REPLAY： Holy Sexuality with Dr. Christopher Yuan
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Summary
Dr. Christopher Yuan is a Christian scholar, teacher, speaker, and author who was previously a practicing gay man, as well as a convicted drug dealer. His journey to Christ is an extremely powerful testimony, so you re not only going to hear his story, but he is going to give us insight into what the Bible truly says about homosexuality, how the church is dealing with homosexuality, and how we as Christians can minister to our homosexual friends.
Transcript
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Hey guys, it's Allie with CRTV's Relatable, where I am every Wednesday. I hope that y'all
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are having a great week. I'm super excited about today's podcast. You guys are going to hear me
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interview Dr. Christopher Yuan, who is a Christian scholar, teacher, speaker, and author who was
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previously a practicing gay man as well as a convicted drug dealer. And needless to say,
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his journey to Christ is an extremely powerful testimony. So you're not only going to hear his
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story, but he is going to give us insight into what the Bible truly says about homosexuality,
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how the church is dealing with homosexuality, and how we as Christians can minister to our
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homosexual friends. You guys have been asking me a lot about this particular subject, but I thought
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it would be better that you could hear someone who has firsthand experience in this, who has a very
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compassionate, empathetic, biblical take on sexuality. So I'm so excited for you to hear
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that. And then after that, this is kind of a long podcast. After that, I'm going to briefly touch on
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North Korea, what I think about everything that's been happening, the suicides of Kate Spade and
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Anthony Bourdain, and then a thing that I just don't get, which is a section that I sometimes put
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at the end of my podcast. I haven't done that one in a while. Like I said, this is going to be a
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longer podcast. So you are welcome to those of you who have asked for a longer format. And I am
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sorry to those of you who only want like a 30 minute podcast. You can listen to this in chunks
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and it'll last you all week. Okay, here we go with the interview with Dr. Christopher Yuan.
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Christopher, thank you so much for joining me. If you could first tell us who you are and what you do.
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Sure. My name is Christopher Yuan, and I speak on the topic of faith and sexuality, specifically on
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homosexuality, on reaching the gay community. How do we minister better on this topic? And
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especially how do we help those who are Christian and yet experiencing such attractions?
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Wow, that is a really big and really relevant and very hot topic right now, especially with all of
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the changes in the church and changes really in the sexual and moral revolution that we seem to be
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happening, having right now. How did you get into this specific niche of theology and Christianity?
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Well, it was kind of like not by choice. You know, that's the way God works. It's a lot of it is
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actually through my own personal experience. I wasn't raised in a Christian, in a Christian home.
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My parents raised me very traditional Chinese values. If you haven't noticed, I am Chinese.
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And my parents immigrated here from Taiwan. They were born in China, raised in Taiwan. They came here
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to the U.S. for graduate school. And, you know, as a Chinese American, we have strong family values,
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but kind of void of really any faith at all, didn't own a Bible. But I have a secret that I kept
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hidden through high school, college, even the Marine Corps reserves. I went to dental school
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in my early 20s. And it was there that I finally came out of the closet. I began living openly as a
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gay man. So I decided to go home, break the news to my parents. And I told them I'm gay.
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Well, my mom, kind of being your typical Asian mother, wanted to control the situation. I don't know
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if you ever heard of tiger moms. So she controlled the situation. She gave me an ultimatum. She said,
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you must either choose the family or choose that. And for me, this wasn't a choice. This is who I am.
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I mean, that's what the world told me then. This is the world that's telling us now. Your sexuality is
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who you are. And I bought that. Right. So I told my mom, this is not a choice. This is who I am.
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And I thought, well, if you can't accept me, I have no other choice but to leave. Left home,
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devastated my mom. And it's so amazing how God used crisis in our lives to turn us to him.
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My parents, who were searching for God, turned to him. And they became Christians through that
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crisis. Wow. And when did you realize that you were gay? And what was that initial process like?
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Well, you know, I was about nine years old when I first realized I had these attractions. I actually
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came across pornography at that time when I was nine at a friend's house, of all things. You know,
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a trusted friend's house that my parents knew. So it wasn't like one of my friends. It was actually
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my parents' friends. And it was then that I realized that I had these desires. I didn't know
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what to do with it. And I just, I didn't tell anyone. I was afraid to really tell anyone. This
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is back in the seventies. Right. So I just kept it hidden and I really didn't tell anyone.
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And then as you grew up, you kind of realized, okay, this is the lifestyle that I am going to live.
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Like you said, that's who I am. And how did you decide, okay, I'm going to tell my parents
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no matter what it costs me. And this is the path that I'm going to take. What was that really
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difficult? Yeah. I mean, so after realizing, you know, so I kind of nuanced a little bit about
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identifying as gay, you know, I first realized that I had these desires and it wasn't until my
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twenties that I, that I thought, Oh, this is who I am. Um, and, uh, you know, it, it was,
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you know, difficult coming to grasp with all these things. And it wasn't until later on that
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I realized, well, this isn't going away. And I didn't have any framework to think through these
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things. That's why, you know, we have all these questions. Well, someone has these desires for as
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long as they remember and they didn't choose them. And, and this is why I think it's so important
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that we, we, I often tell them, this is in my next book coming up that I said, human sexuality
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can't be understood apart from theological anthropology. And I know that sounds really
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big, but what that really means is simply that we're created in the image of God. And of course,
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that's good. We have value, dignity. So that means that we shouldn't demean anyone. We should view
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every person. I mean, even the, the worst criminal is created in God's image. But then the second part
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that is so important is that that image has been disordered. So that in that criminal,
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even though he has that image, he has a sin nature and the reality is we all have that sin
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nature. And when I realized now that that helps me to think through not only, you know, all my
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behaviors and thoughts, but that really helps me to understand my sexuality.
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But at the time when you came out to your parents, like you said, you had no biblical framework through
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which that you were analyzing this. So you weren't thinking about a sin nature. Tell me about those
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first few years after you decided to leave home and live openly as a gay man, what that was like.
