On this episode of the Pressure Podcast, we have the long awaited debate between Roland Tomasi, Michael Sartain, and Sneeko on the topic of the Red Pill vs. The Blue Pill. This is a debate you've all been waiting for!
00:14:31.980But there's a criteria there that is our that forms the basis, I would say, like just the core principle of what is what is a high value man.
00:14:39.580So when we go through that, we go and say, OK, well, how tall is that guy?
00:15:05.900So we always, and you guys do the same thing, when we are looking to establish what is a high-value man, at least as far as what women are looking for at that time.
00:15:13.300And I'm not saying that there's another definition for guys as well.
00:15:16.760As I said, it's other men want to be, and other women want to have sex with.
00:16:32.940No matter what number we say is the subjectivity.
00:16:35.140For me, high-value men is going to be the guy who puts fitness first.
00:16:38.280He's going to have a job that's scalable where he's doing something that he loves.
00:16:41.700And he's going to have his options on what woman that he can date.
00:16:44.100Now, if you were to look at that and say, like, for instance, I like Grego Gallagher. I'm a big fan of How to Beast. Brandon Carter is a buddy of mine. Wes Watson, Goggins. What's his name? Jocko Willick. Those guys I consider to be high value men. The thing is, though, if Grego Gallagher is dating a woman with breast implants and fucking plastic surgery, another person who has different religious beliefs are going to be like, no, that's haram. That's bad. So that's the thing. It's the subjectivity of it.
00:17:08.820Sure. I think important to keep in mind is when we say value, we're implying some sort of exchange
00:17:12.900between multiple people. So like a moral man or a virtuous man might be way different than
00:17:17.880a high value man. We can all probably think of people that are very virtuous or moral.
00:17:22.180Someone virtuous who goes by the Quran then have a different definition. Like, for instance,
00:17:26.540you guys had an argument before about family creation. If somebody, several of those guys I
00:17:30.820just mentioned, they are not interested in family creation. They're interested in being the most
00:17:34.360attractive versions of themselves they can be. So you would have one person say, this is not a
00:17:38.560high value man they would call that person a joke and another guy would be like yo man i have been
00:17:42.400used by women my whole life i've been broke my whole fucking life and i see this guy and he's
00:17:45.880fucking killing it that's a high value man the subjectivity of it is like something like when
00:17:50.480you i don't think it's as subjective as you're making it i don't think religious people would
00:17:53.900really disagree about that i just don't think that and this is where a red pill kind of hits
00:17:57.080the wall because it doesn't go past just how much money you make so like i think that's just one
00:18:03.120aspect yeah the subjectivity part comes in i think when it comes to if we use my broad definition of
00:18:08.440resource acquisition, the subjective part is, what do you
00:18:11.740need to acquire resources? So for instance, we say fitness,
00:18:14.780right? Fitness could be a proxy for acquiring resources. If
00:18:18.040you're hunting in the wilderness, a more fit guy can
00:18:19.540climb a tree, kill a bear, whatever. But in some societies,
00:18:21.880fitness isn't a proxy for how much money you make, right? I
00:18:24.280imagine that on average, there's probably a lot of really
00:18:26.700wealthy people that are not I don't know how much Bill Gates
00:18:28.580can bench press, right? But for resource acquisition, he's very,
00:18:31.420very, very valuable. So and then also, I think we have to keep
00:18:34.820in mind when I say high value, and I know Rolo likes to do this
00:18:38.260a lot. And so I'm going to try to play in this realm. I'm not trying to morally load any of
00:18:42.260these words. A high value man. So this question got asked, right? You mean just supply and demand?
