Keith Hilton is a law professor and author, and Kevin Nathaniel is a world-renowned world-music artist. These two twin brothers took radically different paths in life, but today find themselves converging in agreement with many of the things we ve been fighting for in this campaign. And welcome both of you to the show, where we ll talk about why they have two different names and what they do to honor their twin brother Bobby Kennedy. This episode was produced and edited by Alex Blumberg. Our theme music was made by Micah Vellian and our ad music was written and performed by Mark Phillips. Additional music was performed by Bobby Kennedy Jr. and the Kennedy Center for American Engagement. The show was mixed and produced by Matthew Boll. It was edited by David Axelrod. Special thanks and production by Kevin Nathaniel Nathaniel and Keith Hilton. Thanks to our sponsor, Caff Monster Energy Drink, and to our producer, Kevin Nathaniel. We hope you enjoy this episode and remember Bobby Kennedy Sr. and his life and legacy. Thank you, Bobby Kennedy, for being a hero in our lives and for supporting our campaign. Love you, always, always. Rest in Paradise, Always, Always Love, Always Remember, Always Fight On. -Eugene and Bobby Kennedy -John Singleton - Thank You, John Singleton, John McCain, Sr., Sr., JFK, Sr. & Robert Kennedy, Jr., Sr. John Aviles, Jr. , Sr., Jr. & Sr. - Sr. Kennedy Jr., Jr., JFK Sr., & Sr., and Sr. etc., etc. - Jr., etc, etc. etc. & Co., etc., & all the rest in service to the cause of civil rights, etc., and so much more. . . . etc. ...and so on and so on. And so on, etc.. and more! And much more . Thanks, John, John Kennedy Sr., John, Sr.. and Sr., & Jr. & Co. & Jr., & Co.. & Alyssa, etc.... Thank You. , etc., etc., & etc. Thank you. etc., etc. . & so on & etc.. And so much so on... etc.. & so much, etc, & etc., And so, etc
00:00:11.000One is Keith Hilton, an American law professor, and one of the top tort scholars.
00:00:15.000He is currently the William Fairfield Warren Distinguished Professor at Boston University Law School, a prolific scholar, widely recognized for his work across a total spectrum of topics in law economics.
00:00:31.000Hilton has published five books and more than 100 articles in numerous law and economic journals.
00:00:36.000And Kevin Nathaniel is a celebrated world music artist who was toured internationally but was forced into becoming a medical freedom activist in New York City.
00:00:45.000When the COVID crisis shut down the entire entertainment industry, Kevin connected and worked with New York City activists, resisting lockdowns and mandates, including the New York Freedom Rally, Teachers for Choice, and Children's Health Defense.
00:00:59.000These two twin brothers took radically different paths in life, but today find themselves converging in agreement with many of the things that we've been fighting for in this campaign.
00:02:16.000I was in Kyoto only a couple of hours ago.
00:02:20.000Because I was there, I guess it was about six months ago, Cheryl and I. And over to Kyoto, we stayed 10 days there because I got surgery there on my throat.
00:02:31.000Special surgery they invented in Kyoto.
00:02:34.000That's the only place that they do it.
00:02:51.000As we know, there's a picture that surfaced of my father with Bobby Kennedy Sr., and it's from a picture from the Jefferson Jackson dinners from 1967 in Detroit, in which Bobby Kennedy came to Detroit.
00:03:09.000My father at the time was very active in the Democratic Party.
00:03:13.000He was Vice Chairman of the Michigan Democratic Party.
00:03:17.000He was doing a lot of work in politics.
00:03:19.000Of course, he was in constant contact with the heavy hitters in the Democratic Party.
00:03:25.000So, of course, when Bobby Kennedy was coming through Detroit, he was spending time working with him, talking to him, I imagine going places wherever he was going to help and assist.
00:03:37.000And he was definitely a strong supporter of Bobby Kennedy in 67, and I delved into all the reasons why, and believe me, I know why he was a strong supporter of Bobby Kennedy in 67.
00:03:54.000Yeah, my dad was first as counsel in the Senate, but more importantly during his role, he was Attorney General of the United States, was leading the Kennedy administration's battle, civil rights battles in Alabama, Mississippi, and other parts of the country.
00:04:10.000And twice sent federal troops to integrate Ole Miss and the University of Alabama at Tuscaloosa.
00:04:18.000The first two Black students at the University of Alabama were Vivian Malone Jones and James Hood.
