In this episode, my guest is Joel Saladin, who is part of the family that owns Polyface Farms in Virginia s Shenandoah Valley. The farm uses no chemicals and raises pasture livestock including beef, pork, poultry, turkey, lamb, and rabbit which is directly marketed in the region and shipped nationwide. He is the author of 16 books and is a sought-after conference speaker on divergent agricultural business and food integrity topics. Joel is the editor of The Stockman Grass Farmer and writes columns in numerous publications. He also writes columns for numerous publications, including The New York Times Bestseller, The Root, and Food Inc. and the award-winning documentary, Food Inc., The Farm Uses No Chemicals and Raises No Pesticides, including Beef, Pork, Poultry, Turkey, and Rabbit. The Farm was highlighted in the New Yorker s bestseller, Omnivore s Dilemma, and the documentary Food Inc.'s The Biggest Little Farm in the World. Joel and his family came here in 1961, and their family never made a living from the farm. They came here to make a living on this small homestead experimental farm in the 1960s and 70s. How did they manage it? How do they do it now? And what are their plans for the future of the farm? What will it look like in the future? And how will it be different from the big white tablecloth restaurants we ve all grown up in the late 1800s and early 1900s? I m really really happy to be with you, and I m so excited to have you on the show today! -Joel Saladin and I hope you enjoy this episode. -Timestamps: 1:00:00 2:30 - What is the difference between organic farming and conventional farming? 3:00 - What does it mean to me? 4:00- What are the benefits of organic food? 5:15 - What kind of food does it taste like? 6:40 - How does it make you feel? 7:30 8:40 9:20 - What are you like to eat it better? 11:10 - What do you think of the food you're eating? 12:10 13:00 | How do you feel about the food I eat? 14:30 | What is your favorite piece of food?
00:02:16.000We, you know, had some chickens in the big garden.
00:02:19.000But he was totally, his father had been a charter subscriber to Rodale's Organic Gardening and Farming Magazine in the mid-1940s when it first came out.
00:02:28.000So, he got this ecology kit, compost, and all that from his dad.
00:02:33.000So we came here, you know, how do you make a living on this small farm?
00:02:37.000And all the advice was, you know, buy chemicals, borrow more money, plant corn, build silos, graze the woodlot, you know, those kinds of things.
00:02:46.000And we knew that that wasn't correct ecologically.
00:02:50.000But more importantly, he understood that it was incorrect economically.
00:02:54.000You know, we couldn't We're good to go.
00:03:37.000I came back to the farm full-time September 24, 1982, and it's not gone fast, but it's just been nice and steady up to where today we're servicing.
00:03:50.000It takes about 22 of us to actually run the farm and do the things that we're doing.
00:03:58.000And then you market through what kind of distributors?
00:04:03.000Yeah, so our brand is Polyface Farm, and we sell here at the farm.
00:04:08.000We have about 35 urban drop points within four hours of the farm, so that gets us to, you know, Caswick, Maryland, D.C., Annapolis, and then down to, you know, Williamsburg, Virginia Beach.
00:04:25.000And of course, Northern Virginia is the lion's share, Richmond.
00:05:01.000And I think you've actually pointed this out, that the COVID, the 2020, was the largest transfer of wealth in the restaurant industry from white tablecloth mom and pops sit-down restaurants to fast food restaurants.
00:05:18.000It transferred that entire restaurant equity to the great big...
00:05:26.000As opposed to, you know, embedded small kind of chef-owned and smaller white tablecloth places, the kind of places that we serviced.
00:07:12.000People meet each other, and they become little fellowship hubs of people who care about food, care about the environment, care about livestock care, and the kind of issues that we care about.
00:07:27.000And it's wonderful to be able to service them and have them meet each other and build these little tribes, if you will, that understand these issues.
00:07:54.000So what it is, is they order online and we're going to be in, let's say, whatever, Leesburg, Virginia on Tuesday.
00:08:02.000So we go every month on a schedule and people order and we Compile their orders here and bring them up and they meet us at that host home, at that rendezvous place.
00:09:49.000Those are the kinds of things that we're doing, in addition to, obviously, really good food, to stimulate the whole story, family, fellowship, connection thing to the food and the farm.
00:10:06.000Now, I mean, did you make this whole thing up as you were going along, or are there models for this happening elsewhere in the country?
