Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - REPLAY ｜ Is Public School the Best Choice for Christians？

00:00:00.600 The Gospel Coalition hosted a debate in which Bible teacher Jen Wilkin argues in favor of

00:00:06.620 public education.

00:00:07.880 You guys had a lot of thoughts about that.

00:00:10.340 And as you can imagine, so do I.

00:00:13.020 I know this is a long episode, as you can see, but it is worth it.

00:00:16.220 Trust me.

00:00:16.980 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:19.960 Go to GoodRanchers.com.

00:00:21.100 Use promo code Allie at checkout. 1.00

00:00:22.540 That's GoodRanchers.com.

00:00:23.960 Promo code Allie. 1.00

00:00:30.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable.

00:00:36.700 Hope everyone had a wonderful week.

00:00:39.140 Man, oh man, there's so much to talk about.

00:00:42.880 So much that I want to talk about today and this week.

00:00:46.260 But this entire episode will be dedicated to one subject because of the volume of messages

00:00:52.620 that I've received from you guys over the past week asking me to talk about this very thing.

00:00:57.860 So today, we are talking about the recent public school versus Christian education debate

00:01:04.300 hosted by the Gospel Coalition.

00:01:07.360 Representing each side was Dr. Jonathan Pennington.

00:01:10.440 He's a father of six, professor at Southern Seminary, who homeschooled his children as well

00:01:14.880 as sent them to a Christian private school at a different point in their lives.

00:01:18.920 And then Jen Wilkin, mother of five, an author, Bible teacher who sent her kids to public school

00:01:25.400 all the way through.

00:01:26.120 So both offer, in this debate, convictions for why they chose the education options that

00:01:33.040 they did.

00:01:33.360 If you're not familiar with who these people are, they have some influence in the evangelical

00:01:38.860 world, especially Jen Wilkin.

00:01:41.320 She has taught many women through her Bible studies and through various teaching avenues.

00:01:47.580 So I think that's part of why these people were chosen.

00:01:50.100 And the reason I'm discussing this debate on my show is because, like I said, many of

00:01:55.460 you, when the debate aired, was published last week, asked me my thoughts on Jen Wilkin's

00:02:01.780 perspective, knowing how much I've talked about and others have talked about on my show the

00:02:07.540 importance of Christian education, not just private school, whether that be homeschool or

00:02:12.920 private school or some kind of hybrid.

00:02:15.800 The debate also generated a lot of buts on Christian social media, especially from those 0.55

00:02:22.040 who are big proponents of Christian education and critics of our public education system.

00:02:27.260 So Jen Wilkin has received some backlash. 0.98

00:02:30.600 Some I think is very fair.

00:02:32.080 Some maybe not so fair, maybe blatant misrepresentations of what she said.

00:02:40.600 But some of that, I think a lot of it, I think, is very legitimate and very called for.

00:02:46.560 She responded to the backlash, and I will address her response later after we kind of go

00:02:52.660 through the debate and I share my thoughts.

00:02:55.120 I will share my responses to some of the arguments that Jen Wilkin made.

00:02:59.820 I will play some clips, and I will be very careful to give you the full context of what

00:03:04.420 is being said.

00:03:05.500 Careful never to decontextualize or intentionally misrepresent her argument.

00:03:10.000 I will give you my thoughts.

00:03:11.600 If you have not watched the full debate, which I simply don't have time to play here, I will,

00:03:17.540 like I said, do my best to give the full context of everything she's saying.

00:03:21.100 But I can't play the full debate here.

00:03:23.220 I encourage you to go watch it at some point.

00:03:26.140 Don't rely on me or what on anyone else says to get a full picture of what was discussed.

00:03:33.160 Go watch it for yourself.

00:03:34.840 I've done so twice at this point.

00:03:37.000 I've watched the excerpts multiple times just to make sure that I understand what is really

00:03:41.520 being said.

00:03:42.980 Before I get into it, I want to say some things up front.

00:03:48.000 I kind of have a long preamble.

00:03:50.460 So just get ready for that.

00:03:51.420 Now, if you want to skip this part, we will put the time codes for when I'm talking about

00:03:56.220 what in the description of this episode, whether you're watching on YouTube or whether you are

00:04:00.160 listening, go to the description and you can click on that.

00:04:03.020 You can skip this.

00:04:03.880 You can go right to my responses to the video itself.

00:04:06.760 However, however, I will warn you that if you skip my introduction or even if you don't

00:04:14.120 skip this part and then you accuse me of not saying something that I did say in this or

00:04:19.260 I'm not providing a caveat or a perspective that I did actually provide in this part,

00:04:23.300 I will buy you a ticket on Elon Musk's next ride to the moon.

00:04:28.260 Just kidding.

00:04:29.380 I won't actually do that, but I will block and report you on Instagram.

00:04:34.260 I'm kidding.

00:04:35.140 Also kidding.

00:04:35.920 I also won't do that, but I will probably block you.

00:04:37.960 Okay, I probably won't block you, but I will probably just ignore you or I will respond

00:04:43.700 to you and say in all caps, come back to me when you've actually listened to the episode.

00:04:49.040 So that is my warning.

00:04:50.180 You can skip ahead.

00:04:51.900 But if you tell me that I didn't say something that I did say and what I'm about to say,

00:04:57.720 I will be upset.

00:04:59.240 But seriously, I welcome your feedback and I welcome your alternate perspectives.

00:05:04.680 A lot of you have engaged with me in that way on Instagram.

00:05:08.260 So you know that I welcome your respectful yet passionate disagreement with what I say.

00:05:12.760 But please don't message me and tell me I said something that I did not say or that I did

00:05:19.220 not say something that I did say.

00:05:22.000 I understand.

00:05:23.320 I totally understand that this is an emotional.

00:05:26.620 I don't say that in a degrading way.

00:05:28.820 An understandably emotional contentious topic.

00:05:31.680 People feel justifiably in a lot of ways defensive about the choices that they have made for their

00:05:38.480 family as far as education goes.

00:05:40.740 And it is hard to hear someone say that they think that you've perhaps made the wrong choice.

00:05:47.000 I get it.

00:05:48.060 But listen, this podcast is where I share my stance on things.

00:05:53.760 And you are not going to agree with everything I say, just like I wouldn't agree with everything

00:05:58.120 that you said.

00:05:58.720 If you had a podcast, you might not like everything that I say.

00:06:02.160 Maybe sometimes you think I could have said it differently or you wish that I had included

00:06:07.020 something that I didn't.

00:06:08.240 That's OK.

00:06:09.180 Either you can let it slide and you can stick around or not.

00:06:12.700 That's totally up to you.

00:06:14.680 But I will just say, here's what you will not get from my podcast that I think is a little

00:06:20.140 uncomfortable for some in the world in which we live, and especially the Christian world 1.00

00:06:27.140 in which we live, and perhaps especially the female evangelical world in which most of you

00:06:34.020 and I occupy.

00:06:36.480 You will not often hear me say that two options are morally equivalent.

00:06:42.940 You will not typically hear me say, well, whatever works for you, whatever you feel like, or both

00:06:50.880 sides of this argument are equally valid.

00:06:54.140 Whatever you decide is just fine.

00:06:57.560 Now, before you accuse me, after hearing that, of legalism, because I'm actually much closer

00:07:03.680 to a rule questioner than a rule follower have been my whole life, I do believe that there

00:07:08.700 are lots of things that occupy that free personal choice realm.

00:07:13.300 Lots and lots of things.

00:07:14.920 But regarding the important cultural, political, moral, theological things we discuss on this

00:07:21.620 podcast, I typically land on one side or the other based on conviction, which means necessarily

00:07:27.480 that I don't think the other side of the argument holds as much water as the one that I've chosen.

00:07:32.460 And I will passionately argue for my side.

00:07:34.920 I mean, that's part of why I have a podcast.

00:07:37.300 That's part of why you guys follow me.

00:07:39.160 I enjoy that.

00:07:40.420 I really do.

00:07:41.100 I enjoy others doing that, too.

00:07:43.260 People publicly respond to my public arguments all the time.

00:07:48.040 And even when they're snarky, which they very often are, I don't take that as a personal

00:07:53.720 attack.

00:07:54.160 I might not like their argument.

00:07:55.520 I might not even like how they said it.

00:07:57.560 But whatever.

00:07:58.600 That is what being in the public square is.

00:08:01.820 I am choosing to say something publicly, state an opinion publicly, give my perspective and

00:08:07.080 publicly, I expect people to publicly and hopefully respectfully, hopefully accurately respond to

00:08:14.660 those things.

00:08:15.500 I mean, there are such things as personal attacks.

00:08:17.360 I've definitely received those, those kind of ad hominem below the belt attacks.

00:08:21.940 That never feels good or purposeful public misrepresentations of something that you said,

00:08:28.780 just deceit and lie, decontextualization.

00:08:31.300 Um, that's never good.

00:08:33.660 I don't like that.

00:08:34.980 But public debate and public disagreement with what someone says publicly, I think is

00:08:40.180 not only fine, but I think can be very healthy.

00:08:43.760 I think that vigorous debate, both in secular culture and in the church, that's the really

00:08:49.900 sad part, is actually lacking today.

00:08:51.680 Because so many people, women especially, I think, see passionate disagreement as attack.

00:09:00.020 So we kind of embrace this moral relativism.

00:09:03.920 And the most that we'll say when it comes to these contentious topics is, well, I feel

00:09:10.200 like this and then we'll finish it with, but I don't know.

00:09:14.420 I mean, sometimes that's my response to things too.

00:09:17.540 I mean, sometimes that's the most you can muster and that's fine when that's honest.

00:09:22.040 But I talk about the things here that I have really thought about, that I've read about,

00:09:29.260 that I've prayed about, that I've talked to many other people about who agree with me

00:09:32.540 and don't agree with me.

00:09:33.940 Listen to other people talk about who agree with me and don't agree with me.

00:09:37.420 And I have typically come to a conclusion on the things I talk about.

00:09:41.840 That doesn't mean that I don't change my mind in the future.

00:09:44.360 That doesn't mean that I've never made mistakes.

00:09:46.200 Obviously, I'm extremely fallible, but I'm going to give you like a strong case or try

00:09:52.420 my best to give you a strong case for what I think.

00:09:55.500 And that makes, in my experience, a certain type of Christian woman upset. 1.00

00:10:00.940 I can usually pinpoint exactly who this person is and who she follows based on the kinds

00:10:07.360 of messages that she sends me.

00:10:09.280 It is the quote unquote do-batter, constant tone policing type who ironically actually tend

00:10:15.740 to carry in their own words a lot of judgment and resentment.

00:10:18.420 And they don't like that I present an argument that they don't like with conviction.

00:10:24.180 Even if I go out of my way to respect the other side, even when I offer necessary caveats,

00:10:29.600 they will say that to state my position so firmly is wrong, simple, dangerous to the Christian

00:10:35.660 community, whatever.

00:10:37.420 And the funny thing is, though, that I've noticed, and I'm saying all this because I think it

00:10:41.420 matters.

00:10:41.820 I think it sets up this, what we're about to talk about.

00:10:43.960 But I also know that a lot of you have experienced this as well.

00:10:47.240 And I just am trying to put words to what you've seen and how you feel and to let you

00:10:51.040 know that you're not alone.

00:10:52.940 That's what the name of this show is about.

00:10:55.600 The funny thing is, though, is that this type of Christian woman is actually very dogmatic 1.00

00:11:01.800 themselves in their own way.

00:11:03.680 These are Christian women who are often very dogmatic on, for example, the vaccine being 1.00

00:11:09.300 a sign of loving your neighbor or wearing a mask being a sign of loving your neighbor,

00:11:13.480 systemic racism being an ongoing plague in this country, Trump being harmful, etc.

