Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - REPLAY： Is Empathy Making Us Stupid？

00:00:00.000 all right guys i hope everyone had a wonderful weekend last week last thursday i was in auburn

00:00:16.380 alabama speaking to some students there and i think some people from the community

00:00:21.700 with charlie kirk and turning point usa we talked about all kinds of issues that are deemed very

00:00:27.700 controversial today but it was a great crowd they were super engaged and we only had one dissenting

00:00:34.800 question and you know i really appreciated the fact that she had the courage to stand up in front

00:00:40.160 of a bunch of conservatives and ask the question that she knew was going to kind of be antagonistic

00:00:45.500 she did have a little bit of a tude and i told her that but i also told her that i was very proud of

00:00:50.820 her for standing up and for saying something that she believed and asked a question that you know

00:00:55.520 she thought was an important question to ask and we as conservatives should learn a lesson

00:01:00.920 a lesson from that kind of courage that if you are in the minority or if you are surrounding people

00:01:06.580 that you know are going to push back against you you still should have the courage to stand up and

00:01:11.140 say what you know to be true or ask really important and even seemingly controversial questions so i had a

00:01:19.360 blast doing that i don't typically travel as much as i have in the past few weeks and as much as i'm

00:01:24.560 about to over the next next few weeks i kind of have just like this burst of travel that's fun

00:01:30.280 but also as you guys can probably understand and maybe you understand from your own lives it can also

00:01:36.960 be very difficult to try to balance everything um that is going on but thankfully they're short seasons

00:01:43.960 and i have a a lot of support and i'm very thankful for that and i'm thankful for you guys who come out

00:01:49.900 and come to the talks i always love meeting you as i talked about last week i got to stay

00:01:55.320 uh with a fan turned friend and just enjoying that christian hospitality it just edified me

00:02:02.600 so much and i really do feel like we are family when i get to meet you in person it's just amazing so

00:02:08.040 thank you to everyone who comes out and and meets me and talks to me and all that good stuff

00:02:13.060 all right today we are going to talk about the dangers of one maybe two concepts it depends on

00:02:21.740 how far we get two traits or characteristics if you will that we have been told are universally

00:02:26.640 positive but are actually dangerous and destructive and that is number one empathy and number two

00:02:33.140 inclusion and we talked about this in auburn and then it just got me kind of thinking about this

00:02:38.720 subject and i thought it was important enough for me to start the week um out with and i don't know

00:02:44.360 if we're going to get to the inclusion portion because i could spend hours and hours talking about

00:02:49.640 the dangers of empathy so we're definitely going to talk about that we either will do like a part two

00:02:55.060 about the dangers of unfettered inclusion or we'll include it in today's episode and i understand i

00:03:01.900 have already scandalized some of you by saying there are problems with empathy because

00:03:06.300 empathy and inclusion are the values that have sucked so many people especially young people

00:03:13.780 especially women and especially christian women into accepting ideas and policies that are actually

00:03:20.920 very harmful and they are harming the very people that these groups say that they want to defend

00:03:27.920 the most vulnerable particularly women and children and i'll i'll talk about how that is um but not just

00:03:34.600 women and children also the people that we tend to see is marginalized and discriminated most against

00:03:39.600 in american society um i remember a few years ago i saw a video of a pastor talking about the dangers of

00:03:48.160 empathy even talking about the sin of empathy and then i saw um an influencer i don't know if that's

00:03:54.940 the correct term i don't mean that in a derogatory way but someone who has influence who

00:03:59.100 is a christian talking about how deleterious empathy can be and honestly for a while i just

00:04:06.640 didn't buy it i just kind of felt like people who were saying this were trying to be edgy and

00:04:12.040 honestly it kind of offended me i i thought of all the things in the world of all the terrible things

00:04:18.460 that a person could be of all the problems that we have in the universe we're going to spend our time

00:04:23.080 trashing empathy like doesn't empathy just mean putting yourself in someone else's shoes trying

00:04:29.140 to understand how someone feels to comprehend their position so you can listen to them learn

00:04:35.000 from them and then potentially if necessary advocate on their behalf like what could be wrong with that

00:04:40.060 isn't empathy what helps us be less judgmental and and kinder to people and then inclusion how could

00:04:46.920 that be bad what's wrong with trying to bring more people into the fold making sure more people

00:04:51.580 feel seen and heard shouldn't we especially as christians be creating a more inclusive and

00:04:57.240 empathetic society like isn't that what jesus would want isn't that loving people loving your neighbor

00:05:02.640 as yourself the answer is though i've realized over time and after some thought and some reading

00:05:09.480 and some investigation that the answer is actually no the answer is no not only should we not be

00:05:16.420 prioritizing empathy and inclusion in our own lives prioritizing i mean every word so make sure that

00:05:23.640 you're listening to what i'm saying i'm not saying as i will talk about that we shouldn't care about

00:05:28.920 these things at all but we should not be prioritizing empathy and inclusion in our lives we also shouldn't

