Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - June 22, 2022


REPLAY： How to Share the Gospel with LGBTQ People ｜ Guest： Becket Cook


Episode Stats

Length

1 hour and 2 minutes

Words per Minute

175.8138

Word Count

10,975

Sentence Count

652

Misogynist Sentences

1

Hate Speech Sentences

35


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.560 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Tuesday. This episode is brought to you by our friends
00:00:05.880 at Good Ranchers. Go to goodranchers.com slash Allie. That's goodranchers.com slash Allie.
00:00:21.340 All right, guys, we've got a very fun show for you today. We are talking to Beckett Cook.
00:00:26.540 He is the host of the Beckett Cook Show. He wrote a book called A Change in Affection a few years ago,
00:00:32.920 and that is about his conversion to Christianity and going from an actively gay lifestyle
00:00:38.580 to now an obedient Christian lifestyle. And so we're going to talk about that. I'm sure that
00:00:45.180 there's plenty in the conversation that some people will find very controversial. But for
00:00:50.300 the majority of my audience, you are just going to be incredibly encouraged. The power and the grace
00:00:58.740 of God in redeeming people's lives. I just love hearing people's testimony. There is such power
00:01:04.520 in a testimony, and it just reminds you of the sweetness and the goodness of the gospel,
00:01:09.000 the faithfulness of God, the relentlessness of God to pursue whomever he is going to pursue in
00:01:14.860 whatever ways he is going to pursue them. I love that about God, and I love hearing individual
00:01:21.160 stories of that redemption in their own lives. And so you're going to be so encouraged. And then
00:01:26.540 we're also going to ask him some questions towards the end of the conversation.
00:01:30.440 We're going to ask him, okay, do you attend the gay wedding of a friend as a Christian? Do you use
00:01:36.440 preferred pronouns as a Christian? What about that verse in 1 Corinthians that says that we're not even
00:01:42.160 supposed to associate with someone who calls themselves a Christian and is sexually immoral
00:01:47.160 in any way or who is an idolater? It lists a whole host of sins. What does that actually look like?
00:01:52.360 Do we exclude them from our lives? How do we love these people in a way that is truthful but also
00:01:57.640 gracious? We're going to get into all of that. And before we do, I do want to say that yesterday I
00:02:04.000 was in Louisiana. Go listen to yesterday's episode that we had already had pre-recorded with a
00:02:09.280 professor. You're going to love it. You're going to absolutely love yesterday's conversation if you
00:02:15.080 haven't listened to it. Another possibly controversial conversation because we talk about race in America
00:02:21.020 and we talk about the claim of systemic racism. And he has some non-mainstream views about that that are
00:02:31.600 very interesting. And I know you're going to learn a lot from it. But yesterday we were in Louisiana.
00:02:38.300 I went to Monroe, Louisiana. And I was on the Unashamed podcast with Phil Robertson and with
00:02:47.280 Al Robertson. And you're going to love that episode whenever it comes out. I don't know when it's going
00:02:52.920 to come out. But then also I interviewed them for my show. That episode will come out at a later day.
00:02:58.280 But I just love them so much. I know a lot of you guys love them. I posted yesterday on Instagram
00:03:05.300 that I was going to Louisiana. A lot of you were asking me what I was doing in your state. I was
00:03:09.740 there very quickly. Flew there yesterday morning. And then guys, my flight got canceled. I got to the
00:03:16.960 airport and my flight home got canceled. And I had to drive home last night. And that was kind of crazy.
00:03:22.340 But I'm here. I'm safe and sound to bring this content to you today. So yeah, lots to look forward
00:03:30.020 to. Lots to look forward to in Alleyland for different interviews coming out. But let's get
00:03:33.760 to this interview. Without further ado, here is our new friend, Beckett Cook.
00:03:43.300 Beckett, thank you so much for joining us. I've been wanting to have you on for a really long time.
00:03:48.040 So I'm so glad this worked out. Can you tell everyone who may not know who you are and what you do?
00:03:53.220 Thank you, Allie. Yeah, I live in Los Angeles. That's where I am right now. And I, for many,
00:04:02.540 many years, I was a production designer in Hollywood. But when my book came out in 2019,
00:04:08.980 I kind of lost. I kind of got canceled in Hollywood. Because my book is pretty scandalous. So
00:04:14.600 that's that. So now I'm pretty much in full time ministry. I kind of travel around the country,
00:04:21.420 speak at conferences, at churches. And I'm writing another book. And I also have a YouTube show called
00:04:27.900 The Beckett Cook Show. So that all keeps me pretty busy. And I went to seminary in 2014
00:04:33.520 at Talbot School of Theology at Biola. So I knew God was kind of pulling me out of the production
00:04:40.220 design world and into more kind of full time ministry. So that's where I am now.
00:04:44.740 And for people who have no idea, they're coming into this just having heard of Beckett Cook,
00:04:49.880 what was your book about? Why was it so scandalous?
00:04:53.980 Scandal. So it's called A Change of Affection. And my affections dramatically changed 12 years ago.
00:05:01.200 So when I was very young, I don't know, in elementary school, probably fifth or sixth grade,
00:05:09.720 I started to realize that I was attracted to the same sex, which was a really strange phenomenon to
00:05:16.480 happen when you're a kid in Dallas, Texas, when it's very much taboo to be gay, or even to have
00:05:22.780 those feelings. And so I, I kind of wrestled with that and sort of had this like external life where
00:05:31.700 I was friends and popular with people in school. But then on the inside, I was dealing with this
00:05:36.200 kind of struggle and didn't really know how to process it. And then in high school, that's when
00:05:41.000 kind of the dam broke, because I ended up becoming best friends with someone who at Jesuit who was
00:05:47.900 going through the same thing. And we started going out in Dallas to gay bar. I mean, I was like 14 and
00:05:53.520 15 years old, going to gay bars in Cedar Springs, Oklahoma, and going to the Star Club and all these
00:06:01.140 parents, did they have any idea what was going on?
00:06:03.940 No, well, not really, because I was the youngest of eight kids. And so by the time my parents got
00:06:14.200 to me, they were just very hands off. They're like, just do whatever. We don't even know what
00:06:18.460 you're doing. And, you know, I was making straight A's in school. So they didn't really, they didn't
00:06:24.260 really pay attention for better, for worse, I think for worse. But so I had this kind of leeway to move
00:06:30.020 about the cabin freely. And, and so, and so I explored gay culture in high school, I was pretty
00:06:37.900 precocious. And, and then the same thing, I went away to college, and the same thing happened, I became
00:06:43.900 best friends with somebody who was dealing with this, you know, same sex attraction, we came out to each
00:06:50.040 other. And again, I had like a confidant and a, you know, partner in crime and in college, where we could
00:06:56.480 go out and no one really knew. And in high school and in college, I was in the closet. And I never
00:07:03.820 thought being gay was kind of a permanent thing in my life. I thought it was just gonna, I thought,
00:07:10.320 you know, it was weird. It was like, this is what I'm feeling now. I'm just gonna go with these
00:07:13.960 desires. But eventually, I'm gonna, you know, have a wife and kids. But so I never really thought
00:07:19.460 sorry to interrupt, but you were Catholic, because you you went to Jesuit, you said, which for those who
00:07:24.700 don't know, that's a Catholic school in Dallas. So you were raised Catholic.
