In this episode, I introduce two men who have dedicated their lives to peace and understanding between Israel and the Palestinians: Palestinian educator and peace activist Mahmoud Deen Daoudi and Israeli academic Yossi Klein Halibi. Both men have devoted their lives and careers to de-escalating the conflict, and by encouraging us all at our deep religious and spiritual cores, to find the best angels, the best version of ourselves. They are two of the most respected and revered scholars in Israel, and both have dedicated themselves to finding a path to peace between the Jewish and Palestinian people. I hope you enjoy listening to this episode and that it encourages you to do the same. Thank you for listening and share it with a friend or family member who needs to hear this. I am very excited about this podcast, and can t wait to hear back from you! Peace, Blessings, Cheers, Ephraim and Chassidus. -Evan Halibi and Efraim Deen - Letters to My Palestinian Neighbor: Letters To My Palestinian Neighbors: A Book of the Year Awards: A Call to My Neighbor, Thank You, Letters to my Palestinian Neighbour: A Guide to My Neighbour. A Book Of The Year Award Winner: Like Dreamers: A Journey Through My Father's Life in the Mideast, a Book Of the Year Award Nominee, I Am Yours Truly, by Yosha Halevi, a Senior Fellow at the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem, a book of the Jewish Book Council, and the author of Like Dreamer, a memoir about his father's life and his experience in the Middle East and his journey to find peace in the mideast. Efaelah, a work of love and understanding in the Land of the land of the Holy Land, Yoshev Halevi. Dr. Yehoshivi, a Palestinian-born Israeli-American, and an Israeli-born American-born Palestinian. . Professor Yehudis Deen, a writer, a professor, and a friend of the late Yitzchakim, a researcher, an activist, an author, a humanist, an academic, a peace activist, a poet, and poet, a scholar, a father, a student, a friend, a philosopher, a historian, a lawyer, a man, a woman, a thinker, a good friend, an intellectual, a musician, a story teller, an artist, a child, a lover, a dreamer, and more.
00:00:04.000Of all the podcasts that I've done throughout my history on this media, there's nothing that I've been more excited about.
00:00:13.000I have today two men who I enormously, immensely admired, two men who are from different spheres in the Israeli-Palestine debate, and two men who have I've spent there at least many of the last years trying to find common ground and a path to peace between Israel and the Palestinian people.
00:00:38.000I'm going to begin by introducing Professor Mohamed Dejani Daoudi, a Palestinian educator and peace activist.
00:00:46.000Professor Tajani gained international recognition for his work in helping to raise Palestinian awareness concerning the Holocaust through a variety of media.
00:00:57.000He has also been active in forming relationships with Jewish and Christian religious leaders, peace activists, and others to spread the Wasatia message of understanding.
00:01:09.000Wasatia is the name of his NGO. And it means moderation.
00:02:10.000It's one of Israel's most powerful attempts to reach beyond the wall that separates Israelis and Palestinians and into the heart of, quote, the enemy.
00:02:21.000I'm going to read a short passage from the book at the beginning.
00:02:25.000I call you neighbor because I don't know your name or anything personal about you.
00:02:30.000Given our circumstances, neighbor might be too casual a word to describe a relationship.
00:02:36.000We are intruders into each other's dream, violators of each other's sense of a home.
00:02:42.000We are incarnations of each other's worst historical neighbors.
00:02:47.000In a series of these letters, Yossi Klein Halibink explained what motivated him to leave his native New York in his 20s and move to Israel to participate in the drama of Of the renewal of the Jewish homeland, which he is committed to see succeed as a morally responsible democratic nation in the Mideast.
00:03:11.000This is the first attempt by an Israeli author to directly address his Palestinian neighbors and describe how the conflict appears through Israeli eyes.
00:03:21.000Alevi untangles the ideological and emotional knots that have defined the conflict for nearly a century.
00:03:32.000It's a beautiful book, and I urge everybody to read it.
00:03:35.000Both of these gentlemen have devoted their lives to de-escalating this conflict and by encouraging us all at our deep religious and spiritual cores To find the best angels, the best version of ourselves.
00:03:52.000I want to start with a little introduction to my background of assumptions.
00:03:58.000A Palestinian man was convicted of the murder of my father, and indeed confessed to it at that time.
00:04:06.000At that time in 1968 my family signed a letter to Judge Walker asking him not to give the death penalty to Sirhan Sirhan.
00:04:18.000At that time we all believed Sirhan had been responsible for my father's death.
00:04:24.000A couple of years later my brother was hijacked The Black September group, a Palestinian terrorist group, his plane was diverted to a landing strip in the desert in Yemen.
00:04:38.000The Palestinian leadership of that group demanded the release of Sirhan Sirhan from prison.
00:04:46.000The plane eventually was blown up and it was burned.
00:04:55.000And many, many years later, I read my father's autopsy report and found other evidence that Sirhan Sirhan, although he clearly participated, In the ambush that killed my father and fired shots at my father, his bullets were not the ones that killed my father.
00:05:18.000I asked if I could visit him in prison, and I did so.
00:05:24.000The parole board had said that although they believed he killed my father, that he was of no harm to society.
00:05:31.000For two reasons, I've spent several years Fighting for Sir Ann's release.
00:05:39.000One, because he served 50 years, and he no longer posed a threat to society.
00:05:47.000And I believe my father, who was a big advocate for bail reform, And payroll would want this person out of jail.
00:05:56.000And then also because I believe that he was wrongly convicted of murder.
00:06:02.000But either one of those reasons is sufficient for me to go to his aid.
00:06:07.000And the day that I spent reaching out to him and understanding how he experienced those events, And the events of the last 50 years took away, removed the last kind of resentments and bitterness that I had toward him for participating in my father's murder.
00:06:37.000They're like swallowing poison and hoping someone else will die.
00:06:42.000And there's no cauldron of resentments that is larger, more volatile, more longer-lived.
00:06:50.000And the tension between Jews and Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims in the Mideast.
00:06:58.000And I wanted to invite these two gentlemen here because I think all of us are watching what's happening with horror today in Gaza.
00:07:10.000And I want to begin and we need to understand what is the path to peace.
00:07:15.000We know that the strategy of killing all of your enemies will never work.
00:07:20.000We know that violence begets violence, that zealotry begets zealotry, that the zealots on both sides feed on each other and narrow that center that we need to enlarge if we're going to actually My own bias, which I'm going to reveal, is based upon not any intrinsic loyalty to one side or another.