00:05:35.780 be pursuing these as top societal values so first to explain why and if i'm angering some of you

00:05:44.360 already understand that i'm going to explain my position hopefully clearly and i also understand

00:05:50.200 how you feel because i felt that way in in the beginning of kind of this thought process so first

00:05:55.660 let's talk about what empathy is it comes from the greek empathia empathia which means in a state of

00:06:04.380 passion or emotion and i'm going to butcher the pronunciation of the the german word of empathy which came

00:06:12.420 around in about the the beginning of the 20th end of the 19th century which is einflung i think that's

00:06:18.960 how you pronounce it which literally means in feeling it was built on that greek word and this is

00:06:25.620 interesting if you look at the etymology of this word it's meant a term from a theory of art appreciation

00:06:31.360 that maintains appreciation depends on the viewer's ability to project his or her personality

00:06:36.860 onto the object so someone putting themselves into or onto another object to determine their feelings

00:06:45.220 about it so kind of like becoming that that thing so they can appreciate and understand it so

00:06:51.280 let's stop right there when we're talking about empathy the etymology so the study of this word

00:06:58.080 um the study of the meaning of this word indicates that empathy is primarily about feelings it is primarily

00:07:05.200 about the the state of emotions the the state of your mind it's about your mentality so when someone

00:07:13.000 says that they're an empath which is a word that you've probably heard more frequently recently they

00:07:18.440 typically mean that they can feel someone's pain strongly so they are constantly taking on the

00:07:24.560 struggles of those around them and they feel them deeply typically this is this is used in a very

00:07:30.240 positive sense that you want your counselor or your friend your psychologist your pastor to be an

00:07:36.320 empath to be a very empathetic person this is different than sympathy which is feeling for someone

00:07:43.200 or feeling with someone but not necessarily putting yourself into their position and taking on the full

00:07:49.740 depth of their pain but both sympathy and empathy can be harmful both can be destructive but especially

00:07:59.440 empathy so how because feeling too much for someone can blind us to reality uh a reality that is bigger

00:08:11.560 than someone's experience in pain it can make us forego principles that are higher than this person's

00:08:18.120 experience of pain it can cause us to ignore the truth the objective truth in favor of how a person

00:08:24.200 feels so when we allow someone's pain to become our own pain we then become unable to separate feelings

00:08:32.440 which are subjective from reality which is objective so here's what i mean by that and i know this is going

00:08:39.960 to be controversial to use this as an example but truly the example of race and policing is i think the most

00:08:49.700 is relevant because this is where i see empathy tripping people up it blinds them to what is

00:08:55.360 actually true it makes them ignore the facts because they are told being empathetic is latching on

00:09:01.260 to whatever narrative the mainstream media puts out so whenever there is a police shooting of a black man

00:09:10.980 we are expected to not just immediately express sadness which i think is justified and fine but we are also

00:09:18.660 expected to express outrage and not just outrage but outrage about this obviously being a racist and unjust event

00:09:28.700 so your empathy and love are measured on social media by how quickly you attach this incident to white

00:09:36.680 supremacy systemic racism and the problem with policing in america it's not enough as we saw after the whole

00:09:43.760 black square saga after george floyd in 2020 it's not enough just to say hey this person is made in the image of god

00:09:51.600 hey this incident doesn't look like it was justified it looks like it could have been an instance of

00:09:57.280 injustice that hey this person is is um has has value and dignity and worth and they weren't treated that way

00:10:05.200 and i think that is wrong you learn very quickly that that is not enough by the rage mob and the racial

00:10:11.680 social justice activists on social media you learn very quickly that you have to go beyond that that

00:10:16.640 you have to say that this is part of a a grand racist scheme and system and that you have to work

00:10:23.420 to dismantle and reform the system because it's not enough to be not racist you have to be anti-racist

00:10:28.700 which means you have to work to break down the institutions and systems that have caused this

00:10:33.460 kind of thing to happen you're not allowed to say that this was an isolated incident or that you care

00:10:38.180 about it because you care about people in general you have to latch on to whatever the mainstream

00:10:42.300 narratives say about race in order to be called empathetic and because we have been conditioned to

00:10:48.660 believe that empathy is a fruit of the spirit which it's not and it's the foremost characteristic that

00:10:53.920 christians should try to emulate which it isn't then we just find ourselves agreeing with what the loudest

00:11:01.160 and angriest and most dramatic people on social media say that we should agree with so if you say well

00:11:06.860 i have no idea if this shooting had racist motivations we don't know if the shooting was

00:11:12.720 justified or not there's no evidence right now that this is an indication of white supremacy or

00:11:18.240 systemic racism we just don't know if this is a symptom of a larger racist problem

00:11:23.280 with american policing let's wait for the facts oh my goodness if you say that and i'm saying this

00:11:30.180 from experience if you say that it's almost worse if you definitively take the opposite position from

00:11:38.240 the people who are saying that this is an instance of white supremacist injustice if you show any

00:11:42.600 curiosity or any humility or any deference to the fact that you might not know everything you are accused