00:07:29.180 I was raised Roman Catholic. Yes. Gotcha.
00:07:32.260 I know. Yeah, big Catholic family. And so, and then, and then after college, that's when
00:07:40.220 after college, I moved to Tokyo with my best friend. And that's when it became really my identity. Because
00:07:48.180 while I was in Japan, while I was in Tokyo, my roommate invited his friend from Texas,
00:07:54.120 to come visit us. And his friend and I ended up falling in love. And I can't say his name,
00:08:02.400 but it was a guy. And, and we ended up falling in love. And that's when it was the first time I'd
00:08:08.140 ever had that experience. And that's when it was like, Okay, this is definitely who I am. This is my
00:08:14.200 identity. It's immutable. This is the way this is my life now. And I came out to everyone,
00:08:21.120 I came out to my family, my friends. And, and, and, and that's when I just kind of that's when it
00:08:27.180 became my full, full identity. Yeah. And what does that feel like the feeling of going from Okay,
00:08:36.380 this is just kind of maybe a fleeting feeling that I have, or this is a phase that I'm going through.
00:08:41.200 You said in high school, and maybe some in college, you thought, Oh, I'm still gonna grow up and get
00:08:46.540 married to a woman and have kids. What was that transition like? And why do you think that
00:08:52.220 transition happened from? These are just some feelings that I have that may or may not be
00:08:57.500 fleeting to Okay, this is now permanently, immutably who I am. Was it the falling in love
00:09:03.700 that made you feel that way? Or were there some other things going on that kind of made you say,
00:09:08.580 Nope, this is this is me.
00:09:10.140 I mean, a part of it was the culture around me, because it was becoming more and more accepted
00:09:16.460 in the culture. But it the tipping point really was the falling in love aspect, because that's,
00:09:23.640 that's when I just felt like, Okay, this is, I'm all in. And I, you know, I didn't, I no longer cared
00:09:31.080 about what people thought of me, or I no longer cared about this, this, because there was still there
00:09:36.980 was kind of stigma attached to it in the early 90s. And so, so I but I didn't care. And I was just
00:09:43.440 like, I told everyone, and I told my, you know, my family, they, they, my parents, reaction was
00:09:49.520 actually really lovely. And again, part of it was because I was the youngest of eight, but
00:09:54.300 they were just very calm, they and they believe they believed that homosexual behavior was sinful.
00:10:01.660 I mean, they were very clear on that. But they were super loving to me, in spite of that. And
00:10:09.480 and they didn't really, you know, there were no kind of dramatic scenes of like throwing me out of
00:10:14.580 the house or, you know, quoting scripture to me, because they already knew that what they knew that
00:10:20.400 I knew what they believed. So there was no need for that. So they were just over the years, they were
00:10:25.260 so, so sweet, and lovely to me, which I really, really appreciate. But, but and then I and then
00:10:32.020 after that, after, you know, coming back from Tokyo, I moved to Los Angeles in 1993. And that's when
00:10:40.060 that's when it kind of really, really got shifted into high gear. Because when I got to LA, I got into
00:10:48.880 this, you know, really fun group of friends, all from the East Coast, Ivy League schools, like really
00:10:53.820 smart, ambitious. There were straight people, gay people. And though all those friends now run
00:11:01.500 Hollywood, they literally create all the content that the world sees now, which is crazy. And,
00:11:08.520 and so once I got into this group of friends, I mean, and I was in Los Angeles, I just felt like
00:11:15.660 so liberated and free. And like, this is, you know, this is my life. And I cycled through five
00:11:22.000 really serious relationships with guys, live in, we live together. And so, and I, and I, we,
00:11:29.780 you know, we did everything in Hollywood, because all of my friends were in the business, they were
00:11:35.260 aspiring writers, actors, directors, producers. We all wanted the same things. We wanted to make it
00:11:41.840 big in Hollywood, which they all did in a big, big way. And we all wanted to have these kind of
00:11:48.420 extraordinary experiences, which we were having in spades, because we were, we were always invited
00:11:53.660 to the, you know, movie premieres every week, and to the Oscars, the Emmys, the Golden Globes, and
00:11:58.500 the after parties, and the Vanity Fair parties, and all these, I was always kind of just invited to
00:12:05.120 things. Like I was, I would end up at Ariana Huffington's house all the time, you know, for cocktails,
00:12:09.760 or having dinner with Tom Hanks and Meryl Streep, you know, and just all these things. So I was having
00:12:16.300 these great experiences. And our other thing was, we all wanted to find the one, true love. And so
00:12:22.260 we were always kind of on the, on the search for that. And, and, you know, I, as I said, every time
00:12:28.540 I would get into a relationship with a guy, I'd be like, okay, this is the one. Yeah, he's going to
00:12:33.280 save me. This is like, you know, this is amazing. And of course, it would end in two years. It was
00:12:38.900 always like the shelf life of two years on these relationships. Yeah, I think a lot of people can
00:12:43.580 relate to that. Um, and when you say that, you know, you thought that this person was going to
00:12:48.960 save you, what, I mean, what do you mean by that? What were some of those feelings? Why do you think,
00:12:55.260 and maybe this is just how everyone feels when they're searching for the one, but why do you
00:13:00.160 think you felt like, oh my gosh, I have to find the one. It's a form of like romantic salvation that
00:13:05.300 I'm seeking. What do you think that was in you that kind of created that desperate longing?
00:13:10.520 I think it was a longing for purpose, really, because I had no, I knew, I knew that God was
00:13:16.780 never an option for me because I was gay. So I was very clear. Okay. So you were not,
00:13:21.280 you didn't even identify as a Christian or a Catholic at this point?
00:13:25.140 No. And even growing up in the Catholic church, I never, I never connected with it at all. I just
00:13:30.920 thought it was kind of theater, you know, and, and I, I never felt any connection really to God
00:13:37.960 growing up. And so, uh, so yeah, I, I think I was looking for meaning and purpose in my life because
00:13:46.620 I, that, and the only way without God, the only kind of purpose you can get is either through your
00:13:52.680 career or through a relationship. I mean, or I don't, I mean, there may be other ways, but those
00:13:57.540 are the main ways. And so that's kind of what I threw myself into was my career and, and was in
00:14:05.320 these relationships. And I thought, and especially in the relationships, I thought the guy would,
00:14:11.480 you know, somehow really give my life this like purpose and meaning. And, and it felt that way,
00:14:17.780 you know, at least in the beginning of those relationships, it felt like I had some sort of
00:14:23.460 purpose, but then it would have of course vanished over time. Yeah. So you are in, what stage of your
00:14:30.200 life were you in twenties, thirties still in my twenties. Yeah. Okay. So that's when you were
00:14:34.740 living in LA with this great group of people, you were going through a series of really serious
00:14:40.660 relationships. And at what point did you realize, okay, these people that I'm, it sounds like also,
00:14:46.900 in addition to like wanting purpose, you really wanted to be known. We all want that intimacy. You
00:14:51.980 want to be fully known by someone and fully loved for everything you are. I think that is a desire that
00:14:58.140 all of us have. And sorry, maybe your disconnect from God was also causing you to kind of seek that