00:11:19.780 So what I usually find is that they're uncomfortable, not with just the fact that I have a clear

00:11:27.460 stance on something, but that I have clearly stated a conservative stance on something or

00:11:32.680 a stance that they don't like.

00:11:33.940 They prefer either a form of, I feel like this, but I don't know, or embracing the more left-leaning

00:11:41.760 position, what they would call not the left-leaning position, what they would call the empathetic

00:11:47.380 position or the moderate position.

00:11:50.140 But a stance that I usually see as not empathetic at all, but simply as feelings driven and

00:11:56.360 incorrect, like not based on fact.

00:11:59.220 And they don't like that I feel that way and that I talk about these things.

00:12:03.720 I mean, these are people who are so mad that I would not go along with, well, riots are the

00:12:08.780 voice of the unheard and all of the violence and the recklessness that we're seeing in the

00:12:13.200 wake of George Floyd is just totally justified and we should just listen and learn.

00:12:17.400 And they think that I'm divisive for not going along with a lot of the ideologies that we

00:12:21.700 are seeing professing Christians push forward in the name of racial reconciliation and social

00:12:29.020 justice.

00:12:29.780 They are so angry that I did not believe that taking the vaccine or wearing a mask is a biblical

00:12:36.140 sign necessarily of loving your neighbor.

00:12:39.380 And so these people, because I don't agree with them on those things, will call me unloving

00:12:43.620 or divisive or whatever.

00:12:45.260 And it's really just because I am not dogmatic in the way that they are.

00:12:49.480 And these people will say, oh, you know what?

00:12:52.460 You, the reason that you have the opinions that you do, or you talk about the things that

00:12:56.100 you do, or you say the things I don't like is because you just want to make money or you

00:13:00.160 just want to get clicks.

00:13:01.000 It's always the same kind of person who says this exact thing.

00:13:04.560 It's like they all get together.

00:13:05.980 They're on an email chain and they're like, yes, this is what we're going to say to the

00:13:09.800 conservatives that we don't agree with.

00:13:11.500 And it just kind of makes me laugh.

00:13:13.360 I mean, it makes me sad.

00:13:14.300 I'll be honest.

00:13:15.080 It does.

00:13:15.660 That makes me sad.

00:13:17.600 But it makes me laugh in a sad way. 0.98

00:13:19.820 How ignorant an accusation this is. 0.95

00:13:21.860 One, because I know where it's coming from. 0.97

00:13:23.740 This person doesn't like me and it makes them feel better to believe that I'm tricking

00:13:27.700 other people into liking me.

00:13:29.460 And two, because it is so incredibly incorrect.

00:13:33.660 I have two considerations.

00:13:35.860 Two considerations when deciding on what to talk about every day.

00:13:40.080 One, do I think it's important?

00:13:42.420 And two, do you think it's important?

00:13:44.880 Do I think it's important?

00:13:46.180 Do you think it's important?

00:13:47.960 Most of what I discuss, I discuss because a bunch of you have asked me to talk about it.

00:13:52.800 And when I see something is generating interest, and a lot of you guys are like, gosh, I need

00:13:56.640 clarity on this.

00:13:57.440 I need courage on this.

00:13:58.360 I need explanation on this.

00:13:59.900 Sometimes I rely on a guest because I'm like, well, that's out of my realm of expertise.

00:14:03.560 I have no idea if we're going to nuclear war.

00:14:05.220 Can someone smarter than me please come tell my audience what the deal is?

00:14:09.680 But a lot of times these are things like the debate today that I'm thinking about too.

00:14:13.680 And I'm like, you know what?

00:14:14.440 Yeah, I think that I can help my audience navigate through this because I really care about this

00:14:19.440 and I see that they really care about this.

00:14:21.120 There are so many controversies actually on the show that we avoid so much drama that

00:14:28.120 we do not talk about because we don't want to get in the middle of it that we know would

00:14:31.620 probably get us a lot of clicks, would probably get us a lot of attention that we just avoid

00:14:36.740 because I don't want to get in the drama.

00:14:40.800 I don't want to call out that person.

00:14:43.560 There's so many things, so many people that we do not talk about because even if it generated

00:14:50.240 a lot of attention, it wouldn't be worth it to me.

00:14:52.740 And it's just not something that I want to discuss.

00:14:55.320 There is so much effort.

00:14:56.980 You have no idea behind the scenes that we put into making sure that we don't have clickbait 0.88

00:15:02.380 titles or that don't match the content of what we're actually saying.

00:15:06.400 So much time ensuring that I am accurately representing the other side of the argument.

00:15:10.800 I am obviously imperfect at this as we all are, but that is always our goal.

00:15:15.360 It doesn't help me.

00:15:16.420 It doesn't help anyone.

00:15:17.180 It doesn't help you if I am purposely and consistently misrepresenting someone or their

00:15:22.900 arguments.

00:15:23.400 Like, that doesn't help me in any way.

00:15:26.480 Like, if I were just trying to get as many followers as possible by talking about these

00:15:32.440 things like we're talking about today, do you think that I would talk about the things

00:15:37.220 that I do?

00:15:38.580 Like, think about some of the people with really big platforms, especially the Christians

00:15:41.900 with really big platforms.

00:15:43.240 You often do not see them talking about the things that I do because it makes segments of

00:15:49.040 their audience mad.

00:15:49.720 And now I'm not saying that they're, that that's bad, that that's a, that they should

00:15:54.000 weigh into, you know, uh, all of these controversies.

00:15:57.240 That's not their platform.

00:15:58.440 I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but they often will avoid these kinds of controversial

00:16:03.280 things because it's, it's not worth it to them.

00:16:07.260 And so if that were me, like if I were just trying to appeal to as many people as possible,

00:16:11.780 I would avoid the private school, public school debate.

00:16:14.560 I wouldn't talk about reformed theology versus Catholic theology.

00:16:17.760 I would not have interviewed an ex-Mormon.

00:16:20.800 I wouldn't call for the banning of pit bulls.

00:16:23.320 I am constantly talking about things that probably cut out like a potential portion of

00:16:29.220 an audience.

00:16:29.760 Like I have decided this is, this is the narrow audience and potential audience that I am

00:16:36.400 trying to reach.

00:16:37.220 And I'm going to talk about the things that they care about and that I care about.

00:16:40.020 And I'm going to call it relatable because I am part of this group of thousands of Christian

00:16:44.320 women who often feel neglected by mainstream evangelicalism, certainly by mainstream culture,

00:16:50.140 certainly by mainstream media.

00:16:53.860 And so we're going to relate about the things that we're concerned about and how we're thinking

00:16:57.200 through all of this.

00:16:58.080 This podcast is not for everyone.

00:17:00.020 I am talking about what I care about and what you care about, period.

00:17:03.300 I have always wanted to cast a deep gnat in this segment of the world, not a wide net,

00:17:08.500 which is exactly why the show is called what it is.

00:17:11.440 Exactly why, by the grace of God, we have the community that we do here.

00:17:15.840 Exactly why, whenever we meet in person, the first thing you say is, I feel like I know

00:17:19.780 you.

00:17:20.540 Yeah, me too.

00:17:21.780 That's what this is about.

00:17:22.880 So all that to say, take it or leave it.

00:17:26.740 I am here to give you my fallible yet thought out perspective on things.

00:17:30.900 And you are here to listen.

00:17:32.380 We don't need to agree on everything to get along.

00:17:34.760 My IRL friends and I disagree on things and I still love them very much.

00:17:38.920 We can do that.

00:17:39.560 Now, I would not still be friends with them if they were constantly sending me messages

00:17:44.100 saying, do better, disappointed, but not surprised that you're against masks, that you won't be

00:17:51.220 for gun confiscation.

00:17:52.420 This person always claims, by the way, oh, I'm a conservative Christian, too.

00:17:56.720 I'm conservative, too.

00:17:58.300 And yet they're constantly school marming me, chastising me on not agreeing with them on

00:18:03.800 things.

00:18:04.160 So like, no, we probably can't be friends if you're constantly doing that.

00:18:07.400 But if you want to respectfully disagree with me, as I have with a lot of people, especially

00:18:11.260 over the past few days about this public school thing, open to that.

00:18:14.460 Please stick around.

00:18:15.600 As I said, I enjoy debate.

00:18:17.580 I always have.

00:18:19.040 I do not see vigorous disagreement as attack.

00:18:21.960 And it's the oddest and saddest thing to me when people accuse me or anyone else of,

00:18:26.440 quote unquote, attacking someone because we publicly disagree with someone's public argument.

00:18:30.580 Again, that is what the public square is for.

00:18:32.320 That's healthy.

00:18:33.040 That's productive.

00:18:33.640 That's edifying.

00:18:34.240 That's how we learn.

00:18:35.660 Look at the Reformation, the Great Awakening, even the 20th century debates on the inerrancy

00:18:39.980 of Scripture.

00:18:40.800 Look at the New Testament.

00:18:42.280 We see debate.

00:18:42.960 We see calling out.

00:18:43.820 We see rebuke.

00:18:44.520 We see public admonition.

00:18:45.960 Yes, done from love.

00:18:47.600 But we see these things.

00:18:48.960 I'm not talking about Matthew 5 personal qualms.

00:18:51.440 I'm talking about publicly responding to public ideas and or public error.

00:18:55.020 I think that's not only OK.

00:18:56.320 I think it's good.

00:18:57.220 I think it's how we figure out what the truth is.

00:18:59.100 It's part of how we sharpen each other.

00:19:00.720 And we can do that without impugning someone's motives or calling names.

00:19:04.860 That's why I'm extremely careful about using terms like false teacher.

00:19:08.000 I'm extremely hesitant always to tell people not to follow someone or read any of their

00:19:13.180 books.

00:19:13.500 In fact, I almost never knew that unless it's really obvious.

00:19:16.560 Someone like Jen Hatmaker or Glennon Doyle.

00:19:18.240 I will go out of my way to compliment the person with whom I'm disagreeing.

00:19:21.660 But I will still disagree.

00:19:22.860 I think, and I'm almost done with my preamble, I think the church needs more public hashing

00:19:29.140 out of theological, political, and cultural issues.

00:19:33.040 Less, well, this is what so-and-so said, or this is what the Gospel Coalition published,

00:19:38.040 so it must be right.

00:19:38.980 Anything outside of that is extreme and fear-mongering.

00:19:42.240 That's not healthy unity.

00:19:43.960 Healthy unity is worked out through debate, discussion, disagreement, with the same goal

00:19:48.800 in mind of following and glorifying Christ.

00:19:50.760 I think more division, here we go, I think more division is caused by lack of vigorous

00:19:57.200 debate than by the presence of it.

00:20:00.860 And I personally, here we go, we're shifting into this actual public school Christian education

00:20:09.120 debate.

00:20:10.040 I personally did not think this debate published by the Gospel Coalition was very vigorous at

00:20:16.200 all.

00:20:17.480 That's why I'm responding to it rather than just saying, yep.

00:20:20.760 The other guy covered it.

00:20:22.600 That's why I think it is good that others are talking about it and that it has sparked

00:20:28.040 public dialogue, passionate public dialogue.

00:20:30.640 I thought Wilkin did a better job than Dr. Pennington of presenting her side persuasively and confidently.

00:20:38.080 Dr. Pennington seems awesome.

00:20:39.920 He seems great.

00:20:41.020 But nearly every answer you will see as you watch it and as we talk about it in just a

00:20:45.560 second, he gave was caveated by acknowledging first the validity of her point.

00:20:49.980 There was a lot there that was unsaid, too.

00:20:54.000 Like, I don't blame him for that.

00:20:55.540 I've been in discussions where I leave wishing I had said something that I didn't say.

00:21:00.760 But there was so much to be desired after this.

00:21:02.940 I know you guys felt like that, too.

00:21:04.540 He did make good points that I will highlight.