00:11:50.140 of being a white supremacist of being a racist and the worst thing ever being unempathetic if you say

00:11:57.240 hey we we do have the facts actually and they don't seem to be in line with this narrative

00:12:04.740 that the police are shooting unarmed black men in droves um and and by the way like that's that's

00:12:11.960 true that we that the facts don't actually support that it's exceedingly rare for a police officer to

00:12:16.420 kill an unarmed person in general there are more white unarmed men killed by black unarmed uh killed

00:12:21.420 by the police officer than uh killed by police officers than black unarmed people and the number

00:12:26.500 of black men killed by the police is proportional to the crime rate among black americans unfortunately

00:12:31.000 that's a fact black americans make up 13 of the population yet commit 40 of all homicides in new

00:12:36.580 york city alone black americans make up about 23 of the population yet account for 64 of all

00:12:41.340 murder suspects 67 of all murder victims if you say that if you counter any of the emotional rhetoric

00:12:48.980 that we hear in these conversations about racism and policing and crime in the united states if you

00:12:55.300 go against the left-wing social justice narrative and you talk about facts and you talk about statistics

00:13:00.440 and you try to add statistical and evidentiary context to the conversations then you are accused of

00:13:06.560 being unempathetic and empathy actually blinds people to the facts that i just listed that actually

00:13:15.320 do add context when we are talking about race and policing in the united states and whether black lives

00:13:23.340 matter in the u.s or not like all of those facts really matter and yet we are told by the people who

00:13:29.120 weaponize empathy that you're not allowed to talk about facts because it's not loving so but but here's why

00:13:35.300 the statistics are actually important that i just listed that i know we're controversial but are

00:13:40.920 nonetheless factual one uh that because of crime numbers a black american is more likely to have an

00:13:47.180 interaction with a police officer which means they're more likely to have an interaction that ends in a

00:13:50.960 poor outcome unfortunately like a fatal shooting i'm not saying that's good i'm just saying that

00:13:55.620 statistically that's how things go so that should make us question that alone should make us question

00:14:00.100 whether racism is the motivator has anything to do with it um and that question is important because

00:14:06.840 if we assume that a police officer shooting a black man is because of systemic racism in the police force

00:14:12.920 or the justice system then that sets the groundwork for policy change like defunding the police or bail

00:14:18.680 reform both of which have led to levels of violent crime in major cities that we have not seen in

00:14:23.980 decades so that's my that's my second point in that like this kind of stuff these narratives have

00:14:30.600 actual consequences so the empathy that causes us or manipulates us to accept the narratives about

00:14:37.800 policing and in white supremacy and systemic racism in the united states completely uncritically

00:14:42.900 without looking at the facts can actually make us support policies that end up causing more victimhood

00:14:50.440 among the very people that we say that we are trying to protect by being empathetic in the beginning

00:14:55.280 did you follow that so all of that means the reforms that we're seeing because of the narratives that

00:15:01.640 are being pushed means more black victims of violent crime and murder black americans aren't just the

00:15:06.120 most likely perpetrators of violence in major cities they are the most likely victims so this is where

00:15:13.960 again empathy is destructive when the media and activists on social media many of whom are christian

00:15:19.000 influencers try to get you to respond exclusively in empathy by saying yes this incident was unjustified

00:15:24.800 no matter what and a racist no matter what and we need major changes to our system and our society

00:15:29.020 they they don't believe that black lives matter all you're doing is reacting to the demands of emotion

00:15:35.220 and emotion while it absolutely has its place and is natural it very often ignores facts and when we

00:15:44.060 ignore facts in favor of feelings we tend to push for policy that does not make sense and is destructive

00:15:50.200 and not just policy that doesn't make sense but theology that doesn't make sense you'll hear people

00:15:55.360 talking about god's justice after these incidents after these tragedies i can call it a tragedy no matter

00:16:01.240 what any time a human being especially an unarmed human being especially if it was unjustified dies at the

00:16:07.860 hands of the state or anyone else i think it is a tragedy they're made in the image of god

00:16:11.420 but you'll hear people put out you know micah six eight and he'll talk about racial reconciliation

00:16:18.360 and reparations white supremacy but very few people seem to be willing to step back and say

00:16:24.120 in the aftermath of all that hang on what really happened here what do we know what are the facts

00:16:30.480 what's going on in this incident in this instance and in our country as a whole and if you do ask those

00:16:37.320 questions again because i've been on the receiving end of this you are told that now's not the time

00:16:42.700 now's not the time for those questions now's not the time for facts now's not the time for statistics

00:16:47.860 but those people never have an answer for me when i ask when is the time like when is the time to ask

00:16:54.720 those questions when is the time for context when is the time for data and statistics and for facts

00:16:59.600 that can actually help us make better policy decisions that will do a better job of protecting

00:17:05.160 the communities that we say we want to protect the most vulnerable communities women children whomever it

00:17:10.960 is it seems that the people who are most empathetic in reacting to those news stories

00:17:17.400 don't allow their empathy to carry them to the point of coming up with viable solutions