00:15:07.660 intimacy and that fully knownness in someone else. But when did you realize, okay, I've tried that
00:15:15.380 several times and it's not actually giving me the thing that I'm looking for. It's not actually
00:15:19.400 fulfilling me. Well, you know, in these kinds of relationships, especially in gay male, I think
00:15:26.980 especially in gay male relationships, there's this, it's not unconditional love. It's always
00:15:34.620 quid pro quo. And it's always kind of like, as long as I have a great career and you have great abs,
00:15:40.920 like we're good to go. But like the second you slip, like, you know, a lot of my friends won Oscars
00:15:46.400 and, uh, and golden globes and all these things. And it's like, suddenly, like if my friend Dustin
00:15:52.000 Lance Black won the Oscar for the movie milk, then suddenly he's like, okay, like he, you know,
00:15:58.540 the quid pro quo changes. So, so, um, it was always that kind of pressure. I, when I was in these
00:16:05.260 relationships, I always felt like I was walking on eggshells and that, you know, just the one wrong
00:16:10.820 move and it would be over. And that was actually the case. And there was a lot of infidelity, a lot of,
00:16:17.940 you know, lying and drama. And so I think, you know, after the fifth relationship, I just kind
00:16:26.200 of was like, I mean, I was already starting to feel this in general in my life. I was just kind
00:16:31.520 of like, is that all there is to a fire? Is that all there is? You know, I, I was getting to that
00:16:37.160 point of the law of diminishing returns we're setting in. And I just felt like, you know, I've
00:16:44.540 been doing this for so long. I've been going to, you know, I would go to parties. I would go to
00:16:50.120 Prince's house, you know, for a private concert in his backyard and all these things. And, and I would
00:16:56.400 go to fashion week in New York and Paris. And I thought, you know, for a long time, those shiny
00:17:01.380 objects sustained me and, and my friends sustained me because they were so fun and interesting and,
00:17:06.880 and smart. And, but after, you know, cause even since high school, after like 20 years of doing
00:17:15.200 these kinds of things and purchasing these kinds of shiny objects, you just start to, I, in my life,
00:17:22.740 I just started to feel like I can't do this anymore. Like this isn't going to sustain me for the rest of
00:17:29.320 my life. I don't know what, I don't know what I'm going to do, but I can't keep just doing this.
00:17:34.600 So tell me what it was like hearing the gospel, maybe for the first time or in a real way,
00:17:40.920 the first time or understanding it and tell me about becoming a Christian when and how and why?
00:17:47.380 Yeah, well, it started in Paris in March of 2009. I was at fashion week. I used to go to fashion
00:17:54.380 weeks a lot in New York and Paris. And so I was at fashion week. I went to a bunch of the runway shows.
00:18:00.520 I went to a bunch and they have after parties and I was at an Stella McCartney's after party and
00:18:06.280 everyone from the fashion world was there. Kanye was there. Just, it was like, and people were
00:18:12.120 dancing and drinking champagne and it was at this nightclub in the middle of Paris called Regine. And
00:18:17.580 I just, that's when it really hit me that, that I just felt overwhelmed with emptiness.
00:18:25.440 And I just kind of like felt like this cannot be my life. I like, this was fun. This was a great,
00:18:33.140 you know, I had a great time for a long time, but this cannot be my life anymore. And I, I ghosted the
00:18:37.740 party. I went back to my, my, the apartment I had rented and I was kind of up all night in a panic
00:18:44.840 about my future. And then I, you know, I get back to LA a couple of days later and then cut to six
00:18:52.480 months later, I'm with my best friend who is gay. And, and we, you know, we used to do the kind of,
00:18:59.680 we used to hang out all the time, like every, almost every night and every weekend. And,
00:19:03.580 and on the weekends we would go to brunch in Venice. We would go shopping in West Hollywood
00:19:08.400 or Beverly Hills, which is gay church brunch and shopping. And then we would go to this coffee shop
00:19:13.440 in Silver Lake and hang out. Cause it was like, it was kind of, you know, it was always kind of active
00:19:19.720 and crowded and fun people, interesting people and friends we knew. So we were there that day and,
00:19:26.640 and, uh, we were chatting and we know suddenly we, we look over and the table next to us
00:19:32.640 is a group of young people with Bible, physical Bibles on the table.
00:19:37.520 And we, I had never seen a Bible in public in LA in my life. So it was a, it was a shocking sight.
00:19:45.200 And my friend was, was shocked too. We were, we were both like, what is going on? Like, this is
00:19:50.180 bizarre, especially in Silver Lake, which is a very kind of progressive enclave of LA. And so
00:19:56.580 we were half repulsed and half intrigued by them. And so, and why were you, why do you think you felt
00:20:05.440 some feelings of repulsion?
00:20:09.460 Because it was just like, because historically for, you know, for, for us, evangelical Christians,
00:20:18.500 and we just, I assume they were just evangelical Christians. You could kind of tell. So I,
00:20:22.700 evangelical Christians were always the enemy in, in gay culture. And so, so that was, it was kind of
00:20:29.800 residual revolt. It wasn't really, I wasn't like super revolted by them, but it was just kind of that
00:20:35.280 residual, like, Ooh, like Christians. But then I was kind of like, wait a minute. I, I don't really
00:20:41.580 know what my life is about. Maybe they have some answers. And so it's like a Christian's fantasy
00:20:46.680 come true. I turned to them and I'm like, Hey, um, are you guys Christians? And what's the gospel?
00:20:52.800 No way.
00:20:53.680 By that time in my life, I had, I had really, by that time in my life, I was a practical atheist. Like I,
00:21:02.340 I honestly believed that the Bible was an ancient myth, like any other ancient myth. I, I, I believe
00:21:09.240 God was a fairy tale. I didn't, I didn't believe in it. And, but when I saw them, it just, I just felt
00:21:17.860 like, you know, what have I got to lose? Cause of, because of that night in Paris six months before,
00:21:22.720 I just thought, you know, maybe I just want to talk to them and see what they say. And so I,
00:21:27.660 I honestly didn't even remember like what the, the, what the gospel was really, I mean,
00:21:35.120 I kind of knew obviously vaguely, but I just needed to hear it. So I turned to them and I just
00:21:40.600 said, you know, what do you guys believe? Because I grew up Roman Catholic. I don't really remember.
00:21:44.700 And they said, well, we go to an evangelical church in Hollywood on sunset. And, and, you know,
00:21:50.760 they told me, they told me basically the gospel and this is what we believe. And, and of course I get
00:21:55.760 to the $64,000 question. And I say, what is your church in Hollywood believe about homosexuality?
00:22:02.060 And they said, well, we believe it's a sin. And I, I, at the, in that moment, I really,
00:22:07.060 I wasn't surprised by that, by that answer. And I really appreciated how honest they were and that
00:22:14.580 they didn't try to dodge the question and, you know, kind of obvious, like, I was glad that they
00:22:19.900 just said it, you know, just outright. And, and so in that moment I thought, okay, what if I've,
00:22:29.980 what if God does exist? I mean, there's a slim chance he does exist. And what if homosexual
00:22:35.760 behavior is wrong, is sinful? And what if I've built my entire life on a false foundation and I
00:22:41.520 don't know it like that? That's a possibility. And so, so I was receptive. I was open to hearing
00:22:48.080 that from them. Whereas like a couple of years before five years, 10 years before that, I would