00:04:24.000And in fact, I was with the other day, I was with the children of some of those students, Malone and some of the other students who were, you know, who integrated at the University of Alabama.
00:05:45.000And part of it was sort of a, in a way, a rebellion to my father's constant pressure for me to be a lawyer like him, but in a way, a sort of a desire to find what was in my heart.
00:06:00.000And that effort to find what was in my heart led me on this path.
00:06:05.000And Keith, you took a more conventional path through...
00:06:08.000You could say it's more conventional, though I remember having a conversation with a colleague, and I think there were other people in conversation, and so I mentioned, well, my brother is a musician and artist, And here I am.
00:06:23.000I'm studying law and economics, writing in the area.
00:06:25.000And one person said, oh, wow, you guys went in such different paths.
00:06:30.000And another person said, well, no, actually, I think it's the same thing.
00:06:35.000So the other person, I guess, had, I think, the better answer.
00:06:39.000Because what I see myself as doing is, although I'm writing stuff about the law, antitrust law, tort law, when I'm working on something, it is not very different from, I hate to say it, an art project.
00:06:52.000I mean, it's like I have a canvas in front of me, and I'm thinking about the different things that I could say.
00:06:59.000And I'm concerned about a lot of the same things that an artist would be concerned about in producing an art project.
00:07:05.000So in some sense, we haven't done things that are that different.
00:07:09.000To some extent, we both, I guess, departed from what my father wanted, because my father wanted All of his sons to come practice law with him in Detroit.
00:07:40.000And he went on to become a lawyer and, you know, did business deals and, you know, worked at all sorts of litigation, even civil rights litigation, you know, criminal cases, civil cases.
00:07:53.000You know, many of his family members in Roman, Virginia were upset with what he did, were upset with his decision to leave the church because they thought that was such an important role that their family, that the whole family had been involved in.
00:08:07.000It was just an extreme departure from what was expected.
00:08:12.000I want to add, Keith, you're absolutely right.
00:08:14.000I remember at the funeral for our grandmother, there were several family members that criticized our father for his choice to go into law and business at the actual funeral.
00:08:29.000So yeah, I agree with what you're saying.
00:08:32.000In fact, I've said that to people too.
00:08:34.000I said, well, I chose the path of art, but Keith chose the path of going sort of one step further with the whole legal idea, with the whole idea, going into the theoretical realm of it.
00:08:50.000I think my father's growing up in the church had a big impact on his approach to the law, how he viewed the law, because he grew up in the black church.
00:08:59.000His father had worked in the railroads and then became a pastor.
00:09:04.000This was at a time where his father, my grandfather, had become a pastor.
00:09:08.000We weren't that far out of slavery days, maybe a generation at most.
00:09:13.000And so the moral messages that they were dealing with were of a very serious nature.
00:09:18.000The lessons they had to impart were very important.
00:09:21.000And I guess I had the sense, looking back, that the largely men of the church at that time felt that they were doing something extremely important.
00:09:29.000I could see how my grandfather would be upset with my dad's decision to leave that.
00:09:34.000Well, they also, I mean, he grew up in the height of Jim Crow because I was, you know, born in Virginia, raised there to live there until I was 13 years old.
00:10:31.000And of course, public transportation, public restrooms were all segregated.
00:10:36.000I, you know, I've told this story before.
00:10:39.000There was a Black man who worked for my family who had served in World War II during the Seabees.
00:10:46.000The Blacks weren't actually allowed to fight until the end of the war when Truman came in.
00:10:50.000But there is a lot of them serving in the military and other roles, including the construction brigades, the Seabees.
00:10:58.000And he served in the Pacific, which was for hazardous duty, building airstrips as they jumped across through the Japanese islands toward the mainland of Japan.
00:11:08.000He's about 6'5", incredibly brilliant man and dignified.
00:11:14.000And but when I started hunting and fishing when I was very, very young, and he'd drive me across the state, and I would have to go into the restaurants and diners, buy the food for both of us, we would eat it in the car.
00:11:26.000He asked me one day to buy shoes for him, because he wasn't allowed into the shoe store.
00:11:32.000So I went in and picked up the shoes, then he tried them on the curb on the sidewalk.
00:11:36.000And if they didn't fit him, that was too bad.
00:11:38.000But anyway, you know, your dad grew up in Virginia at that same time or lived during that same time.
00:11:45.000And I'm sure that that was, you know, one of the central gravities of his life.
00:11:59.000What you're saying is that, oh, yeah, just to tell you one of the stories my father told me about when he had first day In college, he met my mother at Talladega College.
