00:02:14.860I thought we would focus on Jesus's death and resurrection.
00:02:19.100There will be a lot of things we could talk about surrounding that.
00:02:21.860But, I mean, maybe you could say that this is not a new question or new doubts that people have, but I still see people asking questions about the validity of the resurrection and if it's necessary to really believe this.
00:02:38.220Recently, you've seen a lot of prominent figures say that they believe in Jesus or they believe in cultural Christianity like Richard Dawkins or they believe in the example of Christ, but it's the resurrection they could just never believe.
00:02:51.100So I'll just start with that and see what you think about it.
00:02:55.360This is somewhat new in our cultural moment to have people like Dawkins and Jonathan Rauch and other atheists and non-believers talk about the importance of Christianity.
00:03:06.560But the idea of separating the teachings of Jesus and the value of Christianity from the resurrection and the truth is not a new idea.
00:03:16.480This is classical liberal theology, and it's the difference between the historic Christian
00:03:21.540faith and liberal theology, which essentially teaches a different gospel.
00:03:27.240I think the main reason why is you go back to 1 Corinthians chapter 15, and Paul says,
00:03:32.280I pass on to you, Christians in Corinth, what was first passed on to me, what was earlier
00:03:36.500passed on to me, what is of most importance?
00:03:38.840Jesus died, was buried according to scriptures, rose on the third day, paid for our sins,
00:03:44.220and appeared to the 500, to Paul, to Peter, James, etc.
00:05:04.540I thought that we basically all agreed that Jesus at least was a real person.
00:05:08.480even if someone denied his divinity, denied the resurrection, I thought that everyone understood
00:05:14.640that there was pretty ample evidence that this person named Jesus really existed. So what would
00:05:20.760you say if someone earnestly wanted to know what is evidence that Jesus was even real? What would
00:05:26.380you say? Well, the first thing I would say is I'm an academic. Yes, I'm an apologist. So I'm not
00:05:32.600supposed to overstate things, but the idea that Jesus didn't exist is ridiculous. It's ridiculous.
00:05:39.880I mean, even Bart Ehrman, one of the leading atheists of our day, wrote a whole book about
00:05:44.640the idea that Jesus didn't exist. I think he said this idea doesn't emerge until like the 17th
00:05:49.600century, and he calls it a myth. And the reason is we just have too many sources, whether it's
00:05:55.080Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, independent books, historical accounts. We have Acts. We have the
00:06:01.080writings of Paul. We have the writings of Peter. We have the rest of the New Testament. We have
00:06:05.640early church fathers who assume that Jesus existed, those who received the baton, so to speak, from
00:06:12.580the gospel writers themselves. And then we have Josephus in the 90s, like, you know, three decades
00:06:19.280after the deaths of Peter and Paul, talking about the existence and death of Jesus, by the way.
00:06:25.080We have a Roman writer, early 2nd century, and even the critics of Christianity, when you get
00:06:31.520into the 2nd century and the 3rd, like Celsus and others, they never challenged the existence of
00:06:36.540Jesus. They say he was illegitimate. There's contradictions in the Bible. They raise other
00:06:41.240objections. So the idea that Jesus didn't exist is just silly and it's ridiculous.
00:06:46.600What about those that say, okay, yeah, Jesus existed, but there were a lot of revolutionaries
00:06:51.600in that time who, you know, who challenged the authority of Rome, or maybe even said that they
00:06:57.920were the Messiah. And Jesus, he just happened to gain traction. It's kind of all a coincidence. And
00:07:04.160he died. And that was the end of it. And he's really not special, because other people were
00:07:10.300just like him. What do we say to that? What I would say is, wow, that's an interesting hypothesis.
00:07:16.920What evidence do you have that that hypothesis is actually true?
00:07:21.040I mean, when people say things like that, they're going to have to defend it.
00:07:25.480And then I'm going to say, all right, let's imagine you're right.
00:07:28.440Why do we have so many people who believe that Jesus was the Son of God, believe that
00:07:35.020he did miracles, and believe that he rose on the third day?
00:07:38.700I mean, the vast majority of scholars, this comes from Gary Habermas's research.
00:07:42.600He's published recently in his book, On the Resurrection, Volume 1.
00:07:45.660He says the vast majority of scholars, like 90% plus, believe that the disciples at least report that they had experiences of the risen Jesus that they believed were real.
00:07:58.180Like they're reporting what they think are real experiences.
00:08:01.800So if Jesus didn't say and do these things, how do we account for the disciples' beliefs?
00:08:07.020But then how do we get James, the brother of Jesus?