00:10:15.000Yeah, actually, I don't want to take too much credit, but we kind of conceived of this.
00:10:57.000They're participating in the local food scene, but it's one hand only because the other hand's carrying Fifi, the coiffed oodle dog, and we're all there to kind of meet each other and slap each other on the back for being...
00:11:11.000You know, wonderful people participating in the local food system.
00:11:15.000And so we tried numerous farmers markets and we were just never pleased with the investment of time and energy and realized, well, what if we just use the power of the Internet And this is going back now, goodness, 20-some years.
00:11:37.000What if we use that, communicate directly with our people and pre-buy, so they're pre-buy, so we're not going speculating, and we can service them right where they live, and they can see us, we can see them, and we can actually electronically aggregate stuff.
00:11:59.000It took off and it enabled us To put way more on the truck, to get way more for our time, and everything was sold before we pulled out of the driveway.
00:12:13.000So we didn't have to come home and unpack a bunch of stuff that didn't sell.
00:12:19.000And there are now numerous farms around the country that have taken this kind of urban drop point idea and adapted it, and it's just one of the many Whatever.
00:12:31.000Many opportunities that have come to us largely due to internet and the cheap cost of communication now that we didn't have 50 years ago.
00:12:49.000You know, I used to know very well, be good friends with Bill Nyman, who started Nyman Ranch, and his wife, Nicolette, was an attorney for me that I hired, and I brought her into the...
00:13:05.000Hog litigation and she met Bill through that and now she's a farmer.
00:13:12.000But their model was very interesting because they aggregated farmers from all over the country who were doing grass-fed beef and pasture-raised beef.
00:13:27.000And pork, and I think chickens as well, maybe other poultry, but they would then go certify these farms, look at their operations, make sure that they were compliant with these standards, and then they market them nationwide.
00:13:44.000So you can go to restaurants all over the country and get Naiman pork, Naiman beef, and it's, you know, delicious food.
00:13:51.000It tastes completely different than, you know, the Walmart pork.
00:13:56.000I'm not sure how they're doing right now.
00:14:00.000I know they had some reorganizations along the way, but is there anybody who's now kind of aggregating what you're doing and doing it nationally?
00:14:14.000Yeah, well, what, you know, what the whole logistics of the whole logistics of distribution has completely changed over the last goodness, just 10 or 15 years, because the software, you know, that UPS and FedEx because the software, you know, that UPS and FedEx and these folks use makes it so much more efficient.
00:14:39.000It used to be that in order to distribute, you know, it was very, very expensive for a small-scale operation.
00:14:49.000But now, you know, we're plugged directly into UPS, and the truck comes every Tuesday afternoon and every Wednesday afternoon, and it goes right on the truck.
00:15:21.000We stole some ideas from other people and did some of our own and started doing it.
00:15:26.000We can now ship eggs into New York, Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles cheaper than they can get them at farmer's market.
00:15:38.000Because when you have the level of corruption, regulation, high taxes, defund the police, all the things that are crumbling these cities, it makes business very difficult.
00:15:53.000You can't hire people, you can't protect your inventory.
00:15:58.000And as a result, places like where we are out here in the Shenandoah Valley, where we're low taxes, low crime, a great work ethic.
00:16:13.000We can now compete like we never could have before as these big metropolitan areas begin to move into dysfunctionality.
00:16:27.000you know, from a logistical political standpoint.
00:16:44.000But it's just amazing that we're creating opportunities in niches that we never would have even conceived of just even 10 years ago.
00:16:56.000Let's talk about another segue into another topic that I have a lot of interest in.
00:17:04.000Which are the bureaucratic impediments and costs on quality food production, how essentially the USDA, the FDA, and these other Regulatory agencies are making war on healthy food and organic food and raising the cost so much of all food in this country and giving us the lowest quality food and,
00:17:33.000you know, all the food that's I've been corralled through these industrial mazes so that only the worst food is actually reaching the American public at its high cost.
00:17:50.000Yeah, well, you're getting near and dear to my heart.
00:17:54.000You know, I wrote a book, Everything I Want to Do is Illegal, and describing our, whatever, battles to the regulatory agencies over the years.
00:18:08.000And Notice I said everything I want to do is illegal.
00:18:11.000I didn't say everything I do is illegal.
