RFK Jr. The Defender - A Veteran For Peace with Bruce Gagnon

Bruce Gagnon is a veteran of many, many battles, and particularly has focused on the weaponization of the space. He is the coordinator of the Global Network Against Weapons and Nuclear Power in Space, and the State Coordinator of the Florida Coalition for Peace and Justice. He's worked on space issues for over 35 years, and in 1987, he organized the largest peace protest in Florida history at Cape Canaveral. He was the organizer of the Cancel Cassini campaign against NASA, where they were going to put 72 pounds of plutonium into space. And he has been given the award as having most censored articles of the year on several years from Project Censored. Bruce has been a supporter of the anti-war movement since the early 1980s, and is a regular contributor to the New York Times, CNN, and Fox News. He has also been a frequent guest on CNN, Fox News, NPR, CBS, and other media outlets. He has spent a lot of years studying Vladimir Putin, and his views on the current crisis in Ukraine are not only interesting, but critical of the U.S. government and its policies, but also of the media's coverage of the situation in Ukraine and Russia. He s been a long-time supporter of peace and human rights efforts around the world, and has been involved in a number of peace movements around the globe, including in the fight against nuclear proliferation and anti-AIDS. . In this episode, Bruce talks about the current state of affairs in the space, and why he thinks Putin is the most powerful man in the world and why we should all be worried about what he s up to in space and in the Middle East, not just in the Ukraine, and Russia s role in the future in the 21st century, and how he s going to play a role in creating a multipolar world in the next few years in the post-Cold War world. He also talks about how he thinks about Russia s relationship with China, and what he thinks we should be doing to make the world more multipolar and more like the old days of the Cold War era, not the old Soviet Union. and what we can do to stop Putin s Russia s influence in the first half of the world and how we can all of us can work together to make a better world in order to stop him from becoming more like China s in the second half of our the best country or better than the old USSR.

00:00:00.000 Hey everybody, my guest today is Bruce Gagnon, who I would, I guess I'd describe you, Bruce, as a, I guess in the broader level, as a peace activist.

00:00:11.000 He is a veteran of many, many, many battles, and particularly he has focused on the weaponization of the space.

00:00:20.000 He's the coordinator of the Global Network Against Weapons and Nuclear Power in Space.

00:00:25.000 He was co-founder of that network in 1992, and he's the state coordinator of the Florida Coalition for Peace and Justice.

00:00:34.000 He's worked on space issues for over 35 years.

00:00:39.000 In 1987, he organized the largest peace protest in Florida history at Cape Canaveral.

00:00:46.000 He was the organizer of the Cancel Cassini campaign against NASA, where they were going to put 72 pounds of plutonium into space.

00:00:55.000 And he has been...

00:00:59.000 Given the award as having most censored articles of the year on several years from Project Censored, I have also won that award a couple of times myself, including in 2005 and more recently as well.

00:01:16.000 I'm really happy to have you here.

00:01:18.000 And I want to get your take on the Ukraine.

00:01:20.000 One of the things that I'm doing on this show is really, you know, I don't have a position on the Ukraine.

00:01:26.000 I don't have a position on the Ukraine.

00:01:28.000 But what really offends me is that there is no debate happening and no debate is permissible.

00:01:35.000 And this is the same thing that happened during the Iraq war between 2001 and 2003, during, you know, when we had this kind of orchestrated hysteria that was all directed towards going to war, a preemptive war against Saddam Hussein, who had nothing to do with a preemptive war against Saddam Hussein, who had nothing to do He had nothing to do with the anthrax attacks, but the neocons in Congress and in the White House wanted a war and they got a war.

00:02:03.000 And today I look around the world and I see a lot of villains around the world, not just Vladimir Putin, but I see villains in Saudi Arabia who are killing hundreds of thousands of people in Yemen. 0.50

00:02:16.000 I see atrocities occurring in Somalia, in Ethiopia.

00:02:22.000 Many, many other hotspots in the world.

00:02:25.000 And I have to wonder about whether all the things that were being told on the actual media, where there's no debate, there's no difference of opinion, everybody is operating within the same guardrails, whether it's CNN or Fox News.

00:02:42.000 And so I've been inviting people onto this show.

00:02:46.000 Who have different takes.

00:02:48.000 And I really wanted to hear from you, Bruce, because you've spent a lot of years studying Vladimir Putin and this whole issue.