00:21:06.700 But overall, I wished that the Christian education position was presented more confidently.

00:21:12.620 Oh, there was so much to say.

00:21:13.680 So before I start playing the clips, I do have a few just a few things to say, but it's not

00:21:20.400 it's not part of my preamble.

00:21:22.500 It's just part of the debate that we are about to enter into that will probably answer some

00:21:28.960 of the questions that you have.

00:21:30.640 All right.

00:21:31.360 So let me say just a couple of things.

00:21:33.640 And again, if you tell me that I did not say one of these things, I will.

00:21:40.180 I don't even I don't know.

00:21:44.940 I don't know.

00:21:45.540 I will call your mom and I will tell her to ground you for not listening. 0.98

00:21:51.520 I know she taught you better than that.

00:21:53.260 OK, so number one, before I get into these responses, I have absolutely nothing against

00:21:58.800 Jen Wilkin.

00:21:59.620 I don't know her personally.

00:22:00.980 I have never done her Bible studies.

00:22:02.880 I've never heard a full talk that she's given.

00:22:04.960 I know many of you out there who have greatly benefited from Wilkin's Bible studies.

00:22:09.700 It seems to me that she loves scripture.

00:22:12.340 She has a gift for teaching.

00:22:13.780 That's obvious.

00:22:15.080 Now, I know that there are differing opinions, just like there is of everyone.

00:22:18.740 Some of you out there are wary of her teaching.

00:22:20.520 You've sent me things that she has said that you think are off or maybe progressive.

00:22:26.360 I can't comment on these things because I haven't watched them in full context.

00:22:29.860 I am simply acknowledging that there are those of you who have told me that, yes, you love

00:22:34.080 her and she's helped me so much.

00:22:35.200 Others have said, well, I heard her speak and I was really disappointed by blank.

00:22:39.820 Got it.

00:22:40.800 You should be using discernment, as I know all of you are, with all people, including

00:22:45.760 with me, compare what is said to scripture always, no matter who is saying it.

00:22:50.980 I personally know only a little about her and I'm sure that she's a very nice person.

00:22:55.960 And if I were to guess, she and I probably agree.

00:22:58.500 Like if we were to line up our doctrine, line up our theology and maybe line up even what

00:23:03.040 we believe about politics and social issues, like we probably agree on most things.

00:23:08.520 Along those lines, while you will hear me disagree with her, I am not questioning her abilities

00:23:14.760 as a mom or whether her family is amazing.

00:23:16.840 I'm sure her kids are wonderful.

00:23:18.240 She talks about her kids.

00:23:19.140 They sound awesome.

00:23:20.360 Um, also, here's my next thing.

00:23:23.760 I am not questioning your abilities as a mother or whether your kids are amazing.

00:23:29.840 If you choose or did choose public school, you may or may not feel convicted or convinced

00:23:36.540 by what I say.

00:23:37.520 But it is not my intention to make you feel condemned just because I feel very strongly

00:23:43.020 about my position.

00:23:44.440 Now, Jen Wilkins' children are grown up.

00:23:49.040 They're out of school.

00:23:50.380 They have been for a while.

00:23:51.840 A lot of you have reached out to me and said, you know what?

00:23:55.380 I don't feel like I can take her opinion because she doesn't know what it's like to have a kindergartner

00:23:59.020 in these schools right now and what they're teaching.

00:24:03.000 Like things have shifted a lot in the past 10 to 15 years.

00:24:06.420 But listen, my kids are not yet in school.

00:24:10.400 So for those of some of you, um, for those of you who, who message me and said that you

00:24:15.100 feel like Jen's opinions aren't as relevant, there are some of you who might think that

00:24:20.360 my opinion is irrelevant because I don't have kids in school yet.

00:24:24.120 And if you think both of our opinions are irrelevant, you should probably go just turn

00:24:28.260 this podcast off and go get a margarita or something.

00:24:31.120 However, I am coming at this openly as someone who is considering school.

00:24:36.420 options for our kids, um, who will, will be there before we know it.

00:24:42.080 So this is something I'm thinking about a lot.

00:24:43.600 This is something that I've thought about for a long time, even before kids, but even

00:24:46.520 more so now.

00:24:47.440 So someone who grew up close to where Jen Wilkins kids grew up.

00:24:50.960 I went to a Christian school, someone who studies our public education system a lot,

00:24:54.760 who talked to a lot of different people about this.

00:24:56.540 And I am trying to make sense of all of that from my vantage point, trying to make sense

00:25:01.820 of all of the chaos of all of this and navigate it with you.

00:25:04.900 So I just want to be upfront about what my experience is here and my lack of experiences

00:25:09.760 and where I'm coming from.

00:25:11.760 Um, another last thing.

00:25:14.880 I understand that everyone's circumstance is different.

00:25:18.060 Okay.

00:25:18.360 I understand that everyone's circumstance is different.

00:25:21.600 I don't know where you live, your financial situation, your marital status, or your child's

00:25:26.820 special needs.

00:25:27.500 Even though, as you will hear, I am very pro Christian education.

00:25:32.160 I do understand that there may be situations in which public school is your only or best option.

00:25:38.860 I think this is the exception, not even close to the rule, but I acknowledge that it is possible

00:25:46.900 that this situation exists.

00:25:49.220 Really, my opinion, my position is the exact opposite of Jen's, which as you will hear is

00:25:54.640 that she believes Christian parents should, if possible, send their kids to public school

00:26:00.040 for the good of their community.

00:26:02.180 I believe Christian parents should, if possible, give their kids a Christian education for the

00:26:06.200 good of their kids and consequently for the good of the community.

00:26:11.440 Uh, so that's it.

00:26:13.020 That's my preamble.

00:26:14.160 Those are some of my caveats.

00:26:15.880 Now I will play you some clips, uh, from the show.

00:26:20.320 Some of them are on the little longer side.

00:26:22.760 We typically play like 30 seconds of clips, but I really just like want you to want to make

00:26:28.320 sure that I'm giving you the full picture of what she's saying without playing you the entire,

00:26:32.860 entire, you know, debate.

00:26:35.540 So here is, um, what she says in kind of her introductory explanation of her position

00:26:43.520 on public education.

00:26:46.100 We did choose public school out of conviction, but I always like to make clear upfront that

00:26:52.840 we did not have any special considerations in that.

00:26:55.840 Our kids, um, did not have learning disabilities.

00:26:58.280 There were no special concerns that might have played into that decision for us.

00:27:02.060 And I'm very sensitive to that.

00:27:04.040 Not only that, we always lived near excellent schools.

00:27:07.040 So I would never say everyone should choose public school.

00:27:11.900 Uh, but I would say that we should try really hard to, if at all possible, um, because we

00:27:18.140 believe in the public school ideal.

00:27:20.900 Uh, we believe that education is a right, it's necessary for human flourishing, it's good

00:27:26.540 for society, uh, it's a mark of civilization that you have an educated, uh, citizenry.

00:27:31.880 And so if that is something that you can see, then you would value that you would have quality

00:27:39.720 education for everyone, if at all possible.

00:27:43.760 And we believed that our participation in the public school system was directly related

00:27:48.560 to loving our neighbors.

00:27:50.600 And so if we could opt in at all, then we absolutely wanted to.

00:27:56.060 Okay.

00:27:56.360 So I just want to kind of make clear what was said there.

00:27:59.660 She does say some people push back on me when I said that she said this, she does say right 1.00

00:28:05.000 there that she believes that Christian parents should considering all factors.

00:28:09.920 She does give a caveat there should, if at all possible, go to public schools because

00:28:16.320 she believes this makes the public education system better, which then makes the, uh, the

00:28:21.040 community better.

00:28:22.100 And then she says this was directly related to loving our neighbors.

00:28:27.720 So that is her stance.

00:28:29.220 Uh, before this, she was saying that her stance on homeschool is, um, highly autobiographical.

00:28:36.300 She comes from a long line of educators.

00:28:38.280 There are a lot of people in her family involved in the public education system.

00:28:41.900 Um, and, um, she then after this says the worldview starts at home, she talks about the importance

00:28:48.620 of parental involvement in your child's education and their life, which of course I agree with.

00:28:53.520 She talked about, um, she said that they talked about everything that her child was learning

00:28:58.180 in the classroom.

00:28:58.920 She allowed, they allowed them to kind of navigate their way through the social issues with their

00:29:05.160 help.

00:29:05.620 Something that she didn't feel probably would be the case if they went to private schools

00:29:09.720 because they were exposed to so many different kinds of, um, different kinds of people in

00:29:14.540 public schools.

00:29:15.480 Uh, she does talk about, which I thought was an interesting point.

00:29:18.360 She says, you know, issues like so-called gender identity, or I'm adding the so-called

00:29:22.480 gender identity or sexual orientation.

00:29:24.700 They weren't just issues for her kids because they attended a public school with people of 1.00

00:29:28.540 all different kinds of backgrounds, but they were actually people.

00:29:30.860 These were embodied issues.

00:29:32.740 And so they, she feels like they were able to talk through these things in a humanizing way,

00:29:37.700 rather than in an abstract way.

00:29:40.880 She said that she also loved the involvement that her kids were able to have with special

00:29:45.160 needs kids.

00:29:46.520 Um, and she appreciated the exposure to different family types and socioeconomic backgrounds.

00:29:52.900 So that's kind of the gist of the beginning of her, of her argument.

00:29:58.380 Um, she connects it to loving her community, investing in her community, making the education system

00:30:04.280 better, and yes, loving her neighbor.

00:30:08.080 Now I have a response to those things, but I just wanted to make sure that you set it

00:30:11.680 up and that you heard what she said there, um, really the basis of her argument.

00:30:16.580 And then I'm going to play, um, the next, the next part of what she says.

00:30:20.660 And I agree with a lot of what she says here about kids being missionaries in the public

00:30:25.980 education setting.

00:30:27.080 I do think one of the misconceptions about Christian parents who send children to public

00:30:33.500 school is that we've sent them there to be missionaries, to be salt and light, but we

00:30:37.860 were not trying to send a second grader into a secular space to share the good news.

00:30:43.780 Um, we, we, we wanted to train our kids into that so that anywhere they went, that became

00:30:47.860 something that was intuitive.

00:30:49.600 And I appreciated her saying this because you do hear this a lot.

00:30:52.780 This is a debate that I've had with some of my followers is that, well, my kids, my

00:30:57.720 kindergartner, my second grader, my middle schooler, they're, you know, they're salt and

00:31:02.300 light in these schools and they are the ones who are sharing the gospel with their friends.

00:31:06.160 Like they're responsible for being the good example.

00:31:09.860 Look, they are not actually responsible as a first grader to be the missionaries to their

00:31:17.760 fellow students or for their teachers.

00:31:19.700 Now that may naturally happen as your child grows in Christ and they do set a good, good

00:31:24.680 example for their friends.

00:31:25.860 That's going to happen wherever they go, by the way, but you don't put a soldier on the

00:31:31.200 front lines who is not even big enough to hold up his shield like your child.

00:31:35.440 And I, this is not a direct quote.

00:31:38.120 This is not a quote from me.

00:31:39.400 I've heard a lot of Christians say this.

00:31:41.100 Your child is not a missionary in the public school system.

00:31:45.440 Your child is your mission field.

00:31:49.360 Like they are going to be discipled.

00:31:52.500 Okay.

00:31:52.880 They're going to be discipled by the person they spend the most time with.

00:31:59.260 And so they are not actually as a first grader going in and discipling other people.

00:32:04.100 They are being discipled by other people.

00:32:07.500 They are being discipled by the predominant worldview in whatever space they occupy for a large amount

00:32:15.720 of time.

00:32:16.780 And so I appreciate that she acknowledges that she did not send her kids into the public

00:32:20.580 education system to be missionaries.