00:18:12.000I said everything I want to do is illegal.
00:19:25.000It's about the cost of compliance, the overheads, the infrastructure requirements, the compliance paperwork requirements create such an overhead that when you don't have as many pounds of beef or pounds of pork or chicken or whatever to pass under that licensure overhead, the price becomes prohibitive.
00:19:52.000And so what happens is farmers like us get accused of being, oh, you're a bunch of elitists.
00:19:58.000You know, you've got this high-priced stuff.
00:20:00.000Well, I can tell you most of our high-pricing has nothing to do with actual production costs.
00:20:07.000It's actually trying to squeeze our, you know, our 300 beef a year through a filter that is built for 5,000 beef a day.
00:21:11.000If you visit Williamsburg, I know you've been to Williamsburg many times, The thing that strikes you about William, which strikes me, is the amount of industry and value-added activity that's happening in the backyards and in the fields of those little farms, those little demonstration places.
00:21:30.000I mean, they've got candle makers, spoke makers, leather works, casket makers, spinners, weavers, all of the industry was being done On location.
00:21:47.000The Butcher Baker and Candlestick Maker were on location.
00:21:51.000And today, what's happened is the Industrial Revolution made the Butcher Baker and Candlestick Maker so big that nobody wanted it near them because it was ugly and smelled bad and, you know, dirty and all that.
00:22:10.000But then when they got out here and nobody could see them, they wanted government oversight to see behind that razor wire and the guard fence and say, what's going on behind that razor wire?
00:22:22.000Because when people can't see, they want the security of a government agent behind them to see.
00:22:30.000Well, what's happened now is that with the internet, we have now democratized The ability to get information, I call it Uberized.
00:22:43.000We've Uberized and I'm sure like you, if 40 years ago somebody had said, you know, in about 10 years, millions of people all over the planet are going to jump into cars with people that don't even have a chauffeur's license and ask the guy to take them someplace, you know.
00:23:04.000And it's all going to work because if you're a bad passenger, they'll dock you and you won't get a ride.
00:23:09.000And if they're a bad driver, you'll dock them and they won't get any business.
00:23:13.000And so the internet created, it's called the uberization, it created, it literally enabled on a global scale the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker and the village knowledge that wrapped around these embedded artisans to be duplicated on a very large grand scale.
00:23:42.000But food, which was the last portion to join the Industrial Revolution, will be the last to exit.
00:23:50.000And so we now have the capability to Uberize our food system, to break it down, to democratize it, to create an egalitarian marketplace for entrepreneurial small-scale brands and local food systems.
00:24:08.000We've never been able to do that as now with Uberization, Airbnb, those kinds of things, have this amazing bureaucracy you're so eloquent to talk about that's trying to preserve the taxi cab, that's trying to preserve the chauffeur service and not allow an Uberization of our food system.
00:24:34.000You know, years ago, I think it was in the late 90s or early 2000s, I forget which, but I did a big campaign in Poland because Poland had this extraordinary organic agricultural system.
00:24:50.000When it was a communist country, they didn't have money to buy chemicals.
00:24:55.000And you had a lot of small farms that were self-sufficient.
00:25:00.000And they were, you know, the farms were very diverse.
00:25:03.000They'd have a cow, they'd have a horse, a couple of cows, a couple of horses.
00:25:17.000In every town, there were local abattoirs, which is, of course, a slaughterhouse, a little slaughterhouse where you could slaughter one hog a day or one...
00:25:28.000And then they'd make this kielbasa, which was famous all over the world.
00:25:33.000That's where Polish kielbasa comes from.
00:25:37.0004,000 little abattoirs that, you know, didn't have any safety regulations.
00:25:43.000There was no, you know, it was just farmers doing what they'd been doing for 10,000 years, you know, killing their own beef.
00:25:53.000And of course, back in the old days, there was a There was a premium on hygiene, because if you were known for selling bad stuff that made people sick, you'd be out of business.
00:26:07.000So that was the safety regulation, really.
00:26:21.000I offered a bribe to a state official called Andre Leper, who then turned them in.
00:26:30.000He told me that the second guy in command of Smithfield offered him a million-dollar bribe.
00:26:35.000And the bribe was to pass legislation, which they did end up passing, although Leper refused to do it.
00:26:42.000But it was legislation that said you could not operate.