00:02:56.000 So can you kind of summarize what your read on the current crisis is?

00:03:01.000 Well, I think it's two things that jump out to me.

00:03:06.000 Number one is climate change.

00:03:08.000 Because of climate change, Russia, you know, has the largest land border with the Arctic.

00:03:14.000 And as the Arctic ice melts, guess what?

00:03:17.000 Here's oil.

00:03:19.000 Drill, baby, drill. 1.00

00:03:20.000 And it's no question that the United States and the West have been fighting resource wars for a long time now.

00:03:27.000 And Russia really has the world's largest resource base.

00:03:31.000 They're the largest country in the world.

00:03:34.000 The day that Putin began this military operation, as he calls it, that very same day, U.S. and NATO began a war game called Cold Response.

00:03:45.000 Right on the Norway-Russia border.

00:03:49.000 No coincidence, I'm convinced.

00:03:51.000 So that's number one.

00:03:53.000 I think the U.S. wants to balkanize, break up Russia into smaller pieces.

00:03:58.000 The Rand Corporation did a report in 2019 where they laid it all out.

00:04:03.000 Saying that we can use Ukraine as a tool to destabilize, to create internal problems for Russia that will lead to the balkanization, like the US did in Yugoslavia, US and NATO did in Yugoslavia in 1999.

00:04:21.000 The second reason is because of the growing effort by the Global South Russia, China, India, Brazil, many other countries to create a multipolar world, where it's not just US king of the hill, standing at the top, running everything, dictating terms, setting the rules.

00:04:43.000 One day they say this is the new rule of the road and another day they change it.

00:04:49.000 Nobody really knows what's going on, you know, from Washington.

00:04:52.000 So the U.S., I think, recognizes it has a small window of opportunity left to try to break down that effort to create a multipolar world.

00:05:04.000 And they've declared it openly now.

00:05:06.000 We hear it from the White House that they want regime change in Moscow.

00:05:11.000 And then they say, and then we're on to China after that.

00:05:14.000 And they want the same thing in China, in Beijing.

00:05:18.000 So I think those are the two things driving this.

00:05:20.000 I've been following this story in Ukraine since late 2013, the lead up to the coup that happened in early 2014.

00:05:29.000 I watched literally in real time on videos.

00:05:34.000 And I've been following it daily ever since.

00:05:36.000 I've been to Russia three times, then I went to the Donbass, the border area right next to the Russian border, eastern Ukraine.

00:05:45.000 And I went to Lugansk and Donetsk and really learned a lot during that time.

00:05:50.000 So I'm convinced that this whole operation by the United States and NATO is an intentional process to create a war.

00:05:59.000 To enrich the military-industrial complex, we see that just this past week, President Biden asked for $33 billion more for the war, and now the Congress gives them $40 billion.

00:06:13.000 At the same time, we can't have Medicare for all.

00:06:17.000 Congress says, where will the money come from to pay for that? 1.00

00:06:20.000 We can't have the alleviation of stupidity. 0.99

00:06:24.000 We're dealing with climate crisis in any significant way. 1.00

00:06:27.000 And the infrastructure of the country has fallen apart.

00:06:30.000 So all of this to me indicates that there's something afoot.

00:06:37.000 was immediately after the U.S. installed coup in 2014.

00:06:42.000 One of the first things the new right-wing government did that was backed by the muscle of the neo-Nazis that come from western Ukraine, the first thing they did was to declare the speaking of Russian in Ukraine illegal.

00:06:59.000 The people in eastern Ukraine Again, Russian ethnic right along the Russian border began holding peaceful marches and referendum campaigns where they said we want a federated Ukraine.

00:07:12.000 They weren't saying we want to be part of Russia, we want to be separatists or anything else.

00:07:16.000 We want a federated Ukraine where we can decide on our own language and we can elect our own local officials, our mayors, things like that, rather than have them appointed by Kiev.

00:07:28.000 And so immediately as they were doing that, the Nazi death squads, as I call them, came eastward.

00:07:36.000 You're talking about the Azov, Italian basically.

00:07:40.000 And the right sector, there's several different elements of these neo-Nazis.

00:07:45.000 And over the years now, over eight years, they've killed 14,000 people.

00:07:50.000 And they've wounded 34,000 people.

00:07:55.000 And so during these eight years...

00:07:56.000 Mainly the ethnic Russians in Donbass and around Odessa.

00:08:02.000 That's correct.