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Yeah, I, um, I was in dental school, so I was in my twenties. Um, and I think I just did what most
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people in their 20 year olds do when they don't know Christ. And that was have fun, enjoy life. And,
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um, um, I partied, I would go out with my friends. Um, I, it just happened that the dental school was
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about three blocks away from the gay clubs. And I went there, um, every weekend. And to be honest,
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I made some of the greatest friends there. These, the people in the gay community, uh, my gay friends
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are some of the most loving, nice people and, and not, and that's why I get really frustrated when
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we, uh, treat all people in the gay community, like the gay activists, the angry gay activists
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that hate us and, or, or that, that, I mean, it's sometimes reciprocal, unfortunately, but we need
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to realize that actually the majority of gays and lesbians are not like that. And these were just
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really wonderful people that just, uh, cried with me when I cried, uh, had fun laugh when I laughed and
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they were just really good, dear friends of mine and they accepted me. And I think sometimes, um,
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that, that feeling of acceptance and belonging, uh, should be coming from the body of Christ.
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And I think sometimes we have some things to learn from, uh, from the gay community and their love.
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So they accepted me. Um, I was going out to the gay clubs, unfortunately,
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at the gay clubs, I started doing drugs, which meant I'd have to pay for my habits somehow as a poor
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dental student. So I did that by selling drugs and I sold to friends, classmates, even a professor.
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Eventually I actually was expelled from dental school just three months before I was received
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my doctorate. I then moved to Atlanta, Georgia, and I kept doing what I knew how to do best,
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which is sell drugs. And my parents really had no clue that I was doing drugs, but they knew
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my biggest need was no Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior. So they tried to reach out to me. I wanted
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nothing to do with it. Uh, my parents came to visit me one time. I told them to get out.
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And my dad, before he left, gave me his very first Bible and I, they left, he left on our kitchen
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counter and I threw it in the trash can, which, which just really shows how much I hated God.
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I hated their religion. I wanted nothing to do with the Bible. And it was really obvious after that
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visit that my parents knew that I was totally hopeless and completely unreachable. And tell
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me what, tell me what changed. The amazing thing was that they didn't focus upon that hopelessness.
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You know, oftentimes parents, and I don't blame them. It's just things are getting worse and worse
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and worse with their kids. They're prodigal, whatever it is. And it's so easy to give up on hope. And
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I'm, I just praise the Lord that our God is not a God of hopelessness. Our God is a God of hope. And
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they clung to that hope. And even when things were just getting worse and they, uh, enlisted over a
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hundred prayer warriors to pray for me from their church, from the Bible study fellowship group.
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And they, my mother began to pray a bold prayer, which was God do whatever it takes,
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whatever it takes. That's a scary prayer for mother to make, but she was desperate in her desperation.
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She fasted every Monday for seven years. She lasted 39 days on my behalf. She knew it was going to take
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nothing short of a miracle. She spent hours in a prayer closet and she knew it was going to take
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a miracle. So tell me what happened. How did those prayers manifest itself in your life?
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Well, you know, it's a scary prayer for mother to pray, do whatever it takes. I think oftentimes we
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will pray God just, you know, whatever it takes, but like we had that, but right, you know, but
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then we add our little caveat, you know, uh, keep my loved ones safe, keep them, you know, off the street,
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keep them out of prison. But you know what? It might be. And sometimes, especially in those extreme
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cases, it probably does mean maybe being homeless or being put in prison to get our attention. I
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mean, look through the Bible, how many times God used prison to, uh, to, to awaken, to get someone's
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attention or to really sharpen and grow someone. I mean, it's, it's just amazing. And so God, my mom
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was, she was scared, but she just said, I don't know, God, but whatever. And, and God answered her
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prayer with a bang on my door, open up my door and on the front doorstep for 12 federal drug
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enforcement agents, Atlanta police and two different shepherd dogs. So I found myself in
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jail and I called home, you know, that's the last place you want to call. And, you know, I just,
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I was still expecting my parents like their old, old person, you know, and, um, ones of, you know,
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how my mom probably would have responded in the, in the past, like, you know, what did
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you do or you deserve it or whatever. And, and her first words to me, when she had picked
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up the phone was, are you okay? No words of condemnation, just words of unconditional love
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and grace. And I'm, I'm reminded of what Paul says in Romans chapter two, verse four, that
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That's exactly the verse that came to mind for me.
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It's not his anger. You know, it's not God's judgment that brings us to repentance. It's
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his kindness. And, and that's such a good lesson for us, not just parents, for every one of
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us as Christians that in the midst of our, our duty and calling to be a clear and voice
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and to stand for truth, it's still God's kindness. And it should be our kindness that leads people
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Exactly. So how long were you in jail and when did you actually accept Christ?
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Yeah. You know, it's so funny because like my mother, uh, I didn't tell my story here. We
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don't have enough time, but in my, in my first book, uh, the memoir, um, out of a far country,
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a gay son's journey to God, a broken mother short for hope. We kind of tell our, uh, our
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stories, alternating chapters. She wrote chapter one, I chapter two, she, she wrote chapter three,
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but she tells her story of, um, how she was going to end her life and, and, and God just
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amazingly used that, uh, and, and brought her to Christ. And, uh, but for me, so hers was like a,
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a 180 change from dark to lightness, from unbelief to belief, like a one day for me, I kind of say I
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was pretty hard headed. So it took a while. And I think that's why God put me in prison because he
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knew that I was going to fight. I was going to resist in my heart was so hardened. So it was
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prison. Um, and you think, well, how, you know, can things get any worse? So I, well, before I get
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to that, to that three days after I was in prison, I was walking on the cell block and I passed my
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garbage can and I thought, this is my life. Hmm. I went closer and there was something right on top
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of the trash. I bent over, picked it up and it was a Gideon's new Testament. Wow. Back to my cell.
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And I began reading it. That's crazy. So it came full circle from you throwing the Bible away
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to there being a Bible by a trash can, right? So humorous. And so I took it, began reading it. And,
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you know, we, we call the Bible, the gospel, good news, which it is. But as I was reading it,
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it was not good news for me because I was being convicted of my sin and my rebellion against my
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parents, but against the government, against God. And I thought, this is not good.