00:26:47.000Smithfield had come in and bought the old Soviet slaughterhouses, which were huge.
00:26:53.000They were like the state-owned operation, and then it was modernizing them, but it passed a law simultaneously.
00:27:01.000It sponsored a law which was then passed that said that you could not operate a slaughterhouse in Poland unless you had laser-automated faucets in your bathrooms.
00:27:14.000And those are the kind of faucets you see, you know, if you go into an airport bathroom and you don't have to touch anything, you can, you know, you can just wave your hand under the faucet.
00:27:25.000Of course, none of these local abattoirs could afford that.
00:27:30.000In one fell swoop, Smithfield put every one of its competitors out of business by requiring a piece of technology that none of them needed and nobody could afford except for Smithfield.
00:28:05.000Keeping little farmers out of business and this colonial model and strip mining and commoditizing our natural resources, our farmland and everything else, it's really distressing.
00:28:20.000What you've just described has happened over and over and over here.
00:28:25.000Probably one of the biggest epiphanies I ever had was...
00:28:30.000It was several years ago when Congressman Dennis Kucinich, you may have known him.
00:28:35.000He was my campaign manager until a couple of months ago.
00:28:38.000Okay, well, you know, in California they had that abattoir where that downer cow, they had undercover animal welfare folks that videoed this downer cow, you know, that they prodded and hit with fire hoses and stuff to get her up so she'd stand up and get to the knock box and And it ended up, you know, closing down the plant and it was a big deal.
00:29:00.000And Congressman Kucinich convened a congressional hearing on what are we going to do about this, you know, slaughter problem in the U.S., the handling of these animals in these slaughterhouses.
00:29:16.000I wasn't friends with him at the time, but I was friends with one of the other congressmen who was on the committee and or his legislative aide.
00:29:25.000And he asked me to come and be one of the twelve whatever testifiers at the hearing.
00:29:36.000The first guy who spent the first, goodness, he hogged 20% of the whole time, was the head of Food Safety Inspection Service, the commissioner of the Food Safety Inspection Service.
00:29:49.000And I could not believe, here's the punchline, I could not believe my ears when he said, he was reporting how efficient they were and all this stuff, and he said, We now,
00:30:05.000our inspectors, are now being able to handle way more pounds of beef, way more pounds of animal across the line than they ever had because we've put so many of the small abattoirs out of business that the pounds per hour per inspector are showing how efficient we are.
00:30:51.000And so why is it surprising that in an industrial corporate fashion, Food, you know, processing paradigm would engender a similarly, you know, volume-based inspection paradigm.
00:31:10.000And so both of them are patting themselves on the back because they've got so much more volume going through.
00:31:48.000It's just how many pounds can we shove through this plant in a day?
00:31:52.000Both from the corporate and the inspector level.
00:31:54.000Both of them are after the same The same goal is how many pounds can we shove through in a day?
00:32:00.000And that then makes it very difficult for a small plant.
00:32:04.000You can feel the prejudice against a small, oh, I've got to go down there and see these slow people, you know, that aren't generating the material.
00:32:13.000And it's an overriding prejudice within the entire industry.
00:32:20.000Yeah, I mean, I remember looking at data back then, and I don't know if I could put my...
00:32:26.000Finger on it now, but the levels of fecal coliform in the large plants were much, much higher than what you were seeing in the small plants because the industrialization of the process and the emphasis on line speed Was ending up with actually a lower quality product in terms of
00:33:48.000And we now learned We now learn that in 2020 that it has built in fragility to it.
00:33:59.000And so the longer your food chain, the longer it is between farm and plate, the more vulnerable it is to geopolitical shocks, to economic shocks, to Whatever, climate shocks, any kinds of things.
00:34:21.000And so, you know, so Putin invades Ukraine, fertilizer jumps 400%, and all the farmers are on national media crying, you know, oh, what are we going to do?
00:34:32.000At our farm, it was not even a bobble because we don't buy any of that stuff.
00:34:38.000If we want a secure, safe, stable food system, the less we are tangled up and dependent in these long supply chains, marketing chains, they appear to be efficient, but they're actually very vulnerable and fragile to things that are outside of our control.
00:35:04.000You know, bringing these things to where we scale, we scale not by centralization, but by duplication.