00:08:03.000 That's absolutely right.

00:08:05.000 And so during these years.

00:08:06.000 And by the way, Putin, whether you believe or not, says that the reason that he has come into the Ukraine is to stop ethnic cleansing against ethnic Russians in the eastern Ukraine. says that the reason that he has come into the Is to stop ethnic cleansing against ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine.

00:08:25.000 He has said that he has no ambition to take over all of Ukraine.

00:08:31.000 The Western story is that he is on a war of aggression to reintegrate Ukraine back into the Soviet Union.

00:08:41.000 And so those are the two different stories.

00:08:43.000 And I, you know, again, I'm taking note that those are the stories.

00:08:49.000 You're right about that.

00:08:50.000 But I have to say that if you look at 2014 to today, what you see consistently...

00:08:57.000 Is Putin and the Russian government, Lavrov, the foreign minister, working so hard to talk to Europe, talk to the United States, to get them to restrain these death squads that have been coming, that have been trained.

00:09:14.000 I have a friend whose son is in the U.S., Special Forces stationed at Fort Carson, Colorado.

00:09:21.000 And he told me that his son and their units were sent to Western Ukraine to train Ukrainian soldiers.

00:09:29.000 Well, he was sent there two times.

00:09:32.000 What we know is that during World War II, When Hitler's army swept into the Soviet Union, they came through Ukraine, and a guy by the name of Stefan Bandera, one of the nationalists from western Ukraine, put on a Nazi uniform, and his supporters joined the Nazis, and they helped kill tens of thousands of Jews, Poles, and Russian ethnics.

00:09:57.000 And so in Western Ukraine, there's long been this history of support of Hitler and the Nazis.

00:10:06.000 And so they're still there today.

00:10:08.000 It's still a reality.

00:10:09.000 In fact, again, one of the other things that the new government did after the coup...

00:10:13.000 And 2014 was to name Stefan Bandera one of the heroes of the nation.

00:10:18.000 I just heard yesterday on national public radio that Russia's claims that there are Nazis in Ukraine is wrong.

00:10:26.000 It's false.

00:10:27.000 There are none.

00:10:27.000 Well, the evidence is overwhelming.

00:10:30.000 And before the last couple of years anyway, the mainstream media was covering that, that there were indeed Nazis there.

00:10:37.000 So anyway, back to what I was trying to say was that Putin and Lavrov have been working hard for years to try to get the West to to do several things.

00:10:47.000 Number one is stop NATO expansion.

00:10:50.000 After the collapse of the former Soviet Union, Gorbachev was promised that NATO would not expand eastward.

00:10:57.000 And it was during the Bill Clinton administration that he started What he called NATO enhancement that is now on steroids today.

00:11:06.000 NATO war games coming right up to the doorstep of Russia.

00:11:09.000 Let me interrupt you because the promise that you're talking about was a promise that was made by George Bush when he was president.

00:11:17.000 to Mikhail Gorbachev, who was about to dismantle the old Soviet Union and wanted, before he started that process, wanted a promise from George Bush that George Bush would not expand NATO into those former Soviet vassal states. wanted a promise from George Bush that George Bush would And Bush made the statement famously that NATO would not move one inch to the east.

00:11:44.000 And today, as a result of the process that was begun during the Glenn administration, NATO is now in 13 countries that are part of the former Soviet Union.

00:11:56.000 And has nuclear weapons, I believe, and some of them are missiles, at least.

00:12:01.000 That's right.

00:12:02.000 And so those are two issues that are really important to Russia.

00:12:07.000 A third one is the United States has built missile launch facilities in Romania and Poland that can fire first-strike attack nuclear-capable cruise missiles into Russia in a very short period of time.

00:12:22.000 Essentially, a Cuban missile crisis in reverse.

00:12:27.000 How is Russia to respond to that?

00:12:30.000 And when NATO has these war games, both up in the Nordic region, especially up in Norway, again bordering Russia, and in Eastern Europe, coming up to the Russian borders, After they leave, after the US-NATO leave, they leave a lot of hardware at weapons depots that have been built in Poland and in Norway.

00:12:52.000 So Russia sees this massive escalation and preparation for war right on their doorstep.

00:12:59.000 Now, how would the United States respond if Russia or China were doing the equivalent and putting bases in Mexico or Canada?

00:13:10.000 We'd go ballistic.

00:13:11.000 What if they were holding war games right upon our borders?