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Does it feel good? This does not feel good. You know, it's so funny. Um, I got into sovereignty
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before the, the day before I was to be sentenced. Um, I, I was reading and I just happened to read,
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happened to read Psalm 52, which is when David was so convicted and he's saying, ah, against you
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alone have I sinned. And I'm like, that's my worst. It was, it was just amazing. I mean,
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amazing that God was doing that. But for me, it wasn't good news. And I thought, man, this,
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this is not good news. I thought things going to get worse. Well, I was wrong. So a couple of
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weeks after I was incarcerated, I was brought to the nurse's office and the nurse, I just knew
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something wasn't right. She wrote something out of, she was like, she couldn't even speak almost.
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She wrote something on a piece of paper, slithered across the desk to me. And on this piece of
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paper, I saw three letters and a symbol and it read HIV hospital. The days after were dark
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and only, I mean, I, I couldn't even go back to the cell block and cry. You know, I mean,
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I had to be hard like the other inmates and I had to, you know, I just, I just remember that
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night after that whole day of, you know, trying to stay strong, I just wept in my bed. And
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a couple days later, they moved me to another cell or another cell block on my way to transition,
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to transfer to the prison where I was going to do time. And they put me in a cell with no one else.
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I was in a cell all by myself. And I remember it clear as the other day, I was lying there
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and they have metal bunks. So I was lying there and I look at the cold metal bunk above me and there
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was just graffiti, profanity, and someone had a script or something in the corner and it read,
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if you're bored, read Jeremiah 29 11. What? For I know the plans that I have for you,
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declares the Lord, plans to prosper you, not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. And
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you know, I mean, there could have been any verse in the whole Bible and God used that verse
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penned by prophet thousands of years ago to a rebellious nation, Israel, who was in exile,
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that God was saying, I'm going to take you out of exile and I have a plan for you. And God was
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telling me that he also had a plan for me. And you know, Ali, I had no clue, no clue where that plan
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was going to take me, but God just simply gave me enough faith to get through that one day and the
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next and the next. Wow. So, you know, it was the transformation was gradually. You asked,
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when did I become a Christian? Well, I don't think it was at that point, but it was definitely God was
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working on me. So the year after I was, I had all this time on my hands. And so I was reading the
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Bible and I, I was just growing in Christ. And I came across some passage that seemed to condemn
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that core part of who I thought I was, my sexuality. So I went to a chaplain, asked him his opinion.
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And to my surprise, this chaplain told me that the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality. And he gave
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me a book explaining that view. He said, this book explains that view and he gave it to me. And so I'm
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thinking, man, this is great. I can have my cake and I can eat it too. I mean, who wants to change,
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right? I mean, if this is who I am, God has to accept me as who I am. I took that book and I had
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that book in one hand and the Bible in the other. And Ali, let me tell you from a human perspective,
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I had every reason in the world to accept what that book is claiming to justify the way I had been
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living. Yeah. This is the other miracle. It was God's indwelling Holy Spirit that convicted
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me that those assertions were a clear distortion of God, his word, and his unmistakable condemnations
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against same-sex relationships. I couldn't even finish the book and I gave it back to the chaplain.
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That in and of itself is amazing because how many people have I heard of even that have been in
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your same position and when they have the Bible and they have a book that feels good to them and
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caters to what they want to feel and who they think they are, how many people end up putting the Bible
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down and say, no, this book is correct. So it's amazing and it really is just a testament to the
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relentlessness of the Holy Spirit in your life that even in the early stages of your faith, even if
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maybe you weren't even fully a Christian yet, that the Holy Spirit put on your heart that, no, this is the
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way. Walk in it. Exactly. Exactly. It's just, I mean, that's the Holy Spirit's job. I tell, you know,
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it's his, the Holy Spirit's job is to convict us of sin and, and, you know, sometimes, you know,
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people ask, well, can a gay person be gay and a Christian and, you know, or are they going to
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heaven? Are they going to hell? And it's like, I don't know the eternal answer, the answer to this,
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that person's eternity because honestly, that person's story isn't finished yet. You know,
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so God can still work. I mean, tomorrow, next year, but I can say that they're, that they are still
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living in sin and there will be consequences for that. And, and if we're living in sin and there
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is, uh, and sorry, that was my mom. That's okay. No worries. Yeah. And, and if there is, uh, you know,
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if there is the Holy Spirit is abiding in you and there's conviction of sin, then, you know, he's going
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to convict you of, of that sin. And if there isn't that conviction of sin, that there's a possibility
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that the Holy Spirit might not be abiding in that person, which, so we need to be praying for that.
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We need to be praying for the Holy Spirit. We need to be praying for conversion. We need to be
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praying for conviction. Exactly. So how long, when did, when did you get out of jail?
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So it was, um, you know, actually, so it was after that. So I was sentenced to six years.
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Okay. And, um, it was while it was during that first year. So after, you know, I gave the book,
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I just started studying God's word. I, I turned to the Bible alone and, you know, I went to every
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verse, every chapter, every scripture looking for justification. Right. I want to find any type
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of positive affirmation for monogamous, same-sex relationship. And honestly, Allie, I couldn't
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find any, anything that was a positive affirmation. So I was at a turning point, either abandon God and
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his word, live as a gay man, pursue a monogamous, same-sex relationship by allowing my desire. See,
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that's the important thing by allowing my sexual desires, sexual attractions to dictate not only
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who I was, but also how I lived or abandoned pursuing a same-sex relationship by freeing
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myself from my sexuality, by not allowing my sexual desires to control who I am and live
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as a follower of Jesus Christ. My decision was clear and obvious. I follow Jesus. The days,
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weeks, and the months of abstinence passed, and I realized that my sexuality shouldn't be the core
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of who I am. Because I told myself before, God loves me unconditionally, and that's true.
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But as a sinner, don't we like to add to God's, add to God's truth? I added, so therefore God doesn't
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want me to change. But I realized that unconditional love is not the same thing as unconditional approval
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of my behavior. Right. My identity shouldn't be defined by my sexuality. My identity shouldn't
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be defined by my sexual desires. My identity is not gay, ex-gay, or even heterosexual for that matter.
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Because my identity as a child of the living God must be in Jesus Christ alone. Right.