00:32:22.520 However, I will say I get a little confused about her stated convictions here based on something

00:32:30.240 that she later says, which I'll explain in a bit.

00:32:36.620 She then talks about, she talks about fear mongering and how there's a lot of information

00:32:43.900 and misinformation out there about what is actually being taught in the public school system.

00:32:51.640 So here's what she has to say about that.

00:32:53.420 I think now the question that I get most frequently is like, but you wouldn't do that now.

00:32:57.920 Right.

00:32:58.580 Like knowing what you know now.

00:33:00.680 And my answer would be that, yes, I would, because I know what our school district is

00:33:06.860 and isn't teaching.

00:33:08.700 And what I see happening now around this conversation is a great deal of misinformation and fear mongering.

00:33:17.020 Some of the things even in our own district that parents will say are being taught, I know

00:33:21.400 are not being taught.

00:33:22.720 And what I think is happening is people read an article about something that happened somewhere

00:33:27.060 else, or they hear a story.

00:33:29.080 There's a lot of hearsay that travels around about what is or isn't going on.

00:33:32.700 And because we live in a time where fear is something that is leveraged at every turn,

00:33:38.100 it takes root.

00:33:39.560 And they end up making a fear-based decision instead of an educated decision.

00:33:44.880 So what I found interesting here is that she doesn't actually give any credence to the

00:33:52.540 legitimate concerns that parents have about what is being taught.

00:33:57.420 She does say, okay, yes, there are some concerns out there that might be happening somewhere, but she doesn't really talk about how these problems seem to have accelerated so much and become so much more pervasive in the past few years.

00:34:14.860 I don't know if she just didn't say that, but I just want to make sure that you out there who have concerns about the public education system in general or the district in your area, that you are not gaslit, that you are not convinced by this, that your legitimate concerns, your valid concerns, and yes, in some cases, like justified fear.

00:34:35.860 I'm not saying that you're running scared and that you're paranoid and that you're filled with anxiety, but that you kind of like have a healthy fear and healthy concern when it comes to the upbringing of your child and the influences that your child has in their life.

00:34:50.920 I just don't want you to be gaslit.

00:34:52.620 I don't want you to be gaslit into thinking that you're just being paranoid or that you're being

00:34:57.060 simply fearful because you don't want your child introduced to some of the things that you know that your friend's children have been introduced to,

00:35:04.000 or you're not even, you're not being a victim of propaganda because you heard that the next district over or a district in another conservative area have started pushing,

00:35:16.180 for example, racially divisive curriculum or gender ideology to the elementary schoolers and wondering, you know what, is that going to come down the pipeline for me?

00:35:27.600 Is that going to be something that is introduced to my child next year?

00:35:30.720 Maybe I just want to avoid that entirely.

00:35:33.540 Maybe I don't even want my child to be introduced to that at all.

00:35:37.000 That's not a bad basis for your decisions when your responsibility as a parent is to steward their hearts and minds well.

00:35:45.300 That doesn't mean that you're shielding them from all of those things, but you are ensuring that you maintain your rightful position as the authority on those things in their life,

00:35:55.100 as the authority on all things morality and identity and theology.

00:36:00.660 Just remember that public schools are teaching theology, too.

00:36:04.420 They're just not teaching biblical theology because there's no such thing as neutrality.

00:36:08.800 Everyone has a worldview.

00:36:10.060 Everything is taught, typically.

00:36:12.220 I can't say everything, but most things are taught from a particular perspective and a particular worldview.

00:36:18.280 You are not buying into fear mongering by saying, you know what, I just want to make sure that the worldview that from which my kids are being taught eight hours a day for five days a week lines up with my worldview and not a secular progressive worldview.

00:36:34.840 That's not you being scared to me.

00:36:37.640 That is simply you being wise.

00:36:39.740 And like, I'll just remind you that this kind of stuff is happening in conservative districts.

00:36:44.780 Now, I agree with her.

00:36:46.040 You should check to see if these things are happening in your district.

00:36:50.100 I'm not saying that everything that happens in every other district is happening in your school.

00:36:55.180 You need to be really aware of what is going on in your district, whether you have kids in public school or not.

00:37:01.620 But I'll just remind you of a woman named Sherry Clements who came on my show a couple of years ago, and she had gone viral for a speech that she gave. 0.96

00:37:10.300 This is a Christian woman.

00:37:11.640 This is a woman who has the same convictions that you and I do.

00:37:14.980 And she was from Richardson, Texas, which is a pretty conservative area.

00:37:19.220 It's probably very similar to the area in which Jen Wilkin grew up and sent her kids to public school. 0.98

00:37:24.160 And Sherry Clements is a big proponent of public school.

00:37:28.600 She ran for school board. 1.00

00:37:29.760 Unfortunately, she lost.

00:37:31.800 Shouldn't have happened.

00:37:32.600 But she did because actually all of the people, a lot of the people, even like in her church and Christians who say that they're like pro-public school, they didn't even like rally to support her race, unfortunately.

00:37:46.940 And so she should have won that.

00:37:48.320 But she's very pro-public school.

00:37:50.780 This is a largely conservative area.

00:37:52.720 She knows a lot of the teachers.

00:37:54.400 She is very involved in her community.

00:37:56.580 And she was shocked by what her middle schooler was learning and the kinds of books that he was receiving.

00:38:04.780 So this is part of what she said.

00:38:07.120 She gave a speech to the board of trustees of the Richardson Independent School District.

00:38:13.520 And she said this, September 20, 2021, there is sexually explicit content in seven out of the 10 books that were recommended to her explicitly by her child's teacher, one of them having 53 incidences of sex.

00:38:25.880 Example from Burn, Baby Burn.

00:38:27.700 This is a book that her child was given.

00:38:30.040 Angel was my first experience with a guy.

00:38:31.700 A fact that I try to forget daily.

00:38:33.160 One minute we were kissing in Angel's room and a little while later he was driving me home, my shirt buttoned, my shirt buttoned wrong and a wad of toilet paper in my underwear to catch the blood.

00:38:42.640 She said, there's no approved book list and teachers are given full autonomy as to what books they select.

00:38:50.900 How can every teacher be responsible to know the appropriateness of every book?

00:38:54.360 How is it that my daughter, so this is actually her daughter in eighth grade, could be reading books with major profanity and sexual content because it's the goal of RISD to reach all students?

00:39:02.880 I demand better for my children.

00:39:05.900 Now, they did apologize for this, but she had a lot more complaints.

00:39:10.040 She said books that her middle schoolers were reading also provided ways, and these were some of these were required books, required or included ways in which they could commit suicide.

00:39:21.560 Look, there are problems in private schools, Christian education. 1.00

00:39:25.400 That's not something that you are seeing.

00:39:29.020 That kind of thing is not something that you are seeing in Christian education.

00:39:32.880 Sure, you can talk your child through those things if you have the kind of relationship and the kind of time in which you can, and that could be a good opportunity.

00:39:40.840 That's not what I would prefer.

00:39:42.360 I would prefer to be the one to first talk to my child about things like sex and things like identity and things like so-called orientation, things like suicide.

00:39:51.720 Maybe I don't want them to encounter those things under the authority of a teacher whose worldview is completely opposed to mine.

00:39:58.660 Look, that's not fear-mongering.

00:40:00.100 That is showing you, look, this is what is happening in some conservative school districts.

00:40:05.040 Make sure, check to see if it's happening in yours.

00:40:07.840 But this is one example of a conservative school district that is presenting kids with the kind of thing that is so depraved and so disruptive to their healthy development that I think it is simply wise for parents to care.

00:40:21.600 To care and to say, maybe, and this is not going to be the choice for everyone, maybe I don't want my kid to encounter that in that way at all.

00:40:31.020 And I don't have time.

00:40:32.240 Actually, we have so many examples.

00:40:33.760 I wanted to show you examples from conservative school districts of this same kind of thing happening in Montana, in Florida, in Georgia, in different parts of Texas, in Oklahoma, in Alabama.

00:40:46.820 Okay, I know because I hear it so much.

00:40:49.880 Well, this kind of stuff, the racially divisive curriculum in which white kids are told that they're oppressors, black kids are told that they're oppressed, gender ideology, hiding stuff from parents where kids are socially transitioning and parents don't know.

00:41:06.160 Talking about pronouns, that would never happen at my school because I know the teachers, they're Christian teachers, whatever.

00:41:13.380 And then so often I get messages from those very same people who say, I never thought that it would happen here.

00:41:19.580 And it has.

00:41:20.820 And maybe you still feel convicted to stay there.

00:41:24.560 I'm just saying that if you have concerns about those things happening in your district or even the next district over, that is an okay justification for you to say, that's not something that I want to be involved in.

00:41:37.780 Or I want my kid to be involved in.

00:41:39.420 Maybe you're still involved in a lot of different ways because you care about your community and you're already making an investment in these schools through your tax dollars.

00:41:46.060 But it is okay.

00:41:47.080 It's not just fear-mongering for you to say, yeah, our public education system in general doesn't seem to be going the way that I want it to go.

00:41:55.540 And if I'm making disciples of my kids, it's not the strategy that I'm going to take.

00:41:59.260 I just want to make sure you know that that is okay.

00:42:03.900 And I personally think good reasoning to say, yeah, my kids aren't going to be a part of the public education system today.

00:42:12.980 And I don't think that's the only reason.

00:42:14.660 I don't actually think that should be your central motivation.

00:42:17.840 And I'll talk about that in a second.

00:42:19.220 But I do think that's okay if that's part of it.

00:42:21.540 Okay, don't think that you're just being like naive and believing Fox News propaganda because you see these things.

00:42:28.600 I mean, lips of TikTok is not lying when she's posting the evidence of what is happening at public schools.

00:42:35.280 That doesn't mean that that's happening in your district.

00:42:37.280 But it's okay for you to say, hmm, I wonder if that's coming down the pipeline for me.

00:42:42.640 Again, I don't think that that is the primary reason not to public school.

00:42:47.080 I think that there's bigger and a better reason not to send your kids to public school.

00:42:51.260 But I don't want you to be gaslit.

00:42:53.260 I don't want you to feel bad because it sometimes sounds like people think that you're just some kind of paranoid freak for being worried about the things that you're seeing in public schools.

00:43:04.820 I agree that we shouldn't be misinformed or we shouldn't exaggerate things or we shouldn't say something's going on that is not going on.

00:43:11.520 Absolutely agree with that.

00:43:13.460 But your concerns are valid.

00:43:16.220 All right.

00:43:16.500 This next part is the part that I think really kind of, I don't know, worked me up the most that I have probably the biggest response to when she talks about that.

00:43:25.420 But really, families should not make their education decisions based on this is best for my family because the Bible tells us to put others before ourselves.

00:43:35.440 I have a big response, a big response to that.

00:43:37.960 And again, like respect her position, where she's coming from, respect her as a person.

00:43:44.400 Adamantly, adamantly disagree with that.

00:43:46.440 And I will explain why.

00:43:47.740 The moment that we've all been waiting for, the clip that has probably circulated the most, that has made people the most angry.

00:43:53.600 Let me let me play this for you and then I will respond.

00:43:57.340 While I cannot tell you to put your children in public school and certainly never would because there are so many factors that are at play, that it is important for us to understand that our decision regarding this and even our demeanor toward this has an impact on our community.

00:44:15.580 It doesn't just impact our family.

00:44:17.740 The most common phrase I hear thrown out in these conversations is, well, I just need to do what's best for my family.

00:44:24.240 And I think that's something that as Christians, we have to push back on.

00:44:29.440 Philippians tells us each of you should look not just to your own interests, but to the interests of others.

00:44:34.920 OK, so she does say, though, like she says here, I would never tell you to put your kids in public school.

00:44:40.740 But she does in the very beginning to say that Christian parents should try, if at all possible, to go to public school.

00:44:48.840 And she does, you know, acknowledge the acknowledge some caveats there.