00:18:47.060Yeah. So Epstein was a high value man, but obviously morally a horrible character. And
00:18:52.600there's going to be a lot of high value people that have a lot of value in society in terms of
00:18:56.020how much resource they can demand, right? Or Genghis Khan or whatever, who are morally deplorable
00:18:59.720people. And there's going to be a lot of very morally righteous people, virtuous people who
00:19:02.880don't really possess a lot of value. Maybe it's a carpenter or maybe it's a... If I can intervene
00:19:06.160real fast i think one thing that we can all agree to right is i agree that it can it's immoral right
00:19:11.540a guy being high value so it could be someone amoral it could be you know someone that's good
00:19:16.620or bad but i would say this respected by peers has a skill set he has a network of successful
00:19:21.900men around him and we could say a hundred thousand dollars per year but we'll say let's say if you
00:19:27.460make a hundred thousand dollars per year and let's say like maybe a kansas living type sure so those
00:19:31.780are all subjective but we'd all probably agree in the west that'll get you to probably we'd agree
00:19:35.920on the vector that comes closer yeah we agree on the vector true and you seem to be agreeing with
00:19:40.460myron now but you also said last time that elon musk is not a high value man bench from a particular
00:19:45.320context no he's not from what context well for the from the context that he is uh not married
00:19:51.400is a high value man married that has nothing to do with being married or not well it does to the
00:19:56.600definition that other people do you think other people think that being a high value man would
00:20:00.140have some correlation to being married and have kids some people would say because because the
00:20:04.620tweet that i made everybody had a very big problem with not focusing on family creation or not
00:20:09.360getting married so is a high value man people saw his advice like i think for the purpose of this
00:20:13.780debate we should we want to probably keep it as simple as possible so that it is an extremely
00:20:17.900nuanced definition i think like uh if the person is married or not should it matter i think it
00:20:22.800should be on things that we can all mutually agree like or how about we can agree that a person of
00:20:26.900high value probably has the ability to get married and have a lot of children but they might not
00:20:30.640necessarily choose not to do so that's on them and going back to the morality i think that's a
00:20:34.620fantastic point even though someone like epstein is the horrible individual on paper he had a
00:20:39.000network of high net worth people he had politicians in his pocket he had quite a bit of money um he
00:20:43.560had a skill set he probably had a vasectomy too yeah shout out to the cia right to the cia
00:20:47.340he did have a skill set and he earned a good amount of money so on paper he's a high value
00:20:53.680guy and i think that's something that we can all agree to so we can yeah fair enough okay so we'll
00:20:58.920go off of respected by peers has a skill set network of other successful people around him
00:21:03.540morality doesn't matter and we could say a hundred thousand dollars if not more and when we talk
00:21:08.360about a hundred thousand dollars we don't mean a hundred thousand dollars but we mean the ability
00:21:11.660to live in a certain way fair cost of living adjustment yeah cost of living adjustment consistently
00:21:16.540can i take can i take oh yeah you're probably gonna say that you're probably gonna say the
00:21:19.920same thing i'm gonna say go ahead okay so but he also has to be useful yes correct yeah utilities
00:21:24.080okay so competency yeah right so there's a competency there isn't so is a high value man
00:21:28.460educated well so competency again is going to be valued by society so for instance i like like i
00:21:35.840i can change the light bulb but i can't like fix the toilet so my competency in the household is
00:21:39.300going to be relatively low but as an entertainer my competency is very high that happens to be
00:21:42.540valued by society right now in another society i might just be left for dead in the woods so
00:21:46.160competencies and saying you can probably find like you can find the best hunter possible in
00:21:51.860sub-saharan africa and bring to the united states and he's not going to do shit yeah education has
00:21:56.200to be a component i think if they're like a doctor education could be a way towards competency
00:21:59.880there's lots of different ways you can go competency right okay cool so does that fair
00:22:03.060with all you guys yeah competency so one more time so just to define for the audience here
00:22:06.820when we talk about high value guy we're talking about someone that's respected by the peers
00:22:09.780has a skill set has competence has a network of other successful men that respect them and we'll
00:22:14.300say a hundred thousand dollars per year bare minimum based on living a certain way not necessarily
00:22:19.460a hundred thousand dollars per se but a hundred k per year just so you guys have a placeholder