00:13:14.000 We would go ballistic.

00:13:16.000 But when we do it to them, number one, they're not supposed to say anything about it.

00:13:22.000 And number two, the American people don't hardly know anything about it at all.

00:13:26.000 It's not reported in the corporate media.

00:13:28.000 So over these last eight years, Russia has been doing all kinds of shuttle diplomacy.

00:13:34.000 They helped institute the Minsk agreements, an agreement that Ukraine signed, saying they would pull back their troops away from the Russian border, away from the Russian ethnic region of the Donbass.

00:13:50.000 They would allow for federated Ukraine in Lugansk and Donetsk, in those areas.

00:13:57.000 And they have never implemented those Minsk agreements whatsoever.

00:14:01.000 They've essentially been ripped up and torn.

00:14:04.000 There was Minsk 1 and Minsk 2, neither of them ever implemented.

00:14:10.000 In fact, it's kind of well known that the Nazis told Zelenskyy Soon after he was elected, he ran on a campaign where he said he wanted to end the war.

00:14:23.000 That's why he got most of his votes out of the Russian ethnic region.

00:14:28.000 They were happy to hear somebody say that from in the government.

00:14:31.000 But the Nazis threatened Zelensky with his life.

00:14:34.000 By war, what do you mean?

00:14:35.000 Do you mean the war by...

00:14:37.000 Western Ukraine militarized groups against the ethnic Russians in the Donbass of the Civil War.

00:14:47.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:14:48.000 So Zelensky was threatened.

00:14:51.000 So there we go.

00:14:52.000 And so if you had to assign blame, how much would you assign to Putin and how much would you assign to the West?

00:15:00.000 Well, let's imagine you're Putin for a moment.

00:15:04.000 You've been doing everything you can diplomatically, and it's been very public.

00:15:09.000 I think anybody that has followed this at all has to acknowledge that Putin was meeting with Western European leaders over and over and over again, talking to him on the phone, talking to Biden.

00:15:21.000 Lavrov was doing shuttle diplomacy like crazy.

00:15:24.000 They didn't want a war.

00:15:26.000 They didn't want it, but they knew it was coming.

00:15:28.000 Let's face it, they could read the writing on the wall.

00:15:31.000 They read that Rand A study that I referred to earlier that lays the whole plan out.

00:15:37.000 It was again published in 2019.

00:15:39.000 I think that they did everything they could.

00:15:41.000 I mean, I know some people in the peace movement say, well, why did Putin invade?

00:15:46.000 Why didn't he just talk?

00:15:48.000 Why didn't he just diplomatically try to resolve this?

00:15:51.000 Well, they haven't been following the situation so closely and they don't know that he did.

00:15:56.000 He's been trying this even before the coup in 2014 in Kiev.

00:16:02.000 The 2007 Munich Security Conference that Putin went to, a very famous one, you can find the video on YouTube, where he essentially pleads with the West.

00:16:15.000 Give us security agreements.

00:16:17.000 Let's return to negotiations for treaties.

00:16:20.000 The United States had pulled out of the ABM Treaty, the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty.

00:16:25.000 They pulled out of the Intermediate Nuclear Forces Treaty, the INF Treaty.

00:16:30.000 He said, let's return to these treaties.

00:16:33.000 Let's have stable relations.

00:16:35.000 Stop NATO expansion.

00:16:36.000 We can all get along.

00:16:37.000 And sitting in the audience was John McCain, And some other American leaders, and they were smirking at him.

00:16:46.000 The camera zoomed in on the Americans there, and they were smirking at Putin.

00:16:51.000 And his pleas were ignored all the way back to 2007.

00:16:56.000 So I think this thing has been in motion for a long time, this balkanization, this breakup of Russia.

00:17:03.000 Because they want their resources.

00:17:05.000 They want their oil.

00:17:06.000 They want their natural gas.

00:17:08.000 They want their minerals.

00:17:10.000 They want their timber.

00:17:11.000 And they don't want such a big, strong country around to stand up to the United States.

00:17:18.000 Well, people who, in the mainstream media, many of our leaders who are trying to do the right thing, we assume, what they will say is that Putin was fomenting A separatist movement in the Ukraine dressing Russian troops as if they were Ukrainian military or putting them in civilian clothes and fomenting a revolution and

00:17:49.000 provoking the government in Kiev to retaliate in order to bring peace back to the to Dombas.