00:22:53.060 have been like, you guys are crazy. You need help. You need therapy. Um, but I was open to hearing
00:22:58.980 that. And then they invited me to their church the following Sunday called reality LA and, um,
00:23:06.260 which I still attend. And I, so I, I had no idea what I was getting into because I had never been
00:23:11.960 to an evangelical church. I didn't know what it was like. I didn't know what it looked like.
00:23:16.760 I was used to stained glass windows and smoke and bells. Yeah. I was used to vestments and hats and
00:23:23.200 stuff. And so I show up, I didn't actually, I didn't know if I was going to go because,
00:23:29.000 you know, it's a big deal to kind of, it was like betraying your, your community. Like, you know,
00:23:35.840 if, if anyone ever found out besides my best friend who was there, like I, it was just would
00:23:40.840 have been very weird and awkward. What was his reaction? Was he kind of like, what are you
00:23:45.680 doing? He didn't, um, he was intrigued as well. And, and, and he didn't really know that I was going
00:23:54.480 to, that I was going to follow through and actually go to the service the following Sunday. And I didn't
00:23:59.600 either because I spent the whole week kind of going back and forth. Like, am I going to do this? Is it
00:24:03.820 so weird if I go and it could be humiliating? And what if nothing happens about people being
00:24:11.140 judgmental or right away castigating you? That wasn't the fear? No, not at all. No, I just thought,
00:24:17.840 you know, what if not my biggest fear was what if nothing happens? And then I'm just still stuck in
00:24:23.380 this kind of no man's land of like no purpose in my life and no meaning. And so I, I ended up
00:24:31.580 sent that Sunday morning. I woke up and I just was like, I guess I'm going to do this. And I
00:24:35.580 drove to the, the, it meets in a high school auditorium and LA public high school, which is
00:24:42.540 funny. And, um, and so I walked in and it was just kind of this really plain auditorium and the worship
00:24:50.500 band was playing. And I remember thinking when I walked in, I just was like, Oh, Christian music.
00:24:56.080 That's so weird. I forgot that existed. Gross. But then I was like, wait a minute. It's actually
00:25:01.220 nice. Like it's, and so I, I, and then I found a seat. I, I sat near the front and by myself and
00:25:08.900 the pastor comes out and he starts preaching on Romans chapter seven. And as he's preaching for an
00:25:16.500 hour, just things start to shift in me. It's crazy. As he was preaching, I was hanging on every word
00:25:24.720 and I was riveted to the sermon. Cause I was like, wait a minute, everything he's saying is true. And
00:25:30.900 I don't know why I feel that way right now. What's going on? And, and I just was, I didn't want him to
00:25:38.020 stop preaching. Cause I was like, this is amazing. Like this is the gospel. This, it, it turned everything.
00:25:43.000 I, I believe I thought religion was on its head. And I was like, this is good news. This is crazy.
00:25:50.420 And so after the sermon, he, he left, he, before he left the stage, he said, there's people on the
00:25:57.720 side of the church on the prayer ministry. And if you need prayer for anything, you can go ask. So that
00:26:03.260 was another kind of moment of like, do I go over there? If I do, it's kind of, people might be watching
00:26:07.860 me and it's weird, but I was like, whatever I'm here. So I went over to this guy and I said on the
00:26:14.960 prayer team. And I said, you know, I don't know what I believe, but I'm here. And again, it's a
00:26:20.000 Christian fantasy come true. And he says, well, can I pray for you? I'm like, yes. And he, you know,
00:26:27.500 lays his hands on me and he starts praying. And it just felt so loving. And I was like, why,
00:26:35.220 how does this random straight guy love me so much and care about me so much? And, and it was just
00:26:42.160 felt very powerful. And then I thanked him. I went back to my seat and there's another 25 minutes of
00:26:48.260 worship music playing. So the lights are kind of dim. It's a, I go to a reform church, but so it's,
00:26:55.820 this sounds kind of wacky, but the lights dim. But, um, and so I, uh, as soon as I sat, everyone else
00:27:03.820 was standing and singing and worshiping, I sit down and all of a sudden the Holy Spirit just
00:27:10.980 like, like overwhelms me. And in that moment, God revealed himself to me and I'll never forget.
00:27:20.260 I mean, in my mind, he said, God said, I'm God. Jesus is my son. Heaven is real. Hell is real.
00:27:25.980 The Bible is true. Welcome to my kingdom. And I was like, and it's like Isaiah when he's in the temple
00:27:32.760 and he sees the holiness of God and he comes undone. That's what happened to, I just started
00:27:37.200 bawling and bawling. Like I was crying harder than I'd ever cried in my life, except as an infant. But
00:27:44.640 because I was just born again, I was, I was kind of an infant. And then, um, so I, I was,
00:27:53.140 was retching for the next 25 minutes. And then I, I got in my car and I drove home. I don't even know
00:28:00.240 how I made it home. Cause I was in such a state and I got into bed to take a nap, uh, because I
00:28:06.640 was so overwhelmed. And, uh, and it happened again. God's like, it was like Moses in the cleft of the
00:28:11.680 rock and God passes by with his glory. God was like, let me show you some more of my glory.
00:28:17.060 And it just was like this huge dose of God's presence again. And I was like, Whoa. And I just
00:28:24.200 burst into tears again, jumped out of my bed at a, in the middle of my bedroom. I was like, God,
00:28:29.620 you have my whole life. I'm yours. I'm done. And, and I knew in that moment that homosexual
00:28:37.180 behavior was a sin. I knew it was wrong. I, I knew it. Yeah. I knew immediately. I knew it wasn't who
00:28:42.800 my identity anymore. I knew that dating guys was no longer a part of my future, but I didn't care
00:28:47.620 because I just met Jesus. And I was like, uh, I'm going to go with that guy. Good riddance to that
00:28:51.820 life. So this wasn't, this wasn't a product of, you know, a process over time of people really
00:28:58.240 teaching you, Hey, here's why we believe homosexuality is wrong. Here's what the Bible
00:29:02.920 says. At that point, you didn't even really know what the Bible said about it. Right. Besides what
00:29:07.200 the Christians had told you originally when you saw them. Well, I knew, I mean, I was, I was aware
00:29:13.340 of what the Bible, because I, you know, I grew up in the Catholic church and we, I knew what the Bible
00:29:18.740 had to say about homosexual behavior, but, but it was so God had so much grace on me that day.
00:29:24.620 First of all, the fact that he, that all happened the very first time I went to a church was remarkable
00:29:30.320 and, uh, and he had so much grace and he made it so clear. Just, it was like an instant. I just knew
00:29:37.720 that this is not who I am. This is not my life. And, and, and good. And I was like, and I still,
00:29:44.580 to this day, am in shock about, I mean, that was 12 years ago, September, that was September 20th,
00:29:49.340 2009. And I'm still stunned by it, but I have zero desire to go back to Egypt and to go back
00:29:59.260 into bondage. I have no desire. Like I, I'm so like, I'm so thrilled that God rescued me out of that
00:30:07.660 darkness and out of that life because that life, what the media, you know, what the media doesn't
00:30:14.320 show obviously is that life is very dark, uh, especially for gay men. And so I, there's just
00:30:25.240 so much, like, it's like the glue, the glue that holds that community together. There's three,
00:30:32.420 I think there's three things that, that hold it together. And this may, I mean, this may,
00:30:37.840 I mean, obviously there are exceptions. I'm just generalizing, but, uh, alcohol, drugs,
00:30:43.500 and sex, like that's what really binds that community together. And at least when I was going,