00:22:22.840now we go into alpha male uh i mean i don't use this we don't use this term that often but i mean
00:22:28.800just for the purpose of space music a lot well that's why we're talking about high value because
00:22:32.240that's kind of what has replaced alpha male over the years like when i first started writing it
00:22:36.620was all about alpha alpha and then like right around 2017 2018 everybody started using high
00:22:41.100value so you guys want to just use hbm as is the same yeah i'm gonna fight kevin samuels made it
00:22:45.980popular for the most part so just hbm i'm probably gonna fight in particular in alpha male but that's
00:22:50.180going to be later that because he wants to do the vasectomy talk first okay well how do you want to
00:22:53.320define alpha male then so we have i don't know i'll ask them later because when yeah that's a
00:22:57.780whole line of questions okay and then uh hypergamy how do you guys want to define let me do one more
00:23:02.020real quick on the useful side of things because i had a list of other things here so it was like
00:23:06.160uh as far as being useful and educate i wanted to ask the education question the other thing is um
00:23:10.780you got to be productive obviously you've got to be at least what do i say a productive member
00:23:15.200society would that also be included in the conventional it is but all of these things are
00:23:20.000proxies for value so again i'm very productive but it's just because people like entertainment
00:23:24.160in another society i would have no production that's where the respect comes in because your
00:23:27.200productivity will align to some and then the other aspect of this is um recognition so people when
00:23:32.560they see you they understand that you are high value in some way like they go almost every human
00:23:37.280is wired for resources exactly but we're also we're also plugging that person into a hierarchy
00:23:42.720i think it depends on which hierarchy like he said exactly that's why that's the subjective
00:23:47.040thing that we're an extreme example would be like stephen hawking right who had motor neuron
00:23:50.720disorder was was was uh relegated to a wheelchair but was one of the smartest men who ever lived
00:23:55.200that would be an example of someone who's super competent but in other areas isn't competent i
00:23:58.800would consider him a high value man but but you know he couldn't walk so that's that's that's
00:24:02.240an interesting that's what the subjectivity of it all right uh cool so i guess we'll alpha male
00:24:07.760will deal for later and then hypergamy how do you guys want to define that just so we understand
00:24:11.440here because i mean it's an ever-growing term it used to be the practice of marrying up originally
00:24:16.760so how do you guys want to do okay so let me just see if i can define terms here okay so the classic
00:24:21.860understanding if you go and you look in the dictionary you go to wikipedia right now the
00:24:25.420classic understanding of of hypergamy the to the letter is uh it was a term that was used by a
00:24:32.200sociologist i want to say it was in the like 1950s and he was studying the caste system in india in
00:24:38.080india yeah and india cultures and how the tendency for women to marry from one from a lower caste to
00:24:44.040a higher caste that was based primarily on the socioeconomic status of that person and that
00:24:48.680family and everything else and that's where that's the original idea came from so it's based
00:24:54.620primarily on sort of like the provisioning protection and parental investment it's dowries
00:24:58.800it's marriage it's it's it's the formalization of like a relationship in the last i would say 20
00:25:04.600some odd years we broadened the uh the definition of hypergamy to include the alpha fucks beta buck
00:25:09.640side of things okay so there is the short-term sexual side of things because women mate up
00:25:15.200across and up as well as marry across and up and as far as the definition is concerned i've been
00:25:21.420trying to do this myself right is to expand the definition but also uh people like jordan peterson
00:25:26.680have been using that expanded definition for probably going on another five or six years
00:25:31.340right now okay so that would be that would be my definition of it can i so to boil it down will we
00:25:37.040say the practice of marrying and or dating up when it comes to the attempt the attempt so this is
00:25:42.860this is what i'm going to come from an evolutionary standpoint there is some algorithm that men
00:25:47.180homo sapien males have to where they can see a woman and be like that woman's attractive
00:25:50.280immediately it's not something that's taught to them they know immediately that woman is
00:25:54.060exactly very quickly there must be some correlating algorithm in a female psychology
00:26:00.080to determine the the men she finds attractive or would consider having sex with and the men she
00:26:04.900doesn't now that is going to be more complicated because for some for women there are so many more
00:26:09.520things what we talk about is statistics negative kurtosis there are so many more things that women