00:08:09.500And according to Mark 3 and John 7, the brothers of Jesus were not believers in him during his lifetime.
00:08:15.660And then James is martyred in AD 62, the head of the church in Jerusalem.
00:09:00.960I mean, obviously, people know if they agree that Jesus lived, they know that he died.
00:09:06.720But the entire crucifixion thing, him dying on a cross, the mob choosing him to be crucified over Barabbas, Pontius Pilate, the two criminals on either side of them, is that not just all kind of a myth that Christians have put together to, you know, kind of finish their narrative that he was this sacrificial lamb?
00:09:29.860So, the claim that Jesus wasn't crucified is about up there as being as really contra what we know historically speaking, and I would argue ridiculous, with the claim that Jesus didn't exist.
00:09:44.000The evidence for the crucifixion of Jesus is virtually overwhelming.
00:09:52.120Well, for one, again, we have multiple early sources.
00:09:56.680We have 1 Corinthians chapter 15, which arguably that creed embedded within Corinthians could be dated within three to five years of the death of Jesus.
00:10:05.880We have the other New Testament books.
00:10:09.960Again, we have the early church fathers who the apostles, some of them knew, and they're writing at the end of the first century into the second century, affirming the crucifixion of Jesus.
00:10:21.100Again, we also have Josephus, a Jew, and Tacitus, a Roman, early second century.
00:10:26.240Josephus in the 90s, who not only affirmed that Jesus lived, but affirmed that he was crucified.
00:10:32.340Now, the other piece that I would add to this is it's also not the kind of thing that early
00:10:38.380Christians would invent if they're trying to build a movement. So crucifixion was the most shameful,
00:10:46.280dishonorable, humiliating, painful death imaginable. Deuteronomy says if you're hung on a tree,
00:10:54.420you're cursed. You were shamed publicly, brought shame on your faith, brought shame on your
00:11:00.380country. It was the ultimate worst death imaginable. So if the apostles are inventing a faith and
00:11:09.100they're trying to get people to follow it, a crucifixion is the least likely death that they
00:11:15.600would give rather than dishonorable. They would invent an honorable death, at least far more
00:11:20.960likely so you add that theological point to the historical point i think the only people that
00:11:26.400really deny the crucifixion of jesus would be mythicists which are a handful you can count
00:11:31.440them on one maybe two hands who deny that jesus existed and muslims which in surah 4 and of course
00:11:38.160the quran's not written until roughly seven centuries or so after the time of jesus surah 4
00:11:44.560denies the crucifixion not argue unless somebody's already committed to that being the word of god or
00:11:50.720historical, and I don't think there's good independent reason to take it as being so,
00:11:56.020you would never reject the crucifixion of Jesus. It's just too firmly established.
00:12:01.900What would you say if you were to play devil's advocate, which I know you do. I like to do too.
00:12:07.260I like to understand the other side's argument and respond to that. So what would you say is
00:12:11.120the best argument against the resurrection of Jesus, if there is a logical argument out there,
00:24:50.760And then within a few verses, even the soldier sees, I think this is the climax of the book of Mark, even the soldier sees that there's something supernatural and arguably divine about him at the same time.
00:25:03.100The question is, how do we hold these two in tension?
00:25:06.760Now, that verse, Father, Father, God, God, why have you forsaken me?
00:25:11.160That's from a psalm David wrote in Psalm 22.1.
00:25:15.060And if you read that psalm, a few things stand out about it.
00:25:18.420number one david's like god why have you abandoned me and it's this harrowing sense that david who's
00:25:24.440one of the chosen like you know precursors to the messiah chosen king is saying to god why have you
00:25:31.980abandoned me but you also have in that passage there's another there's a few other messianic
00:25:37.160references about how they cast his garment as lots also in psalm 22 is the sense of uh where
00:25:45.480they pierce my hands, which is a foreshadowing of the crucifixion. So I think Jesus cited this in
00:25:53.540part because he's saying on the cross, basically when it's finished, I am fulfilling the Old
00:26:00.960Testament and what it said about me. David suffered. I suffer even more because I'm greater
00:26:07.260than David. So not only is this a messianic psalm, it also makes clear that David was going to feel
00:26:15.960this sense of abandonment, but not actually be abandoned. He said, I felt like God abandoned me
00:26:21.920and left me alone, but God has and will triumph. We've seen that in the past. So in some ways,
00:26:28.460Jesus is doing the same thing. He's saying as David felt abandoned and God was still with him
00:26:35.200and working towards the good, this is how I feel abandoned, and God is going to work it for good.