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God says, be holy for I am holy. And you know, I have thought, and I think the church, I felt like the
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church was telling me in the past, before I became a Christian, that if I were to become a Christian,
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that I would have to become heterosexual, that the more sexually attracted to women, the more
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Christian I would be. I realized that even if I had opposite sex attractions, I would still need to
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flee temptation. I would still need to put to death my sin nature every day. So heterosexuality isn't the
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goal. And God never says, be heterosexual, for I am heterosexual. But neither did he say,
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be homosexual, for I am homosexual. God said, be holy, for I am holy. So I always tell people the
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opposite of homosexuality is not heterosexuality, but the opposite of homosexuality is holiness.
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As a matter of fact, the opposite of any sin struggle is holiness. And I would say it was at this point,
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after about a year of my time in prison, that God really convicted me and showed me that it's not just
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about belief, it's not just about knowledge, but it's about surrender. And that meant surrendering
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everything about me. You know, Jesus says, you know, you know, if anyone will come after me,
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he must pick up his cross, you know, and deny himself, pick up his cross daily and follow me.
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And that, for me, that meant denying everything about me that I had identified in the past,
00:23:10.420
including my sexuality. And I think it was at that time that I can say that after I realized that
00:23:17.920
the surrender during that time, that is when I really surrendered my life fully to the Lord Jesus
00:23:23.060
Christ. So that happened. God did another miracle, so many miracles, and he shortened my sentence from
00:23:28.780
six years to three years, which is really unheard of in the federal system. And I, about that time,
00:23:34.660
I had a little over a year left of my prison sentence. So it was about two years into my sentence.
00:23:39.360
And I, I knew that God was calling me to full-time vocational ministry. And I needed to learn more
00:23:46.340
about the Bible. So I called on to my parents, and I told them, send me an application to the Bible
00:23:50.900
college that I only ever heard of, which is in our hometown of Chicago, called Moody Bible Institute.
00:23:55.120
But there were signs on the other line, because I think they both dropped their phones.
00:23:59.080
They mailed the application to me to prison. I filled it out. And, and I, I was so excited until I
00:24:04.600
realized I needed references, not from anybody, but people who knew me as a Christian for at least
00:24:09.580
one year. And I was only being able to persuade a prison chaplain, a prison guard, and another prison
00:24:15.720
inmate to write my references to Moody's. Easily, Moody accepted me. And I always tell people,
00:24:20.680
imagine the surprise of my classmates when I answer their question, what did you do this summer?
00:24:26.640
Well, how long do you have? Wow. That's amazing. And you didn't just go to, uh, Moody Bible Institute.
00:24:33.500
Where else did you go after Moody? Yeah, I went to Wheaton for my graduate school,
00:24:39.280
got my master's in exegesis, and then I got my doctorate of ministry from Bethlehem Seminary
00:24:43.220
in St. Paul. Wow. That's such an amazing transformation. And like you've said over and
00:24:50.620
over again, speaks to God's kindness, his relentless pursuit of us, that there is not a single one of us
00:24:58.800
that are too far off for God to save, that that's exactly why Jesus came, not to save the healthy,
00:25:05.240
but to save the sick. And your testimony is such a powerful example of that. And I love that you have
00:25:11.740
firsthand experience and empathy, not just sympathy, but empathy for one of the most contested topics that
00:25:20.240
we have today. So my question to you is why, why is this so controversial? Why is it so much easier to
00:25:29.820
talk about the, uh, sinful effects of alcoholism or any other sin, but in speaking of homosexuality,
00:25:36.920
it feels like an affront to someone's entire being. Yeah, I think this is a really important question
00:25:44.180
that you asked, Ali. And I think, um, if we can really grasp the, the answer to this, uh, I think
00:25:52.960
we'll, we'll do a much better job in engaging our neighbors, our coworkers, our loved ones, our friends
00:26:00.180
who identify as gay or lesbian. And I think the core issue is identity. As, as I mentioned earlier, um,
00:26:08.960
I think as Christians, the way, when we approach an unbeliever on this topic of sexuality, or we
00:26:17.500
approach a person who identified as gay, and most of them are, I, you know, identify as unbelievers
00:26:22.840
as well, or as non-Christians, uh, we often approach it, uh, thinking of it strictly as sinful
00:26:29.820
behavior, which it is. But I think we need to step back and, uh, recognize before we address
00:26:37.800
behavior, we need to address who we are identity. And, and again, I'm going to mention this next
00:26:42.540
book that I, I, one of my chapters I wrote is, is on identity. And it's one of my first
00:26:48.460
chapters, because I think that's the core issue is identity. Um, it's, that book is called, uh,
00:26:54.780
holy sexuality in the gospel, sex design relationships shaped by God's grand story.
00:26:59.180
And the issue is I know of no other sin issue or sinful behavior where it is so closely linked
00:27:07.920
with identity. This is who I am. So let's say adultery. Um, there's, there's, you know, society
00:27:18.440
is not divided on, I would say most unbelievers don't have that much of an issue with identity
00:27:24.320
or maybe instead of adultery, think of, um, sex before marriage. I would say most unbelievers
00:27:29.720
have nothing. They have no issue with, with sex before marriage as Christians. Um, and maybe as
00:27:35.960
other Judeo Christian, um, uh, you know, religions would, would agree that, and Muslims would probably
00:27:41.440
agree with this, that this is second for marriage is, is a sin. It is not right, but that's not
00:27:49.240
associated with who you are. It's, it's still associated with an action. Uh, drinking alcoholism
00:27:54.620
is, is really associated with an action, which is, well, now I, this is a little bit why I'm a little
00:28:01.120
bit, um, sometimes when people just identify as an alcoholic, I, I don't agree with that. That's,
00:28:06.580
that's what I do. That might be what I struggle with. But in general, uh, sexuality has become such
00:28:12.940
an integral aspect of who we are. I mean, if you think about it, Ali, if you have any of your
00:28:17.220
friends that are gay, when I talk about their sexuality, you almost never hear, uh, this is
00:28:23.420
how I am, or this is what I, when I'm attracted to, this is what I feel, or this is what I do.