00:26:13.820are attracted to about men the book uh how why women have sex by david buss and sydney messin
00:26:18.620lists 237 reasons why women choose to have sex whereas for men it's like four so because of that
00:26:24.120that algorithm that complicated evolutionary algorithm is hypergamy that's what i would
00:26:28.420consider it it is the what the way by which women sift which one which guy i like from which guy i
00:26:33.720don't like it must exist just like it exists in men so that's the way i would i would post it
00:26:37.000all right would be fair to say it's a it's sifting up though right yes it's not sifting
00:26:40.500just sifting it's sifting up because her evolutionary imperative is to find the strongest
00:26:45.200son that she can so that strongest son is going to deal with some competency or some physicality
00:26:50.880that that man has that that she's she's choosing him for all right is that is that fair for you
00:26:55.680guys i accept the definition you accept that definition all right i agree so a quick little
00:26:59.240recap so we went over this defining the terms we went over high value men uh we say about a hundred
00:27:04.320thousand dollars when it comes to cost of living a certain way respected by your peers having a
00:27:08.240skill set network of successful individuals around you um competence and it's his amoral so even if
00:27:13.620someone like jeff epstein even though he's a terrible person he would be considered a high
00:27:17.160value man on paper just uh so that we have can you say i've seen epstein whatever epstein epstein
00:27:21.940it doesn't matter uh he's one of them boys anyway boys he's one of the boys he faked his own death
00:27:26.460he's fine uh and then uh we don't know about that i'm kidding i'm kidding hypergamy is uh
00:27:30.800allegedly the attempt to mate up or sifting up um and uh having filters for men and then alpha
00:27:37.020male will i guess that's a bridge we'll cross when we get there so i guess we'll open up the
00:27:40.400discussion here guys with obviously the infamous suite let's pull it up real quick chris we got
00:27:44.6402800 uh 28k y'all watching so like the video man we'll probably have to kill the facebook and
00:27:49.500twitter stream here very soon but uh come on over to youtube guys doesn't that get you banned off
00:27:54.060of twitter for cuck yeah twitch for cuck yeah i think so yeah uh okay guys so this is rollo's
00:27:59.960tweet so i'm gonna read it real quick for y'all uh the quickest path to becoming a high-value man
00:28:04.760number one do not get married number two avoid family creation number three vasectomy in your
00:28:09.36020s number four lift consistently number five eliminate all sedations number six learn game
00:28:15.060and networking number seven place your strengths and build wealth and then number eight resist
00:28:19.840easing up on your focus um so i guess i'll turn it to um world do you want to sure okay so i think
00:28:28.060we have already established the fact that uh to be a high value man we have that sort of a convention
00:28:32.720at least somewhat of a conventional definition of that right now now how long would it take the
00:28:38.200average guy to achieve what we would in some way say this is what makes you a high value guy the
00:28:44.340I mean, it doesn't have to be the $120,000, but like the functional evaluated equivalent of that.
00:28:51.160I think it takes longer for men to reach maturity and to reach a point of where they can maximize their potential.
00:28:59.560Well, let's stick to the science because that's what he wanted.
00:29:01.760Number one, we had Richard Reeves on and he talked about boys being one or two years behind women as far as development is concerned.
00:29:08.420And also from the book Dataclysm, men reaching their peak, their sexual peak around or attractiveness peak around the age of 38 to 43, somewhere in that area.
00:29:17.680Yeah. So that's what that's that's science behind what you're saying. It would take longer for men.
00:29:20.820So but my point being is this, is that and I'll reiterate this one more time.
00:29:25.040The reason why I put this out there is because I watched you guys with Derek Moneyberg and I think it was Brandon Carter who was on here.
00:29:31.480And Brandon Carter of I'm really impressed with Brandon Carter. I think he's funny. He's a great guy.
00:29:36.480But his sort of outlook on life is to maximize his efficiency, his potential.
00:29:42.360So it's he doesn't go to the grocery store.
00:31:51.780You need to have freedom, you know, and all these things.
00:31:54.180So lucky we're moderating. Yeah, it seems like it feels like it feels like, yeah, the goal initially wasn't to like be the richest motherfucker in the world. The goal was to have the freedom to basically do what you want. And then I think the confusing part is it feels like there's this kind of schism happening right now, or it's already started to happen in the red pill community. We've got like the kind of trad people that are going in one direction. And then you've got like the grind set hustle culture that are going in the other direction. And it feels like the lightning point for this was your tweet, where it was like, okay, we're gonna make it clear.