00:26:42.580But with that said, it's really important that we don't downplay just the human pain and agony
00:26:49.100that Jesus was going through. We typically think about the physical pain on the cross
00:26:55.100as being the worst, and that was unimaginable. But I think the worst part is the greatest
00:27:01.140injustice that the only person who's ever lived who didn't sin, I mean, Jesus says to the religious
00:27:08.100leaders in John, he's like, who of you can convict me of sin? The only sinless person who's ever
00:27:14.340lived taking on the sin of the world, that way Jesus is also crying out, expressing that distress
00:27:23.680and that pain before the father. Why do you think the crowd chose Jesus to be crucified
00:27:30.780over Barabbas. I'm curious what you believe that says about the particular people at that time
00:27:37.720and what that might tell us about human sinful nature in general.
00:27:42.560That's really hard to know for sure, because at least when you read John, you get the impression
00:27:47.460that Pilate is trying to get an excuse to get out of this. He sees that Jesus is, he's like,
00:27:53.780I find no guilt in this man. I've had him whipped. He's trying to do everything to please the crowd,
00:27:59.760and they're not pleased. Now, how big the crowd was, exactly how many of them wanted Jesus
00:28:06.540crucified, that's hard to say. I mean, again, in John, you have the sense of some of the religious
00:28:13.060leaders at that time believed in Jesus and followed him, but some did not. It starts as
00:28:20.280early as John 5 when Jesus heals the man at the pool of Bethesda on the Sabbath, claiming the
00:28:27.820authority of God, that they start planning to kill him. So I think it probably was certain
00:28:34.600religious leaders of that time with power who felt threatened by Jesus. And Jesus makes it clear that
00:28:42.520they did not know the father. They thought they did, but they did not know the father. If they
00:28:47.400knew the father, they would listen to him because the father and Moses and the scriptures and the
00:28:52.320miracles all point towards that. So I think they were spiritually blind. They felt threatened by
00:28:59.060the power of Jesus and thought that this would be the end of Jesus, which of course is the greatest
00:29:05.240irony in human history. About as ironic as when Pilate says to Jesus, he says something to the
00:29:12.440effect of, you won't talk to me? Don't you and I have power to crucify you or not? And Jesus is
00:29:17.140like, you have no authority over me. This crowd and Pilate thought this was going to be the end
00:29:23.480of it. But ironically, it was just the beginning. Yeah. Gosh, when you said blindness, it reminded
00:29:30.360me of what I was reading this morning in John 9, when Jesus healed the blind man and the Pharisees,
00:29:38.200they are very confused about this. Sometimes you don't know if the Pharisees are really confused
00:29:42.820or if they're trying to trap Jesus, I guess usually it's the latter, but they're talking
00:29:48.240to this blind man, trying to figure out, okay, who healed you? What do you think about him? Do
00:29:53.540you think that this man is a sinner? He healed you on the Sabbath. And it's just, it's clear,
00:29:58.680they are spiritually hardened and they can't see Jesus for who he is and what he's doing. They
00:30:06.520can't even say unapologetically, wow, this is a great thing that this man has been healed.
00:30:12.580They're more concerned with what Jesus is really up to.
00:30:15.980And it seems like that theme is carried through even to the moment that we're talking about
00:30:20.640as they are delivering him over to be crucified.
00:30:24.040And it's easy to look at that and say, how could they do that?
00:30:28.600I mean, truly a sheep led to the slaughter.
00:30:30.800But it says a lot about the hardness of our hearts.
00:30:33.820I think we can all see parts of ourselves in those who are deriding Jesus,
00:30:38.620who are mocking Jesus, who betrayed Jesus, that we think we know better and not really
00:30:46.060understanding the spirit of God's commands, even if we do know the letter of the law.
00:30:52.240And so it's very humbling to see Jesus's interactions with the holiest and most knowledgeable
00:30:58.300people at the time. He really does flip over the wisdom of the world and makes it look foolish.
00:31:05.360And it's just a good check for us that, okay, like, are we following the wisdom of God?
00:31:11.440Are we relying on our own smarts, our own knowledge, our own power?
00:31:17.260You know, what's amazing about that story is, again, I've just been reading through John, so it's so fresh in my mind, is there's so many people who know what Jesus did and know who he is, but they're afraid to speak up.
00:31:31.880So this blind man in John 9 you're talking about
00:31:34.460was blind from the moment that he was born.
00:33:52.700But whatever it is, it's so easy for us to be intimidated by the opinions of others or what they can do to us that we won't say what is true.