00:28:29.720
It's always now, this is who I am. So this shift from what I feel to who I am, or the shift from
00:28:38.460
how I am to who I am has created a radically distorted view of personhood. And that is why
00:28:45.180
when we talk about homosexuality as a sin, and honestly, I don't, to be more nuanced when I
00:28:51.940
talk with my gay friends, I don't use that phrase anymore because that's too vague. Because when I
00:28:56.540
say that, they hear that as saying, you view my whole person, everything about me as sin.
00:29:04.320
As wrong. Yeah. I, yeah. So I need to help them first be able to separate
00:29:09.360
sexuality and me. Yes. Sexuality, my influence is an aspect of what I experienced, but I would argue
00:29:18.640
and not say that sexuality is an aspect of who I am. And I think as Christians, we often has fallen
00:29:25.420
into that as well. I know many people who walk around and say, I'm a straight Christian. I'm like,
00:29:28.400
no, you're not. You're a Christian. You know, your sexual desires and your propensity, even for
00:29:33.820
sexual desires, should not be a part of who you are. That's how we are, not who we are. There's a
00:29:40.720
big difference between that. How I am is the distortion of sin and even my desires and whatever
00:29:47.260
that is. That's how I am, you know, the direction of my sexual desires. But that's not who I am. So the
00:29:55.040
question, of course, then is who am I? And, and, and so clear in Genesis, God created us in his own
00:30:01.100
image. That's who we, that's who we are. That image that was distorted in Genesis three, but then
00:30:05.740
we get Jesus Christ in the new Testament. Then as we get in Colossians one, that says that he is the
00:30:11.080
image of living God and he is the perfect image of God. And so when we come to Christ, what Christ is
00:30:17.460
doing is he's redeeming us, but also restoring the image has that, that has been distorted by sin.
00:30:23.320
What do you say to people? This is something that I am hearing a lot is that, okay, so the Bible
00:30:29.980
doesn't have any specific affirmation of homosexuality, but you know, God is love.
00:30:36.060
Love is important. And if two men or two women love each other unconditionally, why, why isn't that okay?
00:30:43.760
Is God really against love? We should just be loving each other. I think that's another reason too,
00:30:49.960
why it's a hard conversation to have, because you're not just talking about lust. You could
00:30:54.100
be talking about two married men that have loved each other for 25 years, who very, they very much
00:31:00.000
are a part of each other's life and spirit and, and being. And you're saying that that's wrong in
00:31:05.960
God's eyes. How do you break down that kind of redefinition of, of love that even some of the
00:31:13.140
churches latched onto? Yeah. I think that's, that's one of the core issues. Love is love.
00:31:19.700
I think that's usually what we hear all the time. Love is love and let people love who they want to
00:31:24.980
love. And I agree with that statement. Love is love. Uh, we need to let people love who they want to
00:31:30.720
love, but I would argue love does not equal sex. Love does not equal even romance. And if we look at
00:31:38.440
scripture, I mean, even in the new Testament, uh, which was written in Greek, love has different
00:31:45.180
words. So there's actually different categories of love. We find, um, the brotherly love, sisterly
00:31:53.020
love, friendship love. That's phileo. Um, we find the erotic form of love, which is eros. Uh, we have
00:32:01.000
love that is unconditional. That's the agape love. But we also have instances in the old Testament
00:32:08.060
where they talk about love. There's only one word in Hebrew for love, ahava. And that word love in
00:32:14.680
the new Testament, uh, generally is good, but we have some instances that talk about, uh, that love
00:32:21.040
is not good. We have, uh, Judah loved Tamar and that was, that was not good, you know? And, uh, so,
00:32:28.780
so we have these instances of love that is actually not good. So love isn't always love. The right form of
00:32:36.220
love is always good, but I think we need to help people to understand love. So for example,
00:32:42.540
um, there's a brother and a sister, they love each other. That's good. But does that then mean that
00:32:50.900
they should marry one another? Right? I mean, that's what I would kind of push back, you know,
00:32:54.320
a father loves his daughter. That's good. Right. But does that mean then that the father should marry
00:33:01.260
his daughter or have sex with his daughter? So I think we need to help people to tease that out a
00:33:06.360
little bit more, I think. Um, what do I love? Because I mean, I love chocolate, you know, I love
00:33:13.620
my cat. You know, people will say, I love whatever. I love spaghetti. So should you marry spaghetti?
00:33:18.760
Yeah. So love is, we can't just, when we say love is love, that sounds great from a surface level,
00:33:26.700
but let's, let's just recognize first of all, that love is so multifaceted. We use love in so many
00:33:33.980
different ways. And, and unfortunately we have equated the deepest form of love to be marriage
00:33:40.860
or the deepest form of love to be sex. And I kind of pushed back on that a little bit. And some,
00:33:44.820
especially Christians sort of, they're surprised because we hold a traditional marriage, which of
00:33:48.740
course I do. But then I pushed back and I said, actually, marriage is not the highest form of
00:33:53.360
love. If you know, I'm sure Ellie, you're really familiar with justice Kennedy who wrote the majority
00:33:57.480
opinion for the Obergefell decision. And if you look and your listeners and watchers can look
00:34:03.380
online, the very last paragraph of the decision of Obergefell in 2015, he wrote something that was so
00:34:10.560
profound. He said, marriage is the highest ideal of love. And honestly, I think that hit the nail on
00:34:18.340
the head for the way that the world distorts love and marriage. Marriage is good. It's very good. And
00:34:26.920
it's an expression of love, but it is certainly not the highest ideal of love. God is, you know,
00:34:34.000
if you think about it, all the world religions can claim that their God is love or I'm sorry,
00:34:41.020
their God is loving, but no religion, no book claims that their God is love, but our God is
00:34:47.880
Jehovah. Yahweh is love. It's he embodies love. He is, it's an ontological reality of our God. So I
00:34:55.880
think having this discussion, pressing deeper, not arguing, but just having people think through,
00:35:01.540
you know, this definition of love, first of all, when we use love, it's, there's many layers to it.