00:44:53.080 But she does say try, if at all possible, to go to public school.

00:44:55.980 And then she links that to love of neighbor and the good of your community, which is I will read later.

00:45:00.480 She says that she did not say in her response.

00:45:02.820 But in the first 30 seconds, you can go back and listen.

00:45:04.800 Watch the whole thing for yourself.

00:45:06.160 She does argue that Christian parents who can't send their kids to public school should. 0.99

00:45:09.700 That's her position. 0.62

00:45:10.580 OK, that's her position.

00:45:12.140 But here argues that it is out of selflessness and love that we should do so.

00:45:17.180 And she's referencing Philippians 2, 3 through 4 that says this.

00:45:20.740 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility, count others more significant than yourselves.

00:45:26.540 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

00:45:32.620 So she is arguing that looking out for the interests of others may mean sending your kids to public school

00:45:38.900 because everyone being invested in the public education system is better for the community.

00:45:45.460 But a couple of things here.

00:45:49.400 One, and this is just like a peeve of mine because I've seen this a lot recently.

00:45:55.220 And I just like want to scream out sometimes to Christians, your children are others. 1.00

00:46:00.600 Your family, they are others.

00:46:02.960 They are not you.

00:46:04.220 And I think that Jen agrees with this because she wrote an article about our children being our neighbors several years ago.

00:46:09.600 I think eight years ago.

00:46:10.900 So I'm sure that she aligns with that statement, which is why I found this a little confusing

00:46:14.740 and a little troubling.

00:46:16.500 Listen, again, because I know I got a message from someone telling me that they watched this.

00:46:22.220 And because they, understandably, they admire Jen Wilkins so much,

00:46:26.540 they started feeling guilty about sending their kids to private Christian school or homeschooling their kids.

00:46:31.920 I don't think that was her intention.

00:46:33.260 So I'm not putting that on her.

00:46:34.880 But I just want to speak to that person.

00:46:37.900 Listen, you are putting the interests of your children above yourself

00:46:40.920 when you choose to homeschool or go to Christian school.

00:46:44.340 I'm not saying that parents who choose to go to public school are also not sacrificing

00:46:48.180 something for their kids.

00:46:49.880 But I'm speaking to the person who maybe you started to feel guilty or you're worried about that.

00:46:54.340 You are putting the interests of your kids,

00:46:58.420 the interests of others who are your kids above yourself

00:47:01.120 by sending them to a private Christian school, hybrid option, homeschool, whatever it is,

00:47:05.820 giving them a Christian education.

00:47:06.900 It is in your financial interest, in your time and energy and convenience interest

00:47:13.000 to send your kids to public school.

00:47:15.680 Parents who choose to homeschool or a Christian school,

00:47:19.200 they make so many sacrifices for that.

00:47:23.180 They're not thinking about themselves at all.

00:47:25.180 Gosh, I can think of so many kids that I grew up with,

00:47:28.080 so many families that come to mind right now who have to work so hard

00:47:32.180 to make sure that their kids have a Christian education.

00:47:34.780 They are not rich.

00:47:35.840 Do you know most homeschooling families, they're not rich.

00:47:38.840 They're not privileged.

00:47:39.900 And yet they work hard and they trust God to equip them

00:47:42.900 to give their kids the education they know they need.

00:47:47.100 I just don't want any of you to have heard that

00:47:49.200 and think that you're making a selfish or unloving or unbiblical choice

00:47:52.440 by using what's best for my family as the deciding factor in your child's education.

00:47:57.780 Yes, that is what you should be asking.

00:48:00.480 Really, it's how can I help my kids best love and glorify God?

00:48:03.960 But of course, that is best for your kids.

00:48:07.200 And it is okay and I think right to think that.

00:48:10.600 But these kids that God has specifically given you,

00:48:17.060 you should be asking yourself,

00:48:19.660 how can I best steward their hearts and minds?

00:48:22.440 How can I disciple them the best?

00:48:24.380 How can I give them the best education with the most Christ-centered values possible?

00:48:29.140 How can I show them as often and as best as I can the true and the beautiful,

00:48:35.020 recognizing that when they are in their educating years,

00:48:37.760 they are not spending most of their time with you,

00:48:40.160 but with other people who are also, again, teaching them a worldview.

00:48:43.560 There is nothing your neighbors, your community, your city, your country benefits more from

00:48:50.860 than kind, wise, virtuous, loving children who grow up to be kind, wise, virtuous, brave,

00:48:59.760 loving adults who know their Bibles.

00:49:02.560 That is not to say that that can't happen when a kid graduates from public school.

00:49:08.060 I'm not saying that.

00:49:08.800 I know amazing Christians who graduated from public school.

00:49:11.020 I know apostates and heretics that graduated from Christian school.

00:49:14.660 I see their Facebook posts or their tweets and I'm like, what in the world?

00:49:19.020 But to me, that is not a good argument for public school.

00:49:22.660 I see that a lot.

00:49:23.460 Well, I know bad kids that go to private school.

00:49:25.180 I know great kids that go to public school.

00:49:27.000 Look, I don't think that's a good argument because to me, the ends don't justify the means.

00:49:31.780 The question is not whether, ooh, how do I think that they could end up?

00:49:36.120 Of course, we all hope that our kids end up loving Christ and on fire for him

00:49:39.880 and loving the word and being smart and educated, all those things.

00:49:43.440 But the question I have right now is whether I want my kids to hear the Bible taught every day

00:49:49.540 for 13 plus years at school or not.

00:49:53.120 That's it.

00:49:54.420 I personally do.

00:49:56.140 My husband and I personally do.

00:49:57.520 If that is an option for people where you live and in your circumstance, I think that is the best option.

00:50:05.380 I just don't buy the idea that I have to sacrifice my kids for the sake of some vague idea of the common good.

00:50:14.740 Because I actually believe that I am contributing to actual common good by being lights in the darkness,

00:50:20.320 by ensuring that my kid is discipled and equipped the best possible for as much time as possible before they're released into the world.

00:50:27.880 Now, I am sure that Jen Wilkin didn't see it as sacrificing her kids at all. 1.00

00:50:32.360 But from my vantage point, I do.

00:50:34.600 And this is an increasingly popular argument in general that we're seeing.

00:50:39.480 Oh, to be selfless and to put others above yourself means disadvantaging kind of in a lot of ways your family.

00:50:46.580 Not from her necessarily, but you see it a lot when it comes to like the vaccine.

00:50:50.740 Get the vaccine to love your neighbor.

00:50:51.980 Wear a mask to love your neighbor.

00:50:53.020 Give up your guns to love your neighbor.

00:50:55.400 I've never thought that those were good arguments.

00:50:57.860 I never thought that there was any credence to the idea that we should do something that could be very bad for our children, for our family.

00:51:08.840 And by the way, isn't actually backed by the science in order to say that we are loving our neighbor.

00:51:17.320 I just didn't see biblical support for that.

00:51:20.360 And the same way that I don't think a law-abiding person giving up their guns is in any way tangibly loving your neighbor.

00:51:28.160 Like there's no correlation.

00:51:29.840 There's no correlation between that.

00:51:32.960 And I just see the spirit of that argument here that, well, I'm not going to give my kids a Christian education because some other people don't have a Christian education.

00:51:43.260 And I think that my kids not having a Christian education, like the other kids who don't have a Christian education, is somehow going to help everyone be better.

00:51:53.360 Like I just don't see a whole lot of credence to that argument.

00:51:58.540 Now, I also, she says that she's coming from personal experience, and she'll talk a little bit more about that, and I'll mention it in a second.

00:52:05.460 But I am also coming from personal experience because I know what a Christian education did for me.

00:52:10.600 I went to a private Christian school, kindergarten through 12th grade.

00:52:14.400 It wasn't perfect.

00:52:15.820 I don't think any education option is perfect, by the way.

00:52:18.920 There were years that I hated it.

00:52:20.320 I didn't like this school.

00:52:21.400 I didn't like the setup, whatever.

00:52:23.300 Honestly, I didn't really fit the mold completely.

00:52:25.580 I made decent grades.

00:52:26.680 I always excelled at certain subjects.

00:52:28.520 You can probably guess which ones.

00:52:30.420 Did mediocre in others, like science.

00:52:32.640 Did great in English.

00:52:34.880 But the problem was I could never keep my mouth shut kindergarten through 12th grade.

00:52:38.320 That was my problem.

00:52:39.060 Always talking in class.

00:52:40.260 I know it's shocking that I have a career talking for long periods of time.

00:52:45.400 I was always late to class because I was talking in between class.

00:52:47.940 I was bored in class.

00:52:49.300 I was distracted in class.

00:52:50.800 I had some teachers who helped me find my strengths along the way.

00:52:54.280 But I had a lot of teachers, especially elementary school, middle school, who simply punished me and would say things like,

00:53:01.260 You're so smart.

00:53:02.520 Why don't you apply yourself more?

00:53:03.960 And, you know, I didn't excel every year.

00:53:08.960 I'm not sure that I would send my kids there if that were an option today.

00:53:15.220 There just, in my opinion, wasn't enough latitude for kids who learned even slightly differently.

00:53:20.620 And there was, as there is, I think, at all schools, public or private, politics, cliques, things like that.

00:53:26.780 However, even with my not perfect experience at a Christian private school, we will still, with every fiber of our being, be pursuing Christian education for our kids.

00:53:41.460 Because even with its imperfections, what I got, as far as a theological foundation, is absolutely irreplaceable.

00:53:51.100 And this is so important.

00:53:52.560 Again, probably not a perfect theological foundation.

00:53:56.260 But you guys ask me all the time.

00:53:58.580 Hey, how do you know so many Bible verses?

00:54:02.000 How does it seem like you're able to recall scripture from memory and then incorporate that into what you're talking about?

00:54:07.020 I hope you don't hear this, by the way, as any kind of, like, arrogance or braggadociousness, because that's not what this is at all.

00:54:13.500 It has very little to do with me and a lot to do with hearing the Bible read and talked about every single day of my life,

00:54:23.560 at home and at church and at school from the time I was five until I was 18.

00:54:29.420 You just can't argue with what a difference that makes in a person's worldview and their theological foundation.

00:54:35.060 It just does.

00:54:36.880 Now that, and we had a stellar English department that could probably rival most college English departments today.

00:54:42.380 It was a great combination for me as far as laying a foundation for understanding the world from a biblical worldview.

00:54:52.140 Two, my fourth grade teacher, my junior year Bible teacher, my senior year English teacher,

00:54:56.760 they didn't just show me Christ, as you often hear in public schools, by being kind of like covert Christians, 0.68

00:55:02.260 but by showing us how the gospel is interwoven in everything in our world, in literature, in history, in science.

00:55:09.900 That's what I got from a Christian education for 13 years of my life.

00:55:14.520 This is My Father's World is my favorite hymn for many reasons, especially nowadays.

00:55:19.220 But one of them is because my education was characterized by that belief.

00:55:24.180 This, all of it, is God's world.

00:55:26.020 Every number, every discovery, every letter, every idea, it is all His.

00:55:32.340 My parents didn't have to squeeze that idea in when they got a spare moment with us before going to bed at night.

00:55:37.900 They knew it was reiterated every day.

00:55:40.640 Sure, parents can make sure their kids are reading their Bible and reading Christian books at home,

00:55:46.140 that they're part of youth group.

00:55:47.360 Of course, at-home discipleship, I agree with Jen Wilkin, is the most important thing.

00:55:51.980 But what about knowing that they're discussing and debating the Bible and apologetics and theology with their peers every day?

00:55:59.400 I got in my first predestination debate in sixth grade.

00:56:01.980 That education, it was invaluable to me.

00:56:06.900 And my husband and I will literally do anything, will do anything to give our kids the gift that our parents gave us.