00:12:11.000The first day they landed in college, the Ku Klux Klan.
00:12:15.000Now, Talladega College was a Black college.
00:12:42.000And I want to mention, too, that shortly after he got out of college, he told me a story about him going out with my uncle, whose name was Pop Foster, and they had had some drinks and they sat on a stoop.
00:12:54.000This was somewhere in Alabama or Georgia.
00:12:59.000And it was at night and they saw a cop car pull up and they saw the cops get out of the car and they looked at each other and literally said goodbye to each other because it was commonly known that if you were Black Caught out at night.
00:13:17.000And if you were sitting by yourself in some southern towns, that if the cops pulled up on you at night, you might not be going home.
00:13:26.000It was a very serious time that he grew up in that way.
00:13:29.000I want to take that and thread that to a story that I heard about your father and your uncle Going to get Martin Luther King out of jail in, I believe, 60, it was before your uncle was elected president, and that Martin Luther King had been arrested and given a very stiff sentence, a stiff prison sentence.
00:13:55.000And your father and your uncle literally ran To get Martin Luther King out of jail.
00:14:03.000And really, for someone to hear that and read it in Google, you don't really realize the environment that was happening.
00:14:10.000You don't realize the gravity of what happens when Martin Luther King was given a stiff prison sentence at that time in the South.
00:14:19.000The gravity of it is he might not be coming out of that sentence.
00:14:24.000So, and I believe that's why your father and your uncle ran to get him out.
00:14:29.000This is before many of the, you know, much of the work that Martin Luther King was able to really do after that time.
00:14:37.000He did a lot of it while your uncle was president, but they ran to get him out.
00:14:43.000When he was given that really harsh six-month sentence, which probably would have meant chain gang.
00:14:51.000Let me give you an addendum to that story.
00:14:56.000My father grew up in Boston and then in Brookline, and they just didn't have any contact with black people and had no knowledge of the civil rights movement.
00:15:08.000When he played football at Harvard, there was a black member of the team.
00:15:12.000And when they toured in some of the Southern states, he was not allowed to stay at the same hotel.
00:15:17.000And my father at that time protested that and made it so that they would all go to hotels that they all could stay in.
00:15:25.000And then when my father was at University of Virginia, he invited Ralph Bunch, who was a secretary of the United Nations and was famous for international leader who had been flirted with the Communist Party.
00:15:39.000He invited him to speak at the University of Virginia.
00:15:41.000And at that time, it was illegal to have integrated crowds in Virginia.
00:15:47.000And Ralph Bunch, when he got there, he stayed with my father in his house.
00:15:52.000The Klan protested outside and burned a cross outside their house.
00:15:56.000And my father and mother just got married.
00:15:59.000And this is the first that they'd seen of that.
00:16:09.000He wrote a brief and he organized a student petition and they ended up It was the first integrated group in the University of Virginia, but still, when he was running, it was not an issue that was prominent on his mind.
00:16:22.000He was concerned with the mafia and a bunch of other issues that he'd been with.
00:16:26.000And then Coretta King called And said, Martin is in prison in Alabama.
00:16:37.000And like you said, I think they came in a six month sentence.
00:16:40.000And Coretta was scared that it being Alabama, he might not come out of the prison alive, the jail alive.
00:16:47.000And she asked my uncle to intervene and ended up with my father, who was running his campaign, his campaign manager.
00:16:54.000And my father at first said, the first voice in him was the political voice that said, it's better not to get involved with this issue because we'll lose the solid Democratic vote in the South.
00:17:11.000He got the message when he was at Hickory Hill, which was about 10 minutes from National Airport, which is now Reagan Airport.
00:17:18.000And he got in the car and he started driving to airport and he started thinking about it.
00:17:25.000And it was, it started irritating him.
00:17:28.000Just the part of it that was the bullying part, because he hated bullies.
00:17:33.000And when he got to the airport, he had flipped and he went to the payphone and put a bunch of times in and he got the White House where he got the Senate, you know, the Senate switchboard to get that sheriff on the phone.
00:17:49.000And then he read that sheriff the riot act saying, you know, my brother's going to be president and you better make sure that nothing happens to Dr.
00:18:00.000And the public didn't find out about it, but Coretta knew about it.
00:18:04.000And Daddy King, who was Martin's father, who was a preacher himself, very influential in the Black movement.
00:18:12.000And it's one of the reasons that my uncle won the Black vote, which put him over the edge in 1960.