00:07:47.000I don't believe one side or another is more deserving than the other, but because of my study of history, I believe that the Israelis have repeatedly, in good faith, offered a peace deal That would create a Palestinian state.
00:08:02.000They did this in 1937, in 1947, in 1967, in 1973, in 1993, in 2000, and in 2008.
00:08:16.000And that the answer to that In each case was violence and war.
00:08:23.000And I believe that to the center of my core.
00:08:26.000I believe it because I believe that I applied critical thinking and careful analysis to the issue.
00:08:32.000But I also understand that there's a counter-narrative.
00:08:36.000Where there's a whole group of people on the other side who believe something entirely different.
00:08:42.000And that clash of narratives is a thousand years old.
00:08:46.000And it's one of the oldest sources of hatred in human history.
00:08:53.000Tribalism is, we're biologically hardwired for tribalism, and there is no more toxic forms of tribalism than anti-Semitism and anti-Muslim.
00:09:04.000And in the Mideast today, those two hatreds are threatening to destroy and destabilize our entire globe.
00:09:13.000And we need to all be thinking about how to make sacrifices of our own assumptions.
00:09:21.000How to put them aside and find a common ground with people that we've been taught to or we've learned to disbelieve or not like.
00:09:32.000So I want to start by opening the floor to Yossi Halibi, who I have spoken to before.
00:09:40.000Mohammed, I've never met you, and I don't believe that either of you have ever met each other in person.
00:10:00.000Well, first of all, Bobby, I'm so moved to meet you and to be with you, and especially to hear how you approach this conflict and the personal dimension.
00:10:14.000Of course, I wondered When we first talked about how you deal with the fact that Sirhan Sirhan is in jail for your father's death, and I hadn't known the follow-up on that.
00:10:36.000The generosity of spirit that you bring to this is exactly the right background.
00:10:44.000It's the right ground for us to begin this conversation.
00:10:48.000And I have to tell you, I'm so deeply moved by what you said and how you said it.
00:13:18.000In the most precise meaning of the word, the intention was to terrorize us, to flee this land.
00:13:26.000And Hamas and our enemies generally always tend to underestimate both the Jewish attachment to this land and our resolve.
00:13:37.000And what we're experiencing now in this terrible war, This brutal war is the realization by almost every Israeli, left, right, and center, that in the face of this evil, we have no choice but to fight and to try to uproot it, I believe, ultimately for the sake of peace.
00:14:01.000If Hamas remains on the border, in charge of Gaza, there will never be peace.
00:15:46.000Also, I was shocked when your father was shot by a Palestinian.
00:15:53.000At that time, it was extremely shocking for us because we felt that we loved the Kennedys and we loved Robert and we hoped that he will Fill in the gap that John left, and then suddenly he's not there.
00:16:14.000And we felt a lot of sympathy, even as Palestinians.
00:16:18.000And at the same time, we felt anger because we thought it will not help the Palestinian cause.
00:16:28.000On the contrary, it will generate hatred for the Palestinians and their cause, which it did, actually.
00:16:41.000This is the first time, by the way, I hear the narrative that you said about Sirhan not being the main assassin of Kennedy, and I'm glad that he was not.
00:16:56.000And I hope that the message of forgiveness that you showed could...
00:17:05.000Also, we spread because now when I talk to my Palestinian people about forgiveness, they are totally against it and they think that this is softness and this is surrendering.
00:17:22.000And on the contrary, my argument is God forgives you and you seek God's forgiveness.
00:17:29.000So why don't you feel that if you want God's forgiveness, why can't you offer your forgiveness for somebody else, for your human being?
00:17:39.000And this is part of God's message, that you will be able to forgive.
00:17:45.000And I feel that this is very important, what you said about forgiveness and about peace, and it is part of our message of peace and reconciliation.
00:17:57.000And that's why I felt also when Yossi wrote his book, and the first time I looked at the title before opening the pages for the book, I love the word neighbor, that an Israeli calling me a neighbor.
00:18:16.000He's recognizing me as a Palestinian, as a human being.
00:18:28.000And in this way, it was very important for me that he was using the word neighbor, which is, in our culture, It is a very warm word.
00:18:40.000When you talk to others, if you call them neighbors, then that's a very warm address.
00:18:48.000The Prophet Muhammad said, be good to your neighbor, even to the seventh neighbor.
00:18:55.000And so in this way, we learn that our neighbor is like a relative to us.
00:19:02.000He is even sometimes more than a relative because he's close to you and your relative might be away from you.
00:19:10.000So that word, I think, was very important to use and in doing so, Yossi was able to cross the cement wall that separates our people.
00:19:23.000And one of my students, who was a young woman in Nablus, when she read in Arabic the book, she insisted on writing him a response to that book.
00:19:38.000And her letter was more than 70 pages that she responded.
00:19:44.000And I translated it to Yossi to English.
00:19:48.000And even till now, she keeps telling me Will Yossi be responding to me?
00:19:56.000How did he feel about it, about my letter?
00:20:00.000And so I think it is very important that when we want to build bridges, And words can be important what words we use.
00:20:13.000And I think that this effort by Yossi to jump over the wall that was built by people who do not want us really to have peace and want to actually, like Yossi said, they want to scare the other people.
00:20:34.000And I will add from my side that we feel the same also against those in power or those who are extremists, because as there are extremists on the Palestinian side, there are extremists on the Israeli side.
00:20:54.000And our struggle, the challenges, is to empower moderation on both sides and empower the moderates, the moderate camp on both sides.
00:21:07.000And that's why we want to find joint values, joint ideas together and make To make religion to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.
00:21:27.000And to make also, to build up bridges between people so that we can move on.
00:21:34.000And hopefully that we are planting now, in the midst of this conflict, by this conversation, by this podcast, we are building seeds of peace.
00:21:47.000Hopefully that in the day after those seeds of peace will blossom into flowers and make people actually see each other not as enemies, not as Animals or as devils, but rather as human beings.
00:22:06.000And in this way to cross over and see the human being in the other and let the good in the other come out so that we can have, we can move.
00:22:18.000from being heart of stone to heart of flesh and in this way we are able to love each other and to build a future for our children where our children can live in peace rather now we are living in this violent war and before it and after it and that's why we are hoping that our children instead of Leaving them the heritage of
00:22:48.000conflict, to leave them the heritage of peace.