00:38:04.200We contribute nothing to our own forgiveness and standing before God except a humble acceptance of what Christ has done.
00:38:14.720And I think when we realize the debt that he paid, all that can do is humble us before God and then live differently because we have actually been forgiving and can stand in relationship with God.
00:38:28.960Amen. Yes, I remember. I don't remember who originally said this. Maybe you know, but I think I heard it in high school and it just clicked. So much of what you're saying is encapsulated in this picture that there are so many religions that can tell you how to get to God. And some people will stop there.
00:38:46.720You know, Buddhism can tell you how to get to God. Islam, Judaism, all of these religions can tell you the steps that you have to take, the rules that you have to follow to find that divine, fulfilling life.
00:39:00.440But the difference in those religions and Christianity is that Christianity actually doesn't give that message at all.
00:39:08.180Christianity is not saying, here's what you can do to get to God. Here's how you climb the mountain to get to God.
00:39:14.000it's actually saying you can't. You can't do that. You can't climb up the mountain. You cannot
00:39:18.580get to God. You are completely powerless to do that. So God had to come down the mountain to
00:39:24.780rescue you. And I love what you said, that we contribute nothing to our forgiveness.
00:39:30.040That is the distinctive, I think, between Christianity and all the other faiths.
00:39:35.080It's not about rules to follow so that you will gain salvation. Yes, there are commands that we
00:39:40.480abide by because we have been saved and love God, but we cannot clean ourselves up for God.
00:39:46.040That is a freeing, kind of liberating good news that no other religion has. It's just
00:39:53.940too much of a generalization and not true to say all these different religions are basically the
00:39:58.880same. They're not. Christianity is the one that is distinct because our gospel is different than
00:40:04.520all the others. Amen. You remind me of a story probably 15 or 20 years ago, I was speaking to
00:40:10.220an atheist group at Berkeley. And I was making the case that Christianity is unique for four
00:40:15.400reasons. And one of them is God's grace, that salvation is a free gift. And these were students,
00:40:22.240so I kind of thought free would like land with them, you know, students paying for their education,
00:40:27.080you don't have a lot of money. And the student afterwards, I'll never forget, he goes, he
00:40:31.180actually said it's a way, he goes, Sean, your arguments are so bad. If I didn't know any
00:40:35.380differently, I'd think you were stoned on crack. He actually said it like that to me. I'm like, okay,
00:40:40.220He goes, in Buddhism, there's a certain kind of gift and grace
00:40:44.820that is given to people on their journey.
00:40:48.540And he goes, so you find grace in other faiths.
00:40:51.920And interestingly, I was in a doctoral class on Buddhism at that time.
00:40:59.540Within Buddhism, certain forms of Buddhism,
00:41:02.420there are gods that give some grace for somebody on their journey.
00:41:06.800but it's different in saying you have to do certain actions and earn your way to salvation
00:41:12.700and you get little pockets of grace along the way and the entire thing is a free gift that's
00:41:20.820different and that's unique to christianity and that's why you know paul says he talks about grace
00:41:26.340is a free gift this is not from yourselves it is a gift from god so no one can boast
00:41:35.940All I can tell you, Allie, is the older I get, the more I'm aware of just how profoundly
00:41:41.200I fall short of this, how much I need God, and I'm just thankful for His grace.
00:41:49.380You know, I think there is something biblical.
00:41:51.740It might have been a little bit crass, but him saying that your theological arguments
00:41:56.620sound like you're high on crack or stoned on crack.
00:41:59.920You know, I mean, 1 Corinthians 1 makes really clear that like the wisdom of God sounds like foolishness to the wise of the world and that he turns that on his head.
00:42:11.040And that is routinely what Jesus did, as we were talking about earlier, with some of the smartest, most knowledgeable religious leaders.
00:42:17.460They thought that he sounded like he was crazy.
00:42:20.840I would love to know where that student is today and if there was a seed that was planted there.
00:42:25.960Okay, I would love to talk about just maybe kind of rapid fire with the little time that we have left. Just some basic theological questions. And we got some really good questions in from my listeners, or really maybe apologetics, I guess they go hand in hand. But they reminded me of some questions, actually, that my five, almost six-year-old has been asking me.
00:42:47.660And as you know, at this age, kids can become really good theologians and they ask questions
00:42:53.520that you're like, that's a really good question.
00:42:55.840There are grownups that are still asking and debating things like this.
00:42:59.040So we were reading, for example, which we've done many, many times, but we were reading
00:43:03.420in her kid's Bible, the, you know, the story of the Garden of Eden of creation and the