00:35:11.000So that instead of having, listen, in 2020, do you think we would have had as big a, whatever, a food hiccup if instead of our country being supplied by 300 mega processing facilities, those funnels, instead if we had been supplied by 300,000, 50-employee community-minded neighborhood abattoirs and canneries and processors.
00:35:41.000It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that if we had had the 300,000 rather than the 300,000, that we would have been able to handle those shocks far, far better.
00:35:54.000Yeah, I mean, that's a really beautiful vision for our future.
00:35:58.000I mean, that's, you know, what I'd like to do as president, which is to get us food security back in this country where we're, you know, we have a decentralized supply, where there's diverse sources, where they're community-based,
00:36:14.000where it's small business people, where You know, the money being spent, money being purchased, money being used by consumers to purchase food is going as directly as possible to the farmer rather than, you know, to all these multinational intermediaries and fertilizer companies and oil refineries and chemical companies, etc.
00:36:41.000And, you know, let's keep it here in the United States and use what we've got.
00:36:48.000So how we get there, you know, from a policy standpoint, you know, there's one side of this issue that says, well, we need to fight the, do the antitrust stuff.
00:37:05.000You know, we got to break up these big companies, break up their, and I get that.
00:37:35.000But what I can't compete with is when suddenly my two cows have to go in through a facility that is determined and arbitrated by Iowa beef packers that's doing 5,000 animals a day I can't compete at that level, and I don't need to, because two cows are different than 5,000.
00:38:04.000If I'm making meals in my kitchen, it's just easier to maintain cleanliness if I'm making 10 meals a day than if I'm making 1,000 meals a day.
00:39:04.000And you lose the dynamic, the hidden finger of the market, and the accountability of the market.
00:39:14.000You artificially manipulate the market in one direction or another, instead of just letting the market I have no trouble competing with Tyson, Cargill, whatever.
00:39:41.000I'm a couple million dollar business and Walmart is a multi-billion dollar business.
00:39:46.000When you look at a website, a website is like the, you know, the ultimate, you know, democratized facade, you know, for access.
00:39:55.000And so we can compete very well at this level, but we can't compete when a bureaucrat comes in and puts his finger on the scale and says, you know, we're going to push it this way.
00:40:10.000And then, you know, those big industrial facilities, one of the substances they get is their capacity to pollute the environment, to create huge amounts of waste and concentrated animal feed operations and then not properly dispose of it,
00:40:26.000whereas a farmer like you will take that waste, recycle it, use the manure, maybe have 300 hogs on a On a half a section of property and, you know, they raise the corn, the hogs eat the corn, the manure goes back into the field.
00:40:49.000But if you have 10,000 hogs on that You know, 320 acres, half section, and you try to spread that manure on the ground, most of it's going to go off in the rain, and, you know, it's going to end up in the water supply, the aquifer.
00:41:06.000It's going to turn the soils over, nitrify the soils, and it's going to kill the animals that graze on it.
00:41:18.000You know, but that's a subsidy for them.
00:41:23.000And, of course, Michael Pollan has written eloquently about this.
00:41:27.000He says what we've done is we have broken apart, we have segregated, we have segregated our beautiful relational balance, relational balance.
00:41:40.000You know, ecological, umbilical, and we've turned blessings into a curse.
00:41:44.000You know, nature loves Love's digested material, you know, manure and urine, you know, that's what built the Great Plains.
00:41:53.000The fertile plains of America were built with animals and that decomposition.
00:42:00.000But when you concentrate things and you overrun your ecological umbilical, then suddenly, you know, you've turned a blessing into a curse.
00:42:10.000And you segregate rather than integrate the different components.
00:42:15.000So we grow the feed over here, we grow the chickens over here, we process them over here, we sell them over there, and none of this is then...
00:42:26.000You know, integrated or related with each other, and so we view life as fundamentally a factory, you know, in the front door, out the back door, as opposed to a biological system.
00:42:39.000The difference between food and other things, you know, copper widgets and PVC pipe, is that food is a biological thing, and biological things are not just mechanical.
00:42:51.000They have a totally different dimension.
00:42:56.000And, you know, they need rest, they're spontaneous, they actually think, you know, they respond, they're sentient, all these things, you know, that a brake lining or a, you know, A wheel bearing in a car doesn't.