00:30:50.580 growing up and going through that, that whole thing. So I was thrilled to be out of that bondage
00:30:57.940 because it really is. It's such a, um, I mean, so much goes on behind the scenes that people don't
00:31:05.940 talk about and just like at parties and there's, there's, you know, people in bedrooms doing crazy
00:31:11.860 things and it's just, it's just a dark world. And I'm so happy to be out of that world and into God's
00:31:20.420 marvelous light. I mean, it's just so, it's so, I can't even express how, how amazing, obviously,
00:31:26.720 you know how amazing it is, but it's just amazing to be in Christ.
00:31:31.060 There's a couple of things that I want to highlight and get your thoughts on.
00:31:34.480 One thing that I noticed when you were describing the reaction of your parents and then describing,
00:31:39.320 um, the reaction and the response, the reception that you got at the church that you first visited,
00:31:44.840 you talked about their sweetness, about their kindness and about just the love that they showed
00:31:51.880 you. A lot of Christians who know that homosexuality is a sin, we've talked about that several times on
00:31:57.740 this podcast and what the Bible says about that. They have a tough time though, balancing or knowing
00:32:03.540 what it looks like to love someone and also speak the truth to them. Because one of the things that
00:32:09.240 you said was very formative and that you appreciated was that the group of Christians that you saw
00:32:14.880 blatantly said, yeah, we think homosexuality is a sin. A lot of times today we hear a whole lot of
00:32:20.060 caveats and, well, you know, we believe God loves everyone. We won't talk about that yet,
00:32:25.100 but you appreciated both the sweetness and the love of people who received you, but also the
00:32:30.200 truth that those Christians told you. Um, so can you talk a little bit more about that for Christians
00:32:35.080 who are wondering, how do I love, but also speak the truth in love to people in my life who are gay
00:32:42.140 or who identify as transgender, whatever it is? Yeah. I mean, Jesus was a master at this,
00:32:47.840 obviously. And if you, and I've done this a couple of times where I'll read all four gospels
00:32:52.360 throughout in one sitting and I'll, I'll pay attention. Just I'll focus on how Jesus interacts
00:32:57.980 with people. And he never compromises truth or grace. He's, he always, he's obviously the,
00:33:05.680 he balances grace and truth perfectly. And you know, when he, yes, of course he, he eats with,
00:33:13.080 and, uh, he, he spends times with tax collectors and sinners and prostitutes, but he always like,
00:33:20.780 even with, uh, Levi, when he calls Levi to come follow him, Levi leaves his tax booth and basically
00:33:26.980 that, and then there's a, then he has a celebration at his home and that's, that celebration is a sign
00:33:32.640 of repentance that, that he's left that behind. He's left that life behind. And even the woman at the
00:33:38.080 well, the woman in Samaria, like, you know, Jesus was so loving to her and so kind to her, but he
00:33:45.920 called her out on her sin. And, and I mean, that's, and I, so I, in, in Leviticus 19, actually, if I can
00:33:54.200 just read this for a second, um, it, this is about, you know, loving your neighbor. And, uh, it says,
00:34:02.940 it's Leviticus 19 verse 17, it says, you shall not hate your, your brother in your heart, but you
00:34:08.980 shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him. And so loving your
00:34:15.540 neighbor, in other words, means telling them the truth, telling your neighbor the truth. And so
00:34:21.620 that's what that it's, it's people kind of think like, oh, it's not very loving to say these things
00:34:29.240 and to say homosexual behavior is a sin. And, but it's actually the most loving thing you can do
00:34:34.460 because, because you're, if you don't, if you, if you're gay affirming, you're aiding and abetting
00:34:40.880 someone's eternal destruction. And so that, that's the most unloving thing you can possibly do.
00:34:47.440 And so I, I find it to, that's why I was so appreciative of how these, these young Christians
00:34:53.320 just told me the truth, because that's, that's actually loving. And they were, you know, they weren't,
00:34:58.400 they weren't cruel about it or mean about it. They were just very honest and very, they just said
00:35:04.420 it very simply. And so, um, yeah, I think, I think you can, Jesus, you can't check your,
00:35:11.760 you can't check your convictions at the door when, when you're, you know, talking to people or when
00:35:17.400 you're evangelizing. You, of course, be gracious and loving, but you, you have to tell the truth.
00:35:23.520 And I think, I think that's, we're losing a lot because of this, this issue is so,
00:35:28.860 you know, controversial now in culture, we're losing a lot of that. Even pastors are kind of
00:35:34.680 afraid to, to talk about this issue. Yeah. And that's kind of, that kind of leads to my next
00:35:40.120 question because it seems like for Christians, when compromise happens, when deconstruction happens,
00:35:47.840 when they do kind of start embracing more worldly ideologies and dogma and trying to kind of somehow
00:35:55.300 mix that in with Christianity, it does seem like homosexuality is the first thing. Like with Jen
00:36:02.160 Hatmaker, that's one example. We've kind of seen that evolution over the past few years. I remember
00:36:07.040 and I think it was 2015 when she talked about, you know, she doesn't think being gay is a sin. We've
00:36:13.000 seen that with several other, which you would call, you know, professing Christian influencers. And it
00:36:17.740 seems like for people who call themselves progressive Christians, that's the main thing.
00:36:22.660 There might be some other things that they think is wrong with traditional conservative Christianity,
00:36:26.780 but that seems to be the main sticking point and the main reason why some people deconstruct,
00:36:34.640 why some people become so-called progressive Christians. Why do you think that is? And what do you,
00:36:41.720 what do you think about that? What do you think about Christians who say, well, you know,
00:36:45.280 I believe in Jesus and the gospel and all of that, but I also believe that being gay is fine.
00:36:51.120 Well, I always think about, so when I was in high school at Jesuit, everyone at Jesuit,
00:36:57.540 everyone at Ursuline, this, you know, this was 30 years ago, they believed, there was, it was just
00:37:04.040 unequivocal. They believed that homosexuality was wrong. Homosexual behavior was wrong. It just,
00:37:09.340 we didn't have to say anything. It was just understood. Now, some of those very same people
00:37:14.500 from my high school on Facebook, there, there, there's a lot of them are gay affirming. And so I,
00:37:20.300 my question is why, what's happened over the last 30 years? Yeah. Yeah. I wonder what's happened.
00:37:26.200 And obviously it's the culture and, and we live in a very specific time and place in history and
00:37:32.640 culture in, in the United States. And there's been, you know, for the last, ever since Stonewall Inn
00:37:39.420 from 1969 until now, there's been this concerted effort to, to obviously normalize homosexual behavior
00:37:47.120 and all kinds of media and TV shows, Will and Grace and, uh, you know, Queer Eye and all these TV shows.
00:37:54.440 And those, that, those shows have a massive impact on people's understanding of this issue. And they,
00:38:04.760 of course, when you see movies like, you know, Brokeback Mountain or all these other kinds of
00:38:09.640 movies, it just, it, it continues to, it's such, storytelling is so persuasive and it's persuading
00:38:19.560 an entire generation, entire culture that this behavior is not only good and righteous,
00:38:27.540 but it's also holy. It's become, it's gone from a sin to a sacrament over the last, you know,