00:17:24.200 because they are more concerned with sounding empathetic than they are actually loving the

00:17:29.720 people they say they are concerned with because look if we really cared if this is an issue that's

00:17:35.540 really on our heart if we really believe that black lives matter which i think that we all should

00:17:40.360 then we would care about the tens of thousands of black americans including children dying by homicide

00:17:45.180 every day largely thanks to the soft on crime policies of progressive cities we would care that more black

00:17:50.820 babies in new york city are aborted than born most years if black lives really matter we wouldn't be

00:17:56.740 only focusing on the people shot by the police we'd be focusing on how to fix the problem of black

00:18:01.980 people dying in droves at the hands of each other but you bring that up you're called racist we're told

00:18:07.080 oh that's not white people's business why not we share a country we live in a shared society it's our

00:18:13.140 business if one kind of crime is committed against a black person but not another our empathy is

00:18:18.080 demanded when it's a police officer firing the shot but not when it's a neighbor why why because

00:18:24.040 because the people who perpetuate only one side of the story who perpetuate one narrative the people

00:18:32.680 in the media the activist class who do so have something to gain have something to gain how do i know

00:18:38.520 well more than 130 black men uh who according to the washington post not have deadly weapons on them

00:18:44.720 although that doesn't necessarily mean that they didn't present some kind of threat have been shot

00:18:49.020 and killed by the police in the past year 132 do you know their names maybe we should be asking why

00:18:56.520 not i didn't i didn't know this because for reasons that we don't have time to fully analyze right now

00:19:03.200 they didn't trend on social media the media did not whip up your outrage your favorite influencer

00:19:09.100 or pastor did not demand your empathy we didn't see rioting and looting in response to the loss of

00:19:16.480 these 130 plus lots and now that is a big problem with empathy it one blinds you to facts facts that

00:19:24.120 matter facts that should guide our reaction to something facts that help us shape actual good policy

00:19:28.620 rather than reactive policy that will end up hurting the very people that we want to help and number

00:19:32.640 two it is unreliable it is ungrounded it tosses people and societies to and fro on the latest wave

00:19:39.560 of media generated outrage with which seems to be timed perfectly for elections tell me is that love

00:19:48.660 is that the love that christ calls us to one that is unreliable that is unpredictable that is feelings

00:19:56.400 based that is reactive that is generated by social media outrage biased news headlines uh the timing of

00:20:03.320 elections that is untruthful that defends things like looting and arson and rioting and can lead to

00:20:08.640 unjust deleterious policy that will create more victims like defunding the police or releasing

00:20:13.460 violent criminals from jail in the name of equity is that christian love no first corinthians 13 4 through

00:20:20.740 6 tells us what love looks like love is patient and kind love does not envy or boast it is not arrogant

00:20:28.340 or rude it does not insist on its own way it is not irritable or resentful it is not rejoice at wrongdoing

00:20:34.740 but rejoices with the truth so love christian love rejoices with the truth it is not lie or celebrate lies

00:20:43.360 even and perhaps especially those told in the name of empathy the world measures our love by how

00:20:52.120 quickly and how passionately how emotionally we react and repeat mainstream left-wing talking points

00:20:58.020 about racial and social justice how consistently we mimic the vocabulary of activists about systemic

00:21:03.540 racism and inequality without even understanding what is meant by these words but that's not real

00:21:09.380 honestly at the end of the day that is self-serving it's a vapid virtue signaling it's something we do

00:21:16.320 to be in the in crowd on social media to signal to other people that we're on the right side we're doing

00:21:21.540 the work we're fighting injustice without having to do so much as get off the couch and i don't doubt that

00:21:28.540 we feel strongly or even that our indignation and compassion are real but these feelings are so often ginned up

00:21:35.280 by what people on social media are telling us that we must care about and so often are not grounded in

00:21:41.860 reality and we call for policies and solutions not based on what is reasonable and good but based on

00:21:48.260 what feels best in the moment sometimes based on unsubstantiated fear or resentment or revenge

00:21:53.600 the bible measures the christian's love by its patience by its kindness not its niceness kindness and

00:22:02.280 niceness are two different things by the way kindness is not manners but it's actually seeking

00:22:06.820 the best interest of another person and best interest is defined by what god says is someone's

00:22:10.720 best interest because he created us god judges our love by its lack of arrogance its lack of rudeness

00:22:18.080 its lack of irritability its lack of resentment wow how much policy today is actually based on resentment

00:22:25.300 um he judges it based on its commitment to the truth to facts to objective reality to theological truth

00:22:34.720 that's revealed to us by the word of god do you know how much god values truth when it comes to

00:22:41.420 justice when it comes to the court of law i mean we've talked about justice versus social justice so many

00:22:47.340 times on this podcast and we have cited our sources and talking about the four main characteristics

00:22:53.700 that we see of god's justice when it comes to law giving in the bible specifically in his law giving to

00:23:01.020 israel and that is truthful um it is proportionate it is direct and it is impartial and on that truthful