00:32:23.880where we stand now get a fucking vasectomy fuck family and do this shit and i think that it feels
00:32:28.900like the ultimate red pillar to you guys is what this is feeling i have the ultimate red pillar is
00:32:32.740a guy that grinds his fucking life away and then at 35 he's like got fucking 15 million in the bank
00:32:37.880he's fucked 50 girls and now he's looking for like the best mom that he can find who's like 20 21
00:32:42.480years old he's going to get with that girl zero one body count at the most maybe one zero at the
00:32:46.740best right virgin girl gets with her has a family and then boom that's like his life whereas it
00:32:51.120feels like on the kind of traditional side it's like well what if you were like 24 and found a
00:32:57.040really good woman at 22 and then you had a family at 25 and you followed your career she stayed at
00:33:02.380home took care of the kids and you follow that more traditional route and your tweet i think
00:33:05.780really showed the division of people in terms of how they felt about which of the two lifestyles
00:33:09.700people were actually going for you got it yeah excellent and sneaker can yeah so so what do you
00:33:14.500exactly do you believe in like do you think that that is the life that you should follow because
00:33:18.000when you go to the red pill spaces that's pretty much the end route is because you're high value
00:33:22.700you got a bunch of Lamborghinis you're extremely rich and we talk about competence when it comes
00:33:26.760to a high value man I got I didn't have a rich dad growing up and that didn't really
00:33:31.440hinder his his competence and in fact in a lot of ways being a father will help you become more
00:33:35.580competent because other people are dependent and you're responsible for them so that will
00:33:39.280make you become a full capable man which is I think the most important part of life it's
00:33:44.920the most important part of life is not having a bunch of hoes not fucking 50 girls or getting
00:33:49.460the most amount of money possible just hustle grinding forever the most the reason that we
00:33:53.780are here is to have a family is to create and so you see the red pill and it's a response to
00:33:58.080feminism you see the this doomer way like like all these girls are hoes all these girls on
00:34:02.580instagram they're all thoughts whatever they all belong to the streets and so the reaction to that
00:34:05.920is the red pill which is basically feminist just male feminism it's the same response we make fun
00:34:10.300of girls who say that they want to freeze their eggs and wait till they're 35 and then men are
00:34:13.500giving the same advice to each other saying and i know you're not saying that's advice but pretty
00:34:16.360much like if you look at the definition of advice that's what that's we was yeah so so i think
00:34:19.540there's there's two things here we we specifically don't run around calling girls three or fours
00:34:24.200and like i i actually have a problem with it because i hear you sometimes talk about the
00:34:28.020audience there we have to separate the audience almost like christ christianity and the church
00:34:32.400we have to separate the audience because i agree with you there's some shit that i see that people
00:34:36.360write on your streams as well where i'm like what the fuck is this man this is crazy and i don't
00:34:40.740want to be associated with it red pill is not and again i'm red pill adjacent red pill is not
00:34:45.720something i get a union card for that i pay dues for it's a it's an ethereal thing that just sort
00:34:49.900of exists like he calls it a praxeology so the the idea that like one of the things that's happened
00:34:54.220is every time because he you know he calls himself the godfather of it when somebody does
00:34:58.460some stupid shit in the in the arena then it's his fault and then that then now we're going to
00:35:02.860punch his book because now the thing is this doesn't it's just it's just a cloud but then
00:35:07.000there's a book okay now let's now now we have a physical thing to attack and now rollo has a tweet
00:35:11.400now we have a physical thing to attack and so that's part of the issue is that like now he's
00:35:15.680being held accountable for every and i agree with you some of the things you hear are fucking idiotic
00:35:19.780over the top yeah right because here's an example when we when we go over the psychological studies
00:35:24.220that show that men don't have the same they don't necessarily cheat more because they have more body
00:35:28.420higher body count but women do they tend to be unhappy in a relationship there's the uh institute
00:35:32.620for family studies study that we refer to all the time that's not a validation for cheating we're not
00:35:39.660suggesting men cheat you did you said that in the in the response thing that we i definitely do not
00:35:44.540think men should cheat because in that in that whole situation you're still lying that is a lack
00:35:48.620of integrity regardless but do men have the ability to have more sexual partners early on
00:35:54.060in life i was 20 years old i'm 45 now i was 20 years old at once and there was a point in my
00:35:57.980life where i was going to ut austin and i wanted to have sex with attractive women and i didn't
00:36:01.820think about anything else except doing that that's how my my brain worked and later on did it affect
00:36:06.780me negatively i don't think it did i just don't think it had the same thing so i don't think it's
00:36:09.820a rationale for that belief but the thing is what what happens is anytime something bad happens or
00:36:14.300somebody says something stupid it just comes back it's like now all red pillars are saying this all
00:36:18.300the time and i just don't agree with that i understand what you're saying here so first
00:36:21.500let me clarify one thing so i understand we define the red pill no i don't think that's
00:36:26.300So I think the issue with Rollo's tweet, because for a lot of people, it looks like advice.