00:22:52.000Yes, these days are very hard, but we will not allow the extremists to win.
00:22:59.000Because if we are traumatized, if we feel sad, if we feel enemy hatred, enmity, then the enemy has won.
00:23:11.000And so that's where we want to cross this barrier and be able to move on to finding peace among our people.
00:23:22.000I want to make one comment on one of your historical observations about how the impact of my uncle's death Affected people in your community.
00:23:31.000It's very well known to people that my family has a strong relationship with Israel.
00:23:36.000My uncle John Kennedy was there in 1931.
00:23:40.000My father was in Israel during the war in 1948 covering it for the Boston newspapers.
00:23:48.000During the Eisenhower administration, relationships with Israel cooled.
00:23:53.000It was Truman who was a Democrat who was the first to recognize Israel.
00:23:57.000But during the Kennedy administration, our relationship warmed enormously.
00:24:03.000And then my father, my uncle, We're the architects of the exodus of Soviet Jewry from the Soviet Union, where they were being oppressed and abused, to the United States and to Israel.
00:24:16.000And our families had a long, long relationship.
00:24:19.000We had the same kind of relationship with the Arab world.
00:24:23.000And that began, my uncle was on the African subcommittee in the United States Senate.
00:24:29.000My uncle, John Kennedy, when he was a senator, he made a famous speech in 1956 about Algeria specifically, but about all of the Arab countries demanding that they be given their sovereignty and that the colonial powers leave Arabia to its own devices and to assist in every way possible.
00:24:51.000In making the Arabs the sovereigns of their own lands and not of colonial powers.
00:24:57.000And that speech earned him enmity within the Democratic Party.
00:25:00.000He was openly condemned by Adlai Stevenson, who ran for president that year.
00:25:06.000By the Democratic left, by the Republicans, by Rockefeller, Goldwater, Richard Nixon, they all said, you can't talk about the colonial powers.
00:25:15.000Those are European bulwarks against the Soviet Union.
00:25:19.000They will rely for their wealth on those Arab countries, and we have to leave them alone and not talk about it.
00:25:26.000My uncle said, no, that is inconsistent with American values.
00:25:30.000The Arabs should govern themselves, and Africans should govern Africa.
00:25:37.000And throughout my life, I've met many people from the Mid-East who actually have the Kennedy name and who remember that speech and have a great, great love for my family because of the history my family had of standing up for sovereignty of those nations in the Mid-East.
00:25:57.000And then I wanted to talk about the larger issue that both of you addressed, Which is that religion at its best is an expression of ethics, of high ethical conduct.
00:26:09.000But at its worst, It's just a masquerade for tribalism.
00:26:16.000The orthodoxies in the extreme, there's a very famous scholar in this country called David Lohr, L-O-E-H-R, and he's written about the evolution of orthodoxies, and he said that the orthodoxies of every religion have more in common with each other than they do with the underlying religion, and that every religion at its best Is it striving for ethics, for truth, for justice, for love?
00:26:43.000And at its worst, it just becomes a methodology, a weaponized methodology for organizing tribal impulses.
00:26:52.000Our worst most Most atavistic impulses.
00:26:57.000I know you've thought about that, because during the Middle Ages, Islam was the most enlightened religion on the planet.
00:27:16.000Francis of Assisi to join his court, sort of one of the key Christian leaders at that time.
00:27:23.000And when Francis refused, he gave me a safe passage, a seal that guaranteed him the safe passage throughout the Arab lands.
00:27:31.000His court was a center for intellectual achievement, for architecture, for poetry, for mathematics, for every kind of scientific achievement, and tolerance.
00:27:43.000It was the place during the During the Crusades, the Jews flew to the Arab sides of the city, the Muslim-controlled parts of the city, and then 1492, etc., during the Spanish wars.
00:29:50.000Help each other and support each other and cooperate with each other and in this way we can bring the good in each other and that's how we should live.
00:30:02.000And our life will be much better than living in hatred and anger and wanting vengeance and hostility and violence.
00:30:14.000Yeah, I think the three of us have something in common, which is that we're all people of faith.
00:30:21.000We're all people who love the religions we come from.
00:30:27.000But what we also have in common is that we're acutely aware that Of the problematics of religion in its excess.
00:30:39.000When religion becomes a pretext for arrogance, for kind of spiritual arrogance, for not seeing the other.
00:30:53.000And we live in a remarkable moment in history when, really, for the first time, we have the opportunity to know each other's fates, to, first of all, in just the most mundane way, All of our sacred texts, the writings of our various mystical traditions are all available in translation.
00:31:20.000And this is something that's new in history, where you don't have to convert to another faith to experience something of its inner beauty.
00:31:32.000And that's on the one side, and that's the interfaith encounter, which is really something that has flowered over the last 50, 70 years.
00:31:44.000And that gives me tremendous hope for the future of humanity, for the future of religion.
00:31:51.000On the other side, we're seeing a retrenching of the most atavistic forms of And almost as a reaction to this opening, and Muhammad spoke of a flowering.
00:32:05.000And so we're living at a time of extreme dissonance.
00:32:10.000Between the hope of religion at its best, which for me is expressed by the interfaith encounter by a Catholic, a Muslim, and a Jew being able to sit together and actually speak about their spiritual commonalities.
00:32:27.000And on the other hand, we see religion at its worst.
00:32:31.000And it seems to me that the most important conflict Today is not between secularism and religion.
00:32:44.000The 21st century model is the internal conflict within each of our religions.
00:32:51.000As Muhammad says, between the language that Muhammad uses as moderates and extremists, I would use the language of those who are expansive, In their spiritual imagination, those who are religiously generous and curious about the other,
00:33:10.000and those who can only see their own religion, who can only see what they've been taught, how they've been raised, and have no curiosity, no empathy for the other.
00:33:23.000And that, to my mind, is really the negation of the Monotheism, which is oneness.
00:33:32.000The essence of monotheism is the one God.
00:33:36.000And what does it mean to believe in oneness?
00:33:40.000That we all exist within this unified being.
00:33:49.000And in the past, that was an insight that was really confined to mystics in our religious traditions.
00:33:58.000But I think today, that should be the language and the experience of any religious believer.
00:34:06.000You know, one of the things I remember David Lohr making this observation that all of our religions, in all of our religions, the creation story, has God making human beings in his own image.