00:23:08.660 piece we see how much god values it by his requirement of witnesses his requirement of an impartial judge he

00:23:16.800 forbids deference or partiality to the rich or to the poor he actually says that it is wicked to

00:23:23.620 defer to the poor to the weak person in a lawsuit that the judge must be impartial and if there is a

00:23:30.400 false witness against the accused the person who gave who who bore false witness must take on the

00:23:37.900 punishment that would have been endured by the person who was accused that's how much god hates deceit

00:23:43.480 that's how much god hates lying we should maybe take that a little more seriously when we try to impugn

00:23:49.040 the motives of someone uh especially maybe a police officer who by the way i don't think police

00:23:54.960 officers are perfect i think they have major responsibility they have people's lives in their

00:23:59.080 hands so they should be held to a really really high standard i don't think we should unconditionally

00:24:03.440 support police officers across the board but so often because again we want to be seen as so

00:24:09.900 empathetic we immediately impugn the motives of a police officer as racist as a white supremacist our

00:24:16.320 system as white supremacy look that's bearing false witness god takes that really seriously god cares

00:24:22.300 about truth so much that not only does he list it in first corinthians 13 as a characteristic of what

00:24:27.880 christian love is but we also see it in his law giving to israel we also see it as inextricably

00:24:35.760 intertwined with the truth i actually heard a pastor say um a few months ago or it could have been

00:24:42.360 last year at this point um when someone asked him to define justice he said justice is empathy

00:24:48.440 no no no no no in fact empathy can be an impediment to justice because if you are feeling someone's pain

00:24:57.940 and you put on someone's pain as your own pain that can deter you from being able to see things

00:25:04.140 objectively that can deter you from being able to see the other side of the story or to look at the

00:25:10.200 facts to look at things in an unbiased impartial way you can take on their resentment you can take

00:25:16.560 on their paranoia you can take on maybe their justified fear but their justified fear doesn't

00:25:22.580 necessarily speak to what is objectively true um and that's the other main maybe other major maybe the

00:25:30.860 main problem with empathy it can wreck a person's theology because not only does prioritizing someone's

00:25:38.300 feelings of pain cause us to deprioritize objective facts but it also causes us to deprioritize or

00:25:43.980 abandon biblical truth um i think again the best example of this is the issue of race because i see

00:25:53.440 even christian conservatives abandon all reason and all logic and all commitment to objective reality

00:25:58.860 and adopt narratives and ideas that are simply not true which leads to theological claims that are not

00:26:02.940 biblical so the conversation starts with things that are that are true that a white person cannot

00:26:08.900 understand what it means to be black in america true that black people in america have been oppressed

00:26:13.300 and unjustly discriminated against true that that is a sin that racism should be opposed all of this is true

00:26:20.240 so we accept that which is true which i think that we should we move into conversations about um about

00:26:27.600 these truths which i think is good we seek to understand we seek to listen um we seek to defer to

00:26:33.920 experiences that we haven't had ourselves i think all of that is good that could be an example of empathy

00:26:40.660 that is actually productive but just like any other value just like as we've talked about before autonomy

00:26:48.960 authenticity and as we may talk about today or another day inclusion when empathy is not subject to truth

00:26:57.160 both theological and factual truth then it becomes that's when it becomes harmful because it is not a good

00:27:04.340 rudder for your ship it could be um a good part of your cargo it could be a good part of your ship or

00:27:12.040 maybe cargo isn't the right metaphor it could be like a part of what guides you it cannot be your rudder it

00:27:19.480 cannot be what the the deciding factor in where you actually go the truth has to be

00:27:26.680 god's truth has to be so when it comes to approaching conversations about race with

00:27:34.700 empathy what tends to happen among christians who mean well is that they then move to embrace claims

00:27:40.860 that are arguable at best so for example that every disparity in outcomes between white and black

00:27:46.700 americans are because of injustice and white supremacy that every negative outcome for a black american

00:27:51.560 is the result of unfair treatment or an unfair system why because very often the same people

00:27:57.620 that are that are saying uh or talking about their pain are also making these objective claims

00:28:02.840 so because we want to be empathetic um we agree with them it's not empathetic to argue and if a white

00:28:09.240 person has already acknowledged the reality that they will never know what it's like to be a black person

00:28:13.700 in this country it can feel like it's not their place to argue that or that they have um or they feel like

00:28:19.700 they don't have the ability to even talk about it so what happens is we as christians move from empathy

00:28:24.740 feeling someone's pain trying to understand their perspective listening to them which again is all

00:28:28.940 good to simply accepting every claim and argument even if they're not objectively true which again can

00:28:34.300 be disastrous so that means we've moved into an unloving territory because it is not loving according

00:28:40.120 to scripture to lie and as we've already established accepting lies has policy consequences and policies

00:28:45.660 affect people in the case of defunding the police and much of so-called criminal justice reform the

00:28:51.540 consequence is more black people dying by homicide um and here's why empathy can be so blinding it is