00:17:59.000 How do you respond to that?

00:18:01.000 Well, after the coup in 2014, again, Victoria Nuland, the U.S. Ambassador Jeffrey Piat, the famous phone call where they said, F the EU, we're going to install who we want to install in the new government.

00:18:16.000 After that coup, the new government said the speaking of Russian was illegal.

00:18:21.000 People came out and started having these peaceful marches and they were holding these referendum campaigns.

00:18:28.000 They were attacked by these Nazis.

00:18:31.000 That's very, I mean, it's all on YouTube.

00:18:34.000 I mean, it's all there.

00:18:35.000 But anyway, it was the coal miners.

00:18:38.000 There's coal mining region in the Donbass, right along the Russian border.

00:18:41.000 It was the coal miners. 0.99

00:18:43.000 It was electricians.

00:18:44.000 It was teachers.

00:18:45.000 It was musicians that came out and formed a militia.

00:18:50.000 And they would stop these tanks that were coming in from the Ukrainian government.

00:18:57.000 Sometimes the troops, the Ukrainian troops, weren't Nazis.

00:19:02.000 They were just regular soldiers.

00:19:03.000 Armed Forces.

00:19:04.000 And they were from the Donbass.

00:19:06.000 And they'd say, oh, we don't want to attack our own people.

00:19:09.000 And so they would turn over to them their tanks, their rifle, you know, their machine guns, etc., etc.

00:19:15.000 And this is how the republics first began to get weapons to safeguard their families who were being attacked.

00:19:24.000 By the Nazis over time.

00:19:26.000 I've always called it a self-defense forces in the Donbass.

00:19:31.000 They were literally protecting themselves, their families, their communities, and soon the Nazis were shelling with U.S. and NATO weapon systems, with U.S.-NATO training, U.S.-NATO advisors, clearly deeply involved in the operation on the part of the Kiev government.

00:19:54.000 And they were just trying to protect their communities and their families.

00:19:58.000 So I think the story is pretty simple if one is willing to look at it.

00:20:03.000 I think, Bruce, it's really important to me to have dissident voices like yours, to have a different side of the story.

00:20:13.000 Because the story that we're hearing now, the mainstream media, is very, very different.

00:20:18.000 And again, I'm not taking a position on it, but I do take a position that we should hear every side and we should hear voices like yours.

00:20:26.000 Here's what I don't like.

00:20:27.000 The people who are explaining U.S. policy to the American public, almost all of the people that you see on CNN and on Fox News who are supposedly military experts and security experts are working for the companies and are not identified as such.

00:20:46.000 Like Boeing, like Lockheed, like General Dynamics, and the other big companies that are making billions and billions of dollars from this conflict.

00:20:57.000 When Congress voted $40 billion, To go to this conflict, that money goes to the Ukraine and then bounces right back and goes to these military contractors in the U.S. whose employees are the people that you see on CNN acting as experts explaining the whole conflict to the public.

00:21:24.000 They did the same thing during the Iraq War.

00:21:26.000 And they gave us a war that at that point was the worst public foreign policy blunder in American history.

00:21:35.000 I guess Vietnam probably is a rival, but the Iraq war was outrageous. 0.95

00:21:40.000 And today we're seeing all of the same ingredients and that worries me a lot.

00:21:46.000 Well, just think of our own Secretary of Defense in the United States, Lloyd Austin, was on the board of Raytheon before President Biden picked him to be the, you know, head of DOD. But, you know, you mentioned the media.

00:22:01.000 Let's face it, in the last few years, we've seen repeatedly that That the media runs a particular line on various issues of concern to the nation.

00:22:15.000 And anyone that stands outside of those lines, anyone that has an alternative voice, is demonized, is bounced off social media.

00:22:27.000 And that's where we are today.

00:22:29.000 So what I see happening when it comes to the Ukraine war is very similar to what we've been experiencing on other issues in the last few years.

00:22:40.000 I don't see much difference.

00:22:42.000 You either play along with the line that comes out of Washington Or you are demonized as well.

00:22:49.000 So that's where we are.

00:22:51.000 And I hope that the American people are figuring it out.

00:22:54.000 I've seen polling the last few days that say that increasingly high percentages of the American people do not support this U.S. war.