00:18:18.000He had the lowest margin, the slimmest margin he won of any president in history.
00:18:24.000And it was Black votes in the South that put him over.
00:18:27.000I was going to just add as a footnote about my father's experience, because it's connected to all these things, that he grew up in Virginia, Ronald, Virginia.
00:18:36.000He could not go to UVA at the time, because UVA was a white institution.
00:18:45.000And so he had the experience of Living in Boston and going to BU and then going home to Virginia to segregated train stations, segregated drinking fountains, all the things that, you know, you're talking about.
00:19:31.000Detroit was a boomtown, but Detroit in many ways was, and I use this word clearly knowing that it's a delicate word to use, but in many ways it was a mecca for Black people all throughout the United States.
00:19:45.000That's where Motown Records was there.
00:19:48.000Yes, and it was also a place in which the Klan was not in full swing.
00:19:57.000And even on my mother's side, there were relatives, my mother's uncle, that left the South to come to Detroit because they were threatened by the Klan.
00:20:13.000He brought a lawsuit to enjoin the, I think, Attorney General of Georgia from barring teachers who were part of members of the NAACP from working as teachers.
00:20:27.000He enjoined the Attorney General of Georgia, and he immediately got phone calls from the Klan saying, you have 24 hours to get out of here.
00:21:08.000A lot of families got divided, you know.
00:21:12.000I joke about this all the time, but so Kevin and I were in touch with each other a lot.
00:21:17.000And I remember Kevin telling me very early during the COVID lockdown period, very early, All of the stuff about this is a lab leak out of a, you know, a lab in China.
00:22:37.000Yeah, what I just wanted to say was that the connection is very clear to me, actually your work too, because I feel like your father was so strongly connected to the civil rights movement that actually the civil rights movement and a lot of this actually flowed into a lot of exploitation.
00:22:59.000And oppression flows into what we call corporate capture.
00:23:03.000And so really, I feel like you are a direct progression of your father's work.
00:23:09.000Some people, I don't know if they see that that way, but I see your work as a direct progression.
00:23:30.000You know, what I would want to spend my time on is making sure that we start rebuilding equity in Black communities, which have been systematically stripped out of African-American communities during the 2000s, by many, many, by redlining, which have been systematically stripped out of African-American communities during the 2000s, by many, many, by redlining, by, you know, just
00:23:54.000You know, like Wall Street is one example, systematically closed, but the redlining, 2008 mortgage crisis, which, you know, those exotic instruments were tried out first in the Black communities.
00:24:07.000And, you know, the Black communities that did have a lot of equity in their homes in Harlem and Bedstein around the country lost that equity at that time.
00:24:17.000And then COVID, 41% of Black-owned businesses will never reopen, and a lot of them had Three generations of equity in them.
00:24:27.000If you don't own a home, if you've got a whole community that doesn't have a high home ownership, they have no access to capital.
00:24:35.000A lot of small businesses will mortgage their home and get enough money to start a business, but if you don't have access to capital, you can't start a business.
00:24:45.000You know, later in my father's life, a lot of his activity was in the banking industry and basically small business banking.
00:24:52.000You know, that's a major issue there because the way banking regulation has worked, it sort of choked off or choked out a lot of the small businesses, small banks that might have dealt with black owned businesses in the cities.
00:25:04.000You know, that avenue of economic growth has sort of been made much more difficult to work nowadays.
00:25:10.000And so that would be an ideal area for change, for trying to change the banking regulations so that small community banks with a focus on development and Black urban neighborhoods could actually thrive because they have the information on who the people are who are starting businesses, What kind of risks are involved in lending to them?
00:25:30.000And that information isn't there, isn't locked up in the big banks at all.
00:25:33.000The big banks, they have all their algorithms and they don't have that kind of information.
00:25:37.000So that would be a major way in which we could change things, which would go in the direction No, I agree.
00:25:50.000That and education are the two things we just need to flood right now with effort, with money, with innovation to try to figure out how to...
00:26:02.000You're never going to get rid of the efforts to get rid of, you know, racism is kind of ingrained in human behavior.
00:26:10.000Tribalism of all kinds are always looking for differences in each other.
00:26:15.000And it's always going to be part of the human society.
00:26:18.000So what you want to do is equip people and make them strong and confident.
00:26:23.000Young Black men and women should have the strength and confidence and know that they're going to run into these kind of impediments in their lives, but that they have opportunities That they have wealth and equity.