00:34:20.000But what Lohr says in kind of the tribalism, the orthodox, the extreme orthodox models, humans make God in their own image and God becomes much smaller.
00:34:32.000And it's a God that shares our own bigotries, our hatreds, our prejudices, and the darkest sides of human nature, the tribal sides that evolved, that we were biologically hardwired into us during the 20,000 generations.
00:34:50.000Our race spent wandering the African span in these small tribal groups that had to have a strong leader, a strong male leader.
00:34:58.000Women were treated as chattels because you couldn't marry your sister, you had to trade her.
00:35:10.000That cemented unit cohesion, that religion would justify any behavior with people in the in-group and fault any behavior by people in the out-group.
00:35:22.000And you have all these characteristics that today are characteristics of religion at its worst, and that there was an evolution where religion became the highest expression of ethics, which is the opposite end, which is the end that I think we all try to aspire to.
00:35:39.000Which, as Professor Muhammad was saying, instructs us that we have to be disciplined and restrained and respond to hatred with love and respond to aggression with tenderness and to be able to listen and sit still and trust and have faith.
00:35:57.000Let's talk about, you know, the path to peace.
00:36:38.000I would just like to very briefly comment about what you were just saying, which is that for me, the challenge as a religious Jew is to stand within the tradition that I love to affirm my loyalty to this 4,000-year Jewish story,
00:36:55.000while at the same time opening myself to To the universal truths of other faiths, to the experiences of other people, certainly of my Palestinian neighbors in this case, and to try to find the balance between maintaining the dignity or the integrity of who I am as a Jew while being
00:37:31.000In terms of the Palestinian-Israeli tragedy, what attracted me to Muhammad and really what's been the basis of our friendship was a shared vision of how to resolve this conflict.
00:37:46.000That ultimately, this is a conflict about legitimacy, indigenousness, the right of two peoples in a very small land, To be at home, and that these are two peoples who belong in this land, and we need to stop trying to deny the right of the other to sovereignty, to their place in this land.
00:38:15.000And those around the world who try to deny the rights of one or the other of these two peoples are not doing us any favors.
00:38:26.000What we need is an affirmation that this is a conflict between two peoples, both of whom are right in their identity, both of whom are right to assert that they belong in Islam.
00:38:44.000Now, my understanding of why this conflict is so intractable is because both peoples between the river and the sea, the Jordan River and the Mediterranean, believe that the totality of this land belongs to them.
00:39:02.000And in principle, I believe that all of this land is the historic land of Israel.
00:39:11.000But I'm aware, keenly aware of the fact that my Palestinian neighbor believes that all of this land between the river and the sea is also Palestine.
00:39:21.000And so the tragedy is that this intimate geography holds two conflicting conceptual lands.
00:39:31.000These are two lands that actually are one land.
00:39:36.000And so the only way to honor the two maximalist claims of both peoples is to start off by saying, yes, all of this is the land of Israel and all of this is the land of Palestine.
00:39:53.000That's the tragedy and that's the challenge.
00:39:55.000And so we have one of two possibilities.
00:40:01.000If all of the land belongs to me and all of the land belongs to you, we can continue fighting for another hundred years, and one side or the other may completely vanquish the other.
00:40:12.000Or we can go back to the only solution that was ever on the table.
00:40:50.000It will resemble Iraq or Syria or Lebanon, countries that tore themselves apart.
00:40:57.000And so even though I think two states is a terrible solution, the worst option is to continue this way.
00:41:09.000And that's going to lead us to the abyss.
00:41:13.000So in the end, Mohammed and I came together with coming to this really, I think, from very similar places of realizing that the other side has a case.
00:41:29.000This is also something that attracted us to each other.
00:41:32.000We both have histories in our youth of being extreme, being extremists, being militants.
00:41:39.000And in our older age of coming to realize that life is more complicated and I can't live Only within my own reality, as if what happens to my neighbor is of no interest to me.
00:42:02.000If my neighbor is living in misery, I will live in misery, and the opposite is true as well.
00:42:11.000Let me tell the story that I like to tell to my students always when there is a conflict between them or they disagree with me or they disagree with one another.
00:42:27.000And this is exactly the case in my relation with Yossi.
00:42:35.000In which we disagree on things, but yet he is right and damn right because I love the story about the rabbi where two Jews came to him and they had a conflict between them.
00:42:52.000And the first said this side of the story and the rabbi said, you are right.
00:42:57.000And the second said this side of the story and the rabbi told them, you are right.
00:43:03.000And after they left, Rabbi's wife looks at them and asks, but Rabbi, how can they both be right?
00:43:10.000And to her, he says wisely, you are also right.
00:43:14.000So basically, I disagree with Yossi regarding the two-state solution.
00:43:48.000The Palestinians want a state in which they will give them their identity, which is Palestine.
00:43:56.000And so two states for each, a state for each recognized by one another, to me, will bring trust between both people.
00:44:07.000Eventually, when there is trust, maybe it will eventually lead to a confederacy between those two states or a one-state solution.
00:44:17.000But in the beginning, I believe the first stage, recognition of the state of Palestine is important because it's a fulfillment of the UN Resolution 1947.
00:44:32.000I also differ with Yossi regarding how we look at religion.
00:44:39.000I agree with him totally that in this age it is the difference within the religion itself because I, as promoter of the Wasatiyya, I'm calling for That Islam came to complement other religions, while there are extremists within Islam that say that Islam came to replace other religions.
00:45:06.000If you are a Christian, if you are a Jew, you will not be allowed to enter heaven.
00:45:12.000If you are not a Muslim, and so you have to change your religion to become a Muslim in order to enter heaven.
00:45:19.000And I totally disagree with this analysis within the Islamic extremists.
00:46:28.000And Jesus talked to his disciples, and the disciples said, we are Muslims.
00:46:34.000Long time before the message of Islam.
00:46:37.000And so in this way, Islam, when God says religion to God is Islam, it doesn't mean the Islamic religion, but rather Islam who believes in God, the one who submits himself to God, believes in the unity of God.
00:46:55.000And so one is exclusive and the other is inclusive.
00:46:59.000And that's where the interpretation of the moderate versus the extremist.
00:47:04.000And I believe in every religion there are people like that.
00:47:08.000That's why we call for the unity and interfaith within the moderate so that we can have an Abrahamic bridge that will hold an umbrella over us in order to move.
00:47:24.000And that's where I believe that when they chant From river to sea, the extremists will say Israel and the Palestinians will say Palestine will be free.