00:38:33.200 50 years. And so we have to understand how powerful the culture is. And we have to understand that we
00:38:40.960 are in the middle of it and we have to be aware of what is, what's affecting our belief systems,
00:38:48.080 what's affecting our worldview. Is it the word of God or is it the culture? Is it Netflix? Is it,
00:38:55.080 so you have to be aware of that because it's, again, the culture is so obviously right now is
00:39:01.700 so powerful and just the constant onslaught of media that is pro LGBTQ, you know, it's just,
00:39:10.640 it's just, it's unbelievable really at this point. And, and so we have to be aware of what,
00:39:16.760 what's affecting us. And that, that's why I always, I always tell people like, if you've watched an hour
00:39:21.340 of Netflix, you've just been lied to implicitly or explicitly, and now you need to read the Bible
00:39:26.560 for an hour to be renewed in your mind. You need the truth. And so I think that's, that's the trap.
00:39:33.860 And, and by the way, Satan has, Satan is thrilled about this. He's thrilled that he's got an entire
00:39:40.660 generation deceived about this issue. And he's laughing all the way to the bank. He's winning
00:39:47.340 this battle. He's not going to win the war. We know that, but he's winning this battle. And,
00:39:52.300 you know, he's been lying from the beginning. He lied in the guard. He twisted God's word in the
00:39:56.080 beginning to Eve. And he said, did God really say you can't do that? And he's doing the exact same
00:40:01.200 thing with this issue. He's saying, did God really say homosexual behavior is a sin? I mean,
00:40:05.860 it's really just whispered in the Bible, right? And it's, it's not in the, in the, the, the,
00:40:12.320 the passages that talk about it, you know, they're not really clear and, oh, it could be cultural
00:40:16.760 distance or it could be something else. It's only talking about pedophilia. It's only talking about
00:40:20.960 rape. Yeah. There are, there's something that we've talked about a lot on this show and it's
00:40:27.320 an alliteration that I like to use when it comes to the definition of marriage and holy sexuality,
00:40:32.940 because you do hear those arguments a lot that, well, the Bible only prohibits it here. And really
00:40:38.420 it means this, but as Christians, we don't just read the Bible saying, what does God say not to do?
00:40:44.080 But we also look at the Bible and say, well, what does God say to do? It's not a mentality for the
00:40:49.120 Christian, for the one who has submitted to Christ of what can I get away with? The mentality is how can
00:40:54.460 I deny myself and glorify God the most? And so we also look at what God actually affirms. It's not just
00:41:00.360 that he says homosexuality is wrong, although that would be enough if he did, but he also affirms
00:41:05.640 that marriage is between a man and a woman. So that's rooted in creation. It's reiterated
00:41:11.860 throughout scripture. It's repeated by Jesus himself, specifically in Matthew 19. And it is
00:41:18.060 reflective of the gospel because it is representative of Christ and the church, as we see in Ephesians 5.
00:41:25.920 So it's not just a physical bond. The definition of male and female is actually representative
00:41:31.440 of Christ and the church. That means it not only has gospel significance, it has eternal
00:41:37.240 significance. And it's just the hubris of the culture of human beings and of professing Christians
00:41:43.640 to say that we can redefine that, that thing that is representative of something so huge and so
00:41:53.220 eternal, and it's fine. It's fine. We can redefine this big, huge, significant thing, and it's okay.
00:42:00.860 And it really does, just like all sin, like you said, go back to the garden, and it also goes back
00:42:04.560 to pride, that we think we are more loving than God. We think we are wiser than God. We're more
00:42:09.780 compassionate and empathetic than God. We know truth better than God. That's really what it is. It's
00:42:15.200 all about exchanging the God of scripture for the God of self.
00:42:18.680 Yeah. Speaking of the exchanges, in Romans 1, you know, there's the three exchanges that Paul talks
00:42:26.160 about, that we exchange the truth for a lie. And it's interesting because what does Paul use
00:42:33.040 as the illustration at the end of that section? What does Paul use as the illustration for suppressing
00:42:39.760 the truth? Homosexual behavior. And why does he do that? Because it's patently obvious,
00:42:47.000 anatomically, physiologically, that two men or two women do not go together. And that's why Paul
00:42:53.680 used, I think if Paul were around today, he may use the example of abortion as suppressing the truth.
00:43:00.380 Because, you know, when I was living as a gay man, I was pro-choice. But it's like, I knew,
00:43:08.660 deep down, I knew that that was a baby in the womb. But because all my friends were pro-choice,
00:43:14.280 I just took that on. And that's just actively suppressing the truth. But anyway, yeah. So the
00:43:22.920 Bible says nothing positive about homosexual behavior. It's all negative. And it's so,
00:43:32.260 I mean, as you said, just from Genesis to Revelation, it's not just those six passages
00:43:38.800 that specifically address it. It's the entire scope of the story of redemption. And the thing is,
00:43:45.860 the Bible is not a handbook on homosexuality. It's the greatest love story ever told. But it's so clear
00:43:54.200 about this issue. And Paul says, do not be deceived. Men who practice homosexuality will not enter the
00:44:00.800 kingdom of God. It's just, it's so abundantly clear. And so after I got saved that day, after I
00:44:08.720 came to faith, and when I read the Bible, I mean, I was just voraciously reading the Bible. I was
00:44:16.320 obsessed with it, and I still am. But every word just jumped off the page. And I was like, whoa,
00:44:22.960 like, this is crazy. I can't believe that I'm a part of this story of redemption. And in the passages
00:44:29.640 that talk about sexuality, I just was like, they completely rang true to me. And I just knew that
00:44:36.460 this is the truth. This is the truth. Wow. Okay, I've got, building on that, I've got three
00:44:43.120 specific kind of advice questions to ask you. One thing we talked about why a lot of Christians,
00:44:51.500 obviously, we know why non-Christians kind of give in on this issue. But a lot of Christians give in on
00:44:56.200 this issue is not, yes, because of the culture. And I guess one of the messages that culture tells
00:45:01.260 us that political activists, which are ruthless, tell us is that if we do not affirm someone's so
00:45:07.080 called sexual or gender identity, then they are going to die. They're going to kill themselves.
00:45:11.880 It is like condoning violence. It's always that. It's never like, well, you know, this kind of hurts
00:45:16.400 someone's feelings. And it's always straight to you're condoning their death. You're condoning violence
00:45:21.480 against them if you happen to disagree with that. Well, no one wants to be on that side. Of course,
00:45:25.260 no one wants to. So I think that's one pressure. And I'm wondering if you have some advice
00:45:30.120 specifically when it comes to, well, I don't know if I'm trying to split up these questions
00:45:36.600 or bring them together. One thing that people ask me a lot that I've tried to answer, but I want to
00:45:40.740 hear your perspective. Should you use the preferred pronouns of someone, even though you know you're not
00:45:47.160 affirming transgenderism? And the second question is in this whole truth in love realm, should you go
00:45:54.960 to a gay person's wedding as a Christian to show them love?
00:46:02.660 Well, let's start with the gay wedding thing. So when I, right after I kind of, I think it was like
00:46:09.240 six months to a year after I got saved, my agents at William Morris invited me. Well, one of the agents
00:46:17.160 was gay, is gay, and he was getting married to a man. And we were out at dinner and he, the woman