00:28:58.720 true that we don't have access to someone's personal experience but we all have access to facts you don't

00:29:04.460 have to be a certain skin color to look at data to look at history so when someone claims that there is

00:29:09.080 institutional racism against black americans today we can ask how let's look at the specific

00:29:14.640 examples and where there are specific examples yes let's look to dismantle it but let's look at

00:29:19.300 those specific examples before accepting the claim because every single official policy and program in

00:29:24.240 place right now from colleges to corporate america discriminates in favor of black americans not against

00:29:28.620 them when people say that there is an epidemic of police officers shooting unarmed black men we can

00:29:33.900 point to the numbers and say well we don't know if that's really true when someone says the reason for

00:29:38.420 fatherlessness among black americans is because of the uh because the the state is unfairly

00:29:44.380 imprisoning black men well we can point to the fact that the fatherlessness rates started to

00:29:48.920 increase not in the 1980s um when there was a rise in policing and these tough on crime policies but

00:29:56.180 actually in the 1960s at the start of the welfare state and by the way the rate also increased at the

00:30:01.920 same rate among white families um it's not empathetic to ask these questions it's not empathetic to bring

00:30:08.760 things up but it is right again because the truth or a lie will determine not just the narratives and

00:30:15.780 not just what people believe but also what the people in charge decide and what the people in

00:30:19.800 charge decide then will affect people you know whenever these situations happen after george floyd or

00:30:28.520 after um after any of these conversations which by the way the empathetic side sometimes is right

00:30:34.840 sometimes they're sometimes it's true like the accusations that they make are sometimes accurate

00:30:39.520 and that's fine all i'm saying is we have to subject ourselves first not how we feel not to empathy not

00:30:44.840 how someone else feels or what they say but what is actually true but whenever we do that whenever we

00:30:50.840 ask the questions whenever we give statistical context you're told um that you're unloving that it's

00:30:56.780 wrong there's not time that you're racist you're called a bigot and all of these things when really all

00:31:01.500 you're trying to do is help and understand people see what is actually true so we can make reasonable

00:31:07.420 decisions um i think about this i think about this metaphor and i ask people like what is loving in

00:31:14.780 this situation if your toddler tells you that they think that there is a monster in their closet um or

00:31:22.580 they think that there's a monster in the corner of their room and you actually know this is just a

00:31:27.080 metaphor don't read too far into this like which part is which here i'm just talking about empathy

00:31:32.660 versus the truth and they see they they see like a jacket over the lamp in the corner of the room and

00:31:40.020 they think it's a monster and they call you to their room what is the more loving thing to do is the

00:31:45.980 more loving thing to do say yes you're absolutely right your fears are valid that is a monster good

00:31:52.360 luck or is the more loving thing to do to turn the light on and say i totally understand your fear

00:31:59.000 and i see why you think that and i'm sorry that you feel that way for your experience that must be

00:32:04.660 really scary but let me show you what is actually true let me show you what is real if you were to

00:32:09.960 justify your toddler's fears and to say yeah there is a monster in your room your feelings are valid

00:32:15.040 they're absolutely right you're just perpetuating more fear who knows what your child

00:32:19.940 is going to do that would be irresponsible that might be empathetic to try to validate their fear

00:32:26.280 in that way but it's not actually truthful and it could it could lead to bad outcomes psychological

00:32:31.480 outcomes or who knows maybe they try to break the lamp you understand the metaphor truth is not always

00:32:39.580 empathetic and it is not always soft and it doesn't always come across as compassionate it isn't

00:32:45.920 always well received but it is important especially when we're talking about things of such great

00:32:51.720 confidence i think empathy so easily manipulates christian women into accepting narratives and

00:32:59.520 accepting things that aren't true because we of course are all attracted to someone's feelings to

00:33:06.320 someone's fears to someone's experiences to someone's stories and that's fine i think we should be i

00:33:12.040 i think god created us like that especially christian women like that i think that we should lean in to

00:33:18.080 those natural feelings of compassion and nurturing and understanding that we have and not arguing that

00:33:23.580 we should be calloused that we should shut someone down and we should question someone's experiences all i'm

00:33:28.440 saying is that we cannot allow our empathy to listen to someone's experiences and say that that is the

00:33:34.640 objective fact and the rule across the board that should then lay the basis of future policy and our

00:33:40.380 understanding of how the world works what i'm saying is that we have to be a little bit more

00:33:46.040 critically thinking we have to not only ask what does god say justice is what does god say truth is

00:33:51.240 what does god say love looks like but we also have to be reasonable and logical use the minds that god

00:33:57.700 gave us the resources that god gave us to research ourselves to look into the numbers to look into the

00:34:03.280 claims and to really second guess a lot of what the mainstream social justice narratives tell us

00:34:08.140 not just about this but about anything i use this example simply because i think it's the one that

00:34:14.620 trips us up the most because we have good intentions to understand people and to understand their concerns

00:34:23.540 but it can also be the thing that allows us to believe things that just aren't true this is one example