00:47:40.000But I would say from river to sea, both Palestine and Israel will be free from prejudice, from hate, from animosity, from violence.
00:47:55.000That's what we want these both communities to be free so that we can live together and we can be in peace together from river to sea.
00:48:12.000Let me play devil's advocate, because if you had two states right now, if you had an Israeli state that was roughly what Israel is today, and then another state that was made up of, at least in some part of the West Bank in Gaza, and the leadership of that was put to a vote, Assuming we're going to have a democracy.
00:48:37.000Today, it's highly likely that immediately Hamas would win any election, and Israel then would be fighting on two fronts, Hamas.
00:48:51.000This is what an Israeli would say now.
00:48:53.000This week, I had dinner with one of the leaders of The Muslim community in Michigan, which is one of our largest communities in the country.
00:49:03.000And he's somebody who's served in Congress and is a very popular, popular leader.
00:49:12.000And he said, you know, ultimately, a better solution would be a single state.
00:49:20.000And he pointed out that That Arabs, Palestinians, Muslims within Israel live in greater freedom and prosperity than Muslims almost anywhere else in the Mideast and have all the rights, that they have the rights to vote, that they serve on all the courts, that they serve in the Knesset, that they have freedom of speech, they have total freedom of religion.
00:49:46.000There's There's 28 nations in the Mideast, and 27 of them have official religions.
00:50:28.000First, I think being in the United States is very far from Jerusalem.
00:50:36.000And here, the people, if you ask people, when they talk about the one state, They talk about it, not a shared state where each will have the right to vote or the same equal rights, but they will think of it as one state without the other.
00:50:57.000And that's why, because here in Israel, if you ask an Israeli, he will tell you, I would like to have a Jewish state.
00:51:08.000Now, if the Arabs want to become a minority within that, that's fine.
00:51:13.000The Hamas people will tell you we would like to have an Islamic state.
00:51:18.000If the Jews would like to become a minority in it, that's fine.
00:51:24.000But actually, both of us are wrong in the sense that We need to have two states in this sense.
00:51:33.000Now, they will tell you that Hamas will win the elections.
00:51:37.000But my answer is why Hamas should run in the elections.
00:51:41.000Because, basically, when Palestinians will say Hamas is part of the Palestinian fabric, I will tell them, no, Hamas is an outsider.
00:51:52.000It's not part of the Palestinian fabric.
00:51:54.000First, in terms of religion, Hamas has its radical interpretation, which the majority of Palestinians do not believe in.
00:52:04.000And also, politically speaking, Hamas was against the peace accord, while the majority of the Palestinians, when the Oslo was signed, were for it.
00:52:19.000Now, why should Hamas be allowed to run in the elections if Hamas does not believe in the Oslo Accords that set up the elections?
00:52:31.000It's like asking a football team to play football without believing in the rules of the game.
00:52:41.000The rules of the game here were that the Oslo Accords brought peace, and that was the peace process.
00:52:49.000Now, it was a big mistake for the Israelis and the Americans to pressure the PA to allow Hamas to run in the elections in 2006, where actually they thought they will be domesticated.
00:53:04.000And so they allowed it to run without it accepting the rules of the game.
00:53:09.000And so accepting the peace process and accepting the recognition of Israel, on which the legislative council that was built, that's the framework in which this legislative council was built.
00:53:27.000So I don't believe that in any future elections, those who do not believe in the rules of the game, who do not believe in peace, who do not believe in the framework Of the Oslo Accords should run.
00:53:42.000And in this way, it was a mistake that should be rectified.
00:53:47.000And only those who believe in the rules of the game and to abide by these rules of the game and to join the peace process, then they are the ones who should run and should be part of the To rule, but to use religion and to use democracy as a ladder to become power.
00:54:12.000Hamas killed more than 1,000 Palestinians who were Fatah, who were their leaders and cadres.
00:54:20.000And so, because we allowed them to run in 2006 without having them agree to the rules of the game, and in 2007, they actually violated the rules by their coup d'etat to take over the legitimacy by becoming the illegitimate ruler of Gaza.
00:54:41.000And this is where we should go back to legitimacy.
00:54:46.000And the road to be taken is the peace road.
00:54:51.000Those who are not willing to join the peace process, they should not be part of the peace, of that peace.
00:55:00.000I think that there are two opposite trends happening in the Middle East today.
00:55:11.000On the one hand, there's the Abraham Accords.
00:55:15.000And the possibility, the tantalizing possibility, of the Saudis joining in the normalization process with Israel.
00:55:24.000And bear in mind that the Saudis are the custodians of Islam, of the holy places, and For the Saudis to end the state of war with Israel would be a transformative moment.
00:55:41.000And so on the one hand, there's the hope of a transformed Middle East, of normalization between Israel and large parts of the region.
00:55:51.000And on the other hand, there's the model of October 7th and the war in Gaza, which represents the unraveling of the Middle East.
00:56:01.000And these are the two poles that we're navigating.
00:56:04.000And in order to move toward a more normal Middle East, We need to be realistic about what we're facing, what the chances are.
00:56:18.000And so I believe with Muhammad that we need a two-state solution, but I see that as a vision, a vision that we need to be practically working toward, but it's going to be a long-term process, especially after October 7th, and for the reason that you brought up before, Bobby, which is that What October 7th said to Israelis was that we can't trust the Palestinian national movement at this moment.
00:56:47.000And if we were to withdraw from the West Bank, chances are that Hamas would fill the vacuum.
00:56:56.000And then we would be facing, on our most sensitive border, the border between the West Bank and greater Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, The kind of vulnerability that we were facing in the Gaza border.
00:57:14.000We need practical ways of shifting the momentum away from a one state, which is where we're heading now.
00:57:23.000We're heading to more and more settlement building, a sense of hopelessness, And we need to be slowly shifting, and I emphasize slowly and gradually, but with determination to be shifting toward a regional solution, bringing in Israel's Arab partners.
00:57:47.000And you know the very fact that Israel now has Arab partners Is unprecedented.
00:57:53.000And so we need to be using that as a basis for moving forward.
00:57:58.000You know, I mean, one of the big problems that I think everybody is worried about is how do you break this cycle?
00:58:07.000You know, you have Hamas and the Palestinian Authority that Where the leadership essentially uses anti-Semitism and uses the indoctrination of a new generation of children in violence and hatred to cement their own authority and the riches that then pour into them from this cycle of violence.