00:26:36.000That's a base that provides them a strong base so they can go forth in the world and encounter all of these difficulties and the biases or whatever impediments that all of us have as human beings and overcome them.
00:26:49.000But if you don't have a good education to start with, you're not going to be able to do that.
00:26:54.000And if you don't have that access to capital, you can't do it.
00:26:59.000And the way that the Fed operates with quantitative easing that floods the economy with money and then strips it out and encourages people to borrow and to put their assets on the line and then makes money hard, makes money more expensive, and then everybody goes bankrupt and the big industry and then everybody goes bankrupt and the big industry comes in or the big BlackRock, State Street Vanguard come in and
00:27:47.000They're all now going bankrupt because they cannot get access to capital from the little banks because the little banks, which are the only ones that will loan to black people, they now, because the The price of money is so high that with the interest rates are up at 7%.
00:28:02.000So their treasury bills, which are their reserves, have been severely diminished in value.
00:28:09.000And the banking rules don't allow them to lend or make it very hazardous for them to lend when their reserves are low.
00:28:19.000And this one woman who survived, she has an 80-year-old sausage business that provides employees.
00:28:26.000And, you know, and pride for this community.
00:28:29.000She needs some capital to change some of the machinery that she was using, and she cannot get access to capital, so she's closing the business.
00:28:36.000And all of them had stories like that, that we just can't, you know, we have a thriving business, but we cannot, as Black Americans, cannot get access to capital because The big banks won't want it to us because they don't care about small business and they don't want a loan in our neighborhood.
00:28:53.000And the little banks that were the only ones that would make capital available, you know, now are being destroyed through the high interest rates.
00:29:02.000Through high interest rates or through regulations that they really can't manage to deal with.
00:29:07.000I mean, what do you think the path forward is?
00:29:18.000Okay, so for priorities, well, what issue would you want to start with, with priorities?
00:29:23.000I mean, you know what, if you were president, what would you do to reinvigorate Black communities around this country?
00:29:31.000Well, first you mentioned education, which I agree with you completely.
00:29:36.000And I'd be open to all sorts of suggestions.
00:29:38.000I happen to be a big fan of school choice.
00:29:40.000I have to say that people ought to have the freedom, ought to have the same freedoms that wealthy people have to go to whatever school they want to.
00:29:48.000In fact, there's a very interesting video where Milton Friedman is making that pitch to an audience in Harlem.
00:29:54.000And it's kind of amazing how that whole event goes down.
00:29:58.000I think that's sort of a base, a sort of starting point.
00:30:01.000School choice strikes me as a very important factor in there, both to give people options And also to put pressure on the public schools to improve because they, you know, they should improve if they see they are at risk of losing funding through students choosing other places.
00:30:19.000And also, I think there's a matter of freedom.
00:30:20.000You know, I think there are all these complaints about what's being taught in the schools nowadays.
00:30:26.000And, you know, as long as you have certain things that you expect of students that, you know, you can implement it through exams, then students ought to be free to sort of learn the things that they think They want to learn, their parents want them to learn, subject to the requirement that they meet competency exams in certain areas, English, math, etc.
00:30:44.000But subject to that requirement, if you want to study, if you want to go to a school that emphasizes a particular thing, you want to go to a school that emphasizes religion, you know, if you want to do that, then we ought to allow these things.
00:30:57.000But the big objection is that you're going to be robbing the public schools that, you know, badly need this money, that you're going to be robbing them of their revenues.
00:31:43.000And I think that anything that would put pressure on them to actually try to improve the situation and make it more of an educational environment.
00:31:52.000Because right now, I've been into some of these public schools and I've seen some very kind of horrific situations.
00:31:59.000So yeah, I have to agree with you on that.
00:32:02.000The Institution of Examinations, I mean, so that was one of the innovations here in Massachusetts.
00:32:10.000New York has had its regents exams for some time.
00:32:14.000And some people don't like examinations.
00:32:17.000On the other hand, they're a good check on making sure the schools are doing their jobs.
00:32:21.000And I don't see any other way around that other than to have students.
00:32:25.000You want the examinations to be rigorous enough that they would force the schools to educate the students.
00:32:32.000And what was your reaction to the Harvard case, the affirmative action case?
00:32:38.000Well, I disagreed with the majority because, and maybe I'll just admit, I'm a good friend of David Evans, who was running, you could say he was running Affirmative Action at Harvard for 50 years.
00:34:29.000Well, okay, let's take the case that everyone seems to agree with.