00:34:32.140 of how empathy can harm empathy as i said just like autonomy just like authenticity just like any other

00:34:40.300 virtue has to be subject first to god's word has to be subject first to theological truth and i'll i'll

00:34:50.480 explain a little bit about what i mean authenticity being yourself can be a really good thing it is a good

00:34:56.400 thing in the sense that you don't want to be fake you don't want to pretend to be something or someone

00:35:00.480 that you're not but authenticity when unbridled by a value system that is bigger than you that is

00:35:09.400 bigger than yours it can lead to the justification of all kinds of sin and selfishness you can do

00:35:15.240 whatever you want to do because you're just doing you autonomy is the same way we've seen autonomy

00:35:20.740 uses justification for abortion if all that matters is that you're in control of your body in your life

00:35:26.320 then you can justify any kind of sin and selfishness but autonomy over your life and your

00:35:31.720 body can be a good thing authenticity being yourself can be a good thing as long as they are subjected

00:35:37.000 first to your submission to christ and his word the same thing is true of empathy empathy can be a good

00:35:44.100 thing as long as it's it is subjected first to the truth all of this is really tough for the christian

00:35:51.060 because we have a high view of the individual we have a high view of human beings being made in the

00:35:57.160 image of god so that means we believe that their feelings and their stories matter we don't just look

00:36:02.420 at people as data points or as statistics we actually do care about their personal experiences

00:36:09.060 and i think the desire to fix someone's circumstance or to assuage someone's fears or to link arms with them

00:36:15.980 and say i will fight this battle with you is good i think it is even christ-like in some ways

00:36:23.220 but again when we are led by things and feelings that aren't true we can actually be aiding and abetting

00:36:32.680 in someone's destruction and societal destruction rather than something that is good i think another example

00:36:38.800 of this is with the death penalty let me just wade into all the most controversial stuff today but all

00:36:47.220 of this made me think um about this case in texas um about a woman named melissa lucio and she is a mom

00:36:57.580 that was convicted of killing who her two-year-old back in the early 2000s and i've seen a lot of

00:37:06.040 conservatives in texas say that she is not just that she shouldn't get the death penalty but also

00:37:12.080 that she is innocent and that she did nothing wrong that she didn't commit this crime the innocence

00:37:17.340 project we've talked about the innocence project and i think that they um have very dishonest

00:37:23.900 motivations i don't actually think that they care about people's innocence i think that they think

00:37:27.780 that the death penalty in general is wrong so whether someone is innocent or not is not as much of a

00:37:32.700 concern to them as it is that the person isn't executed and however they often make the argument

00:37:39.900 that the person is actually innocent when they're not and that is true about melissa lucio a lot of

00:37:45.320 conservatives i think have become sympathetic to her cause and have also said that she is an innocent

00:37:50.680 person because the innocent innocence project has said so innocence project has said she's like this

00:37:55.180 wonderful mom that she that times were hard she was sexually abused in her past but she did the very

00:37:59.700 best she could and she's basically being framed by this prosecutor who just wanted to appear

00:38:04.580 tough on crime and then of course there was this hulu documentary um talking about her called melissa

00:38:10.520 versus texas and those documentaries are notoriously biased and only really show you one side and i did

00:38:17.840 some digging into this and i can do more on this because that's not what this episode is about i'm trying

00:38:23.800 to give you another example of how empathy can blind us to reality when we take on someone's feelings and

00:38:29.960 story it can blind us to what is actually true or other competing facts that actually contradict their

00:38:35.800 story and the feelings that we or they might have and um so i won't get into all of the details of this

00:38:42.140 particular case but all i did was look at the court transcripts so what did her attorney say what did the

00:38:48.100 prosecution say what did the witnesses say what did the journalist at the time um when she was being

00:38:55.700 sentenced say that tends to be far less uh biased than the journalism that we are seeing today and what

00:39:04.360 i found is that the innocence projects claims that she was a perfect mom that there was no evidence of

00:39:09.920 abuse that there was no evidence whatsoever that she could have possibly killed her child

00:39:14.360 um were simply not true that her attorney in court her attorney who was trying to argue that she

00:39:21.600 should not get the death penalty said look melissa lucio abused her child she bit her child yes sure

00:39:28.380 she sexually abused her child yes sure she bruised her child she broke her arm but his argument was that

00:39:34.460 he did not she did not push her down the stairs and that was not how this child died so even the

00:39:39.880 defending attorney of melissa lucio said yes she was an abusive mom she was a terrible mom she's

00:39:45.100 admitted to being a terrible mom the innocence project and other conservatives in texas who were

00:39:49.300 trying to get governor abbott to grant her clemency are all saying no she was a wonderful mom she

00:39:54.160 couldn't have committed this crime it was just because she had a bad past and she was poor and that's why

00:39:59.600 she's being picked on all you have to do is read the court transcripts and you can see what her

00:40:04.920 defending attorney admitted to that the emergency room physician that the paramedics who showed up

00:40:10.340 said that this was the worst case of child abuse that they had ever seen in their entire career