00:58:32.000But the problem is, and it is a very, very potent tool of power, teaching hatred and anti-Semitism and Or bigotry.
00:58:41.000We know that in our country and other countries.
00:58:44.000It's one of the great alchemies of demagoguery.
00:58:47.000You can create a populist movement through hatred.
00:58:51.000But it also locks those leaders into a system where they cannot negotiate in good faith with Israel because their own followers are now...
00:59:02.000You know, indoctrinated with this zealotry that has the core of its narrative, Israel has no right to exist, that Jews need to be exterminated, and anybody who negotiates with them is a traitor to Islam.
00:59:17.000And, you know, that's one of the reasons that Yasser Arafat told Prince Bandar, I cannot sign, you know, the offers that were made in 2001.
00:59:31.000You know, that to me seems like a very, very difficult obstacle.
00:59:36.000They've now got a whole generation of children that's been raised in this religious ideology.
00:59:42.000And any of the leadership that breaks from home, I'm sure that your life is in danger, Muhammad, because you're talking about peace and you're talking about negotiation.
00:59:54.000And do you agree with me that that's a problem or do you think it is not?
00:59:58.000Basically, I think that what I'm trying to tell the Palestinians is exactly what I want to tell the Israelis, in the sense that when you look at the other, don't see the other as a homogenous entity.
01:00:15.000And so here, Palestinians look at Israel.
01:00:49.000And so here in Israel, there are those who are for peace and there are those who are against peace.
01:00:57.000Those who recognize Palestinian rights and those who do not.
01:01:02.000And so Palestinians look and do not see Those who support Palestinian rights.
01:01:10.000And that's why I'm against the BDS and the boycotts, because it calls for boycotting Israel as a whole, while in this way they are also boycotting those who are supporting them.
01:01:25.000Israelis look at the Palestinians and keep using the word Palestinians without recognizing that there is a voice of enmity within this Palestinian and there is a voice of peace.
01:01:38.000And in this way, even October 7th, there are people, Palestinians were, people say Palestinians this, Palestinians did that, but that's not Palestinians.
01:01:52.000These are Hamas radicals who did that, who believe.
01:01:57.000Who are anti-Jewish, anti-Semitic, and this is how they are raised.
01:02:02.000But these are a section of the Palestinians.
01:02:21.000But they will tell you that Hamas, the Palestinians in the West Bank, 90%, the police say 90% support Hamas.
01:02:32.000But they don't see that they are not supporting what happened on October 7th.
01:02:39.000But they are sympathetic with what is happening in Gaza in the post-October 7th, in the sense of all the destruction that took place.
01:02:50.00030,000 people killed, all the demolition, the children, and all that.
01:02:58.000So when the Palestinians are talking, they are not talking about October 7th, but rather the post-October 7th, or pre-October 7th, but not October 7th.
01:03:16.000When we describe things, I think that we should not use the general term Palestinians to describe what is happening in the West Bank, in Gaza, but understand that within the Palestinians, as well as within the Israeli community, there are those who are for the big dream, which is river to sea, without the other.
01:03:41.000And there are those who are for the small hope, which is sharing the land and wanting to live with the other and believing in the true sense of the Quran, where actually God sent the three religions,
01:03:57.000whether it's the Judaism, Christianity and Islam, they are all Sent by God, messengers of God and the books of God, holy books of God.
01:04:11.000And this way, I believe that this is what we need to understand.
01:04:16.000We need to differentiate within the community between the total use of the generalization and to talk about those who are for peace and those who are against peace, whether on Israel or in Palestine.
01:04:34.000Mohammed and I, we differ perhaps in our temperaments more than we do in our ideology.
01:04:41.000Mohammed is really a more optimistic person than I am, certainly about the conflict.
01:04:49.000I've spent the last year demonstrating against the extremists in my government.
01:04:56.000I was out on the streets literally Every Saturday night, sometimes twice or three times a week.
01:05:02.000So I'm painfully aware of the inroads that extremists have made in my own society.
01:05:09.000And I look at Palestinian society today, and what I see there is very strong support for Hamas, very strong support for October 7th.
01:05:22.000Now, of course, that's not the entire Palestinian people.
01:05:26.000But I look at the polls and I see support for the massacre itself.
01:06:02.000And I can't pretend that that's not the reality.
01:06:07.000Just as I will not minimize the threat of extremists from within my own society, I have to look very realistically at what's happening in Palestinian society and be very cautious about the Taking any premature moves that could be fatal in the long term for Israeli security.
01:07:21.000Because the Palestinian is not looking at October 7th.
01:07:26.000He's looking at what happened post-October 7th.
01:07:30.000And that's where, emotionally speaking, He is not supporting Hamas in terms of its ideology, but he is supporting Hamas in terms of being angry at what is happening in Gaza.
01:07:47.000And as a result, supporting Hamas will displease the Israelis.
01:07:53.000Let me support Hamas to displease the Israelis because of what they did in Gaza.
01:08:41.000I try myself to see things from your angle, and this makes me an outsider within my community.
01:08:51.000But I don't mind that, because I feel I do not want to walk with the crowd When I know that the crowd is walking in the wrong direction.
01:09:01.000And even if that affects my security, even if that makes me an outsider and makes me the target of people saying, you are king of normalization.
01:09:14.000And my response, yes, I thank you for that, for crowning me king of normalization.
01:09:22.000But normalization to end occupation and to build peace is good.
01:09:28.000I'm not in normalization in order to empower occupation.
01:10:08.000And we should try to narrow that gap by trying to move on with planting seeds of peace despite the anger, despite the hate, despite the animosity, despite the hostility, despite the violence.
01:10:23.000And in this way, in the day after, there will be peace.
01:10:28.000But if we don't do that, then the day after, there will be another October 7th and another Gaza demolition.
01:10:37.000And now it is Gaza, tomorrow it's the West Bank.
01:10:42.000And now it is October 7th, tomorrow it is October 10th, whatever.
01:11:37.000And by the way, I've been to Ramallah.
01:11:39.000I've met with a Palestinian leadership in Ramallah and spent a lot of time with Palestinians in Israel and in the West Bank.
01:11:48.000But Adnan Majali, who's a billionaire and goes back and forth from Ramallah to Los Angeles, told me recently, he said, you know, the Palestinians, there are many Palestinians like me who believe, who understand that Palestinians need a strong Israel.