00:35:06.460
There's many meanings, but also like, well, let's say I'm not, I'm totally for love. Uh, we should,
00:35:12.300
I should love you, Ali, but that doesn't mean that I should have a romantic relationship with you. I
00:35:16.860
mean, that's, that, that's love does not equal sex. Love does not equal romance. God calls us all to
00:35:23.140
love, love your neighbors, yourself is the second greatest commandment, but that doesn't mean I should
00:35:27.620
marry my neighbor. Right. And there are, there are different forms. There are different forms of
00:35:32.460
love that, like you said, are good in certain contexts. And quite honestly, the argument that
00:35:37.600
love is love is a circular, it's a circular argument. Um, because it actually love isn't
00:35:43.500
necessarily love. If your definition of love, isn't what God says love is love is the biblical version
00:35:50.960
of love. Love is what God says that it is. And I can understand why someone who's not a believer
00:35:56.440
would say love is love and say, okay, that's great. But I've actually never thought that that
00:36:01.280
was a great argument to begin with. And you make a good point about it because if love is love, then
00:36:06.380
that, does that mean that you can love your family member the same way that you would love your
00:36:12.500
boyfriend? Or is that, does that mean you can love your pet the same way that you can, of course not.
00:36:17.060
And they would say no, but if love is love, who's to say that it's not, which is why, like you said,
00:36:22.380
it's so important for us as Christians to say, no, love isn't love. Love is what God says that it
00:36:27.860
is. And God is not only love, but love is also God. So, but you know what I mean by that, not in a
00:36:34.160
idolatrous way, but God defines what love is. Um, and I think that's, you know, that's the charge that
00:36:41.440
we have as Christians to be ambassadors of that love, but it's difficult. And I know that you've
00:36:46.520
encountered that as well, but I am so encouraged by your story. If you could tell everyone, um,
00:36:53.060
about your book that's coming out, I think in November and, uh, if they, can they pre-order
00:36:57.620
it? Yes. Okay. So tell us all about that. Sure. Yeah. So my next book is called Holy
00:37:04.460
Sexuality in the Gospel, Sex, Design, and Relationships Shaped by God's Grand Story. It's
00:37:09.740
actually available now on Amazon. Uh, it will be released November 20th. So you can pre-order now,
00:37:15.440
but you won't get it until November 20th or maybe the week before. Um, I'm really excited
00:37:20.540
about it. It's, um, I've worked on it over the past four years. I feel like it's my labor
00:37:26.320
of love, you know, like sweat and tears. It's probably one of the hardest things I've done,
00:37:30.800
but I feel like it's one of the most necessary things in the church right now. And, and basically
00:37:35.200
what it is, is a theology of sexuality. I know people get really scared by that, but it's
00:37:39.520
basically looking at, um, the breadth of scripture, not just the particular pastors that say right
00:37:44.720
and wrong, which I think is important, but I think other authors have done a good job
00:37:47.660
of that. But this is looking at, what does it mean to be human? What does it mean to
00:37:51.060
be created in God's image? What does it mean to have a sinful nature? And how does that
00:37:55.700
impact our understanding of sex design relationships? I have a couple of chapters on marriage, a couple
00:38:00.160
of chapters on singleness, a couple of chapters on holiness and discipleship. So, um, I'm really
00:38:05.100
excited about it. And if people want to know more about my ministry, just my website is
00:38:10.040
christopheryuan.com. Um, and, uh, you know, I'm also on social media as well. If they want
00:38:16.400
to follow me there. Yes. Where can they find you on social media? Yeah. So Twitter is at
00:38:21.000
christopheryuan.com and Facebook, my ministry page is facebook.com slash christopheryuan.
00:38:27.460
Okay. Perfect. Well, I'm really excited for my audience to hear this. I know that they, um, are
00:38:34.120
really going to appreciate it. You did a great job of giving us perspective and thank you for
00:38:38.180
your vulnerability and sharing your story. And, um, for all of the lives that I know that you're
00:38:43.440
touching just by showing them what Christ has done in your life. Well, thank you, Allie so much for
00:38:48.060
having me on. Yes. Thank you. Okay. I hope that you guys enjoyed that. Um, if you have questions,
00:38:53.680
uh, for Dr. Yuan, please email them to me, Allie at the conservative millennial blog.com. I, or I mean,
00:39:00.400
you can reach out to him directly if you want to do that as well. He gave his information,
00:39:04.640
um, in the interview, but I would love to see if Dr. Yuan would indulge us by answering some of our
00:39:12.000
further questions. I actually realized after I interviewed him that there are a few things that
00:39:16.500
I just wish that I had asked him. So, um, I would love to ask him some more questions. So maybe we can
00:39:21.660
get him back for a Q and a. So if you have any specific questions, um, if you don't want to reach
00:39:26.880
out to him directly, send them to me and then I'll have a log of questions and hopefully I can get him
00:39:31.240
back for another interview and we can do a kind of Q and a thing. I think that would be really fun.
00:39:36.640
Okay. Next on the docket, North Korea. Um, I have a not so popular conservative take on this,
00:39:43.560
meaning that most Trump voters probably disagree with me. Uh, so in case you didn't know,
00:39:49.180
president Trump met with Kim Jong-un, the dictator of North Korea. Uh, they met in Singapore this week
00:39:54.600
to discuss denuclearization of the Korean peninsula, which is unprecedented. He was the first sitting
00:40:01.080
president to meet with a North Korean ruler with the North Korean ruler. Uh, the meeting apparently
00:40:06.920
went very well. They signed this document that culminated what the U S called comprehensive and
00:40:12.300
very productive talks. And here are the four things they apparently agreed upon. Uh, the United States
00:40:19.540
and the DPRK commit to establish new U S DPRK relations in accordance with the desire of the peoples
00:40:27.540
of the two countries for peace and prosperity. That's number one. Number two, the United States
00:40:32.720
and the DPRK will join their efforts to build a lasting and stable peace regime on the Korean
00:40:37.300
peninsula. Number three, reaffirming the April 27th, 2018 Panmunjom declaration. The DPRK commits to work
00:40:45.620
toward complete denuclearization of the Korean peninsula. Number four, the United States and the DPRK commit
00:40:52.020
to recovering POW MIA remains, including the immediate rep, uh, repatriation of those already
00:41:00.140
identified. Um, so, okay, that all sounds great, but to me, it also sounds pretty vague. Now I'm not a
00:41:08.000
foreign policy expert, but I, I didn't see a lot of specificity in that. Let's also remember that North
00:41:16.140
Korea has been promising denuclearization forever and they haven't actually done it. So I just can't say
00:41:22.000
quite yet that this was this huge, gigantic wind that most conservatives and Trump supporters are
00:41:27.420
saying that it was now. I hope that it is. I hope president Trump is extremely successful in this,
00:41:33.800
but the other issue I have is how president Trump is now talking about and treating Kim Jong-un.