00:34:32.000So many of the people who oppose affirmative action have said things like, Take the case of a kid from Appalachia whose parents are in bad shape.
00:34:46.000A white kid from Appalachia who pulls himself up by his bootstraps and gets himself into a position where he can get into Harvard or look like he can compete in Harvard.
00:34:54.000Harvard takes him, which of course happens all the time.
00:35:06.000And I think all of the people who are in favor of using race into account are simply saying, look, race is an important statistic in making an inference about the difficulties that someone has overcome to get to that stage.
00:35:24.000It's often pretty darn good in helping you I figured that out.
00:35:29.000And we could talk about different ways.
00:35:31.000You know, one is race combined with zip code.
00:35:34.000And you know as well as I that there are plenty of zip codes where students are going to come out with a big disadvantage or have to labor under a big disadvantage to get themselves at a level where they're getting into the Ivy League schools.
00:35:50.000But then I guess the position of a Justice Roberts would be, okay, fine, that's just the zip code.
00:35:57.000But if someone grows up in the suburbs, it's a black kid who grows up in the lily white suburbs, why would you take race into account in that case?
00:36:07.000And here I would say, sure, there is a weaker argument for taking race into account.
00:36:14.000But even then, a lot of the black kids who've grown up in the lily white suburbs have dealt with Obstacles that their white counterparts haven't dealt with.
00:36:38.000He's had a few of his high school teachers who would say this kid would have gotten into any college he applied to, even if his color were green or blue or whatever.
00:36:46.000So he's a good case to talk about because I don't think there's an argument in his case that he benefited from any kind of relaxed policy or anything like that.
00:36:55.000I think he would have gotten in whatever color he was.
00:36:58.000But he doesn't even know some of the things that happened.
00:37:02.000There was a teacher in his grade school.
00:37:05.000I pulled him aside and tried to teach him some extra math one time.
00:37:09.000He came in and tried to use that sort of new math in a class.
00:37:13.000A teacher of his discovered that and just went nuts about it.
00:37:18.000Just went nuts that His dad would try to teach him some math that wasn't in the curriculum.
00:37:25.000Now, I don't know if that had anything to do with race, but it certainly made me wonder about it because I did wonder, well, if this had been a white kid and a white father and the teacher discovered that the dad had taught the son some additional math, would she have gone berserk in the way that she did?
00:37:43.000She went nuts and she threatened to remove him from an advanced math class that he was in.
00:37:52.000But I'm just offering that as one example of the sorts of things that happen that in many cases are correlated with race.
00:37:59.000That's why, although the question is how much weight you give to it, it's certainly a relevant statistic in determining what kind of obstacles people have to deal with and overcome.
00:38:09.000What the Supreme Court said in the case, which is, oh, you can talk about it in your essay.
00:38:14.000It's not a solution because a lot of these kids are young kids who don't even know What sort of obstacles they've overcome.
00:38:20.000You know, it's only the obvious cases where they would know that.
00:38:24.000So I would say that, you know, again, I think this is a fairly conservative argument because I'm saying whatever you think is right about the Appalachian case, you can certainly make that argument using race instead of Appalachian because that's just the reality.
00:38:40.000I think you'd agree yourself that race is still a relevant statistic in inferring whether someone has had to put up with Yeah, I think one of the most interesting arguments is the legacy arguments, which I don't know how much of a Harlan's class gets because they had a legacy there, meaning they had an ancestor there.
00:39:04.000But, you know, legacies, I would say, are probably 99.9% white.
00:39:11.000Well, you have legacies, you have the team, the sports teams that are recruiting and taking in a fair amount of students and those aren't the minority students who are taking, for the most part, who are taking advantage of that because you have a ton of teams and they're all recruiting their people.
00:39:26.000So legacies, sports teams, you have all sorts of ways in which sort of special advantages are given to some applicants.
00:39:33.000And if you in the end, if you ask, you know, how important is this issue?
00:39:39.000I mean, it's a molehill of a problem because there's so few cases, you know, the sort of the vast majority of black students in Harvard today are quite competent and would get in affirmative action or not.
00:39:52.000And so we're talking about a relatively small, small, surgically applied tool.
00:39:59.000The Roberts opinion sort of makes it sound like it was a check the box thing where, you know, if you just check the box and said you're black, you got in, which is just an absolute falsehood.
00:40:09.000And the other absolute falsehood that the Roberts opinion relies on is a theory that race is kind of irrelevant in making an inference about the obstacles that someone deals with in today's world.