01:12:07.000Because if Israel ceased existing, the region would be taken over very quickly by others, by Iran particularly, and that the outcome for Palestinians would be very, very much worse, if you can imagine it.
01:12:23.000So that's one of the things he said to me.
01:12:25.000I know we talked about the Abraham Accords earlier.
01:12:29.000That is a genuine hope for peace, that the surrounding Arab nations may follow Egypt and sign a peace agreement with Israel and trade agreements and normalized relations.
01:12:44.000That would be astonishing, something almost unimaginable five years ago.
01:12:48.000There are also Palestinians now in the Knesset.
01:12:52.000Who are genuinely interested in peace.
01:12:56.000We've seen the rise of a wonderful Palestinian leader who gives us a lot of hope in the Knesset, Mansour Abbas, not to be confused with Mahmoud Abbas, who runs the Palestinian Authority, but Mansour Abbas was an Israeli-Palestinian who has really focused on improving the lives of his people and on negotiating and working with Jews and government officials.
01:13:21.000And the relationship between the Palestinian people in Israel, I think it's very noteworthy that the And that, to me, is, you know, really also astonishing and a very, very good sign of hope for the future.
01:13:43.000So I'd love you guys to both address that.
01:13:45.000And then I'm going to ask you a final question about what the concrete steps are toward peace that each of you have.
01:13:52.000So let's talk about reasons for optimism first.
01:14:13.000And a regional conflict requires a regional solution.
01:14:17.000And for the first time in the century-old conflict, We have a real dynamic of peace between Israel and the Arab countries of the Abraham Accords.
01:14:32.000These are not glorified ceasefire agreements, which is really what we had with Egypt and Jordan in the past.
01:14:41.000These are genuine expressions of normalization.
01:14:45.000And one of the reasons, I believe, that Hamas We really got
01:15:29.000In the past, we thought that that support would come from the international community.
01:15:34.000I believe it must be the region itself that deals with its own problems.
01:15:40.000And so Israel, together with its new Arab allies, finding allies in Palestinian society, moving toward ways of leading us gradually Out of this model of occupation and enmity and despair to a possibility long-term for a two-state solution.
01:16:07.000And I don't think that even though it seems in one way so utopian today to speak about peace, I believe that the counter-trends in the region really change Will point us in a different direction.
01:16:25.000The last thing I'll say here is the role of Iran, which you raised.
01:16:33.000Iran's goal is to dominate the Middle East, and Israel is the only force capable of stopping Iranian expansionism.
01:16:45.000Iran controls effectively four Arab countries today.
01:16:51.000Iraq, Lebanon, to some extent, Syria, Yemen.
01:16:57.000And the great obstacle to Iran is the Jewish state, which is why the Abraham Accords happened in the first place.
01:17:08.000Arab countries are looking toward an alliance with Israel to stop Iranian expansionism.
01:17:15.000And so this war that's happening today is not just between Israel and Hamas.
01:17:20.000This is really, to my mind, the first stage of the Israeli-Iranian war, which began on October 7.
01:17:28.000Hezbollah is an Iranian proxy sitting on Israel's northern border.
01:17:42.000And so in the Middle East, Peace often happens together with war.
01:17:49.000The Egyptian-Israeli peace agreement happened after the Yom Kippur War, when Egypt and Syria attacked Israel.
01:17:58.000No one in 1973, when the war ended, Could have imagined that four years later, the most right-wing prime minister in Israel's history until that point, Menachem Begin, would sign a peace agreement with the Arab leader who launched the Yom Kippur War.
01:18:15.000And yet it was precisely as a result of the war which exhausted people's capacity for war.
01:18:24.000People just came out of the Yom Kippur saying, how much more of this can we take?
01:18:29.000And my hope is that the aftermath of the Gaza war will have a similar impact on the region, and that we will unite with our allies against Iranian expansion, because that is the real war.
01:18:46.000The war is not between Israel and the Palestinians in the long term.
01:20:25.000Now you are talking about The Abrahamic Accord, which is government to government so far.
01:20:34.000And then the problem is when the people look at what is happening in Gaza and the insistence of the Israeli government to use force rather than diplomacy.
01:20:52.000We don't want Hamas to be ruling Gaza.
01:20:56.000And at the same time, we do not want all this destruction that's happening in Gaza.
01:21:04.000And so in order for Israel really to have a place and to be a light in the region...
01:21:12.000It has to include within it, people will judge Israel and how Israel will deal with its minorities, with the Palestinians in particular, as a people and as a nation in this sense.
01:21:27.000And this is where The Abrahamic Accords, I believe, fail in not including the Palestinians because, yes, there are Palestinians against the Abrahamic Accord, but there are Palestinians also for the Abrahamic Accord.
01:21:44.000So instead of excluding the Palestinians from the Abrahamic Accord, there should be an inclusion of the Palestinians within the Abrahamic Accord so that it will become, instead of Government to government to become people to people.
01:22:02.000And the only way it will become people to people is for Israel to act justly to the Palestinian people.
01:22:12.000And in this way, the people in the Arab world and in the Muslim world, when they see that, it will make a lot of difference.
01:23:22.000When I see a Jew doing something good to me, like today, I was at a Jewish hospital where I was having exams for my eye, and I see that, and I feel that's the face I want to see.
01:23:41.000I don't want to see the face that crushes me or destroys me.
01:23:46.000And then I'm supposed to be in peace with them.
01:24:42.000If you're saying that Abraham Accord should not go forward without Palestinian participation, but what if you can't find a Palestinian willing to, a leader, a genuine leader willing to participate?
01:24:54.000You could have made the same argument.
01:24:57.000With the Camp David Accords in 1978, the Palestinians rejected it, and we would have gone 35 years without peace between Egypt and Jordan if we had waited for Palestinian leadership to emerge.
01:25:10.000And I believe that when I meet face-to-face with Palestinians, they're some of the most generous, kind-hearted I find in Israel the same vision that you've articulated today.
01:25:25.000But I think that the leadership, particularly Hamas and the PAA, are locked in systems that are corrupt and that thrive off the violence that makes it very difficult for their leadership then to go and make a compromise.
01:25:40.000I think it's a trap that they've made.
01:25:44.000That has been created by those leaders who are now trapped in that system.
01:25:48.000And that, I think, is a challenge of how do you get somebody to actually sit down at the table and, Yossi, why don't you get a chance to reply?