00:36:33.220And for Rollo, he feels like it wasn't advice.
00:36:35.800I think the reality was the disconnect is that that tweet was advice, but it was for
00:36:40.540advice to become a certain type of high value man that Rollo isn't saying everybody needs
00:50:49.300So then the vasectomy thing doesn't make any sense.
00:50:51.060And also I would depend on the age too.
00:50:52.680I think it was hyperbole why he's saying that.
00:50:54.660I think I think it's like you're both in your early 20s and you're like, I don't think I want to have kids from 35.
00:50:59.700That's a tough sell for a lot of women.
00:51:01.720Unless you date someone who's younger.
00:51:03.380Sneak, if there was if there was a male form of birth control, like Vasagel or something like that, and instead of saying vasectomy, and I said, do this and take this.
01:12:40.340focus on the big battles sending with statistics right um it's uh what is it statistics don't lie
01:12:45.060but liars do statistics you can arguably use statistics to tell almost any kind of story you
01:12:49.060want depending on how you massage your numbers and depending on what side you um present but it's our
01:12:53.060choice to choose what we want to present to the people which is what we tell them to do um also
01:12:57.300one thing i would say on the marriage stuff um because i hear this a lot i don't know how many
01:13:00.260of you guys talk about this or get into this a lot you have to be really careful with the um live
01:13:04.180with the woman but never get married one because some states have something called common law
01:13:07.460law marriage yes i hope most of you guys are familiar with right so you might not think you're
01:13:10.880married i don't believe has it but yes yeah yeah i think texas no texas does i'm sorry
01:13:14.820be very careful with that because you might find you're getting a divorce notice from a woman you
01:13:19.540never agreed to marry so one be careful with the common law thing and then two i do believe that
01:13:23.920one of the reasons we don't have to get too deep into the divorce stuff because i might come later
01:13:26.700but one of the reasons women probably want some sort of like formal contract is because you know
01:13:30.680while there might be some love and children all of that there is also money and career being left
01:13:34.380on the table too, depending on the arrangement. If you're telling a woman like, Hey, um, we're
01:13:38.160going to fuck, we're going to have kids and I love you. And I love that. And I love our family.
01:13:41.220You're going to stay here and take care of the kids while I go. And I continue my career.
01:13:43.880When we split, if we get divorced in 10 years, I didn't lose shit financially. Um, because I'm,
01:13:49.420I'm, my career has been fine. I've been working the entire time. And now you're stuck being a
01:13:52.480full-time caregiver. You might've given up your career to do it. So I think it's reasonable for
01:13:56.220the woman to say much the same that a man might say, I want a prenup, you know, just cause we
01:13:59.460get divorced and you're taking half my shit. The woman could also be like, okay, I understand that.
01:14:02.480But if we end up getting divorced and I'm throwing away a decade of my life to take care of your fucking children, our children, I want some kind of financial assurance.
01:14:09.140And you're aware that certain prenups are thrown out exactly for the reason.
01:14:11.980Depending on how egregious they are or the state of the people writing them or both sides had representation.
01:14:16.280There's a lot of right. Yeah. Some some prenups do get thrown out, but not all of them right now.
01:14:20.320OK, real quick. This has been great. I'm going to read some of these chats real quick and we're going to kill the Facebook and the Twitter stream.
01:14:25.580So, guys, come on over to YouTube right now. Like the video on YouTube. Subscribe to the channel.
01:14:28.860And also, all the guys' links are below.