00:46:27.280 agent, she turned to me and she said, Beckett, you're going to so-and-so's wedding, right? And I
00:46:32.940 said, of course I'm going. Because in that moment, I just felt like, oh, like I'm supposed to be loving.
00:46:37.540 I should do this, right? Because I was a baby Christian. I didn't really know what to do.
00:46:43.440 And so I ended up going to the wedding and it was a huge mistake because once I got there,
00:46:52.400 I realized, wait a minute, all these people here are celebrating sin. Like they're celebrating this
00:47:00.100 union between two men and I can't be a part of this. Like, so, um, so my, my thing, my thing with,
00:47:10.200 with gay weddings is I absolutely will not go ever again. I won't put myself through that again.
00:47:16.960 And I, I, I just think, I mean, it's a, it's a tough question for, for parents. Like, do you go
00:47:24.940 and show your, you know, your love to your child while at the same time making it clear to them
00:47:31.400 that you, you disagree with, with what's happening? But I find that, you know, Jesus, you know, this,
00:47:39.060 I mean, this is, these are hard words, but Jesus said, hate your mother, hate your brother,
00:47:42.260 hate your father, like, and, and come follow me. And in other words, like, I have to be,
00:47:48.240 no, I have to be number one in your life. And, and so you have to ask yourself, is this,
00:47:54.940 is my attending this, this, this gay wedding, is that glorifying to God? And is my presence there
00:48:02.480 showing support for this? And again, it's not about, yes, you can go to, to dinner,
00:48:11.520 to, to the dinner with them or whatever, but to go to the union, to the wedding, quote unquote,
00:48:16.720 um, I think is, is, is not a good idea for a Christian to do. I think it's, it's damaging because
00:48:22.900 you're, you're sending the wrong signal. You're, you're basically saying like, I'm affirming this
00:48:27.300 as well. With all these other people, I'm affirming this union. Yeah. So that's, that's dangerous.
00:48:32.660 And then with the pronoun, preferred pronouns, it's funny that you asked me this question because
00:48:36.400 I, I try to stay out of that, but, um. Well, you don't, you don't have to, you're,
00:48:43.800 you don't have to answer that question if you don't want to. I just thought that you might have
00:48:47.280 an interesting perspective, even though I know transgender and homosexuality is not the same
00:48:51.600 thing, but as someone who was evangelized to and had that good mixture of truth and love,
00:48:57.500 in your opinion, what is the mixture of truth and love there?
00:49:01.720 I mean, it's hard because kind of in, in principle, I would say, you know, don't use
00:49:09.320 preferred pronouns because you're just, you're adding to the chaos and the confusion of the world.
00:49:15.200 And so you're just, you're just, you're just not, you're not helping in any way. You're not
00:49:20.260 helping bring truth, salt and light. You're not, you're not bringing truth into a situation by
00:49:24.760 using preferred pronouns. So in principle, I'm opposed to that. Um, and I also think it's just
00:49:31.400 postmodern gibberish and, you know, it's just like Derrida and Foucault are just winning, you know,
00:49:37.080 because, because people are, are falling for this, they're falling for this stupid deconstructed lie
00:49:44.220 of, you know, Oh, gender's not real. And Simone de Beauvoir is what, yeah, there is no gender,
00:49:51.260 you know, it's, there's no, there's, there's not binary sex. There's just kind of fluid gender
00:49:56.560 and you can choose whatever you want. So I think, I think it's, um, important to, to be kind of clear
00:50:06.180 on that to the culture as a Christian and, and not, not equivocate, not waver on it because
00:50:13.140 the culture already is so, and even Christians in the church are already so confused about it. So
00:50:20.600 I think it's important to be clear on that. However, that said in, in any given situation,
00:50:29.320 it, it depends on, you know, if I'm talking to somebody who is transgender, I, or I'm not going
00:50:37.140 to be, I'm not going to go out of my way to be cruel to them. So, and I'm not going to like call
00:50:42.520 them Joe if their, you know, name is Christine, you know, like I'm not going to, and I'm not going
00:50:47.440 to call them he when, when they present or appear as, as a woman. So it's just, I, it just depends.
00:50:56.660 Yeah. I, I think it depends on the situation and I think you need wisdom and, and I would pray about
00:51:01.620 that, but in general, but in principle, yeah, I think just the, the, this whole pronoun gender
00:51:09.680 stuff is so demonic that we need to be, be firm on it and clear about it, but then also love people
00:51:18.900 well. I do think that there is a difference in talking about something or someone and talking
00:51:25.280 to someone and you don't want to lie to them. I think that you could simultaneously say to someone,
00:51:32.240 Hey, you know, I love you. I want to be your friend, but here's where I stand on this. Like
00:51:38.960 you are a man, you're a woman, whatever it is, I'm going to be as kind to you as possible. If you want
00:51:43.780 me to call you Sally, I'll call you Sally, but here's where I stand. Here's the truth. Um, so I think
00:51:49.140 it is possible to, I know that nuance is a word that is very overused nowadays, sometimes to excuse
00:51:54.980 people for just confusion. Um, but I do think in interaction with someone and in conversation with
00:52:02.780 someone, there is some nuance, but I'm with you definitely on the principle. Absolutely. I'm not
00:52:08.720 going to use the preferred pronouns. If I were writing an article, if I were talking about a story,
00:52:13.620 like a man competing against women in sports, um, I'm not going to add to that confusion by using
00:52:19.940 the improper preferred pronoun, but it can get a little bit complicated, um, with people. Um, okay,
00:52:27.440 here's the, there's many things I could, I want to ask you, but here's one thing I have a really hard
00:52:33.420 time with personally, and that's first Corinthians five 11. Now I'm writing to you not to associate with
00:52:39.460 anyone who bears the name of brother, if he is guilty of a fellow Christian, if he is guilty of
00:52:44.380 sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler, not even to eat
00:52:49.460 with such a one. Now, a lot of people have friends who profess to be Christians who are gay or who are
00:52:56.880 greedy, whatever it is. And I'm not sure how often we actually implement this biblical rule.
00:53:02.460 I mean, what is your take on that? What would your advice be to Christians who are kind of struggling
00:53:07.180 with this? Well, well, I'm not going to, I'm not going to go against Paul. That's for sure. Yeah.
00:53:13.660 Um, so I mean, yeah, I mean, those words, he's those words that you just read are they're harsh
00:53:20.560 and they, they seem harsh in our culture and they sound hard, but, um, yeah, if someone is professing
00:53:27.520 to be a Christian yet they're living a life, like for example, they're, they're, they're, they're living a
00:53:34.800 life of, of homosexual behavior and they're living that life and identifying as gay. And, uh, I think,
00:53:42.320 I, I mean, I, I think I would do what Paul says and, you know, because in first, here's the thing,
00:53:49.680 you know, and there is, this is all over the new Testament, but, and I'll just read in first John,
00:53:54.320 um, this is what John has to say. And he says in John three, first John three, he says,
00:54:02.840 no one who abides in Christ keeps on sinning. No one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or
00:54:08.300 knowing, known him. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil for the devil has been
00:54:12.880 sinning from the beginning. And then lastly, he says, no one born of God makes a practice.