01:25:57.000And then I'll ask you both, because we're winding down, to talk about what the concrete steps are that we need to be taking to bring people together.
01:26:11.000Deeply religious people from three religions on this Zoom call.
01:26:15.000How do we make that happen across the board in the Mideast, where people can sit down and talk with each other without hating and violence?
01:26:25.000I think that Israel's dilemma is that we're not facing a people, we're facing A dictatorial regime that doesn't give place for the expression of its people.
01:26:42.000And in Israel, with all of our imperfections and all the rising extremism that we're dealing with, there's an open conflict in the society, which I have been very much a part of.
01:26:56.000I want to add, too, that I also am with you on that, and I'm opposing the Netanyahu regime and the judicial reforms.
01:27:08.000And, you know, so how do we—we'll go ahead on you.
01:27:11.000But so my point about that is that in Israeli society, you can measure— Who is for peace?
01:28:44.000You really, you have taken risks and you have faced violence.
01:28:49.000You have faced consequences in frightening ways.
01:28:55.000But that only exacerbates the dilemma.
01:28:58.000And so when you say that Israel needs to present a soft face, I agree with you.
01:29:04.000Israel needs to present a soft face, but it also needs to maintain its hard face with those who want to destroy us.
01:29:14.000And for the history of this conflict, we have faced, for the most part, A region that did not want us here, that did not see our legitimacy, that didn't recognize our indigenousness.
01:29:29.000And I've been desperate for voices like yours on the Palestinian side.
01:29:34.000And I've committed myself to looking for those voices and standing with you.
01:29:40.000Even when we disagree, especially when we disagree.
01:29:43.000And to model what a respectful relationship of overlapping, entwining agreements and disagreements looks like.
01:29:55.000And in the end, what's really important for me is our friendship and our refusal to give into despair and our shared vision of That each of our peoples deserves its place, its legitimate place.
01:30:14.000We need to stop trying to deny the other people's right to exist in this land.
01:31:17.000On another level, we are also part of societies.
01:31:22.000We belong to peoples that are at war with each other.
01:31:27.000And I have a responsibility to To make sure, first of all, that my people are safe and Muhammad has the same responsibility for his people.
01:31:36.000That's my first priority, that my people is safe.
01:31:41.000My next priority is that my neighbor is safe and that I can have a relationship with my neighbor.
01:31:47.000And so how do I navigate between those two commitments?
01:32:28.000And that's where one step to move forward is to end that occupation in order that it is not being used as a pretext in order to incite people.
01:32:42.000And also, I think that it is important for the Palestinians to have the courage to move on.
01:32:51.000Unfortunately, those with the courage are not supported by others, by the Europeans, by the Americans, by the Japanese, by the international community, by even the Arab states.
01:33:07.000There is That's where we need to support the moderation vision and the moderates within the Palestinians in order for them to rise up and stand and in order for them to move on.
01:33:25.000I do hope that we will be able to move on.
01:33:31.000Today was a very important experience for me personally, although I went through this before.
01:33:41.000For instance, I was using the light train, where actually most of the people or most of the people using it are Israelis.
01:33:55.000And I was worried about my safety being among them during this time.
01:34:01.000On the contrary, one of the young people stood up and let me take a seat.
01:34:07.000And that affected me, looking at him doing that.
01:34:12.000And then in the hospital, everybody was trying to help.
01:34:17.000And everybody, and they did not look at me as an Arab, as a Palestinian, who is holding hostages, Jews, and who did October 7th and all that.
01:34:32.000Reward that feeling with feeling of animosity or anger or hostility.
01:34:38.000And that's where I believe the good in the other will bring out the good in me.
01:34:45.000And in this way, we can be able to move on, whether it is one state or two states or ten states.
01:34:53.000The important thing is that the solution, that we seek a solution and we reach a solution.
01:35:02.000I think, Mohammed, you're touching on a very important and underused resource for peace, which is the practical experience of coexistence that Jews and Arabs have within the state of Israel and within Jerusalem.
01:35:21.000The fact that hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and Israelis mingle in Jerusalem every day.
01:36:29.000But on the whole, we've learned what I would call the habits of civility.
01:36:35.000And that same pattern of interaction is played out every day in Jerusalem, between East and West Jerusalem.
01:36:45.000Again, it's not to minimize the tensions that are there, and those tensions flare up, especially around the Temple Mount, the Al-Aqsa, When sometimes there are riots there, and then there's an Israeli crackdown.
01:37:00.000And so we are living on a volcano in Jerusalem, but we are living on this volcano.
01:37:07.000And so there is a basis for some form of decency, a decent alternative.
01:37:22.000We need, first of all, to acknowledge them.
01:37:25.000And hold them up as signs of an alternative future.
01:37:35.000Mohammed and Yossi, thank you so much for joining.
01:37:38.000Can you tell us, before we go, how can people support each of you individually and how can people support the Joint Project of Peace in Israel?
01:37:53.000I believe that it is very important to support projects that is done by moderate NGOs and civil society.
01:38:02.000This is one way to rebuild what has been destroyed and to move on.
01:38:09.000And I hope that we can be able to eventually see an end to this war.
01:38:19.000And be able to find peace within both communities.
01:38:27.000And I feel that it is very important for the U.S., the Europeans and others, and the Japanese to support the moderates within both communities.
01:38:40.000Professor Mohamed Dajani Daoudi, Thank you very much.
01:38:45.000And Yossi Klein, is there a way people can reach you or support you?
01:38:51.000Yeah, I sit at the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem, which does very important work in bringing Arab and Jewish citizens of Israel together.
01:39:06.000And we have programs bringing high school principals of Arab and Jewish schools together in joint study.
01:39:14.000We have programs of developing curriculum for teaching coexistence to both peoples.
01:39:24.000I personally work primarily as a writer, and I've written a number of books about About attempted coexistence, I wrote a book called The Entrance to the Garden of Eden, which tells the story of a two-year journey I took into Islam and Christianity as a religious Jew in the Holy Land.
01:39:47.000And my most recent book, The Letters to My Palestinian Neighbor, which includes an extensive epilogue of Palestinian responses, including a wonderful letter from Muhammad, which really began our friendship.
01:40:05.000And the book attempts to model a new kind of conversation between Palestinians and Israelis.
01:40:13.000And so that's Those are the areas in which I work.
01:40:21.000Yossi and Mohamed, thank you very much for joining me today.