk this out with him by my side.
01:00:05.660
And if people want to hear more from you, you talk a lot about the differences between
01:00:10.140
the new age and Christianity, how people need to be on the lookout for that in culture.
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Um, and also within, uh, subsets of the church or even people who call themselves Christians
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If people want to hear more about that from you, where can they go?
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Um, you can find me on YouTube, Jack Marino Chen, and the same as on Instagram.
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And then I also have a podcast with Doreen Virtue and Jen Misa called New Age to New Heart,
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which is on YouTube as well as Spotify and Apple.
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Thank you so much for joining us and for the courage to share your testimony.