00:23:05.000 And they, you know, people are not stupid when they hear that Congress just appropriated $40 billion to give To Ukraine, which is losing in this war. 0.99

00:23:17.000 I know we hear on the media that they're kicking Russia's ass, but it's not true. 0.97

00:23:22.000 You know, when that money could be used to deal with real serious issues we have in this country, I think people understand that. 0.98

00:23:30.000 They see the writing on the wall.

00:23:32.000 They saw what happened 20 years in Afghanistan.

00:23:36.000 Yeah, and what I think people are beginning to understand that they are paying for the war, we are paying for the war, and we're paying for it because that $40 billion, which the U.S. government does not have, they borrow that money from the Federal Reserve, the Federal Reserve prints more money, and And we get 8.5% inflation.

00:23:57.000 That inflation, which is eating into the wealth of every middle class and working class American, is the tax that you are paying to finance General Dynamics and Raytheon and Boeing and all these other companies who are making billions on this war.

00:24:17.000 You are paying for it.

00:24:18.000 You're paying for it, not in a direct tax.

00:24:20.000 Through inflation, which is a tax on the poor and the middle class.

00:24:25.000 Exactly.

00:24:26.000 And Europe, which is now being told that they have to buy U.S. fracked gas, LNG gas, that's going to be shipped overseas at a much higher cost.

00:24:39.000 So the Europeans are being forced by the United States not to...

00:24:44.000 Yeah, you know, it's crazy.

00:24:46.000 And so their economy is going to crash.

00:24:48.000 We shut down.

00:24:51.000 It's the same thing.

00:24:52.000 The oil companies drove the Iraq war, and here we are.

00:24:55.000 We're shutting down the oil and gas supplies from Russia and creating new markets for U.S. oil and gas manufacturers.

00:25:04.000 And, you know, anybody who says they're concerned about climate, you know, this is a climate crime.

00:25:09.000 It's all about making these companies, the oil companies and military industrial companies, richer.

00:25:15.000 They're driving foreign policy like they always have, and We need to hear, you know, it doesn't mean that Putin is a good guy.

00:25:24.000 There's a lot of bad guys in the world.

00:25:26.000 The king in Saudi Arabia picked up a U.S. journalist with a bone saw in a premeditated murder.

00:25:35.000 In Saudi Arabia, they behead people every Tuesday in a big parking lot behind the Great Mosque in Riyadh, and they have had an undeclared war against Yemen, where they've killed 350,000 people.

00:25:51.000 If you want to look for villains in the world, there's villains all over the place, and they're doing bad things.

00:25:57.000 And the question is, Why do we get involved in some of these controversies?

00:26:03.000 Why is the U.S. the police person of the world?

00:26:07.000 Why do we have to hollow out our middle class to pay for foreign wars? 1.00

00:26:12.000 And it's a question I think every American needs to ask.

00:26:15.000 And I deeply, deeply appreciate your courage at taking a dissident view on this, Bruce.

00:26:22.000 Tell our listeners where they can follow you and how they can support you.

00:26:27.000 Thank you.

00:26:28.000 Our website is spaceforpeace.org.

00:26:35.000 And I have a popular blog called Organizing Notes, N-O-T-E-S. I hope maybe you can put the link in the description of the podcast.

00:26:45.000 It's kind of like my organizing diary, where every day I'm posting things that I learn and And that I find out about everything that's going on today.

00:26:55.000 I guess I would like to maybe conclude with the words of Martin Luther King, who was demonized when he came out against the Vietnam War.

00:27:04.000 He said at the time, That the United States was the greatest purveyor of violence in the world.

00:27:11.000 And I don't see anything different today.

00:27:14.000 We're spending literally, when you add up all the various pots of gold, the Department of Energy, that's where the nuclear weapons money is put.

00:27:22.000 So when you add up all these pots of gold, the US is spending a trillion dollars a year on the military.

00:27:29.000 Well, Russia is spending the equivalent of What France and Germany spend, around $65 billion a year.

00:27:37.000 Now, Russia might be able to fight a war in Ukraine on $65 billion a year, but there's no way in the world that they're going to be able to go out and take over all of Europe, as is claimed all the time by the corporate media.

00:27:53.000 Russia has a smaller economy than California, so the idea that they're this huge global threat that's going to take over Europe is really a fantasy. 0.91

00:28:05.000 Anyway, Bruce, thank you so much for everything that you do, and thank you for joining us.

00:28:10.000 Thank you.

RFK Jr. The Defender - May 23, 2022

A Veteran For Peace with Bruce Gagnon

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