00:41:39.960
Every conservative, uh, media outlet today and yesterday had a heyday making fun of the outlets
00:41:46.980
like CNN and MSNBC for having any problem whatsoever with this meeting. They were making
00:41:52.660
fun of these liberal outlets for criticizing, uh, the American flag being next to the North Korean
00:41:57.620
flag. But you know what? Maybe for the first time in my life, I actually agree with the liberal media
00:42:04.120
on this, at least, at least in part, um, in that I absolutely cringed seeing the American flag by the
00:42:11.140
North Korean flag. I cringed watching president Trump all chummy with Kim Jong-un. I hate everything
00:42:17.800
that he has said about Kim Jong-un, that he's this great guy, that he's a smart guy, that Kim Jong-un
00:42:22.700
loves his people, loves his country. Okay. This is a guy and a nation who has hundreds of thousands of
00:42:30.440
North Koreans in prison camps who forces his own people to fertilize their crops with human feces,
00:42:36.080
starves his own people, allows no freedom of speech, no freedom of religion at all. People
00:42:41.100
are executed for speaking or worshiping in a way that doesn't comply with the state. If you look
00:42:45.960
at an aerial view of North and South Korea at night, you will see that South Korea is lit up
00:42:50.580
because, you know, it's a normal country because its cities actually have lights. And then you will
00:42:56.680
see that North Korea is completely dark except for the capital where Kim Jong-un himself is. He is the
00:43:01.680
only one with noticeable electricity. This is a guy who has brutally murdered his own family members.
00:43:09.280
Remember, this is also a guy who sent back one of our own, Otto Warmbier, a 22-year-old kid,
00:43:14.940
deformed, incapacitated, unable to see or speak, tortured to the brink of death, sent him back to
00:43:20.600
his family to die. A few days later, he murdered a citizen of the United States, someone who could have
00:43:27.360
been any one of our friends. And now Kim Jong-un is a good guy who loves his country. Now, I hear that
00:43:34.480
the Warmbiers released some really nice statement about it all, which great for them. Honestly, God
00:43:39.440
bless them and God be with them. But I cannot imagine that this is easy for them to watch if it's not easy
00:43:45.700
for me to watch. Kim Jong-un is evil. He is satanic. He is not a stitch nicer than Hitler. If we were
00:43:53.780
making a deal with Hitler or Stalin or Mao, would we call him a great guy? Would we say, wow, not too
00:44:00.180
many people could have accomplished what Mao has accomplished? That's Stalin. He really loves his
00:44:05.100
country. Hitler sure loves his people. I have a special bond with Hitler now. No, no, we wouldn't.
00:44:12.700
When Deville Chamberlain of UK acquiesced to Germany and flattered Hitler through the Munich
00:44:17.760
agreement in 1938, how did that go for everyone? Not that well. Germany got checklist of all
00:44:23.500
Czechoslovakia, then invaded Poland a year later, leading the UK to declare war on Germany.
00:44:29.120
You don't appease terrorists. They're all the same. They're rats. You don't have to make them feel
00:44:33.600
good about themselves. Now, I'm not saying that this deal is exactly like Deville Chamberlain and
00:44:39.280
Hitler. It's not. It's more like Reagan and Gorbachev of the Soviet Union. But even though
00:44:44.760
Reagan and Gorbachev did eventually become friends, Reagan still called the Soviet Union the evil
00:44:49.900
empire, Reagan still was clear about his hatred of communism. And I understand that this is probably
00:44:55.780
Trump flattering him in order to make denuclearization more plausible. I mean, that's
00:45:00.180
exactly what he's trying to do. I understand that he's buttering him up to make sure he actually
00:45:05.020
follows through on his end of the deal. But in my opinion, it's just too much. I just don't think
00:45:11.260
that America, the greatest superpower in the world, needs to kiss the you know what of a nation who we
00:45:17.640
could literally obliterate with one push of a button if we wanted to. Now, all this to say,
00:45:24.580
I hope that this works. I hope that I'm wrong. If by stroking the ego of Kim Jong-un, if by placing
00:45:30.940
the American flag next to the North Korean flag, denuclearization happens, if the egregious human
00:45:36.720
rights violations stop, if we can honestly keep the North Korea in check and the people of North Korea
00:45:44.480
are freed, then all of this will be worth it. All of it. If liberation happens in North Korea,
00:45:49.700
then I won't care about any of this. And I will say, wow, all that stuff that I worried about and
00:45:54.420
complained about was petty nonsense. I just don't know if that's going to be the case, considering
00:45:59.100
how many times they've promised peace, but have failed to fulfill that promise.
00:46:03.860
So we will see. I would say that my feelings are of cautious optimism, whereas it seems like a lot
00:46:12.420
of conservatives are just completely optimistic. And I just don't know if we have the logical
00:46:16.500
or historical grounds to be that optimistic. OK, one thing to say, actually, probably kind of a few
00:46:24.040
things to say about the horrific and very tragic suicides of Anthony Bourdain and Kate Spade.
00:46:29.500
I am so sad for them, their families, their kids, everyone who loves them. The trend of increasing
00:46:38.360
suicides, especially in this country, is really troubling. And there are all kinds of different
00:46:43.680
explanations for it. And it's always interesting as Christians to watch a non-Christian world grapple
00:46:49.500
with questions that Christians have had the answer to since Christ came to earth. I've heard people say
00:46:54.540
that it's mental health. I've heard people say that it's loneliness. It's copycat syndrome,
00:46:58.600
where you hear someone who committed suicide and you're kind of obsessed with it. And so you follow
00:47:04.540
through yourself. I think all of these things are part of it. I don't think they're completely
00:47:09.100
misguided. I've even heard people say that political correctness and victimhood have something
00:47:14.440
to do with it. And on that one, I just don't see the logical or scientific correlation personally.