00:56:17.900 My parents gave me so much growing up, but that, a 13-year Bible-centered education, might be, it might be the best one.

00:56:26.580 It's the one that I use the most.

00:56:28.700 I use it every day.

00:56:29.840 I wouldn't be able to do this job without it.

00:56:32.340 There is no way.

00:56:33.800 So for us, it's simple.

00:56:35.460 When we look at the options between, well, I can send my kids that God has so graciously given me as gifts to steward and to care for and disciple and to raise up in what is good and right and true.

00:56:46.140 I can send them 40 hours a week to a place that, at best, teaches them no worldview at all, which I don't really think is possible, but tries really hard to be neutral.

00:56:55.540 And at worst, teaches one that is directly opposed to a biblical worldview.

00:57:01.100 Or I can send them somewhere or teach them at home in a way that is continuing the work that my husband and I are doing as parents.

00:57:10.320 If those are our two options, then we're going to pick the last one.

00:57:14.440 We're going to choose the latter.

00:57:15.480 And I don't know yet exactly what that will look like.

00:57:19.520 If I need to quit this podcast, a full-time homeschool, I will do it.

00:57:23.540 That will be hard.

00:57:24.560 I promise you that I will be putting the interests of other people above myself if we radically shift our lives to do that.

00:57:31.740 But we will also be doing that if we choose some kind of private school option.

00:57:36.700 We will simply do what it takes to give our kids a Christian education because, gosh, I can't even describe how thankful I am to have that foundation that will be paying off for the rest of my life.

00:57:52.400 And I also want to note something that she says in this, that you can involve yourself or something that she says.

00:58:01.280 I can't remember if she said it in this clip or she said it after.

00:58:03.600 She talks about involving yourself if you don't have kids there, that you still need to be making that investment.

00:58:10.060 I totally agree with that.

00:58:12.000 Like when we can, different stages of life are different.

00:58:14.260 So maybe you don't have time right now to go to all the school board meetings, but paying attention to what's being taught.

00:58:18.780 I agree with that.

00:58:19.700 We're taxpayers.

00:58:20.600 We're part of the community.

00:58:21.360 We have a vested interest in what our kids, like future peers and colleagues are learning.

00:58:27.120 But if we can involve ourselves as adults in our public school system by knowing what's going on, volunteering, why do my kids need to go there?

00:58:37.860 Like if they're not the missionaries, which she acknowledges, and we are, then why should I deprive my kids of a Christian education in order to have an impact?

00:58:45.120 I mean, she acknowledges that there are other ways to get involved.

00:58:47.680 So why do my kids need to go to public school in order to make a difference?

00:58:50.740 Why can't I give my kids a Christian education and still be involved in other ways?

00:58:56.700 Like doesn't that count as loving your neighbor?

00:58:59.180 So I'm a little confused then.

00:59:00.560 Like what is the argument for not giving my kids a Christian education and sending them to public school?

00:59:05.540 So to me, there is a little inconsistency there.

00:59:07.680 All right, let's bring in some arguments or I'm not even going to play it because we just don't have time.

00:59:12.880 We're already over an hour.

00:59:14.040 I knew this was going to be long.

00:59:15.320 I knew it was going to be long.

00:59:16.420 I knew it was going to be a mega episode because I have a lot to say.

00:59:19.040 That's what happens when you have such a long preamble, but also when you have to respond to a lot of these clips.

00:59:23.680 So Dr. Pennington, as I said, six kids.

00:59:28.160 He sent his kids to private school, but he also homeschooled them, I think it sounds like, when he was younger.

00:59:35.320 And even though like I just felt like he caveated too much of what he said and just wasn't strong enough,

00:59:43.480 it seemed to me like they were afraid of hurting her feelings or of like dogpiling on her because both the host and Dr. Pennington said their kids like gave their kids a Christian education.

00:59:54.160 So it just seemed like in a lot of ways they were kind of tiptoeing.

00:59:56.880 But he did make some good points, undoubtedly.

01:00:00.260 And I think the best point that he made was the first point that he made when he asked the simple question, but what is an education?

01:00:06.440 Like why do we educate our children?

01:00:08.980 He talks about the Greek word paideia and how this kind of education is taking people from childishness to maturity to help them love what is true, good, and beautiful.

01:00:29.060 That's what education should be.

01:00:30.880 And we should just honestly ask ourselves, like, do you think public schools, even the best public schools are doing that?

01:00:35.900 Most public schools can't, by law, even openly define what is objectively good, true, and beautiful.

01:00:42.260 So I just think, I think that's a really good question.

01:00:44.620 Like, I love defining our terms.

01:00:46.460 What is education?

01:00:48.520 And he argues or he talks about that this idea of education is actually what Christians spearheaded and used to shape Western civilization.

01:00:58.000 When they pioneered education and academia to be this, education hasn't always been this kind of secular, progressive endeavor like it is today.

01:01:09.000 I mean, it's always been an endeavor in conformity.

01:01:11.720 If you go back to the beginning of really the public school system, I'm not just talking about like schoolhouses and homeschooling, which is really kind of what it used to be.

01:01:20.040 But the public education system in the United States has always been about conformity.

01:01:23.760 It's always been about implementing a particular worldview and posing it onto the children to make them behave a certain way and think a certain way for the good of society.

01:01:33.580 And now it's not the worldview that it was then, which was a form of a Protestant worldview, trying to make, you know, the Catholics more Protestant, trying to make the immigrants more American.

01:01:45.960 But the worldview today is a secular, progressive worldview.

01:01:49.280 Again, there is no such thing as neutrality.

01:01:51.440 Our public school system is not neutral.

01:01:53.340 I think you have lots of wonderful teachers out there who are doing their very best to teach well and to not implement some kind of secular, progressive worldview.

01:02:02.380 But you can't deny that that is the worldview of the teachers unions and the education department and most of the bureaucracy, the administrative bloat that kind of guides our education system.

01:02:13.740 There are certainly outliers of schools that may not be teaching the full scope of secular progressivism, but that is the dominant worldview.

01:02:21.740 I think we can probably agree on that, right?

01:02:24.000 If you have come to the realization that really there is no such thing as a worldview neutrality here.

01:02:31.400 And so I think he's just making the argument, look, Christians used to understand really what education was.

01:02:37.040 They were not thinking about giving their kids over to a discipleship program, which is also what education is, that is actively opposing their values.

01:02:46.720 I mean, he doesn't say this, but I'm like, but I'm thinking, again, not trying to be offensive.

01:02:50.900 I'm like, why would you do that if you have the option?

01:02:53.140 Like, you worked so hard for the first six years of their life to disciple them.

01:02:57.040 Now you are giving them to a different discipleship program that is saying, oh, what's your parents say?

01:03:02.200 Either we're just not going to talk about it at all, or we're going to talk about something that directly opposes them.

01:03:06.240 Hope you can make it, six-year-old.

01:03:08.140 And I think this is a lot worse today than it was 15 to 20 years ago.

01:03:11.620 I mean, would you allow your kid to go to a church that you knew was preaching a false gospel every week for two hours?

01:03:21.580 Like, if you knew that, like, there was some youth group or something that every Sunday was teaching kids about, like, pronouns and changing your gender, like, would you send your kids to that?

01:03:37.120 And yet a lot of parents send their kids to a school 40 hours a week that is at least some of that time teaching those things.

01:03:44.820 And they're surrounded by peers who support it.

01:03:47.020 And so, I know, a lot of you aren't going to like what I just said, but that is, like, how I'm kind of thinking through some of this.

01:03:55.020 He also brings up Deuteronomy 6.

01:03:57.900 And he's referring to Deuteronomy 6, 5 through 6.

01:04:01.840 And he's talking about, like, what education has been for God's people since the beginning.

01:04:05.800 God says you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

01:04:11.020 And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart.

01:04:13.400 And you shall teach them diligently to your children and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way, when you lie down and when you rise.

01:04:20.560 Jen Wilkin, you know, would probably say, well, this starts in the home, which I absolutely agree with.

01:04:25.140 I absolutely agree that it starts with the home and that it ultimately ends with the home.

01:04:29.880 But you can see the spirit of these words here.

01:04:31.900 It's not just, okay, the maybe two hours of time that you have with them in between homework and extracurriculars and dinner and all of that stuff that you get to spend time with your kids and talk to them about the Bible.

01:04:45.600 It's not just weekends.

01:04:46.600 Like, you can see that the spirit of this verse is that it's constant.

01:04:50.000 It's constant.

01:04:50.960 It's as constant as possible that they are being discipled in these things.

01:04:54.840 The host mentions there's 15,000 hours of education in an adolescent's life.

01:05:01.100 That's a lot of time.

01:05:02.480 That's a lot of time to be inundated with an opposing worldview or a worldview that aligns with your own.

01:05:09.420 One thing that she said that I really liked is that she limited extracurriculars that her family did and that that kind of made them countercultural.

01:05:16.720 Totally agree.

01:05:17.400 I think that's an awesome idea.

01:05:18.560 She talks about, like, a lot of students have alternate identities, like, in their athletics or whatever it is, and then you never have time together.

01:05:27.180 I think that's true of a lot of students who probably go to Christian private schools, too.

01:05:31.620 Maybe even more so because they feel like their athletic department isn't strong enough, and so they have to do all these club sports.

01:05:36.780 I'm not saying all of that is bad.

01:05:38.160 But I think that she makes a good point that, you know, she made sure, she and her husband made sure that their kids did not have an identity in those extracurriculars, that they spent a lot of shared time together.

01:05:48.560 I think that's really important.

01:05:49.700 I took something away from that because I'm already starting to feel the pressure of, like, oh, my gosh, what do I need to get my kids all involved in?

01:05:56.360 How do I make sure that they're doing all of these things to ensure that I'm, you know, building up their strengths and they know who they are?

01:06:02.780 And so I love that she created, like, peace and community in her home in that way.

01:06:09.340 The host talks about the concern of diversity.

01:06:12.400 How do you make sure in a private school that they're exposed to different kinds of people?

01:06:17.680 Here's also the thing with this is that I think is interesting is that public school proponents will say we lived by excellent schools.

01:06:26.880 And typically they will.

01:06:28.500 Most people who are attending public schools who have the ability to do this are moving to districts that have that have good academics that are excellent schools.

01:06:40.280 Typically, you can hate on me for this, but this is typically true. 0.99

01:06:44.260 They are typically less diverse, depending on how you define diversity, than the schools that are not doing very well.

01:06:51.720 And yet you don't see a lot of these, like, Christian public school proponents say, yeah, you know, I'm going to send my kids to the inner city Chicago schools to love our neighbor.

01:07:01.180 Like, yeah, or, you know, in Jen Wilkins' case, I'm going to send my kids to the South Dallas schools to, like, to love our community very often.

01:07:09.500 Like, yes, they talk about diversity, diversity of viewpoints, but they understandably do what a lot of parents do that are sending their kids to a different kind of education.

01:07:18.600 And that is choose the schools that are best and choose the schools that offer the best opportunities.

01:07:27.120 And so I don't know that it's really sincere for, I'm not even saying Jen Wilkins, for anyone to say, oh, yeah, we're choosing public school for the sake of diversity.

01:07:36.620 Are you going to the most diverse school in your area?

01:07:39.380 Are you choosing to do that?

01:07:40.580 Or are you choosing the best school in your area, the school with, like, the wealthiest people, the school that has the most conservative values?

01:07:48.420 Because if so, then you're simply doing, like, the same thing that parents are doing who give their kids a Christian education, except you're not taking that other step.

01:07:57.220 Like, you are looking for, like, the best environment for your children, right?

01:08:05.080 I mean, there's a reason why you're probably not sending your kids to the inner city schools and you're sending your kids to the safer community.

01:08:11.640 Like, you are thinking about the well-being of your kids before you're thinking about, okay, well, would it help if I went to these inner city schools?