00:54:18.960 In other words, continues in unrepentant sin. So no one born of God makes a practice of sinning
00:54:25.500 for God's seed abides in him. And he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
00:54:30.740 So, and so if I, if I meet someone who professes Christianity and, but then, you know, goes to a
00:54:39.800 gay affirming church or is gay and lives that life fully, then I treat them as a Gentile, as Paul would
00:54:46.440 say, I treat them as a non-believer. And so, uh, yeah, I, uh, I don't, I'm trying to think if,
00:54:54.360 if I do, I don't, I don't, I really don't hang out with people who, who are doing that,
00:55:00.580 who are in that situation. So I guess, and just by kind of default, I don't associate with people
00:55:06.400 who are doing that. Yeah. I think that's, um, a difficult area for people who again are told that
00:55:14.440 love is unconditional affirmation, but you made such a great point earlier that the most loving
00:55:19.240 thing that we can do is really agree with God and agree with God in what he says is good and right
00:55:25.740 and true. Um, and there is a way to exemplify that truth and love. And as you pointed out earlier,
00:55:32.900 Jesus is the perfect example of that. Now I do want to say to people that Jesus was the perfect example
00:55:38.680 of the embodiment of, of grace and truth. And we are also told that Stephen was described as that
00:55:45.740 full of grace and truth. We know how both of them ended up. So being full of grace and truth does not
00:55:53.540 mean that the culture is going to love you, that the person that you're talking to is going to respond
00:55:58.200 well, that you're going to be accepted by the world. Actually, if you look at the life of Stephen,
00:56:02.820 um, you might get metaphorically stoned, canceled, whatever, um, for being full of grace and truth.
00:56:11.520 And so realize that the outcome or the response is not indicative of your, of whether or not your
00:56:19.200 obedience is right. The indication of whether or not your obedience is right is if it's biblical.
00:56:26.460 Yeah. And, you know, Jesus, I'm just trying to find the Sermon on the Mount. Uh, but Jesus said,
00:56:31.660 yeah, Jesus says, um, blessed are you blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake
00:56:38.040 for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you. And this is, I mean, this is like,
00:56:43.520 and I'm sure you get this. I get this all the time. Blessed are you when others revile you and
00:56:48.200 persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad
00:56:54.040 for your reward is great in heaven for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
00:57:00.080 And then, you know, Jesus says they're, they're going to hate you because they hated me first.
00:57:04.220 And so, yeah, I take great comfort in that, that our master, our King suffered, he suffered,
00:57:11.440 you know, the worst kind of, of mistreatment and persecution. And so when, and, and Paul's,
00:57:19.780 what's the verse counted all joy brothers. Is that Peter or Paul, Peter, Paul, or Mary?
00:57:25.420 Sorry. Um, but yeah, I mean, it's just like, I, and one of James, who is it? I think it's actually
00:57:33.040 James, James. Okay. Okay. Sorry. Um, but I, you know, one of my favorite verses, I don't like to
00:57:44.300 choose favorite verses, but one of the verses that really resonates with me and has always resonated
00:57:49.340 with me since I became a Christian is when Paul says, I count everything as lost because of the
00:57:54.540 surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus, my Lord. Now I, I've lost a lot of friends. Like I've lost,
00:58:01.540 I lost my closest, closest friends from, from, uh, uh, St. Mark's and Hockett. So the, I had,
00:58:08.720 when I was at Jesuit, most of my friends were St. Mark's and Hockett people.
00:58:12.180 Mm-hmm. And they were my roommates in LA. Like we were all best, best, best, best friends since
00:58:19.520 high school. And I lost those friends. I lost my career. But again, just like Paul, you know, Paul,
00:58:27.960 this is another thing about this issue is it's, it's so we're so in this kind of, obviously if you,
00:58:35.200 if you've read the rise and triumph of the modern self, we're in this expressive individualistic
00:58:39.100 kind of period in history. And if you're, you know, if you're not living your authentic life
00:58:47.540 or being true to yourself, then somehow you're not, you know, that there, there's something wrong
00:58:52.520 with that. But I just find that, um, I kind of, I just lost my train of thought. Wait, where was I
00:59:00.300 going? That's okay. The rise and triumph of the modern self, that's Carl Truman. And we're kind of
00:59:04.800 told that if you're not authentically being yourself at all times, then you're not going to be
00:59:08.700 fulfilled. You're not going to be happy and all of that. And you, but you lost all of these friends.
00:59:12.640 Yeah. So what I was going to say is Paul, Paul, we kind of live in this time where we're just like,
00:59:18.300 we look at ourselves and our lives and we want happiness. We want, we want all these things.
00:59:24.100 And it's like, Paul, if you look at his life, he was shipwrecked and beaten and, and, uh, he was
00:59:30.920 jailed. And, but all he cared about was running around the Mediterranean, planting churches,
00:59:37.020 spreading the gospel. And he, that's all he cared about. It wasn't, his life wasn't, he was,
00:59:43.080 we're purchased. We are not our own. We were bought with a price. And so our life is not our own. And
00:59:48.520 so that, that's the, that's the, the struggle with, you know, with being a Christian is this is not,
00:59:56.140 we, we are no longer, we don't own ourselves. Christ owns us now. And so I just looked at Paul and I
01:00:02.720 think of, you know, what he went through and I'm just like, my life is, you know, my, my life is a
01:00:08.660 cakewalk compared to what Paul had to deal with. And so, uh, I think we need to kind of remember
01:00:14.900 and go back to the word of God and remember, you know, all the, the, the people who, you know,
01:00:19.780 all the apostles were, were martyred, except John, who was sunbathing on Patmos and writing
01:00:25.760 revelation. Yeah. But, um, but yeah, we have to look back and look about the early church and the
01:00:32.300 martyrs of the early church and how persecuted Christians were in the first century by Nero and
01:00:37.740 others. And so, yeah, so it's, it's not, we kind of are so internally focused right now in our culture
01:00:45.580 and it's so toxic and we, we need to look outward and look upward really.
01:00:50.840 Yes, absolutely. Could not agree more. I am so thankful that you took the time to come on and
01:00:57.300 share your story. I actually had a bunch of other questions to ask you about things that are currently
01:01:01.480 going on, uh, in culture that you've been talking about on your podcast, but I was just so invested
01:01:06.360 in your story. And I just knew as you were talking that this was going to really benefit the people
01:01:10.200 that need to hear it. So thank you for once again, sharing your story with us and for answering
01:01:14.900 some questions that I know aren't, aren't always easy to answer, but that a lot of Christians are
01:01:20.180 wrestling with and, um, you lent us your wisdom into those. And so I'm very grateful. Can you tell
01:01:25.240 everyone where they can find you, where they can buy your book and all that good stuff?
01:01:29.140 Oh yeah. Um, you can buy a change of affection on any Amazon or Barnes and Noble, whatever,
01:01:35.940 anywhere really. And, uh, and you can find me on YouTube, but on the Becca cook show, or it's on
01:01:42.300 any kind of a podcast platform as well, or Becca cook.com. Becca cook.com is my website. So
01:01:49.600 you can go there too. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Thank you, Allie. I appreciate it.
01:01:54.540 Thank you, Allie. I appreciate it.
01:02:12.300 Thank you, Allie.