00:47:20.200
But regardless, ultimately, all of these explanations are mostly grasping at straws.
00:47:25.080
We know that the human heart is sick. It is desperately wicked, the Bible says. There is
00:47:30.620
a void in all of us that can only be filled by something bigger than ourselves. There is
00:47:35.860
a longing in all of us to be attached to a greater purpose, to have meaning beyond making money,
00:47:41.680
becoming famous, being successful at work. Loneliness is a part of it. Tragedy can cause it.
00:47:47.820
That purposelessness does play a major role, but the human heart will never be satisfied without
00:47:54.040
knowing the love of the one who made it. And that's Jesus. And as I've said before, I know there
00:48:00.320
are plenty of people who are not Christians who are not depressed or suicidal. And there are people
00:48:06.940
who are Christians who are depressed or suicidal. But if all of us, no matter what our religion is,
00:48:13.660
find in ourselves this longing for something bigger, something transcendent, this feeling of
00:48:18.680
being fully accepted, fully known, fully loved, to play a part in the grand story of history,
00:48:24.660
shouldn't that tell us something? If we all have a longing for something greater, doesn't that point
00:48:31.400
to the fact that there is something greater? I mean, it's like that C.S. Lewis quote, if we find within
00:48:36.960
ourselves a longing for something beyond this world, that means that there is something beyond this
00:48:41.080
world. And that's a paraphrase. If there was nothing more than this life, then you would think
00:48:47.140
that the people who have gotten the most out of life, like Kate Spade and Anthony Bourdain,
00:48:52.240
would be the happiest people in the world. Why is it that the rich and famous are so consistently
00:48:58.180
dissatisfied? Because they've tasted all the world can offer and they still know it's not enough.
00:49:05.300
They've gotten to the peak of life. They've looked around and they've said,
00:49:08.400
this is it. This is all we've got. And the answer we Christians know is no, it's not it.
00:49:16.720
That's the whole point of this life, that this life is not it. The point is Jesus, the maker and
00:49:23.180
satisfier of our souls, the only one who sees our innermost beings and can set it free.
00:49:28.940
Jesus is the only religious figure in all of history who, instead of saying, okay,
00:49:35.600
here's how you get to God. He said, no, I am coming down to you. Do you know any other faith
00:49:43.860
in the world that's actually predicated on human weakness rather than human strength that emphasizes
00:49:48.960
what humans cannot do rather than what they can? Do you know another religion whose most famous
00:49:54.920
missionaries and adherents as written about in the Bible are quite as messed up and as ragtag
00:50:01.360
and as unexpected as ours are? Do you know another religion that celebrates human frailty that offers
00:50:08.100
an eternal solution to everything the heart longs for that offers peace, purpose, fulfillment,
00:50:14.040
community, healing, hope. Jesus is the cure for the sickness of the soul. Jesus is the final answer to
00:50:21.820
all of it. Now, this is not to say that we should reject modern medicine. This is not to say that there
00:50:28.600
are no practical solutions to depression, like being more involved in your community,
00:50:34.560
staying in touch with your family. But it is to say that ultimately not a single one of us will
00:50:40.780
ever be satisfied or saved without knowing Christ. Okay. One final thing that doesn't have to do with
00:50:47.560
any of this. This is just random, something I've noticed and have been thinking about lately.
00:50:52.500
Um, this is a thing I just don't get, which like I said, has been in Indian section of my podcast in the
00:50:58.640
back in the past. Um, but today it's actually just something that annoys me that I think that we can all
00:51:04.460
get better at, including myself. Um, so there's this trend these days, I think promulgated by celebrities
00:51:09.700
and songs and just pop culture in general. And that's this trend of blocking out the haters. It goes along
00:51:16.720
with the trend of, you know, loving yourself and being super self-confident. Um, I think that's
00:51:23.560
good to some degree. You can't listen to all the stupid negativity that people throw your way,
00:51:29.080
especially on the internet, or else you will just be in a puddle of insecurity all day. I know that
00:51:35.000
from firsthand experience, you can't, but I do worry that people use this phrase and use this mentality
00:51:41.720
as an excuse to silence legitimate criticism. Newsflash, not everyone who disagrees with you
00:51:49.160
as a hater and some criticism actually needs to be listened to. So have discernment to know the
00:51:55.360
difference between ignorant hate on the internet and real actual feedback that you might need to
00:52:00.400
take in. You might need to listen to it might need to apply to your life. I also know firsthand that
00:52:05.420
that is very difficult to do. It is much easier and feels much better to say that anyone who
00:52:10.760
criticizes me is just a hater and just wants to see me fail. Sometimes that's not true. And to
00:52:16.960
perpetually think that way is to stunt your own growth. It's a sign, in my opinion, of immaturity
00:52:22.520
and hardheadedness. It's kind of like how a toddler treats everything that their parents say as, um,
00:52:30.220
preventing them from being happy. We shouldn't think that way if we actually want to grow up and we want
00:52:35.500
to get better at what we do, which we all should want that. Um, okay, that is all for today.
00:52:40.760
Love y'all so much. Thank you for listening every week. It's just, it's, it's a joy to do this
00:52:46.480
podcast with you guys. And I love your feedback. As you guys know, I'm taking a break from social
00:52:50.580
media this week, so I apologize for my lack of Instagram stories, but I will be back next week.
00:52:56.260
I will also be at Turning Point USA's YWLS Young Women's Leadership Summit this weekend. I'm speaking
00:53:03.060
Saturday morning at 11 AM. So I really hope that you guys are coming. Um, I'm so excited about it.
00:53:09.740
Uh, follow me also on social media if you want, if you don't totally cool, check out my videos on
00:53:14.920
CRTV.com, email me feedback or any questions that you have. Leave me, leave me a positive review.
00:53:21.460
If you want, share this with your friends if you want. Um, and I think that's it. Okay. Have a great