01:08:19.680 So I think we just need to be honest with this.

01:08:21.680 And, by the way, I'm not as concerned about the diversity aspect in education as I am with the exposure of wrong ideas at public school.

01:08:34.980 Like, life is diverse.

01:08:37.920 And, like, she talked about the importance of talking about things at home.

01:08:40.820 I think that there are plenty of lessons that we can learn in everyday life.

01:08:46.080 And, again, I don't think that's a worthy sacrifice for my kids to make just because they may get a little bit more exposure to different people of different backgrounds at public school.

01:08:55.180 To me, that's not worth not giving them a Christian education for.

01:09:01.120 Okay, here's an interesting point that Jen Wilkin makes about she doesn't want Christians to necessarily take over public schools. 1.00

01:09:08.480 I'll hear a lot from parents who will say, well, it's a public school, but all the teachers are Christians.

01:09:14.340 And I'm like, well, I want my children to be exposed to all different kinds of teachers, and then I can parent them through whatever those are.

01:09:23.320 So I don't want to covertly take over the public schools and make them Christian schools, although I value, you know, the ethics that that would involve being in place in the public schools.

01:09:34.800 But I think that because they're public schools, they need to serve a general population in a way that a Christian school doesn't. 1.00

01:09:43.120 So I think this is interesting because, again, this goes back to the lack of neutrality argument.

01:09:53.900 So what worldview is a better one to teach kids of all kinds?

01:10:02.160 Like, what's the better set of values?

01:10:05.700 What's the better set of morals than the ones that Christianity offers that would do a better job of accommodating people of all different kinds of beliefs?

01:10:18.340 Oh, my goodness.

01:10:19.180 Of course, I want my kids' teachers to be Christians.

01:10:21.940 I mean, we can talk about different religions.

01:10:24.840 We can meet people of different religions.

01:10:26.340 We can talk about that kindness and respect, all of that.

01:10:29.240 I think that's important.

01:10:30.560 But again, education is discipleship.

01:10:32.920 Why would I want someone who does not believe Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life to disciple my child?

01:10:39.120 And again, there's always a worldview in education.

01:10:41.840 Why would I want to not just introduce them to, but inundate them with a worldview that is directly opposed to the one that I've worked very hard to ensure that they're implemented?

01:10:55.100 That doesn't mean lack of exposure.

01:10:56.580 That doesn't mean putting them in a bubble altogether so they don't ever know that anyone else exists.

01:11:04.300 But again, I would ask, like, what set of values is a better one to teach pupils with, to teach the larger community with than the Christian one?

01:11:12.240 Is it the Hindu one? 1.00

01:11:13.800 Is it the Muslim one? 1.00

01:11:15.280 Is it the secular progressive one?

01:11:16.900 Is it the atheist one?

01:11:18.500 Is it some mysterious neutral worldview that is somehow out there?

01:11:22.880 Like, is there some alternative between God's truth and a lie?

01:11:26.940 I've never seen it.

01:11:30.040 They talk about the financial aspect, too.

01:11:32.820 Many people just can't do it.

01:11:35.080 But I would just say, look, we spent a lot of money on a lot of things.

01:11:38.860 People go into debt for a mortgage.

01:11:40.260 I'm not saying that I'm not recommending debt.

01:11:43.560 I'm just saying we spent a lot of money on a lot of things.

01:11:46.940 And also, homeschool parents are not rich.

01:11:50.740 I think there are a lot of people who probably could homeschool.

01:11:53.880 They say that they couldn't, but really, they just don't want to.

01:11:56.200 And OK, that's that's fine.

01:11:57.640 You don't want to.

01:11:58.740 But most homeschool families that I know are not wealthy.

01:12:03.000 Dr. Pennington talks about what about single moms who can't spend time discipling kids or for 0.70

01:12:09.820 different reasons.

01:12:10.360 People can't spend time discipling her kids. 0.99

01:12:12.880 Jen, she pivots to expense. 1.00

01:12:15.680 But I think he makes a good point that parents who don't have time to disciple their kids and

01:12:20.060 they're sending their kids to public school, when are they supposed to get that like at

01:12:23.320 home involvement and discipleship that she says is necessary if you send your kids to

01:12:27.220 public school?

01:12:28.040 Now, I will say that I think it's more important to have parents involved than to send your kids

01:12:34.620 to a Christian school.

01:12:35.360 I do.

01:12:36.340 And that's I mean, obviously, I think that's a false choice.

01:12:39.280 I think that you should have involved parents discipling your kids and that they should be

01:12:43.100 discipled through Christian education.

01:12:44.800 But if there were a choice out there between parents who are absent because they have to

01:12:48.860 work so much and they're sending their kids to private school and they never have any time

01:12:52.980 with them versus parents who are present and are discipling their kids and sending them

01:12:56.380 to get kids to public school.

01:12:57.760 Yeah, I would choose the last one.

01:12:59.180 I don't I think that is very rarely like a true binary, but I think parental presence

01:13:04.520 and involvement is so important that I would choose that.

01:13:09.460 All right.

01:13:10.740 Let's talk about I think this is yeah, this is the this is the this is the last clip.

01:13:17.340 My exposure to the Christian schools that I know of is not overly positive.

01:13:22.580 I think when you're charging a premium to educate children, you have a vested interest in trumpeting

01:13:27.100 the the value of what you're doing in a way that doesn't always translate into outcomes.

01:13:33.500 I'm not saying that's the way every Christian school is.

01:13:35.420 My daughter actually had an overwhelmingly positive experience in a Christian school

01:13:41.180 that was that didn't didn't come out of desegregation.

01:13:46.700 You know, it was just a really sweet place to teach.

01:13:50.740 And it was good for me to see that positive expression of Christian education because my mother

01:13:55.900 had taught in Christian schools and had a negative experience, I had some baggage.

01:13:59.740 So I do know it can be a great environment for kids, but it's never going to be a widespread

01:14:05.980 solution for people just due to the necessary expense that that it requires.

01:14:13.000 Yeah, and she's absolutely right about the expense.

01:14:15.680 And I don't want to minimize that at all.

01:14:17.760 To send your kids to a Christian private school can be over the course of their lives,

01:14:22.500 hundreds of thousands of dollars that a lot of people don't have.

01:14:25.700 And look, I do wish also that it was more affordable.

01:14:29.220 I like what can we do to make it a more widespread option?

01:14:32.180 I've actually seen churches get really creative in this and they have created charter schools.

01:14:38.580 And so they are free of charge.

01:14:40.820 And they're not necessarily they're not necessarily teaching outright theology, but they are following

01:14:47.860 a classical model and they're not following a lot of the secular progressivism that you're

01:14:52.180 seeing in public schools.

01:14:54.420 So she said it's not a widespread option.

01:14:56.740 Let's not leave it there.

01:14:57.940 Like Christians have been in the business of building institutions, changing culture and 1.00

01:15:05.220 building refuges for the most vulnerable since the beginning.

01:15:09.700 Like what can we do to make education better that doesn't involve like sacrificing our kids

01:15:17.780 and robbing them of a 13 year discipleship opportunity by giving them a Christian education?

01:15:24.740 I see Christians doing this a lot and I think that's amazing.

01:15:28.740 And I'm thinking like, how can I, how can I get involved in something like that?

01:15:32.500 Because I do want that to be a widespread solution for more people.

01:15:36.500 And you did hear her say segregation.

01:15:39.380 She actually mentions this earlier, too, or she implies it.

01:15:43.060 She said, you know, we can look back in history and see what happens when Christians pull their 1.00

01:15:47.140 kids out of school and the people that's left left behind.

01:15:50.420 And what she's talking about is segregation that some Christian schools were created because

01:15:55.780 white parents didn't want their kids going to school with with black kids after integration 0.98

01:16:03.780 happened.

01:16:04.500 Look, I don't know if she's trying to use it in this way, but I don't think that that is

01:16:08.420 a good argument at all against Christian education.

01:16:11.140 We can talk about the origins of a lot of things.

01:16:13.300 Again, we can talk about the origins of public education in this country.

01:16:16.340 We've got a lot of problematic things there when we are looking at the history of public

01:16:20.820 education in this country.

01:16:22.260 And so, again, the question isn't whether isn't about like why private education started

01:16:28.020 or why private school started.

01:16:30.340 My question is, like, what is it today?

01:16:33.620 And again, what gives my kid the best discipleship opportunity?

01:16:38.020 What pushes them more towards what is good, true and beautiful and gospel centered in what

01:16:43.220 pulls them further away from it?

01:16:44.580 Like those those are my those are my questions.

01:16:47.780 Um, and there are a lot of other things that that are talked about.

01:16:53.300 Dr. Pennington says that each child's unique capabilities and development were really worked

01:16:59.780 on when they were children because of the focus that they had and because of just the knowledge

01:17:04.020 and the intimate, you know, the intimate knowledge they had of their child and their strengths and

01:17:09.380 their weaknesses. And he does talk about he makes a really good point that you help the

01:17:14.020 community and bless the world by developing your child well. And I think that's absolutely,

01:17:19.460 absolutely true. Now, Jen Wilkins, she had a response to the criticism, and I will read that

01:17:25.220 and then I'll just talk about just a couple other things in my closing argument that other much wiser

01:17:29.780 and older Christians have said about education just kind of as a period exclamation mark

01:17:36.180 on this whole conversation. Jen Wilkins response to the criticism.

01:17:41.780 Um, and actually, let's see. It was on Instagram, too. Let's see. Um, I have it. I want to read the

01:17:49.060 caption, too. I have it pulled up on this document, which is the Twitter version. But I want to

01:17:56.020 I want to read her caption, too, because I think that's important. All right. So she says this

01:18:07.060 thread. Uh, it seems my recent remarks on public school are being misrepresented. So I'd like to

01:18:12.980 clarify. I get it. It was an hour long debate in an age of short attention spans clips and tweets

01:18:16.900 can too easily obscure the flow of a longer argument. So a lot of people take issue with that first tweet

01:18:22.020 that they read is kind of condescending that and I don't know if she meant it like this, but a lot of

01:18:26.180 you have told me and I saw this on Twitter people saying that she seems to assume that the only reason

01:18:31.620 people might really disagree with her argument is because they didn't watch the full thing and they

01:18:35.860 just saw some decontextualized tweet or clip or something and they responded to it and they

01:18:42.260 misrepresented it. But all of you who have talked to me about it, you watch the full thing and then you

01:18:46.900 gave me your response or your thoughts for better and for worse. She said, I did not say Christians 0.86

01:18:51.700 should send their kids to public school to love their neighbor. Well, in the first and the first

01:18:59.460 answer that she gave, she does say that her choice to send her kids to public school is linked to love

01:19:07.620 of neighbor. She does say in her first response that she believes parents who can should send their kids

01:19:16.100 to public school for the better of the community, the betterment of the community, she said. And we

01:19:20.180 believe that our participation in the public school system was directly related to loving our neighbors.

01:19:25.380 And so if we could opt in, we absolutely wanted to. And so I don't know what to say. That is something

01:19:32.740 that she said. I don't think that she said that you can't love your neighbor if you don't go to public

01:19:36.420 school, but she does link it to love of neighbor. She said, I did not say Christians should send their kids

01:19:40.420 to public school to love their neighbor. This is a mischaracterization of my point.

01:19:45.460 I did say what's best for my family is only one lens for families who have a choice in education.

01:19:50.420 She did link it to love of neighbor. Again, I don't know. I just quoted exactly what she said.