00:43:18.000Nature is that spontaneous, dynamic thinking, conversing, relational kind of thing that you don't get from your car engine or a light socket.
00:43:44.000I was in Mississippi last fall talking to farmers that were actually having their cows, they were stepping into the cracks in the ground, the ground cracks that opened up so wide, cows were stepping in them and breaking their legs, and the farmers were having to put their cows down because they were losing these cows.
00:44:03.000And so, you know, the drought is real, and I don't want to get into a great big, you know, climate debate or anything like that, but all I'm going to say is droughts are real.
00:44:42.000I mean, they're looking for a bogeyman.
00:44:45.000And the ones that understand that it is the drought that's been incredibly deep throughout the whole South for the last two years.
00:44:54.000When you don't have drought, you don't have grass, you don't have grass, you don't have cows.
00:45:00.000The ones that have done it have basically, the tragedy is they throw up their hands and say, well, I'm just a victim to climate and I can't do anything.
00:45:08.000But man, the beauty is that we can do something about those things.
00:45:15.000I mean, I've got a kind of a three-ingredient recipe.
00:45:20.000You know, back in the 1940s and 50s, post Dust Bowl, the old Soil Conservation Service Used to partner with farmers to help cost share building ponds.
00:45:32.000They realized how important it was to hydrate the landscape.
00:45:35.000Now, the same USDA considers ponds to be a liability because they make landing spots for wildlife that bring diseases to concentrated animal feeding operations and CAFOs.
00:46:10.000But when you cover, when you have that much water, Like the beaver ponds did, it creates base flow, it fills aquifers, it makes ambient temperatures easier, evapotranspiration, cloud formation.
00:46:24.000I mean, there's all sorts of beautiful things that happen.
00:46:26.000And so I suggest that the first thing we need to do is be on an aggressive pond building campaign so that we eliminate flooding.
00:46:36.000And have water to be able to irrigate.
00:46:38.000So we're not pulling water from streams and aquifers and things like that.
00:46:41.000So that as a result of us walking here, we are actually increasing the water commons, not decreasing the water commons.
00:46:50.000And so on our farm, we've built over 20 ponds over the years.
00:46:54.000We can now irrigate when the water shuts off.
00:47:12.000And, of course, our modern agriculture system with chemical fertilizers that cannibalize out the organic matter, tillage that cannibalizes out the single crop production, all of those things Reduce organic matter in the soil.
00:47:32.000On our farm, we've gone from 1% in 1961 to over 8% today.
00:47:37.000That 7% increase in organic matter, which means we can hold 140,000 gallons of water per acre today that we couldn't in 1961.
00:48:19.000And you don't get vegetation by overgrazing And monocropping, any of that kind of thing, you get vegetation, especially with diversity, where you intermingle forests and pasture and perennials, and you create this abundance.
00:48:45.000A lot of people don't realize that 500 years ago, North America produced more food than we do today.
00:48:52.000So with all of our chemical fertilizers, John Deere tractors, and everything else, hybrid seeds, we are still not producing the food that was produced here 500 years ago.
00:49:18.000And so it wasn't all eaten by people, but it was an abundance situation which should give us all in the farming business pause to realize that we have actually...
00:49:31.000In total, over the last 200 years of this nation, as great as this nation is, I love this country, but we have, in total, we have actually reduced our ecological abundance, our total productive abundance.
00:49:45.000We reduced it rather than increased it.
00:49:47.000And I suggest that a mandate for tomorrow should be Seeing what those workable patterns were and are, and then facilitating them, participating with them on the landscape.
00:50:02.000So ponds, organic matter, and vegetation are the three ways to mitigate drought.
00:50:09.000And what I would like to see is as we all, you know, our heart breaks for the drought, but instead of just acting like Well, there's nothing I can do and it's out of my hands.
00:50:24.000Let's meet it head on and let's realize, obviously, we can't completely change the weather.
00:50:35.000But there are a lot of things that we can do to mitigate, I would say, to bring forgiveness and redemptive capacity back into the landscape.
00:50:51.000We are active participants to either help or hurt, and that's where we need to be, so that as farmers, we provide oases of hope and help when society becomes hopeless and helpless.
00:51:09.000Joel Saladin, thank you so much for joining us today and for educating us about all these important subjects.
00:51:15.000And I hope to have you back on this show soon.