00:40:15.900 those are the facts that's what the witness said that's what her defending attorney admitted to

00:40:20.920 and not only that not only was she then sentenced to the death penalty in the original case but also in

00:40:28.060 2011 the texas court of criminal appeals upheld her conviction and death penalty in 2011 um and so

00:40:36.440 this has been hashed out the evidence has been looked at multiple times the witnesses said what

00:40:42.660 they said the defending attorney admitted what he admitted she actually confessed of course the

00:40:47.580 innocence project said that that was coerced but what happens in this case also in the case of

00:40:51.760 julius jones which we did an episode on which the innocence project said that there's no way he could

00:40:56.020 have been guilty again just blatantly lied about that what happens to christians and even christian

00:41:02.540 conservatives we hear someone's story we say oh we just have we have empathy for this they must be

00:41:07.500 innocent because they came from a poor background or because of the color of their skin or because of

00:41:12.240 these other factors and we won't even allow ourselves to look at the facts of the case because we don't

00:41:16.920 want to appear empathetic so we self-censor we don't even want to look at the truth we it's not just that

00:41:22.620 empathy is inhibiting us from looking into the truth it's that we don't want to seem unempathetic

00:41:29.120 so we're not looking into the truth because we're afraid of what people might say that is not christ-like

00:41:35.120 that is not biblical love love does not rejoice in falsehood or rejoice in wrongdoing it rejoices

00:41:41.680 with the truth now we've also talked about the death penalty and whether that is a just punishment of

00:41:47.460 course i believe so because i agree with god and god created the death penalty and he didn't just

00:41:53.040 suggest the death penalty but before the creation of israel and genesis 9 6 he demands the death

00:41:58.560 penalty for murder and if god is love as first john 4 8 says and he demands the death penalty in cases of

00:42:05.620 murder and then the most loving and just thing i can do is agree with the god who is love and created

00:42:10.760 justice and demands the death penalty for murder i'm not going to out love or out justice god but

00:42:16.600 again empathy which is only taking on the pain of the people who are telling us their pain and their

00:42:22.300 story when that is supreme that robs us of being able to look at justice impartially according to

00:42:29.220 what god says is justice and to love the way that god says to love which is in accordance with truth

00:42:35.500 what he says is truth and what is actually factually true the death penalty is another instance of this we

00:42:42.480 cannot allow empathy to rob us of that which is true that is my charge my call my heart for christian

00:42:52.580 women not that we would stop loving people not that we would stop having soft hearts for people's

00:42:57.420 stories not that we would stop trying to understand people's experiences and pain because i think that's

00:43:02.760 really important but gosh that we wouldn't allow that to make our minds mushy too like that's what ends up

00:43:09.200 happening is that our hearts are so soft that our minds actually become like oatmeal like and we

00:43:14.800 stop thinking we stop asking questions we stop caring about the facts we only listen to people's

00:43:20.920 experiences we don't even ask ourselves but what does god say is true what did the statistics say what

00:43:25.940 does the data say all of that matters in fact if you care about people if you care about really loving

00:43:30.620 people you'll care about all of those things more than you care about feeling someone's pain

00:43:35.240 that's the hard truth of it and we don't have time to get into the dangers of unfettered inclusion

00:43:41.680 today but i have a lot to say about that um and so maybe i'll do that on thursday or maybe i'll do that

00:43:48.380 next next week i'm not sure um and maybe i'll get into more of this melissa lucio story on thursday y'all

00:43:54.660 tell me what you're interested in hearing all right that might seem kind of random i'm not really sure

00:44:00.040 why i decided that was the thing that i want to talk about i think it's because we talked about it at

00:44:03.720 auburn and i've been writing about that and thinking about that a lot um recently just how

00:44:10.100 this trips us up as christian women so much and i think it's an impediment to wisdom it really is

00:44:15.440 it's an impediment to discernment and let me pull up um james 4 because this verse just came to mind

00:44:26.580 oops no it's james 3

00:44:29.040 okay this is verse 13 who is wise and understanding among you by his good conduct let him show his

00:44:39.940 works in the meekness of wisdom but if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts

00:44:44.280 do not boast and be false to the truth this is not the wisdom that comes from above but is earthly

00:44:49.640 unspiritual and demonic for where jealousy and selfish ambition exist there will be disorder in

00:44:54.680 every vile practice but the wisdom from above is first pure then peaceable gentle open to reason

00:45:02.460 full of mercy and good fruits impartial and sincere and a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by

00:45:10.640 those who make peace wisdom from above is open to reason it creates good fruit and it is impartial

00:45:20.440 and sincere that is the wisdom and not just the wisdom but i would say also the love from above

00:45:26.940 very different than the vitriolic unreliable worldly superficial empathy that we see touted by the world

00:45:34.320 today all right thank you guys so much for listening if you love this podcast please leave us a five star

00:45:41.660 review we will be back here tomorrow

00:45:44.480 you

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - November 02, 2022

REPLAY： Is Empathy Making Us Stupid？

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