01:19:55.620 You can go back and listen for yourself. And yes, she does say what's best for my family is only

01:20:01.700 one lens for families who have a choice in education. She actually said that we should push back on that

01:20:05.940 because Philippians 2.4 says that we should think of the interest of others before ourselves. And she

01:20:10.660 includes like her, her family in that we should look to the interest of others before you just look for

01:20:15.380 the interest of your families. She said, I suggested considering an additional lens the

01:20:19.940 impact withdrawing from public schools has on our communities, particularly on families

01:20:23.140 without a choice in education. I did not say the love of neighbor means we must choose

01:20:28.660 public school. Okay, you can go back and you can listen to her first answer and you can see if you

01:20:33.140 deduce that. She might not have said that verbatim, but it's not really difficult to see why people

01:20:38.020 picked up on that. Like I've said things that I don't mean to say. I've said things that were taken the wrong

01:20:42.660 way. Like personally, I think the best thing is to say, I could see how people thought that because

01:20:47.380 that's what I said. But that's not what I meant. And here's why. She said, I did say that it's good

01:20:53.380 for the community for those who opt out of public school to find ways to support them through mentoring

01:20:59.220 programs, supply drive service products, the board meetings, etc. Yes, I agree. She did say that.

01:21:04.020 I did say not all public school districts are equal by any means. And to learn firsthand what yours is

01:21:07.940 is actually teaching versus listening to hearsay. I did not say our kids should be missionaries.

01:21:11.060 I explicitly said the opposite twice. That is true. I did see some people say that,

01:21:14.820 oh, I don't want my kids to be salt and light. Jen Wilkin, she said explicitly that your kids

01:21:19.380 shouldn't be. Now, I still see some inconsistency with that because she says your kids shouldn't be

01:21:23.860 missionaries, that it's up to the parents to be salt and light. But then she says you can be

01:21:28.180 salt and light without sending your kids to public school. And so I, again, don't know the purpose of

01:21:33.140 sending my kids to public school then. She said, I do recognize our children, our first,

01:21:37.860 our neighbors. I've written an article by that title. Yes, she has. It is possible to recognize

01:21:41.060 this and also recognize our neighbor next door. Yes, I absolutely do. But as many people have pointed

01:21:47.140 out, there is an order of our loves. And I know that she knows this. There is, I'm looking it up

01:21:56.900 right now. Okay. First Timothy 5a. But if anyone does not provide for his relatives,

01:22:01.700 and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an 0.97

01:22:07.060 unbeliever. Now, I'm not saying that this is true of people who send their kids to public schools.

01:22:11.380 That's not the characterization I'm making, but there is an order of loves. So I don't care about

01:22:16.020 my neighbor's kids as much as I care about my kids. Like people try to make this argument with

01:22:20.720 immigration too, that we should, that putting our country first and our interest in security first

01:22:24.660 is somehow bigoted. It's somehow wrong. It's somehow unchristian. No, God has,

01:22:28.640 God is a God of order. And he has made us to order our loves and societies, families. We are all in

01:22:35.600 kind of these concentric circles. And there is only so much that we can care about. We have to

01:22:40.620 prioritize our loves or else that's not order that's actually chaos. Yes, I can love my neighbor's

01:22:45.440 kids, but I am not going to deprive my kids of a meal to feed my neighbor's kids. I'm going to do

01:22:53.600 everything possible. I can to do both. But yes, I love my children more than I love your children.

01:22:59.560 You love your children more than I love my children. God did not give me your children to

01:23:03.540 steward and to care for and vice versa. And so I am going to first look to the interest and security

01:23:10.380 and well-being of my children, not to ignore the well-being of everyone else. I absolutely agree with

01:23:16.520 that, but we have to so order our loves in a way that reflects how God created us. And I think what he

01:23:21.440 also says in scripture. And to me, that means, yes, when I'm looking at education and I'm looking

01:23:27.200 at lifelong discipleship for my kids, I am going to first look at, okay, how do I best disciple and

01:23:32.600 shape their minds? How can education be a part of that? She says, I do not think every family with

01:23:39.760 a choice in education has to arrive at the same education choice. I explicitly said this more than

01:23:43.780 once. To some, my call to those with a choice in education is do your homework on your own district.

01:23:47.480 Stay if you can, but if you can't, be an active source of blessing to teachers,

01:23:51.060 administrators, and students who are in your local schools. And I disagree with the stay if

01:23:56.260 you can part. She says, and resist the urge to vilify your neighbor who sees things differently

01:24:00.600 than you. That's it. And if you read opinions or interpretations that my thoughts are more than this

01:24:05.100 or different than this, don't buy it. The entire debate is there for watching. You don't have to rely

01:24:08.440 on or amplify someone else's potentially bad faith interpretation of a good faith debate. And

01:24:13.840 disagreement doesn't have to mean denigration. Let's do better. So let's do better, do better.

01:24:20.480 Sure. Um, I, I'm sure that there were people who were denigrating her and I think that that is

01:24:26.000 wrong. I'm sure that there were people who personally attacked maybe and said some things

01:24:30.020 about her that were not true. I didn't see that as much. I saw a lot of people adamantly disagreeing

01:24:34.840 with her. Yes. They shared some clips. Um, most of the clips that I saw were actually in context

01:24:39.480 and the context of what she said didn't change what she said. Um, again, go listen to the hour long

01:24:44.940 debate. I put it on, I sped it up a little bit so I could listen to the whole thing. Did that twice,

01:24:50.560 went back, looked at all the clips before commenting. Um, I had watched it all the way

01:24:55.620 through and looked at the clips to verify what she had said. Some of this response and what she says

01:25:01.300 simply is not, it's not true. So like I would, I would just not even not don't rely on me completely.

01:25:06.940 Don't rely on her response either to look at what she said and also don't take public

01:25:13.140 disagreement as denigration. Again, we can publicly disagree with public ideas. That is

01:25:18.080 totally okay. And I think actually very edifying. All right. I just want to read you some quotes by

01:25:24.000 someone who is much, much more skilled to talk about this than I am. I wish that the debate had

01:25:28.540 been between him and Jen Welkin or anyone. Votie Bauckham is really strong against public schools 1.00

01:25:35.540 and I've had him on my show twice. And we talk about on, uh, the last time I had him on like

01:25:40.920 the whole public school missionary thing and how a lot of people seem to think that that is a

01:25:45.060 justification for sending your kids to public schools. So he wrote this article that I think

01:25:50.000 makes some really good points at the exodus mandate.org. And he talks about some reasons to

01:25:55.740 leave public education, top five reasons not to send your kids back to public school. This is his

01:26:01.680 stance. And he says things like, I would say a lot more strongly on this than I do. And he has

01:26:07.380 homeschooled his kids. I believe he has eight children from grown to still school age. Uh, he

01:26:12.740 says one, the Bible commands Christ-centered education. He says, uh, we should be training

01:26:18.260 ourselves and our children intellectually, spiritually, philosophically, and morally. We have numerous

01:26:22.000 warnings against allowing others to influence us intellectually, spiritually, philosophically, and morally.

01:26:25.860 Psalm 1, Romans 12, 1 and 2, 2 Corinthians 6, 14. Talks about Deuteronomy 6, 6, and 7. Proverbs 1, 7. Ephesians

01:26:34.900 6, 4. We can link this article, by the way. You can read it for yourself. He says, government education is

01:26:39.460 anti-Christian. Our education is either based on biblical truth or some other alleged truth. There's no such

01:26:44.420 thing as neutrality in this regard. All education is religious in nature, which I think is really important 0.94

01:26:48.820 for us to know. Since it is illegal for students in our government schools to be taught from a Christian 1.00

01:26:52.580 perspective, then it follows that they must be taught from a non-Christian perspective.

01:26:57.220 Um, he says, America's schools are morally repugnant. Homeowners are forced under threat

01:27:01.160 of the loss of their property to pay for the education of others' children. How is that appropriate?

01:27:07.700 He says, number four, America's schools are among the worst in the industrialized world. America's

01:27:12.900 students continually rank at the bottom in math, science, and reading compared to other industrialized 0.94

01:27:17.420 nations. That's right. Our educational system is among the world's worst. We are the richest country

01:27:22.500 in the world. Our education system is among the world's worst. That's something that Jen Wilkins 0.99

01:27:26.040 talks about a lot is that the main priority for her was getting a world-class education. Look,

01:27:32.440 I'm sure that there are a lot of private or public schools that do well academically and give excellent

01:27:39.020 academics. I also happen to know that in that area, there are some of the best and strongest

01:27:45.140 and most academically excellent Christian private schools in the world that I probably like are not 0.73

01:27:55.400 even on the same level as a lot of the even good public schools in their area. So I just think that

01:28:01.260 that's something to consider in general, like our public education system does not do well. That doesn't

01:28:06.460 mean your district, but in general. So that's something that he's saying. And he says, look, the last

01:28:12.820 reason is you don't have to. Your children are yours. They do not belong to Caesar. You don't

01:28:17.600 have to take them back to the local government indoctrination center next semester. That's what

01:28:21.360 he says. He often says, if you send your kids to Caesar, don't be surprised if they come back Romans.

01:28:26.660 That's not a guarantee. Your kids could come back Romans after Christian education. They could be 1.00

01:28:31.840 indoctrinated in a million different ways. They could come out of public education being very strong

01:28:36.980 believers. That's true. He understands that there are exceptions to that rule, but he also understands

01:28:41.880 that public education systems, just like all schools are training soldiers in a particular

01:28:46.440 worldview and ideology. It is discipleship. All education is a form of indoctrination. All education

01:28:53.260 is a form of discipleship. He says, if someone asks me, should I give my child a Christ honoring

01:28:59.600 education or should I have my child be an influence on people who are unbelievers? Yes. Why do we assume 1.00

01:29:04.600 that the only way a child can have an impact and influence on unbelievers is if they give up a 0.98

01:29:08.920 Christ honoring Christ centered education? So I think that's a categorical error. He talks a lot

01:29:14.080 more about this and then there's, I don't have time to get into it. Gosh, this is so long. This

01:29:18.880 might be one of my longest episodes ever. I'm sorry. It's so much to say so much to say, but the

01:29:24.560 Puritans and the early reformers all the way up to Charles Spurgeon. And then of course, still 0.82

01:29:30.440 Christians today had a lot to say about education. One thing that Martin Luther said, he said,

01:29:35.360 I am afraid that the schools will prove the very gates of hell unless they diligently labor in

01:29:39.240 explaining the Holy Scriptures and engraving them in the heart of the youth. Is that not biblical?

01:29:43.240 Is that not Deuteronomy 6? The Puritans cared a lot about education, building education, and making

01:29:50.260 sure that education was Christ centered because they understood that nothing is neutral. Everything

01:29:55.500 that is true is God's truth. Education is discipleship. If there is an option, if there is an option

01:30:03.000 between giving my kids an education that is characterized by a biblical worldview and an

01:30:08.840 education that is not, if that is an option, if that is a choice, then we will do everything that

01:30:15.740 we can. We will do everything that we can to pick the first one because gosh, their little lives and

01:30:20.780 their little minds and their little hearts, they're so malleable. They're so vulnerable. They're so

01:30:25.100 precious. We have such a short amount of time with them. Of course, I'm going to take every opportunity

01:30:29.740 possible to make sure they're discipled in what is good and right and true. God is sovereign over

01:30:34.400 them. He's sovereign over their souls and he is sovereign over their salvation and even their

01:30:39.860 sanctification. Yes, but he has given them to me. He has given them to my husband and me to steward the

01:30:45.580 best way that we can. So I'm going to try everything that I can to glorify him by ensuring that they are

01:30:52.500 discipled in the beautiful and the true. All right, we're done. Over an hour and 40 minutes later.

01:31:01.040 Okay. Hope you enjoyed that. We'll be back tomorrow with a bunch of crazy stuff that's going on. I got

01:31:05.720 plenty of commentary on that. Tomorrow will be a shorter episode. Don't you worry. All right. See you

01:31:10.400 guys back here then.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - July 08, 2024

REPLAY ｜ Is Public School the Best Choice for Christians？

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